AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941014#Comment_3941014
And I'm telling you, that you can't physically fix people just giving up because they give up over the dumbest things. That is what I don't think you understand. There is no fixing it.
People give up over anything. They give up over unfixable things, you will NEVER fix that problem outside of just straight up punishing giving up. You can't fix a survivor having a bad first chase. You can't fix a survivor not liking a certain killer. You can't fix a survivor not liking a certain map. You just can't.
If they had a bad 5 past matches, DON'T QUEUE. That's the fix. Stop queueing if you aren't having fun. Like???
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941027#Comment_3941027
Yes yes, let's keep using kill rates under the post where I've said that using kill rates makes you look silly because it's an objectively flawed stat. Thank you for proving my point.
And I'm telling you, that you can't physically fix people just giving up because they give up over the dumbest things. That is what I don't think you understand. There is no fixing it.
This is a huge overstatement of the problem though.
People have always given up over "killer they didn't like" or "bad map" or "downed in 3 seconds". People have not become more petty over time.
The "go next" epidemic has gotten severely worse because of game balance changes. Period. The devs have openly, explicitly, and deliberately spent 3 years now to increase the kill rates. Survivors are, objectively, dying more often than before.
And, honestly, that wouldn't be a problem by itself. It's absolutely possible to make it so that playing a match where you don't escape can still be fun. DBD used to be that way.
But in the pursuit of making the game objectively more lethal for survivors, they've removed a lot of the "fun" aspects. Unfortunately, they've made the survivor experience more hopeless in the process.
And any of the issues that could help lessen that burden are put on the back burner. Literally. Phase 2 is the "anti camp, anti tunnel, anti slug" portion of the qol changes, and "not getting to actually play the match" has been a top complaint of survivors for about ten years now. These issues have also objectively been getting worse as they continue to "increase kill rates" through map, tile, and pallet reworks, reduced chase times, removing stealth as a play style (in their "hide and seek game"), and forcing more reliance on your teammates.
No, instead of addressing any of those issues, their first priority is "anti go next", with the "promise" that maybe, some day they might look into the core reasons why those matches are hopeless. At least, until people burn the forums down over the next few months and they backtrack most of phase 2, (which people have already started posting on the forums with this goal in mind).
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
So what is the point here? If the kill rate is artificially high due to going next, that means that the kill rate in “real” matches where survivors actually try is lower than the 60% reported average. So to keep the target 60% kill rate, killers would need to be buffed and/or survivors nerfed. That would seem to go against the preferred narrative for a lot of folks here…
That is the point.
There are a small number of very, very loud people, on these forums at least, who put an insane amount of ego into the game.
If they lose, it can't possibly be because they made a mistake, or have anything to learn. That's impossible in their mind. They're "max MMR" gods at the game, and probably the second best players ever (right behind whichever streamer tells them exactly how to think).
So if you believe you can't make a mistake, and you struggle with the game, or - entity forbid, you lose a match, it can't possibly be your perfect gameplay at fault.
No, the game is broken. It has to be.
So, anything other than buffing killers, while nerfing survivors is simply unacceptable to some people. Because admitting that the game is balanced, or even stacked in your favor, when you lose, means you have to face the idea that you aren't the perfect, (second) best player to ever exist.
And that just simply can't be possible.
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@SetoKaiba said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940393#Comment_3940393
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to accurately predict the outcome especially with these devs.
I mean, the last time they announced "anti camping" we got anti FACE camping.
I don't think anyone has found it difficult to stand 5 extra feet farther from the hook, eventually (take your time, no rush) to completely bypass this feature.
So, I genuinely don't think your "the sky is falling, everything is awful" approach has any basis in history, let alone the zero details they've actually announced so far.
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@NaveR said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939618#Comment_3939618
Dropped pallets and breakable walls: nonexistent, old rift challenge: "grab a survivor off a gen on your third blink with nurse" (yeah, this one exists) or something else not really doable or done during the match (red glyph). I don't really play nurse, but whatever. Old rift quests exist and some might not be doable at some point for whatever reason. I just want to have the same option, not to mention the fact that having this option for survivors should have additional trigger conditions.
Why are you trying so hard at arguing over a theoretical proposal for the introduction of the same option survivors have, but for killers? That's just outright bullying. Like, imagine killers were given to abandon matches upon gen completion and when you tried to propose the introduction of the "abandon feature" for survivors you faced hundreds of comments, including ones from an official representative, saying that it shouldn't happen and giving arguments from kind of acceptable to atrocious. Just imagine and enjoy the feeling of unfairness.
Why are you trying so hard at arguing over a theoretical proposal for the introduction of the same option survivors have, but for killers?
Because these are not the same scenarios.
Let's solve this problem another way. Let's get rid of the "abandon feature" entirely:
Instead, when a survivor is downed they now have the base kit ability to injure the killer. And after a brief cooldown, they can also down the killer. In fact, doing this not only causes the waiting period to be shorter (the bleed out timer) and forces the killer to stop humping the survivor on the ground, but there's now also a possibility that the slugged survivor can turn this scenario into an escape.
That checks every. single. box. for what mirrored options the killer has available to them. And it doesn't even include the killer's option to ignore the bad behavior completely and go earn BP for a couple minutes.
So, while I think this is (also) an awful idea that shouldn't be put into the game, you seem to think these should be identical scenarios. So you have the burden to defend it: Why shouldn't survivors have the same options as killers in this scenario? Your entire argument is that these are the "same", so why don't survivors "have the same options" here?
(The answer is because they aren't the same, and they shouldn't have this option, which is my stance, and coincidentally BHVR's stance also).
If you also think this is a terrible idea, then maybe you should consider that killers in the EGC are not in the "same scenario" as survivors here. Not in the slightest.
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939690#Comment_3939690
And they have not given every killer the tools to do that consistently. It is almost impossible to spread pressure on killers without map mobility or lethality. So again yeah you are going to have to tunnel sometimes if you want to have a chance at winning. I am not saying you need to do it from the beginning of the game but like every killer youtuber I have ever watched has said that you should try to identify the weakest link in the survivor team from the start of the match and attempt to get them out before two gens are left.
