AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@TerraEsram said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006438#Comment_4006438
They adress the OTR problem in two patch, in the 9.2.2, so not the next one, technically
Right, but they're dancing around the wording that would mean "we're putting it back to where it was before the patch".
Not that that isn't still possible, but that's not what they said either. So, the expectation they're setting is that the version we get in 9.2.2 could still be different than before 9.2.0.
Which, that, combined with the fact that OTR and tenacity were not changed back after anti tunnel was pulled, would mean that buffing tunneling in 9.2.0 was both a conscious and deliberate choice the devs made.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006314#Comment_4006314
No… The "TOP killrate" was 60% on last official stats release, not the average, as in the BEST killer has 60%. As in every other kill is below that, many even far below that.
And the average survival rate was 45%.
Dont lie about the stats we can literally look up. So in comparison, the Nightlight stats trends we see are pretty much right on the nose.
Dont lie about the stats we can literally look up.
Roughly 40% average escape rate.
Top kill rates around 70%.
I have receipts.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006273#Comment_4006273
The current kill rate isn’t even that low for killers playing against 4-man SWF at high MMR, where you have to sweat your a** off and play only the highest tier killers to get more than 1-2 kills. So you would only be happy if the overall average game for average killers is even more difficult than that?
I have no doubt that this is what you want, but players who actually play both sides understand what a disaster that would be and that’s why the game is balanced around an overall average 60% kill rate.Despite what people seem to believe, you can have a 60% kill rate and still adjust the gameplay.
It's how the match plays out is the problem, where the gameplay loop for survivors is essentially either: you get found first and don't get to play, or you stare at a progress bar until the killer is ready to win the match.
Unfortunately, there are insanely loud voices that prevail, and prevent any actual fun gameplay from being possible, all in the name of the holy kill rate.
The conversation, for the loudest people, is "I don't care if you're gameplay sucks, I need to win all the time". And equally unfortunately, that is enough to completely stop any actual changes from happening, apparently.
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@Zuiphrode said:
It is not the obligation of the killer to make sure surv players have fun.
It is, however BHVR's obligation to make sure all 5 players in the match have fun.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4006273#Comment_4006273
Look at the stats on Nightlight. Killers are on average around 50% and survivors are also on average around 50%… the game is as balanced as it will ever be. People have to realize the average killer is nowhere near the level of their favorite 10k hour streamer…
Nightlight stats have been way, way off since they added stats players can see directly, at least. Last I knew, nightlight was still counting abandons as escapes also.
Official kill rates are about 60%, escape rates about 40% on average. And some killers are averaging almost 70%. That's not balanced.
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This is absolutely miserable for killers. Cause Q times are alrdy bad enough on their own
The anti tunneling update is 9 years overdue, and it got pulled within 2 days of PTB. And the primary reason for that was people flooding the boards saying that exactly this: "killers will quit if this goes live, good luck with your queue times".
We tried "just punish them" with the "go next" mechanic. (A mechanic, I want to add, that "is overly punishing and abusable") And that didn't work.
They need to understand that the player fatigue people are seeing is at least partially due to game balance being too far out of whack.
They need to do something about the issue of "being found first means you don't get to play the game", because that is literally the game balance telling players "good luck next".
And, for the record, "do something" isn't just buffing tunneling by nerfing OTR and doing literally nothing else.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
New killer isn't overpowered, just completely unfit for the dbd where killers are bottlenecked by their potential ability to tunnel.
Turns out when BHVR don't have to worry about balancing the killer around the threat of tunnelling, the killer ends up being uninteractive miserable piece of slop.
Look, i know you're spamming this in hopes of forming a narrative that tunneling is necessary, but you're wrong.
Hard tunneling at 5 gens isn't necessary, people refuse to try anything else because this is an insanely simple and highly effective strategy that is difficult to counter base kit. It needs to be addressed.
The balance of the killer has nothing to do with this mechanic.
Kaneki was launched in a basically similar state, as were many of the recent killers. It's BHVR's mo, and business model at this point, is to push out incredibly powerful new killer releases to push sales, then adjust that character for balance after the next chapter or so.
It's not compensation for anything, they just want the new killers to be oppressive so people buy it. She was doing just fine on ptb, then after pulling the tunneling changes, they announced a laundry list of buffs for this character that would go live.
Those buffs make sense if they want to entice people to buy the new, overpowered killer. It doesn't make sense in your narrative because they already had scrapped the "supposed reason" for making her strong.
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Well, the one thing we haven't tried yet, and seem incapable of doing, is meaningfully addressing camping and tunneling at 5 gens.
The game is over for the first person found first, in the majority of cases, since hard tunneling is still meta, and that's the one thing that we haven't done anything to fix yet.
They made it worse this patch, which is infuriating. Nerfing OTR and pulling back everything else is kind of a big middle finger to people who are frustrated by this. That doesn't justify dc'ing, but apparently people need to quit for BHVR to notice or care (or, at least, threaten to quit).
But, clearly "punish them" with the "go next" mechanic and reworked dc penalty wasn't the right solution.
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They screwed up when they "fixed" ruin two years ago and undid the wrong part.
It should be 200%, but deactivate when a survivor dies.
