AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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I don't mind forced penance, it's a niche, But useful perk.
But let's be honest here, "go play dbd", in your words is "go do gens". It's that really want you want them to do?
Do you honestly think they're going to go open a chest or chance a dull totem in this situation instead?
DbD is a pvp game, so if you choose to limit the options to interact with the killer, then that's a choice in this case. But the survivors are going to go do gens instead. I'm not sure exactly why you'd want that. I want them to do anything other than gens, personally. Even better if they do it voluntarily.
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@Firsken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072302#Comment_4072302
You're just trying to ragebait at this point.
WoO is like a wallhack for survivors.
Seeing 7 gens, against 4 players does literally nothing. It's the same as seeing exit gates for survivors…
I'm done here. Have a nice day.You can't even acknowledge similarities in these abilities, and it's because you desperately want one of them and want the other removed.
No one goes to where the gens are completed to look for survivors (unless they already have better information, like a perk or previous have knowledge like a boon that was snuffed earlier).
Just like you won't go intentionally to a dead zone with woo. In both cases, wandering blindly into the unknown is objectively worse than having the information to guide you where to start looking.
Nothing about that information tells you how or when to use those resources. But especially when we get killers where the only meaningful counter play is pallets, then either there needs to be a way to find pallets, or those killer needs to be changed.
I'm not even advocating for it to be base kit or anything, just leave it alone. Just because something might be useful or functional doesn't mean that survivors should have to have it nerfed.
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@Firsken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072284#Comment_4072284
You still have zero knowledge IF survivors will be at said gen. You have 7 different options to go to…
Mind you, I've only played survivor the last year or 2. I wouldn't mind if they changed it to a perk.
WoO is still OP, imo. And it shows, since everyone and their mother is using the perk every single match.So, it gives you a guidance of where to go, but doesn't actually play the game for you or guarantee success once you get there?
Huh, neither does woo. Thank you for making my point for me, someone else does get it!
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@Firsken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072265#Comment_4072265
There's no benefit to see gens, more than knowing where they are.
WoO gives you a clear advantage by being able to plan your escape across the map.
It's like putting a blindfold on your opponent in chess.No benefit?
It's only the most likely place to find survivors, and specifically the only place to find survivors who are actually working on gens.
I bet you'd find an awful lot of reasons to keep this "useless" ability if they ever decided to get rid of it though. Or if, say, they made it take a perk slot instead of being base kit.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072260#Comment_4072260
I did not argue about anything I was answering someone else argument. I already stated what my stand is and what my argument is and so far I have not get any good counter argument for it. Only attempts to water down my argument by adding stuff that has nothing to do with it or trying to get me to engage of schematics and I don't think there is no reason to me to do so anymore. I will really like to see when someone comes up with some good counter argument that anyway has any good reasoning why the perk does not deserve a nerf.
Look, I quoted you initially to what I was responding to. You were saying that killers do not have anything like woo that is 100% uptime.
Here's the quote of your words again for you:
there is no killer perk with same level of value than WoO gives to survivors that is on 100% of the match
When I pointed out that, not only do killers have this ability, but it's also free and base kit for them, you have no argument.
So your entire argument is just, basically "nerf survivors" and have no reasoning or rationale that stands up to even the barest hint of scrutiny. Or, at least, you aren't willing to try to explain it justify your stance.
And that's ok. You are absolutely entitled
to your opinion.
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Well, you didn't argue that killers had it. You only wanted to argue semantics of "it's a perk". So, the only conclusions would be that either woo should be base kit like seeing gens already is, or maybe your point is that killers should have to equip a perk to see gens all the time.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072251#Comment_4072251
As a Perk as I said there is not. In the end the gen info is still less than what you get from WoO.
So if they made woo base kit you'd be ok with that?
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072237#Comment_4072237
and what is this on about yeah they have and the point is? I am not talking about resources but if a perk needs a nerf.
You said there's nothing like that for killer. There's absolutely is, and it's base kit.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072217#Comment_4072217
I am sorry but your point again does not make sense when there is no killer perk with same level of value than WoO gives to survivors that is on 100% of the match. I have stated this already several times and only counterpoint is people talking about skillful usage of perks that literally is same on all perks all of them demand skill to use well. I am done debating this as I don't see this going anywhere. I have made my points why it needs a nerf and so far have not got any counterpoint of why it shouldn't. Even those here who posted of defense of the perk are just giving even more reasons why it should be nerfed as their argument are just proving that its not healthy to the game. I know I am maybe yelling in the wind but I know I am correct in this opinion and I am not the only one who considers this perk a problem.
there is no killer perk with same level of value than WoO gives to survivors that is on 100% of the match
Both teams have resources that are intended to be expended as a natural and normal part of gameplay. These resources buy time for the team to complete their actual objective as they are consumed.
