AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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Yikes. You'd think based on some of these responses that h the topic was bringing back old dead hard for distance or letting survivors carry a pallet around with them or something.
This community continues to frustrate with the insistence that kicking every gen on cooldown or tunneling the first thing that moves is supposed to be "genius tactical strategy" that should never be inhibited or changed in any way, yet also the idea of "I should let the person with we'll make it unhook instead" is somehow a ticket to impossible games and shouldn't be allowed for people to even consider as an option. Come on.
To topic: yes, you shouldn't have to expect your teammates to be literally psychic to be able to get value from your perk. Even simply allowing survivors to see each others loadouts would go a decent way here.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056251#Comment_4056251
Okay, where was the thesis present early? Because you're asking people to wade through a lot of other nonsense to try and dig out what you meant.
It was present early, coordination increases repair uptime, and percentage repair bonuses scale with that uptime. Reexplaining the same point later doesnt mean it suddenly appeared there, it just means it was spelled out more clearly the second time.
You're confusing the argument with the conclusion. Examples, evidence, reasons, etc. establish why a conclusion should be believed
The examples were the reasoning. They showed coordination → more simultaneous repair uptime → more total repair time benefiting from percentage bonuses. Thats not confusing argument and conclusion, thats literally how arguments work.
Here’s an example of pretending away.
Nothing is being “pretended away.” Whats happening is that examples are being treated like they were the entire thesis, and then the clarification is being treated like a contradiction. That only works if you ignore what the examples were illustrating in the first place.
Your argument isn't making math sense.
The math is actually very simple: percentage repair bonuses increase progress per second of repair time. If coordinated teams spend more total seconds repairing simultaneously, those bonuses apply for more seconds. More seconds × the same percentage bonus = more total progress. Not exactly advanced calculus.
Increasing the speed at any point of the equation can net the same result. There's nothing unique about the final element
Except the “final element” is a continuous objective that applies every second survivors are repairing. Earlier steps like heals or chase duration are conditional. Treating conditional boosts and continuous uptime scaling as identical is the part that doesnt make sense here.
Otherwise this is just back to the same issue - some perks provide small, easy to gain value, others have situational but large value.
Right, and the point being made isnt that gen perks are magically stronger in isolation, but that percentage based repair bonuses scale directly with sustained repair uptime. When coordination increases that uptime, the total value extracted from those bonuses increases too. Pretty straightforward interaction.
As a logical argument, it fails without a math explanation that can then be compared to other possibilities.
The comparison variable is total coordinated repair time. Apply a percentage bonus to a larger amount of repair time and you get proportionally more total progress. That’s the math being referenced, not a hidden spreadsheet somewhere.
if we're not discussing the potential SWF benefit of finding gens, what mechanic do you think SWFs are able to use that gives them more coordinated repair uptime?
Communication and coordination reduce overlap, improve splitting, and minimize downtime between repairs, which keeps multiple survivors repairing simultaneously more consistently. That’s the mechanism, not some mysterious hidden tech, just coordinated efficiency being applied to a continuous objective.
The math is actually very simple: percentage repair bonuses increase progress per second of repair time. If coordinated teams spend more total seconds repairing simultaneously, those bonuses apply for more seconds
This might make sense if infinite gen time existed, but there are only 5 necessary gens on the map.
You complain about deja Vu specifically, which is a 6% increase. That saves 5.1 seconds off of a single gen if that gen is one of the 3 selected and that survivor completes the gen from 0 to 100%
It doesn't save more time if that survivor is solo or in a group. It's saves 5.1 seconds max. Period.
Which is why stuff like this doesn't make sense:
The comparison variable is total coordinated repair time. Apply a percentage bonus to a larger amount of repair time and you get proportionally more total progress. That’s the math being referenced, not a hidden spreadsheet somewhere.
Gens are fixed times. The maximum bonus is already the worst case scenario here. There's no "extra gen time" on this percentage.
What you're really wanting to complain about is survivors being efficient, which still isn't necessarily a group problem. Solo survivors can be efficient, and grouped/SWF survivors can be inefficient.
Your entire argument here is completely flawed because of this one fact:
You are cherry picking one stat from this take and ignoring the overall statistic. Overall, SWF is balanced now.
Roughly 40-42% for the entire population, regardless of group size, and the largest escape rates being held by solo survivors.
Because you, and many others, see this chart and only focus on the number you want to see: that the smallest group of players (4 mans) in the highest skill tier of the game (top 5%) escape slightly more than the rest of the 99.5% of the population.
But that's all we're talking about here: maybe 0.5% of the population. Since 4 man SWF is about 10% of all players, and "high MMR" is already the top 5%, so 5% of 10% is 0.5%. probably not exact, but we're still taking about far less than even 5% of the total population here.
Which is really sad, that with maximum skill and extremely high level of coordination that players can still almost-but-not-quite achieve a fair game.
And we should never be balancing solely around the upper-most, top end of anything. Otherwise we need to discuss win streaks also. You don't balance for that, you balance for the overall population. And the data shows that they have done that now.
You are working backwards for this entire encyclopedia of text, starting with your decision that survivors should be nerfed, and you think gen speeds perks are the issue, and coming up with anything you can to try and rationalize that.
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Zombies are already annoying in indoor maps with hallways that can make them basically unavoidable. Taking one or both of them for a walk is already slowdown.
But the real question here is: if you have 3 zombies and Nemi it stops being asymmetric and is 4v4. Are you really wanting to balance this character that way?
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056069#Comment_4056069
Not saying this is common, but it's certainly possible for killers. This isn't possible for slugs.Were all of the perks to do so removed from the game? If not, then yes, it is still "certainly possible" even if not "common." The problem is these perks now have zero reason to ever be brought into a match and nobody ever wanted to invest in that safety net anyway, but its easier to focus on the slight possibility of a survivor messing up their positioning when actively delaying the end of the game to taunt when they could take a micro step forward and just leave.
Honestly kinda tired of the absolute cherry picking that goes on with the exit gate, when the crux of the whole situation is quite literally the survivor's to lose rather than the killer's to win. All of it predicates on the survivors to be overzealous in their taunting to the point that they leave an opening for a mistake, and not that the situation is entirely within their control to even remotely fail at. Just leave and take your win instead of coming up with obscure hypotheticals involving handing a turnover on a silver platter as some kind of gotcha like a killer W/Sing until the hatch spawns underneath a survivor isn't also equally both technically possible yet wildly improbable requiring the planets to align just right.
Were all of the perks to do so removed from the game? If not, then yes, it is still "certainly possible" even if not "common."
I didn't run anything of an end game build whatsoever. Franklin's still makes people drop their item, even if it doesn't drain the charges.
So yes.
And my point here is essentially exactly that: this is all base kit for killers. You can hit people out without any perks whatsoever. On every killer.
Honestly kinda tired of the absolute cherry picking that goes on with the exit gate, when the crux of the whole situation is quite literally the survivor's to lose rather than the killer's to win.
This is still a pvp part of the game. In fact, I'd argue that in a properly balanced pvp game that capitalizing on or even forcing errors from your opponent is a core part of the pvp.
The killer has options. You can force them out and shorten your timer and even have the chance to capitalize on mistakes and overconfidence. You can go ignore them completely, and possibly lure them from the exit gate entirely. You can go earn BP.
None of that is available to slugs. The PVP is over for that scenario, there's no base kit mechanic, no capitalizing or forcing mistakes, no way to earn BP or even ignore them entirely since you can't physically even get away.
