AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Crowman said:
It's always funny how survivors wasting time gets defended. Neither side should be intentionally prolonging the game just to BM.
This is a weird response since literally none of this discussion, at all, is defending these actions.
You're correct that BM shouldn't be a thing.
But this entire discussion is whether or not killers should have additional base kit tools to deal with this issue, and the answer generally is no, that's not necessary with the base kit options already in place.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868346#Comment_3868346
As survivor, the only actions that substantially consume time is doing gens or getting chased. Going for a rescue and healing should be around 20% of your time as survivor, and considering that only one survivor can be chased at a certain time, that means that most of the time the other 2 survivors are free to work o gens.
On your logic, you assume that the killer will always have a hooked survivor in a 3v1 scenario, which also comes with the thought that by the time someone rescues the hooked survivor, another one goes down, which shouldn't really happen against mildly competent survivors. As long the map hasn't turned into a huge deadzone, the average chase time of a killer is 40 seconds (which is a very optimistic number if you are considering high survivor quality).
If you have experience as killer on a high level, you should know that having one survivor down still doesn't mean you can take on any chase. You still have to evaluate if the survivor is in a good position and if they aren't too far away, otherwise you will waste enough time for the last 2 gens to get done.
Which brings to next point that generally the first survivor is supposed to die when there are 2 or 1 gen left, and if the killer is very good, on the last 3 gens. By that point, even with one down, survivors should be able to push the last gens with our current gen speed. With a +30% increase, it would actually encourage the killer to avoid getting rid of the first survivor, if the base gen speed with 4 survivors becomes -30%.
I'm talking generally. Of course you're not going to perfectly capture that scenario every time, but in general those are the main actions of the survivor team.
You'll also have times where two people are hooked, someone is slugged (especially right now) and requires more healing, someone is doing a challenge, someone is lurking for a flashlight save, etc.
The thing you're both missing is why is a 3v1 so hopeless right now? It's because the amount of pressure when you can't dedicate someone to gens is too much.
Adding repair speed when someone can only spot touch a generator is meaningless. Or the amount of repair speed would have to be absurdly high, and most people who claim repair speed is a fix are looking to slap 5% on it and call it a day like that does anything.
You're in agreement with me that you need someone who can just sit on a gen, but the main problem in a 3v1 is that you're going to have to jump off to fill another, more critical, role even when you get to touch a gen. The guy getting chased isn't going to unhook mid chase so the third can sit on a gen, they have to go for rescue.
And in the world where the killer is doing… I have no idea what you think they're doing, but let's assume camping... Then the rescuer becomes the chase target and the third likely has to get off of gens. Or maybe you have one on hook and one slugged with the third hiding for hatch, but gen speed doesn't matter there either.
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@ponzukun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867887#Comment_3867887
I would argue that we are essentially doing the same thing, prioritizing to reach our target number as quickly as possible.
There is no need to compare what both camps are doing to win.
You are the one who is foolish for comparing.Edit: just realized you aren't the original person I responded to, so I'm changing my response.
I would argue that we are essentially doing the same thing, prioritizing to reach our target number as quickly as possible
This is the most superficial way of looking at this possible that misses actual gameplay.
Killers aren't spending time to "reach their target number as fast as possible". They're looking to get "one survivor out of the game as fast as possible". Games are far, far easier when it's effectively an unlosable 3v1 scenario (assuming there isn't just one gen left). In fact, most hard tunnel killers will even start spreading hooks and slow down the game at a 3v1 scenario.
If killers were trying to "reach their target number as fast as possible" you'd actually have healthier gameplay. Because this idea means leaving a hook. If you're goal is to gain hook stages as far as possible, then you always want to be in chase. That means leaving a hook and going for the next survivor as soon as the hook animation finishes. We had this before 6.1.0 btw. (This is also map pressure, which most current killers are oblivious even exists).
Gens get harder to complete as the match progresses. At 2 gens or even 3 it can be much harder to do gens because the playable area gets smaller, resources deplete (pallets, items). In contrast, the game gets easier when survivors lose a player. Killers also have no consumable resources at all now that hooks respawn. The killer snowballs, but survivors stall as each completes their objectives.
