lets discuss why are camping and tunneling considered bad?
survivors tunnel gens as killers tunnel survivors to gain an advantage. if a killer tunnels a survivor to make the game a 3 vs 1 it is seen as bad (the whole killers should go for hooks not kills mentality)...yet survivors dont finish a gen halfway leave and go work on another gen unless they are chased off.
killers proximity camping a survivor (especially when the other survivors are injured or there are gens nearby that are regressing/can be patrolled) or in the rare case of a killer having two survivors on a hook close to each other...why would the killer leave to go find another survivor? it makes no logical sense...if two survivors proximity camp a gen (1 leading the killer on a chase so the 2nd can loop back and finish the gen) why is it seen as bad for the killer p.o.v. but not from the survivor p.o.v. when it is the exact same scenario?
both survivors and killer are trying to do their objectives as efficiently as possible especially as their mmr rank rises if they want to get kills or escapes...so why is there such a double standard to camping and tunneling when both sides do it to a degree?
this new ptb patch is going to add a hook escape and perks to make repairing gens even faster so it seems like both objectives from the killer p.o.v. are seen as bad (here is your stick eventually you will get your carrot) so it seems like the developers are fixing the problem for one side.
what are the communities thoughts?
Comments
No amount of buffs to Killer or nerfs to Survivor will ever stop camping and tunneling. They would have to straight up be prevented by a game mechanic for Killers to not do them. It will always be the easiest way to get hooks/eliminate Survs and any buffs and nerfs are just going to make it even easier. I think this is literally why Killers aren't getting meaningful buffs, like it seems obvious that they should but these tactics are likely what is preventing that.
My goal is not to ruin someone's game. My goal is to win. Don't come to me with your "two hooks on everyone before a kill" crap.
They arent bad, their just very unfun for both sides.
Getting genrushed is frustrating because you feel powerless to stop it, knowing you will probably lose despite your skill level.
Being tunneling is frustrating because after the first chase, you get hooked. Being hooked is boring you cant do anything. Then you get unhooked, but the killer comes straight for you because its smartest to get an early kill. Since you are injured you will likely go down fast. Basekit BT only guarantees you reach a loop, after its gone you are just chasing injured. Go down, get hooked, get bored bc ur hooked, get frustrated bc you cant do anything about it, get unhooked, downed, killed. Out of the game extremely fast with little to do about it.
Their making a good play, just at your expense.
Good for you
Because people go into games with unrealistic expectations aka entitlement. They expect their opponents to play in a specific way and forget that there are living people on the other side thinking the same thing. Then they get frustrated that a killer/survivor isn't playing the way they want and act surprised that insults/harassments won't convince said player to play any differently.
so may i ask respectfully why some streamers with thousands of hours tunnel in their games?
i know there are some that try to play fair by spreading hooks but they usually lose or get a draw and i dont see their macro skills being bad.
if killers mains (with many more hours) have to resort to these tactics then what chance do regular players have against 4 good solos or a swf?
i realize it can be unfun to be chased and tunneled but that is why looping exists...what i find unfun is being slugged for four minutes not being in an interactive chase with the killer (yes i try my best and sometimes look the killer for 2 to 3 gens other times it is a dead zone and i get schooled it is all part of dbd).
thanks that is what i meant by tunneling gens or gen rushing i consider them the same thing...tunneling an objective until it is done (getting the kill on the survivor or finishing the gen).
if scavenger goes live as is it will be one of the most broken perks available...too much synergy with getting tokens with a fast repair toolbox to get the tokens and then get the toolbox at full charges again (even built to last has the down time of having to find a locker and go inside to recharge the toolbox).
gens dont hit back (bruce lee voice) ^_^
if the teammates are not being proactive and dont try bodyblocking then yeah that is on the teammates not the killer. if i see a teammate getting tunneled i am for sure going for a bodyblock hit or getting in position for when they go down to try for the pallet stun/flashbang/sabotage play or at the very least making more scratch marks available and try to divert the killer to chase me.
Give me an example.
Actually what's wrong with the game is the fact people can be killed mid game itself, but somehow people (and even BHVR) believes problem is on tunneling and camping.
It's always a fundamental issue, but since no one can actually fix that problem without making new game, we pretend to be ignorant and try to go easier way which doesn't really fix problem.
But killers do have the feeling too, and they will feel little sad when a generator is done, much more when last gen is done.
Even though it feels weird to say "tunneling gen" ultimately I don't see any difference between two there, like, survivors hates tunneling because they want to play a match longer, killers hates gens done because they want to play a match longer, what's the difference really.
