AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@CorvidXCVIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014861#Comment_4014861
I don't think that's the point they're making. The point is that the condition will eventually be met where you leave the trial. I wouldn't have used bleeding out as the comparison personally because it's pretty loaded here but...
The game will end in both situations with a high likelihood of you losing, so what's wrong with just hurrying that last bit along in a way that saves some face, so to speak?
The game will end in both situations with a high likelihood of you losing, so what's wrong with just hurrying that last bit along in a way that saves some face
Because the "likelihood of losing" is very different, and in some cases highly subjective.
There have been posts about this before, with people unironically asking for "killer would be able to abandon if a gen is completed before a hook". Or just simply "the killer should be able to dc without penalty at any time for any reason".
There is a massive difference between "you can do nothing, actually zero" and "you can still take action and force PVP interaction, even if chances are low".
This is also pretty much moot, since I'm just relaying the official BHVR stance on this:
the difference in this case, is that survivors can do nothing about the being in dying state, however the killer can do a lot to force survivors out of the match.
Source:
@Reinami said:
I shouldn't have to sit and watch survivors teabag me.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014699#Comment_4014699
to be fair, bleeding survivors also expire
Bleeding out is 4 minutes. During that time you can only crawl, slower than the killer can walk.
EGC is 2 minutes, and during that time the killer can go kick pallets, earn BP, go force survivors out of the match, and, most importantly force errors to secure additional kills.
All of those options are base kit for killer. Survivors are told to "just use perks that work once" to avoid being slugged.
And that doesn't even include things like blood warden, where the win condition relies on survivirs being in the match while the gates are open.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014321#Comment_4014321
Elusive is the only one that needs some more changes, stuff that isn't simple number tweaks, so I'll start there.
Give it the Incapacitated effect as a placeholder. This prevents Item usage.
Remove auto-aim. Seriously, you shouldn't have auto-aim in the first place, but it shouldn't gravitate towards a Survivor who is intangible.
Hook Obscurement:
Keep the hook states counter, update the HUD immediately on unhook, but keep everything else. The HUD should always be accurate, and reward keeping an eye on things, but we don't need a dinner bell to sound and let people know to come back to hook.
Unique Hook Bonus:
20% Total Progress
15% Haste until a chase starts, keep the breaking pallet or damage state restrictions as well.
No changes to the info.
For the "too good for this treatment crowd":
20% Current Progress.
No Haste, No Info.
Seriously, they do not need much help.
Tunneling Penalties:
Survivor dies before the 5th hook; Survivors get a 30% Repair Speed Bonus.
If you do decide to tunnel someone out, gens become uninteractable until the Survivors need to complete one gen. Hefty punishment but not completely taking away hope from either side.
Slugging:
Get rid of Crawl and Recover, revert the speed changes. That's it. I would NOT have put this all in the same PTB.
Thank you, this is exactly what I've been hoping for. I think these are reasonable ideas, with a few notes:
Give it the Incapacitated effect as a placeholder. This prevents Item usage.
Blocking item usage and even pallets is a good idea, but I think full "incapacitated" is too much. The survivor should have a way to choose to do conspicuous actions and not just have the eruption problem of standing at a gen afk until a timer runs out. Just not the ability to "choose instantly while invincible standing at a pallet".
Things like chests, gens, and interacting with killer powers should be possible actions, but cancel the effect. Agree, though, that items or pallets, for example, should be blocked.
Remove auto-aim
This should just be a toggle in settings. Like shadowborn Fov, just let the player decide. I don't play console, so maybe it impacts them more, but iirc you do play console so maybe it's not as necessary as, say, a shooter.
The HUD should always be accurate, and reward keeping an eye on things,
This is an excellent point, and fully agree.
Unique Hook Bonus
No real complaints here in the theory, just that I don't think BHVR is going to make 2 tiers of the effect to implement. They've been hesitant to do "killer specific" core gameplay effects in the past, but they need to eventually make some kind of change that isn't just buffing blight because trapper needs help. Not sure if they will get over that for this feature.
It could also be spaghetti code issues. Like, doing so would cause hooks to spawn instead of exit gates or something.
As an aside, I've been asking for details since the PTB and this is the first time I've seen something other than just "it's abusable" with no explanation or solution besides "pull the plug on everything, don't do it, no no no no no".
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014318#Comment_4014318
I've had conversations with friends about this. The killer role, being a solo power role that is essentially the central focal point of the match around which everything else revolves, attracts a certain sort of person. It has to be a minority. I'm far from the type, and many killer players express a sort of performance anxiety on the forums. I just like horror, and I was a killer-only player for awhile because I did so bad at everything in survivor that I didn't want to be damaging to a team. I preffered being responsible solely for my own outcome. But some of these people have projected themselves onto these killers in kind of a creepy way and any threat to the identity they associate with winning as them is earth shattering.
Yup, I'm similar. I played the game for about two years before I touched killer for the first time, mostly because of the anxiety.
But I enjoy it now mostly because I can at least mostly have some input about how fun the match is for everyone. I generally don't sweat, although if the survivors are going for a more serious game I'll step it up and give it my best.
But I think the biggest thing for me is that I don't get bent out of shape by losing a match. Maybe it's because of all the time I spent dying on survivor, or I just look at it differently: if the match gameplay is fun, I don't really care about the final scoreboard.
That whole "don't mind losing occasionally" is something that varies by person, and everyone gets fatigued by losing streaks, but some people do seem to get set off completely by one game out of dozens of wins.
I think for some people it's ego, some it's, like you said, over committing to the role. There are, thankfully few, but unfortunately more than zero, players who confuse "playing as your favorite emotionless psychopath" with "playing like your favorite emotionless psychopath".