For survivors, this is pallets, and it requires a perk to see where the RNG of the game has distributed them, and to see which are still remaining.
For killers, the expendable resource is gens. And, no, there's no perk, because it's a base kit ability to see these with 100% uptime.
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the killer has almost no reason to be around completed gens
If survivors are trying to take their chase toward gens in progress, they're objectively doing it wrong.
If you can lead the killer away, more time for your team. And the best place for that is where gens are already finished.
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@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071974#Comment_4071974
Don’t understand why they are so hesitant in making it 5 seconds.
No idea really, though it's kind of par for the course.
They tend to double or sometimes triple nerf something and then are extremely reluctant to go back and adjust even part of it later.
DS wouldn't been fine with disabling in end game and conspicuous actions, but they also cut the sun to 3s initially. It took years and fighting to get it up to 4s.
Ruin they cut in half and added a "disables if anyone dies" portion that they eventually removed later. I still contend they changed the wrong part of that and should have left the disable on death and revert the regression part instead back to 200%.
Gestures broadly at skull merchant
The list goes on, sadly
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071974#Comment_4071974
The issue is that OTR entered the picture. With OTR + DS, you can bodyblock too much.
DS needs to go back to 5 seconds, minimum, and OTR needs to be changed to be a complete info blackout instead of endurance. No scratch marks, no footsteps, no grunts of pain, no breathing, no aura, no killer instinct, no loud noise notifications, no crows, no bloodpools, nothing. Stopping just short of total invisibility.
That way, both OTR and DS can work as effective tunnelling deterrents without working for anything else.
I could see that being viable as well. It would be interesting to see at minimum.
The main problem here is that we're debating which band aid might be useful, and realistically none of this will ever see the light of day.
It all boils down to what the community allows the devs to do here, and 5s DS is already a no, and anti tunneling is also a hard no.
Imo, unless we can put some limits on tunneling it's not going to really matter, and that's not allowed.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
DS being activated by conspicious actions is fine. The only thing which should be reverted is the Stun Duration, 5 seconds should be the duration. 1,3 seconds are lost in the animation anyway.
And also, 5 seconds are nowadays not the same as 5 seconds pre 6.1.0. We have stronger Killers nowadays and especially the Killers who dont care about DS are those who tunnel (because what a surprise - tunneling Killers are sweaty and sweaty players use strong Killers). Plus Maps are weaker nowadays, when you got to a Jungle Gym basically guaranteed pre 6.1.0, nowadays you will probably only reach some unsafe Pallet.
Obviously, 5 second DS will do nothing to prevent tunneling and the best way for Killers will still be to just eat the DS and continue tunneling. For that we would need actual punishments for tunneling, not a mild inconvenience like DS. But we know that the Devs want Killers to tunnel, it is the intended playstyle. But 5 seconds would be more than 4 seconds and maybe some Killers who then think that DS will be too punishing will not tunnel, who knows.
But it should deactivate when doing anything which progresses the game. When you are doing Gens, you are not being tunneled.
They seem extremely reluctant to put the 5s back in for some reason. Even the brief period they tried it again they also shadow nerfed the animation to be another second longer, so both killer and survivor ended up getting stunned for about an extra second, which made no sense.
Personally, since they are deathly afraid of 5s, having the perk put the killers power on a short cooldown would be better overall. It hits the mobility killers hardest, and killers like trapper aren't going to care.
It would still have to be in addition to a stun, otherwise an immediate m1 downs you again, but it could even be 3s if you took the abilities that instantly close the gap out of the equation.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071916#Comment_4071916
2% Perk token. 3 tokens perk hook. 6% permanent progress at that. Doesn't seem like much but it adds up. Not to mention it stacks with brand new parts. Innocation…etc…it all adds up. The gens fly faster than ever now. The devs said it themselves. You pretty much HAVE to run 4 slowdown if you want really want to "Win" consistently.
As someone desperately trying to run fast track to see this "massive value" I keep hearing about, I call bullshit.