I once took four protection hits in one chase. A tunnelling killer will tunnel no matter what, and someone else playing guardian angel means gens aren't getting done.
I feel tunneling is bad because that means someone can depip and not get to participate in the match long, it also could discourage someone from continuing playing more.
Camping can have the same effect. It can make someone's match very short, make them in an unhappy mood and not want to play more.
"I shouldn't care for anyone else's fun"
"Well, you should, it's a video game"
"Tell that to the EVIL SURVIVOR MAINS who don't care about MY fun"
Oh babes.
Nice try twisting my words. If you read a little closer you'll see that (insert survivor insult here) doesn't bother me in the least bit.
I was pointing out hypocrisy from the post I was referencing. Seems you fit that bill too.
Camping promotes gameplay of one over the other to such an extent that one player plays the game while intentionally not interacting with other players in order to prevent another player from playing the game.
Tunneling off of Hook circumvents the “hide until found” part of a Survivors gameplay loop due to current hook dynamics rather than a skill difference. (Killer knows where the Hooked Survivor is unhooked, and is even notified of when the Survivor is Unhooked for some reason).
Babe, it's a video game. Unclench.
"I play this game for my entertainment. It's not even a little bit up to me to ensure that you have a fun match."
And you're trying to call out others for hypocrisy? Lmao.
And that makes me a hypocrite how? I assume you have at least a rudimentary grasp of the English language. Please let me know.
That is the most extreme option 2 hooking everyone not one I mentioned. There are many options in between tunneling at 5 gens and hooking everyone twice. Spreading some hooks can mean 5 hooks before first kill and it's lot more consistent strat than just tunneling one survivor and ignoring everyone else completely. It allows time to identifyi possible weak link and you don't put all your cards on one target. Both sides definetely can have more enjoyable game that way. Spreading some hooks should be encouraged by devs and rewarded.
Did you miss the part where I said I don't tunnel without a reason?
In respect to both tunneling/camping vs generators, there does not appear to be a double standard because both areas are often covered here within the forums. It's not a one-way street of tunnelling and camping always being picked on, whilst gens are ignored.
It may seem like the killer role is dumped on some more, but that is potentially because more people play survivor than killer.
Camping is subjectively worse than tunneling, primarily because with tunneling it at least concerns the most fun part: interacting with the killer. Camping - specifically face-camping - would be the worst form of interaction. There is just so long you can make sweet love with your eyes (especially if some muppet is swinging at you!). That's why the new changes are good for the game. Tunneling has automatic Borrowed Time, which gives some leeway but it's impossible to prevent tunneling completely.
What I am seeing in the game currently are more perks working towards finishing gens more quickly. I'm feeling this is not helping the situation. Should the anti-tunnel and anti-camp actions work overall, the next thing ought to be reducing the impact of these gen-related perks if these changes do not alter the speeds (by this I mean killers starting chasing more and more, resulting in survivors not being able to spend as much times on gens).
Camping and Tunneling are bad when beign unnecessary,like when a Survivor looped good and hurt the ego of a killer.
I think nobody will agree that one shouldn't camp or tunnel,if the survivors are too altruistic,or gens have been done too fast and the killer needs some pressure.
Generally,I play as nice as possible as long as I'm winning/standing good.
My quota usually dictates this,2 hooks = 1 gen.
Should I fall behind that quota,I will tunnel and camp if necessary.
Oh and,don't expect mercy if you TBAG or try to humiliate me.
I will reduce my killer to M1 drone and throw the game just to punish you!
How did you ever make friends with an attitude like that? These "friends" are either hypothetical or you're some kind of genie.
Looking at some threads here in the forums they must be soulless monsters (including me)
Only monsters want crop top Feng
I just wanna thank every survivor who has ever been camped but held on despite that so the others could complete gens. They hit every skillcheck to keep that killer near them (via proxy or facecamp) and that is a Big Survivor move. Maybe it was too late for them but in their own dire situation they recognized that there was still time for the others. And when it was over, well, thanks to BHVR’s lousy bloodpoints distribution they left the match with 5-10K bloodpoints. But in my book they were still winners.
Believe it or not, end game chat doesn't automatically jump to DBD morals. Besides, I meant irl. The ones who showed me this game.
