ArcT
ArcT
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@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103537#Comment_4103537
this right here.
Bhvr themselves admitted survivor was getting the short end of the stick and then scrapped everything. I love how “50/50” killer mains just ignore how much survivors have lost because it doesn’t fit their narrative.
Atleast i can say i’m an actual 50/50 player. I don’t try to use that as a shield to cover my bias to one side.
You have to love how so many of the "I play both sides, my opinion is objective fact" crowd reacts to survivors getting a new anything. "This doesn't benefit me at all! Where's my equal attention cake!?"
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@jesterkind said:
Everything that wasn't in that one specific update stayed, yeah. Map and Keys rework, Fog Vials existing, the Myers rework, changes to survivor spawns, the FOV slider, and I want to say visible teamwork perks and customisable auras were on that roadmap too? That's just off the top of my head, I'm definitely forgetting a bunch.
It's important to remember that initiative wasn't just the anti-tunnel and anti-slug. I can sympathise with wanting more changes to those things, I feel the same way myself, but that is its own conversation.
For the record though they're actually bringing something back from those PTBs alongside lowering the anti-tunnel duration, so that's something. It remains to be seen how that tradeoff shakes out.
Most of what you've listed here either predates or was unrelated to their stated QOL intiative.
https://deadbydaylight.com/news/quality-of-life-initiative-2025-phase-1/
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It's little more than hypocritical gaslighting anyway. If you have an opinion that's positive for survivors, you're biased and emotional. You can't be taken seriously. You just want to oppress those poor killers because you feel bad and want easy wins. Play better, scrub. You're just BIASED. If you have an opinion that's positive for killers, you're a bold truth teller stating an objective fact. It's virtuous and laudable. You're standing up for the underdog.
It's the same as whenever they chide us vs them things. Is it pro-survivor? Stop with all this us vs them. You're dividing the community. Is it pro-killer? *crickets*
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@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102804#Comment_4102804
Who trusts Nightlight to be a reliable metric?
I would say that the cumbersome sumbitting system doesn't allow for a large enough sample size to be accurate enough, and since the submitting is manual, results can be cherry-picked into giving false results.
Here is an example from the official stat tracker. I am currently doing a challenge, playing a killer that I have never before played, and trying to see how well I can perform over 30 days with said killer.
As of now, I am sitting at 64%. Granted, I have not played that much, but I am still above the average (for now), with a killer that is regarded as very bugged and not particularly good.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FQ7BSLU441YQ/hm-challenge.png
This just shows how unreliable all the stat trackers are and how their data makes no sense even internally. You have 15 iri Devout emblems out of 16 matches. Iri Devout is 4 kills. There is no other way to reach it (2 points per kill, 1 for hooking all once, 1 for 9 hooks in total). That's 60 kills. Nightlight claims you only had 41. Even if the final match was 0k, which seems unlikely because you had iri in every other category, it's still undercounting kills by at least 19 out 64 possible total.
It's miscounting DCs/abandons as escapes. Its data doesn't even make sense internally, and should not be used for literally anything.
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@Memesis said:
Just addressing heal and gen speed here, but you can't just slap more time on those actions. If you play survivor you would know how monotonous it is to just sit there and watch a long bar fill only to be regressed back by pain res. There needs to be some dynamic change in-match to speeds depending on other factors. I really wish they would implement catch up mechanics for both sides
This is his like 8th thread in the last two weeks that's just "giga-buff all killers, giga-nerf all survivors."
It feels like he's doing it for sport at this point.
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All perks mentioned above are disabled when:→ Unhooked survivor is fully healed→ Unhooked survivor resists a hitWalk me through this. I'm the giga tunneller that everyone hates. I load into the match with the intent to instantly tunnel someout of the game at 5 gens. I am going to get my first hook, stand 16.1m away and stare at it. If I can prevent the unhook, I will. If not, I will hit them the second their feet touch the ground.
So I hit them the second their feet touch the ground. They have now resisted a hit. Because they resisted a hit, they have now lost all anti-tunnel protections, including for some reason, Decisive Strike. Which is fully intended, you say, because they could've been WEAPONIZING those anti-tunnel protections. Decisive Strike only works if they're downed without taking a hit, so I guess grabs and locker pulls only.
This will make antitunnel more punishing for hard tunneling killers with option to get away but remove the weaponizing aspect.By taking a hit just after being unhooked. Every single perk intended to help someone after being unhooked in your scenario has been disabled. This is worse and more punishing for me, the giga tunneller, how exactly?
Your supposed 'buffs' only exist for the situations where the survivor is not being tunnelled in the first place, and you want not just baseline giga nerfs in compensation, but buffs to tunnelling on top of it.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102468#Comment_4102468
This has been my experience, too. It's a complete flip on what it used to be when I started. On average, we had much shorter Killer wait times just a few years ago.
