AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956352#Comment_3956352
The multitude of YouTube videos made during the gen kick meta are still available to new players, so that can contribute to the gen focus alot too. Plus a number of players who started playing during that time still cling to it. We know the devs will make sure the game never revolves around gen kicking again, so yes, people need to abandon that mindset.
To add onto your chase point - it's also important to recognize when a chase has gone on too long. Experienced survivors will intentionally lead you away from gens being actively worked on, so dont dedicate too much time to them because you'll lose your pressure on the others. Ignore the ones who wave for you to chase them 😂 they know what they're doing
@OP great post, thanks for sharing
it's also important to recognize when a chase has gone on too long.
Fantastic point, and absolutely. Knowing when to drop chase is a skill by itself.
I can also say that I personally got better by deliberately choosing to chase the good survivor in a handful of matches. Basically just chalking that match up to a learning experience and making sure I was pushing myself to do better, or learn something, at the conscious cost of knowing the short term "correct play" was to drop chase. In the long run, I learned a lot doing that.
Obviously, you shouldn't do that every match, but being open to learning is a great way to improve.
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Wholeheartedly agree.
Couple things I can add:
the better you are in chase, the quicker you can create pressure
This is the one area I think the devs have "gotten it", even though there's a lot of work to be done in the name of balance. All of these map reworks, weaker pallets, reworked tile spawn logic, etc all goes toward reducing chase times.
While I don't think that maps are perfect, far from it, and I still disagree with the target goal overall, I think that focusing on chases is way, way healthier for the game.
Because the alternative is related to my other thought:
A killer player that not only plays very actively, but does so by creating scenarios that force a response, will notice the effects of pressuring survivors
The "pressuring survivors" part is where I feel like many get this wrong, because an unfortunately large number of people want the game to be entirely about gens again. A lot of killers can only think in terms of "pressuring gens", and gens are not the killers objective.
There are a ton of people who, even years later, still want the game to be pve gen kick simulator, where there is effectively no skill expression to be had for anyone. (Which, for some, is the entire point)
Gens are a resource for the killer, and expendable. Just like health states or even hook states are a resource for survivors. And while you might be able to finish a game without expending any of those resources, you're likely going to give up one or more of them to win the overall match.
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@Munky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955992#Comment_3955992
Phase 2 mate, slugging will be a thing of the past when phase 2 hits. I'm sure they will somehow completely murder it. Rumor has it they are going to test BaseKit tenacity+Unbreakable in the next chaos mode… presumably to add it later to the regular game mode. This would indeed completely murder the slug strategy.
Well, you don't know that since we have no details.
They also already tested instant, wireless hooks for killers in 2v8 and people still slugged.
The last time they gave us "anti camp" on the road map we got AFC. Which is worthless. There was a video just yesterday on the general page of a killer hitting on hook for 30 seconds.
So, no, if anything BHVR has only demonstrated that they cannot go even as far as "slap on the wrist" levels of action for killers. Even when they ptb test things they get nerfed by complaints.
I'll believe otherwise only when the mechanic hits live and not a single second before.
ETA: they already tested base kit unbreakable three years ago or so on a "finisher mori" ptb. They scrapped it and outright said they would never do base kit unbreakable. And, as you can already see, the reworked finisher mori has been live for a while and just recently got buffed to include the last 2 survivors (base kit).
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So if I just never hook anyone my games get insanely easy, and I can still 4k. Especially on killers who already excel.
This is just a giga buff to slugging and why they balance around kills and not hooks btw. Not to mention other means of killing survivors without hooks that just skew the results here.
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This is kind of why incentives to not tunnel don't work, tbh.
You're basically just applying the effect to the obsession, and boosting the effect when everyone's alive. And there's a thought process where "hey, if you don't tunnel and spread hooks you get twice the value".
But he's the reality: this isn't more slowdown than tunneling is. Especially since you can very easily keep one in chase, one on hook, and one going for rescue when there are only 3 survivors. And no perk is better than "gen progress effectively stops entirely", especially when there are 2 or more gens left.
So if they did this, here's what would happen: Killers might use this perk, maybe. But it's fully compatible with tunneling. It actually makes tunneling even better.
Even if your first 3 hooks are the same person, and let's go with minimal value and say it's even the obsession that gets tunneled out, then you've gotten double slowdown until the survivor dies. So it buys you more time to tunnel early, and you still gain all of the benefits of having one less survivor out of the game early.
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Generally speaking, just hitting someone on hook isn't reportable. You might be able to chalk this up to griefing, which is reportable, but ultimately they may not take action either way.
Sorry you had to experience that either way.
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There are three phases to every event for the past few years:
Phase 1: everyone is trying out the new stuff, messing around. This is the "honeymoon" phase where it can actually be fun.
Phase 2: killers realize that survivors are actually focused on a side objective instead of doing gens, and tunneling, camping, and slugging are catching people off guard for easier wins.
Phase 3: survivors have figured out that the event is basically just getting them farmed and it's back to effectively playing the normal game with maybe a slight BP boost. There's a delay as people slowly figure out that they're in phase 2 and need to change tactics.
Generally, it takes about 3-5 days to go through all these phases when an event launches, unless the event hasn't really changed since the last iteration and then we just stay in phase 3 from the last time.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954270#Comment_3954270
You can downplay the botany buff all you want and ignore the desperate measures buff all you want as well. All it lets me know is that you don't understand the game as much as you believe you do.
And that's perfectly okay.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to be condescending, but I suspect it's because you don't have a valid response otherwise.
The heal buffs aren't contributing to Gen speeds nearly as much as the devs literally giving your location away for free if you don't slam gens as hard as possible.
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Unfortunately, I doubt they're going to fix crows in the way they need to.
This whole patch has been pretty heavy handed and extreme. It's like only the loudest punish them voices were heard, and literally no one paid attention to "what does a system like this do to the gameplay".
Which is extremely frustrating, because that's not only their job as devs, but people like me also told them that was a bad idea months ago.
I used to give the devs the benefit of the doubt here, and I still recognize that the job isn't exactly easy. But I've chalked a lot of changes in the past up to "they just don't want to significantly impact player autonomy".
You can't really just delete camping, tunneling, slugging, (or stealth) because there are valid situations where those are the correct answer. Ideally, you want to target excessive use cases without impacting those valid situations as much as possible.
Or so I thought, until the crows update. And all of my "benefit of the doubt" assumptions go out the window.
Stealth got effectively deleted. Even now that "being sneaky" is, apparently, allowed again, like you said: slugging for the 4k effectively guarantees the kill because of this system.
And we got here because they said "to hell with player autonomy". Even now, the system is effectively a short list of about 5 things that are considered "gameplay" and anything else is on the road to punishment (or at least, free information for the killer, which accounts to the same thing).