They've spent 3 years giving you tools for this.
Maps were made smaller, tiles, loops, and pallets weakened, dead zones are weighted heavier now. They spent at least 2 years buffing 1-3 killers every patch individually. All of that reduces chase times, which is the entire point of my post.
They got chase down to 60 seconds per survivor (on average) for the entire match, so killers (on average) are finishing chases in under 30 seconds. That's insane.
Map mobility and lethality? Have you seen the recent killers? Every single killer seems to come with haste, map traversal, and probably some kind of additional slowdown mechanic.
And even then, I highly, highly contest that these are required for killers to do well. The most lethal killer right now is Freddy, at a whopping 71% kill rate. And that's across the board, at every MMR. So survivors who do "git gud" are still going to die to him about twice as often as they escape. Freddy is generally one of the poster boys for "weak m1" killer.
ETA: What you really mean by "they haven't given tools for this" is slowdown. You want (need?) gens to take 5 minutes each. They reduced chase times for you on top of adding extra gen time, and nerfing prove and BNP, and people still want to go back to Gen kick and 3 gen metas, because playing pve gen kick simulator is all sone people know how to do.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939122#Comment_3939122
Fun fact, if we look at the game as 1 player vs 4 individual players who each have their own win condition and only have one shared opponent, the match comes out for it to be fair for the single player with 4 opponents, it's a 38.5% escape rate. If the game was instead 1 vs 4 players who all win/tie/lose together with no individual win conditions, then each survivor would need a 44.2% escape rate, but thats simply not how the game is designed. Considering BHVR released stats for experienced players shows experienced players have a solo/duo/trio escape rate in the low 40's%, and 4 man squads have their survivors at a 48% escape rate (ALL of them above the 38.5% escape rate), at experienced levels of play, the game is objectively survivor favored.
It's always a close call on these forums wether reading comprehension, or math, is the worst I've ever seen in my life. Every time I think I have a solid answer, we get a post like this.
I'll just say I need to see your "work" on where this "38.5%" number is coming from.
Because any the this comes up, people consider it like "the toss of a coin" or "the roll of a die", which are independent events. Survivor kills are not independent, because the entire point of things like hard tunneling is to kill one survivor early because "early enough" can make the rest of the kills almost trivial.
So here are the real facts: 41% overall escape rate.
So if you consider it as a 1v1v1v1v1, then survivors are losing more than the killer. Flat out. In every group size, category, and MMR.
If you consider it as a 1v4, with the standard 3k+ killer win, 2k draw, and 0-1k survivor win, then it's currently about 45.7% killer wins, 13.5% draws, and 40.8% survivor wins. So killer is still winning more.
By the actual data here, "the game is survivor sided" isn't holding any water. If anything, it supports exactly the opposite.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939946#Comment_3939946
Yup, it's important as a survivor to have good positioning, I agree. If I'm running out into the open with nothing nearby and I go down, that's on me. Generally survivors have full control over where they go down. It's all about positioning yourself well whenever your area of operation is. If a killer starts chasing, it's important to bring the killer to a position that's better for you. Avoid deadzones, and be perceptive if stealth is in play. If pallets are low, then ensure you have an exit plan where there at least a window or a loop with them. Pallets are a precious resource, so it is vital that survivors play smart and dont waste them - you'll want as many as you can in the endgame. That's also why experienced survivors may choose to go down instead of using a god pallet so that god pallet is available later in the match when someone is on death hook. It's all about resource management of pallets and even hook states. If survivors are just blowing through resources willy nilly with no thought, that's a problem they should need to deal with, not a perk that just undoes the risk.
So sure, pallets may get reduced, but loops and windows are always available. If you're going down drag the killer to them, then hit them with that DS, and bam, you're extending the chase even longer for your teammates. A single loop can add a lot of time to a chase. Thats the power of DS.
This guy plays entirely perkless and is very good at showing survivors how to effectively play. I definitely recommend checking him out. Getting to one of these loops alone is worth DS' weight in gold.
I'm not sure what point you think you're trying to make when you pick garden of joy as the example.
Having trouble finding a pallet? Try Gideon's! Although you can't even choose your map with an offering guaranteed outside of custom lobbies.
Now do the same thing on rotten fields. I won't wait.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
It's in a great position as long as long as you remember it's intended to be used near a pallet, loop, or window.
Except you aren't just carrying those around in your pocket.
Maps, tiles, and pallets have been consistently nerfed over the years, and you don't get to choose where you are hooked, or where the dead zones are.
In fact, the only way you might even have a chance at getting to a pallet is to have a perk that shows you where to go immediately... And Windows of opportunity is literally one of the most complained about perks.
If your "anti tunnel" protection relies heavily on your opponent's choice of hook, RNG, and you running a supporting perk, then that is not a perk that is "in a good place".
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Best of luck with your recovery.
Teammates will always be incredibly hit or miss, and personally I'm convinced that it's a deliberate feature of the MMR system to intentionally put a "weak link" on the team.
If you can find even one friend to play duo with it can make a big difference. You have at least once person you can rely on, or even joke about things with that can help make the match more fun (did... Did sable just flashbang herself?)
Kindred can help a lot, at least the useful teammates will know when the killer is camping.
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I think it speaks for itself that after 2 years of 3 second DS and another year of 4 second, that we have "anti tunnel" on the road map.
Clearly 5 second DS was the minimum that even gave killers any kind of pause, and it's current state is insufficient.
Now, maybe that would change if the anti tunnel is meaningful to actually inhibit or deter tunneling. If the upcoming mechanic is actually useful then 4 second DS could be reasonable.
But "maybe" in a future patch that we have no details for yet, means that DS has been undertuned for a long time.
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937557#Comment_3937557
And what is the killer supposed to do other than tunnel when gens pop too fast? The best way to stop gens from popping is to remove a survivor from play. It is better slowdown than all the slowdown perks combined. Like you are coming at this from the perspective that every killer can get into chase quickly get a down quickly and get into the next chase quickly but that isn't the case at all. Most just don't have the mobility for that and fewer have the chase potential for that.
