AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@grumpelfox said:
actually being able to regress gens would help with the tunneling you all claim to have a problem with . there should never have been a limit in the first place . should there be a limit to how many times a survivor can touch a gen ?
actually being able to regress gens would help with the tunneling you all claim to have a problem with
Nope, having killers fixate on kicking gens created the least engaging gameplay I've ever seen in this game.
Kick a gen and go back to hook immediately, or dropping chase entirely to patrol their 3 gen or just make sure that every gen has been kicked. People desperately want "gen kick simulator" back because it effectively made the game pve with the added bonus of pissing off actual players.
People used gen kick meta to show gens so they had time to tunnel more. That entire year is a case study in exactly why "gen speeds" do not "fix" tunneling in general. Most killers will just take the extra time to make tunneling more effective for easier wins instead of going for map pressure.
should there be a limit to how many times a survivor can touch a gen ?
Almost everything survivors do has a limit. You can't even vault more than 3 times without blocking a window. You can't be hooked more than 3 times, you can't heal base kit, or if you have a reasonable healing speed it comes with charges that are consumed.
Gens are not the killers objective, survivors are. The gen kick limit exists solely because BHVR allowed people to forget that fact, and some people are still confused to this day.. It's "killer", not "saboteur".
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Easy as that.
If you are Slugged and the Killer is willing to stay on you Bming than all the other Survivors do Gens while you crawl to the open gate. You win or the Killer must pick you up. No reason to abbandon there since you still able to win by just letting your team work the gens.
I didn´t talked about the Endgame timer there. I talked of the time difference between getting hit and instant abbandon and hitting up to 4 survivors 2 times before they decide to leave.
You made an Edit to an post after 4 new posts have been dropped. Thats not good faith. That is just trying to blame someone else and by saying you are finished with the discussion without answering a simple question which seem really important to you you didn´t win the discussion either.
Just be honest with yourself.
You want the Killer to get shamed at the exit gate and this is your only point.
You made an Edit to an post after 4 new posts have been dropped. Thats not good faith.
I made an edit 2 minutes after I posted it, after considering. The time stamp is there.
I also clarified in the response you read. Which isn't edited at all. To be clear here and for the third time: it shouldn't exist, make them watch the mori.
You haven't answered my question, not once. You keep deflecting and dodging.
The reason I ask "why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead?" Is the same reason you won't answer it and push for anything else, including personal attacks now:
They aren't the same scenario. That's the reason. You don't give survivors that option because it's a bad idea, and shouldn't be in the game. Period.
But you can't say that, because your stance is "they should have the same options, make it fair".
So you're stuck. You can't admit they're actually different scenarios, because that undermines your entire premise.
You can't request "equivalence" and then agree with me that they aren't the same.
Others are also calling you out because the reality is: you just want to disconnect, but recognize how entitled that sounds.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035227#Comment_4035227
Survivors got the abbandon button the second when they get slugged like this. Because they don´t want their time wasted or see the Killer pressing W and S.
Killer still must tolerate the much longer Tbag and Clicky Click party.
Your turn
What do you lose when the Killer abbandons when all Survivors are at the exit gate?
You win either way so what are you losing when we give the Killer the option to abbandon?
Survivors got the abbandon button the second when they get slugged like this.
Only for final survivor and the Mori, which I said was wrong.
Abandon only exists when all remaining survivors are slugged, so it's not always available. You seem to not understand how this system even works.
much longer
No, 2 minutes of EGC is not longer than 4 minutes of slug. Not to mention the agency involved, which is the exact point you keep ignoring.
Your turn
No, your turn. I made a good faith response with my edit and answered your question. You ignored my question to throw out irrelevant info and a red herring:
I'm done with this conversation unless or until you answer:
why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead?
Since you seem to be completely convinced these are identical situations. They aren't, you're just ignoring that they aren't and refusing to examine the obvious reasons that they aren't. That's disingenuous.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035222#Comment_4035222
So I make it more even.
Why can a Survivor Skip the Mori animation with abbandon. It is just another way for the Killer to force you out of the gate.
If Survivors are willing to wait 2 Minutes in the Exit gate and demand the Killer to hit each one twice before they crawl out they can watch the short clip of a mori or not?
why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead?
I'm still waiting 6+ months for an answer to this. You first.
Edit: actually. Sure. Make them watch, the current implementation is wrong. Now your turn.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035210#Comment_4035210
I ask it the other way around.
What are you as Survivor losing if the Killer leaves the match when you are staying at the exit gate?
That isn't my point. These aren't equivalent scenarios. You might as well ask "why are the flavor texts in italics then" for all the relevance that has.
I'm not a huge fan of abandon, for this exact reason. I find most of these posts to be on the edge of (and some cross the line) of promoting bad behavior by telling people to disconnect, which is explicitly against forum rules.
Almost everyone pushing this is trying to conflate two very different things, where killers have options and agency, and survivors have literally nothing while slugged. It's a false equivalence.
And when I try to point that out, people ignore it. I'm in this exact thread from before it got resurrected asking why not give survivors the option to "hit the killer out" while slugged instead? That would make them equivalent scenarios, but people don't want to look at that, they want to disconnect from a match in progress.
Which is against forum rules.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035174#Comment_4035174
We don't have these kinds of conditions for survivor abandon when all slugged.
Survivors could have unbreakable, no mither, etc and they can still abandon. The final survivor can abandon mid-mori.
Just let killers have no condition free abandon in EGC. It's a 2 minute time save for pointless to play out games.
Survivors could have unbreakable, no mither, etc and they can still abandon.
Force them out is base kit for every killer in the roster.
Remind me which of these options is base kit for survivor? Because they pulled anti slugging, remember.
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@TWiXT said:
In place of Enduring, lets weigh in on the idea of a Temporary incorporeal state:
Killer can't strike, chase, or down the unhooked survivor, but the survivor can't be healed, can't do gens, use items, or block the killer either. Incorporeal survivors move faster with no sounds, scratch marks or blood trails, and once the timer runs out they become corporeal again and can go back to doing normal survivor stuff. This Status is disabled once the gates are powered and any incorporeal survivors cannot exit for 15 seconds after becoming corporeal again (just incase anyone wanted to abuse it for guaranteed endgame escapes).
Pros:
Survivor has a set amount of invulnerability from killer attacks.
Gives time and speed to survivor to find a place of safety away from the killer to heal or do gens.
Killer can't chase the survivor waiting out the timer because the survivor moves fast, leaves no indication of where they went.
Tunneling is rendered "mostly" solved because the survivor can't pull any body block shenanigans off the hook, and killer can't just wait out the Endurance while chasing them off the hook to down them.
Killers near the hook only have Rescuers to pursue.
Cons:
No Enduring body block shenanigans fresh off the hook to give your rescuer a chance to escape.
No immediate healing or hopping on gens after unhook until the timer runs down.
Have to time powering the gates for after unhooking a survivor or the killer can tunnel them out in the endgame.
In the event that rescuer escapes the killer, and killer just happens to run back into the recently unhooked survivor after they've become corporeal again/was lead to them by the rescuer, it doesn't prevent the killer from going after them again.
I Dunno how long the Incorporeal state should be, whether or not the killer should even be able to see the survivor at all during that time, if the length of the state should stay fixed or get longer or shorter per hook state, etc, All I know is that to me, it seems like a much better option than the "Elusive" status with extended "Endurance" which, as the last 2 ptb's have proved, become highly abuseable by survivors. With this option, we trade abuseable off hook tactics for a guarantee escape to safety, and to be fair for the killer, the unhooked survivor also can't do gens until corporeal again, so hooks double as potential gen slowdown too, which incentivizes killers to go for putting more survivors in this state, especially ones with toolboxes. As previously stated, It would "Mostly" fix tunneling, but it's not idiot proof… that's too tall an order to fill with this player base.
Killer can't strike, chase, or down the unhooked survivor, but the survivor can't be healed, can't do gens, use items, or block the killer either
The only limits that should exist are not instantly throwing pallets or using flashlights or flashbangs. And trying to do so blocks the action but makes you vulnerable for a few seconds.
