AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066701#Comment_4066701
I mean pointing out hyperfocus stake out and toolboxes that's a similar problem (like you said). People are quick to jump to "well killers can stack regression why cant we have stacked gen perks with toolboxes?" Well because there's 4 survivors and 1 killer? And most of killers regression perks require either a hook, a kick, or a down vs toolboxes and some gen survivor perks like deja vu that are active immedately. So Fast Track just stacks to a already accelerated game from the survivor end. Sure the S tiers can keep up but throw in a pig,ghostface, or something of that nature. Since any progress is better than none it just gives another tool. Because it can remove charges from the gen while the other stuff is also speeding it up. So it does just seem like a frustration post of a killer who felt they couldnt bring the game back vs all that stacked progression.
Since any progress is better than none it just gives another tool.
That's the reason I brought up hyperfocus/stakeout in the first place though. If you could simultaneously bring every perk in the game it would be different, but you can't. You have to choose up to 4 perks so fast track is competing for one of those slots. It's not better than deja Vu or hyperfocus/stakeout for overall gen progress, so the only question is if you'd run something like resilience or exhaustion in that spot instead.
Running 4 gen speeds sounds terrifying, but you are highly at risk of shorter chases, being camped, tunneled, or slugged, and have no altruism bonuses to help others in those situations.
most of killers regression perks require either a hook, a kick, or a down
Most popular survivor perks are among the most restricted perks in the game. Deja Vu works right away, but you only get the bonus if you touch one of the 3 specific gens. I don't personally care much for stakeout, but it's because it seems like every time I try to run it I get wraith or something and physically can't get charges. I listed resilience, but you also don't start the match injured.
The whole point of items is to have limited charges. Killer powers are infinite use (with only a handful of exceptions) or have a cooldown. They tried item cooldown and people demanded they delete it immediately.
So it does just seem like a frustration post of a killer who felt they couldnt bring the game back vs all that stacked progression
I'm not seeing how the gameplay plays out where this is an issue. It hasn't been in my games. The biggest frustration for players is that the match is over in the first couple minutes. That's not a fast track problem.
Survivors having someone dead early is basically game over. The only way to fix that would be having a perk or mechanic like fast track that helps catch back up. So I guess i agree that this might help mitigate a losing scenario for survivors, but I think that's a good and necessary thing for the game. Not that we should be instantly tashing it or blaming every loss in 5 minutes and 2 hooks on the one fast track in the lobby.
When we get things like ghoul or clown, it's "wait 6 months to gather data and see", but I can't even convince people to wait 2 weeks and let people decide for themselves. Again, people see "gen progress", specifically "you can't regress this" and freak out. That's what this is, imo.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066701#Comment_4066701
5 hooks is 90% permanent progress, when all survivors have fast track. I would say that definetly makes that game faster. You really don't need many hooks for this.
With each hook you give survivors BNP with 18% permanent progress.
Thing is hyperfocus+stakeout you kinda need full build around it. Fast track is very good option to use even as single perk.
I don't think it's broken on level of MFT,CoH,MoM, but it is overtuned and quite an unhealthy design imo.5 hooks is 90% permanent progress, when all survivors have fast track.
You're completely ignoring anything about gameplay here. This is also a "doom scenario" where everyone is running the perk, but for sake of argument let's assume this is actually the best perk in the game and everyone will run it every match.
You're basically saying the equivalent of "noed guarantees 4 Downs in end game if all survivors are still alive". It clearly doesn't, and depends on gameplay, right?
So for fast track, there are tons of ways this isn't guaranteed value:
- You already did the math to assume the person hooked isn't on a gen.
- You can die with charges.
- You can dump charges into a gen that's already almost finished.
- You can have all 3 final gens with charges added, only one of these actually matters.
- You can be at cap doing something other than a gen when someone is hooked and those tokens are wasted.
No one is ever showing video to go with this. Demonstrating a problem. It's just more panic, and panic because, frankly, killers see "you can't regress gens" and lose their minds. That's what I think this really is.
The way most people complain in these forums they're talking about losing "2-3 gens in their first chase". Now that's not my experience, generally, but if you're at 2 gens with one hook, fast track isn't your problem and isn't going to be the problem.
If most people aren't losing 2-3 gens in their first chase, then why are we balancing around the few screaming that they do everywhere else in the game?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066761#Comment_4066761
Hyperfocus/stakeout, deja Vu, resilience, toolboxes, etc all function at the beginning of the match, when the game pace is most critical for survivors.
I think all of the Perks mentioned (or Perk Combination in case of Hyperfocus/Stake Out, since I dont think that Hyperfocus on its own is viable) are better than Fast Track.
When I tried Fast Track, I also used Hyperfocus/Stake Out. Which was probably a mistake, since I dont know which Perk did the heavy lifting, but it was probably the combo instead of Fast Track. I also want to highlight that Deja Vu is WAY better than Fast Track. Fast Track can save time quickly, but Deja Vu is just more consistent and I would say that the time saved by finding Gens quicker (especially if Corrupt Intervention is involved) is more valuable than the Gen Progression of Fast Track.
If I play some tonight I'll try it out. Clearly I missed that in the recent patch notes, but I've been playing around with other builds since some of my friends are playing again.
Deja is certainly more consistent value. I'll try some fast track and FT+deja tonight and see.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066724#Comment_4066724
This is live. The perk has been buffed for a week now.
wdym other things are better than relying on hooksThis is live. The perk has been buffed for a week now.
Ok. And not everyone has the PTB. So everyone on console and many pc players even are seeing it for the first time and trying it out.
People usually try the new thing for a week or two and then drop it if they aren't seeing consistent value.
wdym other things are better than relying on hooks
I know it's probably pretty hard to see anything other than a killers perspective, but survivors will largely gravitate back to perks that don't have "killer is winning" as an activation cost.
Hyperfocus/stakeout, deja Vu, resilience, toolboxes, etc all function at the beginning of the match, when the game pace is most critical for survivors. As with most things in DbD, waiting for perk value until the killer has 3 hooks means the game is probably already over.
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this game has been eating away at my mental health and I just can't for now
Sorry to hear this. Taking a break is a healthy choice and you can always choose to come back at a later time. No game is worth your mental health.
It just seems like the devs care more about making a buck
I definitely agree with this, and I think there's another issue that largely gets overlooked about this game: there is no actual design philosophy of DbD.
What I mean there is that the devs don't appear to have any cohesive direction that guides the game design internally.
BHVR never seems to ask the question "how do we want our game to be played" and balance or design around that. BHVR appears to ask "how do our players want to continue paying us for this game we have".
Something like path of exile (grinding gear games) puts a ton of effort into game design. They have such a clear idea of how they want their game to look that they put out "development manifestos" which are huge, lengthy explanations of most every detail of a game mechanic or system to explain why they did it the way they did, and why they steered clear of doing it any another way. And while I don't always agree with their choice, I at least can understand where they are coming from and see that they have thought through every detail and nuance.
BHVR does not do this. There is, from the outside, zero direction for the game - aside from "do what makes money". That's the only thing that makes sense with what we see regularly here.
Because what happens when you have a consistent game direction and design is that the community isn't creating it for you. The loudest voices can't just scream and shut down months of development work because you should be able to address those concerns with "this is how we want you to play the game, so it's fun and fair, and these changes support that desire and design".
I don't believe BHVR has ever done this. They don't know how people "should" be playing the game, because the design is apparently "do whatever makes money". They have no answer to "what does the ideal match of DbD play out like". DbD is more of a creative sandbox for "do whatever you want as long as you're buying things". And you can see this in other games they've done (specifically death garden and meet your maker) where they do the exact same thing, just haven't lucked into a fun gameplay loop.
They cater hard to community outcry because they have no idea what the game should be, but they know what people will continue to pay for.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066701#Comment_4066701
Im not the killer in this match. Vee got hooked 3 times. And since everyone had fast track. Survivors got 54% perma gen progress for free. And because everyone had it there's nothing the killer could do about that. It's lose-lose
This is a random solo queue lobby, just putting it out here since there's people in this thread that think nobody is using it.
And yeah hyperfocus and stake out does a lot but fast track is comfortably supporting this busted combo. But it's also effective on its ownIm not the killer in this match.
Hard to tell, since you posted just a screenshot with zero context or comment.
Survivors got 54% perma gen progress for free.