Like as a survivor you want to spread hook states out because it gives your team more time to get the gens done and get everyone out. How would playing into that at all benefit the killer?So there's a very fundamental way that I look at the game that is, apparently, not how many other people on these forums see things. So let me explain a bit:
There are 2 main premises for how I play:
- The default for survivors is to do gens and leave. If they have nothing else to do, they will do gens.
- The primary method the killer has to slow down the game is to give as many survivors something to do at the same time as possible.
So I aim to get into a match, establish pressure as early as possible, and give as many survivors something to do at the same time as I can. So, generally speaking, I don't want to camp the first hook because that survivor is already not doing gens and I need to give someone else something to do other than gens. If I leave the hook, then one is on hook, and another survivor will come to rescue automatically. I don't need to wait around to witness that, and I certainly don't need to be nearby to chase either of those two. They already aren't doing gens… I need to give the others (who are doing gens) something else to do.
So, ideally, I have one on hook, one going for rescue/recovery, and one in chase. That makes only one survivor on gens. If they get greedy, and leave someone on hook, then I have the potential to have two on hook, and the other two both have to rescue, so no one is on gens at all.
Compare that to hard camping or hard tunneling early: If you hook one and stand around the hook, you're investing all of your time on a survivor who already can't do gens. So even if one person comes to rescue, that's a minimum of two on gens you're just letting do whatever they want. And if they have a way to confirm that you're camping, then they can just leave one on hook and then you have all 3 doing gens.
A similar thing happens with tunneling, where if you just chase one person, the rescuer can go right back to gens. So you put maximum pressure on one person, and you have 3 survivors doing gens behind you. It's literally a race to see if you can get one person out completely before the gens are done. And this is where many people complain about "gens are too fast" because they're not able to hard tunnel fast enough at a certain point.
So, to me, if I "spread pressure", I can end up with only one person dedicated to gens (maybe less, if I have other tasks like Devour Hope or my pig hats), as opposed to 2-3 survivors dedicated to gens. That, right there, is effectively 2-3 times the slowdown that hard camping or hard tunneling gives you.
I also believe that Lethal Pursuer is the best perk in the game. Early game is when the survivors are strongest, and establishing pressure as early as possible is important. LP removes the guesswork and waste of time "searching". THis is another big difference, is that I feel like many players who complain about this are running 4 slowdown perks, then taking forever to find the first survivor and close out the chase. Yes, of course "gens fly" if you've effectively done nothing for the first minute of the match and are wandering around blindly.
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@Shot_thru_a_cannon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927227#Comment_3927227
Why should I have to go across the map to push them out?
That's the part where the killer still has agency: you don't have to.
You can go kick pallets, spam your power, earn BP, complete challenges, probably more. Nothing says that you have to go to the exit gate.
You can also choose to go to the gate and force the survivors to stop whatever they're doing and leave, is another option. And forcing them out or forcing an error is all gameplay.
A slug on the ground has no options. You can't speed up bleed out, can't escape or ignore the killer humping you on the ground, can't earn BP. Crawling at the speed of smell is not gameplay.
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Hit them out. An option not available to slugs, since it's an asymmetric game.
This is also bhvr's official stance:
@Reinami said:
I shouldn't have to sit and watch survivors teabag me.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939267#Comment_3939267
It reminds me of the discussions about the 8 gen regressions: If I kick a gen and apply eruption, and I have surge, and then I down three survivors right away, I've used up over half of the regressions!
Yeah, and the survivors are dead.
Exactly. The only way I can picture anyone hitting the regression limit "accidentally" is using surge/jolt on a two story map. And by then you've gotten 8 downs (minimum) and have likely won the match so the gens don't matter.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939153#Comment_3939153
you can, because winrate in dbd as an asym game is calculated completely different and thus killrates are the priority to look upon because they are more accurate way to determine overal average percentage of wins per side. Survivor escape rate is based on INDIVIDUAL escape/die outcome (not team where 3+ men escape counts as a win), while killer outcome is based on...how many survivors are killed.
That's exactly the numbers that are being put together though. You say 60% kill rate = 50% winrate for killers. Well, a 60% kill rate must necessarily mean a 40% winrate for survivors.
40% =/= 50%, therefor, it's clearly not balanced. Killers are winning 10 percentage points more than survivors are.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939181#Comment_3939181
Doesn't even need to be a loss, really, we've seen plenty of 'look how OP this survivor thing is' with screenshots of a 4K attached…
Doesn't even need to be a loss, really, we've seen plenty of 'look how OP this survivor thing is' with screenshots of a 4K attached
My personal favorite recently was a thread right as they giga buffed thrill there for a couple weeks. It was a video of: 4k, 5 gens remaining, and the survivors' only accomplishment was finally breaking the thrill totem.
There were people in that thread trying to claim that "since they broke the totem, survivors are clearly too powerful and need to be nerfed" and "this shows that Thrill is balanced".
As though the rest of the match was anything other than a rock solid, slam dunk, not-even-close win for the killer.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938569#Comment_3938569
There is a big difference between Survivors just being stealthy and Survivors waiting for everyone to die. Years ago I often played with a Streamer (we were both Solo, so no SWF) who was running full stealth-Builds while being very efficient at Gens. Vastly different from the people who stop doing anything and just wait for the Hatch to spawn.
That being said, stealthy playstyles are basically dead in DBD. The Developers clearly dont want stealth to be a thing anymore.
I find it ironic and a bit sad that things like base kit BT and AFC get responses like "what are killers supposed to do, they're removing every play style" when it's barely noticeable that those features exist in the long run and trivial to either power through or play around them.
Then the devs go and actually delete "stealth" from their "hide and seek" marketed game.
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@Nazzzak said:
They'll claim every survivor is bad at the game until they lose. Then suddenly every survivor is part of Seal Team 6
It's either a sweaty "4 man SWF", or equally likely "this loss just proves that the game is survivor sided and anything that provides them benefit needs to be nerfed into oblivion".
