AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900504#Comment_3900504
watch hens video about genrush, real option
You mean the most recent one 3 weeks ago where they broke the world record, with a highly coordinated comp level team in 2:34?
And OP is claiming that their "pub game" finished theirs in either 2:33, or 2:13 depending on which post you read. Something is absolutely wrong in this narrative.
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Even if I take literally everything you said here at face value (you aren't making it up, exaggerating, or mistaken), corrupt intervention by itself prevents this.
What are you doing at the start of the match? Because this sounds like 4 survivors have no pressure for 2 minutes and are allowed to sit on gens while you, I guess... just set up and collect traps? I'm not sure what even takes trapper 2 minutes, since you should be intercepting survivors at minimum after the first one or two gens pop.
Gonna take some gameplay video or even just a screen shot of your build to say anything more, honestly.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900344#Comment_3900344
That 2.5% number seemed SUPER low to me. Just in general, you have ppl giving up against any killer in way more games than that and SM had probably the highest suicide rate. It really makes me skeptical about the accuracy of the stats. I have back to back instant suicide attempts sometimes when I play PIG, with on average it happening in probably 20% of matches.
This is where the global statistics are an average, and doesn't necessarily reflect the experience of an individual.
There are players who go on 3k and 4k streaks for hundreds or thousands of games. There are solo q players who can play an entire weekend and maybe escape twice in 30 matches. But those aren't everyone's experiences.
People also misinterpret things a lot on these forums, such as: "everyone is a cheater" and "I only ever go against a full 4 man SWF".
This, though, is why I'm glad that BHVR kind of stopped giving out stats as much. This community doesn't know how to understand them or interpret them.
SM was a huge red flag, will a kill rate astronomically higher than every other killer, survivors saying that she sucks to go against, and even killers saying she felt like crap.
Yet with all of those indicators, and statistics supporting that she needs to be desperately reworked and isn't in a good place at all, there are people who looked at all of that, and did what you did: ignore almost all of it and actually insist that she should only be buffed. Which, doing so would've only make the kill rate and the survivor experience worse.
At that point, those people are deliberately ignoring (or intentionally misinterpreting) the stats because it just doesn't suit their narrative.
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@bazarama said:
I would love hooks to count towards killer strength stats instead of some made up percentage.
Killer gets 4 downs or dc /bleed out = 4k.
Zero hooks. Is killer too strong?
Unfortunately at the moment going for hooks actually hinder the killer hence the slugging meta.
If it was me I'd have ALL hooks do some slight gen regression and alter gen regression perks.
Make going for hooks worthwhile and make the game what it should be - chase and hook.
They can publish whatever rubbish they think is the killer rate but it means nothing if they are counting dc and bleeding out as killer wins/strength.
They can publish whatever rubbish they think is the killer rate but it means nothing if they are counting dc and bleeding out as killer wins/strength.
Games with a disconnect are not ever counted in kill rates. If anyone disconnects at any point, the game is thrown out and doesn't count toward the kill rate in any way. The devs have confirmed this time and time again.
They also have a limited view of "giving up" in that they track (but usually don't give to the community), which is games where someone dies on their first hook. With the skull merchant, they actually gave those stats for her specifically, and it was about 2.5% difference. So in an "extreme case" it didn't change the value that much, since she went from a 71% insane kill rate to a 68% with no disconnects and no deaths on first hook (giving up).
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Iirc, they usually update the avatars in batches every so often. I didn't know the full process obviously, but it usually seems to be in waves with large gaps in between. So we're probably due soon, tbh.
Although, I'm not sure how licenses affect that as well. I'm not sure if losing the hellraiser license soon has any bearing or impact on the availability (it doesn't seem to for, say, demo when ST was gone for a couple years). Maybe a mod or community manager can clarify.
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I don't think it has much effect, and certainly doesn't redeem the perk at all, but imo no mither should start the survivor as healthy and make them permanently broken the first time they are injured by any means.
It would eliminate part of the perk that screams "tunnel me" right as the match starts without really buffing the perk in a meaningful way.
I don't think it's inherently bad to show the broken status in general though.
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The last statistics they gave for chases was something like each survivor averages about 60 seconds of chase time per match. And at "high MMR" that only goes up to 67 or so seconds iirc.
So for survivors who are getting 3 hooked, they're getting about 20 seconds per chase or so on average.
That's not a lot, and the current trend of useless pallets, dead zones, and shoe box sized maps helps keep that number down.
Edit: found it, July 2024 stats:
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@MrT1412 said:
Perks like Dead Hard and Shoulder the Burden are very literally second chance perks. You get an extra hit in chase, and a third hook state.
On their own they don't seem too huge, but when you have stuff like that on every survivor, it's a lot of extra time.
I've never seen a perk as misunderstood or maybe as misinterpreted as StB.
The perk only moves the hook state, so if you just tunnel one person, then yeah you might have to deal with 3 hooks on that person, but the perk announces itself, exposes the unhooker, and the person using StB has one less hook state.
So chasing the unhooker, who literally screams at you that they used it, means nothing changes. You had one hook, and still have someone on second hook... If only you chase the person who screamed.
StB is a game sense and game knowledge check, which apparently an awful lot of people fail that test.
Also, in your doom scenario, if all 4 survivors run StB then no one gets any "extra hooks", they're just passing the hooks around for no reason. So apparently this isn't a second chance perk, even by your definition.
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There's really only two considerations:
- Do I enjoy the voice acting? Can I stand to listen to this character scream, cry, and whimper constantly for an entire match? Some characters the answer is absolutely no.
- Is there a particular look, style, or cosmetic that I like for this character?