I've gotten "value" from this perk only a handful of times:
- Pig on Freddy's. Fought over shack gen and dumped a full 9 tokens into it. Came back to finish it, completely undisturbed (so, tons of time even without FT). Even if you split hairs, game was a 4k at 2 gens left. Zero impact.
- Huntress on one of the Auto Haven maps. Finished a gen as she approached because I got a lucky skill check. Gen was at 95% when that happened. Value? Sure. Would've done the exact same thing before the changes with fast track too. Oh, this game was also a 4k, so who cares.
- Demo on wretched shop. Down to 1 gen left and my duo and I dropped all of our tokens into main. Gen had about half of max progress to complete. Demo fought both of us over that gen, which never finished nor did it hit zero. Teammate finished another gen to power the gates. So, zero actual perk value, and we could've pressure the gen without it.
Some lowlights:
- Being the only one not hooked/not death hook/or healthy and have to go save with full tokens. Burning tokens while forced off gens, because I'm not going to throw for this perk.
- Dying with tokens.
- Being the only one with the perk and tunneled out immediately (up to 3 so far, which is more than I've had actual "value" from FT btw).
- Spending more than half a gen waiting for a skill check with full tokens for almost a minute and finishing the gen without ever seeing the required skill check. Nor did it matter at that point.
- Shouting at the game for a skill check when it would matter and having to run away instead of the perk making a difference.
I'm not seeing this insane value. It's not game breaking from my perspective, it's not even easy to get value out of this perk every time, let alone maximum value.
My personal experience is that in every game I've played with FT, I'd have been better off with deja Vu in that slot. I switched over to hyper Stakeout and got way more consistent value, and that includes using those two with fast track. It's just not consistent.
Fast track isn't getting changed because it's activation condition is "punishing", which is the official story. Batteries included, fire up, and noed also "punish survivors for just doing their objective". So that's a load of crap.
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I just personally can't find any meaningful landmarks. Maybe I just haven't played it enough yet.
Because aside from the market area near "totally not shack", "the gen in the street near the van next to the neon building" describes about 80% of this map.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067232#Comment_4067232
People are forgetting that aside from Ruin, regression perks does almost nothing to blood gens. Even pain ress isn't enough to stop a 70% gen from being completed. Its like an "easy mode" gen that only gen block perks is effective.
My experience with these has been that the "you're forced to walk away without completing the gen" has given a ton of extra value to gen regression on blood gens.
I can't tell you how many times I get a blood gen to "almost finished" and the can runs out, only to come back to a gen that got hit with a maximum strength pain res hit at full value while I was gone.
Especially having the fuel pumps grouped together, having to traverse the entire map, in some cases, gives even the base level of "garbage" regression enough time to do work. Even ruin has put a significant dent in some of these, especially when factoring in "normal gameplay" elements like getting chased with the can before going back or having to go rescue.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4071259#Comment_4071259
IMO no Boon is worth the time to set it up. The only Boon which was worth the time was CoH and this was already not good enough before they removed the Self-Healing aspect of the Perk (basically it was the best and most healthy right before they removed self-healing, before someone wants to act as if I said that Release-CoH was fine).
Circle just needs one change: if you have circle of healing equipped, you can self care in any circle of healing boon.
Fixes the "one perk for the whole team" complaint, while making the perk actually usable in about 80% of scenarios again. If you want an entire team to self care in the boon, it takes 4 perk slots. That's more than fair.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4070316#Comment_4070316
Personal experiences are kinda the only data that matters when you're the one talking. This community keeps using streamers jumping through 50 unseen hoops to farm a 15s clip as examples. Is that good data? Nightlight is very limited, so also bad data. And who knows what data the devs are using. Are they looking solely at escapes? Because if they are, that's questionable data. The people trying this perk out are people who keep up with changes and with community talk. People who have a good grip on the game. The person who logs on a couple times a month on Saturday isn't even paying attention, and they're probably not a great player. Can't say I really trust this company with data anyway. They give us killer stats that exclude DC matches, so are definitely deflated from the reality of matches, and they give us a stat page that throws out survivor losses when the person abandons, inflating their personal stats. The only way this could be proven to maybe be an issue is if individual players suddenly go from 40% ERs to 50%, and well never know that. I can say my monthly ER is steady regardless of my build, including when I tried this perk. If anything, it may have dipped it a couple points.
