AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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There are some decent YouTube guides for how to loop. I actually recommend choosing a guide for each role.
Survivor loops can give insights to sight lines or check spots, and some guaranteed rotations in some fixed tile areas.
Killer looping guides can generally tell you the "correct" way to run the tile to help zone or deny fast vaults for medium or slow vaults.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000389#Comment_4000389
Or you dont need a counter for literally everything at all times, shocking i know.
Sure, but then if you don't bring even one of these, you get posts like the OP where it's "laziness", "refusing to adapt", and a "skill issue".
This original post highlights exactly why meaningful anti tunnel measures are years overdue.
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@crogers271 said:
Makes zero sense to have the killer punished for an unspoken ruleBecause the unspoken rule is becoming a spoken rule.
BHVR has, hopefully, realized how much tunneling ruins the game and will address it.
The BMing at the gates is an unrelated issue. This is about fixing something that has nothing to do with BM, but is a flaw in the game design.
The BMing at the gates is an unrelated issue
I'm also going to add that most, if not all complaints about exit gates follow one of two trends: either
A) whataboutism complaining (like this one), where, in this case "tunneling can't be addressed unless they also fix exit gates". Generally with no proposals for how to do that, and ignoring that the two issues are unrelated in any way.
B) people proposing "solutions" that have zero accounting for context, situation, and are essentially just "punish survivors". I know the term "free kill" is overused in many contexts, but I have genuinely seen conversations where people are demanding that "crouching in the exit gates should block the gates for 30 seconds" or even "survivors have so many seconds to leave before the gates block". Completely disregarding begin cases like "waiting at the exit gate to make sure everyone else is safe".
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@Madmillennial said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999768#Comment_3999768
This. Its obviously an issue. But how to change it without punishment for the killer is the hard part. For health reasons theres needs to be balance so its a win win on both sides. We're heading in the right direction but I agree that those changes were a bit to harsh.
Im glad its being looked at tho. This is good news
But how to change it without punishment for the killer is the hard part
You can't. The penalty for tunneling is the only thing that will ever make this work, and there must be a downside for hard tunneling someone out.
The devs have tried for 3 years to do this now and it doesn't. Ever. Work.
Nearly every patch since 6.1 had been a cycle of:
- Killers "claim" that "they only tunnel because of X existing.
- BHVR addresses X.
- Goal post shifts and now Y is "the reason killers tunnel.
This has happened so often that you can already see the patch notes being written by the loudest voices complaining. Here are just a few examples, off the top of my head:
Dead hard, gen speeds, circle of healing, prove thyself, BNP, medkits, dead hard again, MFT, maps (specifically garden, eyrie, corn maps/cowshed, haddonfield, and more), "chases too long" (loops replaced with dead zones, pallets were weakened across the board, bloodlust buffs), and my personal favorite "I can't find anyone" resulting in distortion being deleted.
And any time there wasn't a specific target, people blamed gen speeds.
The only reason the anti tunneling changes were even slightly going to be effective is the "disabling regression and blocking" feature, which is also the main reason people were losing their minds.
There has to be a downside, and it has to be an effective, and noticeable difference, or the system won't work at all.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456486/i-had-a-grade-taken-away-from-me
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000075#Comment_4000075
To be completely fair though, both of these scenarios literally involved the person ragequitting.
As in, you can give feedback that the game should expand the Abandon function to these scenarios, but both of these people literally ragequit, and Go Next correctly identified that they ragequit.
If one person rage quit, it shouldn't ever penalize the entire team.
It's really frustrating to see the dichotomy with some systems. On one hand, a system that's abusable by your opponent and is overly punishing gets snuck into not just one but two different live patches with no adjustments, based on feedback or otherwise.
And on the other hand, they pulled the plug before the PTB had even run it's course for supposedly the exact same reasons.
Pretty good job so far.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Why do killers always get what they want when 4x more survivors are needed to sustain the game?
I think you fail to understand who is needed more when game already has decent player count.
What has bigger effect, if 1 killer stop playing, or if 1 survivor stop playing?This is always true, no matter what happens with anything in the game, including game balance.
The immediate and direct consequence of this thought process is that the devs should always unconditionally give killers whatever they want, since they will continue to be the 1 in the 1v4.