I'm a Yui main, but also play Cheryl or Zarina depending on what kind of build I'm running.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898451#Comment_3898451
lol if that was a thing it wouldn't be worth using. i don't use corrupt for the same reason because cause the perk is punishing you for doing your objective
Corrupt is there specifically for early game zoning survivors and preventing them from touching the first gen they see.
The whole point is to allow the killer to either set up or develop pressure first. If you get a down, that's pressure. CI is on a timer, if you can't find a survivor in 2 minutes, what are you focusing on?
Similar to ruin, if you've already killed off one survivor, the gens won't matter any more. You've essentially already won the game (if gens remain), and gens literally don't matter if it's end game.
The only reason you think this would be a bad change is because you'd literally still run full regression and hard tunnel if the game was reworked to be 3v1. In which case, this is exactly the kind of reason why this mechanic needs to exist.
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I always thought they reverted the wrong part of the perk a couple years ago.
They should've put it back at 200%, but left in the part where it deactivates completely if a survivor is killed.
Keep the anti tunnel part in, but revert the regression.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898394#Comment_3898394
Separating the two makes zero sense. You get 3 health states TWICE. You get get 3 perks for 80 seconds TWICE. You have a total elapsed time of having 3 perks in one for 160 seconds.
What is there not to understand? These aren’t mutually exclusive.
Because you were counting health states. And we specifically argued it.
If you'd said "each unhook" or "either 4, 5, or 6 health states", then we'd be talking about match value potentially.
But since you specifically argued for "3 health states", which you insisted was "healthy, endurance, and injured"... Well that's one hook.
If you meant per match, that would be up to 6 health states.
But you didn't. You switched from 3 health states (on one hook) to 160 second (per match) mid sentence. I've quoted that sentence twice now.
You could admit you wrote it wrong, but so far all you've done is attack and condescend me for you saying something that was, at best, unclear, and at worst textbook gaslighting.
At this point, either way, I've said what I needed to and my comments are in writing as is. I'm out, good luck with your matches.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898361#Comment_3898361
You do know it’s 60 seconds in a minute right? 180 is 3 minutes. OTR is 80 per hook state 160 in total. I know math is hard but it’s not THAT hard😂
It. An even be 240 seconds with STB as well which is 4 minutes total.
Look, I know forums math isn't people's strong suit in any way, but
You can't argue health states as one hook (injured+endurance) or as you argued it (healed to full+injured+endurance) then switch it to counting for the entire match when it suits you.
At least be consistent. Since we've been talking about one unhook this whole time, with injured and endurance being the two health states it's 80 seconds. Otherwise you're either just being disingenuous or can't count health states for the entire match. I'm guessing it's the disingenuous one.
ETA: since you seem to claim you switched from one hook to two in mid sentence this confusion is you getting it wrong, not me reading it wrong. Here's what you wrote:
Even if you don’t utilize the three health states you get you get 2 other perks on top of that for almost 3 minutes.
The only reason you're stretching this is because you want the numbers to look as bad as you possibly can.
And my point still stands, regardless, that if the survivors perk is making them not progress the game voluntarily then on both hooks is even better for the killer. If the person wasted 80 seconds doing nothing the first time and then decided to further do nothing again, that's more slowdown than any killer perk has ever given.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898342#Comment_3898342
You’re making a whole bunch of points that are completely irrelevant to the discussion. And a whole lot of strawmans.
The perk does way too much is what I’m saying. Even if you don’t utilize the three health states you get you get 2 other perks on top of that for almost 3 minutes.
Call me biased if you want to. I used to use it all the time till Otzdarva talked about how Overpowered it was and I experienced what he said for myself.
You’re making a whole bunch of points that are completely irrelevant to the discussion.
All I'm talking about is how the game functions. I'm sorry you think that's irrelevant, but that just proves my point.
And a whole lot of strawmans.
There's no straw man here, it's called argument ad absurdum. I'm taking your complaint to it's logical conclusion and showing why it's ridiculous. Saying "it slows down tunneling" is completely meaningless since pallets also do that.
You simply aren't giving any kind of reasonable basis for your position, but that's not my fault.
Even if you don’t utilize the three health states you get you get 2 other perks on top of that for almost 3 minutes.
- It's 80 seconds. Not even a full gen, let alone 3 minutes. Please don't get the numbers wrong (hilariously wrong) while trying to tell me how I don't understand the game.
- Even if they use the full 80 seconds, they aren't on gens for that time. If they aren't being chased either, then congratulations, you've gotten someone to do effectively nothing instead of progressing the game, while chasing someone else. You've discovered map pressure. Good job.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898321#Comment_3898321
Yes it is 3 health states if you fully heal. And I’m the one who doesn’t understand game mechanics huh? We have been talking about OTR since the first comment where I mentioned it, maybe pay attention?
It’s free, you’re in no danger. No punishment for doing it. Killers are always in a time deficit so it’s not that big of a deal and it hurts some killer more than others.
It doesn’t prevent tunneling but certainly makes it harder, doesn’t it?
Yes it is 3 health states if you fully heal.
That's not a part of the perk. If the killer isn't tunneling, then the survivors healing up is two people not on gens.
You seem to just be complaining that survivors aren't standing around AFK.
Look, the basic fundamental aspect of this game is that survivors are reacting to the killer's actions and power. That means the killer gives the survivors something to do, because otherwise they just do gens and leave.
So literally anything, including being chased, hooked, downed, unhooking, healing, interacting with the killer or the killers power, even going for saves... Is all because the killer did something (or even base kit power) they have to respond to. It's not free, all of that takes people off of gens. That's the point.