I have a theory that Survivors who've played a lot eventually reach a breaking point and crash out entirely or they convert into Killer mains, accounting for the potential shortage of Survivor players. It's only a theory, I don't actually know if there's a lack of Survivors, it's just what happened to me and I think I'm probably not the only one. Survivor is just for Killing time between Killer matches for me these days because I can't hack it otherwise.
The overwhelming strength of every new Killer vs the average lobby and things like the upcoming Sprint Burst nerf probably won't be improving the Survivor experience anytime soon. I can only see this getting worse. The SB nerf alone would be something that would tip my over the edge if I hadn't already thrown in the towel on Survivor.
It really just shows the abject failure of play as you wait. Killers would rather tab out or AFK on the loading screen than play a single match of survivor.
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Your suggestion to make anti-tunnel more 'punishing' is to make all of it be completely disabled when… the survivor is tunneled. And in exchange, make endgame rescues completely impossible.
You put a lot of thought into this?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102191#Comment_4102191
Not listening to complaints and acting on the complaints poorly are radically different criticisms, they're not interchangeable.
I was only speaking on one of them, because right now I would prefer to see some of the exact numbers + see it all in action before I comment on the other. I could very easily see some of this be pretty impactful, but it depends on a few variables.
You seem pretty hyperfixated on a binary situation of "they made an effort" ignoring that it was a token effort, which is the entire problem.
Furthermore, I don't think they are listening to survivor complaints. They're certainly not acting on them. Which is how we arrived at this situation where anti-tunnel was gutted for people who proxy camp. This is the killer approved anti-tunnel, one that when they decide they want to tunnel, does not work, and is worse than the previous anti-tunnel. This is not the anti-tunnel that survivors want or asked for. This is precisely the kind of anti-tunnel that killers asked for and want, the kind that is completely ineffective when they decide they want to ignore it.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102124#Comment_4102124
Its probably the healthiest approach they could make. Ideally they provide an anti-tunnel that ISNT just used offensively against ppl who arnt tunneling. Something like elusive provides just that.
It's not the healthiest approach. Not even close. It incentivizes camping, does nothing whatever to hinder camping, and then BUFFS tunnelling when camping does happen because there's far less protection.
If they wanted a healthy approach, they wouldn't need any anti-tunnel protections at all. They would do what literally every other multiplayer game does and provide a safe respawn. You don't respawn in Overwatch or COD in the spot you died, in the middle of the enemy team. The opponent doesn't get to choose whether or not you get to continue playing the round or if you're simply done 60 seconds in after one hook. This is something they already figured out and implemented in 2v8. And yeah, it wouldn't work directly in 1v4, but you could add a mandatory 45 second clock, or void-area minigame before the hook respawns, or any number of things. Then you wouldn't need all these asinine anti-camp and anti-tunnel band-aids and you could get rid of all of them.
Additionally, you could incentivize and promote moving away from the hook by opening a portal to 24m of a gen of the killer's choice after each hook. Take it within 15 seconds or lose it. Now every killer has mobility and the ones that had it baseline barely benefit.
But so many of the unhealthy mecahnics benefit killers exclusively, and because they refuse to make changes that killers don't endorse, they're never going to actually address them. They're going to keep making these token bare minimum changes that don't address the actual problems just so they can check off "we technically did something for survivors" each time. Because every microscopic nerf to any single killer must be paired with a substantative baseline survivor nerf, and every niche unhealthy killer perk that gets the slightest lovetap must be 'balanced' by nuking multiple survivor meta perks.
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There's every reason to believe that the Elusive change is going to be rescinded in a couple months as well just like every other token anti-tunnel change has been. If it even makes it to live at all.
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@Flopkween said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101715#Comment_4101715
So many other perks are great in a swf but that doesn't mean the perk itself is a problem. The perk only activates after getting a safe unhook meaning the survivor actually has to work for it to get the effect and can be wasted if hooked first. The perk has a fine risk vs reward factor that makes it balanced.
Most people don't make it to endgame with this perk active and if you do I think that's a fine reward for basically playing with 3 perks the entire game. Arguably the killer should have at least hooked everyone at least 1 before endgame. If they can't do that then that's on them. This just unnecessarily hand holds killers who don't deserve the kill at all.
I also don't believe that this perk is suddenly meta or problematic even though it's been in the game for many years without issue even with the introduction of endgame and the basekit anti tunneling changes.
In my opinion this perk is fine and has been fine all this time. No need for it to be changed at all.
Same song and dance as always. You have to balance survivors around what they could THEORETICALLY do with the maximum amount of coordination, clock callouts, and perfect play. But you can't balance killers around winstreaks. Those are people who are just good at the game and is unrealistic to expect people to play at that level, aside from the hundreds of CCs who do.