The fact that they left the regression and removed the anti tunnel just blows my mind.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005420#Comment_4005420
I dunno what you are on about. I’m talking about people weaponizing old OTR by using it to bodyblock the killer.
There’s no “count to 10” in that scenario. It’s “if you don’t hear grunts of pain, then immediately hit the survivor instead of waiting”
So, just so everyone is clear on your stance in this conversation:
The perk is a major issue, but also completely trivial for the killer to both play around and disable.
Do you even read what the ai writes for you, or just press paste and post?
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Having the announced "anti tunnel update" not just get pulled, but then also pushing out the OTR nerf without anything else to fill that vacuum isn't exactly a massive selling point for the "fun, casual player".
"Surprise, we buffed tunneling" is a challenge to competitive players, and a major turnoff to casual players.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005256#Comment_4005256
I would call that a false equivalent.
Gens show their progress by cylinder movement with only a glance (at least the last time I played), survivor on the other hand don't.
Make survivor more worn out/injured optically/whatever after the first or second hook and it would've been fine for your comparison but their isn't anything like that.
And the chance of two or more survivor using the same skin is pretty high. Even higher for swf going for some kind of shenanigans.
I'm comparing gen progress to the new hook slashes. If I only get to see gen progress some of the time (when someone is actively working on it) and then I'm expected to remember what that progress was. The system doesn't even tell me which gen or where it is, just that "someone has a gen at 40%, somewhere".
Which is more similar to how hooks used to work: the UI actively shows which survivor in the list of 4 is hooked, that player order never changes. So even if all 4 are sable, you knew, trivially, and by the default ui, that the second one is the one hooked. And that information went away on unhook (similar to gen progress disappearing when the survivor leaves the gen).
The same UI also shows you who you're in chase with, so you already had all of this information available to you, before this patch.
Again, I don't think either was a problem, or that gen UI needs a change, but hey, apparently I'm wrong: this is far too complicated and maybe it should be changed.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005256#Comment_4005256
its more of a QoL for players to know who they should go for if they need to turn the game around OR they try to 12 hook… wich before was near impossible if the match was filled with 4 sables because now way in hell that a killer is going to remember what hookstate sable #2 was on when they have to keep in mind gen progress, second chance perks survivors have resources etc
Sure, I suppose. You aren't going against 4 sable squads often but ok.
The silver lining here is that putting it directly in front of people might actually mean that players finally understand how StB actually works.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4005242#Comment_4005242
if we remove the hookstate count being visible then we should also remove the basekit hud but people use the muh soloQ as an excuse for that now dont they? Id say just keep both and stop whining about killers getting a QoL once in awhile
So, HUD isn't permanently showing gen progress, like hook states are. At best, the HUD reminds you that the objective is progressing and only while it's progressing. Exactly like actively putting someone on hook does.
So it was equivalent, now it's not.
I'm also not sure why my take is "it's game knowledge that anyone can do" is controversial, yet the majority seem to want "just make it available, I can't handle it otherwise" is seen as the reasonable take on this. I guarantee people can, 9 years of evidence on this one.
It's moot, really. I don't have strong feeling about it, I just think it's not necessary. Clearly the devs want to do this, so whatever. I just don't understand why remembering is that hard, and it's not that impactful either.
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I've never seen this as necessary. Keeping track of 4 people, when you are required to not only be physically present for every hook, but actively invested in the chase (or even the events) leading up to that hook is truly not that hard.
If you're in the camp of "now I won't accidentally tunnel", then you're already not playing with a play style that will get complained about anyway.
I just don't see the necessity of adding information that is already available. There's a ton of information that players are expected to remember as part of gameplay.
For example, with the HUD, survivors can see gen progress while someone is working on it. Should they just add a permanent UI element that shows that information even when people aren't working on them? After all, why should people have to remember?
Why hide exit gates after a few seconds? Why not reveal pallets I've been within 8m of at any point?
If that sounds silly or even ridiculous to you, then why is the other ok? At what point is this something players should just keep track of?
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what exactly is this update supposed to be saying?
Pretty sure the clear message is if you don't like the changes, then threatening to leave, blowing up the forums, and review bombing the game are the only effective ways to get the devs to listen to you.
Because asking politely "hey, can this go next mechanic not punish people for being tunneled" or "maybe we shouldn't nerf OTR until the other anti tunnel features land", while reasonable feedback, are completely ignored.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I can understand your frustration here. Now, you mention not being interested in the version that was on the PTB. Is there something specific that you would find useful to help with tunneling and slugging?
Having the "move while recovering" base kit is too much. That alone impacts the situational slugging, but does very little for excessive slugging. Survivors should have to choose to move or recover in the short term, and excessively long slugging situations you have plenty of time to recover while stationary, then move later. "Base kit tenacity" impacts the wrong kinds of slugging, and can just be removed.
I didn't get to test it, but from reading, my understanding is that Elusive disables collision, but the survivor can still be hit by the killer (if it doesn't work this way, why was base kit BT/endurance even still a thing). Anti body block can only work if the Elusive survivor can't be targeted by attacks either, which would effectively make the unhooked survivor a ghost until they are healed or perform a conspicuous action.