And, still others, who take the power role too far and consider themselves to be in control of the devs also, which is where the "nice game, be a shame if anything happened to it" mentality seems to come from on here.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014292#Comment_4014292
Very untrue.
Simple number tweaks would have fixed the system.
I'm curious what tweaks you have in mind here, can you go into more detail?
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014033#Comment_4014033
I won't pretend that people don't leave winnable games all of the time, but if you develop any game sense with DBD you learn when a match is over and when it's not with only a slight margin of error. I think that's something that's missing from the conversation a lot.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014058#Comment_4014058
The thing is any time those sorts of systems that are commonplace in other games have been implemented into DBD, it's a disaster. DBD has always seemed to do better with systems that don't really appear to be viable in most PVP games. Plus, beyond the problems presented with the genre alone, the game also isn't in a balanced enough state to handle systems like that.
If you want to try them anyway, you have to think of it like this: a Band-Aid can fix a boo-boo, but it can't fix a gash. You need to address the larger issues first before simpler fixes have any impact.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014069#Comment_4014069
I know I get a lot of heat for it, but there really is some psychological component to Killer mains that I don't fully understand. But it does manifest often times as looking like main character syndrome. And I think appealing to that as strongly as BHVR has for the last several years is really aging the game incredibly fast.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014078#Comment_4014078
I believe fun is lacking, so naturally I think most players don't have fun. They want to have fun, but that's not the same thing. As far as most players not quitting early, I have no idea how to answer that because it feels like the opposite argument you were making just a few posts ago.
You can't address behavior, only the tools used. We saw the evidence of that with anti-go next. Those tools can be addressed and they often have. With camping/tunneling/slugging, it's a little different. We did have the tools and now we don't. It's time to address that.
I know I get a lot of heat for it, but there really is some psychological component to Killer mains that I don't fully understand. But it does manifest often times as looking like main character syndrome. And I think appealing to that as strongly as BHVR has for the last several years is really aging the game incredibly fast.
I'm going to disclaimer and say that I fully recognize that this isn't a blanket statement, but it does seem to apply to a small, select (and insanely loud) group. I take that to be what you meant too, but just for anyone else reading, to be clear.
I read it as an ego thing for some people, or possibly narcissism. Some takes on here just don't make sense unless you consider that select individuals begin with the premise that they are "Max MMR" gods at the game, and are entitled to win every match.
If they lose, or even struggle, in even one single match, it can't be that they have to improve... That's impossible, because you can't improve on perfection. The only solution to this is that the game inherently must be unfair.
And, because this is a wound to ego (or in some cases narcissistic injury), it gets expressed as pure emotional response, usually anger and outrage.
Which is also why this group is dead set against anything that isn't a pure killer buff or survivor nerf.
They've deluded themselves into believing that the game is broken already, because the only other option is that they, maybe, possibly, might not be as good at the game as they think they are.
And that's not even something they can consider.
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@BOFH said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014097#Comment_4014097
It took one of the lead devs of DBD getting publicly bullied on a livestream by an instablind flashlight SWF for instablind flashlights to finally get removed after they had been in the game for way too long already.
The best part is, he queued in the public matchmaking queue for a random game, and he did so shortly after saying instablind flashlights weren't a major problem.
Within a month, instablind flashlights were dead and Hag (the killer he played that match) got a few buffs.
During the infamous Chandler Riggs stream, BHVR was very publicly embarrassed by their lackluster security measures to the point that they had a fix pushed out within a week after the stream, but the issue had been in the game for literal years by that point with no action until it made BHVR look bad.
There are at least a few other instances I'm not thinking of right now where other things only got fixed after years of being broken only because an incident publicly embarrassed BHVR to the point they had to take action.
My point is that just because BHVR doesn't think something is a problem doesn't mean it's not a problem.
It just means the problem hasn't resulted in BHVR getting publicly embarrassed yet.
This is a lot of words to say literally nothing.
I know about those instances, and those are specific.
So I'll ask again: what, exactly, are the problems with the anti tunneling/anti slug systems are we looking to fix?
Because so far, the only thing I have seen, and the only things that people can bring up is "don't do it or I'll quit". That level of entitlement isn't something the devs can fix beyond continuing to cater to it. Which is what those people want.
So, what actually happened in PTB matches that we should talk about fixing? Video of it happening would be great.
Because "don't do anything" is all in hearing from detractors. Literally zero constructive anything, and nothing actionable.
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014117#Comment_4014117
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014110#Comment_4014110
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014104#Comment_4014104
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014108#Comment_4014108
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014097#Comment_4014097
As sad as I am to say this, while the forum is meant for discussions, feedback and opinions, all of us are currently just feeding the fight (I gave up trying after seeing like a dozen thread get derailed like this and three get entirely closed).
When reasoning with the mentality that "not enough innocents are being punished to matter, so the punishement system is fine, also most people are lying about being innocents and getting false-flagged and are actually frequent ragequitters." There's really no point to continue trying after several threads.
This thread is about the anti-tunnel system (and how it can be properly implemented next time so it doesn't mess with normal gameplay and create lose-lose situations) and its consequences when it eventually comes back out of the metaphorical oven. What are our thoughts?
What are our thoughts?
My main question about this is what problems are we looking to fix?
I saw an awful lot of panic, and basically zero actual experiences with how it played out on the PTB. Probably because they pulled the plug instantly without actually testing much.
The main things I think need to change would be:
Base kit tenacity is not necessary (moving while recovering, specifically). It punishes legitimate slugging (short term) because they can both move and recover, and for excessive slugging it's going to be long enough that recovering and then moving isn't a problem. It's backwards and unnecessary, but removing that isn't a huge deal either.
Elusive should also include not attackable. It isn't enough to just lose collision, you need to basically be not attackable or it defeats the whole point.