You seem to not be even capable of looking at anything from a survivor standpoint, and your mindset is purely biased toward the killer here.
It doesn’t prevent tunneling but certainly makes it harder, doesn’t it?
By this logic, maps should just be the basement and nothing else, since anything other than an empty field "slows down tunneling". Nothing stops tunneling.
This isn't a blocked gen, broken hook, or lightborn where is physically impossible to do something. It's a casual suggestion to not tunnel. And instead of taking that suggestion, you and nearly every killer not only ignores it completely, but comes here to complain that it even exists.
I'm so sorry you hit a speed bump while running that survivor over, that must be awful for you. /s
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898287#Comment_3898287
That tells me everything I need to know, thanks! There is a reason why advanced teams always harass his traps.
On top of that: Removing a bear Trap for feee, Removing condemned for free, cleansing uroborous for free, cleansing contamination for free, STOPPING A CHAIN HUNT FOR FREE, removing drones for free, kicking victor for free.
Plenty of powerful things to counter killers and their powers that you have to do anyways but now you can do it with 3 health states. On TOP of iron will and distortion all rolled into a single perk.
You really must not play that often, which is fine. But still making such a strong statement without really knowing about it is kind of strange.
Removing a bear Trap for feee, Removing condemned for free, cleansing uroborous for free, cleansing contamination for free, STOPPING A CHAIN HUNT FOR FREE, removing drones for free, kicking victor for free.
It's not free. It takes survivor time to do, and the only... *only* advantage survivors have is action economy. That's time not on gens, and it's anything but free.
3 health states. On TOP of iron will and distortion all rolled into a single perk.
Ok so, you have to be talking about OTR here, without saying it. OTR does not give 3 health states, since you are injured off hook and endurance only works once. It also doesn't stop tunneling, since none of those features, even together, stop the killer from following you off of hook.
Your post demonstrates a staggering lack of understanding of game mechanics, tbh. Respectfully, you aren't in a position to try to accuse someone else of not playing the game.
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Solo q is just fodder at this point.
I'm tentatively hopeful that phase 2 might bring back some hope for solo q... But I'm realistically expecting the anti camp, anti tunnel, and anti slug mechanics to be trivially easy for killers to bypass at will. Basically like how AFC is effectively just a recommendation that the killer stage slightly farther away (but you have like 40 seconds to do so before anything actually happens).
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I still don't see the need for the distortion nerf, but whatever. It's just another perk for the pile at this point.
But as for the most common reasonings for this nerf, I just don't buy it:
"But it was used by rats to hide all match". Yep. Now they just use lockers. Still hides the auras, permanently, and avoids crows. Great success. So I guess we'll move the goal post and target that next or something.
"One perk shouldn't counter an entire category". By this logic, lightborn should also be nerfed. That counters entire categories of both perks and items, has no charges, no restrictions, no cooldown, infinite use. It's also one of the only actual hard counters in the entire game for those reasons.
(Personally I think lightborn is fine, but if you're arguing this point for distortion, you've got some real mental gymnastics going on.)
But no, don't expect distortion to be buffed.
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So there's a huge disconnect with this phrasing.
Survivors tend to say they "want an alternate objective" and mean they want something other than gens. Go on a scavenger hunt, collect parts, but not staring at a progress bar for minutes at a time.
Killers tend to say they "want survivors to have an alternate objective" just like you mentioned: an extra task on top of gens to slow the game down. Usually this task must be: mandatory to escape (chests exist), provide no detriment to the killer (hexes exist), and provide no additional benefit to the survivor for doing it (boons exist). So, it's literally indistinguishable from just having more gens to do.
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This is one of my favorite "bad but fun" builds. The most fun game I've ever had was spoon Myers on lery's jump scaring the survivors. Even got the Feng to chase me through the map at one point.
Sad to see it go, but I get it.
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So, regarding improvement: I usually play with no add-ons for a while when learning a killer, then try everything over time to see how it feels.
I'm not a huntress player, personally, but if you're having issues with hatchet economy, you can try adding hatchets to compensate slightly for locker spawns. As your aim improves you shouldn't need them as much. There are also wind up speed add-ons and shiny pin for movement speed during wind up that might help with loops.
Regarding maps: there's no perfect map for all killers. Killers like huntress and nurse would prefer an empty field with nothing to obscure line of sight, while someone like ghost face would be unplayable on that. The opposite extreme is true, where GF needs los blockers to approach, but those actively hinder other killers.
Maps can still be playable though, even if not perfect. You can, for example, throw hatchets down a hallway on lery's, but can't orbital strike like you could on dead dawg. Those are techniques you'd learn along the way, and possibly watching some content creators who have mastered huntress would help there.
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I'm convinced this is a feature of the matchmaker system.
I'm pretty sure that even in a world where infinite survivors of every single MMR were available, it would choose two that are the same MMR as the killer, one much higher, and one much lower.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897369#Comment_3897369
I don’t think the kill rate matters at all when it comes to how the devs balance. We have a few killers at 50-53% and have been for a year and when asked if they would get buffed a certain person from DBDs team said “just get better”
Kill rate isn't the entire picture.
Nurse, historically one of the strongest killers in the game, has always had a low kill rate. Nurse and huntress (since you reference that killer) both have the situation where they do require some game knowledge and practice to master, but are available for new players. That can dilute the kill rate for people just picking up the game.
SM had three huge red flags that all point to the same thing:
- Insanely high kill rate (69% after you ignore games with disconnects or where survivors die in first hook (give up)).
- Killers saying her power feels like garbage.
- Survivors saying she's awful to go against, in large numbers.
