AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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You start getting crows after 2 minutes. And aside from chase (which apparently doesn't apply here), or gens (which takes several seconds of working on, but you claim wasn't being done), basically every other "bypass" requires completing a task.
So they could reset the 2 minute timer by opening a chest or cleansing a totem (which are limited and irreversible actions), but simply touching a hex doesn't reset the afk timer unless they break it completely. Finishing healing a health state does too, in case they actually picked up Jane at any point.
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@thrawn3054 said:
Do gens if they camp the hatch. They can either camp the hatch or come after you.
This.
I've only ever had one game that I remember where this killer hard camped hatch and didn't leave. I did a full gen, and once the gen popped he finally closed it.
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Nightlight has always suffered from having a low sample size compared to the population, contributions can be curated by submitters, and submitters tend to be primarily English speaking players. (Which is usually why the "top ten" perks don't reflect the self care meta of the Asia region, as one example)
I feel like it's also suffered a loss in traffic since bhvr now offers official stats directly, so people don't have to take extra steps and go out of their way to get that information from a third party now.
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@nakedcat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938724#Comment_3938724
I see this quote about kill rates being impacted but I wonder if the devs have ever said “if the escape rates are (negatively) impacted we will make balance changes to bring them up accordingly”
I believe they want the general kill rate at 60% but that would also mean they want survivors escaping generally 40% of the time too right? Or are they fine with the escape rate going down but not the kill rate? I’m asking someone more tuned in to this place and these devs than I am
It's hard to say, because we're still kind of at the balancing point. The devs have spent 3 years since 6.1 deliberately increasing kill rates, and only just a few months ago started that they felt they'd hit their goal overall when they gave out stats.
As a live service game, every chapter can potentially affect those kill rates, but I don't think they have too much of a problem if the kill rate is a bit over their expectations. We currently have several killers sitting over the 60% KR individually and they don't seem to be rushing to do anything there. The only killer who was nerfed even partially for that has been SM, and that was a multitude of issues and also not handled well by bhvr.
I think if escape rates dropped too low they would do something. But I think they don't seem to mind if k kill rates are a bit high, and slow to act of escape rates drop too much.
You can kind of see this with the qol phases this year. They announced many of the changes that would impact survivors first (go next, anti hiding, spawning together), then might bring the escape rates back up a bit with phase 2 (anti tunnel, anti camp, anti slug, the effectiveness and details of which are still unannounced).
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I just think: "If they're healing, then they are not working on generators". It's extra time in my pocket, which often comes in handy later on.
Agreed. Please, heal all you want. Do anything except generators, and voluntarily.
We had these same kinds of posts before the circle and medkit nerfs, and then afterwards people went straight back to complaining about "people aren't healing and just working on gens" as if that wasn't the blindingly obvious result of nerfing healing.
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@Disco said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979919#Comment_3979919
I know you're right about camping being a waste of time usually the only problem is if I go looking for survivors 50m from the hook, can't find anyone and they get a free save and disappear - that's tantamount to losing the game
50m from the hook is your BBQ range you said. So you know there's a survivor there.
I'm not sure why this suddenly switches to you not being able to find anyone, from "I can see someone working on a gen with BBQ" in the original post.
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So, the killer is the only reason survivors have to do anything other than gens. If you see someone on a gen, going after then means that gens progress stops. So going and pressuring them means gen progress slows down automatically, and you are already pursuing your next hook.
by the time I got to one of them someone else could get a safe hook save
So, this, to me, is looking at this backwards (and I feel a lot of killers do this). Let them unhook. You already know that a survivor is going to have to leave a gen and unhook, and you really don't have to be there to monitor that.
The reason this is backwards is that you shouldn't care one bit about a "free unhook" because that's the whole reason that chases are pressure. This is one person in time out on hook and another is forced to come rescue. That's just how it works.
The real question here, is why should the survivor get "free gen progress" because you're waiting at a hook, supervising a survivor who already can't work on gens, or waiting around for a second survivor who also isn't doing gens.
Camping here, especially when you have another survivors location, just means they can do gens "for free" while you do effectively nothing near a hook.
Instead, if you go chase, you automatically punish if they try to "greed" by waiting to unhook, and can possibly even have two survivors hooked at the same time (which, is a scenario that either forces then to stop all gen progress entirely or basically snowballs you into winning right there).
Also, 30m is less than 8 seconds travel, assuming you simply walk and aren't in a killer with any kind of travel ability. Less, since you can hear gens being worked on, and, since you also just finished a chase nearby, should have seen either a gen with progress, a survivor who was working a gen, or scratch marks.
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I mean, sure. But hiding aura, being quieter, and removing scratch marks isn't nearly as helpful if the killer can just see your character. It doesn't even create that "moment of hesitation" at that point.
Having your item countered by "having their monitor turned on" isn't really making a strong case for a supposed "escape tool".
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979142#Comment_3979142
We either admit that items from survivors can be balance breaking bringing them the main trial advantage basically for doing nothing (even less than m1), or we admit that items aren't such a big deal so it doesn't matter are u losing it or not.
In both cases, OG FD either equals to lightborn (counter specific thing, but u sacrifice whole slot instead bringing regress/chase perk), or, that’s kinda situational perk that doesn't bring much value without lich’s combination.
Tbh, why perks from other side should give u something else than disadvantage?
Or we can admit that items are a game design feature that the system is balanced around survivors having. A game balance, I'll add, that includes survivors dying 60% of the time.
You were literally just in another thread saying this:
I’m also always question myself, why some people trying to impose how some people have to play. Like “don’t bring this perks” “don’t genrhsh” “don’t tunnel” “don’t do saves or play in sfw”.
So why are you now here, effectively saying "you aren't allowed to bring items"?
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978588#Comment_3978588
Now apply that to killer.
sure, happy to
It’s really not that hard, right?
If I play badly as survivor — go too YOLO, misjudge something, get too greedy or take risky plays, mess up my chase — then yup, the consequence is that I’ll probably die that round.Sure, I can still try to recover, give it 100% in the next chase, especially if I notice my team is actually trying... but in the end: I don’t know how long I’ll last. I don’t know how long I can keep playing clean. If I make a mistake — it happens. Sorry, team. I just hope I bought you enough time.
Same goes for killer:
If I misjudge things, mess up my chases, lose too many mindgames, fall for dumb stuff — the natural consequence is that I’ll probably lose that match.
That’s just how it is, right?But you don't. You're happy to demand better from your survivor gameplay, but NOT from your killer gameplay. So you instead resort to the argument that you -cannot- win, even though you obviously can.
I’m not demanding anything — who am I to make demands? I don’t expect anything from survivors or killers. Play however you want. Go for it. Have fun with whatever works for you.
But you also can’t expect to win if there are a lot of misplays — whether you’re playing killer or survivor. That’s just how it is.
I mean, at the end of the day, DBD is a PvP game.
I’ll still give someone a headshot in tarkov or hunt:showdown even if they’re clearly memeing.One.The hatch.
Everything else has nothing to do with 'misplays'. Getting tunneled, camped or slugged are not things that are in the survivor's control, and therefor they cannot be their 'misplays'. They are things that the killer unilaterally decides.
And no, going down is not a 'misplay' either. You are not supposed to hold chase indefinitely. That's why infinites were removed, why Bloodlust is still here.
kinda sweet that you brought up hatch… <3 because, well… hatch is actually one of the few things I do still have quite a bit of control over as killer.
Hatch is something I can deny you in most matches. If I want it, it’s usually mine. That situation tends to lean heavily in the killer’s favor.
I was more thinking about other stuff, though.But yup, totally agree:
If I tunnel you, it means I want you. I’m not half-committing.
You can’t really control that — you’re gonna go down, just like in any regular chase.
The only difference is, you’re starting that chase already injured (which sucks for you and benefits me),
and the tunnel just keeps dragging you closer to death hook.So at that point, it’s super important your team is doing gens — or at least trying to take hits or do something.
It won’t fully stop what’s happening, but it can buy a lot of valuable time.
And your team really needs to use that time while you’re the one getting tunneled.Slugging and proxy camping, though?
You can usually deal with that a bit better — there's more you can do in those situations compared to tunneling.In the end, it’s a matter of how much your team pushes forward, because the timer is ticking.
Gu... I've seen the whole 50/50 balance and more comeback mechanics thing mentioned multiple times in this thread already — and I was specifically referencing that in my comment.
(You can scroll through the replies I was responding to if you're unsure what I meant.)For example,..
“Fully agree with you, there should be catch-up mechanics implemented to prevent the easy snowballs.”
Or this line:
“In theory, these snowball matches would be much less frequent if the kill rate target was a fair 50%.”
xcept 50/50 balance, comeback mechanisms and 'more of this, more of that' aren't on the menu.
The devs blatantly came out and stated that they balance the game to make survivors lose more and this is, what, the second thread in YEARS, and it's not even arguing for 50/50!
