AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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Hopefully they use the kill switch this time. This is similar to the soft lock a few years ago with the twins that they didn't kill switch then either and it took 3 months for them to fix.
They really shouldn't leave stuff like this without addressing in some form. Fix quickly or kill switch are basically the only two acceptable options imo.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920424#Comment_3920424
sorry but your comment as a whole is completely wrong understanding of macro and micro managing of mentioned perks.
Doesn't do this at all, even if the killer doesn't understand the first thing about this perk (like you don't). StB telegraphs that is in play and can only be used once per survivor. If perfectly executed, and every survivor brings this perk, you get a free exposed down (half a chase) on everyone but the first, and it can only be used 4 times total. And the survivor using it screams at you that they have it.
it literally does force 12-hooking because it makes early tunneling (also the only viable way of tunneling and ONLY IF there is a chain of mistakes made by survivors) completely useless. You don't need every survivor to bring the perk to get a massive value out of it, but i guess average player doesn't unserstand how to use selfless perks.
I won't deny that deliverance could be good if RNG is working in your favor. But if even one teammate doesn't know you have it (which isn't base kit) or you get hooked first, it's a dead perk slot. Survivors do not choose who is chased or hooked.
on actual high level of gameplay, if you make a mistake of being the first one chased, your teammate will take the chase in order to make you not waste Deli slot. And survivors can definitely choose who will be chased and hooked lol.
Both of these are hard countered by hitting the survivor off hook. Dead hard is two uses per game, ever.
bro OTR endurance is lost by hitting a survivor right off the hook ONLY IF survivor is unhooked in killer's face, which is absolutely the worst move you can make unless you were already greeding the hook against camping killer.
DH is two uses per game (and more with StB) and even with two uses it's very powerful lol.
DS is one of the most easily telegraphed perks in the game. If you're picking up a survivor who isn't on gens and running at your face, that is entirely you not reading the situation. Even lockers, you can walk away and let them reconsider their life choices. DS only works for 60 seconds, and it's entirely avoidable by the killer. The only time this should ever trigger is if you're actually tunneling (which is exactly what it's for), or if you walk into it face first because you have the game sense of a fence post.
"even lockers, you can walk away"...dude that is the point, you get indirect value off DS by making killer leave you, you literally forced them into a lose-lose situation by making them have to either leave you or take the stun.
DS literally works very well even at high skill levels because even if you down a DS carrier bodyblocking for their teammate, they will usually have UB or another perk to pick themselves up (or teammate can do it) which means you literally got value out of it.
Can we stop acting like only value of DS is when you actually stun the killer picks you up? Because that's a pure proof of bad understanding of the perk.
It could be good if it actually deterred camping, but since this perk is nearly 2 years old now and was gutted from ptb before it even hit live, this perk is so rarely useful is hilarious. They've had to add anti hook grab, AFC, and even have planned an upcoming "anti camp feature" because nothing they've done (including reassurance) is meaningful against camping.
lol? They added hook grabs removal for other reasons, anti-facecamp meter for...facecamping and they planned another anticamp feature because they care more about further buffing surv role and giving more power to it overall by making skill of average player just deteriorate even further.
And saying Reassurance is overall bad? One thing, first of all +10s to hook timer is one of the great ways you could see how it is powerful, not only against campers, but in many other scenarios too, because hook greeding is not only powerful in case of camping killers. It just takes a bit of deeper intensity of game knowledge to understand the massive power this perk holds lol.
So I'm going to respond, but every time I talk to you you get insanely condescending when I point out, demonstrably, that you don't understand how something works. The lack of self reflection is astounding, and this is now for other people, since I don't expect you to learn anything at this point:
it literally does force 12-hooking because it makes early tunneling (also the only viable way of tunneling and ONLY IF there is a chain of mistakes made by survivors) completely useless. You don't need every survivor to bring the perk to get a massive value out of it, but i guess average player doesn't unserstand how to use selfless perks.
No. Nothing "forces you to 12 hook". If it even came close to that, it would be like old BT, and be required to bring in every build.
It moves one hook, and works once. So even if everyone brings it, and plays it perfectly you can kill someone, at the absolute latest, on hook 6. If you understand how the perk works, you can chase the person screaming at you, who now has a hook state. I personally don't think that keeping track of hook states is that hard, barring extreme circumstances, and StB is not extreme (even if people fail to understand how it works).
on actual high level of gameplay, if you make a mistake of being the first one chased, your teammate will take the chase in order to make you not waste Deli slot. And survivors can definitely choose who will be chased and hooked lol.
Survivors do not choose who is chased. If the survivors are convincing the killer to change targets, that killer is absolutely not "high level". In any scenario, including real life, if you're doing what your opponent wants you to do, you should switch to doing just about anything else. That is tactics 101.
bro OTR endurance is lost by hitting a survivor right off the hook ONLY IF survivor is unhooked in killer's face, which is absolutely the worst move you can make unless you were already greeding the hook against camping killer.
Deep wounds shuts off all endurance. Interestingly, you claim earlier that tunneling is the only way to win (in different words) and yet here you seem to imply that you never tunnel. Which is it?
And, in actual high level play, there's something called "hook bombing" where you unhook immediately to reduce killer pressure to have no one on hook.
Both OTR and DH are hard countered by tunneling and shut off by hitting off hook. If you aren't tunneling, and have someone chasing you for a protection hit, I consider that to be a much better use of time for the killer than having someone doing gens. Doing nothing is kinda what I want them to do.
you get indirect value off DS by making killer leave you, you literally forced them into a lose-lose situation by making them have to either leave you or take the stun.
At this point I don't think you understand pressure. You realize that leaving them slugged to reconsider their life choices means they're not on gens, right?
That's pressure. And if you have a decent mental clock, you can go back and hook them once the 60 seconds is up.
You seem to be complaining that survivors are doing anything at all that interacts with the killer, and I assume you have a problem with gens, which boils down to "outrage that survivors are doing anything".