All of these are indicators that her power is just not good and desperately needs a rework. An actual rework.
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@bazarama said:
Don't make me laugh.
Gen regression nerfd into oblivion because survivors didn't like it.
10 seconds extra on hook with next to nothing regression to counter said extra gen progression.
Limited gen regression to 8 hits.
Increasing aura on certain killers.
Hooking that actually gives survivors second chance perks often resulting in a free escape in end game.
Boil over, flip-flop, pallet stun, flashlight stun, flashbang stun, body blocks, sabotage, ds are all available to prevent hooking.
Then they introduced shoulder the burden.
Just some of the things that show survivors are so hard done by.
NB: I have no problem with hatch as it can be fun running around the map to see who finds it first.
Gen regression nerfd into oblivion because survivors didn't like it.
Gen regression nerfed because killers used gen kick and 3 gen meta for a full year and held games hostage with regression perks. It took 3 rounds of perk nerfs, a killer rework, and a new base kit mechanic to get people to stop, and all we've heard since then it's complaints that people want all of it back.
10 seconds extra on hook with next to nothing regression to counter said extra gen progression.
10 extra seconds on hook finally added after over 2 years, since this should've gone live with the extra 10 seconds of gen speed added in 6.1. killers enjoyed 2 years of buffed camping and tunneling thanks to that delay.
Limited gen regression to 8 hits.
Yup. This was the final straw they had to implement to actually kill off the 3gen meta, since nothing else had yet worked. Interestingly, this also came with a free, base kit anti gen tap mechanic as compensation for that change... Where's that in your list?
Increasing aura on certain killers.
Since I assume you mean "terror radius" here, they also reduced the terror radius for stealth killers. Not sure why a consistency patch is included, but if you're looking to stretch it then I suppose having "high mobility" killers with higher TR could be on a list. Could also be seen as a buff to terror radius perks, and is absolutely a buff to the stealth killers. Seems like cherry picking to me.
Hooking that actually gives survivors second chance perks often resulting in a free escape in end game.
You have to be talking about only the base kit BT feature. No other unhook perk works in the end game anymore (as of that same patch actually). This is countered by counting to ten. It also didn't change the effect, since before this everyone ran the perk. It was mandatory. This was a good change unless you hard camped a lot, which tracks for a lot of killers on this forum actually.
Boil over, flip-flop, pallet stun, flashlight stun, flashbang stun, body blocks, sabotage, ds are all available to prevent hooking.
DS had been nerfed since it was actually good at deterring tunneling. They couldn't even make it 5s again because people complained. Everything else in this list has been around for a long time. However, they've added things like starstruck, and awakened awareness, and a huge host of aura perks to help with this. Since we're taking about hook denial, they also made hooks respawn even on sacrifice.
Interacting with the killer also means people aren't on gens.
Then they introduced shoulder the burden.
StB only moves the hook state, announces that it's being used, and then makes the person with the new hook state exposed. The only people who complain about this perk are the ones that don't understand how it works, or completely lack the game sense to counter it.
Fixed these for you.
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Why would a Killer do that?
Google DbD backpack build.
Or just griefing, which would also happen.
There's no real benefit for removing this mechanic. Hooks respawn, maps are smaller, some maps have hooks basically kissing each other. If someone actually wiggles off they either have a full build dedicated to it, or the killer made several major mistakes in a row.
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You can practice the fundamentals of the new killers power with bots in custom games. It's there specifically for this purpose.
If you feel like you have the basics of that killer down already, then understand you should want the skill ceiling to be higher than the floor.
I'm not sure why it's so taboo to lose a game because you haven't instantly mastered the character after five minutes. Only on these forums does this weird expectation seem to exist where you should be able to simultaneously learn the character from scratch while dominating every game at the same time.
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People spent two years arguing for healing nerfs because survivors spent time off gens healing and it was considered op.
Now that that's been nerfed into the ground, were back to "being injured is too powerful".
Just say it: you want survivors to start the trial on hook.
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@DBD78 said:
Change the killers power and remove turrets. Killers should be fun to play not frustrating.
The turrets are a form of slowdown tho. It's pretty clear that people don't consider that part, and the survivors have to spend time collecting, traveling slowly, and setting up turrets for them to be effective. That's time not on gens.
And the one main thing I haven't seen literally anyone talking about, but it's the reason they made all of the changes to fire in the first place: that it takes almost twice as long to break you out of your power now. The intention appears to be that it should take at least 2 turrets to break xeno out of their power.
Now, I'm not saying they dialed the values correctly the first try, but if they want survivors to lure you through two different turrets to even do anything, then they can't have it fall off immediately or quickly either.
Which is why they changed the timer for the fire to start dissipating, and the dissipation rate. If they didn't do that, then the only counter play becomes setting up a turret box with at least 2 turrets to be effective. That's a pretty big turret nerf if they didn't do anything else.
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They're already making map offerings only a 20% chance, and not stack anymore, so this reasoning that it's to dilute the map pool as an offering nerf feels off.
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@Chiky said:
the perk i absolute trash, it needs a fully charged fire up to be any noticebale...
You don't have to run it, but it is an alternative to fire up that doesn't require something like "completed gens".
It also directly benefits hit and run play styles.
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So, #1 would be why?
This is worded a bit vaguely, but since you say
Make the Skill Check Overcharge sized and equal a guaranteed down on fail.
That sounds like the survivor gets the skill check, because why would the killer get rewarded with an insta down for missing it. Yet this is at odds with:
I just think chaining two chase commands is really fast. HM can very easily catch up and get a hit. Without another Survivor nearby it's a free hit.
So are hits really easy and fast? Because it sounds like your opinion is that the killer is already doing well in chase.