It's absurd. And I don't think there's any excuse for it.
It's also concerning, since if we're taking a "assume the worst from the player and remove their autonomy" stage, then is camping being completely deleted in phase 2, for example?
And at this point, they've boxed themselves into a corner and there's no right answer here: if yes, we're still ignoring the valid situations where camping isn't a problem (like end game), if no, then why do killers get special treatment and survivors only get punishments?
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That's because they aren't additive bonuses, but multiplicative, and independent for each person.
So your personal modifiers are:
- One 15% reduction penalty for grouping (0.85x multiplier)
- One 10% buff for prove (1.1x)
- One 6% buff for deja Vu (1.06x)
And since the base is 1 charge per second:
1 * .85 * 1.1 * 1.06 = 0.9911 total.
So since you're not above the 1 charge per second it shows a red bar. Your friend will have the same bonuses with the same buffs, so you're doing almost, but not quite, 2 charges per second on the gen together.
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@Rapid99 said:
Healing got buffed. Less time spent healing = more time on gens.
Plus gen regression perks being awful across the board.
One perk had a downside removed and suddenly people think it's a healing meta.
Maybe, just maybe, it's the fact that the devs pushed out not just one, but two poorly concieved mechanics this patch that both hard punished survivors for not doing gens. Probably has something to do with people focusing on gens more right now.
Nah, that can't be it. Clearly we need to find a survivor nerf in here somewhere.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954207#Comment_3954207
Can you decide what is the problem? Is it healing or not healing? You act as if Killers are always losing games, because they cannot injure Survivors and they cannot have them healthy.
This happens every time healing comes up. If survivors are spending time healing it's terrible because of the health state.
If survivors aren't healing, then it's terrible because they're just spending time on gens.
Solutions to this problem have all been rejected also. CoH was a side objective that took survivors off gens to have to go heal (this was unacceptable, circle was nerfed, and people went back to playing injured).
The devs also tested making healing suck base kit with 24 second heals in one ptb and then decided not to when nearly everyone said it would kill the game.
Survivors could all start the match in the dying state and people would complain about the "unbreakable meta".
And, as always, clamor for gens to take 5 minutes each.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953986#Comment_3953986
The same should apply to survivors complaining about solo q. Solo q survivors should have clues of where the other survivors are. They should work on their macro tracking, if they don't know what the other solo q survivors are doing. If survivors want more information on their teammates, they should be required to use perks to find them.
Therefore, survivors don't need more buffs to solo q, because they can just bring perks, or learn better macro tracking instead.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954011#Comment_3954011
Expecting BHVR to heavily nerf killer strategies, instead of learning how to properly deal with them, is the laziest approach to PVP I've ever seen.
I'm not expecting it, I'm actually fully expecting them to put in something barely noticeable that doesn't address the issue, then nerf even that after people like you
complainprovide feedback. That's exactly what happened with AFC, and we're still waiting for something meaningful to be done about camping.There's this weird disconnect currently, where if survivors are standing still and doing nothing, even as a "strategy" (stealth) it's punished by crows, and they even put Depip, Derank, disconnect penalty on top of even that.
Yet if the killer is standing still, doing nothing, even as a "strategy" (camping), you seem to expect and demand that nothing be done.
I recall something about wanting consistency in another thread from you specifically. So maybe you should try that yourself sometime.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953972#Comment_3953972
That is incorrect. The killer often doesn’t have any clues of where the survivors are. They might hope the survivors will be near a generator, but proxy camping is often the only way to guarantee where a survivor actually is.
And that is why proxy camping should never be punished. If survivors are allowed to hide, then killers should be allowed to proxy-camp.
You do have clues. You see gens with progress, scratch marks, and at a bare minimum you know where you've already been and haven't seen those things to rule out potential spots where they aren't.
I can almost certainly guarantee you have room in your build for information as well, and they nerfed distortion for exactly this scenario.
There's a weird tautology of thinking here that just isn't true: you're starting with "I need to camp" and then coming up with justifications after the fact. It's trying to justify camping no matter the scenario, when you should be switching tactics in a lot of cases.
In your head you're stuck on:
- If survivors stay on gens, well, better camp to secure the kill.
- If survivors hide, well, better camp so they come to you instead
- If survivors come to the hook, well, of course I should be near the hook, my objective is here
This is basically the laziest approach to PVP I've ever seen.
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So, without gameplay it's hard to say.
From a build standpoint, you're all over the place and seem to have just slapped slowdown in every slot. CoB isn't really compatible with the other 3 either. Ruin blocks gen kicks, and surge is intended to prevent you from having to kick gens.
You need information, and I always recommend lethal pursuer as the best perk in the game. Early pressure is ideal. And while thrilling can be ok information, you might do better with something like BBQ to know where to go after your hook.
Ruin is ok if you are planning to stay in chase and push survivors off gens, and surge is best if you're closing out chases quickly, but I suspect those might be two things you might be having issues with also.
If you're just camping and tunneling the first person you find, ruin is worthless, CoB is largely useless also, and thrilling isn't even giving you useful information. So if you play "meta strategies", you're most playing perkless.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953743#Comment_3953743
The problem is a lot of survivors want to punish or prevent killers from camping, but also want to be able to hide far away from generators when the killer leaves a hooked survivor to patrol the map.
Survivors in a SWF want the hooked survivor to warn their teammates that the killer left the hook, so all the other survivors can pre-leave the generators to hide, and create a situation where they get a free unhook, but the killer doesn't find anyone else to chase. These survivors want to weaponize anti-camping to get free unhooks.
The problem is a lot of survivors want to punish or prevent killers from camping, but also want to be able to hide far away from generators when the killer leaves a hooked survivor to patrol the map.
This is such a skewed take. You seem to expect survivors to just stand out in the open as easy picking for the killer. Being visible is generally a stupid move, and even in "horror genre" hiding from the killer is a thing.
Interestingly, they just put in two different mechanics this patch to hard punish hiding. Specifically because it's "not playing the game". So by your logic, the devs should have the same, consistent mindset toward camping: standing still isn't gameplay, so consistency would dictate the same penalties they rolled out for survivors.
These survivors want to weaponize anti-camping to get free unhooks.
Well, since we don't have any details you can't actually say that honestly. Especially since AFC can't be weaponized.
It's odd though that you seem to think that winning one chase means the killer deserves a kill. Because unhooking is a core part of the game.
It seems like survivors who aren't playing like brainless idiots (by hiding when necessary, not wandering into the killer intentionally, and not playing into the killers camping strategy) are giving you a hard time. Maybe there's some room for improvement on your end, perhaps.