The only thing people have been asking for is anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-slug, to limit the way in which the killer can just bar people from gameplay and ruin the game for everyone else. Survivors have been losing for ages, and the only complaint is about HOW they lose, not THAT they lose.
I keep hearing that survivors have been losing for years.
But whenever I ask people for their stats, it often turns out they have a solid 50–60% escape rate.
I mean… maybe I’m just asking the “wrong” people, I don’t know.But yup, i mean.. as i said already.. stats don’t tell the full story in my opinion — they don’t show what actually happens during the match.
And sure… anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-slug — I understand the desire for that.
But then… where is the killer supposed to get their pressure from?
Or is pressure only allowed in insta-down lobbies now?t's a motte-and-bailey.
First you try to take the more reasonable position that the game is unwinnable when survivors play absolutely immaculately. But then you try to swap out the 'immaculate survivor team' for a 'halfway decent group'.
And that's where your argument becomes fallacious, because while the top 1% of swiffers can be argued to be unbalanced, possibly even 'unbeatable', you can't make the same argument for 'halfway decent groups', since the vast majority of them get routinely stomped. We -know- survivors, across the board, are losing the majority of their matches. Even the high MMR 4-man swiffers of nightmares do not average an escape rate over 50%.
But you don't need them to, because you set up the perfect DBD gods in a hypothetical 4-man team of doom and then go on to suggest that Bucko & Pals with 300 hours between them are exactly as problematic.
It's a motte-and-bailey. Flipper between two different positions and pretend they're the same.
The 'halfway decent group' is not a problem for a competent killer.
First you try to take the more reasonable position that the game is unwinnable when survivors play absolutely immaculately. But then you try to swap out the 'immaculate survivor team' for a 'halfway decent group'.
That’s not exactly what I said.
what I said was (to quote myself):
But yup, I’ll say it too:
It’s physically impossible to win if the survivor team plays perfectly.
Zero mistakes.
But…
nobodydoes that. No one.
Not even Team Eternal, since you brought them up as an example.
And that’s exactly where killer have their chance — they have stronger tools to
capitalizeon mistakes.
I’m totally fine admitting that if a survivor team plays 100%perfect, , I’ve got no shot.But that just… doesn’t happen.
Everyone makes mistakes. I make them as killer — and so do survivors.So yipp I'm pressing
Readyagainst Team Eternal on the current state. (Yep, I’m from EU too.)(cuz i knew, - mistakes can happen. and atm i can caitalize)
But with all the stuff that’s being asked for lately —
more 50/50 balance, more comeback mechanics, more of this, more of that…
and then throw in anti-slug, anti-tunnel, and whatever else is coming…I also said that I’d currently hit ready against any team. For now. In the current state of the game.
Because — and I’ve said this before — killers can still heavily capitalize on team mistakes.
But that includes all the stuff a lot of survivors don’t like: tunneling, camping, slugging.And my final point was this:
If these upcoming changes really go through — where killers can’t tunnel, camp, or slug effectively anymore, and they don’t get anything in return — then killers will be powerless.
And we’ll be forced to just sit there and watch even "mediocre, average teams" escape.
Maybe hope for 1–2 kills at best.your answer to this was just:
But the second the devs turn their attention to survivors, 'killers get nothing!'.
That's still a terrible argument, because the entirety of the past couple of years, that massive care package IS the compensation for the upcoming changes.
Prior to 6.1, it was generally considered acceptable to buff killers in exchange for getting rid of tunnelling, camping and slugging. Then 6.1 rolled around, we got the killer buff part, and we never got the compensatory anti-tunnel, anti-camp, anti-slug that was supposed to come with it. We got slap-on-the-wrist basekit BT and a NERF, of all things, to what was at the time the ONLY anti-tunnel.
The entire washing list of killer buffs were supposed to be balanced out by anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-camp, but those changes were delayed. Now we're finally (potentially) getting the compensation that survivors were supposed to get.
It's like two kids both being promised a present, kid A gets theirs a week early, and then when kid B finally gets theirs, kid A throws a tantrum that B got something and 'they never did!'
You're the one ripping things out of context. You can't argue that these changes are being made against a blank slate and just ignore multiple years of shifting the balance further in favour of killers, just so you can demand extra goodies when survivors finally get parity.
Uh, what you’re waiting for has already happened a long time ago?
all of that actually happened—just like BHVR promised. They never said they would completely remove tunneling, camping, or slugging. BHVR delivered what they said they would.
Patch 6.1 came out in July, and pretty early on, the promised anti-tunnel change arrived in the form of free bt. Later on, the anti-camp mechanic—the self-unhook near the hook—was added as well.
This already happened ages ago.
Everything that was promised at that point has already long made its way into the game.
That is proven by literally nothing, and all data and statistics point in the opposite direction. What you're talking about is forum killer dogma. It's a story with nothing to back it up, and no one is allowed to question it.
proof 1:
normal "not this good average" group.kinda meme perks,.. No impressive chases, no top 1% player performance you like to lean on. Michaela makes a huge mistake by giving insane double pressure with a down right near the hook.
Yup, slugging not allowed, right? Camping neither? And tunneling definitely not. Yup. how so?2.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN7lU_orSMA
good SOLOQ lobby..
Not many mistakes on the survivor side, but got heavily hit by the killer-sided event mode + a really, really bad survivor map + in the end an overcommitment on the cover on the Sable.
3)
Super close draw. It would’ve been a win if David hadn’t wasted so much time with the whole “I chase you, killer” stuff and instead focused on gens after a certain point.
That means the game didn't get harder at all, you're just not left with any survivors at your own skill level because they all got 'balanced' out of the game.
Skill level? DBD isn’t rocket science. Eventually, almost everyone in the lobby knows the important stuff, just hopes for a good map + good RNG, a lucky win or loss in a 50/50, some advantage for their side—and just grinds it out.
By improving.Or, potentially, by going up against survivors of their own skill level again once they return to the game.
Either way, you may have to deal with losing the occasional match. But at least it won't be as bad as the devs saying you -should- lose the majority of your matches, and people on the forums then telling you that you should lose -even more-.
Sure… you can always improve.
But skill in DBD just isn’t rewarded that much.
What’s the point of perfecting Huntress crossmap shots if you get no real value out of them and the survivor is already back on their feet by the time you get there?DBD, on both sides, is more about efficiency and pressure than raw "skill".
I’ve been playing pretty actively since almost the release — +10,000 h —
so what kind of survivors am I supposed to face that truly “match my skill level,” just so I’m allowed to have an opinion on whether anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-camp, or a general shift toward a more 50/50 state is good for the game ?At what point do I have the right to form an opinion about the fact that the stats are difficult — not because of lack of “survivor goodies” — but rather because of what I personally see as the core issue (which I’ve already outlined in this thread): the matchmaking system being far too lenient or in some cases outright non-functional?
Like I already tried to explain in my post about the 25+25+25+25 vs. 100 from the killer's side...
and no one is allowed to question it.
Sure, anyone can ask. Go ahead — why not? Just ask.
But if you say “It’s a story with nothing to back it up” … then what exactly do you want from my side? What are you expecting? Just ask. Ready to share.Mind showing me how you win against people who kind of understand the game — without using any pressure tools whatsoever?
I'm just briefly going to respond to this part:
Mind showing me how you win against people who kind of understand the game — without using any pressure tools whatsoever?
So, your falling into this "modern, 2025 dbd killer" mindset here, where you seem to think the only possible way to apply pressure is by either camping, tunneling, or slugging, and that somehow there are no other options.
That's just not the case.
"Pressure" is basically just giving the survivors something to do, so that they can't just do what they want to do (gens). For slugging, people seem to understand this, since the slug requires someone to come and rescue and, generally speaking, the killer isn't just standing over the slug doing nothing. In most "legitimate slugging" scenarios, the killer leaves the slug and chases another nearby survivor. And the slug is "pressure".
But for some reason people mistakenly think that camping and tunneling are also optimal pressure. It's pressure on one person, yes, but not on the team. The camping or tunneling killer isn't leaving the survivor in time out on a hook and going to push someone off gens, they're standing around doing effectively nothing and hoping that the survivor team is either uncoordinated or inexperienced and panics.
Some teams, though, will let the killer stand around doing nothing near the hook and power through gens unhindered. And they can do that because all of the pressure in a camping or tunneling scenario is all on one person. The game becomes a race to see if survivors can finish 3 or 4 gens before the killer gets 3 hooks to eliminate someone.
Even if you completely removed camping, tunneling, and slugging from the game entirely (which I highly doubt that the phase 2 anti- features will come even close to that), you can still leave the hook, and chase someone off of a gen.
This is generally called "map pressure". You have one in chase, one in hook, and one going for rescue. And if you get a second down quickly enough, then all gen progress stops while the survivors try to recover.
The fact that this was how people used to play before 6.1, and is now something that people don't even think of (like your comment) tells me just how much the player mindset has changed over time.
