AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@FabledSpider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990193#Comment_3990193
you are more likely to kill all survivors if all gens are still up that is just a fact you are arguing a point that is completely countered by the fact people run anti gen progress builds
That doesn't change that the gens are secondary.
You can run an end game build, like blood warden, as an example, and kill everyone after the gens are complete.
Just like you can still escape if all the pallets on the map have been consumed. They're a resource to allow you to complete your primary objective.
Spreading pressure is one of the best slowdowns in the game. And yet, since tunneling is far simpler and takes far less game sense and skill, most people take the easy route and tunnel relentlessly and don't bother to learn anything else.
In fact, there are many who not only won't bother to learn anything else, they scream at the devs whenever their "one trick" of tunneling the first survivor they see doesn't automatically win them the match.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990179#Comment_3990179
How about survivors let killer chase every one of them first before even touching a gen? Apparently this won't happen in a normal game, only in some fantasy dream one.
Killers need to capitalize on every mistake survivors make, just like killers are currently punished for every mistake they do. This seem to be a norm when applied to a killer role but when same principle is given to survivor role, suddenly things stop being fair or equal.
I mean, this just demonstrates your misunderstanding of how the game functions on a fundamental level.
If the killer didn't exist, or was afk, or simply did nothing, then the game is "do gens and leave". The default for survivors is to do gens and escape. The only force/entity in the game that alters that is the killer.
Unless or until the killer gives survivors something to do other than gens the survivors will do gens.
If you are expecting the survivors to stand around politely waiting to be fodder, that's simply unrealistic and sounds entitled.
You're going to an extreme, in saying that survivors aren't "allowed" to touch gens, but that's not the equivalent of what's happening for killer here.
There's a very distinct benefit of free information and gen regression to encourage spreading hooks. And you aren't "completely barred" from tunneling someone out, you can choose to, or slug them to make them in time out in another way, or can spread hooks for the benefits. Killer agency is completely intact and at no point is the killer "unable to pursue their objective" in any sense of the word.
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@FabledSpider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990174#Comment_3990174
what are you talking about, gens are a killers objective, the whole point is to slow down how fast survivors are doing them to stop people getting out, there are whole builds about slowing them down. Have you even ever played killer before.
You are so confused.
It's the killer, not the saboteur.
Killing survivors is the objective, gens are a resource that you can expend in the process of that goal. In fact, killers can still complete their objective of killing survivors even if all gens are done.
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@FabledSpider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990179#Comment_3990179
HE IS SAYING THEY ARE THE WEAKEST LINK BECAUSE HE KEEPS MAKING MISTAKES AND GETTING FOUND, are you ok?
Being found at the base of the your hook because the killer never left, doesn't make you a weak link. Survivors can't just teleport away, and the killer knows exactly where the hook is.
You're still ignoring that post of killer skill is identifying where the entire survivor team is, and trying to track all of them. You know, like the ones doing gens.
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@FabledSpider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990144#Comment_3990144
he’s not saying he targets the weakest link he is saying they did because they are the weakest link
This isn't a hard concept:
How do you know if they're the weakest link if you only chase one person?
If you've chased all 4 survivors, then I could buy this argument, but then... You aren't tunneling and this new system is literally only buffing the killer, since none of the "tunneling deterrents" come into play.
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@FabledSpider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990129#Comment_3990129
half of those listed ways to find survivors are temperamental, or are only used to keep a chase rather than find someone outright. Also if your way of finding someone is “I have been everywhere but killer shack and haven’t seen her” then the chances are she’s popping that gen before you get there.
Gens aren't the killers objective, survivors are.
Gens are, at best, a consumable resource for the killer like pallets.
But you're shifting the goal post. You started by saying that you couldn't find anyone, and now it's "but the gen had progress". But this is a viable way to find survivors, base kit, for all killers. It's also called game sense, and a player skill.
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@Green_Sliche said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990086#Comment_3990086
Same can be said about survivors. One of tasks that survivors have is to run away from the killer for as long as possible. Why killer should be punished for finding the weakest link in the survivor team? Survivor's inability to last longer than 10 seconds in chase should be on them, there are plenty of perks to ''extend'' chases and remain relevant in the match too.
Because searching for the "weakest link" isn't a part of this process in any way. You're just chasing the first person you see into they die.
You're trying to imply there's some calculated strategy here, where the reality is it's literally a "shut off your brain" and "chase the first thing that moves until it dies".
If you get lucky and get fast chases, then that results in a steamroll win. If you get unlucky and find the strong link, you can still lose (although the "good" survivor is still likely to die).
Maps have been nerfed, pallets weakened, loops nerfed, tile spawn logic required to avoid chaining. This isn't 2018 with literal infinites, it's 2025 with entire maps of dead zones. Getting chased and downed isn't a "skill issue" when the last few years have all been pushing to make those chases shorter (demonstrably, with stats to show that was successful). Not by skill, by literally stacking the deck in the killers favor.
So even with this "strategy" killers can still manage to win games quite often because the mechanics to stop it simply didn't exist in live yet. The band aid perks are merely suggestions the killer can freely ignore.
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@FabledSpider said:
Ok so my mechanic to help me find other survivors is undone by using lockers… and the only thing that shows me who I have hooked before is a hud symbol that indicates the previous survivor I have hooked. So I will query this.
Survivor A gets hooked
Survivor B gets hooked
Survivor A screws up and gets hooked again (not tunnelling because it was their mistake and you hooked someone in between), They get annoyed and give up, now there are 4-5 gens that I cannot kick at all.
Also why do miserable survivor games get developer intervention, but there is a trend at the moment (bully builds on new killers) and they aren’t doing anything about this to solve miserable killer games.
Ok so my mechanic to help me find other survivors is undone by using lockers
Speaking as someone who played before 6.1 and the meta was to hop in a locker to avoid BBQ, this is good for the game.
Aura read is not the only indicator of survivor existence (you have gen progress, scratch marks, breathing, loud vaults, or just general "I've been everywhere except shack and haven't seen sable yet").
But even so, having to get off a gen to hide in a locker for 8-10 seconds and go back is all time spent not on gens. This slows down the game for free.
Also why do miserable survivor games get developer intervention, but there is a trend at the moment (bully builds on new killers) and they aren’t doing anything about this to solve miserable killer games.
I'm not even going to bother dealing with the whataboutism here.
Tunneling and camping have been complaints since the beginning of the game: 9+ years. Dead hard was nerfed twice after 6 years. It's been long since due for them to do something meaningful about these day 1 issues.
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I say the same thing every time this comes up, which is that the killers role at its core is to find, hunt/chase, and sacrifice survivors.
There are dozens of information perks, and even killer kits and add-ons that help you locate survivors. Distortion was deleted for exactly this purpose.
If you can't find people, that is 100% a skill/game sense/game knowledge problem on your end at this point.
(I'm also going to add that this feature brings base kit BBQ, you don't even need a perk with this update).