So you're saying it'd be fine if it lost the permanent aspect. But it's still "punishing" killers for hooking, which has been the argument. What's the difference? From what I understood, this was a perk where people held their tokens until it would finish or near-finish the gen anyway.
Again, I don't care about this perk. They can delete it as far as im concerned. It's the reason they're doing it I take issue with. I promise you if there'd been no social media commotion this wouldn't be happening.
So you're saying it'd be fine if it lost the permanent aspect. But it's still "punishing" killers for hooking, which has been the argument. What's the difference?
The person you're responding to is probably the most honest of anyone lately, tbh. But the difference is one word:
Unregressable.
The same thing that killed anti tunnel, really. Because the loudest voices in modern DbD aren't playing killer at all, they're playing saboteur.
Killing survivors isn't the objective for them, it's apparently "all gens at zero or no deal". 4k, but they completed 3 gens, so it doesn't count: buff regression.
Everything else is just gaslighting, lies, and manipulation. The perk "pUnIsHeD" exactly the same as before, it's just inciteful language. Same as "you'll see more tunneling" or "more blight" (do what they want…or else).
It's why no one can give a solid answer. It's not about "punishing hooks" or anything, that's simply how about half the perks in the game work: triggers based on game conditions or advancing the game.
Because it certainly wasn't "punishing" when DS and OTR disabled in end game, apparently. Those were good, healthy changes, but in 2026 lingo we're apparently "punishing survivors for completing their objective".
It's just panic because if they can't keep the gens at zero, they can't "win"… because the saboteur player only wins if the gens never have progress at all.
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@Nazzzak said:
If it's the start of the game, i ignore them. If they're being particularly persistent then I'll slug them. They usually start playing normally after that. Less often they'll DC. If it's late game and they've clearly lost then I'll hook them so they can get to their next game
Same.
If they're AFK early, I usually will hook them and focus on them. At that point I've basically already won the 3v1 anyway and it gives the other 3 a chance to salvage something for a bit.
Except the one time I brought a backpack build and had an afKate. They weren't too happy about me getting a permanent backpack.
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I was playing with finesse for a while and felt like it was really picky about activating. There were a few times where I was running straight on at the vault and didn't get it to activate, which felt really weird.
I only played a handful of games before switching builds to something else, but I think I was averaging maybe one activation per match. Which seems really off, especially since I was trying to force it after a while.
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Exactly which killer powers are you referring to?
Almost every killer about that inflicts a status that I can think of gives a permanent version of the debuffs that isn't affected by vigil. Like, for example, the exposed from ghost face is not impacted by the perk in any way.
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Yeah this feels like an under considered area. Especially with them standardizing the "charges" system, which has diminishing returns built in.
Now I do agree that what we have isn't completely sufficient, since it would still be ideal to have upper and lower bounds to things like gen and heading speeds, but I'm not convinced this is the way to do it.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069330#Comment_4069330
Most antigen perks aren't technically modifiers though, and that's the most common build type for killers. So they'll likely be compeltley unaffected and continue to reign supreme, while stacking resi and deja vu is now nerfed. I run full aura currently as killer. Not a modifier, so will also be unaffected.
The only builds I see that will be impacted are haste (stacking being incredibly niche), healing speed (again, very niche), and like 2 "regression perks".
Most meta builds like aura read and gen control is unaffected, since triggers for taking chunks of a gen are typically unique. It isn't even clear if something like pop+eruption is included but pop+eruption and surge+eruption are basically the only regression combos that share an activation condition and do basically the same thing with different percentages.
The only clearly impacted perks would be call of brine and overcharge, which honestly I fully expect they will buff those as well to help offset the impact of this system.
I'll also add that this doesn't even come close to perk interactions that can have a massive impact. Like, for example, thrill+ftd can up to triple hex cleanse times and these two perks aren't in "the same category". Ftd isn't even an action speed modifier, technically.
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@Mandy said:
Ghoul is not in a position right now where he's overperforming - we've also made adjustments and bug fixes to a few things, we don't feel he's in the position where a hard nerf is warranted at this time, the revault is now even easier to do, so it should make more counterplay against the Ghoul.
Balance aside, then, are you going to address any of the quality of life going up against this character?
Specifically the grab attack feels absolutely terrible to go against. Having the killer be 20m away off screen, and your survivor stops dead for at least a full second has me slamming the controls thinking I'm about to DC.