Most other things I saw were on the level of "but plot twist and no mither counters corrupt intervention" where, yeah maybe, but no one actually does this. Specifically, the panic over "but survivors will die to give the others the buff", which is a huge net loss for the survivor team, and no one will actually play this way outside of testing to verify that, yes, this loses you the game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014078#Comment_4014078
Meanwhile, any conversation about ragequitting problems has to devolve into people massively over exaggerating how often Go Next makes false positives.
Where are the threads about ragequitting? Because it kinda feels like 'yes, I derailed the conversation, but now it'd be derailing to go back to the original topic'.
And why isn’t bully squads on the official roadmap?
Because, judging by community feedback, it's not a problem at all.
No one talks about this. It's only ever brought up in answer to survivor complaints. If you want it addressed, bring it up. Open threads about it. Don't keep sitting on it until you can use it as a 'gotcha'.
I'm not going to feed the troll here, but just to also point out:
And why isn’t bully squads on the official roadmap?
It's not on the road map because it's been addressed directly every time.
Boil over buff reverted very quickly when it was a problem (2 weeks).
Base kit light born on locker grab to effectively delete double locker saves.
RPD library was reworked to have a hook, which was then immediately abused by killers, before they finally deleted the upper library entirely.
Infinite locker glitches got kill switched same day and fixed.
Hooks respawn to make sure there are no dead zones, even if a survivor died on hook.
Maps are smaller to mitigate hook dead zones. (Admittedly, current pallet spawns is messing with this, which is actually 2 issues once they fix pallets).
So yeah, there's no road map for "bully squads" because they actually fix it, and quickly if it's actually an issue.
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This is basically just what elusive should be. Or should've been.
I didn't get to test it, but unless you include the "can't be hit by attacks" it doesn't do any good for body blocking to simply lose collision. You can lose collision right now by falling onto the killer and still get hit.
So yeah, agree with that part.
This doesn't solve tunneling though. Killers have already shown that standing at or lurking near the hook for up to 70 seconds isn't enough to deter them from getting you out of the game, so 40s of elusive isn't anywhere near enough.
People don't like it, but the only way to meaningfully deal with tunneling is some kind of consequence for doing it.
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I'm just going to jump in and point out something about the forums meta here.
This thread. Right here. It's exactly the problem with discussing anything about tunneling.
It applies to far, far more, but you can look at the history of posts on this forum, and every single time recently that there's been a thread gaining traction about survivor issues (which is usually tunneling) we get this:
A completely derailed thread from a small handful of extremely loud and insanely biased (to the point of being just rage bait) commenters who take a thread about "when are we getting the postponed changes" into "punish them harder".
Which wouldn't be so frustrating, except this is the exact kind of tactic that gets anti tunneling pulled (effectively cancelled for all we know at this point) on day 2, and also could get "go next" tuned up to punish even more innocent players with penalties.
You simply cannot have a discussion about this problem because a few people just have to do this:
And they'll just keep doing it because it's worked for years.
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@Cassiopeiae said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013868#Comment_4013868
Do you go clear a boss fight in a videogame with empty gear slots? No? It's not an opinion. Anything is better than an empty gear slot, same thing here.
It is absolutely your opinion. Especially when you're going as far as "bring a map", then it's absolutely not about performance.
And yes, if the "boss" has a chance to bring an ability of "the item you brought is a detriment to you. This does nothing if you have an empty slot", then it's probably not always a good idea to go with an item in that case. Especially not an item like a key, map, or vial "just because".
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013868#Comment_4013868
Is this actually a thing? I've never judged anyone for a toolbox. And by the time you get to them they've probably used it already. I feel like most of the tunnels I see are the first unlucky person the killer hooks.
Not sure, though I've seen people on here use any justification to tunnel someone out.
For me, going empty handed is more of a throw back to before the hatch rework, where, since every key looks identical, just bringing a key into the lobby was a giant neon "tunnel me out" sign that you were trying to escape as soon as the hatch was available.
Even with broken key, still same result.
Not that I always went without an item. If I brought an item at all, my go to was a medkit unless I was going for a specific challenge.
I'd say most of the time I went empty handed, but I also used residual manifest and flashbang, which were best used if you go in with nothing.
Haven't played survivor in over a year now though, so I think flashbang stacks with your item iirc.
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@Cassiopeiae said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4013831#Comment_4013831
If that's your logic then bring a map or literally anything that's heavily abundant. Better that than nothing at all. My point is people keep shooting themselves on the foot by leaving their loadout half empty.
I honestly think it's a matter of perspective, and opinion.
You aren't arguing that it's "more efficient" or meta, which would have some basis. You're just arguing your opinion and somehow I'm wrong.
Personally, I prefer to be empty handed to lay low and let the killer decide in the lobby to tunnel one of the people with toolboxes instead.
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@Cassiopeiae said:
There is no reason for anyone here to not bring a simple brown toolbox and use it immediately on a gen at the start of the trial instead of bringing absolutely nothing.
But tactically, you want to use a toolbox on the last gen, when it's the hardest to complete. The map is smaller, the killer has only 3 gens to check (or maybe even a 3-gen) and you need to clutch it.
Why would I bring an item for the sole purpose of using it at the wrong time?
After all, doing the first gens faster is what killers on the forums complain about the most as "gen rushing", so why would I ever want to queue up solo and then send the message that "we're here to sweat" by finishing the first gen (which is likely to be done anyway) extra early? Am I trying to "force" the killer to tunnel here? What's the thought process?
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This is, even now, still the only actual way to counter Franklin/Weave Attunement.
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I wonder if this is a by-product of the pallet changes.. Like, filler tiles can either be hook locations or weak pallets and it's picking pallets too often right now.
Cause that's ridiculous.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012610#Comment_4012610
You cannot tell me with 100% honesty that Crotus Prenn and Suffocation Pit needed more pallets.