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@Crowman said:
It doesn't seem like the boosts killers get for not tunneling outweigh what survivors get to fight tunneling. Which I think is a problem, because part of why tunneling is a problem in the first place is the lack of reward for not tunneling so this is just nerfs.
I think getting base kit pop and BBQ is pretty substantial, tbh.
Every single other downside effect is completely avoided by not tunneling until hook 6 and is completely within the killers control.
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@TheSingleQuentinMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/454812/anti-tunnel-changes-revealed
As a killer main, I'm not against this. I seriously appreciate the fact that they are compensating for it with some buffs for killers not tunneling. I would say this follows along with Behavior's typical design philosophy of adding new things to solve a problem, instead of removing things, which is typically nice for old players who get new gameplay elements, but very confusing for newer players.
I do think they should keep in mind reasons killers tunnel other than raw advantage, such as:
-Not remembering who you hooked last.
-Trying to prevent a sabo/pallet/flash save. On that note, a shocking number of survivors will try to sabotage the hook, after you go out of your way to hook the one survivor who is not dead on hook.
-Killer specific circumstances that incentivize tunneling. Namely, Trapper can put a trap in a super clever spot, but than a survivor who just got off the hook walks into on accident, on the other side of the map from trapper. If he ignores the trapped survivor, the trap did nothing but slow them down for a second, and it's been disarmed now. Effectively, trapper gets punished for not tunneling in this specific instance.
Added a unique effect to the Killer hook state UI that indicates the last Survivor they hooked.
Seems they did include this.
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Unless they give something like an endurance effect for even a couple seconds when you get up, this won't do much to prevent the killer from camping one slug and just instantly downing them again.
But it would be helpful in the "slug everyone at 5 gens" issue since you can't camp more than one slug at a time.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989374#Comment_3989374
What? Did you even fully watch it?
The video was not just about how Hook times being buffed added 80sec of extra time to do gens (which kind of invalidated the gen time increase), heal or whatever but that was not the only point made. The video went into detail about the slow addition of powerful perks has made things harder and that the best perks for killer are all nurfed into the ground.
Gen regression outside of DMS+PR is pointless, all anti-heal is so weak its next to useless and perks used to counter or make certain actions more difficult like franklins being nuked so no counter to items then there was the knockout change to make slugging more difficult then the mangled changes to make hit and run worse.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QAP5ZLKF2FW0/image.png
Meanwhile survs have perks that are all powerful on their own and also synergise with one another like vigil feeding into shoulder the burden into resurgence into conviction into soul guard into unbreakable. Killers just don't have same choice for powerful perks that the survivor role has.
You do realize that hooks are the time out portion this freeze tag game, right?
They also continue on their own and don't need to be supervised while the survivor is hooked.
The killer's entire purpose and role in the game is to give survivors something to do other than gens. Go chase them and the gen progress automatically slows down.
If survivors are doing gens "for free" during a hook, it's because the killer is allowing them to. It's physically impossible for a survivor to do a gen if the killer is pressuring that survivor.
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As far as we've been told, each gen is counted the same and each hook. Although the effect does stack, which is the point for helping mitigate snowballing for either side.
I'm not sure why you think this makes "spreading hooks" worse. Spreading hooks is literally spreading the pressure, which is automatically slowdown: survivors physically can't do gens of the killer is giving them attention, and can do whatever they want if the killer is hard focusing one person out of the game.
Having someone not touching a gen at all is worth way, way more than just letting them do a gen for free, at least for the killer.
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I have a build on Cheryl that uses flashbang, blast mine, residual manifest, and head on.
Kind of shut down a spoon Myers with it once on accident.
I don't recommend it unless you know what you're getting into. It either doesn't work (most of the time) or you get bled out for 4 minutes.
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The only way I could see this working even slightly would be two teams of 5: 1 killer and 4 survivors (or so) per team. Each team (let's just say red vs blue for simplicity) are working to eliminate the other survivors and escape with their team.
So basically, all the survivors are working to complete more gens than the other team, and all the killers are working to pressure the other teams survivors and get eliminations.
Maybe, giving "scoring" by objective progress (gens/hooks) or just by BP.
But that would also allow things like the red team killer to work with the red team survivors to deny hooks or protect gen completion.
Or, instead of escapes, just use a tug of war system that shows which team has more gen progress, dynamically.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988526#Comment_3988526
I see you edited your OP, and now you're basically making my point for me: why do you want longer queues?
would rather wait for longer and have more balanced and fun games, than shorter wait time to play 10 mins of a killer game because im not playing someone who is oppresive and go back to queue for another 30
Also, since you've said basically nothing of any substance here, you so realize you're just calling for general "nerfs", right? You haven't said anything whatsoever about what you think is the problem, just nerf anything.
didn't go into details on purpose but i did only mention instant heals and on command sprint burst
would rather wait for longer and have more balanced and fun games, than shorter wait time to play 10 mins of a killer game because im not playing someone who is oppresive and go back to queue for another 30
Well, people have been screaming for years that playing with friends is the most overpowered thing in the entire game and nothing compares. And now killers, the power role anyway, have KWF. So, by extension, the most overpowered thing this game has ever seen, which everyone wants to play (insanely popular), and people really don't want to play against without some obscene levels of BP incentive.
And, since your edit at least heavily implies that you're playing in a duo, sounds like you're taking advantage of that also.
I'm just gonna leave it here, since you seem to not care one bit about already insane queue times getting far, far worse. 2v8, like most events, isn't about "balance", it's 100% about a couple weeks of something novelty and unusual, typically because it's not completely balanced. (And this goes for either side, depending on which event).
But I'll step away from the conversation I guess and leave you to your downvote simulator project here.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988516#Comment_3988516
I'm really not seeing a problem here. If survivor is so "omgwtf" overpowered, like you seem to imply, you can play survivor like 2 or 3 times while waiting for your killer match.
3 survivor games for a 10 mins killer game, how productive and fun for me. oh also
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/04ICGXTBKBU8/image.png
this says hi randomly and there goes my queue back to 30 mins and another 3 survivor games
So...
I see you edited your OP, and now you're basically making my point for me: why do you want longer queues?
Also, since you've said basically nothing of any substance here, you so realize you're just calling for general "nerfs", right? You haven't said anything whatsoever about what you think is the problem, just nerf anything.
And if you're spending about 3 times as many matches playing survivor waiting for a killer game, your general "just nerf survivor" stance here makes you play more survivor (which sucks more, in some nebulous manner, if you get your way) to play that same one killer match.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3988499#Comment_3988499
it was literally that last 2 v 8, the only diffrence now there is play while u wait
and the balance was bout the same beside the fact that legion wasn't "nerfed"
Sounds like there's not a whole lot of reason to play survivor then. Which is probably why dreaming of nerfs is counter productive for basically everyone in this case.
Making the side that people have significantly less interest in playing suck more sounds more like a power trip fantasy than a realistic solution to game balance.