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I seem to recall that "silence" was, let me think…
Oh yeah, it was "giga busted, overpowered, nerf iron will". And, funny enough, even in it's strongest state before 6.1 it didn't even silence footsteps or breathing.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938718#Comment_3938718
A donation system would effectively remove m1 no mobility killers from the game. If survivors can force the killer to spread out hooks, then they'll be able to easily have 4 people still up by the time all gens are done. Now granted, you have some caveats to the donation system, but thays a very VERY slippery slope. Yes devs said they'll keep an eye on kill rates and adjust accordingly, but historically they are terrible at following through with this. MFT was really, really overpowering on weak m1 killers and took almost if not a full year for them to get around to actually addressing it. Them "keeping an eye" takes way too long. How long was eruption a problem? How long did it take for them to give basekit borrowed time, something you'd think would be ludicrous now for the game to have never had? They take their sweet time when there's an obvious problem.
Then this a problem with "m1" killers, and it's not exclusive to hook donation either.
Literally any time the devs even hint at tackling an issue that involves any kind of balance change that would in any way be considered a nerf or even change to killer, people immediately run to "but think of the trapper", like you did. As though a large portion of the community is playing perkless trapper against comp 4 mans constantly.
I've already said repeatedly, and I'll reiterate again here, that if they can meaningfully tackle excessive camping and tunneling in the early game, then that might need to involve buffs to killers. And those buffs can even be individual killer adjustments instead of blanket buffs across the board.
The devs have already said that if phase 2 significantly alters kill rates, they'll buff accordingly, and I consider that to be reasonable.
But they're either going to have to do something drastic, like hook donation, to have an actual impact to camping and tunneling (nearly 10 into the game at this point), or we'll end up with AFC 2.0, which will not make any impact at all to the problem of the killer doing nothing other than chasing one survivor to death and ignoring the other 3.
These strategies being meta, and having literally no diminishing return for using them early game, determines the core of the gameplay for the entire game. It needs to be fixed, and again, if we have to buff trapper to do it, then so be it.
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@XDgamer018 said:
and things like "go next epidemic" are indicators that it's too high,
i woudnt say that the go next epidemic was due to kill rates its simply due to the lack of spirit (for a lack of better words) the survivors have. Survivors wil go next against a trapper simply because they feel like it. This also inflates kill rates like crazy
in my opinion camping tunneling etc is simply a crux of the game that we have to deal with due to its asym nature.
and imo tunneling is the same as genrushing but you get punished for doing so. Since its just doing your objective wich is killing survivors (not hooking yet) but until bhvr changes the win conditions killers wil feel the need to tunnel and camp bc without it some matches are simply lost
for example i got sent to eyries second chase 3 gens alr popped if i didnt tunnel out a survivor atp and tried to get a hook trade i would have lost the game.
I've always said that petty people who go next over "don't like the killer" have always existed. People haven't become more petty.
Your "lack of spirit" is a great way of wording it, honestly. I think it's mainly because games are decided in the first, roughly 2 minutes. And if the survivor team isn't basically banging out gens immediately before the first hook (when the killer has pressure), the match can be over.
And I think that's the core problem. It may also be a problem with gens.
However, I strongly disagree that tunneling and gen rushing are the same thing. Superficially, people say that "it's just doing the objective" but that's where the similarity begins and ends.
Tunneling is a comeback mechanic for killers. It's the reason that I make certain to clarify "tunneling at 5 gens" vs "resorting to tunneling". Same thing with camping: camping first hook is ludicrous to me, but at end game that's your comeback mechanic.
All of that in the end game means you can likely get an extra kill because of it. It's also why I say that, while tunneling and camping excessively (at 5 gens) is a problem that needs to be dealt with, camping and tunneling are situational and can't simply be deleted wholesale. (Which is something that hook donation preserves and captures)
On the other hand, gen rushing is not a comeback mechanic. You have to finish gens early to even have a chance.
It's impossible, for example, to have two survivors dead and then say "well, we can resort to Gen rushing now" at the late or end game. That doesn't work or even make sense. You can do that with tunneling.
Not to mention that, as gens are completed the game gets harder for survivors. The playable area gets smaller simply from gens completing at all. The game gets easier for the killer as survivors die, and with excessive tunneling at the start of the game, the match can effectively be over with one kill if any gens remain.
Then you have that hooks are permanent, even if survivors aren't yet dead. And gens can be regressed from 99% to zero at any time. The only, only way to lock in progress on a gen is to finish it completely, where every hook is permanent, partial progress that can't be undone in any way.
So no, no matter how many times I hear people say it, tunneling and gen rushing are not equivalent.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938718#Comment_3938718
The issue with the donation system is the fact that all 4 survivors can still do stuff the reason why killers tunnel is to make it a 3v1 wich is allot more managable. since you chase 1 2 on gens or best case scenario youre chasing 1 survivor the other is on hook and the 3rd has to rescue.
If the whole team is alive thats allot less wiggle room for the killer. and on maps like azarovs resting place you simply have to camp 1 side of the map due to its terrible design
I understand that, but the devs have said that "if kill rates are impacted they will make changes to put them back".
While I personally think 60% kill rate target is entirely arbitrary, and things like "go next epidemic" are indicators that it's too high, I don't have a problem with them buffing killers to compensate.
Currently, though, they've spent 3 years constantly buffing killers, collectively and individually, to increase kill rates, and a large number of people have just used those buffs to camp and tunnel more effectively. This is the meta.
If you're going to buff killers, lets at least make sure that the resultant gameplay that comes out of all of those changes is fun and interactive (chase) and not something like the 3 gen meta (a PVE war of attrition over an hour), or staring at furniture from 11m away while everyone else watches a progress bar (camping).