From a positive standpoint, you managed to touch basically every box that needed to happen here: killers rewarded for hooking, incentive to spread hooks, penalties for hard tunneling, removing body blocking.
These systems, with the tweaks above, are not abusable in any way. Anything less is likely to not be effective at changing player behavior, and honestly, the fact that people would have to change tactics is the primary reason you got flooded with negativity.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4004282#Comment_4004282
Yup… but this is exactly the huuuge mistake I keep seeing on survivor side. It shouldn’t happen. If someone goes down at/around the first gens, the entire first chase gets devalued. Even worse: paletts are gone.. for.. nothing.
and any killer who can count ans has a feling for time.. knows there’s nothing far along anywhere else. proxy camping and hard tunneling to secure another fast down in that same area is the most logical play. and a good early is soo important :( Survivors are strongest early.. and we just threw our whole early game. No killer with is going to give thatpressure up now. At least not the killers I face. And h.. i think, that’s fair. The mistake was on our team, and now we pay for it. The killer will defend that zone—why wouldn’t he? Math says those are probably the farthest gens, and he’s already got a hook there.
I see this go wrong in soloQ all the time, even when people have good micro and are solid in chase. That’s why in soloQ or duo I try to take first chase (or my duo mate does) specifically to avoid this scenario. Even if the randoms can run, I just see survivors make this mistake too often. One bad early and the match slips, because proxy camp into hard tunnel becomes super tempting for the killer.
big oouf huge mistake i always see Don’t give the killer an early down at the hot gen cluster. If it happens, expect this damn hardcore proxy + tunnel and .. most people doesnt do this : rotate out— (sometimes they just start greeed after the unhook the gens in this arera, or.. heal under hook, they hover the nearly gens, sometimes injured... they dont Take the chase away from the cluster when possible,.. its so important to spread progress at this pont, but they often feed the killer the same zone twice.
this is a huuge misplay.. but.. do we need this base handholdings for surv to counter this?? id k.. i think.. soloq needs a way more info to avoid stuff a swf calls out… but.. idk.. the moment in soloq i get the first chase, we have most of the time a good match… and this is not because i´´m rthe best chaser in the world.. i just try to avoid situatons like this. (i have good headphones tbh, i hear gens from very far away.. not everyone does. so.. y.. : soloq needs a bit more info there… swf call out this stuff anyways)
and any killer who can count ans has a feling for time.. knows there’s nothing far along anywhere else. proxy camping and hard tunneling to secure another fast down in that same area is the most logical play.
This is why hard tunneling early is a major problem. There is no situation where you can't justify it.
You bring up first chase, and specifically mention that first chase is important for the killer, and you're right. Survivors are strongest early game, and the killer starts the match with zero pressure.
But that's always true.
So let's look at first chase
As you mentioned, if first chase is fast, then "proxy camping and tunneling" mean that there's almost no gen progress, the survivors likely can't get enough done to recover the early elimination, and the choice is to camp and tunnel.
But, if the first chase isn't fast, and takes too long, then 3 other survivors have zero pressure, and nothing else to do other than gens, and "gens fly". In this case, the killer needs a comeback mechanic to gain ground on the match and recover... So the answer here is to proxy camp and tunnel the first survivor out.
And there's the problem: all roads lead to proxy camping and tunneling the first hook. No matter what the survivors do here, the killer is going to proxy camp and tunnel as what they consider is the "best play".
And, for "killers who can't count or have a feeling for time", they will finish a chase quickly at 5 gens, and not be able to do the mental math and time clock, and assume that 4 gens are "nearly complete", leading to the same "proxy camp and tunnel" conclusion.
The problem here is that tunneling early shouldn't be a game winning option immediately, right out the gate. There should be some consideration of "well that chase was easy, but instead of forcing this player out immediately, let's have an actual match with gameplay". These are comeback mechanics that are always available, all the time, and that is the problem.
And the only way that consideration happens is if there's a downside to tunneling at 5 gens, and a consideration that doesn't matter as much at 1-2 gens.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003564#Comment_4003564
"I came up with the question myself, I found the answer myself." Perhaps it's worth creating own discussion for such cases.
I've been following your comments for a while now and I've noticed that you're a big fan of talking to yourself, because as soon as your opponent doesn't indulge your tribalism, it's very difficult for you to engage in a discussion with real arguments, and we reach the stage of "git gud, you're just too lazy to adapt." Without even realizing it, this phrase can backfire and apply to your own position.
You're the one who wrote an essay, then couldn't answer the first question posed to you.
I gave you at least 3 chances. You just don't like the correct answer in this case.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003558#Comment_4003558
U ignored other stuff as well
— I admitted stealth aspect should be tuned and aura read have to be balanced on specific killers
— I never said tunnelling is special, u just put it out of nowhere and put this question as rhetorical
— I said stealth were affecting badly not killer, but teammates also. So it were affecting badly your own side. It’s not just “4 people in a trial”. It’s other 3 where u who u were supposed to help
— U completely ignored comment about interaction issue
I won’t respond on any of your comment anymore, just because it seems u have a great joy of selective word extraction, twisting it to suit your own purposes, because apparently responding directly to the post is too difficult, and we need to come up with additional questions to derail the discussion into meaningless tribalism. If you enjoy such dialogues, go ahead. I'm not going to invest in it.