@Skill_issue is really the master of these posts to get us all arguing over the same thing again.
killers proximity camping a survivor (especially when the other survivors are injured or there are gens nearby that are regressing/can be patrolled) or in the rare case of a killer having two survivors on a hook close to each other...why would the killer leave to go find another survivor? it makes no logical sense...if two survivors proximity camp a gen (1 leading the killer on a chase so the 2nd can loop back and finish the gen) why is it seen as bad for the killer p.o.v. but not from the survivor p.o.v. when it is the exact same scenario?Because we are talking about game fun and those scenarios are not at all alike. Being camped is never fun. It's important to note not just in the 'losing' sense of not being fun. Getting taken down by a NOED while running for an open gate is rage invoking, but it's really exciting. Getting camped is just boring.
That's the difference. The game is meant to invoke tension and stress. If an element of the game fails at that objective, which camping definitely does and tunneling kind of can do, it should be removed. A flashlight save squad can be infuriating, but infuriating is better than boring and there are things that you can do. A gen rush squad makes the killer sweat for even a 1k, but again there is something as killer to try for.
Killers on this forum talk about how hard the game can be and how much they have to push themselves. Survivor complaints revolve around how boring and tedious certain situations can be. It should be obvious why a game designer would be far more worried about the latter scenario.
Other minor points
1: Only SWFs can really gen rush to maximum ability, while every killer player can camp if they wish.
2: Killers have said they don't care about survivors fun enough that BHVR has taken them at their word.
3: As @Pulsar has said, there is nothing else for survivors to do but gens. Even if, hypothetically, I wanted to play a 'let's 99 all the gens in the game' strategy it would only be possible if every other survivor was on board for it. The killer has complete control over how they play the game.
4: The survivors being in a rush fit the games theme. In a horror movie the normal characters are trying to get out as quickly as possible. Killers in horror movies hunt, stalk, surprise - they don't play defense (3 gen) or just ignore the other survivors (camp).
"4: The survivors being in a rush fit the games theme. In a horror movie the normal characters are trying to get out as quickly as possible."
And there it is. Survivor entitlement wide open for all to see. Doesn't even try to hide it.
Oh yeah... no.
1: Only SWFs can really gen rush to maximum ability
You have some points here. Getting camped is boring, since there is little input from the hooked survivor. I would posit that losing several gens following the first chase/hook is equally as unfun as the killer to. I would also say that putting the burden of "fun games" on the killer is a bit hypocritical when survivors will very rarely do the same. That burden falls on the devs. Their goal is to make games fun for everyone, not just survivors or killers.
The entire first paragraph was absolutely true.
Everyone keeps saying "carrot was tried, didn't work." These people do not understand what "carrot" means.
If you are trying to reduce a behavior with a reward, you need to reward not engaging in that behavior to a degree that is more favorable than the effect of the behavior itself. Nothing in 6.1.0 actively rewarded not tunneling. In fact, one of the existing carrots (BBQ stacks) was removed. 6.1.0 reduced the number of carrots.
Now, if you want to say that 6.1.0 made not tunneling more viable, this is true -- but that's not the same as the other perk and basekit buffs being a carrot in this scenario. There was still no reward for not tunneling, other gameplay tactics just became less bad in comparison.
An actual carrot gives the killer a reward for spreading hook states. Right now, the only two perks in the game that do this are PR and Grim Embrace. Neither perk's effect is as good as tunneling someone out, so as carrots they aren't effective.
Bringing back BBQ stacks would be another carrot, albeit another weak one.
An actual "carrot" would make not tunneling more effective than tunneling, or give some other reward so substantial that many killers would choose to take the reward even if it means losing the match.
Killers are the ones setting the time limit and putting the pressure on, my dude. Survivors just can't afford to flop around and waste time anymore.
What you will eventually come to realize is there are two realities on this forum - the reality of those who think inclusivity and making the game “fun for everyone” is the main priority, then you have the reality of those who enjoy actually playing the game correctly. Correctly as in using the tactics anyone who plays at the highest level will use, but you aren’t supposed to because your in public que and that means you should think of everyone else…
What you will do well to learn - seeking approval for playing the game the way you feel is correct, is a fools errand. First of all, most players are either survivor favored or just straight mains. Mathematically this is true based on number of survivors it takes in a match vs. killer. Very rarely does anyone play mostly killer here. Secondly, unless you’re hacking, exploiting a glitch, etc. you shouldn’t even feel the need (although it’s true we all have been there, I’m just trying to save you some time). Third, there is no single game where if you try to win, people won’t complain about it. Playing to win is almost always looked down on. If you play one of the best characters in a fighting game, low-tier heroes will just hate on you. If you play patiently in COD instead of running into every engagement, you’re a camper and a terrible person. Just don’t bother, play how you feel is right. They will adapt or not.