I'm really not seeing a problem here. If survivor is so "omgwtf" overpowered, like you seem to imply, you can play survivor like 2 or 3 times while waiting for your killer match.
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Sure, we can talk about nerfing survivors.
How long would you like your killer queue to last and we can brainstorm how to meet that goal. We're starting at about 20 minutes, so are you thinking like 40 or 60+?
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There's a big difference between "his power isn't good" and "I'm not good with his power".
This makes it sound like you can't hit axes and are just playing him as a slow, M1 killer... Which, yeah, that's gonna feel awful if you aren't using his kit in any way.
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Glad I'm not the only one that sees the value of lucky break!
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Sounds like you should play survivor and post the vod of your gameplay.
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This is why the cages aren't a good solution to camping.
Even when they moved more consistently in earlier versions, it's just not that hard to learn the potential spawn locations and just go straight to them.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987231#Comment_3987231
What happens to the gens if the team is on-point and both killers choose to lurk around somebody in a cage?
Good for them, the gens get to actually play the game.
Oh wait, no. Gens aren't players.
Almost like, if the killer(s) are standing around doing nothing, it doesn't create any actual gameplay in the match.
Could you imagine if there were some kind of mechanic that discouraged the killers from standing around admiring a cage that already can't act?
They should really implement something that forces the killer to go actually play the game. Oh, hey, look: a thread about exactly that topic.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987168#Comment_3987168
Part of me feels like this strat is outdated though. Gens take more charges to complete now and all it takes is one or two gen regression/blocking perks to increase that time even further. I don't think hook timers have been extended either unless you count perks that force other Survivors to be near the hook. That means you can't pop all the gens while that Survivor is hooked without risking more dying in the process. It's incredibly tight and is unlikely to be successful unless you're blessed by the matchmaking gods.
I don't think hook timers have been extended either
In fairness, they did add an extra 10 seconds to hook stages about a year ago. While sorely needed, it still doesn't change your other point that:
That means you can't pop all the gens while that Survivor is hooked without risking more dying in the process. It's incredibly tight and is unlikely to be successful unless you're blessed by the matchmaking gods.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
Strangely enough it seems the killers can also easily predict where a cage is going to go.
I had a spirit that downed me, then came all the way to my cage to proxy camp that. When it finally moved, 15 seconds later she had phased right to my cage again. Someone else had to trade just so I wouldn't get bullied out of the game.
Cage spawns aren't that hard to predict. It's like totem spawns: there can only be so many total, and you can easily learn them. With cages, it greatly narrows down the possibilities since it's trying to move "away" from you.
It's the main reason this cage system would be ineffective at deterring camping and tunneling in the main game.
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@Tenac said:
My question in regards to tunneling penalties is who would they know or enforce it. For example what if a killer just happens to run into the same survivor multiple times? Are they supposed to say "Oh well I've hooked them twice, I don't want to get in trouble." Also we have all encounted survivors that deliberately engage with the killer for bold points or just to be funny/rude. I'm not saying tunneling can't be a problem if they are constantly targeting the same player over multiple matches or simply ignoring easy downs to chase that one person. I just feel it would be very difficult to fairly implement.
The best way to mitigate tunneling is to make it less efficient. If it isn't automatically "the best way to win in every situation ever" in some people's minds, then people will stop doing it.
I've talked about a hook donation system before, which is a bit more complex, but a simpler version to get the point across would be to have each survivor's first hook stage be taken from a shared pool, and each person only has (what is currently) second hook, that's only taken I've the shared pool is used up.
So, the killers first elimination by hooking becomes hook #6, and while killers could continue to camp and tunnel their first hook of the game, it would result in them losing. You can't just focus one survivor (by camping or tunneling) for up to 6 minutes without the other 2-3 survivors doing gens and leaving for free while you stand around doing nothing.
If camping and tunneling stops being an "auto win" condition, people will stop doing it.
And, to your point, if a survivor goes out of their way to be hooked right away, then that's just one less hook in the shared pool. It's detrimental to the survivors and just helps the killer burn through the shared hook pool faster.
This isn't a "punishment" system, it's changing the efficiency of how camping and tunneling early game works, and largely doesn't impact end game ("resorting to") tunneling situations.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
This is why it’s a double standard, when people say BHVR should have done a “wait and see” grace period before nerfing fog vials.How many survivors said BHVR should have done a “wait and see” before nerfing Ghoul? How many survivors said BHVR should have done a “wait and see” before nerfing new Clown?
Survivors are always demanding for killer nerfs to happen immediately, and then getting upset if they don’t get a huge grace period before survivor nerfs happen. It’s a bad double standard.
If you're looking for double standards, you're looking in the wrong place.
We've already covered the ground of "when does haste break the game?" And the answer for when "free, infinite haste" is game breaking is 3%.
Because, with this new clown buff, we've completely turned 180 on every reason that MfT was nerfed. The two loudest reasons were "3% of free infinite haste breaks the game" and "it stacks with hope, haste stacking is broken".
Haste stacking already had the mask removed when the devs actually listened and announced they were removing all haste stacking. Then suddenly those same people realized they were going to be affected by losing killer haste stacking and screamed so loud the devs pulled the plug on it immediately.
Now, were seeing that "well, 12%+ haste that you can use infinitely is perfectly fine, just give it more time".
Please.
The honest answer here is that people want it to be "ok" this time because it's killer haste, and survivors should be treated differently. Period.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985905#Comment_3985905
I have significant hours on onryo since day 1 as well. You posted cherry picked match stats, and someone asked for overall stats of the bigger picture, to which you refused.
Were you taking a break when onryo was completely busted with her slug condemned build back when her one addon applied a stack to healing people off the ground? Any "small" tweaks can easily put her back at that state.
I agree that she has pain points, and ultimately she's an m1 killer without an insta pallet break ability or insta vault ability, but she is on the edge of being broken and unfun for survivors again because of her condemned ability. A lot of it comes down to play style, and hers requires more brain power than someone like kaneki to successfully apply pressure, and to be successful, she has fewer choices than other killers.
She has fallen to the wayside to killers like springtrap due to power creep, but I would much rather springtrap be nerfed into an acceptable spot than onryo getting a buff. Free map wide teleports is not fun at all for survivors. At least her TVs provide some counterplay.
I'll add that we've basically tried every combination with this killer as far as tvs go as well.
Her initial release was basically as OP is expecting: the "correct play" for survivors was to completely ignore the TVs and tapes unless you got to about 4-5 stacks, then go briefly clear them with a tape. And survivors were actively punished for touching the TVs otherwise.
But, while 1.0 had the exact gameplay op is expecting, with "teleports available almost always and only on cooldown when the killer decides to use them", killers actively complained about this because there was no reason for survivors to interact with the tapes and demanded change.