You also have the problem of regression that simply doesn't exist for killers. Survivors have no incentive to leave a gen partially complete because all of the work they've done can be completely eliminated by the killer if they do. There's no "locking in" gen progress, at least not until 100%. Every single hook state is permanent, though. There's no item, add-on, perk, or mechanic that eliminates a hook state from the game. And the same goes for bleed out time: you get 4 minutes that can't be extended or even sped up.
And the biggest difference here, for me, is no one is playing as the generator. An early gen complete basically means nothing to the match, and can still lead to a killer win (even all 5 gens completed can result in a 4k). An early survivor out means a player gets 3k BP and doesn't get to play.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868044#Comment_3868044
Yes, please. I wish BHVR would tie gen speed repair to number of Survivors alive. It would be better for everyone.
@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868192#Comment_3868192
I am baffled by how they haven't done this yet. It would help solve the solo queue issue pf bad teammates, since having one die early due to incompetence wouldn't mean that you can't escape anymore.
They haven't done it because it solves nothing.
Survivors only advantage is numbers because they have an action economy. Generally in a 4v1, once the killer has built pressure (hook) there will be one survivor on hook, one going for rescue/recovery, one in chase, and one on gens.
The reason tunneling is so powerful is because when one survivor is out of the game, the survivor team can only do 3 of those 4 roles... And being chased, rescue/recovery, and being on hook are mandatory. Which means no one is on gens.
Unless you take it to absolutely absurd levels of gen speed repair (like 100% extra gen repair speed is nowhere near enough) there's no overcoming that there's literally no one sitting on gens in a 3v1. The level of gen repair speed buff that would be required, especially with the current state of chase, would cause people to burn the forums to the ground. So basically that will never happen.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867920#Comment_3867920
"Never intended to be permanent"
So are people just supposed to wait…5 years like Freddy?
Do you ACTUALLY believe them when they say they will get to it this year? What makes you even believe them? What have they done to make you so blindly loyal to their word? And even if they do, who is to say it doesn't end up in the dumpster like Twins rework?
No. What they did was COMPLETELY unreasonable. If the devs ACTUALLY thought she was that big of a problem, they wouldn't have waited a YEAR to make ANY sort of changes. Completely gutting her in one sweeping move was TERRIBLE and bad game design decision making.
Well, time will tell, but they've definitely said they're doing something about it soon. Which I take to mean early this year.
I don't have information about Freddy, but afaik they didn't promise anything after his rework about 5 years ago. People were disappointed by the result, but I don't believe they ever promised to go back and revisit him on any kind of time table, nor did they make any measures that they said would be considered temporary at that time either.
I'm not sure why you have so much vitriol toward me in particular since I'm not a dev, just relaying what they told us before the recent sm nerfs. I'm on record as saying that they handled the recent nerfs poorly, but I also didn't have their exact reasoning as to why they thought a "break glass" solution was needed. I can speculate, but that doesn't mean they took the right course of action regardless or communicated it correctly either.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867125#Comment_3867125
Yeah, lets remove "hug tech" because that is an exploit, but "crouch tech" is a "tech"
I mean, the devs specifically and directly said that hug tech was unintended almost 3 years before actually fixing it.
I don't believe they've ever said anything similar about crouch tech, they just fixed it silently.
And from a community standpoint, both were just called "techs" regardless.
I'm perfectly fine with them fixing both, even though some skill expression is lost in the process on both sides.
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866552#Comment_3866552
So uh what part of nerfing every single facet of Skull Merchant's kit with zero counterbalance and also leaving her in a bug-ridden state was "fully assessed"?
Since this is the part everyone either forgets or conveniently leaves out:
The current state of SM was never intended to be permanent. They said several times, including before any recent changes at all, that they're reworking her. Which is the correct, long term solution.
Unfortunately that amount of effort isn't something they can just push forward in a week and will take Dev and creative team time.
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@ponzukun said:
On the killer side, I'd like to say that
the "survivors" stick to the "generators" that are about to be "fixed", right?
Few would go to a different "generator" that has never been "repaired" because they were "driven away", right?
You can apply each side's term to the separated word places.
So, when you get right down to it, both are essentially doing the same thing.
So I will continue to work hard on tunnel construction!
Ah yes, we wouldn't want those players playing the "generator" to miss out on playing the actual game because they got "fixed" first.