I'll answer my own question then:
Tunneling is special because killers refuse to adapt. You can't even imagine playing the game any other way, and feel entitled to nearly everything.
Because even when pressed on one simple question, you can't stand up to your own words.
Hiding used to be the marketing for DbD. It is so marketed in some places as a "horror hide and seek", and yet, we have aura read that can't be reasonably countered, distortion nerfed, and they had no problem pushing live (against feedback) the crows that deleted it entirely.
So when it comes to tunneling, suddenly this is holy ground, where you can't help but quite an entire essay defending it, and yet it has the same pitfalls: negatively impacts the match for 4 people when used excessively, but apparently we aren't allowed to touch it.
This entire post from you is just further propaganda to remind the devs that they aren't allowed to touch tunneling. It isn't about "incentives", because they tried that too. It's just that some people don't want it to change.
That's the only reason tunneling is different, that's the answer to my question: tunneling is special because you want it to be. You just can't be honest about that.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003558#Comment_4003558
Crows were fixed as soon as people started to complain.
Are we using as argument stuff that were admitted as problematic and turned off?I would like to see direct answer on my post rather then a rhetorical question.
Why is tunneling special?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003550#Comment_4003550
Because hiding was an avoid way of any interactivity on a trial where two sides that are supposed to interact. Clear answer here. And because it was as well the way to keep players hostage. Or selfish plays where people were using it for waiting whole team to die for getting simple hatch. Hiding were able to harm both teammates and killer. That’s why it was highlighted as issue.
U still can hide in the trial, but u can’t do it forever, by the way. Want to see examples? Watch KnightLight solo q streak rn. As well as when survivor provides anti tunnel perks, killer provides anti stealth. Listen me up. I’m distortion user. Still, despite its nerf. Maybe it would be nice to have +1 token from the start, but now already it’s pretty balanced.
I’m up to reworking aura perks, actually. I’m even up to ban aura read on specific killers like nurse. But again - your comment isn’t about direct response on my post. Is another whataboutism and tribalism contribution. So, I will wait until u’ll give actual response rather than forcing other people to answer on your questions only. Stealth wasn’t mentioned in this post. U just pushed it here in attempt of “but what about this”, and that’s all. Try better next timeSo, just to be clear, doing so situationally is a "strategy" and good, effective gameplay. Yet if someone is doing that strategy "excessively", which impacts not just the match, but the overall gameplay for 4 other players, we need to address that immediately.
I think I have that right. Especially since the live version of crows was grossly overtuned and deleted stealth completely, and now we just have significantly nerfed stealth.
So, how, exactly, is tunneling special?
Because: doing so situationally is a "strategy" and good, effective gameplay. Yet if someone is doing that strategy "excessively", which impacts not just the match, but the overall gameplay for 4 other players, we need to address that immediately.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003543#Comment_4003543
I would like to see direct answer on my post rather then a rhetorical question about the specialty of something
Why we should discourage to play effective
See above. Hiding was effective play.
So why is tunneling special?
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003323#Comment_4003323
Yours also just speculation. We all have no data. Its funny that you dismiss the other side with those remarks, but at the same time think you know the absolute truth.
I can only speak from my experience, but its a mix, for example yesterday.
DC 1: Not really a DC, it was just stop playing and running to the killer immediately bc it was a ghoul and maybe haddonfield.
DC 2: Couldnt get a down, dced after three gens.
DC 3: Singularity on Nostromos. Tunneled one out and then tried to slug. Long game, when the last gen popped, he dced.
DC 4: Oni on Lerys after the last gen popped. Had a decent start, but couldnt get his power/ a hit in the last 3min, bc everyone predropped pallets.
DC 5: Singularity on swamp. Survivor dced immediately.
So here's the thing, we know that the past year has had a massive increase in players dropping games. The "go next epidemic" started about last October. That's a fact.
The devs also posted several stats staying that they have successfully increased kill rates to hit their 60% target overall, that SWF and solo q on average are escaping at about 41%, and that there are some individual killers with a nearly 70% lil rate overall. Those are facts.
It's also a fact that those kill rates were lower before, based on data, and the escape rates were higher, and the individual killer lethality went up also.
The devs are on record as stating that these changes to increase kill rates overall were deliberate, intentional goals.
Those are the facts.
So either, you have your position: that people suddenly became more petty over time and that explains a tremendous increase in giving up. For which there is no evidence whatsoever that this change would happen.
Or, all of the game balance changes started hitting a breaking point, where all of these changes finally got to a point where players frustrations grew, their fun diminished, and for survivors, are objectively losing more. That's what the facts say.
Your narrative doesn't hold water.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003138#Comment_4003138
Competitive pvp games have instant feed back and allowing people to leave on a whim lets them make an instant irrational action on that feedback, ruining the game for everyone else. What you said holds minor merit, what I said always holds true.
I still hold that DbD is a party game. You can't honestly tell me that they created a 60% kill rate "because it felt right" and disregarded balance to do that, and then call it competitive.
In most games, including things like Overwatch or Apex, the quick play, or casual mode, allows people to just drop out at any time, for no penalty.