This led to, what I consider the worst iteration of the killer: "teleportako", which completely shifted her gameplay. Now, instead of "the tape kills you, ignore it", it became "the tape saves you, you must have it". And since the killer could just spam teleport to both deny tapes and apply instant condemn, we got some of the least interactive gameplay this game has ever seen.
"Slugako", as you mentioned, was also awful. But that was more of an add-on issue than the core functionality of the TVs.
Now, it's more of a middle ground where (apparently) no one is happy, despite players who have mastered this killer wiping the floor with their opponents.
It may just be that that the TVs do too much, but changing it from being either the teleport location, or the tape/condemn mechanic would also pretty much get rid of being "lore accurate", which is yet another complaint people raise about killers.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985235#Comment_3985235
Sure, fair enough, those are admirable goals that I don't disagree with, and is generally how I do play killer myself...
However, you do also acknowledge that there are scenarios where the killer has no reason to leave an area right?
As a simple example, if one Survivor is hooked and the other 3 are all lingering the area, then the killer doesn't need to leave hook. You might say "well leave hook and commit to the chase", but why? No one is progressing gens, the Survivors are on the clock here, not the killer. They have to get by him, and by staying near the hook, the killer can potentially get multiple injuries, maybe even a down without even a trade being made, massively increasing their pressure to snowball the game.
Another more realistic example is the Killer may have found a Survivor as they left hook, and that may have tried to loop near the hook and got downed trying to make the trade... in this scenario the killer through simply making logical choices(and through faults of the survivor) has 2 survivors down/hooked, one nearly losing a hook stage, and another survivor slugged on the floor... the killer should camp in this scenario, because a third down gives them immense pressure, and maybe even wins the game outright.
If the point is the killer should "leave hook and go pressure the map", what if the the killer is able to generate the greatest pressure in the map is by camping? Isn't such an Anti-Camp mechanic effectively forcing the killer to lose the game?
This is what fears around camping prevention centre on. Often there are situations where camping is outright losing the game, but there are conceivable scenarios where camping is the best course of action, and a good number of them are Survivor induced....
So I'm raising the point, how do you make an effective anti- camp system, that doesn't punished the killer for camping when camping is the logical and sensible choice for winning the game?
However, you do also acknowledge that there are scenarios where the killer has no reason to leave an area right?
Yes, I've said before and will continue to say that camping, tunneling, slugging, and stealth should be used situationally, and none of them can be outright removed from the game. It's really only the excessive use of any of these that becomes problematic.
If the "strategy" is to always, in every situation use these tactics, then that's a problem to be dealt with. As far as stealth goes, there was a good reason to try and prevent excessive hiding, where survivors aren't touching gens for 10+ minutes at a time. Unfortunately, BHVR's initial attempt at dealing with that also basically removed stealth from the game. It's less punishing for reasonable stealth now, but still has issues with the "slug for the 4k problem", which has been made actively worse in its current state.
As a simple example, if one Survivor is hooked and the other 3 are all lingering the area, then the killer doesn't need to leave hook. You might say "well leave hook and commit to the chase", but why? No one is progressing gens, the Survivors are on the clock here, not the killer.
The problem with this is that you're describing what I generally call "the survivors panicking and falling apart". The survivors have literally no reason to have everyone at the hook, even when the killer is hard camping. This is a tactical mistake, and as much as I hate to go this route, after survivors figure out that this is a tactical error, they will send, at most, one person to trade and let the others do gens.
So the common scenario is a killer standing at the hook, waiting for the survivor team to fall into this trap, and if the survivors are in any way experienced and/or coordinated they will just do gens and let the killer stand around doing nothing.
So once it becomes "only one person shows up" the killer is actively spending 100% of their effort and attention on the only 2 survivors in the entire game who are not progressing gens. The other 2 (or 3 if they're being greedy) are doing gens for free. This is where a lot of "gen rushing" complaints come from. Also unfortunately, instead of recognizing that it might actually be better to pressure the survivors on gens (and prevent the gen progress), they stand still and wait for the panic moment that may or may not ever happen.
If the point is the killer should "leave hook and go pressure the map", what if the the killer is able to generate the greatest pressure in the map is by camping? Isn't such an Anti-Camp mechanic effectively forcing the killer to lose the game?
The problem is that many of the arguments I see about "I need to camp this hook" are self-fulfilling prophecy. Most people argue this from a standpoint of "I have to camp my first hook of the game, since 3-4 gens are basically already complete", then they continue to stand around doing nothing and allowing the gens to finish. They then feel justified that "look, I had no chance" even though they are literally wasting time doing nothing at the hook.
Killers in general, simply don't look at their own gameplay. They aren't getting into chases quickly, can't find survivors (despite dozens of information perks and distortion being deleted), and are largely just waiting around the hook. Killers should feel pressure to keep survivors busy, which may be in chase, or could also be rescue/recovery, killer powers, perks like devour hope. Instead they feel so at ease they can stand around and scream at the devs to make gens slower.
So I'm raising the point, how do you make an effective anti- camp system, that doesn't punished the killer for camping when camping is the logical and sensible choice for winning the game?
Hook donation system. Each survivor can choose to donate their first hook stage to a shared pool that is consumed first before any personal stages, and the stages are refunded, in order, either at end game, or once a certain threshhold of gen progress is finished (say, 400%, which could be 4 complete gens, or cumulative partial progress to prevent 99-ing).
The late/end game doesn't change, it should not be that hard to get 4 hooks in a match. So "resorting to" camping and tunneling is untouched.
Early game camping and tunneling is largely nerfed. The game becomes (or goes back to) "how fast can you burn through hook stages", and the killer needs to basically always be in chase to get that done. They can just stand around the first hook of the game, but they'll be there for about 6 hook stages and automatically lose. So they will leave the hook, go chase someone else, and the gen progress slows down automatically.
The game goal of "getting someone out as fast as possible", which is the modern DbD meta, doesn't change. It's how you get there, by spreading pressure, and spreading hooks. If the survivors all swarm the hook, or trade, then you still burn through hook stages, but any time waiting around for them to panic is wasted. You need to be in chase as much as humanly possible to speed through hooks. This also creates pressure and slows down the game, and doesn't impact end game or scenarios where the survivors are making a mistake for you.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985204#Comment_3985204
Fine... it was originally called Anti Camp, and changed to Anti Face Camp... I'm not disputing that point, but I'm pointing out that Anti Camp is not failing to do it's job, Anti Camp does not currently exist, and it serves no purpose debating about a hypothetical feature that was never implemented.
So the AFC not addressing camping is completely expected, given it was changed to Anti Face Camp, and it allows you to trade much easier and prevents the killer from effectively defending the hook than it does without it, which is why the feature is banned in competative play.
But irreapective of what the AFC does or doesnt do, my question is the same... what exactly do you want from an Anti-Camp mechanic? If you intend to stop the killer from camping, what do you propose with consideration to the situation I have highlighted above? Is the killer forced to place all hooks outside of a 3 gen, because an effective anti-camp system would mean that hooking a survivor inside a 3 gen would mean they can no longer defend that 3 gen, without also allowing the survivor to unhook themselves.