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@cogsturning said:
I think it's bs. Elusive will only do so much. Tunneling killers will just proxy camp harder so they don't loose LoS. From the bits and pieces I've heard about the stream it seems like a lot of survivor meta nerfs and the BT nerf as well, but stacking 4 slowdowns is untouched, and some niche killer builds were lightly nerfed. There's still nothing basekit to help solo. No anti-tunnel, slug, or camp. No ping system or chat wheel.
I haven't touched soloq in over a month. My survivor matches are lower than they've been in a year and they're really not reversing my course with this.
Has there been a single update in the last three years to actually improve the survivor experience? Even abandon is meant more to mitigate toxic pissbabies and get the survivors back into queues faster because they're starved as #########. They just keep tweaking off-hook BT and nerfing the ######### out of anti-tunnel and anti-slug perks while killers shriek hysterically that those existing at all is oppressing them.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101710#Comment_4101710
Its been kind of wild seeing 6 second survivor queues even at 10pm. I guess they no longer care about the experience if they can just lean on play while you wait to make up for no one wanting to play survivor?
The queues still being what they are means that ain't working.
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We saw the complaints about camping and tunnelling, so we buffed anti-tunnel, but only if you don't camp, in which case it's easier to tunnel. Problem solved.
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Only like five perks have been touched since last November.
They ain't doing jack.
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Six hour video.
Jump to random spot:
Buff to Rookie Spirit: Repair regressing generators 200% faster, when generator is no longer regressing, deactive perk for 10s.
You think this helps? You think this fixes the perk? You think worse gen tapping is something that anybody is going to run?
Let's check another.
Buff to Hoarder: For each unopened chest, survivors open exit gates 10 seconds slower, up to 60 seconds. All chest auras are revealed when gates are powered. Congratulations. You've reinvented a second version of that already super meta perk Remember Me, which famously has never caused any issues when paired with other exit gate perks.
This is just an idiot randomly brainstorming with nothing but his dumbass chat egging his terrible ideas on. They would be changes, yes, but would fix nothing and the perks would still be untouched except for fringe extremely unhealthy scenarios.
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Of course they saw all the problems and complaints, and then tunnel visioned on the one thing that would make everything worse and decided to implement that without a second thought for the reprecussions.
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The elephant in the room with this is that if you did this, kill rates would CRASH. Endgame extremely heavily favors killer right now with how difficult saves are without comms and how easy it is to snowball. Botched saves can very frequently turn 0Ks in 2-3ks. Plus, it's one of the gameplay instances that actually encourages and incentivizes risk taking and interacting with the killer for survivor, which is a generally positive thing for gameplay. Which is also why most survivors outside of comp settings will do the 'stupid' thing and try to go for the save. People want actual gameplay and interaction, not the most boring path to min/maxing their 'score'.
Even if you restricted it to only if nobody's downed/hooked, that'd still allow someone currently chasing a survivor who'd inevitably be caught to abandon where otherwise they'd be hooked and lead to that gamestate. Plus, encourage them to not guard the hook in order to abandon faster. Perhaps it would be a net positive thing to remove the token 'pity' kill from stats, but it would be essentially removing the endgame whenever the killer FEELS like they're losing, whether or not they actually were, or if they would have turned it around off a survivor mistake. This would also have the knock-on effect of obliterating all killer endgame perks, because why bother with them? If you're losing, you don't need a comeback perk like NOED or a stall perk like NWO. Just leave.
The entirety of endgame needs to be completely rethought and reworked in any case, a drum I've beaten on a lot. Abandon for either side is a band-aid for unhealthy mechanics and design problems that a responsible developer would have quashed years ago, not encouraged and enshrined.
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Most of the strong killers are strong because their powers or preferred playstyle don't allow a wide array of survivor perks or skill expression. Or even resources in the case of Nurse. Or the skill expression needed is coordination, which isn't reasonable for solo players. The mobility to disrupt at a distance but still tunnel being the most obvious. Camping as well, especially with killers who can invalidate unhook protections.
Weaker killers are mostly weaker because they allow counter play. Because their mistakes, or outplaying them matters. But strength vs skill expression is still not 1:1. Almost every survivor would rather play against a hundred (non-slugging) Billies than even a few EndFury Bubbas. Counterplay existing is not sufficient if it still doesn't allow actual agency and decision making. To say nothing of grotesquely idiotic stuff like Blood Favor on any killer that counters making distance like Blight and Ghoul. You just go lose the chase immediately with no recourse.
BHVR is probably never going to grapple with the meta being to do as much as possible to remove game mechanics and skill expression. It's a legitimate issue on the survivor side too (eg extreme gen rushing), but requires much more skill and coordination, so is much rarer.
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@Firellius said:
The goal is not to make one side stronger by default.
Could've damn well fooled me.
You're giving killers hooks that survivor need to respond to faster, but you're also reducing their ability to respond by reinstating hook-grabs. This is a double buff to camping, as it takes less time to camp and is harder to counter.