At minimum, no game should ever punish a player out of game for what their opponent does. Which is what DbD does right now, by giving a "you didn't try hard enough" DC penalty for the killer deciding to hard tunnel someone out.
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Why is tunneling special?
Hiding was easy, and also survivors "just surviving". It got nerfed from several directions, with distortion getting deleted, aura read is so prevalent and varied that it has no reasonable counter, and yet they still went the extra mile to punish players for doing it.
All I see from this is that actually, meaningfully addressing tunneling would require killers to adapt and try something different. That is apparently unconscionable for most people, and they will, apparently, say or do anything to avoid that at all costs.
And this includes not only writing a novel about it, but disregarding stats, and trying to divert to literally anything else other than the actual issue.
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Kill rate, admittedly, is not the only measure of player skill. All else being equal (map, killer choice, latency, etc) if two different killer players went up against the exact same 4 man squad, the killer who got 12 unique hooks would be generally considered more skilled than the killer who got 4, even if they both got a 4k.
However, kills are the only primary measure that matters generally. Because as soon as you change this metric to anything else, it leads to very bizarre and abusable scenarios.
Let's take hooks. If you just make the metric "how many hooks does the killer get on average", an immediate consequence is that (some) people will excessively slug. The killer can still eliminate all 4 survivors, or even just get a couple kills this way, and definitively win the match this way, yet the "metric" will show a loss.
The devs have been very specific in the past that they don't want to introduce an official measurement that would allow a survivor to die (definitely a loss), while the killer somehow also records a loss (no hooks). Nor should they introduce this, either.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003138#Comment_4003138
i have had people DC over a map they dont like, a friend was killed so they wanted to join them in the next match, killer they dont like, someone else cleansed a totem they wanted. people use the abandon to skip 5 seconds of hook animation for god sake. people will do petty things if they are allowed to do so regardless of the health of the game. best thing to do is tell people, this is the game, play or dont its your choice but if you decide to play then play it. Everyone knows the flaws the game has, if people are not happy with it then just dont play.
@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003133#Comment_4003133
Maybe, just maaaayyyyybe, because your "larger" group will never be happy?
Because it contains everything from the joe-schmoe that didn't get the map/killer/teammates/chase time/.... they wanted up to people that have legitimate problems and there is no way to differentiate between them but they all chant the same "make the gameplay not suck" mantra.
I readily admit that petty people exist.
But just because some people are, doesn't mean that's why everyone is doing it. You have nothing but speculation for the larger picture as to why people have wanted to quit out. Claiming that everyone is petty is, at best, an oversimplification, and , at worst, just trying to dismiss any actual issues that could be improved upon. (Hint: most of the time it's the second one)
Just like some people will slug to bleedout for no other reason than a power trip or spite, but that doesn't mean that everyone slugging is doing it for those reasons.
And any time people ask to have the "unfun" parts of the game actually addressed, they get dismissed or condescended… just like these responses.
Maybe I should just start telling people who didn't like the PTB that
best thing to do is tell people, this is the game, play or dont its your choice but if you decide to play then play it. Everyone knows the flaws the game has, if people are not happy with it then just dont play.
but that seems counter productive to actually making positive change.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003263#Comment_4003263
and during this time of slowly adjusting it so it becomes healthy which could take weeks, months or even years…bhvr loses a huge chunk of player base from killers quitting the game. It makes sense to retain the playerbase instead of killing the game. even now i dont see survivors saying they are quitting in mass, the odd few maybe but nowhere near as many as the killers were going to. survivors complain but they still play.
i dont see survivors saying they are quitting in mass
Survivors players are largely resigned to feeling ignored. They don't generally come out and threaten to leave, or announce it, because they doesn't change anything for survivors. Survivors just stop playing quietly.
Killers do this all the time, because it works. This ptb is evidence that being loud and threatening to leave works for them.
bhvr loses a huge chunk of player base from killers quitting the game.
Any time in the past 3 years that the game has changed, survivors are told in condescending tones to "git gud" and just "adapt".
Then, when killers might have to actually consider making a change in their gameplay, they scream that they can't adapt.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003278#Comment_4003278
That's as valid a theory as anyone saying the data/experiences/videos from those two days was so abysmally off putting that scrapping it was the best course of action.
I guess we'll never know unless they explicitly say.
I mean, we have evidence of people spamming most Internet feedback locations. Dozens of brand new accounts flooding the boards.
We have no data.
So you have the actual evidence of people crying, up against speculation of having sufficient data to draw any conclusion (and the further speculation of what that data said).
It was not the data. Period.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003274#Comment_4003274
I thought this patch had Ghoul and Clown changes…are they no longer coming to live?
Maybe, I kinda lost track.
The point is that when the devs are looking at data, they take months to collect enough of a sample size to make sure it's being effective. Even if the change is next patch, it's been months for those two characters. Same thing with SM, over a year each time (and so far)
They absolutely didn't look at "the data" for two days worth of a limited (PC only) ptb and make a decision based on matches played.
The only numbers that mattered in this case were the nearly endless supply of brand new accounts with less than 10 posts each screaming at them.
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They announced they were pulling the feature indefinitely after 2 days.