What is it you want from an Anti Camp feature IF it existed?
what exactly do you want from an Anti-Camp mechanic?
I want the devs to be consistent with whether or not a player standing still is considered participating or not.
Because, for survivors, we got "anti hiding" which hard punishes you for doing so, and crows were launched so broken that you couldn't even sneak. Both of these systems, even right now, evaluate if they consider the survivor to be "playing the game" and, if not, punish them with either a waiting period, or giving away their position in the match.
For killers, standing around at a hook, for up to 70 seconds at a time, is somehow different. This isn't gameplay either, and, honestly, the killer determines the gameplay. But this is somehow defended ferociously by the community, and "ok".
What you need, is a system that says "go chase survivors". Go play the game. Go create the gameplay. Don't just stand there and admire the furniture.
And you can't do that with incentives, they tried. Gen kick meta brought about more camping and tunneling because killers had more time to waste doing nothing. Slowing down gens did the same thing, only led to an increase. There is nothing within the match that can incentivized people to stop standing around doing nothing at a hook and calling it "gameplay".
The only incentive that might help is extrinsic, or outside the match. Basically, make the old BBQ BP bonus base kit for hooking multiple survivors, which doesn't impact the match or balance, but rewards the killer outside the game.
So, personally, I expect "anti camp" to mean "the killer leaves the hook and goes to pressure the map", and is punished somehow if they don't do that. And AFC does not, in any way, make this happen.
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@Choaron said:
He was 25% faster for the past few years before this update. Why weren't you complaining, then?
Maybe because people primarily used the hindered bottle (which takes aim, prediction, and was actual PVP interaction with counter play) and situationally used the haste bottle (which takes throwing it at your own feet).
25% haste that has about 5% uptime vs 27% haste that has nearly permanent uptime.
I seem to recall that "free, permanent haste" starts breaking the game at 3%, especially when it stacks with other haste. That was made very clear by the community a while back.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984352#Comment_3984352
”It feels like you’re always at the Killer’s mercy…”
Isn’t that the whole point of the horror genre? I don’t feel like the killer is supposed to be the survivors’ punching bag, but maybe that’s just me.
This actually depends on what specific source material we're talking about.
There's a pretty constant "fear for your life" theme, and a general "final girl" trope. Many people who look at the "horror" aspect of the game focus on movies, games, or other stories where the killer is some fearsome, unstoppable force.
But there's also a common theme where the survivor(s) turn the tables and eventually win. For at least killers like Ghostie, Nemesis, or Xeno, the killer dies at the hands of the survivors in their respective story.
Everyone fantasizes about giving Nemi a rocket launcher, but it's equally canon for Leon to get it.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984359#Comment_3984359
I mean it’s killing, of course the main point to show it for your opponent. Better bring insta kill then, killers see their own mori even more often than survivors, so of course this animation is meant for both players.
As well as people won’t tbag or aimlessly stay on gate to keep wasting time until their target see this and push them out. It’s a way to show your win that game allows u to do
It’s not harmed or else, just question why one role can dodge this while other need to a) waste time pretending to ignore when you realize what they're doing. b) doing something else c)force yourself to pushe them out of gate warching absolutely same cycled animation of crouching.
It works in both sides, but somehow applies to only one
a) waste time pretending to ignore when you realize what they're doing. b) doing something else c)force yourself to pushe them out of gate warching absolutely same cycled animation of crouching.
A slug has basically none of these options. They can't get away from being humped for 4 minutes (so can't "ignore" with a), they can't literally do anything (option b), and can't force the killer to stop what they're doing (option c).
Hope that clarifies things for you.
Because if you're arguing that these should be "the same" then maybe you should ask yourself why not give the survivor the option to injure, and down the killer with the chance of turning that into an escape. Because the equivalent option of injuring, then downing the survivor with the chance of turning it into a kill exists base kit for the killer.
And btw, "just hit them out" is BHVR's official stance on this also. So they recognize the killer has agency here still.
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@tannhauser said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984127#Comment_3984127
Well.. I'm right. So there.
But seriously, I get what you're saying. I just feel like that if survivors play with a little awareness they can create a really awful gen spread for the Killer, and then while the "playable area" technically does shrink, there's a massive dead zone in-between those areas that's really tough to manage if you're not playing a higher-tier killer who can deal with that.
Pallets do disappear, but a lot of times, unless you're playing a killer who can shred through pallets, dead zones are often a loss of efficiency. What I mean by that is all that time you spend chasing a survivor and getting them to drop pallets is time the other survivors have spent on gens.. and then that dead zone doesn't mean anything if no survivor is ever going to be there. But of course, if the deadzone is near where the survivors want to be, then of course it will help. I'm just saying that this isn't really something that helps the Killer so much as it detriments the Survivors if that makes sense.
Sure, Bloodlust is free. It also takes 15 valuable seconds to get to Bloodlust 1, which often isn't enough on its own, and that's without being able to kick pallets or use your power.
And you can absolutely get a 4k when everyone is alive when all gens are done. I'm not disputing that. Miracle games can and do happen. It's just very hard, and against Survivors who know what they're doing, endgame saves are impossible to prevent.
So much time spent chasing or looking for Survivors makes it very hard to catch up in terms of objectives and pacing. That's why the gen-stall meta is here, to make up for that difference. Without any built-in comeback potential for the Killer outside of simply "get insanely lucky, hope the survivors misplay, and get your slug wincon", it's hard not to feel like all of these meta perks are necessary, and even then, sometimes it doesn't feel like enough.
So much time spent chasing or looking for Survivors makes it very hard to catch up in terms of objectives and pacing.
This is where I hard disagree though.
The past 3 years of this game has made maps smaller, pallets, times, and loops weaker. The devs have confirmed that average chase length has gotten shorter.
They've also added a metric ton of information perks, deleted distortion to help give the perks guaranteed value.
The main problem here is that, while people generally understand that like time is valuable (like you say for bloodlust), most killers will spend an awful, awful lot of time doing effectively nothing without realizing it.
By the way people on this forum talk (and even gameplay footage), most people appear to wander the map blindly at the beginning of the game, go out of their way to kick a gen at 5%, and finally get commit to chase with a survivor like 60+ seconds into the match. For most people, it's a huge time waste, just letting survivors do gens because you can't find anyone and are just wasting time.
This gets compounded by camping and tunneling, where even once that first hook is in place, the killer is just standing around waiting and letting survivors do gens. After the first 60 seconds of doing nothing, short chase, then another 50 seconds of camping, 2-3 survivors (who likely haven't even seen the killer yet and are left doing whatever they want) have done 3 full gens, and killers scream "gen rushing" and demand BHVR nerf gen speeds
The issue is the killer being crazy inefficient early game, and not examining their own gameplay.