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@spokey_scary said:
Gens feel Faster after the spring trap patch for some reason, You can lit have an average first chase as killer and still get 3 gens done by the time You hook. Why? Cause survivors spread gens. No amount of slowdown can even stop this imo. They really need to do Something. If theyre gonna adresa tunneling mightaswell adrese this aswell
This exact patch forced survivors to spawn together at the start of the match. That's your "do something".
Because at this point, you're telling us that it took 90 seconds for the gens, plus even more time for those survivors to spread out before you got your first hook.
The average chase time for an entire match is about 1 minute per survivor. So if it's taking you two minutes or more to get one hook, you either need to use intel perks to find survivors faster, or improve in chase to reduce your own chase time. I'm guessing both.
Lethal pursuer is basically the best perk in the game. That would cut out all of the "blind wandering" at the start of the match, at minimum. The rest requires you to examine your own gameplay.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953438#Comment_3953438
I am not upset I hit a speed bump
I am upset because I thought I was going up against people that were cheating and the fact that the game lets you run that sort of thing is a serious problemI don't necessarily disagree that stacking several things in this game can be problematic and should probably not stack, haste being one of them.
But there's a pretty strong push from some very loud parts of the community that are very inconsistent on this.
Before the MFT nerf, people screamed, cried, and ######### themselves with tantrums about how overpowered haste stacking was, and BHVR listened to that by nerfing MfT into oblivion.
But after they nerfed MFT and were rolling out literally "we listened, and haste stacking is too powerful, so we're adjusting the perks and removing attacking across the board", many of those same people screamed, cried, and ######### themselves again to keep it. And BHVR backtracked again.
So at this point, with haste in particular, it's very clear that "it's overpowered. killers should have it but survivors can't" is literally the sentiment. That's not even hyperbole at this point.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953768#Comment_3953768
"if you aren't hyper competitive"
Nobody plays to lose. Nobody. Everyone likes to win. Winning gives us that nice little hit of dopamine.
And yet, the 60% kill rate means that this game is designed for survivors to lose more often.
Survivors have been asking for about 3 years now to make the gameplay fun, even while you're losing. This patch shared with not one, but two core mechanics that just punish you and dictate how you should play the game.
This thread, has an insane number of people defending a "strategy" that largely means survivors don't get to play the game. While playing a match they're designed to lose and basically not get rewarded for with BP or even quest completion.
So, by your own admission, either the 60% kill rate, or tunneling, or both need to be addressed meaningfully. And ideally sooner than December.
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I'm not seeing a problem with your screenshot here.
Are you upset that you hit a speed bump while completely steamrolling this team?
Cause this appears to be the classic "sure I hard won the match, but I had to try a little bit, so please nerf the losing team so this outcome is even easier next time".
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3953170#Comment_3953170
I don't know why you would assume every heal starts at a generator, that's a bit odd. That's definitely the scenario where CoH looks weakest - start at an objective, run away from the objective to heal, run back - but that's also pretty obviously not the only situation you'd be in, and I'd tentatively argue it's not even a common one.
For another example, unhooks. You unhook someone, you and that someone run to the boon and heal, you and that someone run away to separate generators. That's strictly speaking less efficient than healing under the hook, but healing under the hook is a risk and not something to be done every time anyway- it's not uncommon for there to be travel time associated with a post-unhook heal, so if we compare to any other heal with a travel time here, CoH is a massive bonus.
In addition, any other heal where there'd be travel time is relevant here. Any time you run a few tiles because the killer's a bit too close, or you'd want to be behind cover just in case, CoH is coming out neutral on average for travel time and thus looks very strong overall.
Hell, if you're in a SWF - and I will acknowledge this point is SWF only, this doesn't apply to solo queue - you can even coordinate meeting halfway in a boon, which is less travel time than one player going all the way to the other.
As for the blessing time, yes, that's a timesink, that's part of what balances having a zone of We'll Make It. Only one person has to do it, though, and if played smartly they only have to do it once. It's not a matter of whether or not "the heal" pays back that investment because there isn't just one heal and it isn't just for one player. This is part of why the perk's more consistent in SWF, but even a halfway competent team of solos will know to heal in the boon if it's close by, and every heal in the boon pays for the setup time.
As for your suggestion, if they made it so you couldn't speed up the self-heal that would've been fine too. The problem with CoH was always that you could gain massively fast self heals by bringing one or two extra tools, that's the part that needed to be fixed. Though, just being a zone of Self-Care only for people who brought the perk would've made it tremendously weaker than what we have now.
I don't know why you would assume every heal starts at a generator, that's a bit odd.
So, I'm saying the default is that after a heal, you're going to want to do a gen. I'm assuming the killer isn't nearby/interrupting/etc, so the ideal case is to heal and then go be efficient and work on gens.
That scenario assumes that a survivor is injured and wants a heal, but isn't directly near someone to heal them. That's the scenario that current CoH is designed for because of the aura read part they added.
So if someone is injured and alone they can go wait in the boon (a waste of time) and then someone else has to leave the gen they're on to go to the boon to heal them.
I'm comparing that to "just go to the gen and heal there" which eliminates the travel time for one survivor, in fact, that leaves one person on gens while the injured searches for a healer. Barring comms, the ideal play is to ignore the boon, even if it's lit.
Now, you're right, maybe that starts at a hook, but the math doesn't really change.
You start at the hook, and maybe, if you're lucky, you are already in the boon radius (although the killer likely heard it and snuffed it if they were that close). So you have to travel.
And if you spend more than 4 seconds going toward the boon, and it happens to not be exactly in line with the gen you want to do next, you get the same math.
Just healing under hook, or going directly to the gen, or anywhere in a straight line along the way is more efficient unless the boon is also in that path.
Part of the benefit of circle was you could take a dead zone of the map with no gens left and make it a heal area. The killer isn't likely to go there, and survivors didn't drag the killer to the boon (at least not circle, exponential is a different story, but was never meta).
So, generally speaking, the recovery area isn't going to be in the middle of your gen spread to make these numbers work. You have to go out of your way to use the boon, and at that point you've gained nothing from doing that. You're going to be going a lot farther than 4 seconds in a lot of situations.
The perk is awful for solo queue, and "just meet me at the shack gen and I'll heal you up" is better in basically every scenario. Bond is better, almost all the time, and it's useful in more situations.
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@jesterkind said:
The problem is, boon perks aren't bad. Bear with me, I have more of a point than just that.
Outside of the conversation about vertical range, there's nothing wrong with the overall framework for boons, it's completely workable. It probably could be changed in a few ways, but there's no pressing need for it to be changed.