You need to prevent immune survivors from being able to save for free, or literally stand at a pallet and stare at the killer until they throw it, for example.
Not being able to do gens, or heal, or even something like incapacitated, becomes a huge burden to the survivor. Because instead of being in "time out" in this freeze tag game by being on hook, now they're in "time out" by being unhooked.
Which is both terrible gameplay and a gigantic buff to killers overall. Because, effectively, you've made unhooking now a timer where the survivor can now move, but are effectively still hooked and out of the match on a cooldown they have no agency over. (In fact, no one has agency over)
The survivor, at absolute minimum, has to have a way to opt back into the game under their own power by touching a gen, or healing a health state, or interacting with a killers power at the bare minimum to progress the game.
@Zenislev said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4035081#Comment_4035081
There is a solution and it already exists in game; the incapacitated status effect that eruption used to apply. It prevents players with it from interacting with anything. Make it so that when a survivor gets unhooked they're intangible (hell, I'd even say make them invisible to the killer) and make it so that they're incapacitated until their anti-hook protection wears off. If they can't interact with anything until their protection wears off they can't weaponize that protection.
After that its just a matter of adding a condition so that being fully healed ends the off-the-hook protection early so that they can get back into the game once they're healed up.
Incapacitated is even worse for this, and doesn't block pallet throws. The one thing that actually matters here.
I forget if incapacitated prevents interacting with killer powers also (the wiki is no help there), but you have to be able to opt back into the game.
Going from "time out until unhooked" to "time out on a cooldown" is just ridiculous.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034910#Comment_4034910
Wasn´t that the reason why Slugging became a problem in the first place? Because it was negative impact for the Killer to hook at all? You pick up, risking a save, walking to hook, hooking, activating perks like OTR DS and DH. It is a big time investment.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034905#Comment_4034905
The big problem with this is the following mentality. "You won´t heal me? Well here I go to the Killer and screw you over"
Another big problem which was seen on the PTB was that if you give Survivors the safety of beeing save from tunneling it can be weaponized pretty easy together with basekit unbreakable this makes some horrible scenarios. "Hehe I am on death hook, I will go for body blocks. Oh I got downed and slugged for 20 seconds. LETS DO IT AGAIN!" /evil voice off. You see the problem in that I hope.
I once thought about this mechanic. If the Killer picks up a survivor and carries them to a hook all Gens get blocked for the time the Killer invests. But I am unsure about this.
The big problem with this is the following mentality. "You won´t heal me? Well here I go to the Killer and screw you over"
That's why I push for a hook donation system. Survivors can choose to donate their first hook state to the shared pool, and if there's a bad actor like this they can choose not to.
I've also mentioned that this would have a limit of something like 4 minutes or 350% total gen progress across the map, or both, where it locks in hook states and you can no longer donate in mid to late game.
Another big problem which was seen on the PTB was that if you give Survivors the safety of beeing save from tunneling it can be weaponized pretty easy together with basekit unbreakable this makes some horrible scenarios. "Hehe I am on death hook, I will go for body blocks. Oh I got downed and slugged for 20 seconds. LETS DO IT AGAIN!" /evil voice off. You see the problem in that I hope.
Well, they also pulled anti slugging, so this isn't a feature to be concerned about anymore.
But in the scenario with hook donation, the primary goal of the killer is so to eliminate someone as soon as possible, it's just how they do that changes. They will want to burn through hooks as fast as they can.
So, normally, this will be chases, but if someone gets downed body blocking, like your doom scenario here, the killer just gets a free hook and free gen pressure toward their goal.
If the Killer picks up a survivor and carries them to a hook all Gens get blocked for the time the Killer invests
I personally think that non interactive effects like gen blocking and incapacitation should be extremely limited.
I'm not opposed to the idea of giving the killer additional gen speed slowdown during a carry, for example, but that's only if they actually put in meaningful anti tunnel.
Blocking gens, or even slowdown, doesn't fix the "trapper can't cross the map like blight can" problem either.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4034410#Comment_4034410
I've been on these forums for ages, and I don't see people respond to chain hook denial complaints like that.
Mostly because I don't see people complain about chain hook denial in the first place, except 6 pages deep in a forum trench war about anti-tunnel.
And it's really frustrating, because I think it's a valid complaint, it's awful for gameplay in much the same way tunnelling is, and I think this is one particular thing that could be addressed that would hit the seal-team-6 swiffers harder than solo-queue. But the only time it's ever brought up, it's not because people want it fixed, but it's always to complain about survivors getting something fixed on their end.
Even this post, if you ignore the 'as the title says', the very first sentence just leans into the discussions around tunnelling.
It's never an argument of 'Fix this issue', it's always more in the direction of 'Don't fix survivor issues, because this killer issue exists'.
And that's what gets the animosity.
As someone who has also been here for a long time, I have also never seen the outcry of people defending something like hook denial.
I've never seen anyone saying you can't take hook denial away because "it's the only way to win", or "don't punish me for using the optimal strategy", or even "it's a game mechanic, so clearly it's fair game and completely intended as the only strategy I need".
(And, since nuance is completely lost on some people, if there is someone who has posted something like this, it's a single individual that quickly fades into the background. There isn't a huge traction or even a loud, but small, group that feels this way. Most posts about any "objective denial" are in agreement that it sucks for everyone.)
And as much as I don't particularly care for "abandon" as a good solution, this is one of the few cases where it was implemented that isn't controversial. Since "not completing a gen in 10 minutes" is pretty much limited to bully squads.
In fact, the only complaints I've ever seen about the abandon option were right as it launched, when the system incorrectly showed a 4k on the end game screen when this was triggered, where killers would use even the limited 8 kicks to hold the game hostage for 10 minutes and "win by abandon". Which, thankfully, seems to have disappeared once they fixed the end game screen for that situation.
But none of that applies to tunneling. Some people are tunneling apologists, and others seem to believe tunneling is some kind of lifestyle, and defend it using any and every kind of manipulation tactic possible, from gaslighting, whataboutism, and even "nice game you've got here, be a shame if anything happened to it".
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@cogsturning said:
I don't tunnel as killer or use flashlights as survivor. It has yet to make people treat me any better.
This.
Also, I'm not here to tell anyone how to play.
I'm here to tell the devs: "hey, the 'optimal way' to play your game kinda sucks when taken to extremes, maybe you should put some limits on that".
But nuance is completely lost on a lot of people, some people hate any change, and a small number of people really, really love doing it because it sucks.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032897#Comment_4032897
sure, when survivors learn to win without looping then you can tell killers to win without tunneling
Aren't you the guy who claims to win nearly every match by hiding and not engaging in chase at all?
Sounds an awful lot like "not looping" to me...
Pick a stance and stick with it.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031143#Comment_4031143
Fast completion speed has always been the reason that killers adapt "tunneling and slugging" into their gameplay. The only convenient ignorance on display at the moment is the vast majority deeming it to be fine that potential hooking speed cannot compete with potential gen speeds. Demanding restrictions on the only things the killer can do to combat the gen speeds is selfish and near-sighted.
After gens cannot be completed at ridiculous rates is when restrictions to "tunneling and slugging" should be applied if we ever want to truly get to a more positive and fun game state.
Fast completion speed has always been the reason that killers adapt "tunneling and slugging" into their gameplay
Gen speed is the default, "go to" complaint when no one has decided a specific perk, map, or item is the particular flavor of the month.
We know, for a fact, that gen speeds are just an excuse people use, because we have a full years with of live game data that says otherwise.
A year of gen kick, cobruption, Overbrine, and 3 genning allowed killers an entire year of gens taking as long as the killer chose, up to an hour.
We didn't see anyone saying "wow, gens are so slow. I don't have to tunnel anymore!".
What we did see, in huge numbers, was people saying "I have more time to tunnel, and can win games far easier now, so I'm going to tunnel more because I like winning".