The game always favors the killer more and more the longer the match goes (this is where those comeback mechanics kick in). People want a guaranteed win, so they will always want longer gens. They could make gens 500 seconds each, and people would still blame gen speeds the first time a game doesn't go their way.
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Dbd does not need voice chat (even if the engine actually supported it). In addition to toxicity, you'd get trolling, and (especially if the killer can hear it) bargaining. People would absolutely work with the killer, even though it's against game rules.
What would be useful is either a ping system, or even just a pre defined set of common phrases, like "I've got the save".
You can prevent spamming automatically, it doesn't need to be moderated, and isn't prone to, let's just call them "content issues" or other abuse.
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It feels extremely difficult to catch up, especially with how there aren't even remotely any basekit comeback mechanics for Killer.
There are tons of base kit comeback mechanics for killer.
As gens get done, the playable area shrinks, survivor resources like pallets, items, and perk charges are consumed, camping and tunneling are literally comeback mechanics (although people use them at any time), bloodlust is actually free.
You basically always have a chance at a kill, and the game isn't over until the match end screen. It may not be likely, and can require extremely good gameplay and possibly perks, but killers can still get a 4k even if all 4 survivors are alive when gens are completed.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981088#Comment_3981088
I think you missed something now after picking your self up with conviction it charges it again counting it as healing one state and after 30 seconds you can go under palett creating almost the same situation not all killers have poer to play around this as not all survivors can deal with tuneling without antitunnel perks.
That honestly sounds like a bug or is at least unintended.
I think it's pretty clear that isn't the point of having the activation requirement. Using conviction shouldn't also count as activating conviction, even if it isn't currently a bug.
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@AdamZ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3982117#Comment_3982117
- 1. "So, they get less of a head start, bare minimum" true but i dont think that really matters since i cant take advantage of that "less of a head start" since i dont have any info of there whereabouts, they could be behind a random rock or tree or locker out of the fifty thats infornt of me and by the time i checkit they can already just run away and i'd have no clue abt it since the fog hides scracth marks.
- 2. really? huh i never actually knew that mindbreaker stops exhaustion from "regressing" i tought its gonna run out in the background or smt, thats good to know thx for the info.
- 3. even still thats only 1 surv out of 4 so while im out there looking for the sneaky bastard the other 3 just sits on a gen, so i either keep lookin for the 1 surv in hopes that i can down them and hook em quick enough for my perks to work like (pain res,bbq,grim,etc. or go to the others in hopes they dont run the same thing and if they do then f me cause they are goin to pop 3 gens right in my face bc i just wasted my precious time for nothing.
- 4. "if you don't bother to chase them, which it sounds like you aren't"
- u see my problem isnt abt the chases, it never was, bc if i do find someone i am gonna chase em, its the fact that they can just deny me from chasing them just by prerunning,dropping fog , hiding, etc wasting my precious time in a trial, which everyone knows that time is the most important resource a killer has
i dont think that really matters since i cant take advantage of that "less of a head start" since i dont have any info of there whereabouts, they could be behind a random rock or tree or locker out of the fifty thats infornt of me and by the time i checkit they can already just run away and i'd have no clue abt it since the fog hides scracth marks.
Then, just as a thought experiment here, if you can't see them, can't see any evidence of the survivor at all, then how is this any different from someone with literally no perks or items simply hiding as soon as they hear a terror radius? Or, how is this different from you coming up on a generator that hasn't been touched in 5 minutes and no one is actually around? You're claiming to have no evidence of a survivor, so how do you even know someone was there recently at all? (I assume gen progress, which is why the second question came first)
It now sounds like you're walking up to a generator that has any amount of progress and are unhappy you didn't find a survivor waiting patiently for you.
huh i never actually knew that mindbreaker stops exhaustion from "regressing" i tought its gonna run out in the background or smt, thats good to know thx for the info.
I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, but giving the benefit of the doubt: yes, Mindbreaker completely pauses the exhaustion regression for as long as they're touching the gen.
u see my problem isnt abt the chases, it never was, bc if i do find someone i am gonna chase em, its the fact that they can just deny me from chasing them just by prerunning,dropping fog , hiding, etc wasting my precious time in a trial, which everyone knows that time is the most important resource a killer has
So, #3 and #4 are just reiterating that you can't find someone, which, again, isn't a complaint about SB or fog vials, it's just complaining that survivors aren't standing in the open near gens. I don't have any idea what information perks you are running in your build, but, at a minimum, Ultimate Weapon completely bypasses every protection the fog vial offers.
You can also run effectively any aura perk of your choice, and since these survivors aren't getting into chase, they can't be using distortion and fog vials are on a cooldown. So at some point, you're going to be able to see their aura to know where they are or where they are heading.
You also mentioned:
thats only 1 surv out of 4 so while im out there looking for the sneaky bastard the other 3 just sits on a gen
Where, if none of the 4 survivors are hooked then you're likely talking about the very beginning of the game. Lethal Pursuer is, imo, the best perk in the game for cutting out unnecessary downtime for the killer.
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@AdamZ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981997#Comment_3981997
except that it doesn't? vigil just makes the 5 second exhausted to like 2, 3 seconds, meaning by the time i get there they already has sprintburst ready, mind breaker only helps against really greedy survivors that wants to stay on gens till the very last second meaning, any experienced survivor would let go of the gen early once they know the killer has mindbreaker so they have sb ready.
So, they get less of a head start, bare minimum.
More importantly, if you don't bother to chase them, which it sounds like you aren't, then they have to spend at least 24 seconds not touching a gen to get their SB back.
Congratulations, you've reinvented old eruption levels of slowdown.
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@AdamZ said:
Thats cool if u like it, i as a killer main absolutely hate it tho, its mindless, its boring to face, when everyone just preruns u w that setup u can do nothing abt it, u can take 40 sec to try find and catch up, w that survivor, but if u do that 3 gens are going to pop, so lets say u go for another gen, they are just going to do the same thing, so yea it sucks.
sprint burst combined w fog vials and vigil are the most isufferable survivor build i can think of
sprint burst combined w fog vials and vigil are the most isufferable survivor build i can think of
Mindbreaker by itself completely hard counters this.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981181#Comment_3981181
It actually extends all the way up to 16 meters I believe.
Huh, you're right.
I've been using 11m basically since it launched and you're the first person to correct me on that.
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Maybe don't go afk? They just made this massive push to punish people for considering the game to be over prematurely, and the game isn't over until the end game screen.
The anti camp radius is like 11m. This is basically the easiest thing to avoid in the game. And it's entirely within your control.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981095#Comment_3981095
I don’t feel any point if arguing evolves around “it can be breakable, but u have to do sth before” .
Despite unbreakable and ds being meta, they directly exist how they supposed to - counterplay of slugging and tunnelling. And after some nerfs this perks are good and balanced around pub games. While conviction can bring broken events.