They added hook grabs removal for other reasons, anti-facecamp meter for...facecamping and they planned another anticamp feature because they care more about further buffing surv role and giving more power to it overall by making skill of average player just deteriorate even further.
We both agree that these are anti camping measures, and somehow camping is still a meta strategy. So those features, while impacting some aspects of it, are there to deter camping. It might be very specific (like AFC) or reducing the reward for camping (hook grabs), but camping is alive and well. There are currently no mechanics that make camping impossible. Unlike, say, gen tapping, which doesn't exist anymore.
And saying Reassurance is overall bad?
That's not what I said, I said it's perfectly fine if the killer is camping. You seem to be under the impression that this perk existing somehow kills camping, and it doesn't.
There's no reason to talk about "greeding" in this situation. Greeding means you're not near the hook and can't use the perk, and if the killer isn't camping, you can greed without the perk at all. Greeding is completely separate from reassurance. Although most players will only be able to greed if the killer is wasting their time at a hook and not pressuring people off of gens.
It's always in the best interest of the survivors to get people off hook as soon as possible to reduce killer pressure.
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@XDgamer018 said:
this is talking into the future im talking about now. and knowing bhvr they might screw that up aswel…
Since I think this is directed at my response to you:
All of that is available right now except one item in the road map.
The only people struggling with finding survivors are likely running 4 slowdowns, not leaving their 3 gen, and then throwing up their hands and posting on the forums about how unfair it is that survivors aren't standing in the open waving a neon flag.
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@A_T_E said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920440#Comment_3920440
Killers leaving due to no gens being completed in 10 mins, equals a loss to the Killer.
And there are people who don't care what the match outcome is.
The end game screen is bugged to show 4 deaths, the entity eats the survivors, and the game ends.
Some people only care that "you didn't get to do your objective, so I win". And I personally don't think that we should be feeding the mentality that complete objective denial is a good thing. And, for the record, that goes both ways.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916071#Comment_3916071
Same goes for BBQ tbh. Getting rid of BP incentives that promoted fair play was extremely backwards.
I've said the same thing for years whenever this comes up:
If the devs don't want BP incentives tied to perks (presumably limiting perk choices) then remove them from the perks. The BP incentives that used to apply BBQ and Prove should be made base kit.
I don't see how this is in any way controversial. Particularly since both of these examples only promote play styles people want to see in the game already (killers want inefficient gens, and survivors want spread hooks).
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920423#Comment_3920423
i mean the killer is forced a loss if the survivors refuse to do their objective… so safe to say bhvr doesnt give a rats ass abt the killer experience…
@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920338#Comment_3920338
just hide for 10 minutes and it counts as a loss for killer
all scenarios where the abandon mechanic comes into play is a draw at best and a killer loss at worst
it's a lose lose scenario for killer
I mean, the killer isn't forced to use this feature.
And finding survivors is a fundamental part of playing killer. Clearly BHVR agrees with that part. They've also added a metric ton of information perks over the years, and deleted distortion exactly for this scenario.
Shoot, they still have anti hiding on the road map... For their "deadly hide and seek" game.
So if the killer isn't able to find survivors at this point, there's absolutely more they can be doing.
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Some killers are abusing the "abandon" feature to 3 gen again. So holding a 3 gen for only 10 minutes without a gen completing means they can press one button and the game makes it look like the survivors all die.
It doesn't matter if the devs call this "draw" or "loss", these are people who only care about being the pOwEr RoLe.
The only way to even try to avoid someone doing this from the start of the game is to break the 3 gen immediately. And Deja Vu shows you where it is first thing.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
Shoulder the Burden - forces 12-hooking
Deliverance - easily denying hook pressure for killer
Dead Hard - a goated perk even against S-tiers
OTR - tank hits for your teammates to correct their pathing
DS - severely underrated perk which easily forces lose-lose situations + easily forced by jumping into a locker
honorable mention:
Reassurance - one of the best perks in the entire game that is not only anticamp, but also has more absolutely good uses people are not aware abou
Shoulder the Burden - forces 12-hooking
Doesn't do this at all, even if the killer doesn't understand the first thing about this perk (like you don't). StB telegraphs that is in play and can only be used once per survivor. If perfectly executed, and every survivor brings this perk, you get a free exposed down (half a chase) on everyone but the first, and it can only be used 4 times total. And the survivor using it screams at you that they have it.
Deliverance - easily denying hook pressure for killer
I won't deny that deliverance could be good if RNG is working in your favor. But if even one teammate doesn't know you have it (which isn't base kit) or you get hooked first, it's a dead perk slot. Survivors do not choose who is chased or hooked.
Dead Hard - a goated perk even against S-tiers
OTR - tank hits for your teammates to correct their pathing
Both of these are hard countered by hitting the survivor off hook. Dead hard is two uses per game, ever.
DS - severely underrated perk which easily forces lose-lose situations + easily forced by jumping into a locker
DS is one of the most easily telegraphed perks in the game. If you're picking up a survivor who isn't on gens and running at your face, that is entirely you not reading the situation. Even lockers, you can walk away and let them reconsider their life choices. DS only works for 60 seconds, and it's entirely avoidable by the killer. The only time this should ever trigger is if you're actually tunneling (which is exactly what it's for), or if you walk into it face first because you have the game sense of a fence post.
Reassurance - one of the best perks in the entire game that is not only anticamp, but also has more absolutely good uses people are not aware abou
It could be good if it actually deterred camping, but since this perk is nearly 2 years old now and was gutted from ptb before it even hit live, this perk is so rarely useful is hilarious. They've had to add anti hook grab, AFC, and even have planned an upcoming "anti camp feature" because nothing they've done (including reassurance) is meaningful against camping.
I'll also add, that "has absolutely more good uses" is purely wrong. It's only ever good if the killer is actually camping. If you're using reassurance to run up and leave someone on hook and the killer isn't nearby, you're playing it wrong. Unhooking is always the right play there, and it's why good teams will "hook bomb" to unhook as fast as possible, and keep like pressure to a minimum.