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I came up with my own counter about a year and a half ago that is far easier: I simply don't play survivor anymore.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999162#Comment_3999162
Scott Jund already proved before its not common at all. Something like 2/50 games involved actual tunnelling, iirc, and thats at his high MMR where its far more likely to be needed in the first place. Anyone claiming they are consistently getting tunneled and slugged excessively has massive negativity bias, or is trying to forge a narrative.
We all know survivor constantly claim "tunneling" for every single thing under the sun.
I dont even remember the last time i saw any unjustified of either in my games.
I call BS on this.
Because, if tunneling was actually rare, then we should be able to implement the changes from the PTB as written, and have nearly zero impact for the downsides (again, because tunneling is rare).
And everyone gets a huge boost to other play styles because almost no one is tunneling.
Yet that's completely counter to the community meltdown that forced them to stop the ptb early and shut down the changes indefinitely.
So, either Scott is right and the community had a meltdown over nothing, or Scott is wrong and tunneling is way, way more common than his limited test shows. (Hint: it's the second one)
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@Hex_Llama said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997398#Comment_3997398
I mean, I guess you can accuse them of whatever you want, but I don't think the inconsistency is really about supporting players who prefer one character over another — I think it's just that BHVR is not super consistent about anything as their normal way of doing business. There are times when they communicate really well, and times when they communicate really poorly. There are times when they're super careful and take things slowly and there are times when they rush something out when it's clearly not done. I'd like to praise them when they're slow and careful and communicating well.
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm saying that, in general, being consistent is how you avoid the appearance of bias.
My actual opinion is that BHVR seems to "listen to feedback" by the loudest voices. Which makes it feel like the game direction is sometimes chosen by the very loud minority of people who care about no one other than themselves.
There doesn't appear to be a clear, or consistent direction or game philosophy. I didn't think I've ever once seen anyone officially come out and say anything to the effect of "this does/doesn't align with the game vision or game design". Anything goes as long as the holy, and arbitrary, 60% kill rate is maintained.
Although I'm not sure that's better.
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This is increasingly difficult to do, especially as someone who has been around since the days of the "your fun is not my responsibility" forums meta.
There is a massive component to many of the discussions here where people lack any kind of empathy for anyone who isn't them. This isn't even necessarily even just "the other side" but also for players who either aren't as skilled, or more skilled, depending on context.
I think asking "why" is a valid question. Especially when BHVR is inconsistent with listening to feedback, or who they listen to, or whether they consider the abusable scenarios ahead of time.
This community largely has the perception that complaining loudly, early, and as often as possible is the way to get BHVR to "listen to feedback", and when they don't listen it just feels like you're watching the Devs be be manipulated.
We need to stop being blind to one side's issues and actually take into account all the pain points, what is broken or abusable, and find the best workaround if we want to see good changes, since BHVR clearly looks at overall complaints to make their decisions these days.
To put a fine point on it, and recent: they are taking this tactic with 9.2 ptb, absolutely. It's also the healthier way to approach things.
They specifically didn't do this in 9.0, with afk crows making it live in an unacceptable state despite and in contradiction to feedback.
The "go next" system in that same update, went live without testing, was pulled briefly, then pushed back in (quietly, with no patch notes) with no changes. Currently, on live, it punishes false positives for being hard tunneled. It's abusable, and people do.
Seemingly, the only difference here is volume. Which only reinforces the "loudest voices choose the game direction" idea even further. That is, objectively, a bad thing for the game at the bare minimum.
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@Hex_Llama said:
I was happy to see that this is delayed. We want BHVR to test stuff and respond to feedback about it, so it's good to hear that they're being thoughtful about this.
This is good in theory.
In practice, you also need to be consistent with responses. Because being inconsistent about who you listen to, and when, and how you respond, is a quick way to be accused of bias.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
The Antitunnel and anti slug were extremely overtuned and often punished pople who were not tunneling
Go next currently does this on live.
Why do they only selectively care about false positives?
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456077/killers-crying-about-changes-once-again
Its very hard to balance dbd without micro balancing (making changes based on MMR.) For the most part though, the entire purpose of these changes is to make tunneling impossible by any means, and also making it so you don't really have to help unhooked teammates. I've said this alot now and many others feel the same, but thats simply just catering to bad survivor players. Survivor is in a pretty good position as of lately.