ETA: And, to clarify, when I say "fun" I intend that to mean for all 5 players in the match. It seems like the only "fun" for some people is winning, but it doesn't have to be a zero sum game. You can enjoy a match while losing, and DbD used to be that way. And if survivors are intended to lose more often, which is what a 60% kill rate does, then losing the match should also be fun gameplay. Currently you can both lose and not have fun, and for some people even winning isn't fun anymore.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938687#Comment_3938687
I never really understood the mindset to just camp a hook from the get go. It has its merits in some cases, but I do generally feel it's just really...really bad for killers to do it, not because it's wrong, but it's just killers are far better off actually pressuring the map. As for survivors complaining about camping, it's a weird situation where its genuinely great for survivors if they are camping, but it feels awful for the person being camped.
I quite welcome to hear what BHVRs plans are for this. I dont really see camping as a problem since it helps survivors significantly, but I can't ignore that it's not fun for the campee.
I'm of the opinion that encouraging chases is generally a good thing, and spreading pressure is not only more effective for the killer in many situations, but it's more fun and healthier gameplay.
The most fun I had as survivor was before 6.1, not so much because of the game changes, but the mentality that "gens weren't worth kicking". Killers were hyper focused on "hunt, chase, down, hook, repeat" with as little downtime as possible. The 3 seconds to kick a gen was considered "wasted effort".
I've said since before that patch, and I'll reiterate here, that I think if they wanted to actually curb camping and tunneling they should do a hook donation system. Effectively, every survivor can choose to donate their first hook stage to a shared pool that anyone can use. And likely turn it off when gens complete.
That way, survivors can choose to be altruistic, and if the killer is choosing to camp or tunnel (basically, waiting for one survivor) it would take 6 hooks to kill someone. Waiting for that is almost certainly a lost game, and you don't have to delete camping or tunneling, you simply have to make them less efficient ways to play, and people will naturally stop doing it excessively.
What the hook donation system does do, though, is encourages chase. Chase, and specifically "getting hooks as fast as possible" becomes the focus, not "getting one person out immediately". And it gives back that pressure on the killer that "standing still is a waste of time" or "kicking gens is less valuable than chase".
This also doesn't impact late game camping or tunneling, or "resorting to". Only early game or "at 5 gens".
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@Zuiphrode said:
Why should you get a 100% safe unhook?
As the killer, you want the survivors occupied so they aren't doing gens. Because if you do nothing, or give them nothing to do, they will do gens.
Rescuing a survivor means they are not on gens, and it's an activity they are required to do.
So the real question is, why do killers feel the insatiable need to do nothing, monitoring a survivor who is already occupied in time out and physically can't do gens (the hooked survivor), instead of going to pressure someone off of a gen by chasing them?
Because the options in the table are:
- Camp the first hook. One survivor is hooked, one has to come for rescue, and the other two are left alone to do gens. Worst case, the other 3 do whatever they want while the killer observes literal furniture and all 3 are on gens.
- Leave the hook and go get into chase immediately. You still have one survivor on gens, one will come to rescue, and a third will be in chase. Leaving one person on gens. If they try to greed gens, and you get a second down quickly (micro skill), then the survivors are punished for that decision, and you have 2 hooks, 2 have to go for rescue, and no one is on gens.
Most killers who post on this forum at least, appear to choose #1 and then complain about "gen rushing", while ignoring that their macro game is non existent.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Them waiting for a hit out is the same line as slugging out survivors. Letting toxic play continue when it can be patched out easily and when they have proven they will do that for survivors would be very one sided of the DEVs. And in recent years they have show much better efforts to actually balance the game and stop toxic play. This is just the logical next step
The killer can, by basic attack (a base kit mechanic of every killer) force the behavior to stop, end the match earlier than the EGC timer, and in some cases there is a potential for the killer to force over confident survivors to make a mistake and the killer gets an additional kill.
None of that is available to a slug, and certainly not base kit.
So if you're arguing that "slugged survivors should be able to injure, and down the killer humping them, which guarantees shortening the bleed out timer significantly, and also gives a small chance to turn that situation into an escape" then they would at least be closer to "the same situation".
Personally I think that's a terrible way to go, but hey if you want identical, base kit scenarios that's a start.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
In phase 2 there will be Anti Camp adjustments. Not sure what the details are on this but I guess we will have to find out.
@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938666#Comment_3938666
Pretty much. Camping is practically best case scenario short of an afk killer for survivors. Absolutely zero gen pressure. Camping a hook isn't "bad behavior" - it's a tool killers can use, but it's very risk vs reward - doing so gives free gen progress to survivors. Normally, it's simply a bad play on the killer's part, but it does have it's place at times. Facecamping was the thing BHVR wanted to stop, and they successfully did so.
As for the upcoming anti-camping measures, I'm sure we are all quite curious what they have in mind. If they are effectively entirely removing one complete element of killer gameplay, it'll need to be made up in some other way…but perhaps not…removing camping entirely is just going to make killers stronger since "free gen progress" will become a thing of the past.
I'm just going to point out that the last time they put "anti camping" on the road map, what they gave us was the AFC mechanic.
Here's the year 8 road map they initially put out. Bottom left, "gameplay improvements: anti camping". And I don't think I have to also point out that for two years now, every thread about the mechanic they actually gave us makes absolutely certain to clarify that this mechanic "isn't anti camping, it's anti FACE camping".
I have very, very tentative hope that the phase 2 "anti camp" feature will be meaningful to deter camping. It needs to do something in some situations, at minimum, because the killer should feel some pressure to actually chase survivors early game (so, camping first hook).
And while I do generally agree that "killer doing nothing" means gens are being done for free, this community doesn't understand that in the slightest (in general). The complaints are about "gen rushing" and "gen speed" because people aren't examining their own gameplay, and just want more time to stand at the hook doing nothing.
The "strategy", for some people, is "run 4 slowdowns, wander blindly for two minutes, camp and tunnel the first person you see, and if that isn't fast enough, complain that you need more regression". Never mind the efficiency of that, or just completely ignoring 3 survivors to let them do what they want (it's gens), or that even one aura perk would cut that time down drastically. It makes the game a literal race for one kill vs 4-5 gens, who can finish first? And the only person who changes that is the killer, because survivor gameplay is responding to the killer, and standing at a hook isn't meaningfully creating gameplay.