There is a difference between "I have no options and the game is actually over" and "I have options and think the game is over, but I refuse to even acknowledge those options exist".
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056010#Comment_4056010
It's not trolling, and it's not hairsplitting. Survivors have the option to abandon, Killers have the option to push Survivors out. Both roles have options. It really is that simple.
You're the one hairsplitting by saying stuff like, "Survivors can just crawl." Sure, we do have that option, but we don't have to do that any more than you have to stand at the gate and watch the Survivors teabag.
The other main difference with this is that killers can still obtain kills in "exit gate" situations. Especially overconfident and cocky survivors will make mistakes, or leave the exit gates entirely.
People can't tell me that they haven't gotten the right angle even once to backflip a survivor back toward the map. Because the benefit of being the "power role" is occasionally getting to be the one who dishes out the "find out" part.
I still remember a game almost 2 years ago now where I struggled as pig and just opened the doors for them. But they all stayed in to make sure Nea for her hat off before leaving. I didn't even care about securing that kill, so I just was waiting in a jungle gym nearby and they came to throw pallets and I kicked them without really committing. Until Feng made 2 mistakes, one that let me get a hit in and she dropped her flashlight because franklins. She was so unconcerned/overconfident that she turned around to get it and gave me a free down more than halfway through EGC. I turned that mistake into a 2k.
Not saying this is common, but it's certainly possible for killers. This isn't possible for slugs.
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055892#Comment_4055892
Yes, it would stop them from humping. Crawl to the hatch, end the match, gg next. Why is that so difficult? You want to waste time lying there crying while the Killer is taking a walk, that's on you.
You have a very fundamental misunderstanding of how these systems work.
If even one survivor is standing, then neither hatch nor abandon is available (survivor humped for 4 minutes).
If hatch is available, then only the slug remains. They get humped until the killer moris them even if they get to see hatch, if they didn't have abandon as an option.
Every killer, base kit, can force survivors out or simply go break pallets and earn BP. Neither of those options are available base kit for slugged survivors. There's not even an equivalent of either of those for slugs, which is why they went with abandon as their imperfect, but better than nothing solution here.
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This is a bug that surfaces about 3 times a year for some reason. There's something in the spaghetti code that just always spawns every possible pallet after a patch until they can hotfix it shortly after.
It's not intended, and it's not going to be permanent either.
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Just get rid of the lobby entirely imo. Show survivors each other's load out in the match in the escape menu.
At that point they're already in the match and disconnecting already incurs a penalty. It doesn't need to be complicated
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So... there's no correlation between hook grabs and tunneling. Hook grabs were removed as part of their "weaken face camping" whenever that was.
We had plenty of tunneling before and after hook grabs were removed, and I see no significant change in tunneling because of it.
Arguably, having no hook grabs at all should have made for a better target. Because now, instead of grabbing, you injure the unhooker and interrupt the unhook. So you have the choice between two injured survivors, but one has unhook protections and the other doesn't … and people will still choose the unhooked survivor and power through endurance to get that survivor out of the game faster.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052156#Comment_4052156
Base-kit endurance, base-kit haste, base-kit anti-camp, and extended hook stages. Four off of the top of my head. You're not worth any further time.
Double dipping endurance and haste separately is a stretch, given that the mechanic has always been "base kit bt" that included both. This is like if someone counted bloodlust 1, 2, and 3 separately.
The hook timer isn't a "second" chance if it's the only chance. Especially since the alternative is instant death (which did exist in 2017).
You deliberately mention talking about tunneling specifically, in a thread about "tunneling and slugging". Anti FACE camping isn't a second chance against tunneling. No one's taking about camping at all. Well, except you, apparently.
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@CatFish said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4051799#Comment_4051799
I think the main idea isn't to make all killers 9999h nureses .But to simply make many weak killers more solid for the game.
Sure, but the devil's in the details is my point.
They already did spend time over the past few years on this. Not all, but there was about 2 years where just about every mid chapter touched on 2-4 killer kits, mostly the lower tier killers.
Now, a lot of that was qol, and some wasn't, but they made a lot of add-ons fully or partially base kit in the process. Those are the kind of things that "make killers more solid for the game".
But apparently it's never enough, at least not for some people. That's the reason for my question.
Because making sweeping changes that affect every killer, like weakening pallets, making maps smaller, or increasing hook density, are also things they've done, but does nothing to "change the rankings" so to speak.
Generally, I'm looking for an example of a solution that would both be impactful but not completely game breaking, or break the identity of the killer (ie "trapper blink").
Most threads like this just leave it as "buff them", which many killers have individually, or collectively, depending on the patch. If those don't count, then what would?
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4052127#Comment_4052127
It seems your downplaying just how fast 24-27 seconds is. You do know that a survivor going to 2nd hook stage takes 60 seconds right? 24 seconds is extremely fast in terms of gen speeds. Like super fast. Unless you know exactly where they are at that point they start it. Your not gonna stop them unless they were late to the party.
Well, first of all, hook states are 70 seconds. Maybe lurking near a hook waiting and just allowing 3 other survivors to do gens isn't always the correct play every single time. That's a lot of free gen time killers seem to consider "time well spent" that's really just doing nothing.
Second of all:
Last official chase time we were given. One minute, on average, for an entire match, is not a lot. So keeping people in chase is easier than ever. Survivors can't do gens in chase, last I looked.
Third: This magical scenario you've concocted for "24 seconds" takes a full suite of perks, multiple survivors, those survivors doing gens inefficiently by grouping up, and using single use items. This is not possible all game. Stop pretending that this is "the norm". It's an extreme outlier, that almost never actually occurs in normal games.
You're doing the equivalent of pointing to the "2000 kill steak blight" and screaming because you think that's somehow every single match. And it's not.
If you genuinely want to combat the most common form of gen rushing, then leaving the hook alone and chasing the only survivors who can physically touch gens is the answer. Lurking near a hook for up to 70 seconds and allowing survivors to do gens for free with no pressure is the most common form of "gen rushing". And yet people defend the killer in those situations nearly every time.
Edit: autocorrect
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Buff them how? That's really the only question that matters here.
Because, the real answer is unless you give them blink or dash, trapper can never compare to nurse. You could make trapper base movement speed 150% and we would still have the "but nurse can blink between floors and trapper has to use the stairs". That's how you get "dashslop".
And they tried something like that with clown having effectively permanent haste and it was broken.
Not to say that you can't individually improve killers, or add qol, because you can and they have. But there's a big difference between "trap setting speed improved" and "gens are blocked for 5 minutes at the start of the match" or something.
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I think a replay system is way beyond what the game can handle since it wasn't designed with that in mind from the beginning.
But a post game timeline highlighting time stamps for gen completions, injuries, hooks, healing, etc might be doable and interesting.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050840#Comment_4050840
again, another flat out lie….non participation in avoiding the objective. I have repeatedly said i do not avoid the objective, i do gens, unhook a good looper so they can buy me more time which benefits them and me so its mutually beneficial. i do hexes if i come across one. my advice to you would be to first understand what the difference is between a rat that hides in the corner not doing anything and a player that does the objective while not being seen. Then you might understand a new way of playing lol. if you cant understand basic principals like that (which im pretty sure it was you that thought people were getting banned last year for doing the objectives) that would explain why you fail to understand how the game works.
if you cant understand basic principals like that...
you fail to understand how the game works.
Yeah. Totally not calling people idiots without simply avoiding that word.