This just solidifies that people didn't understand or actually test these changes before "giving feedback".
Because the devs already specifically stated that it has to be hooking events, and "last hooked survivor" remaining on hook already didn't count if the killer didn't actively put them on death hook.
The whole point of this entire mechanic is to prevent a hopeless 3v1 scenario, and you have to invent a fantasy where survivors are now forcing a 3v1 somehow? It's still a massive downside to be down a teammate. No one is realistically going to play like that and still win.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997276#Comment_3997276
They've stated before more than once, that they don't just look at a single site only, but across multiple. So Reddit, Instagram, Twitter, the official forums, Youtube, Steam discussions, etc.
That doesn't change the fact that they ignored feedback.
And, for the record, the crows and go next are literally mechanics that "dictate what counts as playing the game", "punish the player for playing 'incorrectly'", and "have abuse situations that were (and are) not considered".
Me saying it's "inconsistent" is putting it very mildly. Whether they intended to or not, that's the bare minimum perception the community can take from these two, back to back, patch reactions.
Trying to say otherwise is denying reality at this point.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997267#Comment_3997267
I'd say they're consistent. The consistency just has a wee bit of a slant in one direction.
Apparently, they listen to feedback volume when it's a hundred alt accounts with single digit lifetime posts spamming ai slop all over every forum here.
I thought all of that was against forum rules, and it's clearly stated in the forum rules, but apparently, that's what it takes to get them to change the patch notes.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996967#Comment_3996967
Yes, but that's not what i replied to.
People genuinely believed that bhvr would go through with these changes as they were, regardless of people's feedback.
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
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Anti slug and abandon should both exist, but I'm not sure they need to add the extra abandon option if you've been slugged a couple times. That seems unnecessary and far too broadly defined imo.
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The devs have answered both of these:
- It's 20% of current.
- Unhook Protection only lasts 10s over the gates are powered (this includes endurance, haste, etc)
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
Check out this clip from Otz posted on Reddit. He is punished for not letting a survivor finish the last generator. By the new 'anti-tunnel' rules he should have just ignored a survivor on a generator.
What he did here was NOT tunneling by ay definition of the word, but now apparently it is.
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1n7qxtv/i_dont_think_he_likes_the_new_changes/He doesn't have to "let the person finish the gen", there are options: he can slug if it's really that critical, or just hook. There's one gen left, so up until maybe a week ago when this was announced this was everyone telling us "you have to secure a kill because the game is over".
Given that he went with the hooking option and then won the game, this isn't really making your case that it's a problem. You seem upset that he didn't "win harder" here.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
my solution to tunneling would be to just give up on this TCM idea of hooks and embrace My Little Oni/F13 and just give you one life, able to be instantly morid. that's an immediate end to tunneling right there.
I'm not against the idea of the new changes, it just seems kinda convoluted.
my solution to tunneling would be to just give up on this TCM idea of hooks and embrace My Little Oni/F13 and just give you one life, able to be instantly morid. that's an immediate end to tunneling right there.
I never played it, but from my understanding this exact feature was literally one of the nails in the coffin for Death Garden.
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@Toybasher said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994818#Comment_3994818
The game isn't over for the survivor when you've been downed a third time. You can still repair generators once you get back up.
Could be, but if you've gotten yourself up twice already, you've spent at least 2 minutes on the ground already.
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Based on the reactions at least, a reduction of hard tunneling will also mean that 2-3 of the survivors are no longer just left to their own devices to do nothing but gens while the killer puts all the pressure on one person.
People might actually find that pressuring survivors to stop them from doing gens coincidentally slows down gen progress.
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@Mr_K said:
As long as the survivor doesn't die you can technically hook a survivor twice in a row. But if they die during that 2nd hook you are screwed.
It has to be a hook action. This is at the bottom of the patch notes as a known issue because it isn't currently working as intended on ptb:
Tunneling reduction penalties trigger when Survivors go from the struggle hook phase to Sacrifice. These should only trigger when a hook interaction is performed to Sacrifice a Survivor.
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The game isn't over for the killer when gates are powered. You can still secure kills in the end game.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994771#Comment_3994771
i believe otz tested it on stream already.
