AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893024#Comment_3893024
If a majority of the playerbase load into a match and see a certain killer and the response is to groan, then I would argue that killer needs looking at.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893045#Comment_3893045
Similarly, low pick rate (either choosing to play as or choosing to face) should be an indicator of an issue. A handful of people whining isn’t very helpful, but if a majority of people chose to remove a killer and a good number have feedback why then that could also be useful.
Similarly, low pick rate (either choosing to play as or choosing to face) should be an indicator of an issue. A handful of people whining isn’t very helpful, but if a majority of people chose to remove a killer and a good number have feedback why then that could also be useful.
True, it could be.
But there are a lot of factors that play into that as well. Killers with "mobility" are generally more popular than "M1" killers, although popularity doesn't always mean "weak".
Twins, for example, has a very high percentage of games resulting in a 4k (41.4%), as well as a high kill rate (61% according to nightlight), but also the second lowest pick rate. That doesn't necessarily mean they need buffs, if people generally would rather zoom around the map on wesker instead of pouncing as Victor.
Some killers will have a lower skill floor or higher skill ceiling, and I think that's ok (even healthy). It's possible there could be some quality of life changes that could make a difference, but at least on this forum people seem to confuse "quality of life" and "balance changes" very often.
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I could maybe see an argument for each player being able to ban a map, with the map pool expanding over time and only 5 maps banned per match.
But not killer bans. Ideally the devs should be fixing issues, and they would be intentionally getting less data from those games.
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@Zakon05 said:
They just needed to change the AFK crow logic so that only working on a generator resets the timer. At the moment you can just pick up/put down an item to reset the timer.
Actually, they might be doing just that. I think this change might be targeted at hackers. At the moment, hackers can hold killers hostage and force them to DC by making themselves unhookable.
I don't know if it will be enough, the hackers could just complete 1 generator every 10 minutes and still hold the killer hostage for 50 minutes.
They just needed to change the AFK crow logic so that only working on a generator resets the timer.
To put it politely, you haven't considered any of the ramifications of this.
Here are some scenarios that would cause the AFK crows to trigger, many of which are outside the survivor's control entirely:
- Being in chase.
- Being on hook.
- Being slugged.
- Recovering in any way (healing, unhooking, mending…)
- Interacting with the killer's power.
- Hiding while the killer slugs for the 4k (at least 4 minutes while your 3rd teammate bleeds out).
- Completing a tome challenge.
- Reaching end game.
- Many, many others (flashlight saves, blessing/cleansing totems, being held hostage in the corner by the killer, etc.)
Basically, this just notifies the killer if a survivor exists.
Let's say we ignore all of that, and just take your suggestion at face value. In that case, what's the only thing that matters in every match? Gen rushing. Gen rush every game or literally be penalized for it.
Distilling it down as much as this is absolutely absurd.
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@Man_of_triangles said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892913#Comment_3892913
Killers can find survivors because survivors tend to be around generators or hooked survivors and can only move so far before the killer gets to them without running, which leaves scratch marks and leads the killer to them. Killers can't find anyone if they are just hiding in obscure corners of the map, moving just enough to avoid triggering crows.
If you truly believe that finding survivors who are out in the open is the pinnacle of the hunting skill, then I can't help you (and the devs aren't going to be capable of giving enough hand holding either).
Again, there are perks that can assist with location, including auras, screams, killer instinct, and more, even if you're struggling. Part of the "game sense" mechanic is knowing where survivors were, and where they are likely to be given where you've been.
If it's getting to the 10 minute mark and you're still guarding gens instead of opening lockers, that's not the games fault. Nor are survivors required to give themselves up.
I can't emphasize this enough, distortion was nerfed for exactly this scenario. And if you're struggling with this scenario often, iron maiden is basically a hard counter also.
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@theonryo123 said:
They really do need to do something to with anti hiding
They deleted distortion, for exactly this problem, and have given killers 8346572 aura reading perks, abilities, and add-ons.
While I know that "anti hiding" is planned already, I genuinely feel that "finding survivors" is a fundamental killer skill. You can genuinely find people without aura reads at all, if you use game sense and are even vaguely aware of your surroundings.
A huge portion of these "I can't find survivors who are hiding from me" result in "oh, apparently they were in the basement and I didn't think to check there for some reason".
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
Personally I wish BHVR would take the old WGLF and the old BBQ and Chili effects and then put them in the basekit.
Each fresh hook a killer gets gives them a 25% stackable BP bonus after the match.
Each safe unhook a survivor gets gives them a 25% stackable BP bonus after the match.
Or hell even if we didn't want to bring back people fighting for altruism like how it was with old WGLF they could instead tie to generators. Each gen that the survivor team completes gives the entire team a 20% stackable BP bonus.
It would make the grind easier for both sides while imo promoting gameplay. Killers will likely want to spread out hooks more because they want the extra bloodpoints. Survivors will want to save more or with the gen system might want to stay in a match for longer so they can get more bloodpoints from that match.
I'd feel less bad about getting 4 man outed with like 6 hooks as a killer if I got 60k~ or 40k~from that match. I'd feel less bad about a rough match as a survivor if we got 3 gens done and got an extra 60% BP.Personally I wish BHVR would take the old WGLF and the old BBQ and Chili effects and then put them in the basekit.
Yes, 100%. Been saying this since they announced 6.1 was removing these bonuses.
I get that they "didn't want BP gains tied to perks", but base kit doesn't have that problem. And the BBQ incentive for hooks could just get it's own separate UI element to indicate progress.
I also see this as a change that no one should complain about. This doesn't affect balance in any way to put this into the game.