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@Emeal said:
It sets a dangerous precedent, because it teaches the community if they keep yelling and screaming BHVR will capitulate.
Killswitches should only be used if something is a demonstrable problem, BHVR was calmly observing if their stats would prove Survivors would be getting any advantage from this. But the community would not have any of that, they felt hurt that someone might could have gotten an advantage and they would not stand for that.
What this means is, that every time in the future if something is bugged even if it is benign the whole feature must be Killswitched because of the ghosts of advantage is plaguing the minds of the users, which means every feature is probably deadlocked at release.
Though I dont hope BHVR will meaningfully change the Killswitch Process to cater to unproven advantages, that would be absurd and destroy the game instantly. All major Killers have a bug or two that could give an advantage in some situations, like Dracula its possible for a Survivor to get hit twice by the fire attack if the connection is bad. It happens very rarely, but nono killswitch it now.
What I do hope they do is that they allow their community managers to be more clear about the specific Killrates/ Winrates and Pickrates on a given problem, it would be great for me, because I respond well to stats. Other people might not, people might still be frustrated about problems that isn't happening. Which is somehow desperately close to real life politics.
The message to BHVR should be clear, tell us clearly if a bugged perk is performing too well on diffrent mmr levels, as that should be a clear indication that it should be killswitched.
So I'll start by saying that I don't necessarily disagree, but there are a few things to consider in this case also:
Killswitches should only be used if something is a demonstrable problem, BHVR was calmly observing if their stats would prove Survivors would be getting any advantage from this. But the community would not have any of that, they felt hurt that someone might could have gotten an advantage and they would not stand for that.
True. However, that's not anything that was said through official channels, at least not with this Streetwise issue. I don't necessarily have a problem with them "gathering more data into an issue", but they never said that, or used that in response to community feedback (in this example).
So bringing this up in their defense is really putting credit where it isn't due. The main problem here was their communication and handling of the issue almost entirely. So if they had said what you said initially, that they're "looking into it, but need more data before we take action (and kill switching it will remove that possibility," then yeah, it would've been a different story.
But that's not what happened. Instead, we got official responses basically telling people "calm down. there are bigger problems you guys aren't even talking about. it's not that big of a deal", "it doesn't meet our criteria", and "we should've never told you the kill switch even existed."
So, officially being dismissive, downplaying concerns, not even acknowledging feedback, and using some incredibly vague "criteria" that has never appeared to be consistent (even for soft lock/crash level issues).
So, could they have handled this better? Absolutely.
Would doing what you said have been a better response (by saying "we need more time/data")? Most certainly.
Did they do any of that or deserve credit for that? No.
Did that lack of response, and the actual response they gave fan the flames to make this issue louder across the board? One hundred percent.
The message to BHVR should be clear, tell us clearly if a bugged perk is performing too well on diffrent mmr levels, as that should be a clear indication that it should be killswitched.
I could see there being an argument that "the time it took to find, open a chest, and repeat this process was similar to the time on gens otherwise". So it's possible that the overall impact of the bug on match outcome, or even kill rates, was possibly minimal.
But there's also a pretty big difference between a 90 second gen, and 60 seconds of "doing something else" that results in a 30 second gen (or so), even if the numbers are about the same in total. If there was a similar thing where the killer could, I dunno, open a locker 15 times but then the next hit was an insta-down, it would still feel pretty bad even if the total chase time was roughly the same.
But again, this wasn't the communication they gave us either, this is all just speculation on our part. Not unrealistic, but also not the stance they decided to take in talking about it.
It sets a dangerous precedent, because it teaches the community if they keep yelling and screaming BHVR will capitulate.
Unfortunately, we are way, way beyond "dangerous precedent" territory on this. (Some) people have had this mindset since about 6.1.0 and nearly every patch since with balance changes. There have been many, many examples of things that were changed (mostly nerfed) due to "feedback" either immediately after release, or directly from PTB before hitting live.
There are, unfortunately, many people who not only see this as a precedent, but feel entitled to making changes they don't like whenever new content is released. This cycle started with things like Ruin, Tinkerer, Dead Hard, and DS before 6.1 (and, truly, some things did need to be adjusted there), but it's now become the norm for people to scream early, loudly, and often with the intention that BHVR will change their minds.
The most recent biggest examples of this being MFT (and hope stacking) being "game-breaking", and then when BHVR actually took that to heart and wanted to remove haste stacking across the board, the same voices were screaming for them to change their mind again. Which they did. So we're not in "potentially problematic" territory, this is more "this is what some parts of the community expect now, and they will scream as loudly and often as possible with the expectation that doing so will affect the game balance."
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Look at the stats im sure they are well above what they should be
If the stats are higher than they should be, that had nothing to do with DC's.
BHVR already ignores any game where a disconnect occurs and doesn't include it in stats. So what you see with "official kill rates" is after they've already tossed out the results from games with any disconnect at all, even if it's just one player.
The "player experience" kill rate is likely a bit higher than the official kill rate, since an early "give up" or "go next" survivor disconnect basically means the other 3 are stuck in a losing game, and none of those kills are counted in official stats.
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@kaoraku said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978301#Comment_3978301
I really don't understand why you bring that up there. And why only from the killer side. The same exact mentality is there on survivor side, when they think they deserve to get out. They deserve hatch, they deserve escape, the killer shouldn't hook them 3 times and such.
But that is really irrelevant in that thread I think.
I think giving hatch will not really impact the big picture, but definitely impact YOUR mmr, since you will kill only 3 survivor even tho you could kill 4, so you will get worst opponents.
And also I think killers should give hatch only in some special cases. When somebody deserved, because their team tried to kill them. Or when they were funny. Or something like this. Not always especially 'cause survivors will think they have the right to get hatch as the last ones. I saw so many times they flaming me to not give it to them… Like they would give me free kills just for fun…
Because the thread topic is about killers giving hatch, and why they should manipulate statistics?
I've had two replies now to this. One person claiming that my comment is off topic, and now yours which is seemingly offended that I'm not going off topic to talk about things that aren't in this post.
If you want to create a topic about survivors being entitled, go ahead, since that's also a thing for some people. But that's not really what this post is about, since it's directly taking about killers.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978400#Comment_3978400
Yup, you know I’m agreeing with your point here. I totally do. I gave you 100% right on that. Like I said before: stats don’t matter to me at that point. My personal match outcome is way more important. Yup, you’re right.
What you quoted wasn’t even a direct quote to you, but a reply to the idea that I take the game too seriously. Maybe I do.
I just explained why I personally take those situations seriously — because if, by some miracle, all killers suddenly decided “let’s change the stats and always give a chance for hatch/gate” (which I know won’t happen) — in that hypothetical case, it would just make even more people play for their personal escape an surv side, making the hatch/gate an even bigger topic issue again.
Killers might get faster rmatches/maybe manipulated stats, but would that really improve the survivor lobbies overall?
What you quoted wasn’t even a direct quote to you, but a reply to the idea that I take the game too seriously.
Then I'm really not sure why you quoted my post then said this immediately after. In basically every forum that's understood that you're responding to me directly.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/453172/why-killers-allways-should-not-give-hatch
I always go for my 4K — no “3 kills is enough” mindset, no settling for less.
That said, I play completely independent of stats or any idea of “manipulating” them to make things look better or worse.
It’s the devs’ job to treat things like hatch — which already counts as a draw in MMR and is often just a free escape — as what they actually are.
Whether or not it affects the stats isn’t my problem. I’m here to win matches, not to skew numbers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3978301#Comment_3978301
Uw. But what you’re bringing up goes way too off-topic and dives into mindsets and situations that have nothing to do with the actual question — whether or not you decide to give hatch in a match you’ve already won.
Or?
what you’re bringing up goes way too off-topic and dives into mindsets and situations that have nothing to do with the actual question
Quite the opposite in fact.
My entire point is that people will care more about their personal match outcome than some statistic. And I'm completely, 100% correct there.
Basically all of your responses in this thread confirm this also: you say repeatedly that you feel entitled to the 4k and won't give hatch no matter what, which I even say is going to be the common response.
Mentality is the entire reason this "give hatch for statistics manipulation" thing doesn't hold water.
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I mean, while this is theoretically true, it would take incredibly large numbers of killers (like most of them across the player base) doing this consistently at every opportunity to have any noticeable impact.
The are two major factors that directly clash with your points that prevent this from happening:
- The "I'm not responsible for your fun" mindset.
- Killers care more about winning, especially winning "harder", in the moment, than they do about some arbitrary statistic.
I'll also add that, while this isn't all killer players, there are an awful lot of entitled players who simply expect buffs no matter what. That they deserve to 4k every game, and if they aren't able to, even once, that means the game *must be* survivor sided and killer needs buffs no matter what the statistics say.
Those players think they are entitled to both, and "shouldn't have to make sacrifices for the buffs they clearly deserve already".
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Streetwise does not meet the kill switch criteria.