It's completely jarring to lose all control of your character like that. Knowing also that this is effectively a ranged ability with auto aim, is like if having huntress hatchets stunned you automatically for no reason. Worse, since huntress you have to actually aim.
It feels like absolute ass to go against that. Mobility isn't an issue, but why does this need to remove player autonomy like this also?
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There's always a negativity bias here also. You aren't seeing the people who don't do this because you played this way. I also find it hard to believe that no one is leaving their items for you, even if it's rare.
You're only remembering the negative interactions. Or possibly, if you aren't going to the gate at all, you have no idea what's actually happening there and filling in what you imagine is occurring.
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This is kind of a weird change. Not sure I really see the reasoning or the need, personally.
I could see, maybe, having it pop up on a trigger condition (like becoming injured by the killer or power) and then giving brand new players a way to see the power during the match… but even then, just read it on the end game screen and not pull people out of game immersion.
Trying to come up with a use case where this is necessary is a challenge, even hypothetically.
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If the gates aren't powered and the killer is too close to the hook long enough, without another survivor also nearby, then it's the Anti-Face Camping mechanic. Once it charges up, as long as the gates aren't powered, the survivor gets a 100% self-unhook chance without perks for it.
That could be it, but without further context I'm just guessing at possibilities.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069125#Comment_4069125
From watching the stream it would include gen perks.
They said things such as killer ad ons and items don't contribute to diminishing returns tho.They said things such as killer ad ons and items don't contribute to diminishing returns tho.
That's interesting, since the most obvious source of gen repair sites is toolboxes.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069165#Comment_4069165
The same could be said for a 4 man slug. Sure, the killer COULD go around and hook everyone and one might be able to wiggle free… maybe they won't but they might.
Is it impossible to a point that giving up is reasonable? No.I'm not seeing where 4 man slug is a resource here.
But since you seen to want to talk about a red herring and change the subject, what options are there base kit for the 4 survivors slugged?
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This continues to be one of the most misunderstood aspects of the game for some reason.
It's because gens aren't the killers objective. At best, they're a consumable resource that buys the killer time to complete their actual objective: killing survivors.
And, for the record, you can still kill survivors after the gens are done.
I think of gens as a resource, and similar in many ways to pallets. They're intended to be used up as part of normal gameplay to buy time. But no one has ever said "I had to throw pallets that chase". Yet somehow "2 gens in my first chase" is considered problematic.
Is it harder with all the resources used? Sure. Is it impossible to a point that giving up is reasonable? No.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068451#Comment_4068451
I've been paying really, really close attention to this perk's presence in my matches. Like you, I ran it for 5 or so matches and it made zero difference in the outcomes. I brought it back out recently to try again. The matches have all either been losses or ones we would have won anyway because the killer got no hooks so the park was useless. Very often I can't use the stacks because, as you said, I was too busy and they were maxed out as well. There's also the issue of even getting a skill check, then hitting the great. Meanwhile, in my killer matches, I've lost a total of one match where someone has run this perk, and I've had people using it with Stake Out and Hyperfocus, or that goofy chest build. It's dropping off now though because people are catching on.
The perk I've been switching it out with is Self-Preservation, which I find infinitely more valuable and I really hope things stay quiet about that one. Funny enough, when I was running FT instead, I had a match against Momo, where FT was basically useless, but SP would have extended the match (doomed as it may have been anyway) because I would have been able to run freely without scratch marks when he came for me after hooking the second to last player. So I think I'll stick with SP. It let's me quietly meditate on a gen undisturbed, or prerun and let the killer look for me in lockers.
There's also the issue of even getting a skill check, then hitting the great
I forgot about this, but yeah. An unexpected effect was me with full tokens, hopping on the last gen at about 70% with someone, and we finished the gen without me getting a single skill check. Not me missing the great, the check never even appeared. So it's super RNG, even when it could give value.
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@cogsturning said:
It hasn't been nerfed because it's probaly not overperforming. It's been underperforming in both my killer and survivor matches.
I played 5 matches to test it before my friends switched to blood moon and I stopped trying to test it in that mode.
Of those 5 games, only 2 were games that I got any value out of it whatsoever. One of those was a gen that I had time to finish even if I was perkless, and the other I finished with a great skill check as the killer was approaching (and would've done the same with old fast track). Both of those games were 4k's with gens remaining.