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I really feel like there's some context missing here. Like, maybe a video of some gameplay?
If survivors are "quickly grouping up to heal" are they just staying near each other? Sounds like a good place to commit to applying pressure.
The entire point of hit and run is to force survivors to choose between being healthy and spending time healing instead of on gens, vs staying injured on gens and being instadowned of the killer sneaks up on them. You're describing a situation where neither of those are happening.
How long are you taking to find survivors? The concept that "survivors are grouping up to heal each other" and "gen rushing" don't go together at all, unless the killer is wandering the map aimlessly and struggling to find someone consistently, regularly, and for like 20-30+ seconds each time.
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@PleaseRewind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889936#Comment_3889936
It wasn't just killer mains. I had that concern. I was worried that people would use it to extend my time on the hook and then go about their business. If people would actually do this is another matter but at the time it was a concern of mine.
I was worried that people would use it to extend my time on the hook and then go about their business.
People can still currently do this. The only scenario that actually was impacted with the reassurance change was having 2 or more survivors working with the killer to keep someone on hook infinitely.
Basically what you're wanting is some agency in the hook to not be held there for no reason. Which is why I've been saying that "press e to cancel reassurance" fixes every concern, even with the ptb version of the perk.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891890#Comment_3891890
Unfortunately, ppl don't really play like that. Killers never see survivors go easy on them when they're having a rough match, so they arnt likely to return the favor. It's actually typically the other way around... Alot of survivor teams if they see there's an unexperienced killer will drag a game out and make it as unbearable as possible with flashlights and bodyblocking. Killers gotta just bare with it or eat a DC penalty since they can't call it quits until the survivors finish the last gen.
I mean, you can't say no one.
I've definitely given up an escape to killers who had a rough game, and will usually offer my item if I have one.
I remember a game where Myers carried me to the open gate and I crawled back in to give him the mori he brought. We both gg'd at the end, and I consider both of us to have been good sports about the match.
I may be the minority, but I generally don't care if I escape or not, if the match was fun and played fairly.
I basically have no issues with matching the energy of the other team of the same match, but a lot of people seem to either A) sweat like crazy and then complain that the other team is also playing competitively, or B) get demolished and then take that out on the next match.
And, at least for killers, it baffles me that people don't seem to have the game sense to realize they're up against an uncoordinated team / solo q. I guess if all you care about is winning, then take your easy W, but MMR will just give you sweatier games too.
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As a lethal enjoyer myself, just no.
Someone has already made the game a basically free win by being 3v1 at the start, and if I go after anyone else in the match it's basically just salt in the wound.
I might as well actively punish the person for being afk, instead of further punishing their team. And I'm basically still guaranteed to win.
I had this happen when I ran a backpack build a while back, though. That was super fun (for me) with a nearly permanent backpack.
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The only changes that the devs implemented anywhere close to the timing that excessive slugging started picking up traction were
- Added extra 10 seconds to hook timers.
- WGLF got extra slug healing speed removed.
All of the regression changes were at least 6 months earlier.
So, to me, the real reason is that people understood that camping hooks, and lurking near the hook with intent to tunnel, were actually getting nerfed with the +10 seconds change. And instead of understanding how to play without using those tactics every hook, in every match, people switched to slugging instead.
I don't think WGLF change has anything to do with it, except possibly to remind people on accident that slugging is powerful. Pretty sure this swap coincided with some content creator using these talking points too.
So instead of using their time to pressure survivors off gens, they went the next easy route to slug excessively.
Any talk about regression is just an excuse. People have been screaming to get gen kick meta levels of regression back, since that was the pve meta. Anyone could bind every key to "damage generator", slam their face on the keyboard for an hour, and win matches by both attrition and by default. People desperately want that back again, and will use any excuse to bring it up.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890247#Comment_3890247
i understand that concept of forcing chase as the unhooked player due to having DS to get value out of it for your teammate as a way of aggressive usage of your anti-tunneling perk is hard to grasp for a casual player, but there is always time to learn something new yk instead of acting like there is no value in DS just because you never heard of the term forcing a grab when you know you are about to get downed during a chase :)
I simply cannot wrap my head around this idea that you wouldn't know the user has DS and identify that this is what's going on.
Do you not remember the survivor who just got off the hook? Are you so excited for an "easy down" that you forget there might be a reason they want you to go after them?
The last time I got hit by DS was about 3 years ago, before 6.1 when DS was much more powerful. And it was a conscious decision on my part because the survivor was so aggressive it was obvious he had the perk and clear that he felt he was invincible because of it. So I played into it intentionally to turn off the perk, and stop him being annoying. I didn't give him the attention he desperately wanted (I continued my intended chase) and he didn't bother me the rest of the match.
Every time since then, I just leave people on the ground to rethink their life decisions. This, btw, is one of those "valid, situational slugging" scenarios that I talk about.
The idea that you would switch targets in this situation and let the survivor lead you to a locker is just you playing into an obvious trap. The survivors don't choose who the killer chases. Last I checked they didn't carry lockers around with them either.
You even know it's a trap, at least on paper. So the only reason this would ever work is if you couldn't identify the situation in game, which is the definition of game sense.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Its bad. It could have been good, but suddenly Killer Mains were worried about Survivors being held hostage on the Hook. But the Devs could have just put an option for the hooked Survivor to avoid being affected by Reassurance and then it would have been a solution, but the Perk would have had some use.
Currently it is just an Anti-Camping Perk which is bad at Anti-Camping. 99% of the time I see it being used right before the Unhook so that the Survivors running it can at least press a button to know that they equipped the Perk. It cannot even be used above the Basement.
This exactly.