Even if that's the case then it's not working correctly on the PTB. Because I linked you the actual BHVR community manager saying it should be different.
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They already addressed this and stated it's 20% of current gen progress, so it's exactly like pop base kit:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/455289/25-gen-repair-speed-bonus-if-someone-dies-before-6th-hook-state
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994233#Comment_3994233
Yet again buff for stronger killers and killers with mobility and very small buff for weaker killers with no mobility and set up killers, weaker killers cant use it that often and many lack ability to get fast downs.
So, this is almost always true. And it's been the mantra for years.
The only way to get beyond this issue is to implement something meaningful that deals with tunneling and camping, and that's been the cure issue for years.
They need to put this in place, so future updates can actually buff trapper individually and not have "but this buff will only be used to tunnel harder" like we've seen for at least the past 3 years.
Every single killer buff is just used to tunnel more effectively. At least until this goes live.
I'm actually looking forward to being able to address some of these other issues without hard tunneling coming into the picture and ruining any possible fixes moving forward.
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There are many issues in this game that are actively held up because tunneling is far too simple to execute.
Lower tier killers can't be buffed, we can't accurately balance anything in the game as long as these base kit "strategies" go unaddressed.
It's time to pull off the band aid and deal with tunneling so we can actually have meaningful conversations about the rest.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
Maybe they would be less upset if this community didn't treat people without uninterrupted winstreaks as subhuman trash? Just a thought.
It's been 3 years of these same people having literally zero empathy for anyone except themselves in this game.
Similar massive changes over the years have been met with "git gud", "you're refusing to adapt", "just quit if you don't like it", or "you're just entitled".
Mostly from the same group of people currently melting down over this patch that now will affect then and their gameplay instead.
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@Skeleton23 said:
Me writing posts and asking questions doesn't change my decision. And if a player isnt allowed to have there own thoughts on something them whats the point in having feedback. Regardless if there negative or a little bit unnecessary.
Where afraid because if the Survivors Gen Rush The Gens there's nothing the Killer can do about it because they cant Kill until 6 total hooks stats. And Rushing there Objective is Tunneling
Man, if only there was some role in the game that had the job of stopping survivors by injuring them and putting them in time out so they can't do whatever they want.
They should really add that. Maybe call it killer instead of "saboteur" or something.
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Pop is base kit in this patch?
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Good luck with whatever you decide to do next.
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@TheArbiter said:
I guess i was delusional for thinking at max they would do 15% bonus speed
I mean, repair speed isn't the problem after I've person dies, since there's basically no one to work on gens. One on hook, one in chase, and one going for rescue means no one is even touching a gen.
25% is nowhere near the equivalent of "having a 4th teammate"
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
I think in general, there needs to be a check in place whether or not the killer interacted directly with the survivor in any way, leading to their death.
As to make it non-abusable by anyone.In what world do you think that eliminating a survivor is some kind of "gotcha" to the killer?
It's this game actually "regression simulator" for some people still?
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@UndeddJester said:
Can you imagine being a new player trying to learn these rules on Trapper?
You chase whoever you see, hook a death hook survivor who steps in your trap, and then wonder why you can't kick gens any more.... you logicallyvreport a bug in the forums to say you can't kick gens anymore, and the collective turns round and says "yeah, that's intended... you as the killer, killed someone too fast".
You then learn you also gave Survivors a repair speed bonus too... when they ask why, the response is "because it isn't fun to be killed as a Survivor".
Wild ride on that players emotional roller coaster I'm sure.
First of all, there's a literal UI element that will show you the last hooked survivor. So unless you're also uninquisitive as to what that means or why it exists then you'll understand that there's at least something concerning that survivor.
Second, you could say that about literally anything in the game. This is just complaining about the learning curve of the game and basic game knowledge.
Windows blocking, bloodlust, even anti gen tapping also fit this exact description. And I never saw anyone, even the most biased players, complaining that "anti gen tap doesn't explain what is happening to new players, you have to figure this out on your own, OMG".
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993369#Comment_3993369
Would you be ok with bhvr reverting this if there was enough outcry? if not why?
There's been enough outcry without anyone actually testing this, and we didn't even have the full details like numbers yet.