Haddonfield, Borgo, Coldwind, sure. Haddonfield still needs a size increase.
But Macmillan and Crotus Prenn should not have a milion pallets.
Yeah, it's like they didn't consider individual realms or even single maps (like they should have) and just turned the dial up across the board.
And we know they have metrics for this kind of thing.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012532#Comment_4012532
There should be consistency. The phase 2 changes should be just as impactful as the AFK crows.
Why not as impactful as, say, anti gen tap?
You know, one mechanic that decisively and completely eliminates what it's targeting and makes it impossible to circumvent in one fell swoop.
Seems like you're cherry picking here.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4012339#Comment_4012339
This is where I think I should be. I used to be super altruistic but then they nerfed my favorite perks (and the playstyle, but it's recovered a bit since then). Then I took to meme builds but the 4k BP per trial wasn't so nice. Then I took to stealthing and playing gen jockey and that got nerfed. So I think I might go back to memeing.
I haven't touched survivor in over a year now, but my "just screwing around" build was blast mine, flash bang, residual manifest, and head on.
Terrible build for anything other than getting bled out, but getting value out of all 3 in one match was actually an interesting challenge sometimes.
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@UndeddJester said:
With how ready and willing so many people were to throw at least 60% of the killer roster in the dumpster with the original proposed changes and simultabeously be completely unwilling to give any time of day to the myriad of very obvious problems it entailed... I'm extremely worried about the return of these changes.
I don't disgree with reducing the power/effectiveness of tunneling/slugging... but shooting m1 killers in the knees and at the same time giving killer side a bunch of effects that only benefitted the A and S tier killers, instead of taking the obvious route of taking a nerf hammer to those A and S tier killers and then buffing killers across the board was madness to me.
The way discussions were going around the issue, I genuinely feel like DBD is on borrowed time if anything even remotely resembling that PTB ever comes back...
myriad of very obvious problems it entailed
I saw no evidence of problems, and only panic, anger, and other emotional responses. People have been "finding problems" with the system since they put the words "anti tunnel" on the road map, and it has literally nothing to do with the actual details, or the system, for most people. Based on the things people say on here, most killer players can't even think of any other way to play, and don't believe they can adapt to the change.
And given that there were only 2 days of actual testing, I don't honestly believe there are as many actual issues as people are trying to say.
People claiming that 25% gen speed will somehow cause survivors to die intentionally are just delusional. Same thing with "but if someone dies in the first minute why can't I kick gens?" Because you've already won the game at that point. That's why.
The one and only thing I wanted to see in testing I never got to, because they pulled the plug too fast... But did those systems, as "punishing" as they were, even matter? I didn't see anyone continue to tunnel to even see if the systems made a difference, because, and here's the real trigger for people: if hard tunneling is still the "best way to play" even despite these changes, then it's likely they actually weren't enough.
shooting m1 killers in the knees and at the same time giving killer side a bunch of effects that only benefitted the A and S tier killers
I hate to break it to you, but addressing tunneling needs to happen first. Because we can't ever seen to have any meaningful discussion about "what about trapper" until tunneling is addressed.
Then we can actually have some discussion of how we can individually buff killers who need it.
Because starting with killer buffs hasn't worked in at least 3 years now. Buffing killers had only led to more tunneling, and we still have the same disparity between blight and trapper. Maps are smaller (trapper buff), pallets are weaker (trapper buff), distortion nerfed and aura reading off the charts (trapper buff), healing nerfed (trapper buff), 7.3.0 patch notes (literally trapper buff).
And the result of all of that and tons, tons more, is that we're still having the same discussion about how trapper isn't as good as blight/nurse and we can't possibly do anything about tunneling. Yet every single one of those buffs directly or indirectly buffs tunneling too.
Tunneling first, then we can finally have the room to talk about how to fix "D tier".
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This is the only game I've ever seen where the person can freely admit they wandered the entire map before finding someone in the open (so, what 90 seconds? 2 minutes?), then takes an undetermined amount of time in first chase, then complains that two things that take 90 seconds (and can be done concurrently) are finished in that time.
And the comments are all just "game balance amirite?"
Lethal pursuer alone fixes this. Maybe don't take 3 minutes to get your first down and examine your own gameplay.
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@JustWhimsical said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011637#Comment_4011637
Weren't people still bodyblocking with it in the PTB lol. I doubt the new status effect was purely to combat bodyblocking and aggressively using perks, because if it was it completely failed to do so.
Body blocking was the only reason they introduced Elusive at all. Otherwise they just would have extended the endurance duration.
The key part of Elusive was the player losing collision during that effect, so the only way this was "abusable" was if the devs somehow completely missed the obvious points that people have made that simply losing collision isn't enough, they have to be unattackable also.
So either, the devs screwed up and didn't think it through whatsoever (and even then the issue is fixable), or elusive completely solves this problem.
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@Zuiphrode said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011619#Comment_4011619
OTR is fine if used for it's intended purpose instead of offensive body blocking.
Then they could've kept the Elusive status. Since that was explicitly for combatting body blocking.
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@adam1233467 said:
Guys, remember, they didnt removed the removal of sratch marks, and they brought back endurance, this perk is gonna be so much better if the killer decides to tunnel you!
Oh good, I just have to hope that the killer proxy camping the hook has his monitor turned off and it'll be just fine.
Countered by "having eyes" isn't really selling it.
The thing that bugs me here is that, somehow, there's still a "compensation" change for an entire mechanic that BHVR pulled completely, with zero ETA on when or if it will be back.
So, after 2 weeks of waiting, it went from "anti tunnel update" to "just kidding we accidentally buffed tunneling", to now "it wasn't an accident, were actually intentionally nerfing your anti tunnel perk".