Even with all of the outcry over "hostage situations", they only needed to add "press e to cancel reassurance".
But since then, they've added AFC, 10 seconds to hook timers, and have planned even more anti camping measures. I'm still sad we couldn't have had the better version of reassurance, and maybe then this other stuff wouldn't have been necessary.
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@Firellius said:
OTR is much more consistent, DS is far better designed.
Using DS offensively is harshly punished since the killer can just slug you out. OTR is easier to use offensively but can be disabled if the killer tunnels hard enough, making it worse for both sides.
IMO, OTR should be reworked to be a complete info black-out perk. No killer instinct, no aura, no breathing noises, no footsteps, no loud noises, no blood pools, no scratch marks. Everything short of making the survivor invisible. You want to tunnel? You better hope you can track real well, or else you might end up losing the tunnel target and wasting every second of that chase.
Alternately, they could just make OTR prevent the gigantic "you just got unhooked, hey killer they're over here, don't forget to tunnel" base kit notification and OTR would probably be fine with just the aura blocking and silence it has now.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889347#Comment_3889347
To be fair with the coms of swf, the whole team knows when the killer is heading for them on a gen long before TR kicks in. This gives survivors ample time to move from the gen to avoid being seen and chased. They move to another gen instead or remain close if they know killer has no aura reading perks.
Many times swf teams have been able to avoid being seen due to coms telling them killer is coming before the game tells them via TR so it's not always a case of "go chase the players" because swf with coms is like the team having full aura reading on the killer location constantly so they hide very effectively. Can't chase what you can't find.
A) you aren't facing a full 4 man with comms every match.
B) if the survivors are pre running at the slightest sound of terror radius, then they are certainly not gen rushing, and spending their time running away they're actively giving up gen progress. Just because a gen is making noise doesn't mean you have to kick it.
C) if you're asking for the regression limit to be removed, you certainly have room in your build for information perks. Finding survivors is literally a killer fundamental skill, so if the scratch marks aren't enough you can use one of the approximately 20 or so aura perks or even add-ons. They even nerfed distortion for exactly this scenario to help you.
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@theonryo123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889331#Comment_3889331
Gens are part of the killers objectives. The killer has multiple objectives hooks. Stopping Gens
If you're hitting the regression limit and asking for it to be removed, you are focusing way to hard on gens. Go chase the players.
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Gens. Are. Not. The. Killers. Objective.
Survivors are.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889014#Comment_3889014
Look, I'm not trying to sound insulting, but I'd just suggest you'd read how PR works before discussing further. You're going off a misunderstanding of how PR works. Letting go of the gen just before they get hooked doesn't counter the perk at all, it still loses its progress. All Letting go does is avoid a particular perk combo which locks the gen, but that's an entirely different topic.
You're correct you don't need a comp level team. You're reinforcing what I'm saying here. I'm saying that's simply how to counter PR. Anyone can do it, you just need enough experience to know what the counter is and how to use it. Many people cry foul saying PR is overpowered. Thats just a lack of experience. I'm just saying what the counter is so people learn more and have improved survivor matches. PR isn't a big deal and it's easy to invalidate it. DBD has a LOOOOOT of stuff to learn - it isn't newcomers friendly due to so many variables being in the game. You got core mechanics, tons of perks, tons of killers each with their own counter - even people with 10,000+ hours still learn new stuff. The entire game is about getting more experienced and learning how to effectively counter your opponent. Every single one of us needs more experience, and as we gain that experience, we become better players. I'm not saying you're a newbie, for example. I'm sure you've played a while. I'm just saying after more experience, you'll come to realize PR does have a hard counter and utilizing it will trivialize its presence in the match. Learning new things is a good thing. Heck, I'm 2,000 hours in and I STILL learn things. Thats part of the process, not an insult.
The video could be 5 years old or 5 days old - doesn't matter. The point of the video is experienced players don't just hold m1 on a gen. I'm just showing that even to the most experienced players, adapting to the match is the key to success. PR is something to adapt to. If you do, you trivialize it. You're accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about, so I'm just pointing you to a video that even the most experienced players in the game have to adapt to what comes at them. As fornyou bringing up BNP and sabotage, now you're just going way off topic trying to change the subject.
As for your '"people don't want to learn to counter" apply to everyone" question, I'm having a hard time believing you're genuinely asking this question, but I'll humor you. Naturally it doesn't apply to people actually adapting and countering. I'm referring to people who just want to hold m1 on gens and get upset when something easily countered prevents them from continuing from just holding m1 all match.
It's not a difficult concept: succeeding in DBD and becoming a better player is all about gaining experience and utilizing that experience to counter and overcome challenges that impede your progress. The fact that you refute this, well, I don't know what to say other than what I said previously...just keep playing and once you get more experience, you'll start understanding that counters exist and utilizing them will be a springboard towards more successful matches.
You can see there's an issue of people not wanting to adept with downvotes over the statement that the game requires people to learn and adapt to challenges. A lot of people don't want that (as you can clearly see from the votes). They just want a streamlined path of success. In DBD, it's just not going to cut it regardless of how much they want to downvote the idea of overcoming challenges. We have literally had people post that killers are OP because survivors can't outrun the killer. Is that the case? Of course not - they just need more experience to start learning how looping works, the difference between slow/medium/fast vaults, and so on. With PR (or any perk for that matter), it's no different. There are counters, and it all comes down to learning how to deal with them. Occasionally we will have a problematic perk that definitely needs rebalanced, but PR is one of those basic learning experiences to put under your belt. Bam, now you're even better equipped to be a rockstar survivor completely invalidating PR for your team. Thats strength! The alternative is just bashing your head on that vital gens in the center that is constantly getting blown to pieces by PR then being stressed out over it declaring the perk is broken. Thats just not realistic.