This kill switch system has been so inconsistently used since it's inception, and they have never clarified what this criteria is.
Whatever counts as "criteria" is apparently highly subjective and surely must involve an element of RNG like "drawing exactly and only the ace of spades from this deck of cards".
There are much worse bugs right now that no one is asking me about that affect this a lot worse.
So what? Kill switch all of them then.
Is there some kind of limit to these things that prevents their use? Does using this feature require 10 pounds of moon rocks or something that we aren't able to easily replace and are highly valuable or something?
no one should have been told about the kill switch.
I'm not sure how they think they could ever use this without people knowing or at least understanding that this exists.
Call it whatever you want: "disabled feature", "temporarily unavailable", or "kill switch", at some point they'd "effectively remove something from available play" and people would ask them to do it again for something else that isn't working.
This is either semantics, or they think we're just idiots that literally have no object permanence. Nurse? Wow, a new killer and it's not even a new chapter! We've never seen this before today!
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@4thdslip said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3977073#Comment_3977073
This issue is notably still a problem with Twins, and we only have a few weeks to find out if it's still on Wesker in his 2v8 version, or if they finally fixed it the third time around.
Well that's annoying. I don't play twins, personally, but I very vividly remember a couple games as survivor where the twins killer got stuck.
You know it's bad when the survivors are trying everything they can think of to maybe bring the killer back into the game before just giving up finishing gens to go next.
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This is a stupid reason to not use the kill switch.
A bug like this that is localized to a single perk should just be switched off until they can fix it.
This isn't something like "an issue with chests" that I might be able to see being "hard or impossible to disable", it's one perk, and this is the entire reason the kill switch was installed.
It was the same thing with merciless storm, but just because you screwed up and didn't kill switch something like that back then isn't a reason to keep avoiding it. At least learn from those mistakes and do better this time.
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They couldn't even be consistent with effectively the same bug between different killers:
Nurse had an issue where blinking into grabbing a survivor off a gen caused the nurse player to not be able to interact and soft locked the killer. Couldn't move, use abilities, nothing, and just stuck in the grab animation until the game ended. Nurse was kill switched for about 6 weeks for them to fix it.
Twins had a nearly identical issue, where something about switching between Victor and Charlotte would occasionally cause the killer to soft lock, not be able to move or interact, and just stuck until the game ended.
This has happened to the twins twice. The first time they were broken for 3 months. Neither time were the twins kill switched.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976234#Comment_3976234
i love how 60%killrate=killer OP adepts dont realize that 60% killrate means slightly less than 50% winrate for the killer if we go by the only metric devs have for the win - MMR system and win being 3/4k.
meanwhile according to this very system survivors win anytime they escape in exit gates and draw if they get hatch. there are multipliers, but win is a win for that system regardless.
it's not "1v1v1v1v1" like you'd like to claim, it's 1v4 for killer where they only win if they kill 3/4+ survivors and 1v1 for the survivor.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IRICD91886D7/image.png
so yeah, killrates do need to be 60%, even slightly above to average into proper winrate for killer.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YIBMPJT6YD7W/image.png
on a side note, here's the only available big sample of data on kill count distribution. ~45% killer winrate. I think real average stats would be closer to 48-52% at best, hardly more.
how many of these 3ks the survivor made it in exit gates? I think a decent amount, but Im not going to make any conclusions, just some food for thought.
survs win way more than they'd like to claim.
Nightlight stats have been way, way off since at least the abandon feature was implemented. Mandy even confirmed that on these forums.
Nightlight in particular has been counting the abandons as escapes and artificially lowers the kill rate on that site as a result.
The stats for about 3 years before "abandon" were consistently about 35% 0-1k, 50% 3-4k, and about 15% 2k.
Which, honestly having killers "win" about 50% more often than survivors is also about what you'd expect from a base goal of having survivors die 50% more than escaping. Which is exactly what a 60% kill rate, and this 40% escape rate is.
Everything about DbD is slanted toward killers currently, kills, wins, and balance in general. And the devs have outright said that's the design goal. Not balance, deliberately for a "horror feel" and because they picked an arbitrary number to chase.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975446#Comment_3975446
>any fictional scenario
>i stop to kick a gen
its okay to admit to being wrong, you dont need to double down on gaslighting
I'm not sure where the "fictional" came from, since I didn't say that.
You're honestly going with "it takes me 30 seconds to kick a gen?" in this conversation?
Cause, again, when gens are still up you can leave the conviction survivor completely alone and they'll just go be a slug somewhere else, because that's how the perk works. No killer action needed there.
I thought you were complaining about end game, but since you can't make a coherent argument aside from angrily screeching that the perk seems to function in some very, niche and specific situations, I guess I'll have to just leave you alone with your entitled rage on this one.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975250#Comment_3975250
comparing a perk that lets survivors delay a hook by up to 30 seconds if the killer doesnt instapick to bloodwarden, literal meme perk is wild
At this point you're literally just complaining that the perk has any function in any scenario.
You went from the video, which is end game (like blood warden), then shifted the goal post to "being forced to slug"... So if your already chasing another survivor for 30 seconds to be actually forced to slug, it sounds like the conviction player is just downing themselves for free while you chase another player.
Sounds like you're choosing actively to not hook in the second scenario here.
That's called map pressure, and having two survivors occupied at once. And one of them is literally a free down by their own perk if you leave them alone.
The survivor perk worked once, with a full build dedicated to it, in a highly specific situation that the player brought all of that for. You are really, really upset that this perk does literally anything at all. That's the punch line.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975241#Comment_3975241
Stuff with conviction is only rare because it just came out and people haven't completely caught on to it yet
It's like the situation with flip flop power struggle, it took a while for people to figure out how busted the combo is if you just have one other person be near you when you go down and Conviction just adds fuel to this problem
Comparing this to flip flop and power struggle is kinda my point. If you get hit with this as the killer, it's entirely your fault. The counter play to this is to just not walk through a pallet, and hooks are so prevalent on tiny maps that you absolutely can do that.
FF/PS is also rare for similar reasons: it takes more than one perk to execute, it takes a very specific scenario to work at all (dead zones and weak pallets, which are now everywhere, pretty much destroy this, and the killer has to play into it).
Every single time I walk through a pallet, I say out loud "power struggle?" because I know how rare it is to pull off, and I'm deliberately doing something to play into it. I've been hit with it exactly once.
Conviction takes an entire build (4 perks, like we saw), and only does that effectively in end game. That's why blood warden is a good example. You aren't going to see this often, especially since this is the new thing and people are testing use cases. If a perk takes that much investment, cooperation with the killer, and requires the entire match to pay it in a specific way, that's the definition of a niche perk. Not meta.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975083#Comment_3975083
Its a bug that you kinda have to be aware of doing it do get alot of value from it. Unfortunately for ppl purposefully doing it, its kinda gamebreaking. Its kind of like how ppl could use flashlights without being aware of the flashlight locker exploit, but killswitching flashlights til the bug was fixed was still a good call.
It boggles my mind sometimes that they can be super reluctant to use the kill switch when it's really a pretty obviously correct call.
If your bug/issue is localized to a single perk, and that issue is noticeably impactful, then use the thing already. If it's fixed in a patch in a few days, then ok, it's only disabled for a few days.
The twins soft lock bug (twice) and merciless storm also fall into this category for me. Like, why does the switch even exist sometimes?
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975241#Comment_3975241
killers slug people for less than 10 seconds so rarely indeed
So, no. You don't have an argument against what I said.
Because, by itself, you can just instantly down the person I've the blade wipe animation completes, or just pick them up before they have time.
You can tunnel them out first and the perk never activates at all. Or camp. Or they may just not get gens done at all without "gen rush".
Because unless the doors are actively open, the survivor downs themself for you, for free. While you do literally anything else (like, for example, pressuring the other survivor nearby).
I found a better analogy: this is like blood warden. You build for it, the stars have to align, and your opponent has to basically play into it for it to work. It's not common, but when it finally, finally works there's a payoff.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975229#Comment_3975229
its wild how much mental gymnastics conviction defenders go through instead of just admitting the perk is unhealthy and broken
oh stars need to aling, this is just impossible, never happens, the killer just needs to go out of their way to kick a generator or check for save, wild, is impossible and can never happen
I never said impossible, I said very rare.
Which part of what I said is incorrect? Because it appears to be like you're simply upset that this survivor had a strategy, built an entire kit around it, and finally got it to function... And that's somehow completely unconscionable for you.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3975174#Comment_3975174
tomorrow they make a perk that makes it impossible for survivors to have more than one survivor on generators at once and label it as anti genrush perk and say that it's completely fair and survivors should just adapt, stop splitting gens and quit complaining. they get told they just need to bring sabo, play for bodyblocks and that's completely viable and healthy way of winning.
do you complain about that or you also take the stance ""killer brings the perks against genrushing survivors"?
judging by your post history, you complained about less so I doubt.
btw, fun and balanced perk, totally deserved to nullify this skilled tactical feed lara committed, god forbid I dare kick high prog last generator these people are trying to complete
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SJ2P3JRQAP22/conviction-3-gif.gif
So, I'm not sure where this tantrum comes from, but...