Then your hook-spread incentive is to kick survivors in the teeth for not dying and slapping them with gens that would take ONE-HUNDRED-AND-THIRTY-TWO seconds, along with a colossal regression buff. Ideal scenario is to tunnel one or two to death hook and tunnel them out the instant this kicks in so you get to tunnel and benefit from the 'you did not tunnel' award.
Then you also make it so that any survivor that's been injured six times becomes perma-broken. Pretty random buff, but okay.
Then you're also adding an extra timer to EGC, AND shortening the timer if the killer opens the gate, which I think can make it physically impossible to open a gate in time with certain strategies. (Trap + No Way Out + Remember Me. No Way Out might actually be able to do it by itself though.)
Then there's a random drive-by nerf to boons, which haven't seen relevance since CoH copped its umpteenth nerf.
And a nerf to unhook protection in end-game.
And in exchange, you offer the side that is currently weaker:
When there's only two survivors left and one is downed, that person can get up by themselves. (Basically means the killer is less likely to stall out a loss for survivors)
When the hatch spawns, survivors can get a key.
So there's multiple, huge swings in favour of the killers' winrate, but survivors' losses are made a little less annoying. How do you see this match with:
The goal is not to make one side stronger by default.
Because these two things do not rhyme, not even remotely.
I'd actually argue that giving basekit unbreakable in 2v1 makes it MORE likely killers will stall out the match, and would stall it out for longer. Why would they not leave the injured one on the ground and keep searching as before? Still prevents the hatch from spawning, and they have a general idea where a survivor is, plus the knowledge that they're injured and so easier to track and find, while also unless there's only one gen left that's at like 80%, not threatening to make the killer lose. Even moreso if the other survivor is healthy, as waiting to kill one until both are injured makes it easier to find the other and limits how much distance they can cover when chased. Or sit on top of/W-S them until they can get an abandon and let a bot take over who they don't care if the bot finds the hatch or escapes, or wait for the bleedout if the survivor goes fully AFK.
Basekit Unbreakable in the 2v1 has never been a solution to the fundamental issues with the hatch. All it would end up doing is putting BOTH survivors into the ######### hiding/slugged loop as the killer ping pongs between them until one abandons.
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@cogsturning said:
You want gens to slowdown if the killer has 5 hooks at 2 gens? Five hooks is two people on death hook and one with one hook. Why do they get that, exactly? That's the game progressing normally. And going by charges instead of completed gens means there could be zero gens done with all gens having some progress. Why on earth should survivors get a debuff with no gens completed?
Giving killers the BBQ BP bonus back is fine but why take BP for unhooking away from survivors? It's just BP. It doesn't hurt anything.
Hook grabs should never come back unless we also change it so a survivor being in the anti-camp range doesn't make the bar stop progressing. If the killer wants to stand behind you and wait for you to unhook so they can grab you, the meter should keep progressing.
Nerfing boons, which are already painfully mid, is a wild thing to want.
Your idea of making the game "more interesting" seems to be making killers get at least a 3k by default unless they are abysmally bad at the game. I'd never play survivor again if the game looked like this, especially since you have punishments for survivors just for touching gens and not a single bit of anti-cheese for killers. It's just a bunch of survivor nerfs with a bigger chance of one person getting out.
Every time a self-declared killer-main posts their laundry list for 'game health' changes, it's always like:
For Killer:
Nerf gens
Nerf healing
Nerf exhaustion
Buff camping
Buff tunnelling
Buff endgame
Buff sluggingFor Survivor:
Add tooltips
Watch tutorials
5% more BP
1m anti-camp radius increase"I think I'm being impartial and these would be good and fair changes on both sides."
Almost every suggestion here is a massive baseline killer buff, while the beneficial changes for survivors are limited to lost games/the hatch only.
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@Wyndsor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099079#Comment_4099079
I guess that confirms there is no midchapter (and subsequently no balance changes) until the Fall?
Aren't we optimistic that there'll be one at all.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098834#Comment_4098834
Those are fairly even changes. The perks would still provide massive advantage but won't be completely free. While I think that current killer meta is quite good, there is no perk you have for free.
No perk for free, huh? Corrupt, Lethal, Deadlock, Bamboozle, Enduring, Brutal, Ruin, Undying, so on, is not even an exhaustive list. And if we're saying that things like Overcome, Background Player, and Head On are 'free' because they have no activation condition, you've rendered the definition meaningless. If Background Player doesn't have an activation condition, then neither does Agitation or Thrilling. If Overcome doesn't, then neither does Rapid Brutality or STBFL.
Be at least slightly serious.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098734#Comment_4098734
That'd also encourage more camping. Don't get me wrong I think it's a great start but I think your idea of the 2v8 teleport works better if the survivor can choose to teleport instead of getting forced by the killer.