Is it that hard make conviction takes 15-20 sec instead of 8 so it won’t punish killers when they obviously didn’t slug??? Because my whole point is that now the max value from this perk is basically when u break the game by bringing build, when killer didn’t even slug, and just decided to prevent easy pallete save or put some pressure. On otz video it was a moment when killer just broke a pallete and person already up. Just stop claiming it’s hard to accomplish. Finish healing (not healing for a whole health state even) isn’t that hard, nothing hard about abusing this perk, and people here provide nerf that will counter only specific scenario when killer can’t pick up because he stuck in animation.
U repeat same every time and avoid direct discuss of moments when it’s clearly unfair and uncountarable. So u either that guy who abuse this perk in exactly same way and try to find an excuse of this perk being fair in such cases, or u simply don’t understand in what cases it’s absolutely game balance breaking. No one here talking about completely removing this perk. Just give more time to avoid situations when people picked them up before animation finished. That’s it. Don’t let to exploit this, that’s all.Someone already posted a video on this forum when person picked himself up for free and escaped, while killer was stuck in oni’s animation and basically wasn’t able to do anything. And people who were saying “just don’t play oni or don’t down in endgame” were the same who complained about ghoul or fog vial nerfs on different posts. And same people here complaining about some bloggers having bias here, that I find ridiculous.
The arrow does not turn, how people say on my native language :/
Despite unbreakable and ds being meta, they directly exist how they supposed to - counterplay of slugging and tunnelling. And after some nerfs this perks are good and balanced around pub games. While conviction can bring broken events.
This is my entire point: What, exactly are these broken events you talk about?
So far, you've only objected to the idea that "but survivors can stand back up and can't be slugged", which is why I push back and say that unbreakable did/does that. In order for conviction to be a problem, then, you need to have a situation where picking yourself up in 8 seconds and then having to go back down again 30 seconds later is substantially more valuable than just getting back up 24 seconds later (with unbreakable). And you have yet to show that.
With a lurking flashlight, you get at least 24 seconds because the killer is already chasing someone else. The extra time doesn't come into play.
On otz video it was a moment when killer just broke a pallete and person already up. Just stop claiming it’s hard to accomplish. Finish healing (not healing for a whole health state even) isn’t that hard, nothing hard about abusing this perk, and people here provide nerf that will counter only specific scenario when killer can’t pick up because he stuck in animation.
Never once have I said this is hard to accomplish, or that it takes skill. It takes an insane amount of investment by the survivor. In fact, it takes basically an entire 4 perk loadout to do that once. And, as I've said before, the tradeoff is that you don't get any anti-tunnel protection (since you aren't guaranteed to heal), you don't get any gen rush ability (so if you aren't chased/chosen by the killer this doesn't do anything), you don't have any chase perks.
The survivor is on the other side of a thrown pallet and the killer has a few seconds extra chase in one very specific case. This is, effectively, a 4 perk version of Smash Hit and you're losing your mind over it.
Is it that hard make conviction takes 15-20 sec instead of 8 so it won’t punish killers when they obviously didn’t slug???
You're ignoring the gigantic drawbacks on this perk. Why would anyone ever use a perk that has an activation requirement, and automatically downs you 30 seconds after using it (which is basically unavoidable), to save 4 or 6 extra seconds over unbreakable by itself?
This would literally make Conviction into "Unbreakable with extra steps" and it would be yet another dead on arrival perk.
or u simply don’t understand in what cases it’s absolutely game balance breaking
Well, so far every example you've given has been exactly the same with unbreakable, or with a chase perk instead of conviction. In fact, you could replace the stack of all 4 perks that are pretty much required for Conviction to work like this with exactly one of Unbreakable, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Head On, or Smash Hit, and the result is not only much more consistent, it's an easier build to deal with situations where Conviction simply isn't going to work out (like, for example, the killer hard tunneling one survivor out and you never get to heal to activate it).
Someone already posted a video on this forum when person picked himself up for free and escaped, while killer was stuck in oni’s animation and basically wasn’t able to do anything.
Good, you saw that. That was the extremely niche situation I was referring to. Here's everything that needed to happen for that to be possible. (If any of these had gone differently, it wouldn't have worked for the survivor):
- Every perk of the 4 they brought was necessary for that outcome:
- Conviction for a fast pickup (there was no one else around, or even in the map)
- Unbreakable (For the even faster 5s pickup)
- Tenacity (otherwise the killer could simply have picked them up at their feet)
- Soul Guard (activated when the survivor stood up, saved them from going back down again)
- The killer (Oni) was at the very end of their power meter. If they had had even just a bit more in their bar, they could have walked forward and picked up the survivor still in their power. (they walk faster than tenacity, and pickup drops them out. He would've had to manually cancelled his power - an error - if it didn't actually run out on its own).
- Be in the end game (because in any other situation, the survivor downs themselves for free in 30 seconds, the killer can do literally anything else in that time)
- Have the exit doors 99'd or fully opened. (opening a door wouldn't been a grab/hit and they would've died)
- Know exactly where the door/hatch is.
- Be lucky enough that their chase ends close enough to the door to actually get out (again, with enough time to open it if it isn't already open).
So, again, if any one of those had gone wrong, that video wouldn't have worked. And it took a survivor getting lucky enough to manage it that people are losing their minds over it. I'm also going to reiterate that the killer being Oni, and them running out of power during the down here was a matter of sheer luck. The survivor would've been picked up if the "ending power" animation hadn't been forced to play out. So if it was nay other killer, or the Oni had just a bit more charge, the survivor would've been picked up , even with everything else going for them in that scenario.
Even in your example, it takes more than the 2.7s blade wipe animation to make this work. And, just to be clear, it takes 5.6 seconds with Unbreakable and Conviction together. They have to somehow manage to force a second action after the blade wipe (pallet break, vault, or ending power) or it won't work at all.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981088#Comment_3981088
The main point of antitumneling or chase perks is making chase longer. Conviction does absolutely same thing.
And u can run conviction, soul guard, unbreakable and decisive strike. Again, this perk provides enough combination excluding genrush only. This “investment” doesn't have counterplay, and here is a problem.
I already provided example of build from killer side. Do u like to see build with perk that also robs opposite side time (like insta DMS that u can’t counter at all on the most progressed gen)? So your waste time will be equal to 1 min of chase + 30 sec in average (or less or more).
Your only argument that it have to be set up in some way. But HOW it counters my argument that still with specific set up the build is basically uncounterable? I don’t know. Nothing should be uncounterable. That's why u have decisive strike or genrush perks. That’s why u can hide in the locker to counter BBQ. That's why u have heal meta to counter anti heal perks.
Conviction? 3 perks and being down while vaulting or in open space when someone has flashlight around. That’s enough for killer simply accepting he has to let u go. Because with 3 perks u can pick u up for 4 seconds.