Giving the killer more pressure for free, especially when you have to be within 6m to even activate the perk is just simply a bad play.
FYFY. And if this is your take on survivor perks, I really want to see video of your solo q gameplay.
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I'll be honest, this feels really counter to almost every discussion from the devs about the game.
I may have missed it elsewhere but the only time I've ever seen talk of a "draw" is for MMR purposes (hatch is an MMR draw). And the devs always, always stick to talking about either kills or escapes.
So now framing the surrender feature as win/loss/draw feels counter to every other balance discussion we've ever had. The community generally talks about winning/losing, but the devs avoid taking about win conditions.
So is that changing? Is there an official "win" now? Or is this just in terms of MMR, in which case why tell us at all? The whole point of this system being invisible is partially to prevent people from manipulating it for easier games, so even saying "if you surrender in these circumstances, you can turn a match into a draw or loss, even if you hard won the game.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
With no killers you have no game.
Yeah, we know.
Someone makes sure to remind us of exactly this about once a week.
Because for some reason, killers in particular feel the need to remind the devs on a regular basis that "it's a nice game you have there, be a shame if something happened to it".
Which I don't see survivors saying, at least not nearly as frequently. Survivors seem to just give up the game and walk away quietly to find something more fun to do with their time.
I think it's a pretty big indicator from BHVR that they're asking questions the way they are right now. They just posted new stats showing that "hey, kill rates are exactly where we want them", "we've balanced out the SWF problem overall", and "killers in all brackets are eating well", and then putting it a survey asking for feedback for how it feels to lose constantly on the other side of the coin.
Because as much as people say things like you did, where "tHe GaMe CaN't FuNcTiOn WiThOuT kIlLeRs", the devs seem both aware and worried that they might be on track to "death gardening" their game.
And, frankly, so am I.
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I personally don't think there's anything wrong with lightborn. It's a decent option for killers, and isn't too powerful despite being one of the very few "hard counters" that exists in the game.
That said, distortion was nerfed at least in part because "having one perk that denies an entire class of perks" and "it promoted unhealthy gameplay", which makes lightborn seem like a special case.
Maybe it would be more consistent for the devs to rework it to be something like "gain a token for each unique survivor hooked, each token adds a stacking 25% blindness reduction, up to 100% maximum at 4 tokens", to discourage tunneling. And consider changing "hooked" to either "hit" or "chased".
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916058#Comment_3916058
technically I think we have 3 off the top of my head:
Friendly competition
Prove thyself
And potential energy(which isn’t technically a group up, but feels like one depending on how it’s used)
I think most prefer resi though, because gen splitting is still better for reasons. I don’t see those worms going back in that can.
I'm mostly being insanely sarcastic tbh.
I said that people splitting up on gens was worse for the killer before the prove nerf, and nerfing that perk would just make gen rushing worse. At that time I was told I was an idiot, and it was 100% PT (and BNP) causing the problem.
Fast forward to today, and shocked Pikachu it looks like people are splitting up on gens more. Who could've seen this coming?
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915641#Comment_3915641
Splitting gens is kinda forced due to gen regression perks, and even then only really effective against low mobility killers. But granted, somewhat of an issue(altho there are basekit counters to it, otherwise low mobility killers wouldnt have killrates above 2.5 on average).
Splitting gens is not forced because of gen slowdowns, gen slowdowns are forced because of gen splitting. Basically the whole purpose of the most important perk to use as killer, Corrupt Intervention, is to make gen splitting more difficult.
Saboing is not something you can rely on much and requires quite a few perks and specific addons to happen more than once a game succesfully. Slugging and tunnelling does not require any of that.
This is now comparing apples and oranges in terms of resources for using a strategy. If we are going by this logic, gen splitting doesn''t require you to use any perks/addons/resources as survivor and is the most powerful survivor strategy and got even more powerful with further nerfs to gen slowdowns. If you are going to give sabo as comparison, then give it with a killer strategy that actually requires perks or addons to be executed.
I would be 10000x more okay with tunnelling and slugging if it actively relied on perks to be consistently viable, but its not. It's basekit.
as i already said, splitting gens is also basekit, but compared to tunneling, it's absolutely necessary to bring Corrupt Intervention as 99% of killers to stand a chance against competent team.
Tunneling is already 50/50 hit or miss when playing significant portion of killers when survivor has no anti-tunneling perks at all. Tunneling requires survivors to make big mistakes to be executed successfully, splitting gens doesn't require killer to make just one small mistake in first chase.
Anti-camp isnt strong, anti-tunnelling isnt strong, anti-slugging isnt strong, otherwise camping, tunnelling and slugging wouldnt be an issue, now would it?
Anti-camp is overwhelmingly strong, anti-tunneling is overwhelmingly strong, anti-slugging is very strong in competent teams.
Now, if you want to talk about how "problematic camping, tunneling and slugging is", why don't you take a deeper look at it. Primary counter to tunneling is being good in chases. With the average chase time of 60s per WHOLE MATCH, not per single chase, how would you even expect people to counter tunneling.
It's the prime example of how average survivor player doesn't want to learn how to counter killer strategies at all, they just want further anti anti anti mechanics and basekit perks to be slapped until they wouldn't need to give any skill input towards the game.
And hooking is more viable than ever in DBD history, wdym? The issue is that people like you just hook willy-nilly on the closest hook whenever you hook. Go take strategic hooks, go that extra 5 second time investment so survivors are forced to hooktrade or end up multiple people injured.
First of all, survivor is the one controlling the direction of the chase in most cases (unless we are talking about Brutal zoning Blight, Kaneki or edge map chases, but those are 50/50s in terms of chance of killer to redirect the chase). If survivor is aware they are about to go down, they will intentionally force you to down them at a spot where you CAN'T get a beneficial/strategical hook. You are talking as if strategic hooking is so simple and easy when it's the thing that is simply induced by survivor mistakes.