#2: I don't believe that RNG quick time events like skill checks have any place in chase. Especially if that RNG means the survivor is insta downed. That's gonna feel like garbage for the survivor if, well, sorry you get half a chase because the game randomly decided you get one shot. That's one of the least fun mechanics I've ever heard of.
Also, skill checks lock controls, which is why they only appear when the character is stationary and interacting with an object. So not only will the character stop dead (mid chase) but at least on PC, vault/locker/drop pallet are all bound to the same input as "hit skill check".
So if I get hit while trying to vault, it's going to pop up a skill check that I instantly fail because I wanted to vault instead simply because RNG was involved. That's terrible game design.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895769#Comment_3895769
I mean I main doctor so I'm there too. I'm just pointing out how survivors will be happy when a killer loses ways to express skill then complain about how all they face is nurse and blight
The only people I see who are saying it's a positive change are killer players who play on console, because that "tech" isn't available unless you have mnk.
Are these survivors in the room with us right now? This just feels like unnecessary "us vs them".
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@Dadeordye said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895703#Comment_3895703
Ran into this sometimes in 2v8 and found out some streamers also doing this.
This is the dumbest way to work on a gen.
Chase them off. The gen is regressing by their choice, and they lose progress. It's free ruin.
This isn't common, and if this is happening by a handful of people, one missed skill check is a huge setback. Also, this isn't gen rushing, it's deliberately slower.
This doesn't even work against jolt or pain res. You're literally mad they're playing inefficiently because you want to kick a gen. (If this is even happening at all, which I doubt except for maybe memes).
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894567#Comment_3894567
Let me answer by asking a question.
Is it alright to see 2-3 Syringes almost every single game now?
The problem for me isn't that you're getting a passive heal. That is strong but not overpowered. To me the problem starts when you metagame the ######### out of syringes, which can lead to really obnoxious games like it was back when instablind flashlights were a thing.
Pack a syringe + we're gonna live forever and bring a guy who sabos hooks. The guy on the ground can be healed passively in 8 seconds and he gets 10 seconds of endurance and there is literally nothing the killer can do about this except pick up again and pray that he doesn't get blinded (that is, if he even realizes what is going on — since there is no indication that a syringe was used).
Don't get me wrong, I also want busted ######### removed from killers.
That is why I am saying that this might require some attention. So I am making this thread to get more opinions. Because it is a developing trend that, quite frankly, should be monitored.
I too play survivor. I too used syringes and they do make things a lot easier. Will a syringe singlehandedly win you your matches? Hell no, that's not the point I'm making. Just now I played another trapper match vs 2 syringes and I won at 2 gens. What I'm trying to say is that 4 min-maxing pros can team up and bully the ever living ######### out of killers for many, many games on end.
You can only do this so long until people either stop playing killer or resort to running the obligatory quad slowdown blight everyone loves so much. I do like variety and I'm telling you that playing Pig vs that stuff makes you question your life decisions.
Is it alright to see 2-3 Syringes almost every single game now?
Why wouldn't it be?
These are one time use abilities, that consume both the add-on and the medkit, and can be interrupted by the killer. It's not a guaranteed heal. This is also one of the most telegraphed abilities in the game.
The options here are either: A) nerfing syringes, and removing survivor choices or B) actually making any other option viable.
Because currently, as far as items as a whole go, we have:
- Maps. Absolutely worthless. The only thing that's even useful is the column of light, which could be even be base kit and it wouldn't matter, which takes an add-on.
- Keys: when was the last time you saw a key? For me? Pre hatch rework like 3 years ago, and maybe once when people were playing with the no collision tech for a minute.
- Toolboxes, but people hate gen rushing already.
- Medkits. Already nerfed, and the syringe or the extra heal are the only good add-ons.
- Flashlights. The "fun" but not always "optimal strategy" option.
You're looking at it as "everyone is bringing this and it's a problem", but it seems from a standpoint of "they shouldn't be allowed to do that". There's basically only two item choices here, and the other is even more universally hated (toolboxes).
So either:
- buff other options, give people an actual choice. Since there's no universe where keys or maps are even playable except memes or challenges.
- Nerf syringes.
- Remove player agency and don't allow people to stack multiple of the same items or add-ons somehow.
Those are basically the options on the table. I'm fine with looking at keys and maps. They're just dead weight currently. Would that make a difference? Maybe, maybe not. But it's the healthiest choice.
If we're preventing stacking and interfering with player agency, then that opens a whole can of worms. Might even kill the game if I can't choose my loadout and join a random lobby where someone is already using my perk, item, or add-on.
But if even stacking these add-ons or items isn't changing the game outcome, and can be overcome by killer ability (like you say it can, and present the screenshots to prove that it can be) then maybe the answer is nothing needs to be done about syringes specifically right now.
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894563#Comment_3894563
Well there it is, folks. Not reading threads again. You're more of a headline guy, aren't you.
I read it, but you specifically say "you didn't want them nerfed" but also "might require some attention".
So explain that for me.
Clearly your don't think they should be buffed in any way. So explain what you think should be done. You aren't approaching this generally: "sweaty gameplay isn't fun" or something, you've specifically identified syringes. "Busted" as you say.
You say yourself that you win the games, and that your opponents even said gg at the end. Are you misinterpreting a couple crouches as BM instead of excitement that they actually pulled off the thing they're build was intended for?
These sound like good games to me. Good sports in the end game, you won, and some actual back and forth chases. You even overcame "the busted addon". So, if not a syringe nerf, then what, exactly "needs attention" here?
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Well here it is, folks. The last usable iri item or add-on being targeted.