Gen speeds are not the actual cause of tunneling in general, as a meta. Demonstrably, provably. With live game data. But that doesn't fit the narrative you want, so you can't admit that.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031166#Comment_4031166
Yeah, what's happening with OTR now? Are they still removing the endurance from it?
Aside from the reduction to 40s basically being permanent, I haven't actually heard if they were reverting any part of it.
I may have missed an announcement or post though, tbf.
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Highly doubtful that this change will be impactful.
And, while I don't think it will be a major difference overall, the choice to time the OTR nerf in the middle of this, as one of the changes they decided to keep, is almost disrespectful.
The first "anti tunneling" PTB resulting in nothing other than an anti tunneling perk nerf, then scrapping the whole thing soon after was a pretty big indicator to the community that things will not ever get better.
This was their chance, and they chose the actual barest minimum, but only after heavily considering the options of doing nothing at all, or just nerfing the perk and nothing else first.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030817#Comment_4030817
There is no cap on gen speed.
Whole I'm not necessarily opposed to a cap on things like haste or overall speed increases and decreases, that's not what I said at all, but it's it what I responded to.
It also conveniently ignores all of the actual limitations they have added such as pretty and item nerfs as well as actual increases to gen times.
Typical moving the goal post, and just now evidence that it will never be enough for some people until kill rates are 100%. It sure wasn't enough when gens could be stalled for an hour, so why would now be any different?
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030754#Comment_4030754
I would argue people start complaining about tunnelling ever since the constant nerfs to killers, like gutting every single gen-defense perks, so killers are more prone to tunnelling to win.
I still remembered many posts saying killers will tunnel more because of the change, but apparently many people think those are doom/threaten posts at that time. And here we are, everyone is surprisingly complain about it.
Btw, while I agree they should buff fog vials a bit, the PTB and release version was literally 'press to win chase' button, which is not healthy at all. Honestly I feel there's just no way to balance this item, either they're too powerful that wins the chase, or they're too weak that they don't do anything. It's either 'Visible', or 'Not Visible'
I still remembered many posts saying killers will tunnel more because of the change
There is nothing they can do that will reduce tunneling unless or until they limit it with game mechanics in some way.
When they buff killers, it's always used to tunnel because there's no limitation on the buff. The gen kick meta lasted a full year and instead of people saying "oh good, I can make gens take an hour and I don't need to tunnel anymore" we got "I can win easier with shower gens by tunneling more often"
And whenever nerfs occur, it's just a threat of "tunneling will happen more if this goes through", but those players would do that already.
It boggles my mind that this is still an issue. It's pretty commonly understood that things like DS or otr have limitations like deactivate in endgame, limited timer, etc. Because limits on "comeback" mechanics are common sense.
Except when it comes to tunneling, apparently, because people consider it a lifestyle instead or something.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030785#Comment_4030785
Also the Japanese stats have a lower kill value compared to the rest of the world by a decent margin showing that unless the Japanese player base are just better at DBD then there has to be a better reason for the worlds kill rate on the fault of the surv side.How do you come to that conclusion?
Maybe they are just worse at killer. I think a more logical explanation is the increased amount of players who play on console and killer is harder on a controller than survivor is.
The Asia region has a pretty strong healing meta, so much so that self care is usually in the top 3 perks used despite other regions not using it as much (sometimes not even top 10).
Which would indicate the matches are slower.
I've also heard from a small number of people on here that particular region also doesn't have near the tunneling meta.
So, one interpretation is that tunneling isn't "necessary to win" and could be limited by the devs and not have catastrophic consequences like some people claim.
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@Anti051 said:
As long as the door is wide open on broken gen speeds, there can't be restrictions on "tunneling" and "slugging."
Thankfully, they've already put several limitations on gen rushing and a huge list of nerfs to keep it in check.
So fixes for tunneling are long overdue, even by your standard.
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@GeneticAnomaly said:
What if 9.4 are all killer buffs and killer systems in place to counter gen rushing and healing too fast?
How the tables turned.
Are they also going to back down and pull the plug on everything like they did this time?
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030267#Comment_4030267
I'd say focusing on gens is how a coordinated team can counter tunneling, not necessarily the other way around. If I'm playing survivor and I notice the killer is hyper-focused on another survivor then that signals to me that I'm free to do even the most unsafe of gens. What do I have to be cautious about - the killer obviously doesn't care about me at that point.
Tunneling easily results in as many 1Ks as it does 4Ks. I don't know why killers cling to it as if it's some clutch play they need to keep in their arsenal.
This exactly.
What exactly do killers think the other 2-3 survivors are doing while the killer is "tunneling"? They aren't going to patiently wait their turn, or, despite what people seem to want, fall apart, panic, and swarm the hook with no idea what to do (which somehow also gets complained about).
They're doing gens. For free.
Tunneling either works, and wins someone the game almost immediately, or it doesn't work, and the killer comes to the forums to complain about gen speeds.
Coincidentally, it tends to "work" when the chases are short with the first person found, and it fails when chases take too long. So it specifically isn't "choosing the weak link", because it's largely RNG as to who you are finding first. It's more "chasing the moving things in front of you until it dies" and hoping you find someone who is worse than you at chase or in a dead zone of the map.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030292#Comment_4030292
Survivors had collision when unhooked on recent PTB, this issue was separate from Elusive. They didnt have collision on the previous PTB, which did cause issues but they just reverted it for the next ptb.
Ah, I got my tests mixed up. Which is what happens when I don't get to test myself.
Thank you, though for correcting!
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So, it was extremely difficult to parse through the complaining to get anything that even remotely resembled "constructive" criticism, but there were two intertwined issues with elusive that are solvable:
Elusive survivors had no collision, but BHVR didn't listen to feedback that they also would have to be unable to be targeted by attacks also. You could, for example, clip physically into your unhooker and tank the hit with the endurance portion, even if the killer was intending to not target you off hook.
The solution to this would be to make the survivor off hook not be targeted by attacks, which solves this issue and creates a potential problem.
If the elusive survivor can't be interacted with or injured, then they can just wait at a pallet or lurk with a flashlight completely invulnerable and the killer can do nothing about it. So, in addition to being unattackable and having no collision, we would need to restrict certain actions, but not everything.
For example, things like flashlights, flashbangs, pallet drops would have to be prohibited, but conspicuous actions like medkits, or working on a gen would still have to be options for the survivor to "opt out" and allow them to participate in the match again fully.
But I can understand how this wasn't clear, since people screaming "abuse" from 12 different alt accounts at once doesn't really effectively communicate these details.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030191#Comment_4030191
Generator charges increased from 65 to 70
Generator charges increased from 70 to 80
Generator charges increased from 80 to 90
Toolboxes nerfed multiple times
Stacking repair penalty introduced for multiple survivors on the same gen
Stacking repair penalty increased
Great skill check bonus halved
Reduced gen kicking interaction time
Doubled immediate regression from kicking gens
Requirement to repair 5% to stop regressing gens
Prove Thyself nerfed to give a smaller bonus to coop repair
Survivors spawning together to make spreading out on gens early more difficult
"NONE in all the game lifespan to address gen rushing" btw
Brand New part also nerfed twice. First from instant gen completion to bonus gen progress, then to the current version with a flat reduction in total charges required.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029893#Comment_4029893
Without agency, there's no reason to engage. The game hasn't fully entered the realm of comp. title either, so I don't see any reason why queuing up while fatigued should be so heavily punished. The queue is still running, is it not?
That's the issue with where the game is right now, in my opinion. It's designed to enforce an imbalance, regardless of how it feels, and then players that are tired of feeling like they're at the mercy of things beyond their control or their skill level are being punished for not enjoying themselves. And the solution? Calls for harsher punishments.
Unless we can course correct, I don't see the game thriving ever again. It will likely end up on life support, I think.
I don't see any reason why queuing up while fatigued should be so heavily punished. The queue is still running, is it not?
I mainly agree. I wouldn't go as far as to remove a dc penalty entirely, and I think having something to give players a bit of pause or even consequence for doing so is a good thing.
Basically, what we have now is enough to prevent unintentional disconnects like Internet, power, or even server issues from overly punishing innocent players, but still something to keep people from fully lobby shopping.