This depends a ton on how the match went. If all the gens were finished as vee died, then there's almost zero value from fast track. This isn't guaranteed value, and it highly depends on how the match played out.
It's also pretty unlikely to get that much value if, say, all survivors used their tokens on different gens (say, last 3 gens), which is more likely to happen in solo q where these players don't even know anyone else has it.
But again, with zero context or video, were just taking your word for it.
This is a random solo queue lobby, just putting it out here since there's people in this thread that think nobody is using it.
People are going to use it to test it on the public test realm. Whether they continue to use it depends on if they get value from it or not.
Just like many of the people have told you here: several people's personal experiences have been that the perk isn't that great, and other things are better overall than relying on hooks
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You had 11k BP, and the survivors who escaped had about 18k... 7k of which is escaping.
You can't have had many hooks this game. Which not only means fast track did almost nothing, but you also only had 2 perks for most of the match for the same reason.
Hyperfocus/Stakeout and toolboxes did almost all of the work here. With the only real variable being how long you spent earning your power or dry kicking gens.
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I think skill checks are more of a test to see if you're still awake for 90 seconds of effectively a loading screen.
Personally, I like the idea of having a skill ceiling that is higher than the skill floor. I think this game sometimes suffers from game design issues where people expect to pick up the game and have instant success with no friction or learning curve. We see it on both sides with new maps and new killers (playing as or going against) where some players seem to expect to instantly master it and never struggle or have any difficulty.
I think that's both a mentality problem and poor game design when they cater to it. Some people seem to expect that slamming their face on the keyboard should win them games, and it seems to be lucrative for them to allow that occasionally, for better or for worse.
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@MeduSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066238#Comment_4066238
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JI3XJQOE1ZCE/30114.jpg
My guy I don't know what you are smoking but comparing a 5% speed boost around already finished generators aka the area the Killer is supposed to avoid and get away from as fast as possible with the Survivors getting 20-30% of their main objective for free because the killer is doing his main objective is wild.
If everyone is going against "god tier" survivors like they claim to be, then smart survivor play is to run the killer away from gens in progress. So, toward completed gens.
You're also conveniently ignoring end game, where all gens are completed.
The only reason I bring up this perk is because it's the closest equivalent: a perk that one side has to bring in the first place, that perk "punishes" the other team for doing their objective. You seem to agree that batteries isn't good, and neither is fast track.
20% of a gen is 18 seconds for a perkless survivor. So either your chases are less than 18s and you're decimating everyone already, or your chases are longer than that and you're already losing 20% of a gen for each chase (hook).
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Batteries included is the closest example you're looking for.
Survivors are "punished" for doing their objective and the killer gains 5% of permanent haste, which is on record as one of the most game breaking effects this game has ever seen. I think it actually breaks the fabric of reality, since 3% was enough to be life altering for some people.
They're not good perks. Turns out, having a condition that you're losing the match isn't that great.
Because you're not comparing it to anything. By the time the killer gets 4 hooks, survivors with 0 perks at all can already do more than 20% of a gen in basically every scenario, without hooks.
This community blows my mind sometimes. People scream as though 4 gens are done in their first chase every game to defend having to tunnel like their life depends on it, then as soon as something like this gets changed slightly, suddenly every match is 12 hooks or bust. It can't be both, and we know hard tunneling is meta for years (see 9.1 PTB meltdown).
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@ArcT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4066184#Comment_4066184
So it's good at the high level?
No, survivors just don't get hooked and tunnelling is the meta anyway, so there are minimal hooks before deaths and survivors that want to gen rush will bring perks and items that let them immediately bust out gens with zero preconditions or setup required.
So it's good at the low level?
No, survivors need to run anti-tunnel perks just to survive, if they're even running meta perks at all, and still doesn't help when someone's tunneled.
So it's good for…
When a killer is spreading hooks, and the survivor hasn't hit any great skill checks in like the last five minutes. You know, gen rushing.
Seriously here. I feel like half the people running it are doing so for the same reason that they run the Stegull, just because they know it upsets a certain insufferable slice of the playerbase. You practically need to be playing perkless Trapper, purposely spreading hooks, just to get not even more, but as much value from this than virtually any other gen perk, and all the people complaining the loudest are the same ones who indignantly declare that they would never spread hooks because that's loser behavior.
It's a perk.. This isn't some base kit mechanic.
What will happen is what always happens with this like this: people will play around with it once it goes live and see for themselves how it is. They will likely determine that it's still garbage, since losing the match for a bit of gen progress pushes in comparison to just running something that either gives gen progress, or extends chase to give everyone else gen progress.
Most people will stop using it within a week or two, except we'll have to see a couple tik tok highlights of "omg an unregressable gen" with 5 players working together (3 of them dead) to make this happen.
And if no one is running this perk, if isn't doing anything... and it certainly isn't punishing anyone. If someone really wants to try and claim they're "tunneling because the #70 used survivor perk might be in play" they're (spoiler alert) lying, and would just tunnel anyway.
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So I'm not sure why people are up in arms about this, aside from the usual "survivors can't have functional perks" issue around here.
The part of the perk that hasn't changed is the "gain gen progress per hook". So, this perk already has that activation condition, and it hasn't changed. Fast Track is currently sitting at #70 most used survivor perk, just below diversion… so the only people being "punished" are Yun Jin players going for adept.
I'm pretty sure people are completely blind to the "while losing the game" part of this perk. Did you know, that once all survivors are dead the killer can no longer regress gens? They're completely blocked from doing so. Sounds pretty broken.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065654#Comment_4065654
Telling someone who plays DBD for years and played siedge that he cant handle online games is biggest lmao I had in time, I have stomach for more things even things some cant handle on this forum even imagining it, thank god for them all these things or almost all are banned here by rules.
Im here against this hypocrisy of one side leaving game after loss immideatly as that person wants while other cant, endgame collapse is 2 minutes if they arent downed or hooked and on these 2 minutes I can have another game.
It's 2 minutes if you do nothing, or go get BP, or spam power.
It's far less if you hit them out. And as someone who actually doesn't give a ######### about crouching, and you claim not to, I have never actually seen a full 2 minute end game collapse with the gates open. At least not with 4 survivors standing.
I hit them out. And doing so I've actually forced mistakes and extra kills because of it. And anyone who truly has thick skin has surely done the same over a long period of time.
Those are options not available to slugs. In fact, it's not even available unless very specific conditions are met. I had a match recently where I'm not sure what his issue was, but the slinger tunneled and slugged Nancy it for 4 minutes until she bled out. Threw the game for it, since we did gens. But she never got to abandon since 3 people were still standing. Pretty ######### gameplay for everyone, honestly. But still possible even right now.
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065038#Comment_4065038
"Because of the fast track changes killers will run full gen builds"
Holy! They did long before fast track changes! This argument doesn't really apply now.
People apparently saw this change coming 4 years in advance and have been preparing their whole career for this moment.
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@cogsturning said:
Punishing people for other players' actions is absolutely wild.
And the fact that it's done this since they launched it. Pulled briefly due to complaints, then they just snuck it back in with no patch notes...
And it still does this.
Potentially punishing the player in the real world, for how their opponent chose to play is unconscionable to me. Game development malpractice.
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@SadakoSlay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065021#Comment_4065021
I edited to include batteries but I'll say it again. Batteries isn't strong. It's haste bonus is really small and it only works for a small area around gens. And guess what, batteries has counterplay. Survivors can just run away from completed gens and loop somewhere else. Done. Guess what doesn't have counterplay? Fast Track. Again please think before bringing up random perks that aren't a part of the conversation nor add anything to it. These perks are completely different form Fats Track. If you don't think they're an issue then don't bring them up and dilute the conversation with nonsense please.
Also you clearly aren't reading what people are telling you so allow me. Fast track is bad for the game because it punishes killers doing their objective and because it punishes killers playing nice. That last part is most important. If a killer doesn't tunnel or slug they get hit by fast track way harder than if they do. Fast track punishes killers for playing nice and hooking survivors as many times as they can before sacrificing someone. That is unhealthy perk design. People want less slugging and tunneling, and yet they also want more perks that encourage that exact playstyle. You can't have you cake and eat it too.
Batteries isn't strong. It's haste bonus is really small and it only works for a small area around gens
Coincidentally, fast track isn't strong either. I think people really aren't considering that gaining charges on hooks is really, literally, a losing battle.