They're still "waiting for results to assess ghoul and clown".
It was 100% the crying.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003133#Comment_4003133
That would make since if people didn't give up over nothing, at the start of the game, due to their own mistakes. There's a difference between bled out and instantly going next on a whim. I've had far too many people get hooked for the first time at 2 or 3 gens remaining with 4 hooks total on my team let go. It has to be punished, no amount of "fixing the game" will prevent this.
I've said this before and I will continue to repeat it:
People have always had pretty reasons for doing dumb things. The "go next epidemic" is not because people have become more petty. It's a product of gameplay changes over time, and it's a general game health indicator.
When it got really bad, the devs listened to people like you, who said they should just punish and fix nothing. That's how we got launch crows being way overtuned and go next. Which, btw, go next will currently punish survivors for the killer tunneling hard.
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@GuardianoftheCrystal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003125#Comment_4003125
OK that is really stupid indeed, like ######### is BHVR on to think that is a good decision?
They listened to the loud minority screaming "punish them" instead of the much larger group asking "can you make the gameplay not suck so that people naturally want to play it out?"
The jury is still out as to whether or not the second group will ever actually see those changes.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4003034#Comment_4003034
That is exactly my point regarding tunneling and slugging. the game is built with that play style in mind. think twins. some killers are designed to tunnel and slug. But the response is always "its not fun" or "if you have to rely on tunneling then you should learn to play properly". That point, i respond with if you need coms to win then maybe learn to play the game properly isntead of using apps not built onto the game? Like you said, remove coms and people will stop playing just like many killers would if tunneling is removed. The difference is tunneling is available for all killers and players and uses only in game mechanics. coms is only available to people in swf and used 3rd party apps. Removing tunneling would mean an overhaul of the game thats why the ptb was delayed. simple number tweaks and slight adjustments wouldnt cut it.
There really is no difference between cheating and coms in my book. both require outside sources, both provide an advantage over the opposition, both cant be 100% stopped. im aware you avoid solo, it shows in your comments but it doesnt change the fact that there is an issue regarding the double standards that survivors have the means and its acceptable to use 3rd party apps to gain an advantage.
the game is built with that play style in mind.
The game at it's inception was a horror themed hide and seek game. They even marketed it as such.
And yet, here we are: 9 years later where killers have too many aura reading capabilities to reasonably counter play them all, and an "anti hiding" mechanic.
Live service games change, and players adapt or move on.
Regarding "SWF" though, since coordination is so overpowered, then what restrictions do you purpose to put on killers who play in pre mades in 2v8?
Because I can guarantee you defaulted to "no, that's not necessary" in your head and just about every objection you could leverage is why we shouldn't be punishing people for playing with friends.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002642#Comment_4002642
Killrate ~60% is a thermostat, not proof killers are "OP". EC was just an example.
Last 2 years killers ate: anti-facecamp basekit, hard 3-gen cap, UW gutted, STBFL −2 tokens on any Obsession health state, DMS = 1 gen only.
“Survivors get nothing” is storytime, not fact — EC was one example (of many - and not a judgment on its meta viability). to bust that “we get nothing, killers get everything” narrative.And no, I’m not ranking or rating anything — just facts, because that narrative is absurd and crazy wild.
So, first of all, do you just use AI to generate your posts? Insane over use of em-dashes, bullet points like you got a good deal wholesale, and bolding everything for no reason.
Secondly, I never said op. You're right, it's a thermostat, and it went from 50% to 60% over those same 3 years you're crying about. And yet you seem to be also claiming that it went down at the same time.
Which means that for all of those changes, some of which are genuinely laughable, the overall balance of the game was decidedly, objectively more in the killers favor. That's exactly what that thermostat means.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002614#Comment_4002614
Killer nerfs the last 2 years:
late 2023: anti-facecamping landed. if you park under hook, a bar fills and the hooked survivor can bail, so hard camping got way worse. skull merchant lost the turtle-gen cheese (active zones gone, drones don’t lock gens the same anymore).
a bit after that: trickster got louder and slower in effect — terror radius bumped from 24→32m, needs 8 knives to injure instead of 6, decay doesn’t help you as much. stealth/ttk definitely worse.
early 2024: 3-gen cap showed up — each gen only gets 8 regression events, so pure “kick & hold” stall is nerfed. save the best for last is weaker: 4% per token (was 5%), and you drop 2 tokens whenever the obsession loses a health state in any way, not just a basic hit. blight lost several top add-ons (blighted crow/rat less rush speed; adrenaline vial + alchemist’s ring reworked/toned down).
spring 2024: ultimate weapon got smacked — no more scream, just aura read, duration halved (30→15s) and a fatter cooldown (up to 80/70/60). way less free info/interrupts.
summer 2024: blight and billy both moved to a 40m terror radius (harder to sneak or proxy). xenomorph tail charge slowed from 0.2→0.3s, so the poke is less instant.
summer 2025: finishing mori only works if at least two survivors are still up — no more “last guy = free mori.” haste perks trimmed: unbound 10%→7% (lasts longer but net weaker) and machine learning 10% → 8%
later 2025: pig’s john’s medical file crouch speed bonus is 10%→5% (base pig got love elsewhere, but the add-on itself is a nerf).
and lookin at ehe perks:
Deadlock — shorter block now: 15/20/25s instead of 20/25/30, so less free stall.