Alternatively, or additionally, you can also move the killer away from the hook. This is another soft pressure point in old DBD that BHVR removed. The two meta gen defense perks years ago were Pop and Ruin. Pop required the killer to move to a gen to get value from it. A quick pull could be strategic, forcing the killer to forego Pop, or commit to it. Either way, the killer has move away to get value. Likewise, defending Ruin typically required moving away from the hook if you wanted to defend it since you don't usually want to hook near hexes to reveal their location.
Contrast that with Pain Res, Deadlock, and Grim. They just work on hooks, period. There's no incentive to actually leave the hook. Pain Res goes across the entire map. Grim doesn't turn off if you turn straight back to the hook, and in fact, when survivors have literally nothing else to do because they're all blocked, all the more reason to do so. No reason to go past just outside the anti-camp range so you can interrupt unhooks for an easy skill-devoid double tap on the rescuer, AND a tunnel on top.
You could also use this to address mobility issues for killers without mobility. Open a portal for 20 seconds after a hook that allows a killer to teleport to one of five cardinal spots on the map (eg N/S/W/E, center),. The fog rolls in or whatever. Now killers without innate mobility have map presence, survivors can't automatically pre-run to the opposite direction of the hook since they don't necessarily know directionality, etc. Just disable RMB powers for like 10 seconds to prevent potential Blight/Spirit/Wesker insta-rush issues. The ability to camp and tunnel isn't removed, but a huge carrot has been added that simultaneously removes a ton of the opportunity to do so that makes it so obvious and brainless to do so.
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@esarraf said:
Pretty sure we can look up multiple threads and find killers talking about how they will tunnel no matter what happens since it's not their job to care about the enjoyment of others. The only way to solve tunneling is actively punishing it. A good start would be giving unhooked survivors 15 seconds of elusive and the new invincibility effect (with the bugs of some killers m2 bypassing it fixed) instead of deep wounds.
You don't even need to necessarily punish it. You could start by removing the notification alerting killers "HEY, HERE'S WHERE TWO SURVIVORS ARE AND ONE IS INJURED." There's also no reason killers should be able to see the aura of a hooked survivor. Removing both those would even add a level of skill and game awareness that would allow more skill expression.
But a more extreme version would be to simply move the survivor away when hooked like 2v8 does. Remove opportunity, and you can also then remove most, if not all of the anti-tunnel protections that killers hate so much. Slap on a mandatory 45 seconds in the fog before respawning with something like Pinhead box logic (ie attempted distance from all players) to prevent instant unhooks and tunnelling becomes basically unfeasable, with even the opportunity to provide some pretty significant post-hook buffs to get the killer moving around the map again. Obviously, some special carveouts would be wanted for stuff like endgame, basement, or territorial killers, or rework all those things entirely because absolutely nobody likes them and their current implementations don't promote fun or engaging gameplay, but it'd easily solve camping/tunnelling without any disincentives or punishments necessary.
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@CosmicScarab said:
Outright buffing killers doesn't change that tunnelling is still stronger. There needs to be incentives that make unique hooks while all survivors are alive stronger than not tunnelling.
As long as removing one survivor from the game gives a 33% reduced efficiency to basically everything they do and unique hooks give only downsides, tunnelling will always be the better option.It's way more than 33% reduced efficiency.
At 4 survivors, it's 1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor being chased/hiding, 1 survivor rescuing, 1 survivor on gens.
At 3 survivors, it's 1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor being pursued (chased/hiding), 1 survivor rescuing, 0 survivors on gens.
This is why gens fly at the start, and then crash at the end, and why perks that just automatically trigger remote regression like Pain Res are so string in 3v1. Tunnelling cuts generator progress by 100% unless survivors start cutting back on time resetting or have particularly long chases.
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@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
Personally I dislike it when someone or myself tunnels anyone 99% of the time, but we cannot truthfully discredit the reasons behind it. I believe I can speak for many when I say that the "90 second generator" is a profound lie. Sure if a survivor w/ 0 perks, tools, add ons, etc were to individually do a generator and hit 0 Great skill check - it would take 90 seconds, but often times - 2 or 3 generators can be done within the first 2 and a half minutes of a match (this is well documented), and in rare cases - all 5 generators can be done in sub 4 minutes.
Tunneling is often done B/C killers know that generators can be done ridiculously fast, and gen rushing is often done b/c killers tunneling out 1 survivor can screw over the survivors. Its a lose-lose situation.
Call me crazy or absurd BUT if the generator progression that tool kits add were to be nerfed, or killers to be ironically buffed, killers would not feel overwhelmingly pressured to tunnel as much.
Doing that would just make tunnelling stronger, and as people keep saying, their attitude is to win at all costs. Why would they do a 180 if you make tunnelling an even stronger strategy? Do you think it makes sense to apply the same logic to generators? If you cut gen time by 25%, do you think survivors would stop doing focusing on gens? Plus, we see both killers who are overwhelmingly powerful and we've had metas where regression was out of control (CoB/Eruption, or the like 4 months of bugged Merciless). In neither case was tunnelling lessened at all.