Fast track is bad for the game because it punishes killers doing their objective and because it punishes killers playing nice. That last part is most important.
I've argued for years that the game should discourage players from just making it a race to the win condition. Unfortunately, BHVR strongly disagrees. Or at least, the loudest voices disagree, and BHVR immediately caves to that minority.
At this point, I've had to accept that the devs actively want the game to be a race for faster games, with more pressure to do everyone's objective as fast as possible. I strongly disagree with that direction, but my voice falls on deaf ears here.
Personally, I think that the game needs to be slowed down, including things like limits to early tunneling, progress, healing, and regression caps, possibly base kit corrupt or even an early game collapse system. Rework most, if not all perks that impact charges, including things like gen speeds and healing speed, for example. I think the game would be more fun to encourage killers to chase survivors and focus on the pvp aspect of the game.
It's apparently far more lucrative to lean into power and scope creep. So, instead, killers spend their time admiring the furniture of hooked survivors, and/or tunneling as hard as possible while relying on perks to slow or regress gen progress. Survivors either get chased to death or sit staring at a progress bar until the first person dies and the only "interactions" until it's 1v3 are perks.
That's the big, neon lights message from them pulling 9.1 PTB instantly. They don't give one single ######### about incentivizing "fair play", if anything they're actively driving everyone toward speed running, since that's the play style that the most vocal parts of the community lives by. These are the people who "will quit if you touch their beloved play style".
That's the game BHVR is making, for better or worse. I think it could be a much better game than that, and has been in the past, but this is what drives their decisions these days, and the direction they keep pushing toward.
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@SadakoSlay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4065004#Comment_4065004
Why on earth are you comparing fast track to any of those perks??
Fire up gives killer a small buff, nothing major. If it was a haste increase per hook it would be an issue, but it's a small increase to random actions. Survivors now even have a perk that works like with Flow state so what's the issue?
Also Hex Wretched fate is as the name suggests a hex. A hex has counterplay because hexes can be cleansed. Fast Track can't be cleansed. Hope this helps.
I said it, but I guess I'll spell it out for you: these perks also fit the definition of "punishing your opponent for doing their objective". I even said they were low pick rate and not valid to worry about.
I use them to point out that things like fast track are cherry picked and encouraging language used to make them sound atrocious, when the reality is likely they are just mediocre.
Interesting though,
If it was a haste increase per hook it would be an issue
You recognize that haste is a good result, but conveniently left out "batteries included" in your response. That's not a hex, and gives haste. Are you implying you think this is an overtuned perk also?
I don't really agree with that. But it does fit with the "punished for doing your objective" narrative that I was working to dismantle by using these as hyperbolic examples. I'm sure you'll come back with some off the cuff reason why this doesn't count either.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064988#Comment_4064988
I present to you, 3 Survivors in my latest match:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0KEOGATPDWRZ/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SXZQXT925F3R/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J117A81DFSVQ/image.png
Just because you're not seeing it, doesn't mean the rest of us aren't. Hyperfocus has absolutely surged in popularity recently. It's the 29th most used Survivor perk in the game as per Nightlight. It also boasts one of the highest escape rates of any perk. If you filter by escape rate and then discount perks with low sample sizes (I discounted anything less than 100, but even that is generous), Hyperfocus sits at #14.
I don't understand the preoccupation this forum has with downplaying how strong certain Survivor perks are.
recently
You even agree this is a recent trend.
People panicked about this perk when it hit the PTB in July 2022. That was 3.5 years ago. There have been years of panic over this perk that have been absolutely unfounded and unjustified.
I'm not saying it's a bad perk, but any perk that provides literally any value whatsoever has been complained about every patch for years. Someone in this thread that I responded to brought out weaving spiders as though that's anything choose to a good use of time. But it might, possibly, do something, so it must be an issue.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064988#Comment_4064988
I think in another case though theres also the argument of "who is this perk trying to punish" if you perfectly split hook the perk gets the most value at 3% per hook or whatever. So a 4 split hook gives at least one person 9% progress. Which is something I guess but make that a full split hook game the perk adds up. Vs just taking someone out in 3 hooks then you only have to worry about the 9% but someones dead i guess lol. Its relying on the split over the tunnel which I know they cant make every perk balanced around splitting but its what killers probably would like to do because it keeps everyone in the game longer.
I think that looking at everything as though it's a punishment is not a good approach. If that were the case, then things like conspicuous actions, or DS/OTR disabling in end game wouldn't exist since those are literally "punishing survivors for completing their objective". And, for the record, those are good things that should exist.
Why does this victim mentality only seem to come up when a survivor perk might be useful, sometimes, even or especially in very narrow circumstances?
Why not worry about batteries included? Or Fire up? Or even Hex:Wretched Fate? Why does this "clutching your pearls in horror" reaction only ever apply to survivor perks instead? Surely all of these also belong to the category of "punishing you for doing your objective, even if the perk pick rate is nearly zero". Where's the outrage? (It's unfounded, because getting bent out of shape about it isn't a valid reaction, even for fast track. That's the answer.)
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064971#Comment_4064971
Just wait until all 4 survivors start running it in a general sense. Why bother making a setup when all 4 survivors can contribute to 18 reduced charges per hook on any given gen?
Just wait until all 4 survivors start running it
People said this years ago about hyper focus, and we still aren't seeing it.
In this fictional scenario with all 4 survivors both being hooked while also working on the same gen, where is the killer exactly?
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064940#Comment_4064940
Yeah watching the new spooknjukes one I kinda like he didnt do that he showed how strong it can be solo i guess lol. Because if you bring weaving spiders that removes 10 perm charges. Normally someones hooked by the time you finish. Your injured now so you have resilence and deja for 15% faster gen. Then fast track for its per hook thing lol. You can end up chewing through gen progress. Bnp also if you wanna tank that progress off a gen too. The most he pushed it two was a duo doing it and it was pretty good. I can see the stacking potential will have to see how it turns out.
You know what's better than all of that?
Doing 60 seconds (plus travel time) right away on the gen you start on instead of any of that.
Because in roughly that same amount of time you could basically finish one entire gen by yourself, not throw half of your chases in the trash, and not be a sandbag to your team at the most critical part of the match (the beginning).
Because, finishing one gen right away is... 90 charges of unregressable, permanent gen progress. And that completely dwarfs any potential later on that also requires you u to throw the match yourself and allow the killer to get momentum for something not worth it.
Fast track, if you are literally the last person standing with perfect hooks, no wasted charges at all, and spending them absolutely perfectly in peace with hooks would be up to 66%. Finishing a gen (100%) is always the better choice, and doesn't rely on you losing 3 other players on your team to get that far either.
There's a reason that Fast Track was #70 most used perk, below diversion and alert. It's not good.
This entire post is just more panic from people who see "you can't regress gens" and can't imagine how to function if the "damage generator" button isn't going to win them the match. This isn't even that dire, but "all gens always at zero or no deal" has been the mentality for years now.
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@Tetrisattack said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064596#Comment_4064596
Apparently, Trickster permanently being in 4.4m/s is not considered unhealthy for the rest of the game by survivor mains.
He was 4.4 when he launched, which, for the record, is the default move speed for ranged killers.
They increased it for no good reason by 5%, which is where the MFT comparison comes from.
Because, for some reason, 3% of conditional, "permanent" haste was screamed about for 6 months because it supposedly "completely broke every loop in the game" (particularly and especially against this killer), and yet 5% of unconditional, permanent haste is now defended incessantly.
That's the definition of inconsistent.
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@jesterkind said:
To be fair, Residual Manifest has an effect that doesn't require rummaging a chest, so that one is doing pretty fine overall.
This would be a nice buff for most of the chest-searching perks, though. Really, I'd argue what's needed more is to have more chests on the map, but this'd help too.
I run Residual Manifest, Blast Mine, and Flashbang on Cheryl, since the blindness status applies on any blind and I get perk value for mainly being a gen jockey.
I rarely rummage, or if I do it's while I'm waiting for someone else to open the exit gate, basically.
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So, I'll say that I don't particularly hate the idea of altering or adjusting gens, but it has to be in context of some much, much larger game changes. In a vacuum on it's own, like proposed here, there's are some major issues that have to be addressed.
Its not guaranteed to be longer repairing gens
Yes it is. Adding complexity (on top of adding extra default slowdown) will absolutely make gens take longer. You seem to want to gloss over this impact, but it's massive.