Grim Embrace — early locks are weaker (6/8/10s instead of 8/10/12) and it only triggers after you leave the anti-camp zone at the hook.
Pop Goes the Weasel — kick regression down (current progeess.)
Pain Resonance — regression is 10/15/20% instead of 15/20/25%.
Dead Man’s Switch (rework) — only blocks one gen now and can’t retrigger while it’s active, so no more multi-gen lock.
… meanwhile surv buffs the last 2 years:
late 2023: anti-facecamping went live. camp under hook and a bar fills so the hooked player can bail with Endurance — way more agency, especially in soloq. skull merchant’s gen-turtle nonsense got gutted as part of the same wave.
early 2024: 3-gen stall got capped — each gen only eats a limited number of hard regress events, so pure “kick & hold” is way weaker and endgames feel less doomed on bad spawns.
mid/late 2024 perk glow-up: teamwork perks lost their cooldowns and got “linger,” Corrective Action upgrades teammates’ misses to Greats, Inner Focus shows way more info with no range limit, Blood Rush got simplified (focus on that fast Exhaustion recovery after unhook), Quick Gambit works from anywhere + shows teammate auras while you’re chased (with a CD), Lucky Star lingers long enough to matter, and Poised even pings Killer aura when you start a gen. Cleaner, stronger, easier to trigger overall.
also 2024 mini-buffs: Blast Mine/Wiretap/Flashbang trigger sooner, Diversion/Deception/Dance With Me have shorter CDs, and the “newer” toys like Mirrored Illusion & Chemical Trap ask for way less gen progress to activate.more frequent value for deception/utility builds.
system/QoL bumps around then: survivor spawns got standardized (closer together, same floor when possible), “go-next” griefing started getting flagged/penalized, surrender became possible in truly unwinnable states, and AFK crows got stricter so extreme hiding stalls less. Fewer throwy lobbies, less time-waste.
mid 2025 perk pass: Botany dropped the med-kit efficiency penalty (finally), Champion of Light & Light-Footed got shorter CDs, Desperate Measures got fatter numbers, Exultation refunds a lot more item juice on pallet stuns, Counterforce zooms through totems and marks the far one longer, and Empathic Connection went basically map-wide (plus a tidy heal bonus). Big usability jump for team sustain/info.
Empathic Connection got buffed hard: injured teammates basically see your aura map-wide now, plus a small heal boost.
Also a bunch of perk touch-ups: Any Means Necessary, Appraisal, Better Together (Situational Awareness), Built to Last, Déjà Vu, Detective’s Hunch, Potential Energy, Still Sight — all cleaner and give value more often. Streetwise got reworked to play nicer with items. Not OP, just way more usable.
not to forget the release of Shoulder and other strong perks
Funny how those kill rates went up during that time and sit pretty solidly at 60%+ at the end of all those changes.
Also
Empathic Connection got buffed hard
Really. That's your big "gotcha" for survivor side. Seriously?
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@XDgamer018 said:
mostly because oh i dont know therre might be 4 survivors and a single killer??? keep in my 60% KILLrate means abt 2k/3k every other match. Wich means you should tie as much as you win
That's not what it means, because the "draw" of a 2k is the least common option.
Most games are either a 4k or 0k, with 4k being the most common.
60% kill rate means you're close to "winning" twice as often as you lose as killer. If you 4k, 4k, 0k, you have killed 8 of 12 survivors, which is 66%. Some killers average almost 70% kill rates.
I've not seen a PVP game that intentionally makes it where killer can win more than twice as often as the survivors they face, by design, and call it "balance".
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002337#Comment_4002337
and they can get 50% escape rate….
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QORSCWKDKBCJ/screenshot-2025-09-16-200138.png
soloq, awful team mates, gen build.
escape rate and kill rate might no equate to "fun" but as i have pointed out the escape rate being 40% isnt a defence for having fun or not it is a defence for the people saying it cant be countered….it can and has been countered as shown in the escape rate.
fun is subjective and people might not think being tunneled or slugged is fun just like they think being on hook or doing gens isnt fun. these are aspects of the survivor role. fun or not, its part of the game we choose to play.
can killers win v survivors that are better than them because they used cheese tactics? possibly, thats another discussion. can survivors win against killers better than them? possibly. i mean i can sit on gens and not get into chase and if other team members loop the killer long enough i can escape even if the killer would down me in 5 seconds if they chased me. or i could not do gens at all and escape via hatch. the point is both sides can "win" without showing skill to beat a better player.
"If you play perfectly you can break even" isn't a huge point in favor of this being a good thing.
And while I agree that statistics didn't really capture (subjective) "fun", if you have a have where winning constantly sucks, then you're probably having even less of a great time of the system is designed for you to lose.
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@runningguy said:
to all those that complain about tunneling and slugging… do you have escape rates that reflect it being an issue? if it is as common and can cant be countered as what people say, this would reflect in your own escape rate. Bare in mind the devs aim for 40% escape rate.
People with 80%+ kill rates complain about gen rushing.