Also, take a look at how many meta survivor perks have hooks as condition to be activated and then think a bit more about it.
"all of these strats are meta cus average player doesnt learn counterplay"
Except the same can be true of anti-camp(which only works if you camp), anti-tunnel(which only works if you tunnel) and anti-slug(which only works if you slug). Not even talking about how if tunnelling is not viable unless as a last resort, anti-tunnel perks will also be basically non-existant in use. Right now they are top 10 because of how viable tunnelling is as a normal strat
anti-facecamp is only meant to prevent toxic usage of camping, not camping as a strategy. Anti-camp perks literally work both if you camp or you don't camp (they also work as an anti-tunnel because hooked survivor is "frozen" and killer can't attempt to tunnel them unless they are unhooked, meaning greeding survivor on hook can often give you big advantage even when killer isn't camping.
Anti-tunneling works only if you tunnel? Really? After so many years of discussions being held about aggressive usage of anti-tunneling perks, we are still using the good ol' "just don't tunnel" as a defense for how strong anti-tunneling perks outside of actual tunneling are?
Anti-slug also works in order to force lose-lose situations when in combo with some perks + with some combos you can literally pick up a survivor killer has basically just downed.
I actually truly recommend you to watch some actual high skill level matches, scrims with no limitations or whatever you want just to be aware o how stuff you are trying to present as mid is actually strong and how this game is much more deeper in terms of decision-making, balance problems and various other stuff than you think :)
@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915721#Comment_3915721
What was implied with gen-splitting, is that it is by far the most effective way to gen-rush, since you split the progress to three simultaneous gens, while one survivor runs the killer around.
If done correctly, you could end up with a match that takes less than 3 minutes.
Hens and some other strong survivor players (I believe it was a part of Team Eternal) tried this as a speedrun tactic, in which they managed to get one survivor out in less than 2 minutes and 35 seconds.
In the video, watch from 22:37 to see the tactic on full display.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtnZqgSJeiw
Bear in mind that this is not common at all, but still, some people on the forums has been complaining a lot about splitting gens is in fact becoming more common as a strategy used by survivors nowadays.
You know, they should really give survivors a perk that encourages them to group up and work on gens together. Maybe even add a blood point bonus for team generator work to sweeten the pot.
Sounds like survivors would like it, and killers would benefit from people grouping up together. Big win all around.
I bet it would be meta.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915663#Comment_3915663
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915739#Comment_3915739
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915735#Comment_3915735
Its always a bad practice so look at things were BHVR might not have reacted in the right way and bring this forth as a sort of argument why we shouldn't kill switch another thing.
Bugs in the game shouldn't be handled on a quit pro quo basis, any bug should go and not be threated like "but you guys got this and that for a month" or to foster any more "us vs them".
To be fair, the auto gen completion and the bug were you could clip into lockers with a flashlight without actually entering them were so gamebraking that it wasn't possible to play a normal game. Infinite Balance Landing brought infinites back, but if you ignored the places were this was possible, you could still outplay this players normally. I don't know about the zombie bug, but it sounds like they just move at high speed for the rest of the game? That should go, too, but the game can still be played in some normal capacity and you can always blind or kill zombies - I am not defending this, but there are layers to how severe a bug is and how important it is to see it gone asap, but we really should detach bugs and bugfixes from the "us vs them" mentality, as this has really no place here.
For the record, nowhere do I say things shouldn't be kill switched.
They absolutely should use the kill switch and fix bugs.
They simply have a fairly awful record for using this tool. I think nurse was kill switched for soft lock for maybe 3 weeks years ago, yet twins wasn't for the same thing and it played twins for months (an entire chapter iirc).
Balanced landing should be kill switched right now until fixed, as should the add-on here.
This isn't an "us vs them", at least not for me. It's a criticism of the devs overall: if they aren't going to kill switch things or fix them for long periods of time, that is objectively a poor move.
The whole point of having a kill switch is to prevent issues so they can be fixed, and if they aren't using it ever, then they're missing the mark.
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Interesting to see that, overall, altruism gets you killed more.
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@Mr_K said:
DBD has been around so long we have this gap between those that know and those that don't. In this case those that played DBD before EGC and after.
Yup. I never played before they introduced EGC, but I understand that hatch standoffs were awful from people describing it.
Even after EGC, servers used to take 2 hours to close the game (iirc) and just shut down with no actual end of the match.
Now it's a hard 1 hour limit that closes out the game, which is still pretty egregious. Although I suppose the 4th iteration of this is the surrender option, which cuts that down even farther.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915663#Comment_3915663
That massive issue with Merciless Storm was in the game for like a year, doesn't make it right.
It was a bit over two months for that one, which still isn't good.
But I still find it to be an egregious error on the devs part that this wasn't kill switched. I can maybe understand if they have a fix already finished and are waiting for console cert or something (a couple days), but even then stuff should still be killed. That's what the system is for.
But waiting months for an issue and not killing the one perk that's causing the issue is just ridiculous. It's even worse when you see that a similar bug that auto completed gens (the inverse issue) was fixed in 6 days... The fastest post chapter patch I've ever seen.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915551#Comment_3915551
your saying killers that rely heavily on tunneling have artificially raised MMR to ranks where they don't belong but that makes no sense from my experience. I got my MMR to the ranks that I'm constantly getting swf and I didn't tunnel at all. After repeatedly losing to swf teams I started tunneling. Now your saying I shouldn't be on that MMR bracket and that this MMR bracket shouldn't need tunneling to win. Both of which are incorrect. If I didn't tunnel when I did I would be dropped in MMR bracket. So that says tunneling is needed to beat swf.
Ok, so my main point is that killers have tools that are easy for them to execute and are difficult for survivors to counter. That applies mainly to camping, tunneling, and slugging in this conversation. But since we're talking about boosting MMR, it also applies to metas (gen kick, 3 gen meta), or even bugs or unbalanced effects (merciless storm, or giga thrill).