From a gameplay perspective, the killer drives the PVP part of the game, and there's currently nothing aside from understanding the game fundamentals that pushes players to go chase instead of camping every hook, every time. And unfortunately there's nothing in the game currently that forces killers to learn that fundamental either.
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Hit them out. Killer still has agency in this scenario.
And people won't like it, but this is BHVR's official stance on this as well:
@Reinami said:
I shouldn't have to sit and watch survivors teabag me.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938232#Comment_3938232
Not if there was no indication that the killer DCed. Why is it a problem if survivors face a bot? is there something more about the human interaction?
Well,
A) it's a pvp game. So playing against a team that is entirely bots is not DbD. I've said since they announced bots that the game should just end of the other team is all bots. I don't remember if this has been fixed yet, but I consider it a gigantic oversight of the bot system.
B) killer bots don't exist. They would have to code the bot independently for each killer. This isn't like survivor ai, which is independent of new releases, and the bot doesn't care which skin it has. The tutorial trapper is the only thing in the game like this, and it's not ai, it's hard coded to teach a new player the game with a very specific outline of what it should do.
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@brewingtea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938151#Comment_3938151
If it were up to me, I'd let the killer abandon whenever they want, regardless of how many gens are done or hooks they've gotten. You can't ruin the match for your teammates, so you do you. Why make someone stay in a match they're not enjoying?
Because the killer leaving is ruining the match for everyone.
Survivors reacting to the killer's gameplay is the game.
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I think the other reason is the new afk system. If Victor is chasing you, then the only thing preventing the system from giving you AFK progress is chase: you can't do gens for 15 seconds, or heal someone with the killer actively behind you.
Otherwise, there's an edge abuse case where the killer can force a survivor to be considered "AFK" just by chasing them with Victor long enough, and that isn't the intention behind the AFK system. Clearly, that is "participating in the match".
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From a thematic standpoint, after the doctor sacrifices a survivor on hook, survivors with any madness level will still hear the dead survivor crying when near the hook they died on.
I always wanted something like that for other killers. Just a bit of flavor that doesn't impact balance in any way.
Like, for nemesis, I used to think that instead of the survivor going into the sky to the entity, the survivor's body stays on the hook and grasps at nearby players as a harmless zombie. Although that isn't as feasible now that hooks respawn, and would count as "impacting balance" at this point. Would still be neat though.
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@TheSingleQuentinMain said:
To be frank, people have found bugs over the years like the Autohaven map openings, that allow players to "escape the map" without hacks. These are normally patched out within a couple of weeks, but I've found a couple of them over the years, especially with Nurse. If they just added some code saying, "If player outside of bounds = treat them as a hacker," that means a lot of weird bugs we've seen would punish people who aren't hacking.
Not to mention that killer hackers tend to teleport to survivors, instadown, then teleport to a hook. So it really wouldn't be impossible for a hacker to teleport or otherwise move a "regular player" out of bounds, specifically to force this kind of system to ban people who have done nothing wrong.
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Of all the issues with maps, tiles, and loops, this isn't solving anything.
I don't even think there should be a perk to physically rebuild pallets. Maybe, a new item type that was extremely limited, like one pallet maximum, but even then I don't think this has a place in the game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936582#Comment_3936582
Honestly, I'm willing to bet they just figured they don't need to anymore.
It's not like Deja Vu is causing problems right now. It's a good perk, don't get me wrong, knowing where the 3-gen is at all times is a damn good effect, but it's not the reason gens are flying in anyone's matches.
In addition, I feel like a lot of people forget another very key piece of context, which is that while it was buffed to help against 3-gens… it wasn't actually any good at breaking them if the killer was actually trying to hold them. It ended up being a nice-but-not-overbearing buff to an underrated perk for regular gameplay and not very useful for its supposed purpose, lol.
Not to mention that the extra 1% they added to deja Vu is literally less than a second difference off of the entire gen's progress from 0-100%. (About 0.808 seconds out of 90 base, incredible value...)
For comparison, the call of brine buff amounts to about 8.5 seconds extra removed for the duration. So, despite cob being "weak" and "not worth running", the deja Vu bonus is literally about 10% as impactful as that.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936340#Comment_3936340
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BOR3AE611TDB/image.png
The third point seems to answer that.
@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3936340#Comment_3936340
This actually is included in the changes, though.
When you gain all 3 crows, you lose colision with all players. This makes it so the killer can't bodyblock forever.
Oh good, I missed that in the notes. Thanks!
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It seems a bit odd to me that they finally updated this system, but didn't take some of the more common sense issues into account.
It makes sense, for example, that interacting with the killer's power should at least count as "playing the game" to progress toward removing crows. Things like pig hats, Onryo tapes, or even flame turrets that take more than a couple seconds to interact with/use shouldn't also be forcing survivors to announce their location as well.
On the other hand, they completely whiffed when it comes to the killer being afk apparently. Body blocking in a corner will still force the survivor to get crows and they physically can't do anything about it. They should, at minimum, remove collision when you get a certain number of crows so you can at least phase through a body block to get out. (You can still get hit, just pass through someone - this already exists for falling onto another character)
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Killers are a joke in modern DBD - yes. Heck, Hens and Co. just released a video that literally makes it impossible for an m1 killer to ever reach you - can literally outrun the killer by haste stacking XD
So we're back to "haste stacking is bad" again? That was fast.
I seem to recall the devs specifically stating they were targeting haste stacking and killers had a meltdown and demanded they not go through with that. (Which the devs did backtrack and pull the plug on that change.)
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Absolutely, 100%.
People seem to misunderstand that this is a zoning tool, and it's not supposed to guarantee a broken pallet.
One of the other things I usually point out about this perk is that the notification is not just consistent with basically every other player debuff in the game, but since it applies "any time a survivor is injured by any means" it can easily lead to unintuitive scenarios (that look to the player as either a bug or hacks).
If a survivor steps in a trap across the map, then a survivor who isn't even in chase (but in the terror radius) will break a fast vaulted pallet with this perk. Just as one example.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935426#Comment_3935426
not a single "anti-some-survivor-playerstyle-we-dont-like" things.