I also sincerely doubt that you play the game completely and exclusively for yourself at the expense of literally everyone else and then claim to be completely altruistic and "I'm only trying to help" on here.
"Trying to poison the well as much as you can so you can continue to play the way you are now" is a much simpler explanation that is also more consistent with your actions. It's a shame that the rest of us can't get a better game because of it, but that's also part for the course I suppose.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050493#Comment_4050493
I would love to see where I have said anyone that doesn't do that is an idiot... It's once again lies spread by someone that can't accept facts so they spread slander and false information, as I have never said they are idiots.
I do agree that if you can't put forward a reasonable argument then it's best not to argue and ignore me living in ignorance....it's better than making up lies claiming I said something I never said which also discredits any argument you may come up with. I mean why would anyone believe the argument of someone that lies and gives false information?
This might be the most pedantic response I've ever seen, but here: no, I'm pretty sure you've never said the words "you're an idiot" at least not on these forums.
But what you do tend to say, in almost every conversation you can wedge yourself into is roughly this:
"Tunneling is a skill issue, you just have to hide." "The killer can't tunnel what they can't find"
And since "hiding" is literally the first thing a new survivor will do, this is incredibly condescending and patronizing from you at best.
Did you use the exact word "idiot"? No. But treating literally everyone who isn't you as though they're complete morons for not "figuring out" what would otherwise be the simplest thing in the game is doing exactly that.
It's just that most people have an ounce of empathy or consideration for other players and are seeking to win as a team and not just "screw you. I got mine".
We've tried hiding, it isn't consistent. It certainly isn't consistent once you've been found. And I have never seen an entire 4 man escape without even a single person being found once. It doesn't work on large scale, which is what nearly everyone tries to tell you about it.
And your response, nearly every time, is to treat us like we're the idiots.
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@Trex_Crazy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050546#Comment_4050546
Yes, thank you for the insight since you are curious as to possible situations I shall list some, though it is not all inclusive. Though since you know at leas of the camping scenario I will leave that one out.
- we've got four survivors alive all on death hook the killer is currently chasing one survivor which not only leaves the aforementioned two survivors but actually includes an addition third survivor to assist with the last gen or open the second exit. There is of course a variation on this where they are chasing the third survivor and the fourth survivor is dead.
- The killer just hooked and killed a survivor leaving two left he is now about 16 meters away from a survivor working on the last gen. The last survivor sticks the gen and it gets completed, taking a hit in the process, and because the S2 was at thegate waiting he is able to get it open before the killer has a chance to down the original survivor. (though I must admit this scenario actually only has one survivor with zero pressure on them so it doesn't technically fit your criteria)
- The killer is doing rounds on the last three generators (now this scenario can actually have up to four survivors with zero pressure on them and, you're going to love this, doesn't involve camping!)
- Now this is actually a variation on the first scenario. There are four survivors and the killer is actually semi-chasing two of the survivors (which if you notice leaves the other two survivors pressure free!) as the killer picked up one survivor and the other flashlight/pallet saved.
- Now in this scenario we have one survivor hooked, another in chase, and would you believe it that leaves two survivors with zero pressure.
This list is not all inclusive and there are many more. Now to further elaborate on your proposed situation if the killer is camping a hooked survivor wheter or not the exit gates are being opened really isn't a concern since they cant do anything about it anyway (as they're busy camping)
While I am not oblivious to the sarcasm dripping from your post here, my point is that there is likely room for the killer to do something differently. Complaining about survivors being efficient is very common, almost as common as not examining your own gameplay to look for inefficiencies.
And you can tell you aren't looking at your own gameplay since you immediately rattle off a list of "possible" scenarios, and not "this is exactly what happened: match 1: XYZ, match 2: ABC".
You're too focused on the "camping" part as a literal statement. I meant "camping" as in "not using time effectively" or just generally "doing nothing but calling it gameplay". In other words: being inefficient.
But let's look at these:
- "four survivors alive all on death hook". The only way this happens is by properly juggling survivors. You're intentionally keeping on in chase, one on hook, and letting one go for rescue… leaving only one person actually free to do gens. Now, they may be able to "greed" the rescue and go for the door instead, but then you have a 2 minute timer with effectively 2 survivors on hook, and the other 2 can't leave without giving you kills. I consider this to be a great display of killer skill, actually, since this isn't easy to pull off, nor is it common, but I somehow doubt you're playing to 12-hook like this.
- You already admit this isn't what I was talking about.
- If you're actively doing rounds while the last gen finishes, then you missed at least one, probably several, indicators of where people are. Notably, one of those gens being almost finished, or at least having progress. Even if you've not been in that part of the map recently, you've certainly seen other gens and can rule out that they're "not due to pop soon". So instead of "patrolling", you should know where at least one survivor is, roughly. If you have one person on hook and are desperately struggling to find your next target, there are info perks that will cut down on that inefficiency. You shouldn't ever be in a late game scenario and have literally zero idea where any survivors are (i.e. your "4 survivors with no pressure").
- How long has it been between chases for this one? Because somehow the killer is in chase and hasn't hooked anyone recently. It's a made up scenario, so it'll be whatever gotcha you want to make, but in reality if the hook was "recently" then you have one on hook or recovering and someone had to rescue, if it was "minutes ago", then I think we both can identify where the inefficiency is here.
- I think you meant this to be part of #4, not its own hypothetical.
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@Firellius said:
What is the problem, exactly?
Survivors are being efficient with their time. Sounds awful. BHVR plz fix immediately.
I'm curious what the killer is doing where at least 2 survivors have zero pressure in this scenario. I'm guessing camping.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4050476#Comment_4050476
You can't just declare yourself the winner of a discussion when you show up with no evidence, but rather just tell other people how wrong they are from your point of view and hope they just concede lol
Unfortunately, imo your wasting your time on this one.
This particular individual has been in other threads proclaiming that they hide as their primary survivor strategy, allow their teammates to die so they can just get hatch, and declare anyone who doesn't do this to be an idiot. In fact, they've admitted that their teammates are just tools and fodder for their own experience.
In short, they're part of the problem. This is partly why survivor sucks and why games seem hopeless in the first place from the start. They contribute to the problem, actively, and proudly, and encourage others to make the problem worse.
I generally recommend using the forums ignore feature here and saving your breath.
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The only aspect of the first that seems unfair is likely also just a bug. That's where his m2 attack can hit you even if you're on the floor above him.
Again, that doesn't seem to be intended and will likely be bug fixed, but that is the only real issue I've seen so far.
Although, he's pretty good at shutting down a loop entirely, which means the only actual counter is the dreaded "hold w". I don't personally find that problematic either, but it seems to trigger a number of people here that survivors aren't just running face-first into every anti loop killer they release.
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I haven't seen any feedback like this, at least not in the forums here yet. I'm sure there's one guy somewhere, but I'm not seeing even a single post about it, let alone outcry.
There were, for example, at least 5 posts about Steve's voice/scream. And a couple "X seems to be bugged", but the only one with the new killer is inconsistency with using the vine attack and latency.
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Interesting that you crap on tinkerer as "bad" because it's "only one use per gen" yet pallets are generally one use per match.
If a trapper cant start with every trap in the game then why do survivors get a double god pallet setup with 2 pallets right next to each other
If we're nerfing survivors to meet "trapper level" then I guess your "blight and ghoul" should also start with no power until they can slowly collect pieces of it strewn across the map?