So even if this patch provides 1% gen repair speed and 99% base kit pop, people are still opposed to it.
The amount of crying, panicking, and manipulation in seeing on these forums tells me exactly one thing: just the idea of being able to lose regression is a huge motivator for the small part of the community that actually tries on hard tunneling.
If people are this freaked out over the idea that regression might turn off, then there's actually a chance this mechanic will mitigate hard tunneling at the start of the match.
And since that's exactly what the mechanic is supposed to be doing, then, impressively, BHVR has actually come up with a solution that incentivizes hooks, punishes tunneling (and only tunneling), and is designed to not be abusable from the start.
And people who can't adapt literally can't handle that. Apparently.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993861#Comment_3993861
Hmm I think he's trying to say "Why am I getting punished when Survivor makes mistake and died because of it"
Honestly this system shouldn't ever punish Sadako/Pig
So, I can't find a source, but others have said that BHVR confirmed an early head pop/condemn doesn't trigger the system.
Regardless of source, that's what ptb testing is for: to see if this does or doesn't work. Because all we have right now is speculation (or for some people, simply panic or manipulation).
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993842#Comment_3993842
Was watching this earlier and the very first match was like that where someone died "early". Wasn't really tunneled or anything, but even with the killer being pretty tame and just getting hits in where they can, by the new updates rules... they'd get hit with both penalties while there's 2 gens left...
https://youtu.be/u_lG1vnIvRw?si=-cZZmIBHw-bgYUqP
I feel like they're going to have to have better detection on what constitutes tunneling.
Did you watch this game? I'm going to point out that you chose this example here. Let's look at this game:
They got an early kill at 2 gens left, like you said. They also 4k'd the team with 2 gens left.
They had a literal meme build of random perks. I'll quote his exact words at the end of the match:
We have managed to win a game with the worst killer in the game, the most underused perks, and no add-ons.
He also mentions this is his second try to win using this "build".
He kicks a gen exactly once, so the anti tunnel literally doesn't come into play here whatsoever. That kick didn't do anything, and the survivor speed boost would've been meaningless here because getting the early elimination was still so powerful he easily won the game.
The survivors basically had no chance to touch gens after that first elimination. Which is why the value for a repair speed will make or break this, a value I might add, that we don't have yet.
So, I think if someone can turn their monitor off, slam their face in the keyboard, and basically win with no effort, then it really sounds like the game could use even just a bit of something, anything that would make this not just a "free win".
That should've been a "challenge for content" and he accidentally hit a home run while actively trying to sabotage himself.
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@dbd900bach said:
After the latest PTB patch notes were released, it was no surprise that it divided the community, most arguments and comments diluded into us vs them.
Regardless of what side a player is voicing their opinion from, I think it now more important now than ever to be objective about these changes. Unbiased and looking at the bigger picture from both sides rather than just one side. However, we all love this game, or at least did at one point and I think most of everyone can agree that we only want it to succeed. Succeed and become better than it is now. I can scarcely blame people for being worried about the games future, especially with such extreme changes that will affect the actual foundation of the game.
Yes, there are certain changes that should not make it live, but that does not mean the patch as a whole should be thrown away. Thats why feedback is so important, and thats why we voice our opinions. This patch will be changed before release, but I think its important to consider that even more will change after it reaches live servers. These are the first steps towards refreshing the game and opening up possibilities that we didn't think would ever happen. Its not the end all, be all and nothing happens in the aftermath.
We're so used to bandaid fixes and issues being solved with perks rather than actually fixing the issue. This is actually attempting to fix the issue. Doom posting and not even giving it a chance is what will really kill the game because change and innovation is what will keep this game going for another 5 years, and maybe even beyond that.
It's less "objectivity" and more "having a perspective for total game health" or maybe "being conscious that personal preference or bias exists and trying to see things from a different perspective".
But to the actual topic, I think it's that it's been over 3 years now that this community has had their perception reinforced repeatedly that screaming at the devs loudly, early, and as often as possible is actually an effective way to get the changes that they, specifically, want.
So that's how I see an awful lot of these conversations on the forums right now. There is a fairly small, but insanely loud group that is literally flooding nearly every post on every page trying to make it sound like the sky is falling.