Edit- typo fixin'
Look, I'm not trying to sound insulting
Yeah, I kinda think you are, but here's my final thoughts on this matter:
Regarding Pain Res: both of us are saying that the perk is going to take it's chunk of the generator, no matter what you do. I'm saying you should go about your business, stop the gen regressing immediately, and as a by-product you also have a gen that gets hit by a guaranteed less than 20% because you're still working on it. Your argument is that, somehow, going out of your way to expend effort on a 6th gen in a corner, which is going to get hit by the maximum 20% chunk, and then regress further because you're doing something else is somehow the better option? You either honestly believe this and are refusing to admit you could be wrong, or you're lying and pulling a "hello, fellow survivor mains".
Here's what I'm talking about with this question:
Does your 'people just don't want to learn to counter' apply to everyone?"
When I say that I'm considering meta shifts and how people had to change their play styles. When Dead Hard got nerfed, sure, some people wanted DH for distance back, and people had to adjust, but after a bit of learning period (month or two), people either kept using the perk in a different way, or switched to something else. That's adapting. The same thing happened with DS in 6.1, Circle of Healing and medkit nerf completely shifted the entire game's meta, and arguably MfT's nerf did also (although people just basically went back to exhaustion). Largely, people adapted, and I'd say the people who haven't, and are still clamoring occasionally for those nerfs to be reverted, are a very small minority. Everyone else has adapted and moved on.
Now, here's the real reason I asked that question: Killer players also have difficulty adapting and refuse to change. You seem incapable of even considering that possibility, and every example you've come up with is (unsurprisingly) survivors. Consider regression, then. Ever since CoBruption and gen kick meta, killers are (nearly every day) screaming for regression buffs. Does that not sound remarkably like the "refusal to adapt" that you were talking about? Why is it that you seem to think this only applies to survivors?
I can only guess, and can't actually read minds, but I'd say that your inability to change your PR stance (see what I did there?), on top of your inability to self-reflect that killers might also suffer from this problem occasionally too, is almost entirely the reason you're getting downvoted. I'm not perfect, but you've said basically nothing that would change my mind here. And it appears that I'm not alone in that either.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889121#Comment_3889121
Being able to delay the 1st kill, from 3 hooks to 6 hooks, is huge value.
- Survivor A has 1 hook state
- Survivor B uses STB on Survivor A
- The killer hooks Survivor B.
- Survivor A now has 0 hook states, and Survivor B now has 2 hook states.
- Survivor A uses STB on Survivor B.
- Survivor A and Survivor B now each have 1 hook state.
And the reason why Survivor B used STB on Survivor A, is in case the killer wanted to tunnel Survivor A, because this gives more margin of error than waiting for survivor A to have 2 hook states.
So the killer hooks two survivors, and the end result is that two survivors each have one hook state.
Sounds like if the survivors are also wasting two perk slots to literally not change the end result, and are making themselves exposed for the killer, that sounds like a pretty big win for the killer tbh.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889014#Comment_3889014
Are you really arguing killer players get handheld more than survivors? That's quite a take there
How on earth do you get that from "Does your 'people just don't want to learn to counter' apply to everyone?"
I won't deny that players on both sides have a problem of not adapting at times. But this whole conversation started by someone saying to 99 a 6th gen to avoid pain res. That's just plain not it, completely unrealistic take.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888692#Comment_3888692
No worries, you'll figure it out eventually with more experience. Great way to essentially force the killer into having one less viable perk in the match.
One of the problems we have at the moment are players who go up against a particular playstyle and refuse to adapt to counter it - expecting to play how they always play every time to always work for them then cry foul when throwing themselves at a wall didn't work. That goes for both sides. Survivors playing a particular way - the killer needs to adjust accordingly. Killer playing a certsin way, the survivors need to adjust accordingly. If PR is being run, and survivors keep throwing themselves at a center gen while its constantly getting nuked to 0% are likely going to fail. That doesn't mean PR is OP, that means the survivors did not bother to counter it. A problematic hex totem? Dont pretend it doesn't exist, find it and destroy it. Ghostface in the match? Dont just keep your heads down and staring at the gen - keep a keen eye out and have one survivor dedicated to keeping tabs on him and revealing him. The matches success is always about adaptability. You're welcome to watch tournaments of some of the best players - they all play VERY differently depending who the killer is and what he's running. While the below isn't a tournament, it showcases how a professional team faced off against a ghostie.
https://youtu.be/5LJ_lC7-VJM?si=RyjDP9xkL46YBYZq
You'll notice immediately that they don't play their normal routine, they specifically changed their gameplay to counter the ghostie. Playing vs PR is no different. Adapt or face a rough match. The fact that such a statement is downvoted just shows how much players really don't want to make the effort to counter anything. I can promise yall that starting to actually put effort into your matches and adapting to what challenges come will make for a much more positive experience for you. Just try it. Instead of just holding m1 on a gen the entire match expecting success, consider what is going on around you and how you can counter it. Survivors have all the tools in the world to overcome the killer. That's the challenge - that's the fun. It's a far more dynamic experience.
Bear in mind, the game is balanced around SWF, so if you solo queue, it will be a lot more challenging. You'll essentially need to bring your A game and be able to hold your own. You'll want to learn how to efficiently loop. You never know how experience your teammates are, so you'll probably need to do the countering all by yourself. If you see no one is countering, then you'll need to. If they are countering, then you have room to do gens and such. What's rough is when you're countering but others don't realize you are and can ruin it. Thats a problem with solo queue - it's innately weaker than swf. Sadly, the game just isnt balanced around solo queue, so it'll be harder to succeed. Communication with teammates is key, so hopefully we have some sort of way to do so in the future. Solo queue needs some love.