This is the stupidest comparison I've ever seen and it needs to never come up again.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867645#Comment_3867645
as a survivor you can choose to split up on gens (better strategy) or group up on one gen (worse strategy)
that is the main choice the survivors can make to do their objective (they ALWAYS choose split up but I dont see any corrupt basekit) but like you said there are also flash bangs, and the only reason killers complain about that is because they cant be countered in many situations, even if you are looking at a wall.yes the killer has multiple tactics but we keep nerfing those tactics over and over again. tunnel nerfed, camping nerfed, gen defending nerfed, spreading pressure nerfed, deadzone nerfed. you even have hit and run being nerfed.
you ask people about this and they say its fine because each change was a solution to a "problem", yet when you point out that survivors are still able to split up on gens and do them in record time then they say its fine because they cant do anything else.and against a well coordinated team there is no real other way to win other than to tunnel at least a little bit, and we keep nerfing that
yes the killer has multiple tactics but we keep nerfing those tactics over and over again. tunnel nerfed, camping nerfed, gen defending nerfed, spreading pressure nerfed, deadzone nerfed. you even have hit and run being nerfed.
I'm sick to death of this narrative. At this point it's just lies.
Dead zones nerfed? seriously? Map reworks are tiny shoe boxes with barely any pallets, the pallets they do have are mostly unsafe, and dead zones are everywhere. Take spawn logic was reworked specifically to prevent tile chaining on all maps, and introduced a bunch of dead zones on existing maps too.
Hit and run nerfed? They deleted healing for you. Coh gone, medkits reworked. It requires insane inefficiency now, as killers requested, congratulations. Not to mention the increase in the number of aura reading perk options and deleting distortion so you know where everyone is at all times.
Camping is only nerfed if you can't count to ten or stand 11m from hook. If you have the capability of doing those things, camping is not changed in the slightest. I promise it's not that hard, since literally everyone has already figured this out the second base kit BT and AFC were in the ptb.
Tunneling? Seriously? They gave killers base kit BT so you can hit off hook and disable almost every other tunneling protection perk in the game. People love to tunnel so much that the two perks they've added anti tunnel to are barely used so people can still tunnel freely. And the only real change is the +10 seconds on hook, which people are still playing into face first, or instead being insanely petty by slugging everyone for 4 minutes.
Spreading pressure nerfed? Every change has been to encourage killers to leave the hook and go pressure survivors off of gens instead, and none of those measures are strong enough to make people change tactics. At all. The fact that spreading pressure is on this list means exactly one thing:
you've tried nothing and are out of ideas.
And yeah, the only valid thing on this list, which is the only thing people care about, is gen defense. Spreading pressure is (clearly) too difficult for people to even attempt, and despite them nerfing every reason killers claimed gens went too fast for years now, people only want cobruption meta back and will gaslight and lie until you get it.
DS, DH, prove, BNP, scavenger, reassurance, MFT, distortion, tiles, tile spawn logic, entire realms... were all nerfed specifically because that was the "reason that month" killers couldn't chase fast enough. Those are all done now, and people still complaining they can't hold games hostage by kicking gens anymore.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866677#Comment_3866677
there is only a small portion of maps that have actually been made smaller.
hooks are way closer together than they used to be and now can never break permanently. How can you want MORE buffs? This is a completely unjustified comment
we are constantly talking about strength of hooks in survivor favor taking in mind how many hook related meta perks on survivor side there are and how hooking is actually more beneficial for survivors nowadays than for the killer, and you are still talking about hooks proximity and hook respawn (which is introduced as a bandaid for people forcing deadzones so that killer can't hook them)?
You really, and i mean really have 0 idea about what the core problem is, this statement from you absolutely proved it.
we are constantly talking about strength of hooks in survivor favor
You can talk about it but that simply isn't true or reality.
Hooking is progressing the killers objective, there are a ton of killer perks that activate on hook, and BP incentives for sacrifices on hook. There's a literal penalty for bleeding out survivors.
Fire up is getting a buff soon, but I don't hear anyone claiming that "completing gens is now in the killers favor"... Because it's ridiculous.
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866742#Comment_3866742
"it's the easiest way to play the game" is a weird way of saying "it's the most efficient way to win games", there's a reason they do it in comp dbd. If you play to win you'll use the strategy that makes most logical sense, not play by some imaginary survivor rule book, which survivor mains get really salty about if you don't play by their "rules" lol
I mean, it would be nice if survivors actually got to play the game. The entire game heavily incentivizes not just escaping, which tunneling is pretty much guarantees won't happen for that player, but also survivor gameplay is supposed to be well rounded.