You cannot just feed people generic incentives that they get no matter what in the hope that'll somehow change their behavior. It needs to specifically incentivize the behavior you want to see without also benefitting the actions you're trying to steer people away from. Even soft pressure, such as BP from old BBQ, or the previous grade/emblem system that would ding and derank you for a 5 hook 4k applied SOME pressure, but BHVR has been systematically removing all that.
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Fun fact. The match doesn't start until the killer's client starts the match, regardless of survivor clients. Not allowing killers like Dredge/Onryo to use their powers immediately is at least partially a bandaid to address that. You can already see it with perks like Corrupt, that don't activate until all clients have reported that they've loaded in, which can take a few seconds, allowing survivors to get on a nearby gen before being kicked off, or even an entire minute or two when a survivor has lagged out during loading.
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You seem to have a lot of rules about how other people are allowed to play. I thought you self-professed killer mains hated that.
Are you similarly baffled that perks like Pain Res and Grim Embrace are used when tunnelling? They give a benefit for spreading hooks. Why would a killer use them to tunnel!? (Because they're exponentially stronger in 3v1).
Are you upset when Wraiths use Turn Back the Clock or Dissolution with the Serpent addon? That's not how it's supposed to be used. Why would they do that!?
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098498#Comment_4098498
If you are not biased it's very clear they prioritize killer fun. In any other game, literally tunneling someone out of the game at 5 gens preventing them from participating would be considered grieving and game bannable.
I don't think it's entirely true that they prioritize killer fun. If that was the case, there's a LOT of low hanging fruit that they could be doing. They have the same very simplistic approach that "winning = fun", which is unfortunately shared with a lot of the playerbase, especially killer CCs. If a killer isn't overwhelmingly strong, then they're not worth playing. And lately, they can't just be strong, they have to be strong immediately. Right out of the gate. With little or no learning curve. If you can't pick them up and immediately win, they're not worth playing, and ergo, not fun.
This leads to little focus on aesthetics, how they feel to play, and especially how they feel to play against, which are all problems. If you're playing a killer because you like their power, how they play, or just because you're a fan of their franchise, but they're not high tier, the dialogue from other killer players is that your favorite is not worth playing, you should expect to lose, and feel bad. It's far worse than maining low tiers in stuff like MOBAs or hero shooters, even though you can expect to get flamed by teammates. And certainly no comraderie like the unhinged fighting game Potemkin or Zangief stans. There's no support network at all, just a community telling you to be madder and madder, and more abusive to other people in retaliation. This is exacerbated by BHVR's godawful (lack of) updates and leaving massive bugs that cripple killers for years, making them frustrating and worse to play.
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Something that BHVR is probably never going to grapple with is that most of the strong killers are strong because they remove skill expression from the other side, either directly by removing mechanics (Nurse-Pallets, Blight/Ghoul making distance, etc) or indirectly by being extremely good at tunnelling/slugging/camping. If you're not given the opportunity to reset and have to start the chase with the killer on your ass and in deep wound, even a good looper is going to go down much faster than a poor looper who starts in a better position. It also removes that survivor's ability to use healing perks, medkits, toolboxes, etc.
That's an 'issue' with a lot low tier killers. They allow survivor skill expression, both in being able to actually counter them intuitively and without a ton of coordination, and in their mistakes mattering, which especially recent killers get to be far spammier, and so their mistakes matter very little. But strength does not entirely correlate to fun or engaging gameplay. I'm fairly certain almost all survivors would rather go against a hundred (non-slugging) Billies than any EndFury Bubbas simply because the gameplay and decision making in the latter's case is totally braindead and allows little to no skill expression. Or Blood Favor, which prevents looping, with Blight/Ghoul who you can't make distance from after a hit. There's no actual gameplay or decision making there on either side.
It's a legitimate issue on the other side too. Actual gen rushing is moronic and allows no counter play. It just requires far more coordination and skill, so is much rarer. The kind of thing that a game health update would work to address. Too bad DBD never had one of those.
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@vol4r said:
I watched Refined video and he said: "You are supposed to be power role, killer is supposed to be power role and surviviors should be scared of you"
And he says things like people have second chance perks, surviviors have friends who can help…
So to me as someone who doesn't experience such things it seems like he really would like games to be a easy stomps so killers could feel like a real power role.
How I understand this from his video, this killer anxiety happens because surviviors are being too strong, having second chances is too strong, having teammates is too strong.
How he explains this makes me think like devs should make the game easier for killers so people wouldn't feel the "killer anxiety".
I just hope this isn't the case and some sneaky way to make killer role stronger.Anybody who uses the term "power role" is not making a serious argument and has not actually thought through what this means. They are advocating for removing all skill expression entirely. It doesn't matter if you're outplayed, you're the "power role." It shouldn't matter if you picked nonsensical perks or made bad decisions, you're the "power role." It shouldn't matter if you're fumbling around blindly while up against vastly more experienced players, you're the "power role." They want skill expression, knowledge, and experience to not matter on the survivor side at all. The killer should win, not just as the default, but inevitably.