So, I never said or implied that PR was impossible to counter. In fact, the counter is nearly trivially easy, because you just let go as the killer hooks and then get back on the gen after it explodes. That also counters DMS.
You don't need a literal comp level team with coordination to do so, and I stand by the facts that I gave that 99 ing a gen as a "counter" is just the worst play in basically every scenario.
But the fact that you have to go back to a video from November 2022 says a lot. They knew the killer up front. They knew the map up front. They had an entire slew of perks that have since been nerfed. Dead hard, prove, distortion to name a few. Most of the tiles, tile logic, and pallets on those maps have also since been nerfed. You gonna go back to 2016 and claim that insta completing gens with BNP or perma sabo is still a viable strat?
Does your "people just don't want to learn to counter" apply to everyone? Prove got nerfed because people didn't want to learn to pressure more than one survivor. Distortion got nerfed because people can't use game sense, context, scratch marks, and every other cue to find survivors. Maps and pallets got nerfed because people can't learn to use bloodlust correctly, loop tiles properly, or zone survivors.
I'm not sure where you got on this tangent, but this doesn't have anything to do with pain res anymore.
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I personally don't see enough value in the perk. Aside from the people who completely misunderstand how it works and think "it removes a hook stage" entirely from the game, it's completely overrated. It's, at best, incredibly niche.
Where exactly is the killer during this unhook?
If the killer is near the hook (camping, proxying), then you're just making yourself exposed, trading a hook state for no reason. You shouldn't even activate the perk, although this is likely the most common scenario when the killer is intent on tunneling.
If the killer is far enough away that it's safe to become exposed, what else are they doing? If they're in chase with another survivor, you don't need to use an anti tunnel perk here either.
So the only time this would come into play is if the killer goes far enough away, doesn't get into another chase (I guess kicks a gen?) and comes immediately back to hook to tunnel.
Then the killer has to also not have any idea that the only two perks that cause survivors to scream on unhook also expose the unhooker, and then further misplay into it by going after the injured unhooked survivor (presumably with endurance), instead of the instadown survivor who unhooked.
I just find that scenario to be completely unrealistic.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888524#Comment_3888524
The 99 thing is specifically a counter to PR. It prevents it from ever hitting vital gens that will be battled over. For example, the snow retreat map has a gen in the center. It's a real fight to knock that out since it is patrolled so often and easily. If it's completed, survivor success goes up much higher since it means the remaining gens are further spread out - it's much harder to patrol if gens are far from each other. By having a gen way over in a corner far away, the gen will naturally be less often checked since vital gens are more towards the center. Now no matter what the killer does, he's in a lose lose situation. If he PR hooks, the gen that gets hit is the gen that's far in the corner. This leaves any progress made to center gens maintained. Pushing that middle gen can be difficult, but if that thing gets dumped 25% every pop, it'll be nigh impossible by the time bodies start dropping. If he actually goes over to the 99'd gen, that's precious time the killer has blown with zero pressure on more vital gens - more importantly, that's an uncontested center gen. The most optimal place the survivors would want the killer to be is far away from vital gens. Once all PR tokens are used up, then the fen can be completed. Doing a 25% repair on a low priority gen miles away from the killer patrolis far more viable than trying to do extra 25% per hit repairs rightwhere the killer will be on a regular basis.
As for no PR, 99% a gen usually isn't worth it unless you are trying to avoid a 3 gen, but the moment the killer spots the 99 gen, the gig is up and he'll likely not bother checking that gen anymore, so might as well complete.
Long story short, if PR is hitting, you want it hitting on a low priority gen (usually the gens the killers give up since they arent worth protecting). Survivors have complete control over exactly which gen PR affects.
Since I can't make the point any clearer, best of luck to you in your matches.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888300#Comment_3888300
I mean that's mmr dependant. That's the usual go-to technique in my matches. PR in use? Go to a gen not often patrolled and 99 it. PR becomes a nonthreat. I did premise with the caveat that it's smart survivors who do it. If something is problematic, don't just throw yourself at a wall - counter it.
I mean, we agree that it's apparently MMR dependent, but I mean it in a different context than you implied you do.
Cause to me, that's some "wood tier" level of strategy.
So, if the killer isn't running PR, and you leave a gen 99'd, you're just playing into regression. That gen can be hit by surge, pop, or even a dry kick and you're giving up progress for literally no reason.
Even if they are running the perk, are you planning to finish that 99'd gen?
Because finishing it means that not only are you still having to repair the regression from PR, but you're giving up maximum value. Instead of "at most 20% progress", you're choosing to give up that maximum 20% progress. Not to mention you can simply stop regression if it hits the gen you're working on, as opposed to extra regression value of a 99'd gen in a corner somewhere.
Not finishing the 99'd gen is the worst possible scenario: congratulations, you did 99% extra gen repair to play around a maximum of 80% extra gen repair. Mind blowing value.
TLDR: there's no scenario where 99'ing the gen is better than simply finishing it.
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Killers have:
A teammate.
For a group of people who seem to claim incessantly that "coordination and communication" is the most overpowered, broken, unbalanced thing (supposedly) in the history of the entire game, people sure do forget that fast when the "power role" gets it too. Amazing how fast that excuse evaporates.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885965#Comment_3885965
Smart survivors also simply get a far corner gen 99'd to eat up all PR charges so they never affect any vital gens.