Here's the thing, and you say it yourself:
After repeatedly losing to swf teams I started tunneling.
Even setting aside this assumption that the "evil SWF" is suddenly in every game, I need to point out:
You are literally saying you switched tactics because you wanted to win more
Winning became more important than having a fun game. Instead of accepting that more casual gameplay and the occasional loss that comes with that, you decided to sweat because winning became the most important thing.
Now your saying I shouldn't be on that MMR bracket and that this MMR bracket shouldn't need tunneling to win.
I'm saying that there is no universe where complaining that you have to tunnel is valid. There are only two options here:
If you don't want to play casually (ie, not competitively), then you can accept losing the occasional game. You can play however you want, accept the occasional loss, and kill about 60% of the survivors you face. This won't inflate your MMR either.
However, if you want to play competitively, then there's no valid reason to complain about your opponent also playing competitively. This is basically just saying that "I want to try as hard as possible to win, but it's not fair that my opponent is also trying". By the way, playing this way will also result in you killing about 60% of the survivors you face.
If I didn't tunnel when I did I would be dropped in MMR bracket.
Yes, that's what "boosting your MMR" means.
So that says tunneling is needed to beat swf.
No.
This is the wrong conclusion for a couple reasons. First is that being in a SWF doesn't mean they're automatically better players. There are casual SWF groups, and there are hyper competitive solo q players. Just because you have a hard game, does not mean they are SWF.
It's an even harder pill for most people to swallow: you aren't the best player in the entire game. There are players, SWF or not, who are simply better at the game than you are.
Struggling does not mean you're at the maximum the game has to offer, it means you're at the maximum you can handle as a player. You've hit the cap of where you can perform without significant improvement, and that's ok. Some people struggle and claim they're "Max MMR" and complain about not understanding literal fundamentals of the game.
You are beating SWF at your skill level, and likely steamrolling them so you don't even consider it.
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@CLHL said:
"You can easily reach the 60% Killrate without any excessive tunneling, camping or slugging." But the current killrate with all that is just around 60%, why? Do you really think that percentage will magically be maintained?
There's certainly a possibility of that.
Killers who heavily rely on those strategies have boosted their MMR above their actual skill level. Many of these players say things like "you have to tunnel to win" and "gens fly", and many times the reason for that is because the survivors they face are more efficient than they are. It's just that the killer has massively powerful tools available that tip the scale.
So yes, those players will lose games for a while as their MMR actually balances it to closer to their skill level, when and if those overpowered tools are toned down. Then, once they're playing against opponents closer to their actual skill level, they should be able to maintain the 60% again.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
This community has shown repeatedly that they can't handle actual statistics and will just make up whatever they want to push how they think things should be, regardless of BHVR's actual data.
Here's literally how this would go on these forums:
Kill rate too high? It's survivors fault. They aren't learning counterplay, or giving up too much, or just haven't brought the 47 perks and items required to make this happen. The pros escaped once, clearly it's a skill issue.
Kill rate isn't too high? Obviously the killer needs buffs. Doesn't matter which buffs, just throw anything on there: remove a cooldown, make an iri add-on base kit, all pallets explode into splinters and all vaults permanently blocked the second the match starts. Anything. Oh, and definitely nerf gens and buff regression.
I'm not engaging with this person anymore, but the comments that follow my initial statement prove my point pretty well.
Apparently I need to add "screaming for nerfs or complaining about features that don't yet exist, and the devs have released no information about" to my list also.
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This community has shown repeatedly that they can't handle actual statistics and will just make up whatever they want to push how they think things should be, regardless of BHVR's actual data.
Here's literally how this would go on these forums:
Kill rate too high? It's survivors fault. They aren't learning counterplay, or giving up too much, or just haven't brought the 47 perks and items required to make this happen. The pros escaped once, clearly it's a skill issue.
Kill rate isn't too high? Obviously the killer needs buffs. Doesn't matter which buffs, just throw anything on there: remove a cooldown, make an iri add-on base kit, all pallets explode into splinters and all vaults permanently blocked the second the match starts. Anything. Oh, and definitely nerf gens and buff regression.
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914751#Comment_3914751
Since when is the burden of proof on the person who rejects a claim? BHVR claims they can filter out games where survivors give up. I am not gonna believe them until they prove it. And hook suicides are only a small percentage of the way people give up.
This is kind a weirdly confused way of approaching this.
BHVR specifically said they looked for games where a survivor died on their first hook. So I could see some reasonable discussion about "this method had too many false positives or false negatives to be accurate", or "this doesn't account for everything" (which you kind of try to say at one point).
But you're going full bore into "I don't believe they can even track this at all" which seems unreasonable. It's fully within a computer's capability to record stats like this, and we know BHVR looks at game stats regularly.
And, as a thought experiment for you: I personally don't believe your claim that this is impossible for them to do. Which of us has the burden of proof? were both denying a claim at that point, and we both can't be right
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914989#Comment_3914989
Come on, everyone knows that Killers dont slug because of Hook Deadzones.
The "slugging meta" kicked off shortly after this change.
Almost as if at least some players wanted to send a message that they didn't have to but really want to.
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I'm what world are these even remotely comparable?
Adrenaline was purely passive, and did it automatically with no input from the survivor. It was also the only interaction where this occurred, and could happen in chase.
Why is it an issue for killer interactions that cannot happen in chase? All of these are areas where the survivor is physically stationary and cannot move during the interaction. While injured, in this particular case.
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The definition of "second chance" has been beaten into meaninglessness at this point. There are absolutely people who use this phrase to describe a survivor perk or item that "does anything". And, even worse, it often gets applied to things that literally do nothing (AFC, for example).
My favorite are things like DS, OTR, and unbreakable. Where if you bring them, they're "second chance perks", but if you don't bring them, it's "your fault for not bringing the tools for tunneling and slugging" apparently. That's not a second chance, that's any chance at all.