What?
You got hook respawns. You got medkit nerfs. You got map offering changes. Talking about genrush, you got a free bonus ten seconds per gen, and now survivors will spawn clumped to make them take longer to split.
Killers don't get any perks the way survivors do because killers get it all rolled into basekit.
Anti gen tap: one mechanic single handedly eliminated the practice entirely. You physically can't stop a gen from regressing during chase because it's impossible with that one change.
Free lightborn on locker grab, effectively killed double locker saves (and good riddance).
Anti hiding is also included in this phase, part of that being the crows rework. This is directly and exactly "a play style killers don't like".
Distortion also was changed for this exact purpose. You could even argue with the way wake up was nerfed, it was to reduce selfish "hide for hatch/door solo" play style.
Adrenaline was nerfed because having a perk that did nothing until end game was too much. Now the perk can actually do nothing all game if the killer checks notes oh yeah, does nothing differently to hard counter it.
Compared with:
AFC is a casual recommendation to, please, eventually move slightly farther from the hook. Oh you can still hit the survivor on hook, there's no penalty for that, you just need to take a step back at some point. Take your time, wouldn't want to inconvenience you.
Base kit BT was much needed, but also came with the "compensation" of gutting DS and making all other anti tunnel protection endurance based. Oh, and endurance doesn't stack either, so now there's a base kit way for killers to disable your tunneling perks. Have fun!
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933102#Comment_3933102
these stats are literally useless and serve no purpose for balance talks
Translation: The data doesn't fit the narrative you want, so you'll dismiss it wholesale, and not even consider things like context or having a discussion about it.
I never said anything about balance, just that the data directly contradicts your exact statement.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932953#Comment_3932953
Especially the struggle stage change. Leaving to give the last survivor a shot at hatch in a lost game is pretty common and benefits everyone - the game doesn't drag unnecessarily for the killer, the hooked survivor moves on, and the last survivor has a shot at some extra bp. I suppose you can skip one skill check, hit the next, then miss the next, to bypass it but it's such a tone deaf change imo.
I'm actually pretty sad about this one.
This is one of the few areas of the game where, even in solo q, the best choice for the survivor on hook is to let go and give the last person the chance at hatch.
It's also one of the most sportsmanlike plays you can make, to gracefully lose while being a team player. The fact that they didn't account for this in the "go next prevention" is a gigantic miss.
In fact, shame on BHVR for taking the option to be a team player away in this situation. You can definitely code around this one scenario while still targeting "giving up early".
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
only the case if you are brand new to killer
otherwise you should and often need to tunnel as the 4v1 is impossible even for nurse and blight
the 4v1 is impossible even for nurse and blight
I'm just gonna leave this here. Most recent official stats, 69% kill rate at the top end.
Yeah, really struggling. They're merely defeating their opponents more than twice as often as the survivors are escaping.
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Gens are effectively a timer on the trial. The longer the match goes, the better it is for the killer.
Survivor resources are limited and consumable, so the longer the match is, the more pallets are consumed, items deplete, hook stages and bleed out are permanently consumed resources. Even gens themselves create smaller playable areas as they are completed. All of those core game mechanics favor the killer the longer the match is.
People complain about gen rushing because they want to win more, that's all. Even when killers had nearly complete control of the game during the 3 gen and gen kick metas, people still camped and tunneled more because they want to win.
All of those core game factors I mentioned are various, base kit comeback mechanics for the killer. Comeback mechanics like those do not exist for survivors. If one survivor dies before about 3 or 4 gens are done, the game is over. So, a hard tunneling killer turns the match into a race to finish gens before one person is eliminated. If you didn't complete gens early, when survivors are strongest, it's just gg.
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Anti gen rush has been a core mechanic of the game since before I started playing. There's a base kit, stacking penalty for survivors to group up on a gen.
Not to mention the new "survivors always start grouped together" feature, which makes it basically impossible for 4 survivors to start working on separate gens immediately.
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3932199#Comment_3932199
I’m just calling out people that are 100% against those tactics.
I feel like this is a charicature of a position. Not that no one holds this view, per se, but I don't see that in this conversation.
Personally, I think that killers have a variety of tools available to them. Things like camping, tunneling, slugging are some that get focus, but there's also chase, objective slowdown, spreading pressure, switching targets (and knowing when to), or even things like totem defense, depending on your build.
Those are all base kit options for the killer, and knowing how to apply those tools, and when, is, imo, a measure of skill.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging, though tend to be used as "the only way" some people know how to play. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And because these strategies are fairly simple to execute and hard to counter, it also makes them effective as the only tool people use for quite a while (or for some people, all they ever use). And, when those players have stomped teams at their skill level using only these strategies, they don't learn to use anything else, let alone learning when to change up to another tactic.
The discussion started by focusing on "people who always tunnel", and you're implying that "people should never tunnel" is the implication, but those aren't the only options on the table.
All of those things I listed, including camping, tunneling, and slugging, should be situationally used. And it's a measure of player skill, game sense, and game knowledge to understand when those situations arise.
And once people do learn to use more of the tools available to them, they naturally become better players. Which I believe was mainly the point OP is making here regarding "fundamentals".
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931690#Comment_3931690
To a certain extinct, sure. Keep in mind the game is designed around the survivors. If survivors make mistakes, killers need to capitalize on those mistakes. Survivors have a lot of power and tools available to them, so it's all about making effective use of that power and those tools. Survivors who would theoretically play to perfection would be unstoppable. Killers who would theoretically play to perfection could still lose. In the end, it comes down to how many mistakes the survivors make. Thats why lower mmr, killers reign supreme - survivors don't have enough experience to know how to effectively play. At high mmr, those survivors make far less mistakes. In the end, it comes down to survivors and their mistakes or lack of mistakes that dictate the match. If they srent making mistakes, then the killer is effectively at their mercy - especially weak killers. Granted nurse and blight exist - and they are way overtuned.