I can think of exactly two maps that have "2 god pallets next to each other": Midwich clock tower - currently bugged to only have one pallet right now, and Gideon near the basement. So two indoor maps with nearly zero vaults and a heavily fixed layout. Midwich is also the most killer side map in the game, and Gideon is somewhere in the middle of lethality.
Most pallets are already weak enough to be unsafe for survivor as it is. You don't necessarily have to kick every single pallet a survivor drops.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4049154#Comment_4049154
Im sorry but this is an awful take when gen progression has leaped into another multiverse by comparison, maybe if you're against baby survivors who don't know what a generator is. Gen regression perks are generally pretty awful and yet still very commonly taken and that should tell you everything really, that killers are generally short on the one thing they actually need, time. Which they dont have because gens are flying because gen progresion outstrips it.
I would actually like to not feel like i need to bring regression to actually have a somewhat enjoyable game and therefore have more perk variety, however it happens. 90% of perks just might as well not exist for killer tbh.
killers are generally short on the one thing they actually need, time
Absolutely, though the reason for that, interestingly, always seems to be external.
People don't examine their own gameplay to find out where they are wasting time, or where they might be able to improve. Slapping on 4 slowdown perks, taking 2 minutes to start your first chase, kicking gens at 10%, then getting your first hook 4 minutes into the game and screaming "gen rush" because the other 3 survivors have touched a generator instead of standing around admiring the scenery.
And we know for certain that killers waste time like crazy because camping and tunneling is aggressively defended. Standing near, or lurking near a hook, where the hooked survivor physically cannot do gens, and just allowing the other 3 to do whatever they like for up to 70 seconds at a time (hint: they're doing gens).
All of that time is invested on the one and only person who can't do gens in the match, and yet it's a massive amount of "doing nothing" for the killer.
Tunneling at 5 gens is literally just deciding to leaving 2-3 survivors alone and forcing the match to be a race to see if you can get 3 hooks on the first person you see before about 4 gens are done.
If and when that works, then the killer wins and gets to declare themselves a "Max MMR genius master of strategy".
If that doesn't work, then survivors are likely to escape and we get posts like this screaming about gen speeds.
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Rushing hooks, tunneling early pressure, and prioritizing fast downs are logical responses to gen rush
Tunneling at the start of the game isn't a response to anything.
In DbD, gameplay is driven by the killer, and survivors respond to what the killer does. If the killer is AFK or otherwise non existent, then survivor gameplay becomes "do gens and leave".
So when the killer decides to spend the first 5 minutes of the match wandering around blindly, kicking gens at 10%, taking almost 2 minutes to even find anyone, and then stand around admiring the furniture with someone on hook … the other 3 survivors have nothing to do other than gens.
You can't call anything a "strategy" if you aren't considering how your opponent responds to your actions. If the strategy is "focus on one person" and that also allows the other 3 survivors to do whatever they want.... Then you have no room to complain that the other 3 survivors are doing whatever they want... and working on gens.
Because that's the complaint here:
If people want longer, more interactive matches, that discussion should start with survivor strategy,
No, it's not survivors fault the killer isn't chasing them, or pressuring the player off of a gen. The survivors' default action with nothing else to do is to do gens.
The game is a race between first elimination and gens because the killer has chosen to do that.
And literally every single time survivors have anything that they might choose to do voluntarily instead of gens it gets complained about and nerfed also. Boons, fog vials, protection hits and body blocking, flashbang/background player, buckle up/ftp. All of that was survivors choosing to not do gens and interact, yet killers demanded that those things get removed. Then act shocked Pikachu when people go back to doing gens instead.
killers adapting
You use this phrase more than once, and there's nearly zero evidence of killers needing to adapt. Tunneling is the very first thing a 0 hour killer player will try to do, and can continue to do until 10,000 hours.
It's doesn't matter what survivors do, or bring, the killer who decides to tunnel will tunnel someone out. (And, because this seems to always come up, killers can stop survivors from doing gens. Survivors cannot stop a killer from tunneling)
Every single time killers meet with anything that resembles friction (or, entity forbid, lose a match) they complain until the "perceived slight" gets deleted. That's not adapting, that's forcing the game to adapt to you.
And it's all so that people don't have to change and can continue camping and tunneling as the only thing they ever need.
Tunneling at the start of the game is something that people not only think they need, but scream and demand that it remain the same. And trying to limit that in even the slightest way was met with such extreme pushback it was pulled immediately.
That's literally a loud portion of the community screaming "we can't adapt, change nothing" and because of that the devs fell in line and did nothing, specifically so you didn't have to adapt to change.
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@Classic_Rando said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048436#Comment_4048436
I didn’t “move” anything. Kill/escape rates and queue times are very much linked together, not mutually exclusive. The 60/40 ratio has led to much more balanced queue times during peak hours, which is exactly what I am aiming for if I am BHVR.
Kill/escape rates and queue times are very much linked together, not mutually exclusive. The 60/40 ratio has led to much more balanced queue times
2v8 alone proves that this analysis doesn't work the way you want it to.
Escape rates are higher in 2v8 and queue times are terrible, but not because "killers aren't playing" it's exactly the opposite: survivors don't want to queue up.
By your metric no killer would touch 2v8, yet it's the most popular game mode this game has ever seen. At least for killers.
Which also is more evidence that survivors don't generally care as much about "winning" as much as the gameplay.
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@Classic_Rando said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048310#Comment_4048310
Here to support the unpopular opinion that balance needs to be based on the queue times because that is the most objective way of measuring how much relative fun is having. The only opinion that seems to get you upvotes in this thread is “I’m not having fun playing survivor, so please nerf killers and no I don’t care how it affects the experience of those players”.
Your first post here argued that the game was balanced because of the target kill rate. Now you've moved the goal post to arbitrarily choose queue times.
Sounds like you've already decided in the answer and are desperately searching for a rationalization for that.
I'll also point out that queue times are a horrible metric to choose, not just because they vary between regions and time of day, but also because short queue times is specifically the function of the matchmaking system. So, defending matchmaking here is certainly a stance.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048104#Comment_4048104
The problem is when we try to talk about making the gameplay fun for killers, the conversation gets an overwhelming amount of pushback.
Excessive hiding is unfun for killers, and we we SUPPOSED TO have a phase 1 update to address this problem, but survivors complained they are "just trying to survive", and got the entire thing nerfed so badly that BHVR might as well just revert the AFK crows to what they were before phase 1.
Bully SWFs are unfun for killers, but if people try to talk about that, we get told it's not really a problem, or "at least they aren't doing gens"
Gen rushing is unfun for killers, but if people try to talk about that, we get told "it's not real" or "that's not what gen rushing is"
Being forced to slug isn't fun for killers, but if people try to talk about that, we get told "slugging is worse for survivors" or "it's not really a problem"
Voice comms and SWFs aren't fun for killers, but if people try to talk about that, we get told "you can't punish people for playing with friends"
So really, when people say "making the gameplay fun", the vast majority of the time it's really "making the gameplay fun FOR SURVIVORS ONLY"
Excessive hiding is unfun for killers, and we we SUPPOSED TO have a phase 1 update to address this problem
We did. In fact, they updated the afk crow system and closed some loopholes like dropping your item excessively or barely moving. Those updates still exist. They also deleted distortion.
The initial release of updated crows was so overtuned that it gave the killer free intel simply by having survivors play the actual game, then it was tuned down to only target excessive issues... Like the one you're complaining about now that was addressed at least these 3 times.