Yeah, sure. And we were told that the anti gen tap would cause people to hold 4 seconds and let go to keep regression going and deny further kicks.
Neither of those things actually happen in regular matches. Survivors aren't sitting on so much gen progress that having one 99'd is a thing. Most games, by a huge margin, are either 3k or 4k where survivors aren't finishing 5 gens, let alone a decoy 6th.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887633#Comment_3887633
Perks like Bamboozle and Fire Up would buff the actual Frenzy Vault speed itself. This got removed with the addition of Wesker for consistency's sake, as they didn't want Wesker's vault being affected by these perks for fear of it being too strong.
It wasn't just wesker's power though that caused this, it was specifically his Superior Anatomy perk that was added.
People were running Superior Anatomy and bamboozle, along with things like fire up and specific add-ons to literally break the game.
I think it was wraith who could get vault speed down to something obscene like 0.3 seconds, and the vault animation literally took longer than the actual vaulting time. For reference, that's like twice as fast as a survivor fast vault and I think people were also getting stuck because of the animation breaking.
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I've said it almost every time I see the "go next" problem discussed, but honestly nothing will matter until they address the actual reason why it's occurring.
Sure, some people are petty, but it's not like people have become more petty - And enough to make it an epidemic. It's a game health issue.
Imo, the main reason "go next" had gotten worse is that for most survivors the game is over in a losing state insanely quickly. Got found first? Looks like you're getting camped and tunneled out for 5k BP and you don't get any challenge progress. Getting slugged at 5 gens? Better tab out so you have something interesting to do for the next 4 minutes. Riveting gameplay.
And if they're already talking about anti camping, anti tunneling, and anti slugging in phase 2, then those measures could be enough to fix this problem.
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@Firellius said:
Hook denial needs stricter limitations, IMO. It's only when picking up a survivor that the killer is -not- the power role, and I think killers should be immune to hook denials after being made to drop twice, until they've gotten another hook.
That's an interesting idea, although I assume you're meaning something like the locker grab lightborn mechanic for blinds.
Considering "wiggle" and pallet saves are both also "hook denial" mechanics, it would be pretty abusable to just backpack a survivor permanently and use up every pallet on the map, as an extreme example.
I'm also not sure how you factor in sabos, since voluntarily dropping the survivor could be "forced", but we probably don't want to go back to survivor dribbling either.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887373#Comment_3887373
So pick your gosh darn teammates up you fool.
Take unbreakable. Take chase perks to help you.
As for when have they ever done that? Oh I dont know, how about the gen kick limit that should have been removed when they gutted SM. How about the removal of hook grabs? Or the anti camp mechanic.
I dont camp, it was somthing I never enjoyed so i just didnt do it. That is a very real example of BHVR swooping in and thanosing an option from existence though. The gen kick limit too. Now, survivors dont get punished for 3 genning themselves which I will add is a survivor mistake.Gen kick limit was the last resort that finally killed off the 3 gen meta, and it was necessary because the nerfs to Eruption, CoB, Overcharge, and even skull merchant weren't enough to prevent people from holding the game hostage for an hour and calling it skill.
Now, survivors dont get punished for 3 genning themselves which I will add is a survivor mistake.
No. Survivors being 3 genned by themselves or the killer isn't an automatic loss of the entire match. Survivors 3 genning themselves is, was, and always has been "punished", as you say, because having the smallest possible playable area is a huge benefit to the killer.
A 3 gen situation is currently (and should have always been) an opportunity for the killer. It's a pretty big advantage to have a tiny area to patrol and find survivors (you know, the killers objective). It should never have gotten to a point where people considered a 3 gen by itself a win condition in the first place.
If you're hitting the gen regression limit right now, then you really need to understand that gens aren't the killers objective, survivors are.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887126#Comment_3887126
Ik that, but he didn't seem to know what the red bar actually meant
You're completely mistaken on this one.
It's not an item penalty, it's a general repair speed penalty that applies whenever more than one survivor is working on the same gen. It slows down the progress so there are diminishing returns to grouping up on gens specifically.
That penalty applies even if the survivors have zero perks, items, or add-ons. It's not an "item penalty" as you put it.
The fact that you don't understand this fundamental mechanic of the game explains an awful lot about your perspective. The fact that you somehow think I'm confused says even more.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886797#Comment_3886797
It stops Killers from bleeding out Survivors for four minutes without rewarding the Survivors for losing a chase or not spreading out to deny the Killer from Slugging all four people (which is the in-game solution to Slugging that doesn’t require a perk).
I never said it’s a fantastic idea, but I don’t think it’s a bad idea either. I’d personally prefer this over lying on the ground for four minutes.Well, slugging has exactly one way to get up base kit, and that's for another survivor to come heal you up. So your point about "spreading out" isn't exactly holding water.
Also
rewarding the Survivors for losing a chase
Is an invented problem, since the entire game is designed around survivors losing chase. This isn't 2018 DbD with infinites, dead hard for distance, and no restrictions on DS (among other things).
This is post 6.1 DbD with nearly every patch adding something base kit to help killers. Smaller maps, dead zones, 10% free action speed, and almost 3 years of any survivor perk or item that helps reliably extend chases being nerfed as well.
You can't even hide anymore, since they're apparently adding "anti-hiding" to the horror hide and seek game.
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What exactly problem is this attempting to solve?
If you're targeting slugging, then this does nothing but validate killers leaving survivors on the ground. Specifically your points #2 and #3 already exist if the killer is not intending to hook at any point in the game, and those are apparently not enough to deter people from excessively slugging at the start of the match.