Complexity makes this impact solo queue far more than a coordinated team, and let's be honest, a coordinated team is where everyone thinks the problem lies mainly. Having a new player hunting for gas and not even on a gen is just sitting a solo queue team in the foot because they're already not always on the same page. New players will not understand this system (which is also glossed over: how do you communicate to the player that "your gen is slower until you do a side quest" in game? Tutorials are awful at this point.
Not to mention the entire premise is: gens speeds slow down unless you stop working on the gen and get a part or something. That's guaranteed slowdown on every gen you might touch in the match (the first time, by the way you set it up, but still guaranteed).
Which leads to the next major flaw:
Tunneling is completely unaffected by these changes
Absolute deal breaker. This isn't creating more gameplay, or "making gens fun", the only thing we're doing here is adding friction to getting gens completed, at least completed early.
Even if you are off the opinion that "tunneling only exists because of gen speeds", surely you can extrapolate that slower gens (including mandatory time off of gens) will only make hard tunneling stronger.
If you want to be taken seriously, then at least offer a conjoined suggestion that would fix this issue as well. If your solution only makes tunneling easier and stronger, then it's overall bad for the game.
Which leads to the third major flaw, really:
Survivors don't genrush because of killer desperation tactics (killers do these often because survivors genrush), they do so because there's nothing else for survivors to do
This is a completely backwards look at this problem. Because we've had other things for survivors to do, voluntarily, and killers have continued to tunnel.
Every single event: survivors throw snowballs, jump in snowmen, deposit gen progress in totems... Remarkably similar to your suggestion, actually (except voluntary). You know what happens? Killers realize that the extra slowdown makes tunneling a free win and do exactly that. It takes survivors a day or two to catch on that the event part of the game is over and the game is back to "do gens and leave". It's the cycle of every event, and it always starts with survivors playing side objectives and doing something other than gens, and always gets ruined by the killer choosing winning over fun.
The reality is that the game does need a change to adjust early game pacing. (Unfortunately, this change you proposed impacts the entire match as well, and in ways that aren't healthy. Take, for example, not shrinking the playing field by gen completion, which really screws over "low tier killers")
But when addressing early game pacing, two factors to hand in hand: early tunneling needs limitations, and early gens need to be slowed down. Gens are the easy part: boom, gens now take 300 second each.
Tunneling is the hard part, so much so that we can't even have a discussion about it at all. The proposal from BHVR got shot down, hard. And people refuse to acknowledge that it's even necessary. At this point, any discussion needs to include both, and since addressing gens is trivially easy, you have to stay the conversation with "these are the limitations to tunneling" to even have a discussion at all.
This post is an excellent example of why "fixing gen speeds" as the first (and only) solution is just not ever going to work. And you don't even acknowledge that this makes the tunneling problem worse, which, again, is a deal breaker.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062537#Comment_4062537
Basically nerf the easy, brainless free value ones so that they aren't as OP and buff the more conditional ones to reward doing something other than brainless shift-w, exactly how i would do it. Running or jumping a window shouldnt give so much value.
Basically nerf the easy, brainless free value ones so that they aren't as OP
Well, they aren't OP. They also are one use per chase, and sprint burst especially is one that requires active management to make sure it's available when you need it. Lithe is only available if you have a vault or use a pallet, which is heavily dependent on map RNG.
reward doing something other than brainless shift-w
Well, unfortunately, over the years people have demanded that BHVR nerf maps, pallets, tiles, and loops, while making about 80% of the killer roster's counter is "just leave the loop".
So apparently, if survivors don't adapt, they're "idiots" and when survivors do adapt and realize that "hey, killer pressed m2, time to move to the next loop" it's considered brainless.
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I think "horror themed freeze tag" is more appropriate these days.
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You don't need an in game voice chat system, there are too many problems with something like that. Not everyone speaks the same language, it opens up yet another avenue for toxicity (that this community doesn't need), the game's base code wasn't designed with that in mind, nor could they moderate it properly in places where that's legally required.
At worst, a ping system or even pre defined chat wheel (with a cooldown for anti spamming) would not have any of these issues, but is still likely not something they will invest time and effort on.
Regarding every other point here, these fall flat in 2026 DbD since 2v8 exists. I notice you carefully define this as SWF issue, yet this exists for two killers KWF also.
If you want to understand the issues with, say, having a second queue, or showing who is in the same group to the opposing team in the lobby, then consider how that would impact KWF in 2v8 if implemented. It sounds like a lot of lobby dodging (or easy queues), impossibly long queue times, or other major issues for people who just want to play with friends.
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@top500spiderman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061753#Comment_4061753
I think the point of my post completely flew over your head.
My post wasn’t about whether going for the hook was the right choice or not. Obviously that’s situational and depends on the value in that moment. That was never the argument being made.
The argument you’re trying to create has nothing to do with what OP actually said.
He wants the unhook notification removed because it’s “lame.” That’s the entire premise.
So I’m not sure why you decided to segment a piece of my post just to start arguing about something that’s completely irrelevant to the point I was responding to.
OP himself said that it’s "efficient".
So I find it interesting that you complain about "being 'smart' for map pressure" and yet would also prefer survivors do gens instead of voluntarily choosing to do literally anything else (voluntary pressure, effectively).
? completely lost me here.
Re-read your post I replied to. OP describes a scenario he encountered as an example of why this mechanic isn't necessary and probably leads to bad habits.
Your first response is to say:
So you’ve seen a killer make a smart decision to regain or maintain pressure,
So I'm not sure why you're confused here. OP is arguing that maybe the game shouldn't train new killers to follow notifications around, and you ignore all context surrounding this scenario they're describing to just say it's "the smart play". That's not OP's argument, that's your assessment.
I'm trying to point out that it isn't always a smart play, and based on the situation OP specifically calls out, it's probably not the correct play unless there's some extreme circumstance involved. (like looping near hook, which would also make the entire arguments about the notification moot since it's right next to you).
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061757#Comment_4061757
I don't think OP is suggesting quite that. Its the "maybe when you are the last survivor and you get downed don't let the person DC and just go into the mori"
That's not what they said at all. The title specifically says the "old finisher Mori", and even if we go with "intent", the last 40% of their post clarified that this is:
the old finish-mori is the one that will be automatically executed when all survivors are down
There's really no room for interpretation there.
Regarding your "don't let the person DC and just go into the mori": I feel like unskippable cutscenes are a cardinal sin in game design. This is basically saying you should be forced to engage in post game chat or wait at the end game screen for a minute for no reason.
There's zero reason to force players to watch an end game cut scene. Even other "PVP" games (with dc penalties) allow you to skip the play of the game or podium celebration by the winner without issue.
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No.
I'm not opposed to having a cinematic, dedicated spot for viewing the last mori of the game, but that PTB with the finisher Mori was just an excessive slug fest.
There was a video of Oni getting a 4k by just slugging everyone on dead dawg in like under 2 minutes. And that was with every survivor having base kit, infinite use, unbreakable. There's a good reason they pulled that part of that test.
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@top500spiderman said:
So you’ve seen a killer make a smart decision to regain or maintain pressure, and because it worked, it’s now “unhealthy” and “lame”?
And because you personally find it lame, we’re supposed to make a balance decision around that and remove the unhook notification from the game?
While we’re at it, can we remove flashlights too? I always have to turn to a wall before picking someone up. Very lame to go against.
If “that worked against me and I didn’t like it” becomes the standard for balance changes, then no mechanic survives.
make a smart decision to regain or maintain pressure
Is it, though?
The example OP used is dropping chase with an injured survivor to go back to hook. So the options presented here are either:
A) continue chasing an injured survivor, presumably who is one hit from downed. The unhooked survivor and the unhooker spend time healing (not on gens), and you finish a chase with a down and hook (also not on gens). That's an awful lot of slowdown (time survivors aren't on gens) that results in a hook (pressure) and recovery time (more pressure).
B) expend time dropping chase to cross the map again, interrupting the recovery, so the unhooker and the previous chase survivor go back to doing gens. Then you chase the unhooked survivor who is also injured, but now has unhook protections on top of that.
So, in the first scenario you have a hook almost complete, two survivors who will voluntarily not do gens while you finish that chase/hook if you just leave them alone, and you don't have to waste your time crossing the map.