And I agree that it's almost entirely an ego thing. Killer players aren't special. Tanks in MOBAs, healers in MMOs, anything where there's only fewer players in that role and more eyes are on them is the same. What's different in DBD is that the killer playerbase expects to win north of 80% of their games, with CCs closer to 95%, even when instituting outlandlish challenges to make the game harder. Losing at all is something they feel they should be ashamed of. It's WRONG. You're the POWER ROLE. When people say to play how you want, it's never advice given in service of having fun, role playing, or not worrying about winning.
Those killers don't experience anxiety when they play survivor because they don't care when they lose. It's not tied to their egos. They don't expect to win as the default. EXCEPT WHEN THEY DO. As you see every damn time Otz or others do their stupid hardcore survivor challenges and those same players who supposedly experience no anxiety when playing survivor start losing their ######### minds.
Meanwhile, we have threads on the front page literally daily of people anxious because they got dinged by BHVR's dumbass automated systems telling them that they're going to be punished for playing survivor 'badly,' on top of all the ones clearly stressed about playing against tunnelling, Ghouls, Jason, etc etc. AND all the people, in this thread even, who have said they just flat out quit survivor, either partially or entirely because of it.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098110#Comment_4098110
The fact you come in with a victim narrative right away is crazy.
I never once said that survivor was easy or that there was a lack of anxiety on that side so if your going to come in here with some what about stuff you can go ahead and move on your opinion isn't need here.
Now with that killer is way more stressful do to that fact it's a 4v1 and everything falls on your shoulders as with survivor there's always someone else you can look at and say well if they just did gens or didn't just leave me on hook while sitting in a corner brings the stress down alot. But as I said with killer been easier now just because it's less stressful on survivor doesn't discount that the role can still be stressful and there can be survivor anxiety it's just clearly not as prevalent as the killer side
Buddy.
"I know I'm about to get the loud minority of survivors coming in here and saying how dumb it is and that the killer role is easier them it's ever been but just because the hill your trying to climb is now a 80 degree angle now instead of 90 doesn't make it easy."
An ounce of self-awareness.
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Don't nerf killers or killer perks based on what the top 0.1% of players can do. That's not fair because of bad matchmaking, and it's not realistic to judge comp level killer play.
But balance survivors and survivor perks based on what the top 0.001% of players can do because it's unfair to force killers to have to play against unreasonable things like that with such poor matchmaking and they're broken.
Different week, same tired song.
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Pretty sure that Nightlight is still counting abandons as escapes, which artificially drags kill rates down.
And BHVR has said that their own stats throw out all games with DCs, which also drags kill rates down.
So all we have are two sets of stats that we know both self-limit to severely underestimate the actual kill rates.
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Another symptom of the asinine design decisions of the current endgame. It needs to be completely thrown out and redone in a way that promotes player agency and interacts, not abandoning, slugging, and camping.
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Because, as it turns out, having fun is not the same as winning. It doesn't matter how strong you make survivors, a buttload of killer players are never going to touch the role, a buttload of former players are never coming back, and a buttload of current players are going to have a single miserable game of being instantly camped/tunneled by a Ghoul/Jason/Nurse/Blight, or want to play the fiftieth game in a row against Jason, or a basement Trapper/Bubba/Hag, or be slugged for the 4k and have to sit on the ground for 4 minutes, or any of the dozen other completely miserable playstyles that afford no agency, and be done for the next week.
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Why would they start doing that when they haven't done it since ending the Health Update.
The game is obviously in such a great and healthy state.
After their big health initiative.
Which delivered on everything that it promised.
Clearly.
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Ya'll expecting a balance update for this event when there hasn't been a balance patch this YEAR yet.
Couldn't do one in January, because that was for ST chapter.
Couldn't do one in February because that was for Trickster 'rework.'
Couldn't do one in March or April because that was for diminishing returns which was promised to have its own post-update fixes that still haven't come.
Couldn't do one in May because that was for Jason chapter.
Couldn't do one in June or July because that was for Anniversary.
Won't be doing one in August because that's for Grimoire chapter.
So maybe in September if you're lucky, and they don't say that the Halloween event is taking too much time. MAYBE.
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Where are these supposed people who are saying that hundred plus wins on survivor are good and healthy for the game? You're having to construct a strawman argument because nobody is making it just so you can say that both sides are at fault. Neither should exist.
But one of them is very, very rare because it requires so much more effort, practice, coordination, and skill, not to mention an entire group of four people. The other requires far far less, impacts four times as many players at once, and is easily imitatable to very great efficacy even by those with far less skill. Both situations should be removed from the game. But at the same time, one is about a hundred times more prevalent, impacts far more players negatively, and is much more replicable by any jackass who wants to do this crap.