Brought to you by the same group who (successfully) got an iri killer add-on made base kit, btw.
Survivors are just not allowed to have anything functional in 2025 DbD apparently. Even if the counter to that item is checks notes injure the survivor in a shoebox sized map full of dead zones. Oh, and the add-on only works once and tells the killer that it's been used.
I can't anymore.
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@theonryo123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894504#Comment_3894504
Then maybe they should make sadako more of a chase killer instead of hit and run bs
Why though?
Maps are the weakest they've ever been. Bloodlust is the strongest it's ever been. If shack is a place you struggle with, try watching some looping videos, mind game, or shoot if you can't get it, just drop a chase if they go to shack.
Sounds like you want to play onryo for the theme (or maybe just the skin), but really want to play another character for the gameplay and kit.
I also have to ask, do you play any other killers? Your pfp and username are Onryo themed, so I'm guessing you'd have similar problems on anyone else as well.
Personally I don't understand why it feels like some people just want every killer to be a blight skin or something.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893943#Comment_3893943
When comparing streaks like this, it's important to remember that it's also just easier to schedule playing killer alone vs getting 3 other ppl together. Its very likely the ppl doing the killer streaks were also just playing more games in general than the ppl trying to get the same 4 man team together. Anyone who's ever tried to schedule a game of dungeons and dragons knows the struggle of getting a party to show up, lol.
Maybe if you try to look at this is a vacuum, but when you look at the whole the bigger picture is pretty obvious.
Killers have much larger win streaks is one piece. The devs have been pushing for a 60% kill rate, which is already a bit odd. They've flat out said they want the game to favor the killer.
Balancing more toward killer vs SWF, when 4 man SWF is only about 10% of the player base, and 40 ish percent when you factor in all group sizes. Solo queue, the 60% is left in the dust with a few scraps that "are supposed to make up for it".
Sacrificing the fun aspects of the game supposedly in the name of balance, is a competitive mindset. And I've never seen a game deliberately and intentionally go a competitive route, while at the same time saying "killers win about 51% of the time, and survivors win about 35% of the time, with the rest being draws". That's not balance.
All of those things, and more, is the broader picture that the game favors killers, by design, and by intention.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I dont think it is worth running anymore. It is fine, but there are better Perks to run, personally I prefer Hope over Adrenaline, if I want to play with 3 Perks for the biggest part of the game, I would rather have a Perk which gives me constant value. Adrenaline just does not fit with that. Even before the Nerfs you could get 0 value out of Adrenaline, even when reaching the Endgame, because often enough I was that guy on a Gen, fully healed and would only get a Speedboost, which was not really significant.
Sure, the situations where you were injured and in chase felt great, but IMO it was so rare. Personally either Adrenaline being active after unhooked or the 5 second Speedboost should be brought back, 3 Nerfs were just too much for a Perk which was considered fine by most people to begin with.
This.
Adrenaline pre nerf was considered balanced for a long long time, mainly because it provides zero benefit until end game. And now it has the potential of providing zero benefit entirely if the killer... checks notes does basically nothing different. Killer having the survivor on hook is literally their objective.
Something like noed at least gains value by wasting time cleansing even if the hex doesn't trigger at end game, but that one change is the equivalent of noed not exposing survivors who were working on a gen when the gates powered. They did their objective, shouldn't the end game perk do nothing?
(For the record, I think noed is fine as is, but this is an example of why adrenaline was over nerfed)
The speed nerf is whatever, but there shouldn't be a perk that can get zero value when the opponent literally has to do nothing different to counter it. That's ridiculous imo.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885361#Comment_3885361
Likely a nurse or blight. Those two sre just broken. Killers as a whole arent getting wins like that. Nurse and blight definitely needs to be taken down a notch. That being said, I've seen survivor teams do 500+ wins, so it goes ways.
Iirc, the current world record escape streak for a 4 man is by a comp level team and made it about 240 games. Solo queue is double digits, like 40ish.
But clown is over 800. Blight was almost 2000.
Your "500 streak" players should submit their evidence for the wr title.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888888#Comment_3888888
why wouldn't they go for the person who's unhooked? it's a guy missing a health state and a hook state. you'd be an idiot not to go for it why can survivors rush their objective and not killers?
why wouldn't they go for the person who's unhooked?
This question alone means that every current anti tunnel perk, mechanic, and measure is completely worthless, and it's good that the devs are looking at other options in phase 2.
why can survivors rush their objective and not killers?
Because survivor gameplay is in response to the killer, and you've already answered your own question. If the killer is only focusing on giving one survivor something to do (chase, hooked, repeat), then one survivor is unhooking briefly, and two are doing whatever they want (gens).
If the killer was actually chasing someone off of a gen instead of tunneling in your scenario, then say most once person can be on gens. That's slowdown.
Instead, what we have are people who relentlessly tunnel one person every game and scream for more regression whenever that doesn't work.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893675#Comment_3893675
I'm not sure what you mean here but here's an example to make sure we're talking about the same thing: say a killer gets 3K and the last survivor always escapes with hatch, they would have 75% killrate, and 100% winrate. So the hatch is actually lowering the killrates in that sense. If the devs were to use "winrate" as a metric in reality it would be even higher than 60%.
(Note this is assuming the community definition win = 3K/4K draw=2K loss=1K/0K which I don't think is a very good balancing metric but it's not me who keep bringing "winrate" into these threads)
Yeah I agree with that.
I think I was referring to this line:
Because a hatch is a win for killer, even though it's 0 kill.