And they're doing that because they think it's an effective way to get the devs to back down, even slightly. And, so far, the track record by BHVR has been that they "listen to feedback" and will, even occasionally, cave to that pressure.
And, for the record, this does apply to issues on both sides, historically.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993354#Comment_3993354
Eeeh what? did you even read what i said? where do you see me advocate for tunneling?? Please stop putting words in my mouth, thank you.
I am talking about the 6 hook rule as an issue without a hook indicater.
I used to main killer, but now I mostly play friendly when I do play as killer. I don’t always make it obvious, though. I still sometimes hook survivors, but never more than twice. The problem is, that I sometimes forget who’s been hooked once or twice, so I accidentally kill people now and then.
Lets say there are 4 survivors A,B,C,D
- Hook Survivor A
- Hook Survivor B
- Hook Survivor A
- Hook Survivor B
Now killers have to remember that survivor A is on death hook and they actively have to avoid them, and they can't hook Survivor B either.
Now imagine a killer that plays sweaty versus a sweaty swf, the stress wont make it easier, and some swf even play as 4 identical survivors, this can only go wrong.
killers NEED a way to track hook states with this …
I did read what you said, you seem to not have read my entire post because I address this.
Knowing hooks is game sense. And that's being hyperbolic because it's literally just memory, since the killer is actively engaged with each hook.
It's literally the simplest skill check you can give a player. It's also the reason that other things don't exist, such as:
- Where exit gates are located after the initial aura read is gone (you're expected to remember it)
- Where gens are located (you're expected to find them and remember it)
- How maps are laid out and what configurations are available (you're expected to remember it)
This feature literally shows you the last person hooked also.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992658#Comment_3992658
seeing the last hooked still dosnt help killer keep track to avoid getting a kill before the 6th hook
Tunneling is meta because an early kill basically wins you the game.
All of these arguments are basically just saying that people don't understand why tunneling early enough wins you the game. Because it's not due to regression, it's "you eliminated a survivor".
So instead of one on hook, one going for rescue, one in chase, and one on gens, they can only do 3 of the 4 things when one dies. Which means that juggling survivors removes the only optional task: gens.
If you think you need an early tunnel and regression, then you're probably someone who relies way too heavily on game stall, and not enough on really any other area of the game (game sense or information, game knowledge and counterplay, not looping tightly or correctly, not zoning, not paying attention to details).
The attention to details is literally hooks. This really isn't that hard. As someone who tracked enemy ultimately charge in overwatch, back when there were 6 players to track and (still today) zero outward indicators of progress, tracking hooks is way, way simpler.
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I'm just going to point out that survivors spawn together now, and have to travel to reach separate gens. And since you don't want to do adjacent gens immediately, you may have to go a ways for that.
You know how "weak m1 killers" apparently can't take the time to cross the map? Survivors are even slower than that.
And gens take 90 seconds.
So, in this hypothetical scenario, the question you should be asking is why is it taking over two minutes for the killer to locate someone, and finish one chase?
Because lethal pursuer solves a significant part of the time waste up front here at minimum.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993123#Comment_3993123
It isn't that deep, im just stating they are affected somewhat by this change. So using semi targeting might have been the wrong terminology.
I do love the idea of spreading hooks(and honestly I wish this game was less about killer getting kills and more about getting hooks). Its a needed change tbh because tunneling sucks.
Oh, then yeah, it's an interesting side effect for sure.
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I honestly don't think it's that deep.
BHVR actually seems to understand that an awful lot of killers seem to be very motivated by regression.
So giving bonus regression on spreading hooks and even just the threat of losing regression (even if it doesn't change the impact of an early death being basically still a win), that's likely enough for people to change their behavior.
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To date, my absolute most favorite game I've ever played was spoon Myers. It's was years ago, but I still remember it.
I took them to Lery's, got to jump scare absolutely everyone at least once and then was planning to just let everyone go for giving me a fun game.
I had Meg trying to bless my haunted ground totem, and I shook my head and told her no. Hooked her trying, but she kept going back. She finally blessed it (circle) and healed while exposed while I was standing 3 feet away looking from her to the totem in disappointment the whole time.
Feng got the memo and actually chased me around the map for a bit, and even threw the pallets for me since I couldn't.