The same thing happened with BT before it was base kit: you didn't have a chance, you just got unhooked (by someone else, who didn't bring the perk) and instantly downed by the killer. There's no chance there, no agency at all. But somehow people want to claim that this is a "second chance".
This isn't 2017 DbD with infinites, dead hard for distance, and resources survivors can loop consistently. This is 2025 with dead zones everywhere, and pallets held up by toothpicks.
Manny of the comeback mechanics are core to the game loop and not even perks: camping, tunneling, slugging can all turn around a losing game... Or can define the game if used as a "strategy" from the lobby. Pallets are consumed, gens completed, makes the playable map area smaller for the killer. Hooks don't even break anymore, so you literally can't screw up the killer macro game anymore.
The only real second chance survivors get relies on the killer making mistakes (probably several mistakes). There are so few actual second chances for survivors, that you will likely lose the game if the team isn't glued to generators in the first minute or two.
A lost game is pretty obvious early on, and a huge reason people decide to go next is because there's no feasible way to recover if people don't gen rush right away. You can't rely on the killer fumbling the game anymore.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914254#Comment_3914254
I am jaded after years of listening to survivors bawl their eyes out about everything. Check any DBD post. ANY POST. And you’ll find countless survivors asking for things to be nerfed or saying “killer sided game”
They are cry babies. The vast majority. Some of the weakest killers in the game have been nerfed because survivors throw a fit and refuse to learn the counters.
Survivors are the ones who are being coddled. No more hook grabs. No more tunneling. No more slugging. No more face camping. No more camping at all. Basekit BT. Free anti camp. Literally insane.
No more hook grabs. No more tunneling. No more slugging. No more face camping. No more camping at all. Basekit BT. Free anti camp. Literally insane.
Are these anti camping, anti slugging, and anti tunneling mechanics in the room with us right now?
Cause all I see is that killers have to stand 11m from the hook and literally nothing else has changed. By the way, it's anti FACE camp. Funny how that changes depending on how bad people want to make it sound on paper.
Oh wait, except endurance doesn't stack, so base kit BT actually disables every anti tunnel perk in the game except DS because killers complained about it.
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Literally every response panning "playing with friends" falls completely apart when you consider that 2v8 is a thing.
How many of these wildly biased opinions apply when two killers are on comms? I'm betting there's some excuse when it also applies to killers.
Or you could just accept that people playing video games with their friends isn't evil. That avoids the whole "bias" part altogether.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
How about 2nd chance perk stacking? Can't have your whole build be DS UB OTR Adrenaline
Endurance already doesn't stack.
ETA: maybe, if they implement meaningful anti slugging, anti camping, and anti tunneling that they've put on the road map we could feasibly talk about caps or restrictions here.
But if we're about to get anything as pathetically weak as AFC is, then there's no chance the game would survive capping or limiting the literal only tools that even attempt to show down these strategies.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913217#Comment_3913217
They also only upgraded two killer perks to slightly higher haste in compensation…and one of those literally just makes killers run away from hooks faster which survivors want anyway. Survivors got a load of haste buffs on existing perks.
Dark theory, breakout, champion of light.
Vs
Furtive chase, unbound.
Those are the impacted perks according to the patch notes, yet I hardly call that "a load more".
The only other list I found was in the feedback section, which adds 2 more survivor perks and 7 more killer perks (and even more add-ons), though I can't confirm that these are official or just perks that the OP wants to add to the list to be looked at:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/442938/adding-on-to-the-haste-hindered-changes
Plus the main reason for removing haste stacking is to prevent things like power of two and hope from stacking with other effects.
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It's probably a harder hit to killers, yeah. Though I have basically zero sympathy for that impact.
A huge reason the devs even started looking at this was the outcry and daily complaining about how 3% haste "completely broke the game".
The devs listened to that "feedback" and are now finally fixing "broken haste" across the board. Those people made their bed, now sleep in it.
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BHVR has said directly that "holding a 3 gen for an 'extended' period, without downing or hooking a survivor" is considered "holding the game hostage", which is against the game rules.
Report the player in game, and provide evidence (usually video, or I suppose a steam vod link might work if they don't delete it). And they will ultimately decide how to proceed.
Although, I personally have little faith that this will do much, since this was a "meta strategy" when they said this before, and to my knowledge no one has ever been banned for it.
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Yeah.
The most upvoted perk will be something like: "Generators regress at 500% value, regression cannot be stopped, and continues even while being worked on. Regressing generators explode every 5/3/1 second, losing 50% progress and also taking one health state from each survivor within 50/60/70 meters. Downed survivors in this radius have their bleed out timer paused for 30 seconds, and 500 auric cells are transferred to the killer from each affected survivor."
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912752#Comment_3912752
Oh, I know. My comment is more satirical. That’s why at the end I said “idk not sure how to defend that” and the only thing I could think of was someone trying to justify it, saying that that kind of placement would be fine because you can only kick the gen a certain number of times.
Sorry my joking tone seems difficult to place. I’m in no way defending it. It was meant to be more sarcastic/satirical. As a SoloQ main, I recognize that this 3gen is an absolute death sentence.
Oh gotcha, I read it again and yeah it doesn't have the same tone the second read. My bad.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912752#Comment_3912752
Honestly you can just sit in the main doorway next the downstairs Generator. Survivors cannot physically access the upstairs Generators without being hit or bodyblocked, and Survivors downstairs are close enough to just swing at.
Also keep in mind that there are two Dull Totem spawn locations within that house (downstairs in the kitchen, upstairs in the "matress" room), so if you get lucky enough to have Hex: Ruin spawn there, you can bypass the 8-Regression Limit.
The more you think about this whole Gen Spread, the worse and funnier it gets.
Exactly, and you'd only have to defend it for 10 minutes before you can just auto win with the new abandon feature.
It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.