The more efficient one side plays, the faster they can potentially end matches and outpace their opponents. This forces them respectively to play faster and more efficient themselves, which forces their next opponent to do the same thing. It's a cycle of trying to win matches faster than the other side, which now got worse because survivors adjusted from spam healing to rushing gens to compete with killers and killers now need to tunnel and camp even more to not get outpaced.
Further survivor nerfs are not going to do much here and nerfing killers isn't going to solve that issue either because now that players got accustomed to this play style they won't change it as long as it keeps winning them games. What needs to be done is tackling both issues at the same time. Camping and tunneling need to be addressed while simultaneously limitting gen rushing. Otherwise we make one side toy for the other.
You can say the same abou the killer. And they won't be super happy getting teabagged after the survivors obliterated them either. The truth is that most players either don't care about their opponent's feelings or want them to feel bad about themself. The amount of players that maintain a more positive approach is small to say the least.
I don't blame any person who min-max their play style because players will ALWAYS try to min-max as much as the game rules allow. This has and always will be a thing which is why game design is important, because players will always try to break the game. So I don't think it's the players fault, the design is just garbage.
I highly doubt there is a lot of people that like being snowballed. Of course people love being the ones doing the snowball. That is why Killers complain about fast generators and Survivors complain about getting tunneled or camped because both are trying to gain an advantage as quickly as possible before the other side does.
If you take a step back, this isn't rocket science. It's logical why they are adding so much to Survivors to reduce the effects of tunneling and camping. Because it's cheaper then solving a long standing problem from the core game design. If Killers and Survivors want to remove the most problematic issue then you need to be willing to remove the snowball.
If both of you can't do that, then you shouldn't complain because they are both linked.
Killers literally spent the strongest meta we've seen in years reinforcing 'do gens or die'' to survivors and are suddenly *shocked Pikachu face* that survivors don't just screw around opening chests anymore.
I can already tell that the words "tunneling generators" is just going to lead to community uproar without even looking at the replies.
WOOOO community discourse, ya love to see it (not really, it sucks to see).
The nerfs on items make it really worthless to spend time to run to a chest (assume you already know where it is), 10sec to open for a medkit, 24sec for self healing. Then go back to a Gen. The time it takes is x4 to running to a Gen, see a teammate and get healed in 16sec.
Medkit charges needed a nerf yes, but I think items that survivors bring in should be spawn another chest for them to search.
Bring in a medkit means an extra medkit + not spending time to find it in a chest. The pros for bringing a single medkit is too much.
Survivors don't play against gens, they play against Killers.
Best way to determine what's wrong about them is to really look at the feedback surrounding them. Not everyone is a sweaty player, lots are casual players who just hop on now and then to play a game. These strategies prevent that person from being able to participate in the game.
That's not my feedback btw. I've said numerous times I don't see these strategies enough in my games for them to overly bother me. This is just based on the countless feedback I've seen over the years. They all say pretty much the same thing.
well the question was about whats the difference between tunneling survivors and tunneling Gen.
A completed Gen doesnt stop killer from playing. A dead survivor does stop a player from playing.
I dont defend on survivors’BM behaviour
if this was fixed then the game could start to get balanced...a basekit thanataphobia so injuries to the whole team matter or a basekit grim embrace/mini deadlock
in all fairness wasnt there less tunneling? i remember people complaining about killers not leaving their 3 gens with those perks not tunneling abuse... proximity camping was more rampant in the survivor games i played
and you are playing it smart...good perk loadouts are either finish the objective quickly (doing gens at every given opportunity) or stalling the killers objective (the loadout you are running)
it is up to survivor team to stop the tunneling and camping...your loadout plus lithe/sprint burst or sabotage or flashbang and bodyblocking is how you deter the killer
it is just common sense if gens are popping quickly then a survivor is going to most probably get tunneled (if the killer wants any chance of getting kills in the match)
Yeah pretty much this, getting gen rushed sucks but hey you can do stuff. When I'm being camped there isn't anything I can do expect having a staring contest with the bubba
That'd be near the end-game and ir was especially prevalent with SM and Knight.
Eruption got complaints because 25 seconds of having zero options wasn't a good mechanic. It COULD have made going after other Survivors more viable, since you know where they are; most people just used it to tunnel since they knew Survivors couldn't do anything for half a minute.