The other 3 games I was tunneled out first twice (zero value) and the third game I was at max stacks going for rescues and recovery just burning tokens not even touching a gen.
So far, in my personal experience, I'd have been better off with more consistent value running deja Vu. Or resilience. Or literally anything else.
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Valid options for this as I see them:
- Fix it so that dodging doesn't go for "fastest choice" and throw matchmaking out the window. At least then dodging doesn't ruin the game for 5 people.
- Remove the lobby entirely.
- Lock players to a particular lobby, so it can search for a new, good match while waiting for the person who tried to dodge if they do queue up. So, dodging becomes impossible unless they time themselves out voluntarily.
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@ArcT said:
Bad coding, basically. Certain survivor states have a very low update priority for changing, such as unhooking, opening chests, letting go of gens, etc. This is why killers often get 'dedicated' rollback for things like grabs where stuff starts happening on the client side before the server reports back that the survivor was ACTUALLY in the wrong state.
In this case, unhooking, or being on hook, has extra leniancy. Probably to give killers an extra buffer for hook grabs, which don't exist any more, or safety from being hit literally the second you touch the ground. You can force it to update sooner by performing a higher priority action, like moving. Which is also why rollbacks on grabs are very common on gens but not windows or pallets, and why there are so many more BS vault hits with high latency. Moving is a high priority state. Vaulting is very buffered and client sided.
I expect there's some minimum amount of delay that accounts for typical desync and latency.
I could see something like, for example, a survivor starting a heal immediately but the unhooker gets interrupted last second. So the survivor is simultaneously still "hooked" and "being healed" which is probably going to cause a soft lock condition.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067226#Comment_4067226
Yeah, no, not having this debate about MFT not being a problem before and that batteries is equal to this.
Batteries is not, it has a radius, and MFT was a massive issue which led to it's nerf.Apparently you're also not willing to debate batteries being effectively equivalent to fast track.
Which was my point, that you have chosen to ignore twice now. And that I said was true regardless of how you viewed balance in the past.
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@Lorelei_Albrecht_TTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066987#Comment_4066987
I'm not allowed to play offline? You know what just for you I''ll start recording/streaming every session lmao.
It wasn't meant as some kind of gotcha. I just figured it would give context to the post.
There's a lot of wiggle room in "recently kicked", "roughly 20%", and "only a 30 sec chase". That's all I was hoping to see, really.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067262#Comment_4067262
True, I did not notice that change to be honest. (Shows how pointless of a Perk it is…)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067265#Comment_4067265
It was changed in 9.1.0:
https://deadbydaylight.wiki.gg/wiki/Potential_Energy#9.1.0-0
btw. the wiki.gg is the correct one, the fandom does not get updated anymore.
Oh, thank you. Google doesn't even recommend wiki.gg for me, which is annoying. I wish I could just choose to block fandom from everything at this point.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067005#Comment_4067005
Its not the goal. The token conversion is 1:1. Got changed a while ago.
Do you remember when? I missed this change and the wiki still says 30→20.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067135#Comment_4067135
THIS!!
Tunneling is a game design issue, not a specific players problem. People don't like to hear but forcing a 3v1 situation is needed in most matches against the best players, specially if you are on a low level killer. I'm completely against hard tunneling but some forms of "soft" tunneling are needed if you want to win.
Devs should really look into this issue considering how they can make everyone have a good time within DBD without making the anti-tunnel features exploitable in high level.
Tunneling is a game design issue, not a specific players problem.
This is true in a vacuum.
Except the devs did acknowledge this design flaw, worked and tested a fix, and a small but insanely loud minority screamed NO and they immediately did a 180.
So, at least since 9.1 PTB, a share of this blame rests on players who demanded it stay, threatened, lied, manipulated, and screamed that it be scrapped. Don't tweak, don't iterate, don't adjust, don't fix.
So when BHVR ultimately caved to that and pulled the plug on the test, then unfortunately it stops being solely a design issue.
If I told someone, hey I want to fix this problem, what do you think? And they said absolutely not, do nothing or I'll burn your house down. Then I don't think it's entirely on me if that issue isn't fixed at that point.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067162#Comment_4067162
I didn't see those two listed, that's fine, but you CANNOT claim those two perks are as strong.
Heck, Batteries Included has a range. Fire Up is…. Well, Fire Up.I never claimed strength. You said none of them were permanent, and I added fire up, since they did mention batteries.