I don't know that I would really change much about the current system either direction, but I honestly put much thought into it. I don't really sit around dreaming of punishing other players like some people seem to.
I certainly don't think that the people who continue to scream "punish them" really have the game's best interest at heart, and some seem to be taking the "power role" concept too far and trying to apply it outside of game as well. (This also applies to how some people talk to the devs like they own them, but I digress)
Unless we can course correct, I don't see the game thriving ever again. It will likely end up on life support, I think.
I generally agree. It is apparently a cycle of applying punishment, when that doesn't work demand more punishment.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves" and "if brute force doesn't work, you aren't using enough".
I think that there are fixable issues at play, and can be addressed, at least in principle. But if people continue to "not allow" the devs to impact any pain points at all, then the game will simply diminish at some point.
Probably not "die" outright, but certainly the target audience, or even the core game will change (if, say, 2v8 becomes permanent). But even now, the same cycle of conversations is attempting to take 2v8 from a casual, loosely balanced, party game mode and force it into competitive balance. Which is what has already happened in the main game, for better or worse.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029908#Comment_4029908
there is a difference between backlash and intentionally being disruptive by breaking the rules, griefing is breaking the rules and should be punished now matter what reason they give for breaking them.
if i was spawn camped and couldnt play i wouldnt play the game. i wouldnt start a match knowing i am highly likely to get spawn camped then DC and ruin it for the rest of the team. thats my point.
by removing the DCers from the game it might lower player count but it would likely increase it long term when other people know their matches wont get ruined. i have friends that refuse to play the game because of people going next, swap the DCers out for the people that actually want to play the game. banning hackers lowers the player count, but allow them to hack and people wont want to play, this is what will happen if DCing is allowed to continue
if i was spawn camped and couldnt play i wouldnt play the game. i wouldnt start a match knowing i am highly likely to get spawn camped then DC and ruin it for the rest of the team.
In this analogy, you personally are doing an awful lot of defending the "spawn camping" today.
You don't think you'd argue that, maybe, spawn camping needs some limitations? Maybe that shouldn't be the "optimal way" to play the game for the other team?
Maybe, just possibly, that the devs should really ask if spawn camping is how they want their game to be played, and if it isn't, what are the changes they will make to allow you and your team to actually play out a match?
And, in this scenario, the people spawn camping are also demanding that they receive compensation for any changes, and insist that "if their guns just did more damage they would spawn camp less, trust me".
Sounds pretty unreasonable in that context too, tbh.
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@CorvidXCVIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029876#Comment_4029876
I'm EU based and yeah, my experiences with this game seem to be quite different from yours or Pulsar's (not discrediting either of you). All of the following is my experience, it most likely won't resonate with you but it's how things were for me.
The 6.1.0 patch happened during the time DbD was an almost daily game for me and a couple of friends. It wasn't that update that lead to us all eventually drifting and I don't recall tunneling being any more or less common during it either. In fact, tunneling wasn't very common at all, especially compared to how it's been since I came back (just before Kaneki's release).
Yeah I understand that EU, Oceanic, and NA are all very different games. Though, the only way I could check personally would be vpn, and I don't really want to do that. I'm content to take people's word for it.
But yeah, my friend group used to play daily until 6.1 and we all kind of drifted away or lost interest after that.
One of my most memorable games that I remember personally feeling burned out by was a wraith on Groaning Storehouse. He hooked Ada, then came over to kick the gen I was working on by main. I was standing in plain view no more than 8m from the gen and he just went back to tunnel her out. It was 3v1 at 5 gens, and I basically couldn't even play the game even though the killer was actively ignoring everyone else. The "counter" to eruption was not touching the gen until the next down, which was nearly as bad as being incapacitated for 26 seconds (and sometimes worse, depending on chase length).
Totally engaging and riveting gameplay, but at least tunneling was a nearly guaranteed win for people who decided to take advantage of the new meta.
That was the game I realized I was personally getting burned out and frustrated, and took a break from the game myself.
I keep hoping to see patch notes that will make this game a daily play again, maybe even bring my friends back, but so far I think I'm just hanging onto a dream that will never be realized.
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@CorvidXCVIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029857#Comment_4029857
Sorry, I should've been more clear I was joking given the forum we're on haha. That being said an endgame only limited time mode could be fun for a game or two.
No worries. I've had people be sarcastic or serious.
Out of curiosity, what servers do you play on?
NA East, though the time of day might vary. My schedule is currently really erratic with the holiday, so if I play at all it's usually like 5pm to 8pm EST.
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@Lliart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029857#Comment_4029857
I would rather the slowdown of early game and limits with any tunneling be congruent with each other, as those are two GIANT changes that if either side got only one of, would ruin the game for all.
That being said though, I truly don't think that would solve the issue of the go next epidemic. With a previous poster's observation, none of the reasons for DCing on first sight before any gameplay can be done are explicitly told to be tunneling. In the endgame chat, the DC reason is more often than not simply "Playing X killer that takes no skill" "I don't like X Killer, they're boring" "X Killer, what a loser" "X perk, [random threat here]" "Noob X Killer" and so on and so forth. While tunneling may be a symptom, I truly, TRULY believe it is simply just selfish individuals who would rather tank the game they queued up for instead of playing it through.
Earnestly, I'd rather just have both of the top suggestions there enter at the same time, as well as the iteration of harsher penalties for successive disconnects.
I would rather the slowdown of early game and limits with any tunneling be congruent with each other, as those are two GIANT changes that if either side got only one of, would ruin the game for all.
Pretty much agree. Although we've already seen that big changes are nearly impossible to have go through in one go, and there appears to be a pretty vocal group who would be fighting to have any downsides removed and maintain the benefits. And, for the record, that applies to either "side".
I truly don't think that would solve the issue of the go next epidemic
I've said before that there's no "one size fits all" approach to addressing the go next issue. Some people are petty, and you can't really fix that. But trying to paint everyone as petty, and ignoring frustration in the process, isn't going to fix the other part of it either.
There's a reason I try to focus on what we can actually fix. The "petty" issue was already targeted with increased dc penalties and forcing people to work off their dc debt. That hasn't solved the majority of the problem, because targeting the "petty reasons" isn't hitting the larger issues.
We could double down and increase dc penalties. They already aren't fixing the problem, and we'll have this same conversation in a year about "it's just not quite enough punishment yet… but this time it'll really work".
Or we could tackle the actual, demonstrable balance issues instead (for the first time in 9 years) and see what impact that makes.
This "epidemic" came from somewhere, and I have no evidence that it's because a huge group of players somehow became petty overnight.
Actually talking balance related problems would require people to accept change, not take the "simplest approach" and demonstrate the game skill most everyone claims to have already. And so far, we can't even get to the table to talk about what those changes might look like, because people appear to want "incentives and no limits", which have historically never worked, and we have the live game to show that.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029838#Comment_4029838
- as you say people have been sent a clear message that tunneling wont have meaningful changes… with that in mind people should know its very much part of the game and likely to stay. At this point people need to decide, accept it and play the game or dont. But DCing after they have agreed to play the game knowing what the game is, thats what needs preventing which more DC punishments and prevention will help to achieve this. I wouldnt play an FPS game and then DC when something which is part of the game happens like someone shooting at me. i couldnt say the reason i DC is because im being shot at. This is whats happening, something that even the devs have pretty much said is part of the game is being used as a reason for DCing which is crazy. can you imagine if killers had the option to DC and go next as easy as survivors can? any time they get looped they would DC in a heartbeat because they could. would the solution be to stop loops or stop killers from being able to DC frequently?
- i dont think tunneling increased when the meta was 3gening and when matches took a lot longer. i didnt tunnel and i didnt come across tunneling as much as survivor either so i have no idea where you get that from. the whole point to meta is that its the most effective strat and commonly used. its a contradiction to say meta is one thing but majority are using a less effective strat.