The individual boon perks, too, are doing pretty fine. Circle of Healing is a REALLY good perk, Exponential CAN be a really good perk if you get a bit lucky, Shadow Step is extremely serviceable and potentially very impactful depending on context… and then sure, Dark Theory is only "okay" and Illumination is actually weak, but we can clearly see the majority of boon perks are completely fine.
What boon perks are is unpopular. In previous conversations on the topic, when I bring up that Circle of Healing is really strong, it's not uncommon for someone to go screenshot Nightlight's pickrate for it and post that, either implying or outright stating that somehow contradicts the statement. It doesn't, though- the perk's just damn good. In a SWF it's top tier, and in solo queue it's a little inconsistent but still on average very strong. It's pretty self evident why- it halves healing times for the entire team as long as they're healing in one area on the map, which is conveniently shown to them with a glowing blue totem surrounded by a glowing blue light show.
There are a myriad of reasons why a perk might not be picked much even though it's very strong. For Circle of Healing, it wouldn't be absurd to suggest that the need for setup, the restrictive range, the inconsistency in solo queue, and the fact that people broadly tend to drop any formerly-OP perk that get nerfed down to just "very strong" would all play some part in its low pickrate. Minus the last part, those all apply to the other boons too; Shadow Step is totally fine and a potentially scary perk to buff, but you need to set it up, it has a restrictive range, the team element is inconsistent in solo queue… so on and so forth.
Why this is relevant is because it puts BHVR in a sticky spot. Say they want to revitalise boons- well, they can't just buff boons, because that'd make them OP, but they also can't balance the boons to just be good because… well, that's where we are now, and people act like we're not.
Truthfully, I'm honestly not sure how you'd go about revitalising boons and making them more popular without just giving up and reworking them to something completely different, which I hope I don't have to justify as being a really bad outcome. You could maybe give them small buffs here and there to the framework and buff the two actually mediocre boons, but that's rolling the dice on people not just responding with "wow that's all they did huh".
on average very strong. It's pretty self evident why- it halves healing times for the entire team as long as they're healing in one area on the map
I'm going to disagree that circle of healing is good, but because mathematically it's just bad.
You're discounting most, if not all of the reasons why it's bad. Let's set the time to hunt and bless the totem completely aside, and just look at the travel time.
Circle takes 8 seconds off of the heal, but you have to be in a specific spot. Now, if you go to a gen with someone on it, heal at the gen, then jump on the gen, it takes 16 seconds off the gen time for one person. That's base kit.
If, instead, we spend the going to the boon, that person has to leave the gen, go to the boon, heal (8 seconds), and come back. So if they have to travel more than 4 seconds in one direction (and then 4 seconds back) they've lost all of the efficiency of using the boon for that heal. Same thing if the injured survivor has to wait in the boon for someone to come by.
This is your "as long as you're healing in one area of the map" that isn't being considered. It's also why people wanted CoH nerfed at all, because"heals needed to be less efficient". Well, it is less efficient than base kit now. (It was before also, because blessing time is always ignored when people talk about this perk).
Now, it's possible that gens exist in the boon, sure. Those are also likely going to be the first gens completed, because totems near gens being actively patrolled are more likely to get snuffed.
And again, this completely ignores that the blessing time is time taken away from earlier in the game (when survivors are strongest and should be on gens) and pushes it later. But if we're not even breaking even on the heal and travel time, the blessing time is a complete waste.
Circle should have been modified to have "bringing this perk allows you to self care in any lit circle of healing boon" instead. That keeps it's utility for solo queue, keeps it as a secondary objective that survivors want to do (instead of gens), and completely solves the "one perk for the whole team" problem. If everyone is using it to self care, then 4 perk slots are consumed, just like SC itself.
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@Nick said:
You're also falling for the killrate thing. Most killers are hovering around 60% killrate, which can mean anything from 8 draws and 2 wins or 6 wins and 4 losses. Killrate doesn't mean anything.
And you're just moving the goal post.
The devs don't define "wins" officially. But even if we use the community definition of 3-4k is a like win, 2k draw, and 0-1k a survivor win, the spread still looks more like 50% 3-4k, 38% 0-1k, and about 12% draws.
So by every measure (kill rate or "wins") killers are doing far, far better than survivors.
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So, tunneling, like camping, slugging, and stealth, are valid tactics when used situationally. People don't generally complain about tunneling in the end game, for example, because "resorting to tunneling" isn't a problem for reasonable people.
It's tunneling from the start of the game that changes things. For one survivor, the match is a few minutes of getting chased to death, effectively no reward (5k BP), and (if they add back in the go next penalty) even the game can consider you to "not be playing" with a DC penalty to boot.
Fit the other three survivors, the game is starting at a progress bar and hoping the unlucky person can last just long enough that you all have a chance. And given that tunneling is meta, the answer more often than not, is no, you'll still die most of the time.
Extreme tunneling (at 5 gens) turns the game into a race: can the killer eliminate one player before enough gens are completed? If so, the killer basically wins the game. If the survivors can get gens done fast enough, they might be able to escape.
And I didn't get why people defend this, because nearly everyone hates it. The survivor getting tunneled doesn't get to play and is basically punished for being unlucky and being found first, the other 3 survivors' gameplay is watching a loading screen with a win condition that they have little control over (their teammates chase ability), and even killers will complain about gen rushing.
You left 2-3 survivors completely alone to do whatever they want while you laser focused on one person, what do you think they're going to do? They're going to do gens ffs.
Tunneling is meta and popular because it's far easier for the killer to tunnel than it is for the survivor team to counter.
So, when you say things like
Also let’s not forget tunneling is a strategy it’s not a specific rule that tells killers not to tunnel.
In end game sure, but that's also why anti tunnel disables in the end game. There's nothing to stop tunneling early. We'll get to perks shortly, but nothing stops tunneling, it's just a light suggestion to "please, consider not doing that, if you don't mind".
Let’s also not forget yes killers do have gen slowdowns like pain res dms pop jolt eruption deadlock etc. but sometimes that’s not enough
Because map pressure is one of the best slowdowns in the game. If you give each survivor something they have to do, then they can't do what they want to do (gens) instead.
But since tunneling is a much simpler strategy, people will do that every game, every time. They don't learn how to keep survivors busy, and aren't learning fundamentals, they're taking easier wins and boosting their MMR above their skill level instead. Then, when they go against survivors who actually are able to handle hard tunneling (by gen rushing) they complain they tunneling stopped working.
Nearly every time this comes up, people have tried nothing else and are out of ideas. Juggling survivors is a skill, and it's one that a large number of killers don't ever learn, and don't feel they need to learn, because tunneling is so much simpler. People are generally playing extremely inefficiently, and don't even realize it because they're focused on the race of "gens vs one kill" and don't even notice that they take 1 full minute to find someone, aren't looping efficiently, are just following the survivor around the map, aren't zoning, and aren't using Intel because they think they need 4 slowdowns instead.