That's the end result of 9.2. Pretty ######### good job so far.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011344#Comment_4011344
Both of the examples you give are shorter than playing out the rest of the match and re-queuing (1-2 minutes). I suspect if those were actually implemented on first disconnect you would then make the same argument arguing they should be made higher.
You ignore why there aren't immediate punishments for someone's first or second DC - DCs aren't always intentional. There being no way to tell the difference between someone's internet having a momentary issue and someone rage quitting means there needs to be some leniency or else you end up punishing too many people for something that is out of their control.
There being no way to tell the difference between someone's internet having a momentary issue and someone rage quitting means there needs to be some leniency or else you end up punishing too many people for something that is out of their control.
My most memorable one was a couple years ago. Had a game with all 4 survivors up and we had just powered the gates. My Internet decided that was the moment to crap out and I lost connection to everything, including the match.
It was already the first 4-out of the evening after many games, and I was on discord with my duo partner after it came back to make sure the others got out.
But missing a solid win due to something outside of my control was frustrating enough that it sticks in my mind years later. If the game actually dished out a penalty to me for that, on the first "offense", I probably would've just uninstalled.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4011321#Comment_4011321
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the system already is designed to do that. I remember seeing when it went live that players were having trouble stealthing without triggering the system and receiving a punishment.
That was the equally awful "go next" system that they launched at the same time.
Crows punishment was entirely within the match, since it was way, way overtuned at launch and revealing survivors who were playing the game normally.
The punishment was letting the killer know they were there and effectively deleting stealth, which was still not good.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
Hopefully never, they will be a massive decline in gameplay quality and the inevitable compensation / killer design change will make the game so much less enjoyable.
edit: to people downvoting me, do you genuinely want the game to turn into blight (krasue/ghoul moreso) by daylight? or do you just completely lack the ability to understand cause and effect and think they'll actually keep making fun and interactive mid tier (as of today's standard) killers in the dbd with these systems?
I'd like to have actual balance discussions instead of this bullshit "the game will die" every single time.
Zero constructive feedback for how to actually improve on the problem, let alone fix it, while avoiding these self proclaimed "catastrophies".
We can't even have a meaningful discussion because of doom posts like this that just serve to derail useful conversation about it.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010986#Comment_4010986
Why does this mentality of yours, specifically "if you don't like it just quit" literally only apply to survivors?
the very first thing in every single thread is "you can't do this or we'll all leave" and "the game will die when we quit".
Contradicting…
So… maybe this doesn’t applied for survivors only? Killer role just… straightforwardly admit - if game for them unfun and unplayable, they wouldn’t do this at all? So… something actually meaningful? Like, it’s an actual loss of online.People DC, but still playing. Not a threat. At all. You’re doing nothing with this DC, except making game even worse, for your OWN ROLE.
This “quit attitude” exists for killers as well. You literally mentioned in this post yourself. But the point is - if you’ll threat with actual strike and stop playing, devs will actually contribute to something to fix it. If you’ll just DC over and over again it may stay problematic, But this doesn't threaten their direct income or online, so the developers will put the problems on the back burner. Are we even trying to compare a DC of killer and a survivor in game? When in one situation everything basically leads to the end of the game, and in another, you force three people in your role to face... such disgusting consequences for yet another whim?
We've already realized a hundred times that you're not having fun. Don't play at all, or at least play in a way that doesn't stab your own teammates in the back. That's the only thing people are asking for.
This “quit attitude” exists for killers as well
So, I'm talking to specifically this individual here, not generally. I'm aware that this isn't a universal "one size fits all" thing.
Are we even trying to compare a DC of killer and a survivor in game?
I'm not, and if you think that was my point you should read it again. I'm not taking about even dc's specifically, but the reaction to players appearing to be biased and sided.
I'm taking about change and game health. Survivors not enjoying the game are being told, "if you don't like it just quit" and nothing is getting better for them.
The voices saying "punish them if they don't like it" are being heard and punishments are pushed out, even despite the fact that nearly everyone said this is too much when "go next" launched, BHVR only pulled it for like two weeks, then pushed it back out again with minor changes. At least we think with minor changes, since that's how it feels, especially because they didn't put anything in the patch notes about it.
It still falsely flags people, even if not quite as badly. It still determines if the player is "trying" (so, you can play the game wrong, enough to be banned), and it still punishes.
So, for survivors: it's literally "the beatings will continue until morale improves".
Now let's look at the "anti tunnel" and "anti slug" ptb: pulled immediately, because people burned down the forums in a fit. And you'll be hard pressed to find a thread that didn't say something to the effect of "this will kill the game" or "we'll all leave".
Where's that system? Pulled. Indefinitely. No "just tough it out", no "we'll sneak it back in with some tweaks". Nope.
Specifically they literally said "abusable and overly punishing" and pulled it. So where is the "if you don't like it just quit"? That's my question.
Don't play at all, or at least play in a way that doesn't stab your own teammates in the back. That's the only thing people are asking for.
But it's not the only thing people are asking for. Some people are actively torpedoing anything, even discussions, about fixing core issues of the game.
People like me have been patiently and reasonably asking for a fix to actual problems in the game. You literally cannot have a discussion about fixing tunneling in this forum in a constructive way without the thread getting derailed by the loudest and most biased people.
Threads trying to discuss these issues get derailed. The most recent were several hundred posts long and one got off track because someone was intentionally forcing a conversation about "so you think sitting at a gen is hard? Lul", and another about "no seriously, tenacity by itself is abusable and needs nerfing". Come on.
And we aren't getting constructive feedback, either. Zero, and I mean zero attempts to fix literally any of the core reasons people might dc. At least in regards to the anti tunnel changes. People said "no we don't want it at all" and aren't even trying to fix it beyond "just keep the buffs part".