Bully SWFs are unfun for killers
Well, double locker saves got nerfed into effectively being non existent. Maps were made smaller and hooks respawn for free to remove dead zones.
Actually problematic interactions like conviction gaining a charge by healing yourself have been addressed. Buckle up ftp also removed and reworked. Not to mention targeting things like removing the upper rpd library to prevent issues.
And on top of that, there's an abandon option for the killer if no one has completed a gen in 10 minutes.
Gen rushing is unfun for killers
Gens got extra time, survivors spawn together, prove thyself and BNP were nerfed into obscurity by demand, and most importantly, chase times were reduced substantially.
Unfortunately, the biggest contributor to "gen rushing" is that killers not only insist, but demand that "standing near a hook supervising the only survivor who isn't doing gens and can't physically do one" is the only strategy they need... Which also leaves 3 survivors completely alone to checks notes do gens for free.
Shame we couldn't fix that one for people.
Being forced to slug isn't fun for killers
This one is so general your just complaining to complain. Again, they made hooks respawn and shrank maps. Hooks are available, so they already targeted this.
If you're referring to survivors trying to interact with the killer (i.e. flashlight save) they nerfed flashbang and background player.
Not to mention that complaining about survivors choosing to voluntarily interact with the killer means they aren't on gens. So you're complaining about survivors doing gens and complaining about survivors not doing gens. Do you see a problem with that mindset?
Voice comms and SWFs aren't fun for killers
Not really sure what you want done with this. They already demonstrably showed us that even a 4 man SWF is only escaping 40% of the time on average. They actually did balance SWF, and have the stats to show that.
So, in all honesty, they've actually addressed these concerns for you.
My main problem is that any time a thread like this comes up to discuss survivor issues, we get a handful of the "usual suspects" who want to derail the thread to talk about killer issues. This thread has already been derailed, in fact.
And it's that kind of derailing that causes every one of your concerns to get attention (even if it's not enough attention for your liking) and gets things like anti tunnel scrapped within seconds after waiting 10 years for a meaningful solution.
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@Classic_Rando said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4048073#Comment_4048073
”They could honestly make the kill rate 90% and if they found a way to make the game actually fun for survivors to play while losing then people would likely not care about the kill rate stat.”
No, “honestly” that isn’t true at all. People complain about the game on both sides because they lose more often than they think they should. You are trying to make this way more complicated than it is. I understand now why the devs have such a difficult time making the game “fun” for people when they are getting such nebulous feedback about what makes the game “fun”. People are going to have more fun if they are winning and not losing - it’s quite simple.
People complain about the game on both sides because they lose more often than they think they should.
I think you're over generalizing this.
Sure, everyone has different motivations, and there are people driven by "winning" on both sides here. I won't deny that.
But, in general from what I've seen, people who play mostly killer are obsessed with winning and people who play largely survivor are looking for good gameplay regardless of the outcome.
And that good gameplay has mostly taken a back seat, or been outright sacrificed, for the sake of this kill rate stat.
The kill rate itself is proof of that. Survivors are dying 60% of the time on average, escaping 40%.
So, even by those numbers you're far more likely to die (lose) than escape (win) on survivor. Your thesis here doesn't hold water for many people. If survivors only cared about winning this game would've died simply with this one metric goal.
Arguably, the game is strained already, and things like disconnects, giving up, and "go next" meta all point to major issues, but that's not just because of losing constantly.
The gameplay sucks, sometimes even when you win. Sometimes doing what it takes to win sucks more.
But we can't talk about making the gameplay fun, apparently, because we might have to actually fix some things, and that might impact the Almighty kill rate for a month or so. We can't have that.
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@Classic_Rando said:
”Playing survivor feels like you loose content every update, like you get punished for playing this side and you keep getting nerfed while killers get buff after buff. Some killers are way too OP and are still untouched, which is so questionable to me.”
What content have survivors lost recently? How have survivors been nerfed recently? How have killers been buffed recently? You’re listing very general complaints with no specifics.
From an overall balance perspective, average survivor escape rate is exactly where the devs want it to be, unless of course you are in a 4-man SWF at high MMR then average escape rate is significantly better than the target 40%.
How often are you escaping? If it’s less than the 40% average, then it’s simply a matter of improving your own skills because based on the stats the average survivor can escape 40% of the time. If you’re at or above the target 40% escape rate, then this is not an issue of balance, it’s an issue of you not feeling like 40% (or better) is good enough. You’re entitled to that opinion, but BHVR has to balance around the overall satisfaction of players on both sides. We have seen what happened in the past when escape rates were higher. There were fewer people who wanted to play killer and consequently survivor queue times during peak hours were way higher than they are now.
Edit: so great to see that, as usual, an unpopular opinion gets downvotes with not a single person actually willing to offer a constructive counter argument. Much easier to just lob downvotes anonymously than take the time to make a point.
Fine, I'll bite. But your post and edit has some serious "fight me" energy that doesn't feel like you really want a discussion.
These two things are likely why you're getting down voted, because it's incredibly tone deaf and comes across as oblivious:
What content have survivors lost recently? How have survivors been nerfed recently?
Styptic and syringe reworked and deleted, making every medkit effectively just "add more charges" and nerfing one of the only two items even with bothering to bring.
Speaking of items, fog vial is still soon enough to be "recent" and lasted a whole week between being introduced, then nerfed twice and functionally deleted from the game. You can't even bring this item to chaos shuffle.
Anti tunnel was most of 2025 discussion, and the top survivor complaint since the game released a decade ago. Not only was anti tunnel effectively scrapped due to "feedback" in the first 48 hours it was even able to be tested, the only thing that actually went live was a nerf to OTR, so tunneling got effectively buffed instead. This is a pretty massive middle finger from the devs.
Similar thing with tenacity and anti slug. No anti slug implemented, but they nerfed tenacity and only just this just recent patch put it back.
Pallets got screwed up over time as they weakened loops and maps over years. They finally went to fix it, went too far in some cases, and reverted most of it within a month or so. Still have bugged maps and areas where pallets are simply not spawning at all. May or may not be intentional, but state of the game right now is more dead zones than there were 3 months ago on certain maps.
From an overall balance perspective, average survivor escape rate is exactly where the devs want it to be,
The stats don't matter. No one cares what this number is.
What people care about is that the game currently sucks, it's not fun pretty regularly.
They could honestly make the kill rate 90% and if they found a way to make the game actually fun for survivors to play while losing then people would likely not care about the kill rate stat.
But many indicators are that the devs don't know how to make the game fun while doing that or simply don't care or think about that aspect.
But the fact that more than half your post is shoving this stat in people faces is missing the point. The gameplay isn't fun, so telling people it's intentional and designed that way says that you're not hearing the actual complaint here. And neither are the devs.
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five players are matched and no one knows who will be chosen as the killer.
Friday the 13th did this and it failed, both as a game and a game mode concept.
Turns out, when you have several players who all want to play killer then they didn't actually want to play out the match when they get the short straw.
The game was plagued with people quitting as soon as they found out they didn't get killer. Which would still happen if they tried this in DbD, just with people not trying and giving up on survivor instead.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046907#Comment_4046907
Why are you comparing high MMR nurse players with low MMR newer survivors? That is exactly the same thing as comparing high 4-SWF 6,000+ hour voice comm teams with low MMR newer killers.
Average MMR killers should be compared to average MMR survivors. And average MMR Nurse players generally don't have a really good kill rate (which is shown in official stats).