Last but not least let’s also not forget survivors do have easy second chance tunneling perks like DS and Off the record babysitter, and BT. And even dead hard.
This list is hilarious because these perks don't stop tunneling. BT is anti camp, and doesn't last long enough to matter for tunneling. Three of these perks are endurance based and are incompatible with each other (and since BT is base kit, you can shut down anti tunneling by hitting people off hook).
DS is one of the easiest perks to avoid for the killer in the entire game, and survivors absolutely play differently with it.
And the only non-endurance perks here are
pay to windlc.So no, lightborn is an "easy counter". It's a free, general perk that completely makes you immune to blinds. DS is paid content, has some of the most restrictions of any perk in the game, and stuns you for 1.5 seconds while stunning the killer for 4. It doesn't counter tunneling, especially since killers will just continue to tunnel you through it now that it's only use is gone.
No, early tunneling needs a punishment. If the devs are going to dictate how survivors play with crows and deleting stealth from the game then it's time to start telling killers how to play "correctly" also.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951713#Comment_3951713
You are asking me how doing other gens the killer isn't just camping and spreading it out so his spam kicks aren't effective isn't counterplay?
Or are you asking me how gen tapping has no counterplay? Because I mean… it doesn't. The survivor runs up to the gen and completely stops regression by just literally tapping the button, little to no time required. Compared to the killer needing to go through an animation just to even apply the regression.
You are asking me how doing other gens the killer isn't just camping and spreading it out so his spam kicks aren't effective isn't counterplay?
This is the same crap we heard during the 3 gen meta.
If the survivors try to break the 3 gen immediately, people say what you said: just do other gens first.
If the survivors actually did other gens first, then the response was: "yOu 3 GeNnEd YoUrSeLvEs lolololol" (and deserve to lose).
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I mean, I guess it's still technically better, but unless I'm missing something here the "slug for the 4k" situation is still basically a free kill.
They still haven't addressed that this is 4+ minutes of the where hiding is valid gameplay (and the only play), especially when gens still remain.
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We tried this before and it was a bad idea (at least with DS).
Having anti tunnel disable in the end game was one of the few changes that has continued to be a consistently good idea out of 6.1 over the years.
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"count to ten" tech is too hard these days?
Cause even in the worst case scenario, where you pick up while standing in the open exit gate, you can walk 11-15 seconds without a wiggle and they can't make it back to the starting point after the unhook in 10 seconds.
This is really, really unnecessary.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951358#Comment_3951358
Hiding is important, but hiding too much is straight up a bad play. Yes, if the killer is between the hook and you, you might need to stealth, but that shouldn't take anywhere near the time it takes to get crows, much less the time it takes to get enough crows for noise notifications to reveal your location. You are "AFK" when you haven't done an action considered to contributing for 10 seconds. After than it takes 90 seconds to get 3 crows. This amount of time is lengthened when you are moving or near the killer, although I am not certain of the amount, in my experience even if you need to stealth to the hook, you are granted more than enough time as long as you were doing something meaningful before you came for the hook instead of running around like a headless chicken and while moving it takes at least 1 minute to get even a single crow above your head. By the time you get a single crow, the survivor on the hook will be nearly dead if you started going to the hook the instant they got hooked in that time frame, that is far too much time doing nothing. Currently the system is a little too punishing under certain very specific circumstances mostly related to perk and killer power interactions, but in most cases it works perfectly.
As for slugging for the 4k, I frankly do not care. The game considers hatch escapes to be "draws", and I consider a match a loss whether my team got 3kd or 4kd so I really do not care what happens at that point in the game.
Hiding is important, but hiding too much is straight up a bad play.
Yeah, we basically agree on this.
You are "AFK" when you haven't done an action considered to contributing for 10 seconds. After than it takes 90 seconds to get 3 crows
Yes, I know how the system works. And it functions because it defines what is considered gameplay.
The game doesn't have context to decide what is gameplay or not, it just has a very restrictive list.
And, for the record, "unhooking* does not remove crows. So if unhooking a survivor isn't considered "contributing" then what the hell else are you doing during an unhook? I can understand that unhook spamming isn't what you want, but completing an unhook isn't gameplay? Excuse me?
Currently the system is a little too punishing
Yes to put it mildly.
As for slugging for the 4k, I frankly do not care.
You should.
This is a case where hiding for a decent amount of time is valid gameplay. When there's only one survivor standing, and any number of gens left, the only correct play is to hide for hatch. That's it.
And you have to hide for at least 4 minutes while the 3rd survivor bleeds out. All of that is outside of your control, and specifically in the killers control.
This would be like, if "anti tunnel" didn't disable in end game. "What else are they supposed to do?" And yet, the game is actively punishing the player for making the only valid play.
Slugging for the 4k is the most obvious situation where this system is broken and should be scrapped.
And for the record, you do care, because you are incredibly fixated on the MMR part. If they called hatch a "kill" instead of a "draw", would you give people hatch?
I'm taking about gameplay, you're focused on the extrinsic part (MMR), outside the match entirely. You do care, just that you care about the part that doesn't have anything to do with the match.
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They did address this, just in the worst way possible.
Crows basically guarantee the 4k now. So all of the complaints about this were ignored and they likely won't do anything about it.
"Being slugged for 4 minutes sucks, so we'll reveal your teammate so you're only slugged for like 3 minutes instead" is what they gave us.
BHVR does not give a single ######### about you lying on the ground in this situation. That's the message from this patch.
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The crows are a huge problem with defining gameplay and removing player agency.
Hiding is a core part of the game. If the killer is between you and the hooked survivor, you aren't going to walk directly through the killer to go for an unhook like you're brainless, you're going to walk around stealthily trying not to be seen.
There is nothing wrong with stealth in moderation. The onlytime stealth is even a problem is when done excessively: so that's basically all they are doing and nothing else. Hostage situations have already been dealt with by deleting distortion and the 10 minute abandon feature for killers who just really really struggle with their role of hunter.
This doesn't target extreme stealth, it doesn't even target stealth at all.
This system has a list of 4 or 5 very specific things and says "were going to assume you're afk and not trying. To convince us otherwise, you have to check one of these 5 boxes every 60 seconds, or we punish you" .
This system does two things that this community cries about all the time for insignificant things, but crows actually does this:
This afk system tells you how to play, removes player agency, and has effectively deleted an entire tactic from the game.
People have said that about camping and tunneling deterrents in the past (despite the fact that these are still meta), and these strategies are similar to hiding: situationally, and in moderation they're fine and good gameplay. It's only when used excessively that it's a problem.