In the second, you leave two survivors with no choice but to go do gens, expend time crossing the map to chase the person who automatically has more chase left in them.
So, in the "back to hook" scenario here, you're actively giving up map pressure and spending extra time in the hope that you can regain that time back after the first survivor dies. That's the opposite of map pressure, and it's highly debatable if that's the "smart" play in the scenario they gave, especially since other factors are missing here (like map, killer, builds, gens remaining, proximity of chase to hook). It's certainly not automatically the best play with just the information given.
Having survivors not doing gens is the basic definition of map pressure, either by requirement/response to things the killer does, or voluntarily.
Which brings me to the next thing you brought up:
While we’re at it, can we remove flashlights too
Sure, every time killers complain about survivors voluntarily choosing not to do gens, BHVR seems to nerf or remove it and survivors go back to doing gens... (Which leads to complaints about gen speeds and gen "rushing") So I find it interesting that you complain about "being 'smart' for map pressure" and yet would also prefer survivors do gens instead of voluntarily choosing to do literally anything else (voluntary pressure, effectively).
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061177#Comment_4061177
I think people basically mean financial accessibility when they say this. My nice new TV has a customizable crosshair, but my old cheap one, and my crappy monitor, do not. This sort of thing can be cut off by costs, specifically in regards to consoles, which can't use options like Reshade.
But yeah, accessibility isn't quite the right term, unless you go with it's most basic definition.
Yeah I just don't feel like "accessibility" is the right term. It's certainly a quality of life change, and I'm not opposed to it as a base kit feature or just a game setting.
But I also don't think it's necessarily preventing people from playing or even fully experiencing the game either.
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I doubt we'll see anything to resolve the "slug for the 4k" issue. It's been a problem since the hatch rework, and, while the hatch rework was a necessary change, it brought about this problem instead.
And at this point I'm kinda tired of beating this drum. We asked them to "do something about slugging for the 4k" for years, and their eventual answer was "here's a base kit Mori for the last survivor" which only incentivizes the practice.
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@Wiccamanplays said:
I'll keep saying it: accessibility should not be locked behind addons or perks.
I don't disagree with this idea, accessibility is a good thing.
I'm not seeing where this, in particular, is an accessibility issue. Just calling it one doesn't make it so, or just about any qol or even balance recommendation could be branded as "accessibility".
Something like fov slider (shadowborn base kit) helped mitigate motion sickness for people who have that issue. I can see that.
Visual terror radius for those who are deaf or hard of hearing. Ok.
Scratch mark custom colors and color blind mode is personally helpful as someone who is actually color blind.
Maybe I just don't see it, but what real world condition is "having a crosshair" trying to specifically address?
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@PetTheDoggo said:
People acting like killer is not affected by survivors with high ping…
Most online games use a "favor the shooter" approach, which generally feels better to the players. Essentially: if it looks like you hit on your end it will register as a hit.
Unfortunately, DbD really only has one team that attacks. The only thing survivors have that's even similar is pallet stunning, and they specifically changed things so that "pallet vacuuming" stopped… so that it didn't feel like crap for the killer.
You also have the fact that if one survivor is playing on Wi-Fi from Mars that you still have 3 other targets that aren't teleporting around. If the killer lags, you have to deal with getting hit around corners, over pallets, through walls, etc until the next match.
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@Jay_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060134#Comment_4060134
I do love how you start with a resonable discussion then go into a very petty "well the survivors should be able to injure and kill the killer lol. Like thats not "making things equal" thats just being petty.
And to comment on the first part yes there are a lot of builds out there for end game but whats been suggested is upon end game collapse being started, so the 2 minute timer, at that point allow abandon for the killer. I don't understand why you went so hard against the idea honestly.
Also if the feature was there doesn't mean killers have to use it. as you said sometimes survivors make mistakes resulting in free kills however a lot of the time if a killer has been rolled they want the game over just like survivors who are being rolled just stand under a hook because they want their game over. You seem so adamant on contesting the idea you fail to see things from a killer point of viewI do love how you start with a resonable discussion then go into a very petty "well the survivors should be able to injure and kill the killer lol. Like thats not "making things equal" thats just being petty.
It's called argument ad absurdum. Taking someones argument to it's logical conclusion to show why it's ridiculous.
People commonly ask for "killers to have the same options as survivors" and this is a pretty obvious example of why they don't actually want that.
What they want is to be able to cut short a game and move on. Which is already base kit with "hit them out" and can still potentially get an extra kill in end game. Which isn't an option survivors have without abandon.
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@Abbzy said:
Just give abandon to killer once gates are powered and bot will take over so survivors can tbag the hell from devs creation.
Now its just double standart that one side can skip the ending when they want and other must go till the end.
Like you say survivors can abandon even to skip 8 seconds of animation but killer must push them out so it doesnt take minute or two and he cant skip it but devs and majority doesnt see it as double sandart because that devs and majority are survivor based (sided or how would you call it), its like explaining right handed guy why it sucks to be left handed when everything is right handed.
@Jay_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060074#Comment_4060074
100% agree. Abandon once exit gates are powered.
If survivors can leave the game early why can't killers. Honestly there is nothing worse than being rolled in a game which is fine but then having to sit thru the entire end game because instead of leaving survivors wanna chase more or BM more (not to mention the salt in end game chat regardless of win or lose)
If survivor players are adamant they shouldn't have to sit thru a mori then us killers shouldnt have to sit thru end game collapse if we don't want toAbandon once exit gates are powered
This cuts out a big part of the game. There are entire builds and perks focused around end game (blood warden, noed, terminus, batteries included, fire up, etc).
Not every survivor is in the exit gates to teabag. It's called being a good teammate and the correct tactical play to wait in the exit gate until you're sure everyone else is out. No crouching is required. (Not to mention that some killer kits and perks might even encourage leaving without being forced out)
And in the event that you do need to leave the exit gate to help, there's a likely chance that you'll be giving the killer an extra kill. And even if it is cocky survivors, you may still be able to force errors or capitalize on mistakes to get a kill. That's called PVP.
None of that exists for slugs.
But since you're so obsessed with making these equal, then why not give survivors the same things as killers have? A slug can now injure and down the killer, and turn that situation into a potential escape instead of a near kill? That's the actual equivalent of what the killer has, base kit. That sounds like a terrible idea to me, but it would meet the requirement of "make things equal".
Or barring that, use a base kit ability to shorten the timer, like killers can hit survivors out. That's the real equivalent of abandon in this case, is killers can hit survivors out and cut short the end game collapse (even start the EGC). Survivors do not have that option without abandon.
Might not even have that option with abandon, since there are other requirements other than "be slugged" here, like if your teammate is still up.
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@Jay_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060086#Comment_4060086
Yes reading that line out loud is a bit of a mouthful and was written wrong however my point still stands. if i wanna mori bots i would do it in a custom game.
"Absolutely not. Surely you understand that this would just result in killers slugging for 4 minutes. Or rather, slugging for 3:59 and then Mori at the last second?"
You do understand that you have read 1 part and skipped over the very important second section. Incase you missed it let me repaste it here"So I would love to see a change in how this system works but it would be specific so that it can't be abused by killers.
1. Remove the abandon feature if there is only 1 survivor left in the game when they go down. This means that the killer can get his final mori on a player not just a bot
2. 3 - 5 seconds after the survivor goes down the mori animation automaticly plays. This would give survivors who go down at the hatch a chance to escape or those who go down right at the exit of the game a chance to escape but in all other situations would enable the killer to get the final kill."
I very clearly state in section 2 of the changes that after 3 - 5 seconds after the survivor goes down the mori animation automaticly plays. How would that result in a 3.59 second slug followed by a mori?
You realize that putting it as two different numbers points makes it look like two separate options, right?
Because if you intended for it to be 1 and 2 at the same time, there's no reason to split that up into separate points. So it reads as "get I rid of it entirely" or "auto mori after a few seconds".
Especially since you start with "I would like to see a change", then list very obviously two options (heavily implying: choose one).
Again, why does it matter if someone watches an unskippable cutscene here? Why does it matter so much to you that another person is impacted here?
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In almost every game I've ever played, one of my "Cardinal sins of game design" is unskippable cutscenes.
But I'm curious why:
All you are doing is doing a mori on a bot and thats just no fun at all.
Read that out loud for me.