- based on my own experience as killer and survivor the increase in DCing ties in with the time where abandon was introduced and survivors got the go next prevention nerfed along side the release of ghoul. People DCed long before that but its been since roughly march/april that DC really took off and has been getting worse as time goes on. when i say DC i include go next and abandon because they are all one in the same, a way for a player to not play the match and move on as fast as possible.
with that in mind people should know its very much part of the game and likely to stay
So take that same "nothing will change"mentality and apply it to everything. Change nothing, and nothing will get better, including things you seem to be very passionate about (this applies directly to gen rushing also).
i dont think tunneling increased when the meta was 3gening and when matches took a lot longer
You have been wrong before and are absolutely wrong about this as well. Killers would go kick gens until the notification told them to go tunnel because eruption could single handedly give them all the time they needed.
It absolutely got worse after 6.1.0, which gave us the gen kick and 3 gen metas until they finally fixed it.
People DCed long before that
Original reports of "go next epidemic" started in October 2024. Abandon wasn't implemented until 8.6.0 in April 2025. The timeline doesn't fit the narrative you're trying to push.
Because you apparently can't admit that there are other issues that could be at play here. Even despite being lead to them and pointed to them directly.
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@CorvidXCVIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029838#Comment_4029838
We could streamline the game down a bunch.
-Remove gens entirely, the gates start powered. Genrush solved.
-Survivors only get one hook state. Tunneling solved.
You could, though the game pace being to fast is also a common complaint. Though I think you're just being sarcastic about things I both didn't say and don't mean.
I'm on record as saying that gen speeds can be addressed and likely the entire early game needs to be slowed down. But that has to start with limits to tunneling in the early game. Because we've already seen what happens when gens take longer and the answer is that people tunnel more because that also made tunneling easier.
Fix tunneling and we can also address gen speeds. You can't fix gen speeds first, they tried and it demonstrably didn't work.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029695#Comment_4029695
firstly, you making the same assumptions regarding people DCing due to tunneling i mean how can you say generally people DC with tunneling being the reason? are you psychic? although im confident i know the reasons because people actually say them in the post lobby or in stream like ttv players. i rarely see anyone say the reason for the DC was due to being tunneled.
tunneling has existed from day 1 of the game, it isnt a new thing that recently popped up causing a sudden DC epidemic. what is new is the abandon system and the new DC penalty system making it easier for people to DC, abandon and go next more often than they have ever been able to do before. This fits exactly what i have been saying, allow people to DC and they will. stopping tunneling wont stop people DCing over something else.
like you said people go into a match knowing they will lose at some point and they accept that when they start the match. people know they will probably get tunneled, they accept that when they start the match. they expect it, they know its highly likely to happen. dont like it? dont accept and play the match. you cant say "i know what will happen, i will play anyway and when it does happen just DC.
The reason tunneling still continues is simply because survivors refuse to accept that matches are too fast and will not have gen speeds nerfed. cant have it both ways….you want fast matches where gens can be done in 5min, sure, killers are going to kill fast to keep up, hence the tunneling. many killers have said they are fine with tunneling being nerfed if they have more time to spread hooks. i have said myself, im good with tunneling being flat out removed as an option as long gen speeds get slowed down so i have time to spread hooks, there is a solution but its survivors that wont accept they need to play ball.
it isnt a new thing that recently popped up causing a sudden DC epidemic
Never said tunneling was new. What happened a year ago was that the devs had actively changed the game balance in favor of the killer and announced around that time that they had hit their goal of 60% kill rates.
As a result, and by-product, of those buffs and changes, tunneling had also been directly and indirectly buffed as well. Especially since there's been no limit to it.
And about a year ago. Was when we first had the "go next epidemic" pop up
Now, it's happening again, apparently, just as the devs announce and start testing anti tunneling changes, then immediately back down and broadcast to everyone that they can't or won't be making meaningful changes to tunneling.
So, while people shouldn't dc, for people burned out by tunneling, they have been sent a pretty clear message that the devs have no interest in fixing the problem, and it's going make people more frustrated and feel more burned out.
Which is what I've been saying.
The reason tunneling still continues is simply because survivors refuse to accept that matches are too fast and will not have gen speeds nerfed
This is entirely wrong, and a completely false narrative.
We had an entire year, in the live game, where gens took as long as the killer chose. Those metas even had names:
Cobruption, gen kick, Overbrine, and 3 gen.
In some of those cases, gens took the full hour to complete and were still not done.
And tunneling only increased. But, to hear you attempt to paint it the way you want, you'd think that tunneling was eradicated for that year.
It absolutely wasn't. And we can take from that that tunneling had nothing to do with gen speeds, and isn't in any way "a response", nor would "tunneling get better if gens were slower".
That's not a hypothetical, or my opinion. That's data and facts from having that exact scenario for a full year of live gameplay.
Slowing down gens is demonstrably not going to reduce tunneling. If anything, we know the opposite is true, and tunneling gets worse when killers have more time to tunnel someone out.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029812#Comment_4029812
Regardless if tunneling is a problem or not, it does not excuse a survivor DCing simply because they were the first found.
It also does not excuse the practice of not moving away from the hook if the killer does happen to return. Not all killers are going to go after the unhooked. But if you hand it to them on a silver platter then you lose all rights to complain.
Regardless if tunneling is a problem or not, it does not excuse a survivor DCing simply because they were the first found.
I've already said numerous times that I don't support or condone disconnecting as a response to anything.
Ideally, i'd like to have solutions to the problems that underly that if that's actually possible. And I believe that it is in the cases that I've outlined already.
But you continuing to try and paint this as me "excusing behavior" is, at best, not reading it understanding what I'm saying, and, at worst, an attempt to set up talking points that I'm not actually saying in any way.
This last post had nothing to do with what you responded to, which makes me think you're just taking to either yourself.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029621#Comment_4029621
Also, no. I don't tell killers to tunnel. I also don't tell them not to tunnel. Because how someone plays is not my decision to make.
Do I tunnel? Not by default. Many of my matches I will outright ignore the unhooked survivor in favor of the healthy survivor. Only when the survivor side is playing like this is for money do I play less forgiving to mistakes and bad plays.
how someone plays is not my decision to make.
True. Which is why I word things to be directed largely at the devs.
It's their fault that the most effective way to play the game is unengaging for all 5 players and unfun for everyone.
It's up to them to change that (being that the efficient method to play is more engaging). That could be making tunneling someone out more interesting for everyone, but I doubt it.
The alternative means making tunneling less effective so we can also address things like gen speed, assuming the tunneling issue doesn't already solve that as well. (Since engaging more survivors automatically means less time on gens also).
Ideally, whatever solution it is ends in all 5 players have a more fun experience overall.
Unfortunately, there are some extremely loud voices that don't want anything to change at all, and that is impeding progress for everyone else.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
As I said… I am not a friend of tunneling or slugging either, cause I am a Survivor main aswell.
The problem is the bigger picture of what could happen. The could is the important part.
I have not the exact time of how fast the fastest escape was. But if I remeber correctly it is under 3 Minutes.
Just the possibility that this exists and could happen to you lets some people go for such tactics because we all play to win at the end.
Let me break it down for you.
Imagine you are playing Doctor. You have to run to the other side of the map, find the Survivors, they pre run. You need 10 to 20 seconds if (that is important) they don´t loop you at all. You hit them and they get a sprint burst in a straight line. You need to catch up again and if they don´t loop again you get an easy down. You pick the survivor up and bring them to a hook and hook them.
This "easy" down (Easy because the Survivor didn´t try to loop you) took other a third of such a game even if I scale the numbers down.
- Finding Survivor 20 seconds.
- Catching up and hitting the Survivor 10 seconds
- Catching up and hitting the Survivor again 10 Seconds
- picking up and carrying him to hook 5-10 seconds
And now there are people who say "Well take your time and look if Survivors are really trying to Gen rush you" If I take time in this example with an easy to catch survivor which didn´t loop or predrop a single pallet more than half of the game is over.
I know these games are not the norm but belive me or not the 4 man slug on 5 gens isn´t normal aswell. If this happens the Killer has to hit 8 Survivors which could use Shift W while all other sit on Gens. If they don´t sit on gens it is not the Killers fault only the Survivors.