No, it can't be that players don't get to play the game if they're unlucky enough to be the first person downed. We don't want to talk about that, because that might mean changing something. It's gotta be that everyone is petty and needs punished. And if the punishments don't work, then add more punishments.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves".
Because we have this mentality, the point of my post, which is: if you don't like it, then quit.
But only for survivors. And that's #########.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010949#Comment_4010949
Who are you even shaking your fist at here? Where's this secret kabal of sinister serial quitters? And how do you know people's reasons? Has everyone who's ever left your matches filled out a survey for you?
Just say it. Say you're okay with flawed systems that hurt survivors but not ones that hurt killers. If it's okay to have a system that sometimes punishes the wrong people then pushing the anti-tunnel to live and correcting it at some obscure furure date shouldn't have been a problem for you. It must be worth it to punish those few innocents in order to get the real culprits, as that's been your whole argument.
Just as a note, because I want bhvr specifically to see this as often as possible and it's completely relevant:
Their responses to 9.0 go next, and what would have been 9.2 anti tunnel have been so wildly different and inconsistent, that even the devs are on board with this "punish survivors hard, but we have a different standard for killers".
I'm to a point where I'm not convinced that the person you're taking to isn't an employee at BHVR Interactive on a personal account, because, at minimum, this kind of wildly, and blatantly biased take appears to be the only thing they actually listen to long term.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010961#Comment_4010961
Didn't think it was controversial to say that theres a lot of people unhappy with the game
It's not. There are many people unhappy about many things in this game. Thankfully most of them deal with that rationally instead of taking it out on innocent players who have nothing to do with their problems. What is controversial is disconnecting at the drop of a hat and ruining the match for four other players because "I'm unhappy with the game so everyone else should be too." That's what an increasingly vocal minority have been doing lately and I can't abide it.
That kind of behaviour is inappropriate regardless of how slighted they feel at Survivors/Killers/the devs/whoever. There's no justificaiton for it and defending it is just enabling it.
Thankfully most of them deal with that rationally instead of taking it out on innocent players who have nothing to do with their problems
I haven't read anything so wrong so fast in a while.
The response to phase 2 was absolutely anything but this. I've seen only panic and rage at anything that might actually address any of the reasons behind why people might dc, and the literal meta of "you don't get to play a match".
I've also seen zero actual evidence of issues, not even anecdotal, because it was tested for less than 48 hours and people had already made up their minds 6 months ago when they saw the words "anti tunnel" and "anti slug" in the road map.
Why does this mentality of yours, specifically "if you don't like it just quit" literally only apply to survivors?
Because whenever, and I mean even at the slightest hint, there's a conversation about fixing core issues where killers might have to give for the sake of balance or even game health, the very first thing in every single thread is "you can't do this or we'll all leave" and "the game will die when we quit". So where's this cavalier "just quit" attitude then?
There are some people who can have meaningful conversations, but the loudest voices, the ones that BHVR actually listens to, are anything but "rational" most of the time.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4010622#Comment_4010622
We have pro-ragequitters on these forums, that are trying to use the Go Next stories as proof that Go Next should be reverted.
Calling people truthtellers, because of an ulterior motive of wanting to get rid of Go Next by any means necessary, is the biggest problem.
I'm not pro rage quitting but I hate the "go next" system they introduced.
There are certainly ways to mitigate people disconnecting, but this is absolutely a bad solution and it's also demonstrably not working either. (Imo, it solves none of the reasons that people disconnect, and attempts to determine intent from gameplay automatically).
My point, and what others are trying to tell you, is that this system will falsely flag players for actions their opponents are taking (tunneling is the killers decision).
So if the opponent decides if someone gets a dc penalty, it's abusable. That should never be possible, ever, when we're taking about bans in any form.
It's also a time out, which is an insanely harsh penalty.
So the real question for me is:
Make up your mind BHVR: if it's "abusable and overly punishing" are we forcing it down people's throats and not even putting it in patch notes, or are we pulling it indefinitely? Because there's a pretty massive disconnect there.
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Disconnecting is annoying and people shouldn't do it.
For me, this is just solid proof that the "go next" update was listening to the wrong people. Just punish them is the wrong solution.
They haven't addressed the main reason why people disconnect, which is that the match is generally over if you're the first person found.
They finally, finally after 9 years agreed to look at tunneling, and pulled it immediately. That seems a pretty clear message that they don't care to actually fix anything about the issue if the loudest voices complain (and they absolutely did).
I'm not even saying that the changes were perfect, they weren't, but as of right now there's no ETA, no communication, and it's sounds like they're going back to the drawing board. So, maybe at least another year before we get only the part of the list the loud people wanted (Killer buffs that demonstrably won't fix anything).
Only 1 match included tunneling (blight), there was no slugging, no camping
Well, you can't say that because the match changes after a disconnect. The match changes instantly at that moment.
Some killers will focus a player because the bot is basically useless, and some players will go easier on the remaining survivors because a disconnect sucks and an early dc already basically guarantees the killer a win.
If people are disconnecting on first down, which is almost all of these... It's because they're expecting to be tunneled out. They are conditioned by the game and the meta "strategy" of tunneling that "well, bad luck you got found first, but maybe you get to play the next match instead".
But instead of being able to fix that, we have to discuss how to punish people further.
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all problems with prove thyself solved
If you still believe that prove thyself is a problem, then I can guarantee that prove thyself is not your issue.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Why is it that whenever survivors get slightly strong perks or mechanics, they never make it past the PTB
Wanna talk about MFT?
Yeah, let's talk about MFT.
While I'll admit this "got past the PTB" like the original person you quoted mentioned, the history and surrounding information about MFT is really not a good look.
It launched, and was around for about 6 months before getting gutted. During those 6 months, players screamed at the devs to change it. The most common complaints were:
A) "effectively free, permanent haste breaks the game"
B) "haste stacking is too strong, MFT+hope is broken".