As for "fixes":
Remove the abandon feature if there is only 1 survivor left in the game when they go down. This means that the killer can get his final mori on a player not just a bot
Absolutely not. Surely you understand that this would just result in killers slugging for 4 minutes. Or rather, slugging for 3:59 and then Mori at the last second?
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I feel like this is a good example of "we don't know, but the typical narratives don't explain everything". All we have is speculation, and don't really have good data to say why exactly.
Since Sadako, dredge, and Freddy are typically in the "top list" but are generally considered weaker m1 killers, there's a common element of teleporting that likely improves lethality. This could also apply to FNAF Freddy, demo, or even Xeno, but the limitation of having strict entrance and/or exit points might make a big difference.
Having anti loop and slowdown doesn't necessarily hurt, but also doesn't really explain everything by itself.
There could also be a factor of the Freddy mains being pretty rare, and may just be bringing up the average with their experience. (Like Lynxi on twins).
I could maybe buy that the kit is rare and harder to understand for brand new players, maybe that drives up the average a bit. But I don't think that I agree with the "survivors are too stupid to deal with the weak kit" narrative I sometimes hear. Freddy had the exact same kill rate overall as at high MMR (top 5%). So it makes no sense that those who did "git gud" are still dying just as much to this killer, who, don't forget is "a weak m1 killer". Pretty sure you've figured out that much of the game if you can hit top 5%.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058601#Comment_4058601
It can also cost you the match if the survivor just keeps you busy long enough to others to get the gens and they have three chases to do so and its quite possible to extend it to that.
if the survivor just keeps you busy long enough to others to get the gens
Yes. It's not an instant win button completely.
But there are several factors that influence and impact this: survivor looping ability, killer looping ability, killer kit, map, tile, and pallet rng, perk selection, how long to even get into chase, and even teammates can be factors in how long chases go.
Yet it send fairly rare for people to examine these factors whenever tunneling doesn't actually win them the game, and the most common complaints are SWF and gen speeds.
Effectively, when tunneling fails, the most common response is "change the game so tunneling is more effective" rather than examining any of the other factors I mentioned that include personal responsibility, player choices, or skill/knowledge/game sense.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058355#Comment_4058355
I'd love to have meaningful discussions about to what degree gen speeds are actually a problem or how we can meaningfully buff trapper without just adding dash slop.I've tried to even salvage their idea about fresh hooks to instead focus their approach toward addressing the issues of killers on an individual basis in relation to their weaknessess in macro play, as that is the thing that varies the most between them. You don't have to give Trapper a dash, nor do you want to do something like a gen kick bonus to everyone because of disproportionate value, but instead apply a different buff on either a per-killer or per-category (stealth/ranged/"pallet eaters"/whatever groupings would work best) that specifically address killers macro play considerations in a way that would incentivize their temporal strength in ways that would be proportional to reducing that of survivors strength in the way 4 surivovrs have over 3. Some examples would be something like Wraith getting an extremely short BBQ aura (maybe 1-2 seconds) to find their next target, Huntress might get a free partial reload, Slinger could get a temporarily reduced TR, ideas focused on improving their efficiency in getting into their next chase or addressing resource time waste, things like that. They could even scale up with chained fresh hooks to incentivise not straying from that behavior. Likewise, you then punish tunneling strong enough to disincentivize it by comparison like the proposed "kill before x hooks" idea but with a more reasonable threshold, testing out a starting point of 4 (instead of 6) and adjusting from there.
Both carrot and stick, both of which are focused specifically on the aspects of the conundrum that causes both sides to feed into the loop. The main aspect that needs to be focused on is that the survivors start strong, killer gets stronger, and the snowballs in regards to early gen progress and killer momentum. I don't claim it to be a perfect example, but my point is more that many times the ideas that get attempted can be salvaged if applied to reasonable reasoning that actually takes both sides of the issue in mind, instead of the constant back and forth micro scale considerations that even BHVR themselves fell victim to and wasted most of the health chapter initiative on.
Unfortunately, historically what the loudest voices want is the first part (nerf gen speeds), and absolutely will not allow BHVR to address the second part (tunneling)This is why this stuff will never get solved. Even if you didn't intend it to, this statement creates a biased stance on how we got here. Again, its never about which came first, because most of the stuff that can go back to isn't even in the game anymore. Its no more valid to complain about something like overbrine than it is to go back to instant BNPs, omega blink nurse, perma saboed hooks, etc. Thats why you don't focus on that type of eye for an eye consideration because it focuses on the chicken or the egg and losees the perspective on the cycle itself.
That doesn't feel like you're looking for a solution, it feels like you're joining the loud group that we see a lot here that claim "gens speeds need fixed, but if you expect any tunneling changes I'm out, forget it".These types of projections are why I'm out. I've had to spell this out multiple times, but I want tunneling to be addressed more than most of the people who complain about it. I just want it to be done correctly so that it actually takes, doesn't get rolled back, doesn't cause further problems with its implementation, and avoids this back and forth approach people seem to be unable to get past. The fact that this type of assumption is how neutrality gets assigned by default just shows how deeply the us vs them mindsets prevent people from engaging with any idea that isn't blind agreement. I can't control how people misinterpret posts based on preconceptions and bias, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it when it happens, especially when clarification is provided. Most of why people refuse to listen to people they disagree with is because everyone keeps giving each other reasons not to like this.
But that's likely why you're getting downvoted here.Don't kid yourself. For every time that happens, other times posts that are designed to make people think about something other than getting what they want get downvoted. Its a validation feedback loop and its easier to see the number you "agree with" go up than to actually engage with posts that are longer than the character limit for twitter.
apply a different buff on either a per-killer or per-category (stealth/ranged/"pallet eaters"/whatever groupings would work best)
I'm not necessarily opposed to this idea. There are, of course, details (containing devils) for which groups and how much, but I don't see it being completely impossible.
The biggest sticking point could be that BHVR themselves stated at one point that they didn't want to go the route of changing things like gen speeds or number of pallets on a per killer basis. That was years ago, so maybe they've changed their mind or would consider revisiting it, but it's also been rare for them to outright say no.
This is why this stuff will never get solved. Even if you didn't intend it to, this statement creates a biased stance on how we got here.
I disagree. I have no problem with the idea that people believe the root causes are different, and I also believe that a much smaller part is that they are intertwined problems.
But if we ignore that and just looking at solutions, these are vastly different.
Gen speeds are almost trivial easy to address. Add extra gen time, base kit corrupt, pain res on every hook, increased base regression, just to name a few. These aren't difficult answers.
Let's take it to an extreme, and completely solve gen speeds in a hypothetical: do all of it. Gens take 3 minutes each, are blocked for the first 5 minutes of the match, every single hook takes 30% of total gen progress. This would kill the game, but as a thought experiment, set that aside.
The immediate consequence is that tunneling one person out is insanely buffed here. Napkin math puts a hard tunnel at 5 gens you'd have something like 8-10 minutes to get someone out of the game and still have at least 2 gens left standing. So tunneling literally becomes an instant win button.
But fixing tunneling isn't as easy as slapping down extra timers. This is harder answer. And if these are going to be interlinked and solved simultaneously, we need to have ideas and discussion about what that looks like.
Unfortunately, this is where you stop discussion again. Right when we get to the hard part:
These types of projections are why I'm out.
Then what would you change about, let's say the tunneling PTB in particular that would be acceptable?
That was at least a solution, if an imperfect one. But the loudest voices here and elsewhere didn't want to try and fix the problems or iterate on the idea, but said simply "no". And BHVR listened.
And instead of productive conversation about "let's fix elusive to not allow pallets or flashlights" we got "do nothing".
Instead of tweaking numbers, we got "do nothing".
And currently in this conversation, you again try to bow out the instant it gets to the tricky part of solving the difficult part of the issue. This isn't a "fix gen speed and we'll deal with tunneling later", we've been doing that for almost 4 years now.
You yourself admit we should address these together, but if no one wants to talk about the hard part to fix that, and many didn't even want to go as far as acknowledging.