Are you really going to try and claim that because the devs are hitting their arbitrary statistics goals on average that the game is somehow perfect for everyone?
C'mon now.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4002225#Comment_4002225
There is no inconsistencies. That's the same definition of gen rush, I am using for years. If gens fly by, while chases take ages, the balance is tilted towards the survivor. 4 years ago, it was at my personal experience peak. That's why I stopped playing. I will see, if it improved consistently.
There's a gigantic flaw in your definition that you aren't accounting for, either accidentally or deliberately:
I can play perkless trapper and turn my monitor off after I queue up for a game. You know what's going to happen that match?
It's exactly:
gens fly by, while chases take ages,
If killer skill issue also gives you the same result, then it seems that classifying all of this as "gen rushing", and directly stating that is a survivor issue, is demonstrably way off the mark.
Which, to be honest, is what most claims of "gen rushing" actually are: killers who also on 4 slowdown perks, blindly wander the map, take 60+ seconds to find someone, then inefficiently chase while kicking every pallet, looping incorrectly, not zoning, and not managing their power, bloodlust, or even the may resources correctly.
Then scream "gen rush" when all of that results in getting their first down 3 minutes into a match and two gens are done by survivors who have DS, OTR, Lithe, Unbreakable, with medkits.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001986#Comment_4001986
No. Gen ruah is the missmatch between the time it needs to get gens done and the time it takes do get kills. Gen rush is not only about repair perks and tools. Every 2nd chance perk, that prolongs chases or give you rescue, like DS, are part of gen rush.
So, I'm getting whiplash from your inconsistencies.
Because within the span of just this one thread, you're claiming here that "gen rushing" is literally anything that helps get gens done (despite that not being what it's ever meant).
And yet, when it comes to "face camping" you in this same thread want to hold tightly to the strictest definition from 7 years ago.
I've never seen bias so strong that it actually interferes with coherence before.
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Look, I know that complaining early, panicking at the merest hint of detail, then melting down the forums once the test went live actually worked, so people will continue to do it...
But just stop with the pre complaining before they say literally anything about upcoming patches.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001951#Comment_4001951
Than call it something else. "Shifting the definition" is like moving the goal post.
"We want A removed."
"Ok, we removed A."
"We want A removed."
"We already removed A."
"No, A has changed, so we want it removed, again."
Camping while standing in the person on hook's face is pretty self explanatory.
I've always called "standing at the hook watching someone die" a "giant waste of the killer's time", but that hasn't stuck.
Semantics is a pretty terrible argument. Especially since you're just going with "if I go back 7 years, I can define the problem out of existence and ignore any current or relevant actions". It's, at minimum, tone deaf, and feels like a disingenuous attempt to derail the conversation.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001809#Comment_4001809Facecamping was when killer could block the unhook. Their hitbox blocked it. They could go afk and still no unhook possible. That was removed.
Strange then, that many years later they added a literal "Anti FACE Camp" mechanic. That people have been very, very specific since it's inception that it is designed specifically and only to combat face camping, and literally no other purpose.
I won't deny that the definition of "face" camping has shifted over the years, from what you describe by denying the only single unhook spot, to simply standing nose to nose with the survivor (or hitting on hook). But you can still hit people on hook for the full duration and their only option is to jump off hook into getting immediately hit right now, on live.
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@Wolf65 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001544#Comment_4001544
That's not an "abuse". It is using the literal mechanic. Don't forget, the hatch is already an extra chance for the last survivor to escape , even when the team already Fd up. It's a mercy mechanic.
It's not really a chance to escape if the entire mechanic is entirely within the killers control.
It might as well be an option in the killer setting menu for "would you like to spawn hatch" that is set to "never" by default.
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@fussy said:
It would brake the game same way StB does. Cancelling progress points of opposite side is dangerous idea.
Except that's not what StB does.
It would be like if the killer could move one finished generator to another with zero progress in the map, exactly once, with no total loss or gain of gen progress, and then had two major downsides to contend with for the price of doing so.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001163#Comment_4001163
Same as survivors forcing bodyblocks after unhook with ds abusing something that isnt meant to be for.
They put in a ptb that removed both, since you're going there.
I saw literally zero complaints about removing body blocking.
But they pulled the entire ptb test... early... because people melted down over the tunneling part.
So maybe, these aren't actually equivalent.
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@stikyard said:
I think blocking the hook notifications for Killer's per the PTB is a good idea and would at least force the Killer to actually camp the hook and give up pressure if they want the hook trade.
camp the hook and give up pressure if they want the hook trade.
Except the people who hard camp the hook are likely also going to not acknowledge that they are simply allowing survivors to do whatever they want while they do nothing.
Most of these killers have zero reflection or analysis of their own gameplay.
So when this does happen, and it happens right now, on live, people largely don't see it as "giving up pressure", they see it as the survivors fault (gen rushing/toxic), or the devs fault (gens are too fast, slowdown needs to be buffed). Most players who play like this need 500 second gens and gen kick meta levels of slowdown and they still won't be happy until they win 100% of their games as 4k at 5 gens.
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This is impressive that you have this much recorded.
Make sure you also have a post with these on the bug report forums, since they can look into fixes using your video context to reproduce them.