Maybe you meant a win for survivor, since it does count as an escape for kill rates. It counts as a draw for MMR purposes only.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893445#Comment_3893445
The devs balance the game around a 60% kill rate, which, when factoring in hatch, amounts to around a 50% win rate for killers.
Wrong and Wrong.
Killers win 50%, but survivors win only 37%, so this is imbalanced (the rest is draws). Presenting this as "50% winrate for killer" without presenting 35% for survivors is pure manipulation and you know it because I've already quoted you several times.
Second, hatch escapes increase the winrate, not the other way around. Because a hatch is a win for killer, even though it's 0 kill.
Minor correction, the hatch does count as an escape as far as kill metrics.
The only time hatch is treated differently is that hatch is considered a draw for calculating MMR. But hatch is never considered a win for the killer.
Everything else though is completely true. I've never seen a PVP game push so hard for "balance" where one team wins nearly twice as much as their opponents. I get that it's asymmetrical, but since they're going for more "competitive balance" not "casual fun", having 50+% wins vs 35% wins and 15% draws is an insane spread.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893565#Comment_3893565
To extend an olive branch, I do understand there are annoying things in the game, and I do support those issues being fixed. These underlying issues do need to be addressed…
However, there is also this childish and entitled element of the community where people just rsge quit and ruin games through zero provacation. I've seen players try to SoH on my 3rd chase, after looping me at 2 tiles, 3 gens left, when I've moonwalk m1 swinged at a tile with Pig... a genuine mind game, perfectly fair m1 hit, and as honest as DBD gameplay can be... you can even see videos all over the plave of people fumbling a pallet save or screwing each other up with a duo flashlight save, and they just quit.
What "underlying cause" can possibly be addressed here? Quitting like this is itself an underlying cause of frustration in the playerbase. What kind of carrots can you dangle to fix this scenario? Cause the only way other than punishing players who quit for these scenatios is nerf killers to the point of being NPCs.
I've maintained for a while now that you don't need harsh punishments, all you need is to make leaving more annoying than playing the game out.
If the player wants to run to the Killer and get themselves killed, the killer is the one who grants them the ability to leave. It polices itself, because the killer can decide to ignore them, or slug them, or whatever. It becomes more annoying to try and leave than it does to just play the game.
Quitting like this is itself an underlying cause of frustration in the playerbase.
This i fully agree with. However, aren't those frustrations with the state of the game? Generally speaking they're going to be balance concerns also.
Maps being filled with dead zones, not just unsafe but useless pallets, smaller maps, constant base kit killer buffs, reworked tile logic, perk nerfs, item nerfs. All in pursuit of an arbitrary 60% kill rate. People do not want to hear this but that's simply too high for the games health. That's what this "go next epidemic" is really indicating, without using as many words.
How is it not frustrating to spawn into something like Coldwind, a literal empty field of dead zones with nothing to work with, and not feel like the deck is being stacked against you? That's by intention and by design, and they've told us that. But trying to address that problem gets met with insane resistance here: anything that isn't a pure killer buff or survivor nerf is clamored against incessantly.
It's been 10 years, and just now they're talking about anti tunneling and anti slugging. Which, if anti face camping is any indication, means there will be a base kit way for killers to turn these off completely.
I've maintained for a while now that you don't need harsh punishments, all you need is to make leaving more annoying than playing the game out.
This is exactly the point though... Have you asked why the game is, as you put it, "annoying to play out"?
I fully admit that petty people exist, always have. But people aren't getting more petty, they're getting more frustrated with the game. We didn't have these issues, even during the gen kick meta, not to this degree. It's a game health issue. 100%, and the devs are pushing the limits currently in a bad way.
I'm personally disappointed that phase 2 is going to be late this year, because imo the unchecked excessive tunneling, camping, and slugging is a huge factor here too. But they're trying it your way: anti go next is in phase 1, then they'll maybe look at the root causes 6 months later.
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So, I understand that, in theory, a perk that provides a team wide benefit and can't be undone once the spell is cast is potentially difficult to balance.
However.
The "benefit"of something like treacherous crows is so absolutely minuscule and is burdened with so many downsides that it's an easy choice to never use it.
Even weaving spiders, affecting gens being maybe one of the most powerful things they could do, is useless in their current state. Mathematically, you're better off just doing a gen instead of even trying to use this perk. That's not good.
They need a rework, or simply abandon the concept entirely and never look back. At this point, I'm hoping it's the second one.
I can't state enough how bad these perks are. The killer equivalent would be something like "Curse: Insatiable Hooks" After standing at an exit gate for 30 seconds to "cast" the spell, all hook states now only take 60 seconds each instead of 70. Once cast, every blade wipe animation takes 5 seconds and every m2 cooldown is doubled for the remainder of the trial. People would burn the forums down if they even considered something like that.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893129#Comment_3893129
I'm not going to refute your points because I don't disagree with anything you said, because you're making an actual strawman argument. I wrote that post off the cuff because the main thing I was trying to say is that dropping and picking up your item repeatedly wards off AFK crows, which is the main thing survivors could do to abuse the new 10 minute surrender thing.
But you're arguing against the specific wording I used instead of the spirit of what I was saying, which is that only meaningful actions to advance the game should ward off AFK crows.
Do you seriously think I was trying to argue that survivors should get AFK crows for healing or being on the hook? I'm not insane.
I can only go by what you wrote, and there are certainly people who would hold to exactly that definition.
It didn't help you though, that you've said twice now that's not what you meant, but despite me asking several times for clarification, you haven't given any further indication of what you mean.
I even narrowed it down to one specific example for you to give any context for, and you continue to just ignore conversation or discussion and just be defensive.