Remember, according to BHVRs official stats, experienced 4 man swfs have each of their survivors having an average of a 48% escape rate. That's each survivor. If it was 1 on 1, we would want both sides to have a 50% chance to win. However, this is FOUR opponents the killer has to face, and each of those opponents only have one opponent. Mathmatically, each survivor would need a 38.5% escape rate to make it fair for the player who has multiple opponents to deal with. 48% is so close to 50, you can do a simple experiment. Flip a coin 4 times. How often do you get tails 3 (kills) out of the 4 flips after 100 flips? Not very often.
Innately, survivors hold the advantage. It just usually comes down to their ability to avoid mistakes than it is the killer avoiding mistakes. The game is designed around those survivor mistakes and taking advantage of them. If they don't make mistakes, even perfectly playing can result in a loss.
That's not how any of this works.
A 60% kill rate means that, on average 60% of survivors are being killed in matches. Your coin analogy is entirely wrong in this context.
That number doesn't have anything to do with a 1v1 scenario, since matches aren't a 1v1.
But the biggest problem is that it's not "a coin flip", no matter what percentage you decide to cherry pick. Coins are independent outcomes, so every time you flip one has the same chance, regardless of what happened in the last flip.
Kills, though, absolutely depend on previous outcomes. If you kill one survivor early, and at least a couple of gens remain, then you're pretty much guaranteed to kill at least 2 other survivors. That steamroll effect is called being dependent outcomes, and it's really the entire reason people tunnel in the first place: if you kill one fast, you win the match (and in this conversation that boils down to killing one early basically guarantees killing two more).
You can see this really plainly in any detailed data as well: even if it's incomplete, data on nightlight shows that the "4k" match outcome is the most common (about 30% of all matches), followed by 0k at about 20%. A coin flip, is exactly the opposite distribution, with the "4 heads" and "4 tails" outcomes being the least likely outcomes.
Not to mention other factors like players actively working to force one outcome or the other, vs what we presume to be a fair coin flipped randomly (rather than, say, dropped gently to force one outcome).
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931283#Comment_3931283
I've had survivors hide for over 10 minutes before, as i had the 10 minute abandon feature pop up as an option. They refused to do gens and just literally hid in random lockers.
That's literally what the abandon feature is for.
And there a massive, cavernous difference between 10 minutes and 4 minutes. Especially since the 4 minutes of slugging for the 4k is completely within the killers control at that point.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931586#Comment_3931586
You say this, but even watching what BHVR considers professional dbd players, they'll also question how many hooks particular survivors have. With so much going on, not to mention people having the same skins equipped, keeping track of hook counts isn't something that'll just happen naturally. Even the best dbd players have to jot notes down to keep track of it all. People who tunnel intentionally need only keep track of one survivor only. Normal gameplay killers have to keep track of 12 hook states at any given time. That's easier said than done. Hiding the hook states only negatively affects killers who aren't going out of their way to tunnel.
Normal gameplay killers have to keep track of 12 hook states at any given time
Yes, this is generally how I play as well. I genuinely don't find this to be that difficult.
I'm also trying to keep track of where I've seen survivors, which gens they're working on (and likely where they can be expected to go back to), and usually which perks I've seen. I can usually extrapolate who is going for rescue,
I still don't think that this is an unreasonable amount of information to handle, even admitting that I do make mistakes and have gotten it wrong. If I'm playing for hooks, then I'm already focusing on having a fun match (for everyone) and ideally the game should still be fun even if survivors aren't escaping.
This game has some of the most easily tracked and telegraphed information of most of the PVP games I've played.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931550#Comment_3931550
Tunnelers keep track of hook counts anyway. That wouldn't change anything. Tru, for example, tends to tunnel on a regular basis. You'll notice he always stops to jot down a kill on his desk after every hook.
Tracked hook states wouldn't increase tunneling, as tunnelers already tunnel and already keep track anyway. It would, however, help killers who play "nice" to avoid unintentionally eliminating players which would reduce tunneling.
I personally keep track to avoid accidentally eliminating someone too early in the match. Im not out for anyone to have a miserable experience. I may be "the bad guy", but I'm not a bad guy. Here's what I designed for my tracker on my tablet.
Personally I don't find this to be a terribly difficult thing to keep track of, and I feel that it goes beyond being a simple "quality of life" change.
Asymmetric information is a core part of PVP games, even in symmetric games like overwatch, Apex, etc. There is always information about your cooldowns, ultimates, and even team resources that is shown to you and specifically hidden from the opponent.
In every game I've ever played, it's a measure of game sense for you to mentally keep track of those things in the middle of the game.
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I'm generally opposed to showing this to the killer, since it would largely be used to just tunnel one person out.
However, if they actually implement meaningful anti tunneling in phase 2 this year, then I might actually change my mind on this one.
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So, briefly..
Reasons why tunneling happen varies widely, especially depending on a few factors. Most people, when they talk about tunneling aren't referring to end game, or "resorting to tunneling" gameplay, for example.
Most mechanics and perks disable in the end game, and most of the time were discussing tunneling "at 5 gens" or "at the start of the game", which is going into a match with the intent of chasing the first person you find to death hook as fast as possible.
The biggest reason people tunnel at 5 gens though is that it's easy to execute and difficult for survivors to counter. There is nothing stopping killers from doing this right away, every match. (Although, the one thing that does punish this is MMR, which is also largely complained about)
I don't believe for a second that directly buffing killers will do anything to solve this issue. The gen kick and 3 gen meta were arguably some of the strongest killer metas, and slowest gens this game has ever seen, and killers simply used those buffs to camp and tunnel more simply for easier wins.
That said, I don't think there's nothing that can be done here. I think intangibility on unhook is generally healthier than endurance, assuming it still has the same conspicuous actions restriction (and probably item restriction also).
I've also said since it was removed that the old BP bonus for things like BBQ, wglf, and prove should be base kit. Add an indicator on the UI to help track the "BBQ" spread hooks bonus and at least some people will pursue it. I also think that BP incentives like this are a simple, non-balance related incentive to healthy gameplay that shouldn't be controversial. It's not a final solution, but it is a good step in the right direction that doesn't involve nerfing (or buffing) anything.