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DC penalties are necessary, BUT they need to come with guardrails that prevent the need for them. That includes both technical stability where the servers won't spontaneously disconnect you because of the tiniest hiccup somewhere, and a game environment that does not put players into miserable and inescapable situations where DCing and accepting penalties is a better choice. BHVR has done an awful job at creating such an environment, both through allowing extremely broken and uninteractive mechanics and strategies to foster, and not addressing toxic, unsportsmanlike actions. Codifying SOME disconnects as being okay when put in those situations by Abandoning only reinforces the belief that sometimes it's okay to disconnect while not addressing any of the underlying issues.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095369#Comment_4095369
See here's another person saying "just do X" and leaving out all the nuance.
Even if survivors do this it's still a win for Jason because survivors are wasting time not advancing their objective and odds are Jason will find a survivor sooner rather than later by making educated guesses as to where survivors spawn at the beginning of the match and being able to instantly hop back into OE if he's wrong. Entity help them if they dare to touch a lit totem.
I also like all the suggestions that are things like "Well, just take chase." Oh, I didn't realize you could just say "Hey, killer, you have to chase me now instead of tunnelling," and they have to do that. Well, just don't pre-run, or run to a pallet. Give them a free hit. Give them a down to make yourself a better target. Don't make it too hard for them, that's just good and healthy gameplay.
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@brewingtea said:
Because as much as killers complain, you don't see them actually SWITCHING to play the "better" role, even when there's a queue bonus! That's all you need to hear.
Funny that. All those people who always simultaneously say:
"I play the most optimal to win."
"I play both sides."Never seem to have an iota of interest in playing survivor despite their nonstop complaints about every single little thing survivors may get that is even perceived as being the slightest bit useful.
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As others have said, Abandon is an abdication of BHVR to address the root cause of players being trapped in extremely long situations where they have zero agency. Banging on the drum once more, the entire endgame is devoid of both sides making any kind of meaningful gameplay decisions. Killers have no good options but to camp hooks. Survivors have no good options except to leave ASAP. Some perks do exist that MIGHT change some, but in 99% of games, there's absolutely nothing to do. The most egregious scenarios are when killers win, which is where the Abandon stuff has largely been implemented, because they were able to extend games for not just the slug timer, but well beyond it if they were particularly toxic.
A competent developer would have been working for years to recognize and address those situations through refining mechanics, punishing abusers, and incentivizing fun interactions. But that ain't BHVR, so we get a band-aid fix to shunt people back into the queue faster to try to simultaneously address that exploding issue.
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He's having a meltdown and going completely AFK while he has 3 people on death hook, one hooked, everyone injured, and only 3 gens are done.
In both games.
CCs have zero capacity for self-awareness.
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Being confusing, difficult to use, and difficult to manage is intended for anything customer service facing. If you give up and quit because of the interface, then no complaint is filed, there's no work to do, and no record of any issue.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092145#Comment_4092145
The Year 10 Roadmap shows chapters in July and September. The next PTB has 2 survivors for a license chapter. There's no reason to expect this next ptb will have balance changes.
It's BHVR.
That's more than enough reason to expect all PTBs to not have balance changes as the default.
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The original sin is that there wasn't a win condition. It was just a playground. Chase the other side, some escape, some don't. Everyone 'wins' by playing and engaging with the mechanics. But there was also a lot of soft pressure to play in a fun way via both the scoreboards and the emblem system. End the match too fast or too efficiently, and you're dinged for it. Losing an emblem or rank didn't mean anything, but people still cared about having the number say that they were at max, and so they tried to keep it there. Plus the BP economy was brutal, so you were even more incentivized to do things for score. There were far more broken items and add-ons, but they were more difficult to get in vast quantities, AND you had to give up your cache to prestige, further keeping the balance economy at least SOMEWHAT in check. There were also perks like BBQ, which was additional soft pressure towards healthy and fun gameplay. Even perks like Pop are an incentive for the killer to physically move away from the hook.
But then BHVR came along, decided that all those things were garbage and stupid. Got rid of them. Introduced a ton of regression and stall perks like Pain Res, Corrupt, Deadlock, etc that just work, period. Guaranteed massive value. And work even better when you camp/tunnel. Declared that nothing matters except getting kills/escaping, there should be minimal if not zero incentives or pressure to do anything but end the game as quickly as possible and provide the opponent minimal chances to do anything, and of ######### course you get the game in the state that it's in.
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Fixing the survivor queue and making it playable for more casual players helps the killer experience a lot as well. The obvious, that it doesn't take 8 minutes to find a match, but also that the survivor playerbase isn't exclusively sweats and tryhards who are the only ones who are able to survive in the onslaught of ghouls and all the massive mobility/anti-loop killers with massive innate tracking that keep being released.
I mean, if MMR was baseline functional at least. But still a wider array to pick from.