Although, I didn't make the rules here, and 3% move speed was determined to break every loop in the game. So 5% move speed, permanently, should surely break the fabric of space time.
Now, i would argue that no matter where you stand on this, batteries and fast track are equivalently powerful. Personally I think they're both somewhere between "not great" and "decent", and they both suffer from RNG (either map and gen placement, or skill checks and who is found/tunneled first).
But for those who screamed about MFT being "giga broken" and fast track being "insane", it would also be consistent to say that batteries and fast track are overpowered. But I'm not seeing that personally, nor am I seeing anyone agree with the batteries part.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Obviously because of Fast Track… oh wait.
Survivors just need a secondary objective.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4067010#Comment_4067010
The problem is none of the perks you mentioned are permanent for doing your objective. New Fast Track would be more akin to killer getting permanent charges on each gen every time they get a hook, or permanent hindered for every down.
Batteries included and fire up are literally exactly what you said: killer brings the perk, and gains some permanent bonus when the survivors progress their objective.
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@hiki said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066985#Comment_4066985
The issue always lies with SWF teams. They could deliberately prime a generator and then gain a massive advantage by transferring that progress with Potential Energy
I already said not to leave it in, bugs should be fixed. But having a gen that only takes 10 seconds to complete is a manufactured scenario you aren't going to see in a normal game.
Just waiting to get the still checks to pop up at all to apply FT stacks would complete this gen in a normal match if they weren't letting it regress in between for exactly this test.
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You have TTV in your username, do you have a vod or video of this match?
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Certainly doesn't seem intended, nor is it going to be feasible to that degree in an actual match. Getting that many tokens applied to one gen takes conscious, active effort by all 5 players.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066822#Comment_4066822
I've been dying to try a build like this in a 4man just to be the most unbearable players ever lol
I was kinda surprised, honestly. I love playing the "screw with scratch marks" build with lightweight and lucky break. But testing ghost notes instead was impressive to watch them disappear.
My friend was running a fairly small loop and the scratch marks were disappearing before she finished the circle.
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I ran it for about 30 straight games to try it out. I got value I think twice, as in: got it to work, didn't immediately get downed myself, and it made a difference later on in the match.
There were maybe 5 or 6 times I used the perk but it didn't make a difference later on (someone else died first or we all escaped). There were a couple times I could've used it for value but didn't get to unhook or was across the map on a gen kind of thing.
And more often than I got value, I think 3 of those I got tunneled out myself and couldn't physically use it.
So, my personal experience is it's very situational and not worth bringing most of the time.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066760#Comment_4066760
"Because what happens when you have a consistent game direction and design is that the community isn't creating it for you. The loudest voices can't just scream and shut down months of development"
Once upon a time they did just have a goal, implement it, and too damn bad if you hated it.The notorious update 6.1 is a good example, the SBMM change as well. I think the last couple of years though it has been just as you said - the community is making the decisions for them. Couple of reasons I think. First, they probably didn't expect this game to last this long so they think if it's not broken, don't fix it. And second, I think new player retention is probably very low, so their focus is on keeping the long time players happy so they stick around, keep buying, and keep the game trudging along.
The notorious update 6.1 is a good example
I actually believe that the 6.1 patch was when BHVR stopped doing this, coincidentally.
Because prior to 6.1, the community mindset was "gens weren't worth kicking", and the game was pushed toward killers constantly being in chase. So much so that even the 3s animation was considered a waste of time. Not to say that things like camping and tunneling didn't exist, but it was at least lesser.
And all of the meta perks at the time had chase as a core component: ruin, undying, tinkerer, lethal, BBQ, and I'm sure I'm forgetting one or two. These all pushed killers in the direction of "leave hook alone and go push survivors off gens", which I personally think was far more fun (for everyone), much healthier gameplay, and inherently slowed the game because juggling survivors kept them off gens.
All of that disappeared in 6.1, and BHVR "listened" to the community and just nerfed the meta to shake things up. Lopped of the top of the most used perks and just tossed random changes in to fill in the gaps.
I sincerely doubt that anyone actually designed the gen kick and 3 gen metas. Or if they did, they should be fired. Because simply asking the base level question of "what should gameplay look like" would give you the answer: probably not fighting for complete control over the objective at the expense of player interaction.