Do some gens, rescue and recovery, chase and being hooked are all a part of the gameplay loop. So when the killer decides you're just going to do exactly one of those things, and get at most 5k BP for the match, it feels kinda crappy.
It'd be nice if the devs even acknowledged this was an issue at all. I get that there's situational tunneling, but there's gotta be something to prevent excessive tunneling at the start as well. They couldn't even make DS 5 seconds again, which is a pretty big indicator that they don't care.
But this is, imo, the biggest reason for the current "quitter epidemic". Why stick around if being found first means you don't get to play the game? All of the anti tunnel in the game is at best a polite suggestion to the killer, and is easily ignored or powered through. Heck, most of it is endurance based and is incompatible with all the other endurance.
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@joeyspeehole said:
I think that Boon: Circle of Healing needs a buff. If the argument is that the OG perk was bad, for whatever reason, it should be adjusted to improve self-healing when equipped with a healing item or perk. That way it would be similar to using Boon: Exponential with Plot Twist.
-Or allow self healing while in it again, but make it slow like Self- Care
I've been saying since the most recent coh nerf it should allow self care in the boon of you have the perk equipped.
That solves the fact that it's mostly useless now, and also resolves the "one perk for the whole team" complaint. If everyone brings the perk, that's more than fair.
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Since this is both applicable and the response every single time camping or tunneling is brought up:
This is how comp DbD is played. Pre drop, pre run, run to comp corner. You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.
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This post looks like a complaint, why didn't you post your profile first?
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865548#Comment_3865548
MMR is not strict enough for that to be accurate. Situations like backfill/lobby dodging also completely throw it out without some parties even knowing, and player agency is not high enough for outcome to equal skill 100% of the time (for either side.) I get what you're saying in terms of relativity, but its still an inaccurate implication unless matchmaking is consistently, explicitly strict.
It doesn't have to be strict.
Almost never will you get a match with all 5 players having the exact same MMR, let's say 1000 for example. That won't happen in the best of times, and like you mentioned, the matchmaker basically turns off for a fast replacement if someone drops out of a lobby.
You'll usually get 1 survivor at 800, 1 at 900, 1 at 1000, and 1 at 1200 or something, and it tries to match with a killer in about that range, but your killer might still be 1050, even though the average is 975.
Typically, what happens in most MMR systems is the gains and losses are weighted also, so if the survivors lose in this example to a killer higher rated than they are, they lose less MMR because they're expected to lose that match. Similarly the killer will gain less because they're expected to win.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865208#Comment_3865208
The gen is done in 60 seconds vs doing it alone for 90…
This demonstrates a staggering level of not understanding the game's fundamentals.
Grouping up on gens, especially early like you're complaining about, is the worst thing for survivors to do. They're grouped up, so the killer coming by will interrupt both/all of them at the same time, and there's no map pressure on gens. That one gen gets hit with pain res and pop and all that progress is gone.
They're also taking a repair penalty for no reason, so two survivors complete a single gen together in about 53 seconds, at 1.7 charges per second.
If they split up, they get 2 charges per second. So in those same 53 seconds they've completed more gen progress (53 seconds on 2 separate gens is 106 charges, instead of only 90 grouped up). And the killer can only interrupt one at a time. So the killer showing up means one gen is so getting finished instead of stopping all progress.
Grouping up is doing the gens slower.
I'll say it again: you aren't getting "gen rushed" by survivors who aren't bringing perks or toolboxes for it. Doing gens is not the same as gen rushing. And you apparently have no idea what it means to even do gens efficiently.
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Most people (almost everyone) isn't "Max MMR", they're just at the upper limit of their skill level.
Simply due to the devs balancing around a 60% kill rate, the "average" killer will be going up against "above average" survivors, because "average" survivors are only escaping 40% of the time or less. That's what happens when you weight one side of the game.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865436#Comment_3865436
I never said wake up and QG can be active at the same time. Maybe re read
I quoted you. You literally said you were chasing someone with wake up away but they get value from QG.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865114#Comment_3865114
Wake up is 25%, chasing anyone else doesn't do anything since they can all just take you away or waste a few seconds with QG, also how do i know u are even a credible player when it comes to experience? You don't even know how Wake Up works and how basic diversion and time waste from a gen is massive time lost. You may not be a casual but ur likely no a pub stomper either. Knowing in game math is not gonna help you win tbh, cus like i said, ur not seeing the bigger picture.