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@hermitkermit said:
Something something… can only kick 8 times…?
Idk this seems like a mistake. Not sure how to defend that lolYou know you can hit survivors, right? An unlimited number of times, in fact.
Imagine complaining that you have to patrol a single house....
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I'm on board with making repair speed not stack, and this should've been done years ago. The extremes of gen speeds is way, way too far.
The big issue though is how to communicate that to the player what's happening. Like with haste, they made it so you can see the haste bonus on the UI, which is a pretty clear indicator that the biggest bonus applies.
I'm not sure how they would communicate that without just putting the percentage near the arrows under the progress bar.
@TotemsCleanser said:
To be honest repair speeds stacking seems like something that needs addressing way more than haste/hindered stacking. I still don't understand why they want to nuke haste/hindered stacking builds when most builds these days revolve around gen speeds, not haste/hindered.
The focus on haste is probably due to having people scream at them for months about how broken 3% haste is. This is the other result of them listening to that feedback, after deleting MFT.
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Players: OMG haste of broken, even 3% completely destroys the game.
Devs: we hear you, we deleted that perk.
Players: thanks.
Devs: actually, you have a point, we're fixing all of the haste interactions.
Players: wait, no.
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So, I do agree that slugging should be situational, and those situations should be dependent on responses to gameplay. I'll leave "excessive slugging" off the table, since no one is talking about that.
So, when I say situational, I mean things like "the survivor off hook ran at me (probably has DS)" or "they sabotaged the hook I was heading for", or even "I saw someone looking for a flashlight save so I'll bait the pickup and chase them instead".
You're taking about slugging as a direct replacement for hooks, which is different. That's clearly not how the game is designed to work, since hooks exist.
It's the equivalent of old hatch. No one asked "why do killers not like the hatch spawn?"... Because hatch wasn't intended to be the primary way for survivors to escape. It was supposed to be rare, last hope for escape, and not "lul, let's do just enough gens to get everyone out with my key". So they changed it.
This is the same thing. Slugging isn't supposed to be the way survivors are put in time out every time. Hooks are a way to get survivors out of the game, with at least some chance of recovery. Slugging to avoid hits is literally just bypassing that intended mechanic, and going back to "I can just down you instantly again, with no consequence" that we had before base kit BT was put in.
And just like old hatch, this is an unintended use of that mechanic, and the devs should make sure the "anti slug" system curbs this type of slugging. I'm not sure what that system looks like that doesn't directly impact other forms of slugging, but if people are abusing the mechanic, and they clearly are, then it needs to be changed.
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Yeah, this is a pretty big oversight for blood gens. I'm hoping they iterate on this idea and fix this part.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910874#Comment_3910874
This is, imho, why there's been such a backlash to The Ghoul's power. Because they just counter the mindless run from pallet to pallet hold W gameplay, and survivor only players are upset they actually have to engave their brains for a change.
They've nerfed maps to where most pallets are the equivalent of wedged between a picnic table and a telephone pole, and you think the smart play is to try and loop that against a killer who can hit over pallets and through terrain?
It's funny to me… killers camp and tunnel because it's "how comp players play" as though it's some kind of 500 IQ play and call it "strategy". Then, if survivors play like it's comp and gen rush and pre drop, they're apparently idiots. Hysterical, if you weren't actually serious in this opinion.
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Franklins by itself is fine, but I'm still convinced that weave attunement is too much value for one perk.
It's got the value of at least 4 perks in one:
- You have to drop your item at the start of the match, revealing your position. (Lethal pursuer)
- You have to go drop said item in a corner somewhere, which is mandatory travel time before you can jump on gens (corrupt intervention).
- You lose the immediate use of your item without going to collect it. (Item counter)
- It's wall hacks if any of your teammates don't understand what to do. (This is the actual aura read of the perk)
- For whatever reason, it also makes you oblivious.
And I'm going to point out, that the first two are the value the killer gets for the survivors "successfully countering" this perk. And no, you don't even have to run franklins to get that value, since anyone with a brain cell is going to see Weave and just assume you have franklins (even if you don't run it also).
So you get this entire list for just running weave attunement, even without franklins.
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So, what exactly problems are you targeting to solve? It looks like gens being boring, and I guess weaker maps or maybe information?
You list a lot of things and then give out two changes, but what is your goal with these changes?
Second, is that I'm generally opposed to "just add X base kit" as a solution. Not that you shouldn't ever do it or consider it, but you should really look at the problem your trying to solve, really decide that adding something base kit is the best option, and then consider as many possible pitfalls or problems that can arise from that as you can before even testing it.
There's an awful lot of "just make X base kit" that gets talked about on the forums, and it should be pretty rare that that is actually the answer. Most things already have perks, play styles, or even game knowledge, game sense, or skill that are valid or viable solutions.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909728#Comment_3909728
Which announcement? I can't seem to find it
I can't seem to find it either, except maybe the Game Health Phase 2 anti tunnel feature? They haven't announced details afaik yet, but that's all I can think of.
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@SomeGuy1246 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909406#Comment_3909406
I do agree a bit with him because against really strong SWF and comp teams. The PTB reassurance is basically —> "The survivors have an infinite amount of time to unhook as long as someone comes from time to time to reassurance" which is insanity because against these groups of players. You either have to tunnel someone to 3v1 ASAP or some killers can ping pong 2 survivors like blight but ultimately go into 3v1 scenario because 4v1 is survivor sided. All this power with only one person not hooked having reassurance (maybe I am understanding it wrong).
It really sounds like breaking the fundamental concept of hook time.
While true that you can get a kinda similar effect with a lot of shoulder right now, you need more overall perk slots to pull it off I guess and you still don't get as much time but not sure if the average pub survivors would have been able to get value from that.
This reasoning of "having infinite time on hook" doesn't hold water under scrutiny though.
It's not in the survivor's best interest to have a teammate in time out for longer than is necessary. Most comp, or even just high level teams unhook as soon as possible: "hook bombing" is a thing.