Is it ######### to get tunneld out while you team does exactly nothing. Ofcourse it is. But if and i speak hypothentical here "IF" you run into a team which does something you are not able to spread hooks and go for a friendly 12 hook.
I am honest with you I wish it could be different but all I see right now is that if the Killer goes for a 12 hook game and archives it. Than we would have lost in any other way aswell. Is it MMR fault or my mates which do nothing I can´t tell.
I have not the exact time of how fast the fastest escape was. But if I remeber correctly it is under 3 Minutes.
The fastest 4k was just over a minute to slug everyone. The longest win streak was over 2000 by blight. And even the best 4 man SWF could barely hit 240.
Pretending that world records are somehow your "common, everyday experience" is just disingenuous.
I personally don't see a ton of value with using extreme outliers for conversation because most people agree that the game shouldn't be balanced around the extreme elite, and should be balanced more for the average player.
Imo. Part of balancing for the average player also means they should be choosing different strategies at different times of the match or in different circumstances. This is true for survivors: you can even plan to "gen rush" but is the killer chases you, you are forced to be decent in chase, your game knowledge of countering that particular killer kit is tested, you need to know how to use loops, pallets, and check points effectively.
But killer doesn't have that equivalent "change your tactic". You can tunnel at the start of the game, and never have to change strategies. Even though nearly everyone recognizes that spreading hooks is generally considered higher skill than not doing so... So why are people clutching so tightly to a simple strategy that not only ruins the match for people when done excessively, but also demonstrates less killer will in the process?
The answer here is that having one thing that is simple enough that a starter player will try that is also extremely effective is what people want. And, for a much smaller number, ruining the match for others is also a benefit.
Let me break it down for you.
The plural of anecdote is not data. That counts double for hypotheticals.
Nearly all of those interactions and "issues" that you present here have a component of player skill, or game knowledge, or game sense.
So, for many players, taking too long to find survivors, kicking gens at 5 percent, wandering the map blindly, and then chasing inefficiently with taking loops too wide, zoning and looping incorrectly, not knowing which pallets are playable or not, and on which killers are fundamentals that these players lack.
And those all cost time. Usually, that's going to be right at the start of the game. So once someone fulbles through all of these and gets a hook, they also tend to find that 3-4 minutes have passed, and with 3 survivors free to do gens, they also seem surprised that 3 gens are done. But this is all the that can be trimmed, if people actually analyzed their own gameplay and didn't just automatically blame the game.
Here's the real problem: tunneling is so overly effective that players can easily stomp survivors of their own skill level. Doing this boosts their MMR to a point where they are going against survivors who are at a higher skill level than they are, and these inefficiencies add up. This is largely where "feeling forced to tunnel" and "have no choice" arguments come into play.
Forcing players to engage in different strategies, improving their gameplay, going against appropriate MMR opponents are all good things. Even if change requires an MMR reset as well. Unfortunately, the devs are demonstrably incapable of making changes that will make any of that happen.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029621#Comment_4029621
I give you some credits.
Yes Gen rushing is less common in games but who has fault on that?
Is it the Killers fault or is it little Timmy and little Jessica which are doing boons and searching through chests?
The big problem as Killer is you only know what you are going against when the game is over.
If you try to spread hooks maybe you got the nice little lobby of goofing survivors or you get an efficient team which has all gens done when you go for your third hook.
I know that not many will approve with me in this point but sadly Survivors dictate the game. You are the one going in the game with a plan. This can be different plans. like I will sabo any hook I see, I will use Head on into Ds into flashbang because I think it is funny or Lol dude lets go 4 man and rush the hell out of gens.
The Killer has to react to this and sadly the most efficient way is to tunnel and to slug. Don´t get me wrong, I don´t like this either but if you go for a walk with a survivor for a minute there is a huge difference if 0 Gens get done because they are goofing around or 3 gens pop and you think. Damn I should try to play if I want to win.
who has fault on that?
The devs. Flat out, full stop. The devs are at fault here.
Here's the thing. And I understand that gen rushing and tunneling get compared a lot, even though they aren't identical opposites. I do it to try and explain the mindset in this case.
Hard tunneling at 5 gens is not a response to anything. You are taking a comeback mechanic (tunneling) and using it immediately because there's nothing in the game to stop the killer from doing that. There's no restriction to it, no limitation, and the only downside to tunneling is the exact thing that people complain about as the "reason", including you in this exact post.
Hard tunneling focused on one survivor and leaves 3 people to do largely whatever they want. People seem completely surprised (or some are enraged) when those 3 are doing gens. For free during that time.
And tunneling right away involves aspects that are determined by how the killer plays: how fast can you locate survivors, close out chases, zone, loop, and mindgame, or even using the killer kit effectively. The longer those things take (which is skill expression) the more time survivors have to do gens largely for free.
Which touches on the other thing:
I know that not many will approve with me in this point but sadly Survivors dictate the game
Absolutely, 100% backwards and is honestly part of the problem. The killer dictates gameplay, survivor gameplay is a reaction to the killer. If the killer is afk, the game is "do gens and leave", the only reason people aren't able to do that is because they have to react to what the killer is doing.
These reaction is called "pressure", and it's "doing something other than gens because they have to". The fact that 2025 dbd killer players don't understand this is also a failing of the devs.
And you can demonstrate that the killer drives gameplay:
If a survivor goes into a match with the intention of "gen rushing" and the killer decides to chase them... They can't gen rush. You physically can't work on gens with the killer chasing you unless the killer allows it consciously and actively.
If the killer goes into a match with the intention of "tunneling" there's nothing you can do to stop that. You can try to body block. Until you're downed and the killer goes back to tunneling. And, coincidentally, you've given the killer more pressure and less gen progress for having done so.
The other main reason tunneling is not a response, is because tunneling is a comeback mechanic. You can resort to tunneling late or end game as a "fall back" or comeback mechanic and still get a kill or more out of it. You. Cannot. Ever "resort to" gen rushing once someone is out of the game.
And that's not possible, again. Because in 3v1 the entire survivor team it's occupied by the killer. Which is how 4v1 could almost be, with 3 of them occupied, but people opt to allow survivors to do gens for free and focus on one because it's easier and pays off immediately when it works.
The only "punishment" for hard tunneling at 5 gens is that the other survivors will do gens when left alone. So "gen rushing" is an immediate consequence of hard tunneling. Period.
Limiting tunneling early would help fix both issues. But, as we've seen on live, you can make gens take up to an hour and it doesn't lessen tunneling. Instead, it actively made it worse.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029621#Comment_4029621
i dont see a connection with DCing and tunneling. the reasons people give for DCing have nothing to do with tunneling. reasons such as "dont like the map" or "oh pyramid head, dont like that killer" "my team mates are avoiding gens so why bother looping if no one is going to do gens while the killer is chasing me". people DC over anything and to blame it on tunneling being the core problem is avoiding the whole point which is people will DC a match they are not interested in playing if they are able to. stopping tunneling wont stop people from DCing over a map they dont like.
would you tell killers they should wait untill they are sure of whats happening…..this is exactly what many survivors are saying to killers. "its ok to tunnel when you need to, maybe mid to end match but dont do it at the start at 5 gens". this is telling killers dont tunnel untill you know whats happening and know you need to.
you say tunneling is expected which is why people DC, they know whats coming. If its expected and know whats coming, why bother starting the match? The know whats coming and yet they decide to play knowing this, then DC ruining it for other people.
the reasons people give for DCing have nothing to do with tunneling. reasons such as "dont like the map" or "oh pyramid head, dont like that killer" "my team mates are avoiding gens
You are very confident to know everyone's thoughts and intentions. Congratulations on being psychic. (You're wrong).
Petty people and petty reasons do exist. However, you do not get an "epidemic level" uptick in a problem because "people became petty overnight". That isn't how things work, and doesn't fit your pre-concieced idea of this, and because of that you can't even get around it.