Why are you comparing high MMR nurse players with low MMR newer survivors?
I can tell you didn't read a thing I wrote, because my examples of this are to show why you shouldn't be basing balance decisions based on potential on the character alone.
Nowhere do I compare killers to survivors. I compare killers to killers. I didn't even mention survivors except to wonder why you're jumping on "SWF", and clearly your just trying to curve the conversation that direction since you haven't responded to any of the points I've made debunking your claims and being up things I never even said.
I also use nurse as an example of how you could use add-ons to target a particular group (new nurse players) without significantly impacting other groups (veteran nurse players who don't need the indicator).
That is exactly the same thing as comparing high 4-SWF 6,000+ hour voice comm teams with low MMR newer killers.
It's not though. Especially since
A) the data we do have is that SWF is not significantly out performing anymore, so I'm not sure why this even comes up. People don't suddenly become better at the game when grouped with friends. And that's what the data says.
B) I'm not comparing survivors to killers at all. I'm comparing nurse players with thousands of hours to nurse players with 4 hours. This is just you trying to turn this into an us vs them, when it isn't.
C) no one has ever put forth a single idea that would "nerf SWF but leave solo completely the same". This is just a dog whistle phrase for "need survivors entirely" but that sounds far more entitled.
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Basically everything you list here has an opportunity cost of taking a perk slot. You have to choose to bring that ability over something else, and most perks are situational. So you may bring unbreakable but never be slugged in that match to use it.
If you really choose to, you can run with no perks also. Though I'm not sure why you would want to.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046886#Comment_4046886
If killers should be balanced around potential, then survivors should be also balanced around potential, which means balancing survivors as if they were all 4-SWFs that use voice comms for competitive callouts.
And if the new player experience should be balanced around potential, then when new killer players complain about survivors being too strong, then we should automatically focus on the 6,000+ hour 4-SWF survivors that use voice comms for competitive callouts.
I'm not saying balance around potential at all.
The "tier" ranking system that this community is obsessed with is entirely and purely subjective. It's only vaguely a measure of power scale, and honestly more a measure of how strong people think something is than how strong it actually is.
What you actually use to balance anything is objective data and stats.
Which is why you can separate the data for something like nurse and say that, at high MMR nurse can be nearly unstoppable on a small, open map, and at low MMR newer players struggle to perform. That's what the data says, why her (all MMR) kill rates seem low, despite her still being considered "one of the best killer in the game".
And there are sometimes ways to make changes that target particular skill levels. Nurse specifically has the Flannel add-on designed to help newer players, who can use it until they no longer need it. Alternately, changing something like hug tech affects the top end of players and largely doesn't impact her players at all. Though this isn't always possible to "target" and changes usually impact more than one group or all players.
Not surprising that you jump on SWF, given your history, but even there the data says that groups aren't performing significantly better than BHVR wants them to. In fact, the most recent data sites that there was a weak correlation to doing slightly worse than solo in a group.
Which is why we should use data and not subjective anything.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046842#Comment_4046842
Yes. If someone complains about playing against "S-tier" Nurse killers, but the game reveals they were playing against average MMR Nurse players, then the survivor didn't play against S-tier Nurses, and instead just played against average Nurses, which usually don't have a really great kill rate.
Does everyone remember how much complaints Nurse got every week, before her giant list of nerfs happened? The reason why the complaints went down so much, is because the reality is that her performance usually isn't very great in the majority of the public games.
I would be bold enough to say that the majority of players would do better playing as Myers than Nurse. This game desperately needs to have a separate tier list for average MMR, so the majority of players can actually have a tier list that is relevant to them.
If someone complains about playing against "S-tier" Nurse killers, but the game reveals they were playing against average MMR Nurse players, then the survivor didn't play against S-tier Nurses, and instead just played against average Nurses, which usually don't have a really great kill rate.
This is now the second thread you've posted in where your argument is essentially "ignore any feedback unless the player is the best in the game".
Personally, I don't think that ignoring the average player (or really any level of player) based on skill level is warranted. Something can be more or less difficult to deal with base on player ability, yet it may or may not be easy or feasible to adjust for every skill level. For example, new player experience is important too.
You're also using "s tier" in two different ways. Almost always this is a measure of potential. The killer kit is s tier, regardless of the player's ability to use it. But you are also arguing here that new nurses are not "s tier".
Don't confuse ability for potential, because otherwise you could argue that nothing in the game is "s tier" or "good" simply because new players exist. (Which., for the record, would include broken things like old dead hard for distance, for example).
how much complaints Nurse got every week, before her giant list of nerfs happened
I'm going to need you to write out this "giant list".
Because there was exactly and only one nerf to nurse, about 2(?) years ago now, where her blink attack went from being a basic attack to a special attack. The end result was that she went from being s-tier, best killer in the game, to still s-tier and either #1 or #2 depending on how you subjectively place blight. The horror.
The only other change to the character since 6.1.0 was removing lightburn, which was a buff.
Any other changes to the nurse are from like 7-8 years ago when she had 6 blinks. Or things like "she gets base 5% regression on kick and anti gen tap" that applies to all killers.
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We saw the uproar and outcry over simply the PTB to limit tunneling and how outage people got.
I think that they understand at some level that those reactions wouldn't even hold a candle to the reaction people would have to revealing MMR to players.
Because revealing to people who think they're "Max MMR" and "struggling because the game is broken" that, "sorry, you're actually silver fighting like crazy to break into gold while the deck is actively stacked in your favor" would actually cause people to melt down and quit.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4046060#Comment_4046060
Idk what it is about MMR and people assuming/needing to be in uppermost. God forbid you fall to your actual skill level. It's really not that serious. Like who cares about your MMR? But people really cling to it.
This doesn't apply to everyone, but the loudest voices seem to also have a gigantic amount of ego invested in this game.
For some people, the foundation of game balance conversations starts with the "fact" that they are the second best player in the universe (the content creator they worship is obviously better).
Because if you start with the assumption that "I am a god at this game", yet find yourself struggling, then the only conclusion that allows both of those things to be true at the same time is that the game itself has to be broken. Massively broken, despite the data and evidence saying otherwise.
And we see this a lot on the forums: the first time someone struggles, or entity forbid, loses a match, they come here and complain about the usual suspects:
"SWF is broken and needs a nerf." (Because they're obviously max MMR and that's all the game is giving them, despite their last match being 4 randoms who are simply better at the game than they are).
"You have to tunnel to win/have a chance." (Because that's what their content creator idol says, and how comp dbd is played, and they're clearly at that level. Yet it's also the only tactic that they understand and can execute with any consistency, and also boosts them to a higher MMR than they can actually handle. But if you truly believe that you're the second best player ever, then even considering that you're boosted by simple tactics is insulting, which is what we tend to see here.)
Gen speeds are too fast / 2-3 gens are done in my first chase. (Because there's zero room in their mind that they could improve in any way, they're gods at DbD, remember? It wasn't that it took them 60+ seconds to find the first survivor, or that they dropped chase to kick a gen at 8%, no no. Those options are off the table because they start with the premise that they're the best. The game must be broken, nerf gen speeds.)
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4045972#Comment_4045972
The point is the gen speed argument is garbage, which you are proving with all this. They do it regardless.
If KRs drop, killers can finally get needed adjustments, since the stats are probably horribly inflated by tunneling. It would be the best thing to happen to the game. If people in this community can't handle changes that improve the game overall then they can fly free.