Killers who intend to slug excessively aren't bringing hook perks, so #2 is completely irrelevant. And bleeding out a survivor already comes with a penalty for emblems and blood points, so #3 already exists.
Basically the only changes here are that survivors get a slightly faster perk upgrade (yet the solution to slugging is still reliant on having a perk equipped), and in return the killers who do this can feel validated that the devs and the survivors should be hooking for them, and the problem only gets worse.
So unless you're targeting some other problem, this is generally not a good idea.
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@Rudjohns said:
I've said it before, my suggestion to address the "hiding" when 1v2 is for the killer to have the option to start the EGC at any time when 2 survivors are left. So much better and it would help´everyone.
So, basically rework it so hatch spawns at 2 survivors instead of one. That enables all of the mechanics you're talking about I believe.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886394#Comment_3886394
This isn’t supposed to be the only anti-slugging change. There’s more in phase 2. This is purely just for those games where the killer decides to be an a-hole and slug everyone for 4 minutes and not hook them.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886399#Comment_3886399
The second phase is slated in the later half of the year. So it won’t be a year in between the two.
They probably aren’t releasing the two together because the anti-slugging measures aren’t finished yet as it’s not something that can easily be fixed with a simple number change or simple tweak. They can’t just instantly make an anti-slugging mechanic to go alongside it. The only options are to release them separately or push the surrender option back. And of the two, I think we got the vastly better option.
I'm going by the extremes of their release estimates. Phase 1 could release as early as April, and phase 2 as late as December. That's 8 months.
So, sure, "a year" is a bit hyperbolic, but if they delay phase 2 for any reason it's not that far off either. Especially if they delay "due to feedback", which has already started rolling in.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886386#Comment_3886386
They have implemented other things which were announced and where everyone said that it was terrible.
And honestly, some things they proposed were just not really thought out. E.g. the Anti-Slugging measurements for Phase 1 dont do anything against the core issues with slugging, just make it that the last person can save a lot of time by surrendering, but it neither fixes slugging being too good, Perks still in the game which should not exist like that anymore or that it can be used for griefing.
I just find it odd that the surrender option will be based on slugged survivors, yet the anti slug mechanic is slated for the second phase. So, in worst case it could be a year in between.
My question (more for the devs than you, tbh) is: why aren't these changes coming at the same time? Can we not give survivors hope that 4 man slugging will get better first, or at least the same time? Are we really looking at possibly a year of slug meta (with phase 1 further incentivizing the "not hooking" meta) before they fix it?
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886147#Comment_3886147
what does that have to do with the fact that if you nerf camping and tunneling even more then that 10% because impossible to win?
yeah, you shouldn't win EVERY game, but you should have a chance. against that 10%, camping and tunneling is your only chance.yeah, you shouldn't win EVERY game, but you should have a chance.
I generally agree with this on the surface.
However, you use this statement in a way that seems to only apply to you, and somehow not the survivors you face, who you claim have a 90% loss rate. That seems like a much, much higher rate of losing matches that are already nearly or actually impossible to win in the current game.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885784#Comment_3885784
been playing since Ghostface chapter, 3.5k+ hours on the game, maybe you should just google "meta survivor perks 2025" and see how many activate upon getting unhooked :)
Well, first thing is that there haven't been any patches to introduce new perks this year yet.
Since I assume you meant 2024, the only "meta" perk in about 3 years was MFT and that was subsequently nerfed out of the meta. The last one before that was CoH.
Maybe "finesse" is what you're thinking of? Mind blowing amounts of value regardless, since I had to stretch back 3 years to come up with maybe one minor example.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885745#Comment_3885745
then that's wonderful dude, that strategy revolves around survivors going down in 20 seconds and if you tell me youre able to do it while playing c tier killers like pig then that tells me you are not going against good survivors.
ill tell you I wish "Spreading pressure" was a good strategy against decent players, im not trying to be some toxic a-hole by tunneling, but the fact is that they've nerfed every incentive to play nice in this game.
btw, there is such a thing as smart tunneling where you still bother gens and other people, not just chasing one survivor for 6 minutes.No need to be condescending.
I've always said that camping, tunneling, and slugging are situational. In fact, I consider it a measure of game sense to know when and where to apply those tactics.
And I agree that a lot of people consider all of those things to be the only thing they know how to do. "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". And it's actually a measure of poor skill, imo, if you always do the same thing.
I do find it funny though, the most recent stats they have is sure that survivors only get, at most, 66 seconds on average for chase per match. So actually, if you're 3 hooking a survivor, each chase is going to last about 20 seconds. And the rest of the time is wasted, especially if you're kicking gens, or wandering blindly without information.
I don't personally care about the competitive side of things. I want the game to be fun, for all 5 players. I generally consider myself to be average, maybe above average skill. Although to read the forums I've found a way to still kill 60%+ of my survivors, win most of my games, have a fun game that I play how I want, and not "be forced to sweat". So apparently I've cracked the code of DbD, and all it seems to take is not having a meltdown when I occasionally do lose a match. Game sense, understanding how to macro, and using all the tools in the killer kit is apparently a big ask for a lot of people.
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I can summarize it as chase was the most important thing for killers, hands down. "Gens aren't worth the time to kick" was the mantra, and all of the pressure was to be in chase as much as possible.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885630#Comment_3885630
yearly reminder to never listen to anyone who utters the words "spread pressure"
its the equivalent of a survivor telling you to "just wait it out" with old dead hardIf you truly feel that way then there's likely nothing I can say to change your mind.
I simply prefer, as killer, to give most, if not all, of the survivors something to do, whether that's rescue/recovery, chase, or side objectives like killer power (pig hats). I still win the majority of my games doing so.