If you don't actually have any further clarification, then I'm done here. But, for the record, the absurd viewpoint that you wrote verbatim is the only thing anyone has to go by. If that's not correct, you've declined any of my attempts to get more nuance out if it. That's not my fault.
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@LordGlint said:
This is why I can't really agree when ppl insist BHVR should fix the stuff that causes survivors to "go next" instead of punishing the survivors with a penalty. Alot of times the only cause was they got found first and lost a chase. I made a similar post last week when my first 2 games with Pig had ppl doing this after 1 hook.
Alot of times the only cause was they got found first
I mean, we agree on this part, although you seem to think it's pettiness the way you describe it.
Imo, the phase 2 issues of camping, tunneling, and slugging are the core problem here. It's not simply that "the survivor got found first", it's that "the most popular and meta ways that killers play the game mean that the first survivor to be found doesn't get to actually play a well rounded game".
Everything for survivors encourages will rounded gameplay. You should do gens, assist with recovery (unhooks, heals, mends), interact with the killers power, be chased, and get hooked. You can also opt to interact with the killer, killers perks (hexes, counter play), challenges, altruism, chests, and more.
But for reasons that's are entirely within the killers control, all of that will rounded gameplay becomes "get chased, hooked, and back to the lobby" for about 5k BP that you had basically no choice in. You got unlucky, found first, and don't really get to play that match. Good luck next game. Every game some nights.
I'm personally hopeful that phase 2 actually addresses some of these core problems, and the symptom that is the "go next epidemic" diminishes as well.
And lost a chase.
Why say this? Not being able to lose a chase might've been true years ago before 6.1.0, but infinites don't exist anymore, maps have been nerfed, tiles and pallets nerfed, tile spawn logic nerfed, and more changes have occurred since then. All of that means that survivors are literally supposed to lose chases by design. Sure, some people may make a mistake and be frustrated, but getting a map with massive dead zones and a single pallet held up by toothpicks can also be frustrating as well as hopeless.
The game only functions if survivor players have any hope that escape is possible. The fact that "go next" has become this much of a problem is a huge game health indicator that something is drastically wrong. Hopefully, phase 2 can address some of that.
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People will just run to the killer or point at a hook, which they can do right now.
They can also, on live, get deep wounded, run to a corner, and just go afk to bleed out for 4 minutes. But people don't.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892913#Comment_3892913
The hiding they need to address isn't the sort of thing aura reading can help you with.
I got held hostage for 40 minutes once in Pale Rose by two survivors who realized they could no longer win the match (both on death hook). They never touched a generator or did anything. They just hid in the outskirts around the edges of the map and woke each other up repeatedly (I was Freddy) in hopes that I would get frustrated and DC.
I did absolutely nothing to "deserve" this. I didn't camp, slug, tunnel. I was on pre-rework Freddy so I wasn't playing an OP killer. Surge was my only regression perk.
This situation has only happened to me 2 times in my almost 4000 hours, but still.
Scott Jund has a video displaying this kind of behavior called "The Pettiest Game I've Ever Played" where the entire survivor squad spawned in only trying to hide and not progress the game state.
I'm not condoning, or saying this is something that anyone should ever do. In fact, it's against game rules to do this so excessively, so please report people. If it's truly this rare, then taking screenshot and reporting through proper channels is exactly what that system is for.
That said, finding survivors is a fundamental skill for the killer.
Regarding your video: A) posted in August 24 before the distortion nerf (which, again, was to target this exact kind of scenario) B) Scott's build has no information in it, and the game ended in a 4k. So this is a pretty big indicator for me that I'm right: if you have the game sense and skill to locate survivors this isn't an issue. You even admit this is not common, it's not meta.
Pulling a "forum killer main" move: there are also tons of perks that help with this. Auras are just one part of information. Iron maiden, weave attunement, whispers, and spies are all information that solve these issues.
And I can't stress this enough, these perks are optional. But the biggest complaints I see on here about "killers who can't find survivors" are people who also run quad slowdown and then seem shocked that survivors aren't standing in the open. People who have tried nothing and are out of ideas.
Anti hiding is already on the list. On top of the surrender option they're putting in next. So the devs are working on something to help, even after the distortion nerf. So until we see what that is, I'm not sure why people seem to be expecting still more on top of all that.
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@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893011#Comment_3893011
I'm sorry, I forgot I'm on the internet and people will take the most bad faith interpretation humanly possible to a general statement you made.
"Aha, you said that the survivor should need to make meaningful progress towards the game state instead of sitting in a corner and dropping their item repeatedly in order to get rid of crows. Clearly this means you think that survivors should accumulate crows for being on the hook or healing."
It's not bad faith, it's taking exactly what you wrote. You deliberately said "gen progress", not "advancing the game". So all of those points would have to be special exceptions in this system, at least as you described it.
I even said at the bottom, you could ignore all of that and it's still a bad idea.
If you genuinely want a discussion (which I'm not sure you do, since you simply dismissed everything, and didn't try to rebut a single point) then please explain how this should work around the "slug for the 4k" problem. And to be clear, that's 4 minutes waiting for your teammate to bleed out, a minute or so of hatch searching, and 2 minutes of EGC that is legitimate hiding, in the killers control, but would identify the survivor unfairly with something like what you described.
So tell me, since nothing you've said explains this, how does your system of "didn't complete a gen recently" deal with this situation fairly for the survivor? Because it sounds like the survivors position gets revealed either way and killer gets a 4k every time.
Hiding is genuinely legitimate gameplay, situationally. Similar to camping, tunneling, and slugging, it's perfectly fine in limited doses, but it's the excessive use of any of those, including hiding, that becomes a problem.