This scenario takes exactly 4 perks to run: unbreakable for the speed, conviction for speed and pickup, tenacity so you can't just grab them at your feet and drop it off power that way, and soul guard for the endurance.
Without any single one of those perks, this wouldn't work.
On top of that, the exit gates have to be either already opened or 99'd, as well as immediately available on the map. And if this was literally any killer other than oni, the killer could probably blade wipe and still be able to pick up before conviction comes up.
Literally the stars had to align for this to be possible. This isn't going to be a meta by a long shot.
And the other things to consider here too, is that this is at a pretty steep cost. The survivor has zero anti tunnel, no anti camping, no gen rush. This build does not function at all if they're the first one found, and they down themselves automatically if it isn't end game.
This is basically like someone posting an orbital strike from the huntress and saying it needs nerfed because they managed to get lucky and make their long shot strategy pay off once.
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"it's your own fault if you get slugged. if you don't want to be slugged, bring the perks to avoid that"
Survivor brings the perks, against a slugging killer
"Wait, no"
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974309#Comment_3974309
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974317#Comment_3974317
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974314#Comment_3974314
My stance is we currently have A LOT of innocent players that are punished because survivors are bypassing DC penalties. That should matter.
People should be caring that ragequitting punishes innocent players too.
Interesting then, that you also claim that the "go next" disconnect isn't changing player counts.
It would seem that the removal of the 4% was very much sufficient to solve this issue. And the extra measure of "go next dc penalty" isn't actually needed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974279#Comment_3974279
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974288#Comment_3974288
This still doesn't explain why we had so many evidence videos of the AFK crow punishments, but so few videos of Go Next punishments.
And steamcharts still has a normal volume of players, so there isn't a large percentage of players that "are afraid to play survivor".
A) shifting the goal post.
B) I'm sorry you don't have the notarized, ink signed contracts from first hand eye witness accounts that you seem to want
C) quantity is basically irrelevant for almost everyone in this thread (except you, apparently). If "anti tunneling" charged the killer auric cells when it "detected some very strict version of tunneling" but it only happened twice to people who posted, would that make it ok? Because for me, and most everyone else, the answer is no. But your answer appears to be "it's fine, because not enough people have been impacted".
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3974215#Comment_3974215
The Go Next system isn't falsely punishing people anywhere near as often as most people's anti-slugging ideas would.
Look how rare the evidence is for the Go Next false flags. There are people in this forums thread, that would absolutely jump at the chance to prove the Go Next system isn't working properly, but instead of giving their own evidence, they just comment on what happened to other people.
We certainly had a lot of videos floating around the internet of people getting AFK crows, when the anti hiding update happened. So why aren't we seeing a lot of videos floating around the internet, of people getting falsely flagged by the Go Next system?
The Go Next system isn't falsely punishing people anywhere near as often as most people's anti-slugging ideas would.
I've seen many ideas about how anti slugging could be implemented, but I've never, ever, seen anyone say that the killer should receive a dc penalty for slugging.
Trying to compare these two things is wild, especially since you're not even trying to consider the consequences or severity.
You're basically, unironically, trying to imply (without directly saying it) that "yeah, it's bad that people are getting dc penalties inappropriately, but it could be worse: they could actually lose out on a kill".
The fact that this is punishing the person behind the keyboard, outside of the game, is why they should be very, very careful not to have false positives, at all.
And we do have video of brand new players who are triggering this system simply because they don't know how to play the game yet.
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There's a bit of a silver lining that most of this is not actually intended, and they do generally put out at least one or two hotfix patches to fix bugs in the first two weeks after a release.
That does still suck that it isn't working right now, and they didn't or couldn't launch it without those issues, but they should be working on correcting them. Ideally sooner than later.
Though chase being broken is a big one. Like, if it's vials causing it they should be kill switched, but I'm not confident that's the entire problem right now from what some people are reporting.
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3973047#Comment_3973047
Seems there trying to make it work a mod was asking for feedback
Here's the only feedback they need to hear. And it's basically universal among the community:
This system is awful. It's irredeemable. You can't make a system that tries to "guess" player intent without punishing people who did nothing wrong (and in many cases, because of the decisions of their opponents).
It can't be fixed, stop wasting your time on it.
Burn every copy of this code, drill holes in the hard drives it was stored on, lock the ashes in a sealed chest, and drop it all into a volcano. We'll all just pretend it never happened.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971912#Comment_3971912
We can't ignore math because it's inconvenient. It's the hard truth, and ignoring that is unproductive.
That being said, in a fair game, you are absolutely correct - we would be looking at a roughly 43% escape rate, and I STRONGLY encourage the devs to at LEAST experiment with leaving behind the notion of balancing the game around 4 individual survivors each with their own win condition and instead shift it to a survivor team (who all wins/ties/loses together) vs the killer. That would actually allow for ties, and in turn bring up the balanced escape rate to ~43%. Until then, the balance is a mess and not a fair game.
It's not inconvenient, it's not applicable.
It's like saying, "well, I have a one in twenty chance to roll a 16 on a fair die, therefore DbD balance." The math you're using here just has nothing to do with DbD. It doesn't model, or resemble, anything we can directly see about the game. It doesn't even come close to how a match plays out, in any way. I could talk about the number of people drinking lattes vs espresso in my local Starbucks and it's equally as irrelevant to DbD as your flipping a coin (even though that's also math).
The apparent goal, every time you do this, is that by skewering the data, you try to take a 60% kill rate and make it look as though killers are the underdog. But they aren't. Not by any metric we have access to. (At least not killers in general, I'm willing to admit that, say, trapper could be a discussion).
You're confusing kill rate (or escape rate) with win and loss rate (which at this point I think is just intentional). You're assuming that every survivor has an equal chance of escaping (which they demonstrably don't), and you're confusing a descriptive percentage as a predictive value.
Currently, kill rate is about 59%, and survivor teams win about 36% of the time (0k or 1k). So since we've been talking about wins, a "fair game" typically will have a roughly equal win/loss rate for each side, with ties coming out of the middle. So, to be clear, you seem to agree with me that 36% win rate for survivors is too low and should be brought up to maybe 43ish%. That would also mean killer's win rate goes down from about 50% to 43%.
But you switch to "kill rates" for some reason, and again, I'm starting to think this is intentional to try and deliberately confuse the issue.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3971299#Comment_3971299
It's 4 survivors against a single player. If each survivor had a 50% chance to escape, then the killer player would be winning in the low 30's percentile. If you want every player to have a 50% chance to win, you're needing something more akin to a 1 on 1 game or a game with an odd number of survivors due to how majorities math works.
Please stop repeating this "forums math".
No matter what the escape rate percentage is, it's descriptive of the state of an average game, and not predictive. This isn't like flipping a fair coin: survivors fall like dominoes because snowballing exists, among other factors.
For example, the first survivor to be chosen to die (by the killer) only escapes about 20% of the time, since 0k is the most rare outcome for a match. And if the first kill happens fast enough (say, with 3 or more gens remaining), the killer has almost guaranteed at least a 3k, barring some extreme set of circumstances. None of that is captured in what you're saying here.
As it is right now, killers "win" (3k or 4k) roughly 50% of the time, and survivors "win" (0k or 1k) about 36% of the time, with the remaining 14% or so being draws (2k).
In an actually fair game, it would be more similar to about 43% for each, with draws taken from the center.
I've personally never seen any other competitive PVP game where not only does your chance of winning really so heavily on whether you're "attacking" or "defending", but you can also choose "always attack" to make sure you are playing on the team designed to win more and never have to "defend".
It's the one (and possibly only) thing that comp DbD tends to get right, which is that each group has to play both as killer and survivor and come out on top to actually beat the other.
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@Deadman7600 said:
You said making one side more powerful by design. By design, yes the killer is stronger. 1 killer is meant to be equal to 4 survivors, that makes the killer more powerful than any individual survivor.
I understand the argument you think you're having right now tho. I think 60% is fair-ish but that's just personally. I like to think of it like the game trying to manufacture a 'final girl' scenario like how in alien the xenomorph kills the majority of the cast but there's always a survivor. Whether you think that's fair is just a matter of opinion like everything when discussing game balance.
The problem with this is that it's not equal currently, at 60%. That's basically what the 60% means: survivors are dying more often than not. It's not "the killer is balanced compared to 4 survivors", it's "the killer is designed to be more powerful than 4 survivors". They want it that way, but it's not "because it's balanced", it's because they choose an arbitrary number.
Arguably, going by game health, 55% is a better target.
I like to think of it like the game trying to manufacture a 'final girl' scenario like how in alien the xenomorph kills the majority of the cast but there's always a survivor.