So the devs listened, and nerfed the perk completely out of the meta. And since that patch, both of those main reasons have been proven to be complete lies and manipulation:
Haste was given to SM, trickster got a base kit 5%, and clown haste was buffed. And these were more than 3% haste values, defended by most of the same people. So 3% haste demonstrably doesn't "break the game".
Haste stacking was given it's own update to revamp and remove stacking across the board. All because the devs listened to feedback that haste stacking was "broken". Then, once they announced that it was universally being removed, people screamed again and asked them to keep it. So, apparently hate stacking doesn't break the game either.
So, essentially, a loud part of the community didn't like MFT, made up reasons to get it nerfed, was successful in getting the devs to listen, and then they screamed again at the devs for actually listened to what they said (haste is broken, stacking is broken), instead of listening to what they meant (please nerf MFT, I'll say anything to get it deleted).
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008535#Comment_4008535
Somethimes people tend to use this but survivor has his first game and can be caught off guard but in general its someone who is not that great at chase. Balancing ghis is impossible because finding survivors with same skill is very hard and not all of them can use shack the same in the match when palett is used so there will be always someone weaker who is worh to chase and prioritize compare ti other survivorsin the match. There are almost always chase me bro survivors which are better to be ignored.
Balancing ghis is impossible because finding survivors with same skill is very hard and not all of them can use shack the same in the match when palett is used so there will be always someone weaker who is worh to chase
Completely agree. Matchmaking isn't easy, nor is it going to be perfect.
And just to clarify, I'm not trying to say that every survivor will always be exactly the same skill level. That's unrealistic.
There will typically be players who are better in chase, better on certain maps, better against certain killers, or possibly just better equipped with perk loadouts simply due to RNG.
My point isn't that there is no weak link, it's that the killer has zero way to determine who that might be until they've actually tested all 4 survivors to see their skill level.
And if the killer is actually testing this, and has hooked everyone once, they aren't tunneling.
And for killers who just chase the first person they find to death, they aren't doing it "because they found the weak link", that's entirely a rationalization after the fact.
I usually bring this up because all roads lead to tunneling with this mindset: if the first chase was fast, then it's "wow, I found a weak survivor and can tunnel the weak link for the win", yet if the first chase isn't fast, then it's "I've invested to much time on this person (gens flew by), so I have to tunnel to recover the match and catch up".
Tunneling is never the wrong answer, and I find that to be problematic. At minimum, it's not a "strategy" at that point, since strategy implies that you would change tactics based on factors like how your opponent played, map, match RNG. If none of those factors play a role in any way, then this just becomes the "only play style you need"...
Which, coincidentally, is how many people argue they feel they need to (or feel forced to) play.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
Threat of anti tunnel is not something killers should have to worry about either.
Best designed anti tunnel is the kind of anti tunnel that makes tunnel out not run into the killer in the first place.
not run into the killer in the first place
They deleted distortion and introduced "anti hiding" measures.
They specifically and deliberately want survivors to be easy for the killer to find.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008510#Comment_4008510
Killer will target always the weakling from survivor team and its logical its easy down and preasure. Getting better or having longer chase or being positioned near strong loops is one of few ways how to get killers attention from you.
Now if you play mediocre killer or lower and sometimes even with strong killer you can have hard time because you get matched against players you shouldnt get and its not because you made your mmr higher as some people spread here (mmr will give you people in your bracket and theycan have far more experience and higher mmr number but you are in same bracket so people with 1k hours can face 8+ k hours players if there are many people in matchmaking ques so they dont have to wait same que times as killer in 2v8 for game),sometimes not tunneling in current state is punished because you dont have those base buffs for each unique hook same as survivors dont have better antitunnel which is bad for both sides one doesnt get rewarded for playing more longer game without tunneling orther doesnt get solid protection against those which want to play shorter game with higher chance.
Killer will target always the weakling from survivor team and its logical its easy down and preasure.
I hear this a lot, and it sounds good in the surface.
But the question is: unless the killer has engaged with all 4 survivors in the match, how do they know this is the weak link?
Because if there is no strong link, and it doesn't matter which of the 4 survivors is chosen randomly first, then that sounds more like a balance issue than a "smart strategy". (And in this case, matchmaking is included in the balance problems).
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008393#Comment_4008393
You're confusing disagreement with dishonesty.
It'd be one thing if people were honestly engaging with my points, but when people make flatly ridiculous arguments like "Doing gens is just as difficult as anything Killer does", that is a red flag that they are not arguing in good faith.
And there's no room for good faith discussion with someone who isn't arguing in good faith. It takes two to tango. I can't have a reasonable discussion if I'm not talking to a reasonable person. And I can't beat someone with kindness if they don't value kindness.
So all that's left is to either leave the discussion entirely or call them out for bad behavior by accurately describing what they're doing.
when people make flatly ridiculous arguments like "Doing gens is just as difficult as anything Killer does",
You are the only one saying this.
The entire discussion started with the debate of whether "killer or survivor has the easier gameplay", to which you shifted the goal post to "doing gens takes no skill", and then completely ignored like 7 people who tried various ways to correct that "doing gens is not the only thing survivors must be able to do to win".
As much as this is overused in this forum, you are committing a textbook straw man with this.
You are the one engaging dishonestly.
You are ignoring the points that people are making.
You are seemingly having a conversation with yourself half the time, responding to either the wrong people, or just inventing discussion points because you feel like it.
Nearly every single comment of yours is either completely ignoring that others have spoken, or simply projecting.
Even attempting to give the benefit of the doubt that you honestly, truly believe the words you write, you aren't actually engaging in discussion. You're just having a conversation with yourself, and everyone else is just spectating.