That's the main reason why I push back on this issue. Not that I don't want change, I personally think the PTB was salvageable with tweaks and adjustments. But if we keep having the "fix the gen rush problem" and never have the "fix tunneling" conversation, then issues will continue to get worse and the goal post will continue to move.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058346#Comment_4058346
I imagine if you hadn't immediately accused him of "purposefully try[ing] to misunderstand" what you were saying, your other posts might have performed better.I don't make posts to be popular, I make them to help people get out of their own heads and try to improve the game itself. The point of paradoxes like the chicken and the egg is that they are considered paradoxes if you focus on details instead of taking in the overall philosophical concept, like the Ship of Theseus or the Epimenides paradox. The point of them is to not submit to your visceral reaction but to take in the concept they convey, then apply it to the conundrum at hand. So by losing the forest for the trees, especially when the meaning subsequently gets explained and instead doubling down on said detail, that shows a lack of willingness to understand the concept being conveyed. So yes, its exhausting to have your point not only missed but have arguments thrown at you as if you must be the opposition. Thats cognitive dissonance, and a complete rejection of the dialectical process.
I post this stuff for the same reason my account is almost as old as the game itself. I'd rather see the game improve than just "get mine." The fact that neutral positions that prioritize game health over personal perspectives get derailed like this is why nothing ever gets fixed with this game, and tunneling is a perfect example. But its more fun to have back and forth fights so why bother.
In the interest of actual discussion, let me give you another perspective.
I'll take you at face value that you both want to improve the game and address core issues.
You claim to want to address these things, and at a surface level you and I both agree that we should address these issues. Ideally at or around the same time.
I'd love to have meaningful discussions about to what degree gen speeds are actually a problem or how we can meaningfully buff trapper without just adding dash slop.
And I'd also have no issue discussing that in context of "and here's the changes to tunneling that would go with that".
Unfortunately, historically what the loudest voices want is the first part (nerf gen speeds), and absolutely will not allow BHVR to address the second part (tunneling). And whenever that has happened in the past, we get direct or indirect buffs that result in making tunneling worse with literally nothing that attempts to address or fix that part of the issue.
And usually, when we start taking about the "fix tunneling part" is where people start to give a huge amount of push back or just throw up their hands and claim it's bias. Or something else to shut down the conversation (usually it's SWF or gen speeds).
So, for context, when @Firellius responded and I gave you solid reasons why tunneling absolutely has to be dealt with in this discussion you shut down instead of engaging. You jumped into "bias" claims instead of giving any kind of actual discussion.
That doesn't feel like you're looking for a solution, it feels like you're joining the loud group that we see a lot here that claim "gens speeds need fixed, but if you expect any tunneling changes I'm out, forget it". Now maybe that's not your stance, and I'm willing to take your word for now that it isn't. But that's likely why you're getting downvoted here.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058323#Comment_4058323
So you'd rather purposely try to misunderstand the application of the concept to try to force your side to be right, instead of observing the cyclical nature of the paradox? The question isn't about which one was actually first, because that answer changes depending on the scope of your definition. It focuses on the fact that the two continuously cause the other, but why care about something like that when there's an argument to be forced I guess.
This really isn't that hard to demonstrate in several ways that tunneling is the problem.
A) It takes the entire team sweating to make this an issue. For tunnelng it takes one person deciding to sweat at the start of the match. For gen rushing, it takes 4. If you have one or even 3 who are hell bent on gen rushing and one person is breaking every totem on the map, then you didn't have gen rushing... You have an easy 3v1 win for the killer.
B) look at literally any event ever. Give players snowballs, snowmen, literally any side quest and they will do it. And every event unfolds exactly the same way after launching it: killers realize that survivors aren't being efficient and tunneling will result in an easy win, survivors realize that the fun is over and it's back to main game and have to do gens to even have a chance.
C) The "list of reasons killers tunnel" has been insanely long, and addressed ad nauseum. This isn't even a complete list, just off the top of my head:
- Gen speeds
- DS
- Dead hard (twice)
- Prove thyself
- BNP
- CoH, or just healing in general (both too easy and to many health states, and also too difficult so no one bothers and just does gens injured). This has flipped several times
- Map sizes
- Tile strength and tile chaining
- Pallets too strong, and pallet density
- "Survivors need a side quest" (interactions with killer kits, boons, invocations, and events)
- Individual killer buffs to help bolster the lower tiers
- More mobility (here's your dash slop)
And every one of those and more have just resulted in killers tunneling more. And every one of those changes (to live BTW) has resulted in putting more and more pressure on survivors to do gens or die. And since the kill rates are 60%, it's commonly "do gens and still die".
You know what we haven't done? Address tunneling itself.
The one time they tried people nuked the forms and had it pulled from consideration within 48 hours of even being tested at all.
So there's your root cause.
Unfortunately, the issue of actually giving let tier killers anything meaningful enough to be noticeable, and addressing any actual issues with gen speeds are blocked because we can't address tunneling, aren't allowed. Let's fix tunneling and we can look at other issues too.
Because unfortunately fixing anything else first has always led to more tunneling. At least that we have history for. What happens if they ever address tunneling is only speculation.
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@Skittlesthehusky said:
i think a communications wheel would work wonderfully if it uses images rather than words. the problem with word-based wheels is that language barriers exist. symbols can be used much more effectively for information and can be used universally. i think this would also coincide with the emote system wonderfully too.
as far as a ranked system goes, i think we are at a point where a ranked game mode would make sense for this game. there is a clearer distinction between types of players in this stage of the game's lifespan, so i don't think it'd really hurt anything. the argument of "sweats using casual modes to bully casual players" wouldn't really change much either, since this technically already happens due to the player pool mixture. for those who are wanting to take the game more seriously or are looking for something different to do with the game in general, i feel that the ranked mode would invite them to congregate there as these modes have always have in other games.
the problem with word-based wheels is that language barriers exist
One really nice thing about a ping system or comms wheel is that localization is client side.
So if I use the wheel to say something like "going for unhook", then each player would hear that call out in their own language automatically.
And since the comms wheel callouts are determined by BHVR, there's no moderation issue with bad actors. Well, aside from spamming, which can be mitigated with ping cooldowns.
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Voice chat doesn't automatically make people better at the game. Many people who group up are playing for fun with friends and not sweating, and people who play solo can be competitive without it.
Not to mention that the stats already show that being in a group isn't some ticket to instant win any more. If anything, there's a weak correlation between grouping up and dying more often by being altruistic.
Dbd doesn't need voice and probably couldn't handle it anyway. A simple ping or pre-set call-out wheel with a cooldown to prevent spamming would be nice, but would simply be a qol change at this point.
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@Skeleton23 said:
I 100% most of my matches im made to tunnel, Slug and camp because of what survivors do. Sabo Squads make me slug, Gen Rushing makes me Tunnel and when they sworm the hook im forced to camp
Weird to mention sabo squads since that's not what almost everyone is complaining about with slugging. Might as well include people lurking with a flashlight in that case. Both of those are generally considered "reasonable reasons to leave someone on the ground for a short period" while you go chase the other person. Neither is a reason to leave someone intentionally slugged for 4 minutes to bleed out.
The other two, though, are self-fulfilling prophecies.
If you hard tunnel one person and leave the other 3 alone, they will do gens. Survivors respond to things the killer does or brings to the match, and do gens by default. But if I reword your complaint to "you know what, if you want to do gens I'm going to leave you alone and let you do gens" doesn't sound nearly as victimizing as you'd like.
Camping because of "swarming the hook" can also be self fulfilling. If you stand around the hook long enough you actually get both "gen rushing" and eventually someone will
have to try and unhook"swarm the hook". -
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057234#Comment_4057234
There is literally a statement in this thread that giving survivors information would cause them to "win more games and create frustration". While the reality is that it would generally give a minor quality of life improvement that only changes gameplay if the survivor uses that information correctly.Did you quote that statement, direct any concerns or considerations at it, or did you make a general statement as a blanket toward "some of these responses" you disagree with in a nebulous form? Believe it or not people can think the right things for the wrong reasons and vice versa, if you have problems with specific logic points, address them instead of being purposely vague to other any opinion besides your own. Its both more productive and keeps you from getting in your own head about people who disagree on some points while agreeing on others.
There's no game sense here, there's just a lack of information. I don't know if Meg has the perk, or not, or just a challenge to unhook people.Game sense isn't about what you know, its about what you can figure out. So yes, if someone is exhibiting behavior that would be consistent with them running a situational perk, you use game sense to decide whether to accommodate that assumption or not like in my We'll Make It example. Its the same principle behind the mindgame a killer makes every time a downed survivor crawls under a pallet, especially if they've been sitting underneith of it: Everything from someone waiting around a corner to a power struggle play become possibilities to consider without having any form of certainty in the decision. Thats why I keep talking about emergent gameplay.