There's also this narrative of "can't fix the problem, do nothing" that people have been pushing. Because they really want the "do nothing" result.
you say tunneling is expected which is why people DC, they know whats coming. If its expected and know whats coming, why bother starting the match?
Here's the thing. And I'll explain this to everyone reading who only comes at this from a killer mindset:
You don't play survivor with the expectation to escape every game. You're going to lose at some point, and death is going to happen. That's the devs goal with a 40% escape rate. They've said as much.
Why bother starting any match if you're going to lose? Oh, wait. People do, maybe because they get to do a variety of things, and play a "well rounded game" with some killer interaction, some time out, altruism, quest progress, working on gens, hiding, and so on. Survivor can be fun.
And you go into a match with the idea that that could happen, and sometimes does. You get that, unique DbD speaking hit of having played an actually fun match... Even if you didn't personally survive that match. Sometimes. Until sometimes becomes "rarely".
And people chase that experience. But when you get game after game of "the killer has decided to play the tunneling card at the start of the game" that gets frustrating. Then burnout once it happens too long.
I'm speaking from experience, not as someone who disconnected or gave up, but someone who has completely stopped playing survivor because it stopped being a good experience most of the time.
And the reasons it stopped being a good experience are things that people vehemently defend and refuse to allow the devs to address core problems such as putting any kind of limitation or restriction on hard tunneling whatsoever.
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@Lliart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029621#Comment_4029621
So I see your point, but to just flat out excuse people DCing off of the first down, or even BEFORE the first down, just hearing a terror radius, is absurd. In addition, I would still tell that killer player to play the match out, even if 'gen-rushing' is occurring. It is childish to disconnect just because a playstyle one doesn't like is in play, and even more so if a person is playing a character one doesn't like.
In fact, I've had players try to go next versus The Unknown as the chase was about to start just the other night. The point of this thread, of bringing the issue up, is to bring attention to how going next before the game even starts is asinine.
I'm not excusing anything, to be clear. I'm trying to explain the exasperated, frustration that can lead to this behavior.
Because everyone can feel this, and killers describe the same feelings of hopelessness. If you read my first statement, I deliberately write it to be "side neutral" because "the match being decided in the first 2 minutes" is everyone's complaint.
People shouldn't dc, unfortunately, they are. And unless or until we start addressing some of those reasons they do, it likely won't get any better.
But, we seem to be incapable of addressing any of the reasons people get extremely frustrated that leads to this behavior.
And, again. This isn't intended to be a "one size fits all" solution. Petty people and petty reasons exist. But we don't get a "massive, epidemic level uptick in giving up" because people suddenly get more or became petty, immediately.
But addressing the core reasons would require change, and in some cases that change is absolutely unconscionable to some very, very loud members of the community, and the devs back down and do nothing meaningful about the problem.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029048#Comment_4029048
Being found first isn't a death sentence. Survivors that DC because of it don't wait to see if the killer will play in a way they prejudge them to play. They DC before being picked up.
Sure, but my point is that. Since tunneling is not just meta, but a play style that people insist and demand remain... To the point of dropping a nuclear bomb on the devs during the PTB, that players are absolutely conditioned to expect it, even when it may or may not happen. And conditioned because probably 8 out of 10 of their recent games have had someone tunneled out immediately.
Let me put this a different way: gen rushing, as in, actual full blown "4 man showing up to speed run the match", is far, far less common than tunneling. Would you tell killers that they should "wait until they're sure that's what's happening"?
Because the answer seems to always, always be that they feel "forced to tunnel because of gen speeds".
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029062#Comment_4029062
The problem is that people can DC. BHVR has made DCing and go next easier via 20 matches to reset and the abandon option. Now people use up the free DC then go next the rest or abandon untill they can DC again. so the reason why are still having this discussion is because the punishment for DCing has been lessened which is why people are still doing it. its impossible to fix the reasons why they DC when the reasons are so petty such as map they dont like, killer they dont like, found first, downed first, swf buddy killed on hook. For years people would DC in loading screen over a map offering they didnt like. Last night i saw multiple people DCing throughout the night and a lot of them were as soon as they saw the killer. killers like trapper, hag, onryo, wraith.
Look at hackers and cheaters…. there is no reason why they would cheat but they do. same applies to the mindset of DCing. can you imagine how many cheaters there would be with no punishment? the argument then wouldnt be to address the core issue of why people cheat….
There is an incredibly simple solution to disconnections that also serves a dual purpose:
You simply lock the player to the match they're in until the match ends or their character is killed. If they drop from the match for any reason, and try to queue up again it will reconnect them to the match in progress.
This does two things. For unintentional disconnects, it's a qol feature. It still sucks to be disconnected, and you lose some progress in the match, but you get to play it out as best you can. Overall win.
For intentional disconnects, it eliminates all of the "petty" reasons since it doesn't solve anything. They are automatically in time out until the match is over if they wait in lobby (so automatic time out) and if they choose to requeue it puts them back in the same match they just left. Disconnecting stops being an automatic "out" and this serves as punishment.
It's a win win.
It doesn't solve the issue that people will find other ways to throw the match or be obnoxious, but honestly, neither does the "punish them more" of just having a harsher DC penalty.
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@BongoBoys said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029051#Comment_4029051
False because the DC penalty system is to loose if we continue tighten it we will see less people doing it.
Its not abusable since the moderation team will be going over it and judge it for themselves.
False
No, we increased the dc penalty. It hasn't worked out you wouldn't have posted this at all. My statement was completely correct.
Doubling down on this is not going to work either.
Its not abusable since the moderation team will be going over it and judge it for themselves.
It's 100 percent abusable, and making it a further burden on a moderation team isn't going to help.
If your basic premise is that "people are petty" you have to understand that the obvious conclusion must also be that people will report for anything, regardless of validity.
I don't even believe that "most" people are petty, but acknowledge that "some" are, and "you didn't play how I wanted" and "I'm unhappy with the match outcome" are immediately "reasons" people could and would report for this.
Your argument premise has the immediate consequence that this is highly abusable.
You, personally, are advocating for more active punishments. Of course people will report if they believe this will lead to punishing someone, regardless of if that is actually a valid use of the system or not.
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@brewingtea said:
So if it didn't work this time, why would it work next time?
Because the current punishments are a joke. Even in this thread, people are talking about giving "free" DCs, like, once a day. And that's a suggestion to INCREASE the penalties! There should be no freebies, bans start at 5min and ramp up.
There should be no freebies, bans start at 5min and ramp up.
So, even genuine internet or power outages, or even server issues (BHVR has been ddos'd more than once) should punish the player?
That's an interesting take, particularly one that might be controversial in regions that also complain about high ping (oceanic) or areas that don't have dedicated servers (I believe South Africa).
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@Lliart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4029048#Comment_4029048
This however is that mind set of forgone conclusions. Just because someone is found first does not always mean they'll die on that first hook. In addition, this overlooks the people that will disconnect instantly because they hear a terror radius they do not like. The fact of the matter is that one person going down between 2 to 4 minutes is not a doomed match and still has the possibility to come back.
If that were the case, all four survivors would disconnect from the start. Most cases Are a domino effect caused by one selfish individual who disconnects, followed by the rest slowly over time.
So, I never said dying on first hook. Tunneling is meta, and has been for a while. So being found first just means that you're also likely to be chased off hook to death without doing much else. You can't do gens, be altruistic, do challenges, etc.
And for the other three survivors, that means staring at a progress bar and hoping that your teammate can hold out long enough with map RNG, matchmaking, loadouts, and other factors.
And, being meta, it isn't necessarily a "forgone conclusion" as much as the expected outcome from constant exposure and frustration.
I've always said that people can be petty, but that's always been the case. We don't get an "epidemic" and increase because people are "more petty" suddenly. They're "more frustrated" because they just announced that nothing meaningful is going to be done about tunneling for the foreseeable future.
And, to make the point twice over: they revamped the dc penalty a year ago because people claimed then that "the dc epidemic is only pettiness, and they should be punished". Well, that hasn't solved it, and that's because the dc penalty targets the wrong problem (people being petty).