ETA: since you down voted this within seconds of posting, you're just waiting for any kind of engagement. I made room on my ignore list for you, and recommend others do similarly. Good luck in your future endeavors.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4008294#Comment_4008294
See, that's what I mean by doing a turnaround with an extremely false equivalence.
I don't know if you know this, but when you try to kill Survivors, generally speaking, they will run away and try to stop you. You have to track them, chase them, and outplay them to accomplish your objective. And even if you just sit in front of them after you've won a singular chase against them, you can't just facecamp them; the anti-camp meter will fill and they'll be able to unhook themselves.
And even if you catch them again (Which, need I remind you, is still considerably more difficult than standing in front of a gen and holding a button) and camp them again AND nobody comes to do altruism plays, by the time they die on hook, all the gens will be done and you'll lose.
There, I humored your bad-faith remark. Prepare your next bad-faith argument.
Survivors, generally speaking, they will run away and try to stop you.
But that's not included in "sitting on a gen for 90 seconds".
So which is it? Are survivors just holding m1 and oblivious to their surroundings (as you've claimed this entire thread), or is there more to survivor gameplay, like reacting to the killer (as everyone else is trying to tell you)?
Because you can't have it both ways, and suddenly, when the killer needs to kill, survivors have more than just "hold m1 on a gen" in order to win.
Interesting.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007703#Comment_4007703
"I've got a fantastic gameplan: I'm not going to do any gens, and I'm just going to run at the killer instead!"
I believe this statement actually starts with the phrase "hold my beer".
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A proxy camping killer is just going to follow you to a locker and grab while you open it.
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I mean, they announced anti tunneling and anti slugging, then pulled those changes due to "feedback".
The update they pushed live kept the changes to OTR and tenacity despite the offset adjustments to camping and tunneling being postponed indefinitely.
So the live version of "anti tunnel" and "anti slug" became "surprise, we buffed tunneling and slugging instead".
On top of that, these are issues people have been begging for changes for 9 years. So, finally BHVR acknowledges"we hear you" only to immediately, immediately turn that completely around because the loudest voices screamed at them and drowned out actual concerns... Yet again.
The game didn't even continue with status quo with this live update, these problems got actively worse instead.
And their responses make that feel intentional instead of an oversight. They haven't said they're "reverting these two perks", they said they'll "make further adjustments", and that's not the same thing.
BHVR screwed over the players this patch was supposed to help out, and we can't even get them to say it wasn't on purpose.
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@BbQz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007365#Comment_4007365
Well.. there you have it? The thing is slugging is the most powerful move in the game. And the only way to secure a win with 4 single hooks. With the right build as the killer it's all you really need to do to win.
I don't know who you're talking to, because this isn't anything I say or imply.
People who slug for valid reasons (lurking flashlights, DS, etc) aren't doing so because of the time sink, and that isn't op's point either.
Killers who slug excessively for the win or to grief will not change their behavior with this change either.
It might be an interesting change to consider, but it won't impact any reason that people slug.
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They had instant, remote hooking as a feature of 2v8 and people still slugged.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
OTR should just get some other anti-tunnel effect, that doesn’t involve endurance.
OTR should be a defensive only perk.
What exactly effect would qualify as "defensive only" to you?
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007106#Comment_4007106
Do you think we'd see the same result if they just removed the 4% and left it at that? I think the additional layer they added on was overkill myself.
Honestly probably would've been roughly the same result as what we have now. Although I'll freely admit I never expected any of these changes to completely stop giving up.
I don't see any real added value to the harsher DC system, other than the people who desperately wanted to "punish them" being heard. It also clearly hasn't worked.
But the underlying issues still haven't been addressed, and that's the only thing that will have a significant impact long term.
Unless or until BHVR meaningfully addresses the fact that the core, meta gameplay is "you don't get to play", then I feel like it's incredibly irresponsible of them to push punishments onto the players for simply recognizing and acknowledging that the game is already decided in the first 2 or so minutes.
It's ultimately BHVR's responsibility to provide a fun and engaging gaming experience for all 5 players.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007073#Comment_4007073
Who would have thought punishing players instead of addressing the issues surrounding the problem wouldn't solve the issue. Oh yeah, only anyone who saw it plain as day on the forums, many of us in this thread even, and other sites who were collectively screaming it to the high heavens at them. The part about silently re-enabling the system without any mention of fixes is really what puts salt in the wound though.
Yep.
And apparently that's all we're getting for the foreseeable future. Since the anti tunnel and anti slug updates would've actually addressed some of the core problems causing this, but are on pause indefinitely.
For me, the real salt in the wound is that the "go next" system punishes players for how their opponent plays (abuse case). It's a punishment system by design. Yet the official reason they pulled anti tunnel is because the system was "too punishing and abusable". Like, FFS, be consistent.
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@TerraEsram said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4007015#Comment_4007015
That's what I said after that, got a bug and can't respond to two message in one
Oh, gotcha.
Yeah the forum bugs right now are annoying.
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@Nazzzak said:
They already removed survivors being able to let go on hook, I don't know why this suspicious behaviour thing was even implemented. The anti-go next was all that was needed.
This is the "anti go next" system at work though. The DC penalty rework was also part of this.
They did remove the 4%, but that was a tiny part of it. The real "go next" system is a convoluted behind the scenes system that does exactly what op describes: it attempts to evaluate if a survivor is "trying" and if they aren't "trying hard enough" they get a warning, then increasing dc penalties for what the system sees as "giving up".
And if a survivor gets hard tunneled out of the game fast enough (by the killers discretion), they will get this warning, even if they are trying to play.
The system is awful, and overly punishing people who did nothing wrong, yet they pushed it out initially in 9.0 with no testing, pulled it, and snuck it back in with no warning later.
And it also hasn't solved the issue of people giving up either.