The only reason to even use reassurance is if the killer is just standing at the hook, preventing an unhook entirely. Nothing is keeping the killer there except their own agency.
Reassurance just makes that "possibly not the best strategy", and honestly, with the short range that reassurance has the killer can leave the survivor on hook and chase the reassurer and still have more pressure than just standing still.
I don't buy the "you have to camp and tunnel to win" arguments. It's a cop out for people who think they're gods at the game (or "max MMR", as this community tends to say it). You don't have to be max MMR, or even understand the fundamentals to struggle, you only have to have hit your skill ceiling. And people will default to camping and tunneling as easy strategies, rather than improving skills like map pressure, looping correctly, or even game sense.
Plus the fact that they're planning yet another anti camp feature, tell me the devs don't actually want the gameplay to be "killer waiting at a hook". We might've had progress toward that years ago, but people complained.
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It's about 40% by official stats, although that ignores every game with a disconnect.
So, even though killers can disconnect and raise the escape value, survivors disconnecting is more common. And usually a survivor disconnecting means the team is not likely to escape.
The actual "player experience" is probably in the 30%-40% range. Nightlight, with limited stats, has the "overall kill rate" at about 57%, so a 43% escape rate.
Although your personal experience is going to be impacted by things like region, time of day, MMR, how many teammates you group with, whether you're doing challenges or sweating, etc.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909337#Comment_3909337
PTB Reasurance was NOT fine and was insanely busted. It allowed survivors to be insanely greedy with little punishment. I shouldn’t have to explain why it was very problematic. Common sense should show you that.
The only reason I can see that this was a problem was that it might have actually made an impact against camping, as opposed to what we have now.
The only thing people complained about, and why it was reworked, was the griefing issue. Which was not only overblown, but much more easily solved in one sentence, which I already showed.
Aside from "it might've actually done something", what do you think was problematic about the perk?
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@SomeGuy1246 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909337#Comment_3909337
I honestly don't believe PTB reassurance would have changed anything. Getting reassurance even once was devastating for hard campers at the time. But even in an environment where camping was so common. I remember most people were not running reassurance and a lot of people who did were not really that good at using it (Rebecca mains I see you). And a lot of them were simply not doing gens all trying to rescue even though the guy on hook had kindred and you said you had reassurance pre game chat.
So I guess there's also a part of survivors skill issue and they had to built-in stuff because people were getting demolished but I also don't know if it's "healthy" to NEED a perk to counter a playstyle. But hey; I mean perks that feel "needed" aren't that new right ? Regression, anti-tunnel, yada yada
There's no way to know how it would've played out at this point.
The real reason I think PTB reassurance would've made a difference is that only one survivor could go to the camped hook, and extend the duration for (almost) as long as needed.
The duration was 30 seconds iirc with a 40 second cooldown. So a 60s hook could be paused, tick down for 10 seconds and be paused again, as long as the killer is camping. And it would've only taken one survivor (plus the one on hook) to do that.
In theory, that puts tremendous pressure on the killer to leave the hook. The other two survivors have time to finish gens and the killer isn't getting anything extra in return for standing around. Which, unless it's a last minute end game hook, is exactly how that *should* play out.
I personally think camping (as a "strategy" you plan to do every game) is one of the most boring things in the game. You aren't displaying any skill by watching the furniture, you're hoping the survivor team panics and falls apart. Camping should be relatively rare, situational tactic, not "always camp every hook, every time" like it seems to be for some people now.
When or if the survivors don't panic, people aren't self-reflecting and thinking, "wow I really could've used my time better, maybe push someone off of a gen to slow them down instead of lurking near a hook", instead they complain on the forums and demand that gen speeds be nerfed, or regression be buffed.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909330#Comment_3909330
true but killers usually melt down because they nerf gen regression without nerfing gen speeds and then when killers just swapped to slug builds they just nerfed that right away making killers just go back to gen regression
nerf gen regression without nerfing gen speeds
This is simply, just untrue. If anything, it's exactly backwards.
They added extra time to gens and gave killers the strongest regression meets we've ever seen in the same patch (6.1).
They nerfed prove and completely deleted BNP by request as well.
What happened in reality is that they nerfed gen speeds and giga buffed regression at the same time, and then had to walk back regression when killers were literally holding games hostage.
Since those nerfs, they've also made huge strides to reduce chases: maps and entire realms reworked, pallets are vastly weaker, tile spawn logic prevents chaining as much, base kit killer buffs in almost every patch for a year or more now. They're even nerfing map offerings by request.
Most 2025 killers will always go toward regression, and insist or even demand gen kick meta levels of regression back, on top of the changes that have happened since.
People spend every advantage to win, boosting their MMR way, way above their skill level, and then complain about gen speeds and regression. They've made chases so much easier, and that's not what (some) people actually want. They don't want a PVP challenge, they want to play pve gen kick simulator for an hour and call it a PVP win.
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My opinion on reassurance hasn't changed since release.
PTB reassurance was perfectly fine, and even if we want to consider "griefing" scenarios (where the killer and at least two survivors all work together to hold someone on hook indefinitely), that situation is/was completely, entirely solved by "press e to cancel reassurance".
If the perk hadn't been completely gutted from ptb to release, we may not have needed all of the other mechanics like StB, AFC, or even the upcoming "anti camp" feature.
But, "hello, fellow survivors" won that fight years ago, and we are where we are today because of it.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909218#Comment_3909218
they already capped slowdown with the 8 gen kick limit and if you bring eruption or if survivors are in a specific area with surge you don't have gen regression anymore
Yeah, and that was a good start.
Things like penti and thana stacking is a big part why thana got nerfed, because almost 3 minutes for a single gen was obscene.
This also, BTW, applies to progression: so things like deja Vu, prove, etc no longer stack either.
It feels like some people really, really want this to apply to survivors only (for "gen rushing" and haste), yet then melt down when it also gets applied to killers.