And the fact that it took a year to fix it also indicates that they had nothing to look to for "how should the game look", because the answer should've been "anything except that". If they had an idea of how gameplay should look, it wouldn't take a year to realign with that game direction.
Genuinely, I think that patch (largely) was the start of the community dictating have direction to BHVR. BHVR did make changes, but it definitely was not a good change for the game, at least not gameplay wise. It might've been profitable, apparently.
And, that's not to say everything was bad in that patch: removing DH for distance, Conspicuous actions, and base kit BT were desperately needed and healthy changes. But the community to this day still thinks of the game as controlling gens first, instead of player interaction, and I think that was absolutely for the worse.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066790#Comment_4066790
"noed guarantees 4 Downs in end game if all survivors are still alive"
equivalent would be NOED gives you at least an easy down in endgame
I said exactly the value that Fast track gives to survivors, I didn't say they will 4 escape because of it.
Regarding your "issues"
You already did the math to assume the person hooked isn't on a gen.
I did math for 3 survivors, on the screenshot all 4 survivors had fast track. So someone would need to not be on gen while 4 other survivors get hooked to lose the value of Fast track.
You can die with charges.
With 3 charges? sure. Otherwise if you get tunneled, you are not getting charges. If you die with 9 charges you screwed it.
You can dump charges into a gen that's already almost finished.
I will tell you a secret. You can choose to not hit great skill check.
You can have all 3 final gens with charges added, only one of these actually matters.
True, but one of them will still get done faster because of fast track.
You can choose to put all of them into one gen too…You can be at cap doing something other than a gen when someone is hooked and those tokens are wasted.
You were not working on single gen while other 4 survivors were hooked? Yeah, not even Fast track can save this level of useless.
equivalent would be NOED gives you at least an easy down in endgame
I said exactly the value that Fast track gives to survivors, I didn't say they will 4 escape because of it.
No, you are assuming maximum value out of the perk. That's not always feasible or correct, especially when we talk about how matches play out. Noed getting 4 downs in end game is maximum value, but you, and I, and everyone else understands that you aren't going to maximize the value every time. (This is also, coincidentally, a perk that "punishes survivors for doing gens").
The real question with all of your "objections" here, is what actually changed about how this perk works? Because, honestly, every single one of your "issues" with the perk are the exact same thing it did before: on hook, survivors get gen progress. In fact, in the past, it was more advantageous to just use the tokens as you got them, since you were finishing the gen anyway. Especially when you just have 90 seconds free to complete the gen in its entirety.
Now though? Best use is to save it for a particularly challenging or difficult gen. Like the last 3, or what I refer to as the "screw you" gen that one side or the other has decided to throw the match to defend. Because the only difference in the perk is that now instead of raw progress, it gives unregressable progress. That's completely useless if you're given 90 seconds to finish a gen in peace, which is the majority of your objections.
Tactically, you want to save to max stacks and tackle a more challenging gen, whether that's the last one or two, or map/rng specific (like a single person gen or lobby of RPD or something). Because, the way the perk works, the only thing that even comes into play now is completely dependent on the killer kicking or regressing that gen. If the killer doesn't do that, then there's functionally no difference in how Fast Track works now, compared to before. (Everyone agrees it wasn't good before also).
I feel like that's the disconnect between how I'm viewing this and how you're arguing. In comparison, it's a bit like Potential Energy: like, sure, you could save up progress and then dump it immediately on the same gen you're currently working on, but if you have the time and freedom to just finish the gen anyway, you're almost always better off saving the ability charge/tokens for later in a place that it might actually have an impact. For PE, you're absolutely better, and for Fast Track you're arguable better as well. (As you said, "or you could just not hit great skill checks"… which is saving it for later)
It's a resource. And it's sometimes the right call to use it immediately, but it's also sometimes the right call to save it for the unknown of "later". That's why the specifics of how the match plays out is pretty important to this discussion. But for all of the hand wringing and pearl clutching, all we have is a screenshot of a game the killer lost (or threw) and no one is even bringing "in my game tonight" to the table. I haven't noticed an issue with the perk in my games, but I guess I'll have to pay attention and keep track of the nothing tonight.
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I tested this with a friend last night in customs and yes, they stack.
My scratch marks only lasted about 4 seconds while exhausted.
I'm going to be running ghost notes, lightweight, vigil, and sprint burst tonight if I get a chance to play. Might be my new go-to over Lucky break honestly.