I always find it interesting that people use this kind of "it happens in horror movies, so it's a good idea in game" to justify killers being the power role. But clearly haven't thought through the implications of applying this logic to a game instead
Do you remember what happens in that scenario? It's not just that the "final girl" survives, but she also kills the killer. And that's a pretty common horror trope, especially with some of the killers you can even play.
And that's why we shouldn't just blindly apply "it works in the movie" to the game.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969877#Comment_3969877
This is such a ridiculous straw man, I’ve never once heard killer players say a win is only a 4K and definitely not counting a win as only a 4K without survives doing a single gen.
3k is a win and most of my games this is how it plays out; sure it’s frustrating to get left on the ground while the killer looks for the last survivor they have no idea where they are but it really is a rarity in my experience.
Maybe region is what makes a difference as I’m in the UK but I’ve seen people talk about ‘humping’ from killers and I’ve only had that happen once to me and I’ve been playing since the game launched on PS4 when Huntress was brand new so it seems disingenuous to me.
I agree that 3k is a win, but the way the community talks about game balance that's not the case for a number of people (typically a small, but insanely loud minority).
There are absolutely people, especially on these forums, who will talk about games that they 4k'd with gens remaining and use that as an example of how "it was too hard" and conclude that either "killers need buffed", "survivors need nerfed", or both.
Sometimes these conversations start with screenshots or even video of the match with the killer absolutely steamrolling.
So I agree and admit this isn't everyone, that's not what I meant. But there are certainly conversations where some people are seeing a 4k with completed gens as "not enough".
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3970274#Comment_3970274
This! It's really not about making one side stronger than the other. It's about making soloq and SWF play at a more similar level to allow for balance and address common frustration points for both killers as survivors, like we've done in the past!
I don't think too many serious people will complain about basekit BT and longer gen times after they've gotten familiar with it, and I doubt they'd try to reverse these changes once they were in play either
(The entity's grasp implementation could vary slightly but the main idea would stay: Slow gens down until the killer has found the first survivor)The entity's grasp implementation could vary slightly but the main idea would stay: Slow gens down until the killer has found the first survivor)
They already did this though. I get that it might be bugged currently sometimes, but having all survivors spawn together does this.
You have to walk across the map to work on separate gens, and working on the same gen together is way less efficient, especially early game. Likely, you're walking into the killer doing that.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969129#Comment_3969129
Maybe killers should give it a gen and a first chase before deciding just how much they should sweat. It's what I do when I can tolerate queue times enough to finally get to play killer.
When playing survivor, I don't understand killers who steamroll me and my fellow solo queue teammates. Like - do the killer players in question miss sitting in queue so much that they need to get matches over with fast so they can get back to that sweet, sweet 'Looking for match' screen? Do they realize curb stomping survivors regardless of their apparent coordination is likely part of why killer queue times are so miserable?
Killers don't NEED to 4K when barely one generator is complete or risk loosing the match.
The definition of a win has shifted pretty drastically over time.
Before 6.1, 3k-4k was a killer win. I still see this regularly when people discuss stats, but not as often in threads about balance changes.
When the hatch changed, it shifted to being only a 4k.
After the 3 gen and gen kick metas, it became "4k with at least 4 gens left standing".
At the most ridiculous, during the 2 weeks thrill was over buffed, there was a thread showcasing a full video of a match: 4k, 5 gens left standing, the survivors' only accomplishment was finally cleansing the thrill totem. There were people in that thread arguing that survivors should be nerfed based on that.
Generally speaking, it's been "4k at 5 gens" for a lot of people for a while now. Which I feel is a big part of why people are so ravenous for regression and getting the 3 gen meta back.
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@SigmaLord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968741#Comment_3968741
I'm not an elephant, my memory is not infallible. I didn't even remember the heal changes.
As for the reason I mentioned changes that didn't even happen yet - if you read who my original comment was for, you'd see it. I was pointing out the irony of claiming the devs care about killers more while admitting to how survivors get the PTB buffs to begin with.
Also, the list is definitely more impactful for survivors. But we're just going to go back and forth here.
Also, the list is definitely more impactful for survivors.
No, it's not. Not by any measure. And that's my point.
Kill rates have gone up, across the board. Maps smaller, chases have gotten shorter. These are things the devs have given us literal data for.
Survivors are dying more often as a result. That's been the impact and the reality. But that's not what you mean when you say this.
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@RodanThrelos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968706#Comment_3968706
You added "flashlight clicking removed" to a discussion about balance changes. You put 2.5% gen kick twice, just to pad your list. You also say things like "extremely generous regression limit" and "bots added to allow perks to trigger". And, you conveniently left out a few survivor changes, and since you decided to be pedantic and add small things, I will do the same.
- Most gen regression got hard nerfed.
- Sabotage was made faster to allow a survivor to complete it and get away.
- 10 additional seconds on hook timer.
- Pentimento and NOED show their auras.
- Sloppy Butcher and Hemorrhage/Mangled nerfs.
- Crow changes were reverted.
- Healing perk and item buffs.
- Survivor UI improvements that give easy coordination.
- Vigil got buffed to basically eliminate Exposed and give double Exhausted use.
The bots were NOT added for killers. The crow changes benefit both sides, BTW. Unless you like having a survuvor hide all match without contributing.
Can you be any more obviously biased? They made changes to both sides to improve the game experience. This pissing match of "who got more buffs/nerfs" is pathetic.
Well, they buffed kicks twice, once in 6.1 and again about a year and a half later. That's not the same as implying that they set it to 5% and never looked at it again, since they obviously continued to change the value over time, and reassessed this feature again later.
I included the +10 seconds on hook. So...
Crow changes were left intact, the timers were nerfed. This system still assumes you're afk by default, it just now takes longer to punish you for it. It's absolutely not "completely reverted" since things like locker hopping and item dropping are still gone.
I was here during the entire bot discussion. There were absolutely discussions about survivors "disconnecting to prevent on hook effects" like blood warden. Denying that that is now gone, because of bots, is simply trying to rewrite history. I'm not implying survivors don't benefit either, but since the bots have also been nerfed to be more stupid since they were introduced, they're often a liability also for the remaining survivors. (Leaving the bot standing while the last survivor player bleeds out is particularly popular, and not really a benefit to the survivor, either)
We were taking about base kit changes, so I left out perks. The only perks I even mentioned were specifically targeted to buff hit and run, as a base kit play style that was largely considered "dead" due to, mainly circle. I might've missed some things, as @jesterkind pointed out, but I'm also going off the top of my head and not bothering to spend an hour researching for a forum post.
If you're going to go out of your way to talk about things that aren't base kit, like perk balance, that's a completely different discussion.
The primary point still stands that the overall balance of the game has shifted in favor of killers. Every patch, change, base kit, perk, add-on, whatever, has overall increased the kill rate. It's not necessarily been a direct upward line, and there's been some up and down, but definitively, by design and intent, and by the data, killers are up way, way more.
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@R2k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3969116#Comment_3969116
On the other end what else you expect them to do? It's efficient strat for kills. If killer ignores survivors, they ge genrush him and t-bag at the exit.
If killer ignores survivors, they ge genrush him
You do realize that these "strats" you're defending largely involve "ignoring survivors".
What do you think the other 3 are doing while the killer waits by a hook? Camping and tunneling are literally "leaving survivors alone" to focus on one.
The solution to both problems, apparently, would be for the killer to leave the hook and push survivors off gens, would it not?
Almost as if, reducing camping and tunneling would also result in gameplay that innately slows down gen progress as well.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968507#Comment_3968507
BHVR are already not doing it correctly because instead of changing the flawed design, they punish people for using it. Your very premise right here is already wrong.
"this isn't lowering skillcap, it's raising the skill floor".
This accomplishes both. You can accomplish objectively less if you dont optimize stages, dont mindlessly pick, dont leave good positions. This is the definition of a lower skillcap. There are less ways in my skill can be expressed and yield results because I have less options and leverages.
You are capable of less. The game isn't offering an alternative. The worst is that the game isn't addressing the actual core issue that most of these strategies propagate - onesided hopeless matches. It tries to script killer's macro skill expression and force them into playing in a streamlined way when it should be scripting the very flow of the match, making each stage (1v4,1v3,1v2,1v1) more fair even if the circumstances around it werent. 1v4 should be tremendously nerfed, 1v3 should stay the same or be buffed depending on how many hook stages killer scored on each person before getting a kill, 1v2 should be buffed, 1v1 should be reworked.
And speaking of raising skill floor, you kindly listed numerous buffs that killers got in compensation of the nerfs. Care to tell me, how many of these buffs added to raising skill cap and how many added to decreasing skill floor? What part of, for example, +10 seconds on generators made killers put more skill for higher reward? And what part of it just bluntly gave killers more time to stomp bad players? And how many of these buffs just added to survivors having to be "better" at the game to play around this, raising survivor skill floor?