The alternative seems to be focusing all your attention on one survivor, leaving 2 or even 3 alone to do gens, and then complaining on the forums that gen speeds are too fast.
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Anti gen rush is already in the game, and had existed so long people take it for granted.
There's a base kit, stacking repair penalty for survivors grouping up on gens.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885709#Comment_3885709
These aren't specific circumstances they are very general. I assume you're salty about anti-face camping not working outside of face camping
You can assume all you like, but for me the shining example of this was reassurance being nerfed from the ptb "due to feedback". We likely wouldn't have needed AFC at all if they had simply added "press e to cancel reassurance". But here we are.
ETA: we have zero details on these systems right now. Literally nothing to go on. But based on things like AFC, which is a very specific circumstance and is designed to not affect "camping in general", the evidence is much more that these systems will be extremely limited, and not, as you say, "general".
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Well, certainly didn't take long for the pre-emptive strike posts to start.
I suppose the forums meta is to get the feedback in early that the system(s) are overpowered and need a nerf because they might possibly do something under specific circumstances.
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@Marzipan210 said:
The solution to the slugging meta isn't to make more perks basekit. The solution to the slugging meta is to unnerf hook perks like pop and pain res and dms, and bring back 60 second hook stages - which was an unnecessary nerf to killer considering they had already introduced anti-face camping.
A) none of these changes were even within 6 months of this becoming a "slugging meta". The only changes anywhere close to this timing are the extra 10 seconds per hook stage (which do nothing if you go spread pressure and don't camp or tunnel), and the nerfed to WGLF healing speed. So maybe we should buff WGLF by your logic?
B) this line of thinking has never worked. They've made endless buffs to killers and nerfs to survivor that people claimed "were the reason killers camp and tunnel" and yet, strangely, every time they "fix one" the goal post moves to the next flavor of the month.
DS, DH, adrenaline, MfT, CoH, prove, BNP, reassurance ptb, gen speeds, maps, pallet strength, tile logic reworks, distortion. Every single one of those was the "reason for tunneling" at one point supposedly. Yet here we are. I think this month is woo and gen speeds again.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885281#Comment_3885281
winstreaks made by 0.01% of top players who literally had hardcore comp training and have highest macro game knowledge out of rest of players and are playing against very average players. This isn't a balance issue, this is MMR issue and it will never be fixed because none of yall would want queues to be a minute or two longer so that you could have more accurate matches.
Not to mention that stricter MMR would really shatter egos of majority of this community.
Next time when you or any other person tries talking about winstreaks, make sure you mention whose winstreaks you are talking about
These killer player win streaks don't have to worry about teammates RNG, and have the exact same killer kits, add-ons, and perks available that anyone else does.
The fact that not everyone is pulling an 800 win streak on clown isn't a balance issue. It's literally simply a skill issue. That's the part that most players will refuse to acknowledge merely because of ego alone.
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@XDgamer018 said:
i agree on these changes another thing id make for pig is a way for her to regain her traps (for example if 3 traps are used and gotten off of the survivors then you can grab 1 extra from a locker. or just something to help her regain control if survivors got lucky with the boxes.
This is a huge misunderstanding of how the trap searching works. It's not random.
There are guaranteed 3 searches per hat the survivors have to do (12 searches for the default 4 hats most build will have).
So if the first survivor gets lucky and gets the hat off in one shot, the other 3 are guaranteed to be forced to search either 3 or 4 boxes each to escape the trap. It's a huge amount of pressure late game if that happens.
Using all 4 hats generally means you have at least 4 hooks, so either one survivor got tunneled out and a second is on death hook (you've won the game already) or you have 4 hooks on 4 separate survivors and are spreading pressure so no one has time to do gens (your slowdown ability is maximally effective already). Adding extra hats later in the game is not necessary.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885243#Comment_3885243
Exactly as i said. Tbh its only gotten better for survivors
Adding bots base kit alone is a pretty huge qol nerf and balance nerf for survivors.
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People will get bored of 2v8 also. The longer or more the they make the mode available will make it more common. Metas will develop, the gameplay will get stale.
This is arguably already happening in 2v8 for survivor right now. Nothing new for mechanics, classes, nothing iterated on. Bots are their "fresh new thing" that seems to be only driving people away rather than pulling them in.
The "2" is the only reason people want this mode. The fact that they added bots is just more confirmation that they just need fodder.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883820#Comment_3883820
Have you been the last days online in this forum?
If the Thread isn´t 2v8 related its most likely a slug theme.
So it´s not the survivors fault if they bring Anti Tunnel vs a Slug build
But it´s killers fault if they bring Totems/Aura/Hook builds vs Anti Totem, Aura or Sabo builds?
I have a honest question.
What do we even want?
A stale game where everything is predictable, say same Loops on every map, same playstyle every game, same perks what so ever or do we like dbd cause its not predictable?
Camping, tunneling, and slugging are all base kit for killers. They're always available, for every build, killer, kit, perk loadout. Every game.
The "counter" to these, which doesn't stop them, and at best slows them down slightly, is to completely determine your survivor build and bring unbreakable, DS, OTR, and reassurance. Every game. So zero build variety for survivors, otherwise you have to listen to "BuT yOu HaVe PeRkS fOr ThAt!"
And, specifically for slugging, there is literally nothing base kit that deals with it that isn't also slowdown in the killers favor.
Anti Totem, Aura or Sabo builds
Are not base kit. The survivor is building specifically for these, and deliberately sacrificing the previous set of perks to do so.
Though I'm not sure what "anti totem" is supposed to mean, since cleansing is the only counter. Cleansing is a slowdown time sink that hexes are designed for.