Sure, it is my argument flat and not your with direct “who cares it’s no skill involved and uncounterable until it takes 3 slot to run to break some game mechanic”
U don't need skill to equip 3 perks, heal teammate and then force down in vaulting animation/close to the locker/ under pallet. U don't need skill to drop yourself in corner and plot twist with no sound. Idk why all of you claiming this build requires specific and hard set up
can run conviction, soul guard, unbreakable and decisive strike
I hate to break it to you, but you can run this combination without conviction at all. It's been around for a very long time (even going back to pre-6.1 DS, when it worked in end game). So this is very, very far from an unwinnable scenario, in fact, killers have been winning against this for years now. DS and unbreakable were both meta, and killers weren't running into "unwinnable matches" like you seem to see here.
I already provided example of build from killer side. Do u like to see build with perk that also robs opposite side time
You made up a scenario that completely ignores the downsides that A) conviction has to have a charge you earn before it can be used, and B) all benefit of the perk is completely undone in 30 seconds by downing yourself again.
Even though your DMS scenario requires a hook, you're deliberately ignoring that the "benefit" isn't being undone automatically. DMS, even in your wildest dreams, isn't giving free gen progress or something for no reason (like getting a free down by picking yourself up by conviction absolutely does).
30 seconds later it's as though the perk didn't even exist, and that's a core and key component your fantasy that's missing entirely. You aren't "losing 30s to chase" by conviction. If you see them pick themselves up, you can leave them alone and they not only won't do anything productive for about the next minute, they actually can't.
But HOW it counters my argument that still with specific set up the build is basically uncounterable?
It's not uncounterable because you angrily claim that it is. It doesn't even activate unless you heal someone else, so right off the bat if you get hard tunneled out of the game the perk is a dead slot. I'm pretty sure anyone with a pulse can figure out tunneling, since I've been told repeatedly that it's "rEqUiReD".
And again, your arguments have nothing to do with conviction, since simply using DS and unbreakable together can create these scenarios. That combo was meta before 6.1 when DS was far stronger, and it's also far from "uncounterable". Especially since both of those perks have exactly and only one use per match (and you still have to have unbreakable to really use conviction mid match, otherwise you're just "still slugged in a different location")
Conviction? 3 perks and being down while vaulting or in open space when someone has flashlight around. That’s enough for killer simply accepting he has to let u go.
Yes. You would have to if they just had unbreakable also, and literally nothing else. You also have the benefit of having two survivors occupied and not on gens, you're likely to get a hook off of the one parking for a flashlight, and the person with conviction not only spent a charge, but you can probably finish your chase and go find them as a free slug somewhere.
Again, that conviction survivor is committed to not doing anything useful for about 60 seconds (30s knowing they be downed and can't heal, and extra the recovering to use unbreakable or wait for help). Conviction adds nothing except free pressure for the killer to this scenario that simply having unbreakable didn't already provide. You're losing your mind over a perk that makes this scenario better for the killer in that case.
Idk why all of you claiming this build requires specific and hard set up
Because you're freaking out over nothing.
With unbreakable I can get myself it of the dying state once, it takes about 30 seconds.
The only benefit if conviction is that it picks you up faster, at the cost of delaying your down by 30 seconds. So the only time you aren't just wasting extra time here (that could be the on gens), even with a friend lurking with a flashlight and DS equipped, is in end game, where you're relying on getting it the exit gate or hatch in those 30 seconds.
You're also pretty much forced to bring at least unbreakable and tenacity in end game because otherwise any killer can finish wiping their blade and pick you up at their feet before you get to the 5s mark to stand up even with conviction. This also requires you to have an open exit gate, that you know where it is and can get to it in under 30 seconds without the killer getting you first. And you might still need soul guard to keep from getting downed again instantly. That's all 4 perk slots for one very specific edge case scenario that may only happen incredibly rarely.
In any other case, especially before the gates are powered, every scenario you bring up is true with unbreakable or, shoot, even no mither. But those aren't, and haven't been issues in years. So, where exactly is the problem with conviction in reality, and not just in your head?
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981084#Comment_3981084
Does it matter, when people abuse it with plot twist/exponential?
good luck to waste your time when survivor got himself up after conviction, used sole guard and u need either waste 30 seconds tracking him or getting down before this 30 sec, so his teammates can finish gen? Good waste of time, as well as dropping this survivor and let him be picked up and healed by teammate.
OP already showed by otz video how exactly u can abuse it, so what’s the point trying to deny it? Henz, how someone already posted here who has much less bias of killer side than otz himself described this perk problematic, they exactly showed why it is and u can find many of such videos.
I’m asking again - do u really wish see same kind of build from the killer? Even if he had some kind of penalty that works as equivalent of being down from survivor?
Again, someone is bringing this, with heavy investment, instead of: anti tunneling perks, chase perks, or "gen rush". But the mindset is "let's nerf it and go back to complaining about those other 3 instead".
This is also pretty easily telegraphed that it's in play since it's the only self-pickup.
And yes, if there was a killer build that completely undid itself after 30 seconds and meant that killers had to bring an entire build that wasn't slowdown, or information, and only functioned in incredibly specific scenarios that relied on your opponent to play into them? Let's go. Let's see how meta that would be (spoiler: it wouldn't).
This is just the flavor of the month for people to complain about (and in this case, have a CC give them their opinion on so they don't have to think for themselves), before we go right back to "gens too fast".
I'm not arguing with otz, or hens. I'm arguing with you. The ideas stand or fall on their own, and right now your argument is flat on it's face (just like conviction after 30 seconds, coincidentally).
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@tes said:
Even if it requires 3 or 4 slots, how it cancel the fact of 0 counterplay?
Do u really wish having same build from killer with DMS + Scourge Hook, but with other third perk that trigger DMS every time on the most progressed gen?
This feels like people who misunderstand how StB works.
You realize that the survivor is broken and is automatically downed again after 30 seconds, right? That's just how the perk works.
I think people are hyper fixated by the quick pickup and completely ignoring the "free down" part of the perk here. Which, really only comes in clutch in the end game when the door is already open.
If you're stretching for analogies: It'd be like if pain res took at least 3 perk slots to run, and then the gen gained back all of its lost progress after 30 seconds and stopped regressing. That sounds pretty bad, or at least very scenario-specific, for the level of investment TBH.
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Oh good, it's not just me.
Autocorrect having a field day
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3981038#Comment_3981038
And it still ends in a down regardless. That's the part I don't get at all after all the back and forth. The perk has a price tag on it.
Exactly. I argued with someone in another thread about this.
They showed a video of a survivor getting an escape with this perk "to deliberate how op it is and needs nerfed immediately".
And they completely refused to acknowledge that, not only did that escape require a build of exactly 4 perks they ran to pull off (UB, conv, tenacity, and soul guard), but it also took about a dozen other factors to align to pull off.
They built for specifically, exactly, and only, one specific scenario (which wasn't gen rushing, or even chase, wasn't "toxic" or "bully") and probably finally got it to work after who knows how many games.
At this point, people are just upset that survivor perks might actually do something, eventually.