"And to reinforce that people aren't as skilled as they think they are at this game: one of the biggest indicators of "mastery" in anything is being able to adapt. The better you are at something, anything, the more you can accept handicaps or restrictions and still perform."
They aren't really adapting, they're just making up for progressively increasing amount of missing options by leaning into the only consistent gameplan they have - slap 3-4 hook slowdown perks + 1 chase/info and win chases as fast as you can. If you can't, you lose and will eventually drop where you can.
Adapting means changing your strategy. I am adapting when I see dogshit healing meta and take franklin leverage + sloppy addon. I am adapting when I switch my gameplan from hit&run to tunnelling because people have strong reset. I am not adapting when Im losing an option and have to do the same thing but worse. Im just forced to try harder (or lose until my opponents get easy).
Speaking of that, you don't seem to get why am I calling this noobstomping. The reason is that for the whole "wholesome chungus no tunnelling/slugging/camping killer that plays only for chases" ordeal to work, the killers will need to be destroying survivors in chases, the 1v1 skill expressive interaction. This can only be accomplished in one out of two ways - unfair power or massive skillgap to consistently and successfully beat survivors in chases to get your hooks.
You can't have that when you're playing a killer with fair chase power and long average chase time vs knowledgeable player because your killer just doesnt work in a way that lets you instantly get near the target and kill them with an unavoidable skillshot. So you will need to remove or dampen down one thing out of the equation. The reality is that pretty much most killers except majority of S/high A can be ran for a decent amount of time as long as you have resources. So there you go.
For the killer to keep up without optimal macro strategies they need to be magnitudes better than the survivor at playing the chase. They need to be massively more successful as otherwise they won't have enough time to get to their 60% expected killrate as they would need to win a lot of chases before they lose the game to get their kills.
A lot of killers make up for having fair chases by having macro powers that give killers extra leverage to pressure people and make up for longer chases. You can figure that every new nerf to macro skill expression hurts these killers disproportionately compared to chaser onetricks.
And of course, since that's the goal to have people beating down worse players, we impose artificial handicap on killers so they can't just >4k3 these worse players. We don't think about the games where killers aren't facing marginally worse opponents.
Exciting gameplay of artificial difficulty while effectively legally smurfing.
Speaking of my personal experience, the games where I feel like I can play 100% fair on either of my mains is when survivors are visibly terrible and get hit by most of the tricks in the book. Beating down these people is neither fun nor difficult (though of course, gens are popping as the game goes on since im not applying pressure correctly), but I guess that's the kind of "chill killer gameplay" that we want - scripted and boring.
As I said, this whole thing is already culminating into shallow victories and hopeless defeats for killers and utterly boring one-sided gameplay for survivors because the only thing that is left for killers to play for is chase,chase,chase, while survivors can just rush gens and play for resources and good dying spots.
If you think this is healthy for the game because whatever reasons, it's your opinion, but this mentality developers are having and the design approach is why we're having such a massive gap between S tiers and everyone else, chase killers and everyone else and why killer role is becoming more and more a noobstomper role.
Yeah, we don't know what it is. It doesn't mean we can't make noise, especially when we got a glimpse of it with the chaos shuffle antislug testing that they had. It's better to talk about it as early as we can so that maybe the developer finally acknowledges that band aid systems and blanket buffs make the game worse for everyone but people who enjoy feeding their ego by getting cheap wins.
The worst is that the game isn't addressing the actual core issue that most of these strategies propagate - onesided hopeless matches
It does though.
When you have a "strategy" that is so hands-down completely, no-contest more effective than everything else, people overly rely on it. That's why people like me complain about "tunneling at 5 gens" because it's taking something that really should be a comeback mechanic, and basing the entire match around it.
People "feel they need to tunnel" because of exactly this crutch. They tunnel, completely destroy survivors who are at their skill level, and boost their MMR to a point where anything else that would be required of them is too much. They can't find survivors quickly, can't chase efficiently, can't read the loops, can't identify which pallets are playable, can't manage their kit well. And they are so, absolutely convinced that they need 4 slowdowns, that they are even failing the meta game by not bringing the perks or addons that would help them in those situations.
And, it appears we agree on that, because:
They aren't really adapting, they're just making up for progressively increasing amount of missing options by leaning into the only consistent gameplan they have - slap 3-4 hook slowdown perks + 1 chase/info and win chases as fast as you can. If you can't, you lose and will eventually drop where you can.
Yes, they will drop in MMR. That is actually a huge benefit of this for killers. Assuming the anti-tunnel mechanic actually does something meaningful for tunneling at 5 gens, instead of sweating their balls off every game to feel like they're drowning against survivors who are more skilled than they are… they should lose games until they settle into their actual MMR bracket.
This whole strategy is a crutch, covering up people's innate inefficiencies with the core game mechanics. And instead of looking at those and learning, or even admitting that they could have room to improve, they are going to use every buff, advantage, or new perk/ability to tunnel even more. When that doesn't work, they scream for regression, because, again, it can't be them being inefficient, the only answer is that the game is somehow tuned against them. But it's not. Demonstrably. The Devs specifically set out to make the game lean toward the killer, and every patch, every data point confirms that they've succeeded at this.
Care to tell me, how many of these buffs added to raising skill cap and how many added to decreasing skill floor? What part of, for example, +10 seconds on generators made killers put more skill for higher reward? And what part of it just bluntly gave killers more time to stomp bad players? And how many of these buffs just added to survivors having to be "better" at the game to play around this, raising survivor skill floor?
I really don't care honestly. The "skill floor" is largely a subjective thing, and I feel like your entire fixation with it is disingenuous.
You started by creating a weirdly inflated and wildly biased list, in an attempt to show "look, survivors got more (quantity) than killers" and implied it was unfair. When I posted to show that, no killers actually got a decent amount more, you're shifting the goal post again here.
Here's what really matters: 3 years of the devs making active changes to increase kill rates. Not because 60% is "fair" or "perfectly balanced", but because "they want the killer role to be more lethal". And all of those changes to the game have combined to do exactly that.
The game has been made easier for killers, by quality (and possibly by quantity too, but that's really beside the point). So the skill floor, overall, has gone down for killers, and gone up for survivors… Which is one of the main reasons why killers are being mismatched with survivor teams who are actually more skilled than the killer.
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The real question here is what kind of gameplay should the devs be aiming for?
The killer drives the gameplay, period. If the killer is afk or bugged and physically unable to play the game for some reason, then survivor gameplay becomes "do gens and leave". There is no game.
Yet that's nearly the gameplay that hard camping and tunneling (at the start of the game) provide. The killer focuses on one player, to the exclusion of nearly everything else, and for 3 survivors the game becomes "do gens or lose". And if the killer can eliminate that first player quickly enough, which is more often than not by the stats, even "doing gens" will still mean losing.
So, when the killer alone chooses to play this way, the first survivor tunneled out doesn't get to do anything else, gets about 5k BP (punished for not getting to play), and when they added "go next" (which who knows if that's coming back) was literally punished with penalties if they got tunneled too quickly.
For the other 3, the killer basically doesn't exist, so the only real option is to do gens and stare at a progress bar, and maybe have a chance of escape. And even then, it's not only not guaranteed, but you're basically playing PVE and likely to still lose. All because the killer has decided that they want to play this way.
So why is this the "meta" strategy and gameplay loop? Why has it been 9 years where defenses to prevent this have been nerfed on top of core game changes that have actually increased the effectiveness of these strategies?
If we're going to start actively punishing players for standing still too long, why is it "a perfectly acceptable strategy" when the killer, the one player that drives the gameplay, does it camping the first hook of the game, but suddenly it's "punishable by giving free information to the killer with crows" and potentially a DC penalty (if they add it back) when survivors are hiding. Make this make sense, BHVR.
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@SigmaLord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968706#Comment_3968706
I was talking about basekit, not perks:
- Bots were added for survivors, it's a survivor buff, and the lack of bots is still worse. At least they do gens
- Bloodlust buffs help M1 killers more than anyone else, I don't even feel I need to address this. M1 killers are still too underpowered and Bloodlust just helps them not suck against chain-able tiles
- Flashlight clicking is really something you're considering?
- Basekit Lightborn on lockers is anti-bullying, and I really doubt it works because I've had this happen to me multitudes of times.
- Smaller maps is a valid point, that's a big buff. Especially considering that survivors now spawn together
- BNP "nerf" is hardly a nerf. It used to be 15% instant progression, then went to become 10% off the generator charges. It's a 5% "nerf", and a buff if the killer interrupts or regresses your generator.
- The individual killer buffs are all on low tier killers. No one would complain if Calm Spirit got buffed, or if Smash Hit's haste went from 5 seconds to 6 seconds.
- The crows were very good at their job, too good in fact. But now it's practically the way it was before. I had someone in my game literally go afk after being hooked, I eventually saw crows appear and boy, I hooked like 4 more times in between. He was standing still.
The only perks I added were the PT and BNP change. Healing was nerfed as a buff to hit and run, a base kit playstyle.