In most multiplayer PVP games I could communicate that. Playing with StB on one survivor, we'll make it or even deliverance on another, for example, there would be different situations where those would each be the better option. But I can't strategize that or coordinate, certainly not in the moment. And if they're on console I have literally no way to know even if I ask in the lobby.Again, DBD was designed specifically to avoid facilitating communication, as well as remove as many concepts of precognition as possible. Its purposely intended to provide a level of disorientation at its foundation. Games like LoL are designed specifically to have communication, games like F13 were designed to limit it severely via proximity or in game items, DBD was designed to not have it at all beyond pointing/beckoning/crouching. Thats exactly why I said earlier that SWF was a necessary evil that contradicted the game's own design the same way nurse being able to blink through walls and take advantage of exposed status while doing so contradicted the game's core foundation as well. You don't use foundational cracks as excuses to dumb down other aspects of games, you treat them as outliers that are specific to what necessitated them in the first place.
And I don't think it's reasonable to expect other people to know why I'm pushing for an unhook, if there's zero way to know that these perks are even in play. It's actually just expecting that either I am, or my teammates are able to divine the correct play based on information that isn't available in game and can't be communicated through game.You keep talking in absolutes, I'm talking in estimations. You don't want to have to consider the possibility of making an incorrect call off of incomplete data, you're demanding certainty in a game centered around a lack thereof. Killers would love to know they will get value from a hex build but accept they might only have 1 perk 40 seconds into the match. Survivors would love to know that their healing build will do anything with the risk they might end up facing a Plague. Its entirely a mindset problem to demand certainty instead of being willing to take risks in concepts centered around risk/reward principles and every time that consideration gets dumbed down, it has ripple effects in other aspects of the game. People bother with perks like UB even less since most of their teammates will abandon before they get the chance to use it, so it becomes redundant. "QoL" can have consequences when done incorrectly.
That seems like an easy fix. Yet here we are, with people claiming the sky will fall if you do so. It's not "fighting a hive mind", it's simply fighting this mindset that only a few people seem to have that if you give survivors even one inch of space it will destroy the game with catastrophic consequences. And that's not just me being hyperbolic, it's some of the responses in this thread.Always with the strawmen. Its not a matter of "the sky will fall," its a matter of the fact we have seen the consequences of these types of misplaced homogenizations in the past, and they directly contribute to every complaint about staleness within the meta. WoO will always be proof of that, and thats coming from someone who thinks the perk has plenty of merits but its ease of use and removal of critical thinking has caused regression in the player base with determining the information it provides without it. The reason you see yellow paint in so many games is because its overuse has led to many players being unable to survey environments without a clear indication spelling out where to go.
Game sense isn't about what you know, its about what you can figure out. So yes, if someone is exhibiting behavior that would be consistent with them running a situational perk, you use game sense to decide whether to accommodate th
I agree. Though "what you can figure out" should be based on things you've seen, heard, or experienced in the game. So if I've been unhooked and see the "we'll make it" symbol pop up from one of my teammates, I should be able to see that and hopefully remember that's in play later.
If I hear someone scream, and I've already unhooked to know it wasn't make your choice, I can reasonably be expected to know that survivor had StB.
Those are examples of deductive reasoning, since you have the information available and can use game knowledge to fill in the gaps.
You can even use game sense in predictive ways, such as "wraith has glowing eyes and isn't kicking gens, probably has noed" because you've seen that trend before.
But survivors are skins. I can't guess which of the combinations of perks Meg is running ahead of time, but I can piece together with information that's given during the match to some degree. If that information is not available in any way, it's not really reasonable to expect players to guess. This is also a game where, 10 years later, something as simple as "waving your arms on hook" is still ambiguous to mean either "safe to unhook" or "not safe to unhook". So even clear and obvious attempts at communication are not clear between players.
Again, DBD was designed specifically to avoid facilitating communication, as well as remove as many concepts of precognition as possible. Its purposely intended to provide a level of disorientation at its foundation
The game has also evolved. The gameplay used to also be hide and seek and they even marketed the game as "horror hide and seek" at one point, yet they put out an "anti hiding" patch last year.
What's funny, is that I said similar things about showing killers the hook markings. Those are absolutely game sense, and more so even just memory since the killer not only can see the hooks as they occur (existing game information) but was also personally present for each hook and actively, personally took action each time. And yet they added this as a qol feature regardless.
Did it destroy the game? No. Was it strictly necessary? Also no. Can it be used for malicious reasons also? Sure. Was it a welcome qol chance none the less? Absolutely.
I can admit I was wrong, or at least in the minority about that issue, but since the devs have already taken that step, then this is really a no brainer change that is consistent with that also.
So if we can give this kind of information out, then I'm that light your "you should just have game sense" doesn't hold water whatsoever. Even on top of the fact that you have vastly less information about your teammates perks and motivations than killers did regarding hook stages.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057234#Comment_4057234
I completely agree with you. DbD is the only game which has a team based side where communication is just nonexistent for the sake of the other side, all due to fearmongering.
People will tell you with a straight face that dbd can't add contextual pings or short "I'm getting the save" rocket league-esque chat messages for better coordination between soloq players because "think of all the poor trapper and pig players who only play 3 hours a month who would get 0k's from that change 😫😥" Surely the killer players with 1000+ win streaks are laughing knowing nothing will change because of comments like that.
This option, to me, is about on par with making shadowing an fov slider. (Another change I was pushing for for years before they did it.)
It's it technically a buff? Sure. Will it change some minor aspects of the gameplay? Yeah.
Is it a common sense change that will improve overall player quality of life? Absolutely.
And it should be on the devs radar to implement it in some way in the near future.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057140#Comment_4057140
This community continues to frustrate with the insistence that kicking every gen on cooldown or tunneling the first thing that moves is supposed to be "genius tactical strategy" that should never be inhibited or changed in any way, yet also the idea of "I should let the person with we'll make it unhook instead" is somehow a ticket to impossible games and shouldn't be allowed for people to even consider as an option. Come on.You might be less frustrated if you didn't boil down everyone who disagrees with you as being a hive mind that is perpetually illogical while everyone who agrees with you is a bastion of Vulcan virtuosity. The most frustrating thing about trying to maintain neutral stances that focus on game health is constantly being lumped into strawmen instead of people trying to understand a position they might not agree with, but this entire sentiment is just a derailment about meta tribalism.
As to the last part, there is a massive difference between being psychic to get value and having the game sense to allow someone to use their perk in a situational way, and I'm sorry your faith in your teammates is that low that you feel that way, regardless of how justified it may feel based on the disappointments that have led to it. People honestly don't realize how burnt out on this game they actually are half the time.
You might be less frustrated if you didn't boil down everyone who disagrees with you as being a hive mind that is perpetually illogical while everyone who agrees with you is a bastion of Vulcan virtuosity.
There is literally a statement in this thread that giving survivors information would cause them to "win more games and create frustration". While the reality is that it would generally give a minor quality of life improvement that only changes gameplay if the survivor uses that information correctly.
It wouldn't be a huge massive swing in balance. It would, at best, be barely noticeable and likely not even impact perk pick rates, let alone kill rates.
As to the last part, there is a massive difference between being psychic to get value and having the game sense to allow someone to use their perk in a situational way, and I'm sorry your faith in your teammates is that low that you feel that way,
There's no game sense here, there's just a lack of information. I don't know if Meg has the perk, or not, or just a challenge to unhook people.
In most multiplayer PVP games I could communicate that. Playing with StB on one survivor, we'll make it or even deliverance on another, for example, there would be different situations where those would each be the better option. But I can't strategize that or coordinate, certainly not in the moment. And if they're on console I have literally no way to know even if I ask in the lobby.
And I don't think it's reasonable to expect other people to know why I'm pushing for an unhook, if there's zero way to know that these perks are even in play. It's actually just expecting that either I am, or my teammates are able to divine the correct play based on information that isn't available in game and can't be communicated through game.
That seems like an easy fix. Yet here we are, with people claiming the sky will fall if you do so. It's not "fighting a hive mind", it's simply fighting this mindset that only a few people seem to have that if you give survivors even one inch of space it will destroy the game with catastrophic consequences. And that's not just me being hyperbolic, it's some of the responses in this thread.