But the crowd don't take situations into account here. Nearly everyone recognizes that "camping and tunneling is basically all the killer can do in end game", and that's why those systems, perks, etc disable at end game.
Crows doesn't take that into account, at all. Slugging for the 4k, the game is over, and at least 4 minutes of stealth is the only gameplay available to the last survivor standing.
But instead, you get crows. It's a free kill, because punishing the player, and assuming the worst (you're just not doing anything) is how the system is designed.
It needs to be reworked. Period.
Because if not, then the only way BHVR can remain consistent is to use ham fisted, broad changes for the anti camp, anti tunnel, and anti slug.
Because if, say, anti tunnel were implemented the same as crows were: a timer starts when you hook a survivor, and you have a limited time to hook a different survivor. If you don't complete one of those 3 specific actions, the survivor team gets to know where you are until you do change targets. No accounting for end game, situation, or whatever.
That sounds awful, but that's how crows are implemented. Assume the worst of the player, dictate how they play, and punish them for not doing it right.
And, for the record, I don't think this should be implemented in this way, for any of these tactics. Tunneling, camping, slugging, and hiding are perfectly fine gameplay, situationally and in moderation.
You shouldn't just delete these from the game, but that's what 9.0 crows have done to stealth. It's too much, and by a lot. And it needs to be undone, so we can get reasonable measures for "anti tunneling", "anti camp", "anti slugging", and "anti hiding" that don't just delete those from the game entirely.
Because right now, BHVR's only consistent stance moving forward is to go overboard, continue to remove player agency, and just delete the other 3 next. I think that's a bad idea. Almost as bad as them being inconsistent about which players can have agency in their game or not.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951302#Comment_3951302
That's a common math mistake that comes up way too much on the forums and has been talked about extensively.
Basically, if you have a range of data (0k, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k) and you average them out (2.4k), the average of the data does not mean that is most common data point. In DbD's case the 2k is probably the least common occurrence of the 5 possibilities.
@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951313#Comment_3951313
Without accurate data from the devs we shoudnt even discuss kill rates escape rates tbh and just go off of flst gameplay
The devs don't give out this data. The closest thing we have is nightlight, which isn't a complete sample of the entire player base, is generally going to be English speaking contributors, and is submitted data, which could be hand selected by contributors. It's not great, but it's all we have.
Nightlight currently has the spread:
- 4k (27.87%)
- 0k (22.89%)
- 1k (18.64%)
- 3k (16.7%)
- 2k (13.9%)
Which, while the percentages aren't going to be perfect, is probably similar enough to take away that 4k and 0k are the most common outcomes, and 2k is the least common. (Which is how this data has been for a couple years now from this source).
That also aligns with how people talk here. A 2k should be "close" and could go either way.
But most people complain about getting stomped (gens fly 0k, or games just being unwinnable early for survivor is likely a 4k). "I didn't have a chance" or "I have to sweat to win" summarizes the majority of the complaints on this forum.
You can still get a 60% kill rate just from the fact that 4k is weighted a bit heavier, 0k is next but not quite the same, and the other results still contain kills in the mix. It's obviously going to vary a bit (and usually 3k is higher than 1k when I look at this data, but not today for some reason).
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@TheTom20 said:
Are you not able to pick them up or do a gen? killer can't guard both at once
Short answer: no.
Longer answer:
So, as the slug, you can't do anything other than crawl. And crawling in a direction is going to at least make the killer think that's where your teammate is, either you're ratting them out or going for help. So they can basically just lay there.
So let's say the stars align, and the only survivor standing has perfect knowledge if where the killer is at all times. The optimal scenario.
If the killer camps the slug, you can hop on a gen and avoid crows. When you finish that gen, you've lit a giant beacon and loudly announced your location. And since gens take about 90 seconds, and bleeding out is 4 minutes... Congratulations, you now have to run the killer in chase for at least 2 minutes. Hatch isn't up, and at best you have to open the door. At worst, you still have gens to do. So you're dead.
If the killer goes to patrol gens, you could go for the rescue. But you're really just prolonging the inevitable. You can't really get gens done (maybe, if the last gen is almost done already, but the killer is patrolling gens and is probably watching it until it hits zero), and the next time one of you gets into chase, you're gonna get slugged again for the 4k and you're back in the same spot. Or, the killer catches you together and the game is just over.
So your options are basically:
- Do a gen, revealing your location, leading to death.
- Go for rescue, prolonging the inevitable. Or dying, depending on luck.
- Hide, hopefully avoid crows, and wait for hatch to spawn. (This is the only realistic hope to escape in most situations)
And now with the afk crows system, the third option, the only one with any chance of working, is also basically just "reveal your location and still die".
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950358#Comment_3950358
It's a statement I made a while back that @Firellius has been kind enough to credit me for:
'Good survivors are unbeatable, ergo, if the killer won, the survivors must not have been good'
Original usage.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934304#Comment_3934304
Thankfully the word 'ergo' is not used a lot so I could use search to find it.
Ah, thank you.
And it makes sense now. Well said. Lol
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950341#Comment_3950341
I refer you to Crogers' law.
I'm not familiar with this one, and Google thinks I'm searching for an attorney. Could you elaborate?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3943038#Comment_3943038
I think the devs go back and forth on healing because there's a large subset of players for whom the game stagnates when they're injured. They simply avoid gens and will float around the map, maybe seek out chests, until they're healed up. This is actually why Empathy is a staple in my builds. I see players doing this and often have to go out of my way to heal them up so they'll actually get back in the game. You even see it when COH is in play, that injured person who just stands in the radius and waits and waits…
We know the devs were aiming to minimise self-healing and make healing more of a teamwork thing, not just with the old BK and COH nerfs, but also subsequent medkit nerfs. Reverting BK now tells me that maybe that hasn't worked out as well as they intended. There are plenty of players who know when you need to prioritise gens over healing but there's just as many players who don't understand (or care about) that. I'd imagine the devs have stats to support this. I say just give those players BK back. WMI and WGLF fall into that teamwork aspect, where again the responsibility falls on your team mates.
I think the devs go back and forth on healing because there's a large subset of players for whom the game stagnates when they're injured.
I'll also add here that the games meta varies a lot by region. Every time they post top perks, nightlight ends up being very very wrong about self care. It currently sits at #21 for most used, and usually official stats have it in the top 3.
The Asia region has a very strong healing meta, and (as far as I'm aware) always has, even through SC nerfs, and CoH nerfs.
Complaints on these forums also switch back and forth. If healing is decent, some killers don't like the extra health state, even though healing means survivors aren't on gens. When healing is useless, those same killers complain that survivors aren't spending time healing and are simply "gen rushing while injured". There's no making those people happy, unless survivors start the game downed (which they would then complain about unbreakable).