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I'm not sure I see much benefit, tbh. We had the original "go next epidemic" about a year ago and they revamped and tuned up the dc system to force 20 "no disconnect" games to clear your penalty and forced people to be logged in to serve their penalties also.
It didn't work, and I personally believe that the core problem for most people is that the match is decided in the first about 2 minutes, and for many that means they don't get a chance to actually play. We still aren't addressing that core issue so I don't think extra punishment is the solution to the bigger problem.
Imo the fact that we're still having this discussion at all tells me that disconnect penalties aren't making things better and are probably the wrong choice.
It didn't work once, I don't think doubling down will help.
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@BongoBoys said:
Make DC penalties harsher and make reportable Go-Next button so you can report people for going next
Increased dc penalty already didn't work. Demonstrably.
Also,
make reportable Go-Next button so you can report people for going next
Is possibly the most abusable concept I've read in a long time.
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@Lliart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028970#Comment_4028970
That, while being a valid thought, does not really help when people are disconnecting after the first down in the entire match. If it's not a blight with lethal, then it's a Springtrap trying for adept, or a wraith with a balanced build. The buck needs to stop being passed just because it's easy to say that any killer isn't fun to go against.
Having an immediately over, hopeless match is the core problem though. And everyone complains about that since matches are largely decided in the first, roughly, two minutes.
But instead of being able to meaningfully fix the fact that being found first means you don't get to play the match at all, the current narrative is to chalk it up to "pettiness".
Because fixing the core game balance problem is simply not allowed by some in this community.
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At its core, DbD is an elimination game. Nothing will really change the fact that killing survivors will always be some component of the win condition (or all of it).
But because of this, the shortest path to victory will generally be to eliminate at least one survivor as soon as possible. Even if hooks are considered a "win condition" in some sense, the best way to maximize that will be to eliminate one, then spread hooks however you choose in a 3v1. (Which is kind of how it works now).
So if you want to change gameplay, to make people want to spread hooks from the start of the match, there needs to be several changes to make that happen. The biggest ones being:
- Hooks would have to be a prerequisite to eliminations. (In this context, more than just 3 hooks or nothing changes).
- Overall rebalance so that the pace of the game is more consistent. Basically, slowing down the part of the game until the first elimination for the killer. Depending on how this is done, possibly slowing down the part of the game after the first elimination for the survivors.
- MMR reset so players aren't experiencing massive losing streaks during adjustment.
Ideally, hooking survivors should be the most efficient use of the killers time. So, like things were before 6.1, the killer should feel pressure to always be in chase, always pursue that next hook, and things like kicking gens, camping, or waiting around for someone to unhook should be generally regarded as a waste of time in most cases. This drives gameplay, engages all players, and focuses on the macro and micro of PVP instead of PvE objective control.
I've said this before, but my general proposal for this is a "hook donation" system. Essentially, every survivor can choose to donate their first hook state to a "shared hook pool" and "second hook" and "death hook" remain individual.
Survivors can only donate during the first, say, 4* minutes of the match or until 350%* total gen progress is completed (whichever is first), or can choose to keep their hook state in case a bad actor decides to just feed the killer for any reason.
Similarly, reduce gen speed by a lot, like 50%, until the 4* minute mark or the gen progress mark(*) are hit.
Once gens are completed (or, better yet, 500% total gen progress across the map), we can choose to refund the shared hooks (in order of donation), or simply delete them.
Eliminating a survivor is still the primary goal, but how to do it changes: instead of wasting time, killers will want to burn through hook states as fast as possible. That basically means always being in chase. You could simply chase the first survivor you see and hook then 6 times, but you're likely to lose that game doing so because you spent so much time doing nothing.
Numbers are up for debate and can be changed. But likely this system will never actually be implemented, since it involves making camping and tunneling less efficient.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Well I think what Scott is saying here is right and I can kinda prove it.
Since I am a Survivor main with a little bit of Killer Time (80/20) I see the exact same problem in DBD. Normally I get some opinions on my topics which I share and my opinions are not liked by all but by some so I get a tendency better upvotes than downvotes.
The only posts where the downvotes escalate are the posts where one of these two things are said.
First: There is a lot of the "The game is unwinnable as Survivor" propaganda in 1v4 for 2v8 and that the game is not worth the time to being played.
Second: If I ask the simple question. "What do Survivors want to feel that the game is fair."
I get downvoted for these two things into oblivion but I never get an answer which is strange.
If these people who say to me the game is unplayabe really have this point, why can no one answer me the question what they need?
So i just beg you before you downvote me, take your time and write an answer to my question, "what in your opinion do survivors need to feel winable for you"
So, in the interest of genuine conversation, I'm going to take your inquiry at face value and give my honest answer:
what in your opinion do survivors need to feel winable for you
I don't think it's necessarily a "winnable" problem. Killer players tend to focus on the "win", and survivors tend to focus on playing a "well rounded match". This isn't to say that individuals can't, or don't pay both roles, most do.
However, when the survivor role is designed, intentionally, to die more often than escape, the game can't realistically be all about "winning". That will obviously be different for each person, and isn't intended to be "everyone."
Personally, when I play survivor, I want to have a fun match with some hope of escape, at minimum some back and forth with the killer, and a sampling of most things the role offers. I want to be altruistic for my team, do some gens, rescue, heal, and maybe progress the current quest or something.
I can't do that if I get hard tunneled at 5 gens. Which is the meta, unfortunately. It's also been getting worse over the years, and easier as the game has shifted to hitting a 60% (or higher) kill rate for most of the roster.
And despite this being a complaint literally since day 1, more than 9 years now, the community not only does not allow the devs to actually fix it, but we have this narrative that all of it is always petty instead.
There have always been petty people, and they implemented a punishment with dc penalties for that. Doesn't work.
And it didn't work because the larger issue is not because people are petty, it's because they're frustrated with the game, and are either too addicted to leave or don't yet realize they're burned out.
We could punish them harder. Maybe "the beatings will continue until morale improves" will eventually force them to quit.
But we certainly, and clearly, aren't allowed to fix the core problem for many people, which is that they don't get to play the game if found first.
To answer your question directly: what survivors need is what they've always needed in this game: hope. It's the while reason hatch existed in the past. The current game doesn't allow for much hope. You get found first, you *are* dying, and likely the others will as well, so it isn't "for" anything. Hatch is 100% up to the killers choice of "allowing" you a chance to get it.
Game direction has gotten us here, and the devs absolutely not "allowed" to meaningfully address that part.
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@Steakdabait said:
Great future proofing idea for perks but this community unironically whined to bhvr until the awful mechanic of haste/hinder stacking was kept so gg
It's actually worse than that.
The community screamed for months about haste stacking specifically… but only because they wanted MFT+hope gutted.
BHVR listened to that feedback and said they were addressing haste in general and people equally screamed, basically because they didn't want killers to be affected.
But hey, at least both MFT and hope have been nerfed now. #mission accomplished
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026935#Comment_4026935
Then what is it for now then? You will be able to get up after some time because of basekit unbreakable after 120 seconds but then you have option to leave after two downs which in first you have to recover to max. Thats like killer could abandon after he gets flashlight save or pallet save from survivor its same kind of logic like if survivor wiggles from your grasp two times you could abandon. If it wasnt temporary why then its still there when you will get counterplay for slugging into basekit either they should remove it or increase the slug number to like 3 or 4 times instead two which is just one slug into down and free escape in form of abandon which by the way doesnt work correctly in devs stats and data which are key thing they balance the game around kinda funny isnt it.
For the record, I'm not a huge fan of abandon as implemented.
I'm not sure why you are going off, I just didn't see them ever having said it's a temporary measure. Apparently you didn't either, and just decided to invent that part wholesale.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026933#Comment_4026933
So… shoulder the burden basekit?
Kind of. Except without being exposed, screaming, or unhook requirement.
I've also proposed in the past that you should be able to donate your first hook state from anywhere, but limit it by either total % gen progress across the map (not necessarily completed - to prevent 99ing) or simply by time (first 4 minutes you can donate, but lock after that).