It would be the best thing to happen to the game.
The one caveat to anti tunnel that isn't actually hard, but they would need to do a soft MMR reset if they ever decide to actually do anything.
But genuinely, this one issue being meaningfully addressed for the first time ever would fix a lot.
Killers, despite their angry and loud insistence otherwise, would actually adapt to other play styles and actually try other strategies for once. And, assuming they MMR reset, it wouldn't drastically lower kill rates except for the few killers who might actually need help.
We can finally address the killers who need help individually.
And, most people who are dedicated to "tunnel life 4 ever" would realize that playing against opponents actually at your skill level means far less sweaty games, and you'll still kill about 60% of the survivors. You'll just not be constantly boosted at the maximum of your personal skill all the time (which isn't necessarily max MMR).
You can actually have chill games and demonstrate all of that skill, game sense, and game knowledge by getting away from "the first thing you try at 0 hours being the only strategy you ever need for the next 10,000 hours".
(Edit: forgot the best part: that when you actually give more than 1 survivor something to do they aren't on gens. So discovering map pressure would also reduce "gen rushing" by simply not leaving survivors alone and then being shocked that they are doing gens instead of totems and chests)
Unfortunately, BHVR appears to only make changes based on being loud, regardless of how good those changes would be for the game, or how wrong those people are that they think they can't adapt, but would actually be just fine in the long run.
So the devs will never actually fix this issue, no matter how beneficial it would actually be for the game.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4045390#Comment_4045390
But we have YEARS of consistent data that never shifted.That's not true though. NL data used to be much closer to BHVR's numbers.
For example here's a post from September 2024 looking at the Nightlight stats:
Nightlight's stats are a few percent lower compared to what BHVR released, but they generally were in the same ballpark as what BHVR was reporting.
That's not true anymore. Nightlight's KR numbers have tanked from what they used to show, while BHVR still is showing KR's in the 60% range.
There's actually been a couple factors that influence this disconnect.
NL used to be the only source of start tracking, so people used it for personal stats more often. Then BHVR rolled out official personal stat tracking and fewer people rely on NL now. It was already a small sample size of primarily English speaking players, but now it's even smaller sample size.
Why bother going through extra hoops to upload games to a third party site when you can get official stats automatically with no extra effort?
There was also, around the same time, the abandon feature that was being misread by NL as escapes and deflating kill rates. Not sure if this has been fixed on their end, and most people have stopped relying on NL for anything other than info we don't get regularly (like perk meta and pick rates, which are still not a complete picture but not nothing).
BHVR official stats demonstrably have a similar issue where survivor escape rates and killer kill rates have both historically been higher than they should be because of abandons and disconnects being counted in... I'll just say "unintuitive"... ways.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4045485#Comment_4045485
this is the difference between survivor and killer. As a horror game, what sounds more appropriate:
- survivors struggle to survive and escape while hunted by a lethal killer
- lethal killer struggles to kill before survivors escape.
survivor should be harder, killer should be easier. Anyone picking survivor role should understand this and accept this role for what it is.
People love to bring up the "horror" aspect of the game, but only when it would benefit the killer or defend the killer sided 60% kill rate.
Because there's absolutely a horror trope where the survivors, or just the "final girl," kill the killer at the end. In fact, several of the killers in this game have that ending: Xeno, Ghostie, and Nemesis right off the top of my head.
Everyone wants the resident evil rocket launcher, but canonically we'd give it to Leon.
At some point, the "video game" aspect overrides the "it's horror" part.
Most people understand that giving the survivors the ability to kill the killer would probably not be great for gameplay, yet people still want (or expect) to 3k or 4k every match because "it's the horror theme".
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4044848#Comment_4044848
And then there goes killers that basicaly have build in slugging or camping because they cant do anything else like twins they can be played without slugging sure but they will be worse and feel worse than even krasue and at this point no one plays them because of how sluging they are and its annoying (for both sides), oni who just has very limited power gain and must cause the most damage with his blood furry because its timed and if he doesnt than he has no blood and cant have more powers fast which makes him pure m1 who has nothing and survivors just predrop and do gens which isnt fun so he must slug little bit but unlike twins his power has some reduction build into it so he cant slug whole team unless they arent so bad they give the slug directly to him (onis blood furry last 45 seconds and for each hit that instadowns he looses 7 seconds and this includes even when survivor has endurance effect and doesnt goes down so it still robs him and he looses 7 seconds).
Hag cant chase normaly because even in 2026 she is 110 speed killer (while having one of lowest pick rates with twins and artist) and her only option is to trap area and get some down with her traps and than just trap that hook to slow rescue or trade because she has no mobility (unless someone triggers her trap) and no chase power even lacks normal m1 speed she is just camping simulator because she was made like this its not players fault but more of her desing same as twins or oni.
So we have killers that are partly or just almost made around those things (strategies) no one likes and thats fact.
Slugging, camping and tunneling are situational, and you're intentionally conflating "situational" with "excessive".
No one is complaining about twins having to walk across the map to pick you up, or Oni finishing their power before hooking. People are complaining about slugging for the 4k and getting bled out for 4 minutes while being humped by the killer for no (gameplay) reason.
No one is built for camping or tunneling. If you're standing around admiring your trapestry you just spent a minute drawing on the ground then you're objectively awful at hag. You can use her power in chase as anti loop, you can use add-ons to extend the teleport range or even body block for you. Camping with hag shows zero imagination or understanding of how to use a kit, on top of just demonstrating how much time people commonly waste on "doing nothing useful" as killer. And I'm not even a great hag player, personally.
People choose to camp and tunnel on really any and every killer because it's simple and gets them wins against similarly skilled opponents. Which then boosts their MMR until we have people, like in this thread, who are so far over their heads that the "easy win" button becomes the crutch. They never learned fundamentals, or any other strategies (or when to switch tactics at all) and just hit the "tunnel harder" button while blaming game design.
Refuse to even consider adapting, absolutely shut down any attempt to limit these strategies, then project all of this onto "the other side". Usually in the most condescending way possible. And I mention that part because the "usual suspects" who have been pushing the "git gud to avoid tunneling" narrative for months are now here in this thread defending tunneling yet again. Shocking.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4042448#Comment_4042448
I mean. No.
There's no way of arguing even the overtuned aura reading tools in the game at any stage were passive at all, let alone insanely passive.
I think the only passive aura reading in the game right now is Lethal Pursuer, and coincidentally that's the one Distortion hard counters. Every other aura reading tool in the game has a trigger.
You could maybe make the argument for something like Undying being passive, but I'd like to do you the courtesy of assuming that isn't what you're saying here. Any relevant aura tool has both a trigger and a timer, often having a distance requirement as well.If you want a killer tool that actually represents the same idea and is problematic for the same reasons as old Distortion, it's Lightborn.
This depends a bit on what you mean by "passive".
If you mean "equip the perk and nothing else to get auras" then lethal, weave, undying, bitter mumur, blood Warden, Rancor, discordance, and territorial imperative would all count.
If you mean "equip the perk and do nothing different than play the game" then almost everything else is included, since most of the "trigger requirements" are things like hooks (bbq, gear head, Allen instinct), injuries (nurses, face the darkness), chase (I'm all ears, zanshin), downs (deerstalker), damage actions (nowhere to hide), pickups (awakened awareness).