Absolutely hilarious game, and hopefully they had fun too. Though I think Jeff might've jumped out of his skin at least once.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991727#Comment_3991727
The infinite thing is absolutely not the same. To go with your analogy, how about instead of removing the infinities like they did, instead after three full loops all the doors and windows were blocked? Sure, the killer made a bad play, but now we need a game mechanic to help out the killer. That's what this anti-tunnel is doing.
Also, while I am a P100 Pig main on killer side, I am also a P65 Jill Valentine Main on Survivor. When someone in a match is tunneled, it's usually me. So I get how frustrating being tunneled is. I am still absolutely against these changes.Nah, that's not it either.
How about, after a few loops of not catching the survivor, the killer gets an obscene amount of haste. Like 3% is game breaking, so let's go with 5%. Then if they still can't even get a hit, we give them more haste and stack it.
Man, that would be broken as hell.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992968#Comment_3992968
I mean, I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion there but I'm not making a comment about the new system here. I'm talking about people who say "every survivor complaint response gets nerfed into oblivion immediately because of complaining", which is a statement I think is just flat out false.
I was asking the question legitimately, too, not rhetorically. I wanted to know if people were thinking of other changes I'm not thinking of myself when they say this.
I'll say that I agree with you and I can't think of this occurring enough to be a "major complaint".
But the only actual examples I can come up with feel like a stretch:
Reassurance would've been better overall anti camp on the PTB version, but was changed/nerfed going to live.
AFK crows was a solution to both a survivor complaint and a "survivor" complaint, and were nerfed after live (arguably, a deserved nerf, but still a nerf)
Or individual killer balance. This one is situational, and highly depends on your personal perspective (or personal bias). Like, for example, skull merchant. Definitely complained about (by basically everyone) and definitely nerfed, even though I personally disagree with how it was handled in the last iteration, as do most people. Even if I also agree that something needed to be done.
Again, I feel like this is kinda stretching into areas that aren't actually "base kit mechanics" also. So I'm not sure what they're talking about either.
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@BreadLord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992852#Comment_3992852
that survivor could have been dead and its a 3v1, but now they get up and its another person on a gen… yes thats punishing
Genuinely, if it takes you more than 90 seconds to close out another chase, which is the way around "turning off regression", then the problem has nothing to do with the game, but the killer player.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992572#Comment_3992572
And regardless—even if BHVR handed me every tool to win faster or easier, that’s not the point. I’m not BHVR’s court jester sent in to entertain survivor stacks. I’m the Killer. If people misplay in front of me and openings appear, I should be allowed to punish and capitalize without putting myself at a forced disadvantage.
That’s my job. In a match I have one task: killing. What I refuse most is this: survivors can play badly while I’m expected to stand there, look the other way, and “accept” it—then I’m the one who gets punished, even though they are the ones misplaying.
Great news: the Elusive change means they can't do anything even if they are trying to be in-your-face annoying. (And even then they're just a ghost)
Every aspect of this system is within the killers control. All of it.
If you're concerned about mistakes punishing you, they're your mistakes as the killer.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3991554#Comment_3991554
its not with zero downside if killers hook us 1, 1, 2, 1. The survivors do get a repair speed buff if anyone is killed before 6 hooks, so they have to do 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1. How the killers should be able to keep track of how many hooks everyone have, well, luck i guess. I cant what i play killer.
I meant you can avoid the "turns off the regression and gen blocking" aspect, since that's what we were taking about.
Without numbers, it's all speculation on the gen repair speed. But since eliminating a survivor early usually means that most, if not all gen progress completely stops then hooking 1, 1, 2, 1 is going to still nearly completely stop gen progress also.
It doesn't matter how much faster you could do a gen, if you aren't physically able to touch one. Which is why I usually say that any repair speed bonus would have to be massive, like 100%+, to actually counteract an early elimination. There's no chance they go that far, it'll be like 15%, then nerfed to 10% after outcry on the PTB. (But I could be wrong, again, still speculation at this point)
As far as keeping track of hooks, the new system literally will show you on the UI who was last hooked. I don't see how tracking hooks is that difficult, at least in 4v1. Not that you can't sometimes get it wrong, but…don't people always say that players should have consequences for making mistakes also? Why should that only apply to survivors?