Even if you cut the list in half, like you appear to be trying to, it's still a way, way longer and considerably more impactful list for killers.
ETA: I'll also mention that your response here is going into a lot of backpedaling to try and justify changes. There's no need, since you started with simply listing patches.
Oddly, you also had to inflate the survivor list with at least 2 changes that not only haven't happened yet, but we also have no details on.
Equally oddly, you felt it necessary to point out the "base kit unbreakable" that never made it live and they announced was never going to happen. Why didn't you then also include the "+8 seconds to healing" that they equally tested, but never put live. (I didn't include this either, because the answer is that doing so is disingenuous). Almost like you were stretching to make it look worse than the reality, which is way, way closer to my list.
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@SigmaLord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968477#Comment_3968477
This is such an ironic statement. Where are the killer buffs? You're literally admitting to the massive survivor basekit changes while killers get… Nada.
Survivor basekit changes:
- Borrowed Time
- Unbreakable (tested twice, not implemented)
- Anti-Facecamp
- Anti-tunnel (soon)
- Anti-camp (soon)
Killer basekit changes:
- 10% faster action speed
- 5% damage on gen kick
- No insta-clicking to prevent regression
Wow, this clearly favors killers.
Survivor basekit changes:
- Borrowed Time (incompatible with nearly every anti-tunnel perk)
- Anti-Facecamp (useless)
- Insanely generous regression limit
- +10 seconds on hooks
- Hook grabs removed
- Bots added for a warm body the killer can freely ignore until they get hatch
Killer basekit changes:
- +10 seconds to gens
- 10% faster action speed
- Bloodlust buffs
- +2.5% damage on gen kick
- Flashlight clicking removed
- Base kit lightborn on locker grabs
- +2.5% more damage on gen kick
- No insta-clicking to prevent regression (anti gen tap)
- Smaller maps, entire realm reworks, more dead zones, pallets weakened, tile spawn logic reworked to prevent chaining
- Healing nerfs to improve hit and run playstyles (CoH, medkits)
- "Gen rush" nerfs (BNP deleted, Prove nerfed)
- Survivors all spawn together (more gen rush nerf)
- Individual killer buffs every chapter for 2 years, most of which made some add-ons partially or completely base kit
- Bots added to allow perks to trigger even if the survivor disconnects
- Anti-hiding (crows buffed, distortion deleted)
FTFY
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3968495#Comment_3968495
I think your giving way too much credit to "reading pixels". All the things your talking about would require a program to have context and recognize things like windows. This program is just staring at a specific spot on the screen each map and reading if that spot turns red. Its got the computational complexity of a light switch. You can't make a mini map or everything else you said with that. Even things that show visual cues on a survivor model wouldn't be able to be tracked with this since it could happen anywhere on the screen.
So, here are just some of the things you can do simply by reading pixels, exactly as OP is doing:
- Read the name of the map on load-in, and overlay a static minimap image in the corner of the layout with clock numbers (or really any map-specific image you like).
- Read every buff or debuff in the corner of your screen, as well as read every hex or notification popup on the side. Between these two alone, it could also overlay a real-time killer build so you can track exactly what the killer is running.
- Read and maintain a record of every gen's last known progress on the map, even if you don't know the location.
- Read every perk and item on your character and give exact cooldowns/charges remaining. This could trivially track which survivors still have Pain Res charges to use and just show you that info.
- Give an exact timer for the EGC.
- Give a countdown for opening the gate based on the progress bar.
- Read every BP event and give a real-time estimate for the match.
You also have the added problem that, presumably, this also tracks StB, since it would have to follow the hook and understand that hook stage was transferred to another survivor. The only way to do that is by also tracking the audio, and knowing not only that a survivor screamed, but which one by hearing their voice. If you add audio to the mix, you can also easily:
- Track killer cooldowns as survivor by listening for the M2.
- Not only track cooldowns, but identify the add-ons used in a pretty big number of cases. (You could, for example, have an overlay that starts counting down the instant you reveal Ghostie that tells you when his shroud is back up).
- With both audio and pixels, the system can narrow down the exact killer and just show you their picture within the first 30 or so seconds of the match.
- Get a much wider range of confirmed perks and addons to display. No guessing "was that brutal?" The "mod" can just detect that the animation was exactly fast enough for that addon.
I'm also going to point out that, while you seem to be basing your argument on the technical functionality here, I'm objecting from a principle standpoint. Especially if someone were to spend the time to train an LLM on the limited number of things in this game, there's almost nothing you can't do with just "reading pixels".
I'm opposed to it on principle: these are all things you as the player can do, and should be expected to do. Can you keep track of the hook stages on a piece of paper? Absolutely, and it comes at the cost of turning away from the keyboard to mark it down. Can you track these cooldowns roughly in your head? Absolutely, this is called game sense. We shouldn't be pushing to offload things like game sense and game knowledge onto a 3rd party program to keep track of for us.
This game is already not as complicated as people make it out to be sometimes, but rather than stepping up and learning, growing, or improving, we shouldn't be encouraging people to just give up and install software that does it for us. If the game is going to boil down to "who has the better 3rd party software installed", well… the same thing can be said of literal cheats or hacks.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
the replies to the thread are such a clueless circle jerk lol
these people unironically thinking the game will become better if they just massively nerf killer's macro skillcap like this and let it be and pat each other on heads for saying how silly killers dare demand alternatives for whole strategies devs plan to effectively make useless
they dont realize that this is going to play out exactly as mandy said then - people will drop in mmr and will end up in lobbies where they can play without optimizing hooks and pressure.
anyone with at least a bit of experience should know how fast chases in such lobbies can be xd
this is gonna be fun for people who enjoy noobstomping and cheap ego validation, regardless of the role, everyone gonna get their piece
these people unironically thinking the game will become better if they just massively nerf killer's macro skillcap like this and let it be and pat each other on heads for saying how silly killers dare demand alternatives for whole strategies devs plan to effectively make useless
Alternately, I don't believe that people are nearly as skilled as they think they are at this game. There are an awful lot of "one trick ponies" that only camp and tunnel or only slug, and haven't learned anything else.
Ideally, if BHVR does it correctly, they should be able to target the excessive uses of these strategies, and leave the situational, or end game, uses largely alone. What that looks like, no one knows yet, and we can barely speculate what that might be.
I honestly argue that this isn't lowering the skill cap, it's raising the skill floor. And to reinforce that people aren't as skilled as they think they are at this game: one of the biggest indicators of "mastery" in anything is being able to adapt. The better you are at something, anything, the more you can accept handicaps or restrictions and still perform.
they dont realize that this is going to play out exactly as mandy said then - people will drop in mmr and will end up in lobbies where they can play without optimizing hooks and pressure.
So if you think that "meaningfully addressing camping and tunneling" is going to lower people's MMR, I agree. Because people can't easily adapt and have used those strategies to boost themselves for years. That's the literal definition of a crutch.
Ideally, solving these issues will make games less sweaty for killers also, as they are facing opponents closer to their actual skill level. It will take a while, and it will take losing a lot for that MMR to balance itself out after all this time. Most people won't accept that, since losing is anathema to a lot of killer players here.
We might end up losing some people, but I've been assured (aggressively) on these forums that killers can adapt to anything, while survivors can't. So I guess we may or may not see that in action.
I'm honestly not sure where you think noob stomping is coming into play here, since people will settle into a skill bracket where they can handle whatever system is put into place in phase 2. I honestly suspect that there will be a period of "settling" as killers lose MMR to more closely be matched to their appropriate skill levels, and then things will largely proceed from there with 60% kill rates.
And, as a reminder, we don't know what that is at this point. So any "the sky is falling" is entirely unjustified yet.
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I'm gonna say a hard no.
Third party software is pretty closely monitored, and needs to be whitelisted. Just because it's hard to detect or police doesn't mean you should try to use it anyway.
I've been opposed to showing the killer hook stages in the past and this goes way beyond that. This is basically a replacement for game sense and game knowledge in general.
I don't honestly think that is that difficult for people to remember hook stages, or who was recently hooked. This isn't that fast paced of a game, and it's completely feasible to keep track of things like that.
People are not going to learn, and get better if they just have a tool that does it for them.
But putting up timers? That's way too far.
The fact that this reads pixels means you could do nearly anything. It could keep track of each players loadout for you. It could generate a live mini map of the randomly generated tiles and show you which totems and gen spawns you got.
It could reveal the auras of gens you've passed by, and show you roughly what percentage they're at. For survivors you could literally read the exact percentage, which is basically adding several perks to your character simply by adding the "mod".
You could also, in theory, give yourself windows or just have it draw out the path you should take to loop a given tile. You could do nearly anything with "reading pixels" and "sampling audio", because that's automating the same inputs the player receives.
So no. If you don't have the game sense or game knowledge to do this by yourself, vanilla, then you should learn it. Not just install something that allows you to bypass it and never have to be bothered to learn it.