In fact, I think the only auras that would require "playing differently than normal" on to of the perk itself is grim embrace, since you'd have to hook each survivor once to reveal the obsession. Which is kinda laughable because I forget it even has this feature if the game gets that far. Floods of rage, which requires specifically a scourge hook. Or darkness revealed, which "opening lockers" still could be "normal gameplay" for at least 3 killers. I'll add eruption, which takes a specific sequence of events (kick, then down) but, let's be honest, people don't run this perk for the "aura read" potential.
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The shield is an interesting idea. Kind of protects against regression but isn't always the "optimal pick", depending on the killers build, which I think is healthy. Similar to, say, bringing a medkit against Plague or something.
I've also considered a third option of a toolbox "locking in" gen progress. So, using the toolbox locks in the amount repaired while consuming the toolbox so the gen can't be regressed below that amount. Maybe 33% or something at most. And, to be clear: instead of increased repair speed.
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MMR is per killer. Killers you've never played before start at essentially your average rating and lowered slightly so you can learn them.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4040430#Comment_4040430
If I remember correctly hag was 15-16 when she got into ream so Idk whats it is all about it looks more like personal problem of fear seeing their favorite characters getting bullyed.
If we take it more “deep” than we have twins where you can as survivor kick mutant baby and dreadge is by lore to just a baby so Idk what its all this about, there are many games where you can play as characters that arent 18 and if its problem I guess its been already solved by devs (like someone metioned something about shery above).
we have twins
The devs have, at least in the past, been insanely clear and intentional that Victor is the same age as Charlotte and have shut down any reference to Victor being a "child", "baby", or "toddler".
The community may refer otherwise colloquially, but officially Victor is a thirty something adult trapped in a malformed body horror existence with his sister.
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Not that I agree with this choice myself, but didn't they do something similar with Cheryl from silent Hill?
Iirc she's like 16 in the original game but they intentionally "aged her" to 18 in the DbD lore to avoid exactly this problem.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039919#Comment_4039919
exactly. "allowing it for everyone regardless of the circumstance, or simply not allowing it at all."
Thats what i have been saying from day 1 and what many killers are suggesting. Allowing it for ALL, including killers. which is why killers feel hard done by, survivors are allowed it but killers are not.
while survivors can skip the mori sequence, killers should be able to skip the gate sequence.
while survivors can skip the mori sequence, killers should be able to skip the gate sequence.
While I'm not a fan of abandon in general, these aren't equivalent.
The Mori is literally a cutscene because the match is already over, the end game (even the collapse) is playable time because the match isn't over yet.
There's a massive difference between "the game is literally, actually over" and "I could play this out and even have the base kit ability to cut this short if I wanted to, but I don't want to do that."
You might as well complain that people are skipping end game chat for all the relevance that has to "gates are open".
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Could be animation breaking or it could just be to prevent dribbling.
I know things like vault speed were capped because stacking it caused animations to break when hitting a certain speed.
Used to be, even before my time, that the DS skill check took something like a few seconds to spawn. So killers would "dribble" survivors by picking up, taking a few steps, then dropping them again to prevent the skill check from spawning at all.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4039118#Comment_4039118
no one said anything about hiding to avoid being tunneled, i have said many times i have been able to loop the kiiler so long that they abandon chase which means the killers tunneling doesnt work. Your saying there is no skill in looping? no skill expression in the game at all because its all luck and you think that someone like me can be lucky that often, match after match, for years which is the reason why i dont find tunneling an issue….. lol what can anyone say to that mindset? hope your luck improves?
no one said anything about hiding to avoid being tunneled
You did. In this thread, first page. "killer cant tunnel what they cant find."
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4038742#Comment_4038742
its realistic for the ones that need a full build to counter it. not every one does need a full anti tunnel build. my point is if someone is complaining about something, knowing what the solution is, knowing what perks counter it and the choose not to set them then they cant really complain.
Basekit counters include
- stealth, killer cant tunnel what they cant find.
- looping, a killer tunneling a good looper often leads to them losing the match or abandoning chase which stops the tunneling.
- the team as a whole is basekit for survivor, body blocks, unhooking at the right time, flashlight saves just to name a few.
If these basekit counters are not enough then there a number of perks to help, if one or 2 perks dont help then yes a full build is needed for that player.
Killers are in the same boat and i think the same way about killers when they say "we shouldnt have to use full slow down perks"… if basekit pressure and basekit tactics fail v basekit gen speeds or gen rush builds then yes absolutely they should use a slow down build. Thats what the perks are there for, to help players counter a specific situation they are struggling with.
Basekit counters include
stealth, killer cant tunnel what they cant find.
looping, a killer tunneling a good looper often leads to them losing the match or abandoning chase which stops the tunneling.
the team as a whole is basekit for survivor, body blocks, unhooking at the right time, flashlight saves just to name a few.
The reason your narrative here isn't resonating with people outside of you and one other person (as far as I can tell this is the sum and total of "others who [supposedly] have no issue with tunneling") is because none of this reliably works in practice.
Conspicuously absent from anything you talk about is "being efficient with your time", like gluing yourself to a gen while the killer is tunneling. I.e. "gen rush". Which is the only true way to beat tunneling.
It really smacks of "how do you do fellow survivors" to encourage people to waste time being inefficient instead of "just do gens", which is the only real answer to tunneling.
When the killer decides to tunnel, survivors need to take that time with no pressure on anyone else and do gens as fast as possible. That's the actual answer you keep suspiciously dancing around.
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@Classic_Rando said:
Survivors’ only objective is to do gens and escape; killers’ only objective is to kill survivors. Nobody should be punished on either side for playing the way they want within the rules.
Tunneling doesn’t even work well against good survivors most of the time as you waste way too much time trying to chase and hook a single survivor three times.Survivors’ only objective is to do gens and escape; killers’ only objective is to kill survivors. Nobody should be punished on either side for playing the way they want within the rules.
The problem here is looking at it as a "punishment", which is the newest narrative for opposing anything to limit hard tunneling.
Because having limits on some aspects of the game makes sense. Survivors start the match together, there's an innate penalty to gen speeds when grouping up on the same gen, and most of the "anti tunneling" and "anti camping" perks or mechanics are just flat out disabled when the gates are powered.
Those already exist, and nearly universally are considered "common sense" limitations. Yet, if we apply the current narrative to them, it's literally "punishing survivors for doing gens".
And yet, when anything is proposed to limit even the most extreme examples of hard tunneling at 5 gens, people scream, cry "abuse" and "punishment" until it gets completely thrown out and discarded.
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Most everyone in this thread is answering the wrong question.
You didn't ask "why weren't they implemented exactly from the PTB", which is most of the responses. The changes weren't perfect, but could have been adapted, tweaked, or adjusted to be workable. They do this with nearly everything, including new killer releases.
Your question, though, is "why were they scrapped", and the answer is because the vocal minority wanted nothing impactful to be done. Don't iterate, don't change anything. Anything other than "buff killer" is unacceptable, even though that demonstrably doesn't work and makes the tunneling problem worse.
Most of the feedback is what i refer to as "deconstructive criticism". Not looking to improve the mechanics or make them better, but dismantle and tear them down until they would be either meaningless, moot, or gone.
It took me two weeks of asking people "I didn't get to test personally, how are these systems abusable?" Before I finally got a response that clarified with an actual explanation of a problem scenario. That person also provided a reasonable solution to that issue (a rare example of constructive criticism).
So most people were just screaming "abuse" seemingly without knowing why or understanding the system. It wasn't perfect, but they couldn't express why. It was entirely an emotional response in most cases.