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949722#Comment_3949722
I'm not saying that it wasn't impactful, but the extra distance gained from .3 of a second is 1.2m.
The thing is that all of those buffs compounded. And we already know how "action speed" stacking or compounding can make a big difference from small numbers.
Take your "it's just .3 seconds" example:
The killer wipes their blade for .3 seconds less, and starts moving at full speed that much sooner. The survivor getting less distance in that time also.
So with just the two changes, the amount of time it took to catch back up to that survivor was reduced by something like 4.5 seconds.
That's a lot, when taking about chase and catching up.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949366#Comment_3949366
I hope you have the same balance guidelines for phase 1 and phase 2.
Because you think the phase 1 survivor changes “should only punish extreme behaviors”, I hope you also think the phase 2 killer changes “should only punish extreme behaviors”
Because you think the phase 1 survivor changes “should err on the false negative side”, I hope you also think the phase 2 killer changes “should err on the false negative side”
Yes, I do.
And I said as much in this thread and elsewhere. Repeatedly:
This same mentality applies to camping, tunneling, and slugging btw… situationally and in moderation these are gameplay, it's only problematic when they are used excessively - just like stealth
I've also mentioned this for years, that camping, tunneling, slugging, and stealth are all situational tactics that have a time and a place in the game. Yet all of these can be problematic when taken to extremes. So when the time is "always" and the place is "everywhere", then players are likely using these excessively and we should address that. Ideally, we should address that without significantly impacting those situations where these are actually valid whenever possible.
That is a consistent attitude, and one I will continue to repeat.
That being said:
The devs also need to be consistent with their responses to all of these. Which is, honestly, the only stance that actually matters to the game.
They looked at excessive stealth, and ignored all of my (and others) feedback regarding "here are situations you should consider when implementing new AFK crows and go next" and took the hardest line they could've possibly taken. They've effectively deleted stealth, even situations where stealth is valid, or the only correct play.
So, just to have my thoughts out there again: tunneling and camping, particularly at end game (where it's basically the only play), is not what most people complain about. That's a valid situation to camp and tunnel. Any "anti-" solution to these should ideally target camping or tunneling from the start of the game (colloquially "at 5 gens"), but leave end game alone. What that looks like I'm not sure, but I'm not a dev.
Slugging, similarly, has valid situations: sabo or boil over plays, another survivor lurking nearby for a flashlight or pallet save, or even an obvious DS play, are all valid reasons to slug someone for a bit. Excessive slugging, imo, is playing the match by slugging everyone from the start of the game with no intention of hooking. And I'd also personally prefer if any slugging solution considered shortening the "slug for the 4k" situation, which is just simply a waste of everyone's time (I've recommended the slug having the option to bleed out faster, or simply die on the ground after hitting "find help" in the past, which doesn't change the game's outcome). Again, what that looks like, I'm not entirely sure. But any solution they implement should take all of this into account.
Now,
In order for the devs to be consistent with their opinion and approach for the game (the only opinion that actually matters in the long run), one of two things must happen. Either:
- Anti-camp, anti-tunnel, and anti-slug in phase 2 are also implemented in a ham-fisted, broad manner in the same way that "anti-hiding" is, right now, on live. That would also effectively delete all three of these from the game, including the valid cases. I think it's a terrible idea, but it's the only way for them to be consistent with their approach.
- They immediately rework the anti-hiding and go next systems entirely to allow for valid reasons for survivors to hide. This, at minimum, should include the slug for the 4k issue, where hiding for up to 4 minutes is valid stealth with any gens remaining. Then, in phase 2, implement reasonable anti-camp, anti-tunnel, and anti-slugging measures that also take situational gameplay into account.
I should hope that every single person, regardless of which "side" you are on, should agree with me that #2 is the correct approach. It requires BHVR to fix this debacle they've created and not take player agency completely away from players. All of these tactics (camping, tunneling, slugging, and hiding) have a place and can be good gameplay, when not used excessively. We need to target the excessive use, and not impact the tactical, situational use.
If anyone thinks that #1 is the correct approach, then I really have nothing to say other than that they are wrong.
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This is the one big thing they needed to make sure was accounted for in this afk crows system and they failed hard.
People have been asking them to "do something about slugging for the 4k" since hatch was reworked years ago. Apparently they decided it should just be two guaranteed kills instead.
BHVR seems to be completely not understanding that the survivor role only works if the players have hope. This entire patch has been "we're taking any chance you have away in many situations, and also here's a punishment for feeling hopeless".
At this point, it's just shouting into a vacuum. I've personally tried to point out that hiding for up to 6-7 minutes is valid gameplay in this situation (4 minutes of bleed out, a minute or so of hatch search, and 2 minutes of door mind games). For years, on these forums.
And that's literally the only play available when gens still remain here. Now there's no choice, no play except dying.
But hey, apparently being sneaky, or stealthy isn't the gameplay the devs want. They listened to people who want survivors to stand in the open next to gens (but ideally not touching the gens) so the killer can find them easily. That's the system we got.
Pretty good job so far.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949002#Comment_3949002
And which update killed Overcharge and CoB?
Couldn't possibly be 6.7, right?
Sure, but the whole topic is the 3 gen meta, which continued through, again: eruption nerf, cob and overcharge nerf, skull merchant rework #1, and was finally stopped by the regression limit.
So for about 9 months, people still continued to 3 gen relentlessly after circle of healing. Which was your very wrong assessment of the situation.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948961#Comment_3948961
Because Circle of Healing meant that every chase was against a healthy survivor. M1 killers had their hits healed faster than they could reasonably deal them.
I'm just going to point out for everyone else that this is wildly (hilariously) incorrect.
Patch 6.7.0 (March 2023): circle of healing nerf, medkit nerf. This removed CoH self care and also removed it from being meta.
Patch 7.5.0 (January 2024) nearly a year later, generator regression limit added to finally kill off the 3 gen meta.
These two things were not related.
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I genuinely miss the player mindset the most.
Chase used to be important, and specifically pressuring survivors off gens. Not that tunneling didn't exist, but certainly not to the extent we see today.
Killers used to focus on being in chase as much as possible, to the point where people literally said "gens aren't worth kicking" because the 3s kick animation was a waste of time.
All of that changed with the gen kick and 3 gen metas and all we hear now is that "slowdown is all that matters".
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948969#Comment_3948969
I never claimed to know what was going through this guy's head. I said that that's why so many people resorted to 3 genning
So, not reading one mind, but everyone's mind.
Got it.
At this point, I'm just here because watching these mental gymnastics is hilarious. You're either a comedian or the most disingenuous person I've ever seen. I'm choosing to go with the former because, again, hilarious.
At this point, just re read this conversation thread.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948961#Comment_3948961
Because Circle of Healing meant that every chase was against a healthy survivor. M1 killers had their hits healed faster than they could reasonably deal them.
Interesting.
Though now I feel obligated to say:
Nobody knows what was going through this guy's head. So you trying to say that you know what he was thinking is messed up.
See what I did there?
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948955#Comment_3948955
Exactly! Nobody knows what was going through this guy's head. So you trying to say that you know what he was thinking is messed up.
So this non sequitur is exhausting.
This was meta.
I'd like to hear why you think nearly everyone who played killer adopted this strategy.Especially since this strategy involves:
- Not committing to chase
- Not downing survivors
- Not leaving a 3 gen
- Kicking gens until an hour passes and the game awards you a win by default.
Those are the facts.
ETA: changing my approach here. Instead of speculation, I want you to show me in my original post to you (with the links) where I say anything about mentality, intent, or speculation.
Because all I gave you was facts, and you went off on a tangent because you can't address those facts directly.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948942#Comment_3948942
So… you have no idea what was going through this random average player's head.
What I also want to know is what "the best team in the world" was doing playing against some "random average player." Shouldn't they be off in some ridiculous MMR getting slapped by a p100 Blight?
If anything, this shows how absolutely absurd matchmaking is in this game. Average players shouldn't get matched up with comp teams. If that means that the comp team has to sit in matchmaking for an hour until Lilith Omen or a comp Nurse comes available, then so be it.
This isn't a random game.
The killer was a streamer who challenged them and they played a custom match.
The mentality here doesn't matter, because you don't know what anyone else is thinking either. You keep bringing this up, but it doesn't prove or disprove anything. Fixating on it is meaningless because neither of us is psychic.
(Or maybe I am psychic, and i know for a fact you can't know what I'm thinking because you aren't. You can't disprove that either)
The only thing that matters here is the action, and, as I said before, people did this relentlessly, every match for almost a year, until it was finally patched out after several attempts to get people to stop.
This isn't PVP, or chase. This was simply abusing overpowered perks and flawed game design for trivially easy wins. The fact that it was frustrating to the survivors was a huge bonus for a lot of killers as well.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948913#Comment_3948913
Can you read this particular killer player's mind? Unless they came out and said that that's what they were doing, then you can't say that they were trying to wait out the clock.
Here's a link to the infamous "chess merchant" thread.
@dbdthegame said:
Today, Team Eternal - the top comp team in the game - played against a P100 Skull Merchant streamer, who I won't name, who camped a 3-gen from the start of the match on Torment Creek. The entire match lasted 50 minutes, and only through perfect coordination were Eternal able to break the 3-gen. If it takes almost enough time for the game to end for the best team in the world to break a 3-gen, what's the average pub solo Q team expected to do?
There is absolutely no excuse for this killer to continue to exist in her current configuration. She needs to be killswitched until something better can be made of her.
EDIT: This game also showcased a critical design flaw with Overcharge, that was never removed when the perk was nerfed: the perk still guarantees a skill check, which regresses 15% of the generator if it is failed. Team Eternal - the best team in the world - failed the skill check numerous times. An infinitely recharging difficult skill check that regresses 15% of a generator shouldn't exist, and is just as problematic as old Call of Brine and old Overcharge were for the game. The skill check either needs to have a hefty cooldown attached to it, or be significantly easier to hit (I'm talking 2x the current size). As it stands, Overcharge is much stronger than Call of Brine, and Call of Brine is just a much worse version of Surveillance.
This player was one of many in this meta that used this strategy.
Here's a video link showcasing that game. This is one of the best comp teams in the world being held hostage by some random, average killer player. No attempt to down, commit to chase, the only thing that matters was holding a 3 gen and then letting the match expire after an hour.
This was the "3 gen meta", where killers would just hold gens the entire match and not leave the 3 gen, not even down people, because they just won because the perks were overpowered. And this was meta.
I took a break from the game for a year because of this "strategy" of people playing "gen kick simulator". And they did it because it made the game PVE (with the extra bonus of getting to defeat actual players) and took basically zero skill.
It took several rounds of perk nerfs, a killer rework, and even then the only thing that stopped people doing it was the addition of the regression limit.
There's no defending this.
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@Royval said:
there are anti tunnel perks in the game keep blaming the killers for survivors being bad
@Plague_Priest said:
They've provided, what, 8 anti-tunneling perks now? With 3 of them good enough to be considered meta. Survivors will do anything but change their build. Maybe also consider not unhooking the second that the killer turns a corner. They're still around the corner.
DS, OTR, DH for the person being tunneled, two of those are endurance based and are incompatible with each other (as well as base kit endurance off hook for anti camping). Making these trivially easy to bypass.
Babysitter and StB for the unhooker.
Despite all of these, tunneling is meta, and these "light suggestions" do literally nothing to stop people from tunneling. It's a speed bump while running one person over, that most killers don't even consider for a single second.
I don't control my teammates perks or loadout choices.
Tunneling also ruins the match for all survivors. One person gets tunneled out, doesn't get to play a well rounded game, maybe 5k BP, and if they add the "go next" penalty back might get a DC penalty to boot.
The other 3 get "gen progress bar simulator" and have to hope that the matchmaker lottery and RNG game their 4th teammate enough time that they even have a chance at escape. Because if any of those factors say "not today" you just lose the match at the 3rd hook.
And that's a modern match of dbd in 2025.
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I've never liked the idea of base kit unbreakable, and I'm genuinely curious what situation people think this would be good in.
For killers, there are some situations where slugging is the right call. Sabo plays, boil over, having a lurker with a flashlight nearby, are all valid reasons to leave someone on the ground (or drop them). Base kit UB removes that.
But this also doesn't help survivors. The most common scenario is the meta "slug for the 4k". So what good is base kit unbreakable doing in this case? At best, you're just prolonging an already lost game, and it doesn't change the fact that you can't really get gens done with just two people left. At worst, you have the killer playing whack a mole for 4ish minutes while the slug bleeds out, pops up to get instantly slugged again.
The only case this might help is if the killer is just slugging excessively at the start of the game, and never hooking. But there has to be a better solution that also takes the other two scenarios into account also.
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@Lixadonna said:
This is their fix for Slugging for the 4K. Get one on Hook and Mori the other.
Unfortunately, slugging for the 4k isn't any less viable.
Because now, if you slug the 3rd, the 4th has two options: do gens and give away their position, or hide and let the giga buffed afk crows give away their position.
Both options lead to the last 2 survivors dying. So it's like they just incentivized slug for the 4k even more, somehow.
Distortion died for this, btw. So killers could "find the last one or two hiding", yet here we are.