I'm sorry, you have no room to talk about valid experience in game.
Wake up is 25%, chasing anyone else doesn't do anything since they can all just take you away or waste a few seconds with QG
There is no possible way that a player uses wake up while opening a gate and then gives gen repair speed to the rest of the team when they run.
You can't even work on gens while the gates are powered by any means.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865217#Comment_3865217
That assumes, again, that the win conditions are mutually exclusive in that way, but they're not.
A killer has to reach one goal: At least three kills (arguably, for the sake of this conversation it's actually relevant that the game's one piece of ambiguity that does exist is whether 3 kills counts or it has to be 4)
A survivor has to reach one goal: Escaping
Those goals are in conflict but they aren't so strictly mutually exclusive that it's impossible for a player on both "sides" to win. The game just isn't laid out like that, it's not a symmetrical game in its win conditions or its literal player makeup.
To be clear though, because the wider context of the conversation does matter - I'm not saying killers are struggling. They're not, the game's doing pretty good for killers at the moment. I just take issue with the way the game's win conditions are framed so consistently.
Look, I've been as explicit as I can on this topic, and I'm starting to think you're deliberately conflating these two to confuse things intentionally.
If you define a 0k and 1k as survivor team wins, a 2k draw, and 3k and 4k as killer win, then there's no confusion. That's the definition. That definition results in about a 50% killer win rate and a 37% survivor kill rate with about 13% draws.
You're saying that "escape is an individual survivor win", so even using that definition, a 60% kill rate is a 60% win rate for the killer. That's it. The only way you're getting confused is trying to somehow imply that a survivor escaping means that the killer isn't winning, but you're explicitly defining a 1v1 here, so that's not possible.
I can't be more specific than this, so at this point if you're still confused I'm going to bow out. The only reason I can think of that this isn't clear is because you're trying to spin this as some kind of "2+2 = 5 so killers need additional buffs" or something. None of these interpretations say anything except that the devs have been successful in making the game killer sided, as they've explicitly stated has been their goal for a while now.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865209#Comment_3865209
To be sure, I'm not trying to say every player must follow the game's win condition and mustn't ever replace it with their own, you can approach the game however you like.
I do it as well, I don't tend to hang my own fun or personal "win condition" on whether I strictly won the match. I'm just pointing out that the game does actually have a win condition.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865210#Comment_3865210
See above - that's absolutely possible. The game's win conditions may not be literally laid out in text, but everything in the game is geared to support one outcome for each side, that's pretty obviously the win condition.
The conversation breaking down at that point is kinda the argument I'm making. This isn't a way of looking at the game or its balance accurately because it relies on an assumption that I would argue isn't really supported by the game's mechanics.
Not that the conversation can't be had at all, but it's a lot trickier than it seems because the two teams don't have mutually exclusive win conditions, that's not how the game's laid out. You could absolutely argue that's a flaw with the game (I wouldn't myself, though) but it is how the game currently is.
The only problem i have with defining it the way you did is that it's completely irrelevant to the discussion.
OP is saying that a 60% kill rate isn't necessarily a 60% win rate. He's right, but it's not like that changes the discussion in the sense that killers are suddenly struggling, since killers are still winning more than losing (or even drawing and losing combined).
You saying that "an escape is an individual survivor win" is exactly the opposite: every kill is a killer win, and by your definition a 60% kill rate is exactly a 60% win rate.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865197#Comment_3865197
A survivor win is that individual survivor escaping, though.
3k and 4k are wins for the killer, and I'd personally call a 2k a draw even if there's not as much to suggest that in the game, but I don't think it's necessarily a fair interpretation to say that because of that only a 0k or 1k count as survivor wins because that's not really how this game works.
I'm not good enough with numbers to draw any other conclusions, I'll be the first to admit that, but I do think it misses a lot to define "survivor win" only as the killer losing, when the game is set up asymmetrically.
You're conflating two different things. OP and I are talking specifically about "team" wins, even though DBD has one team with only a single player.
You might be able to look at an individual escape as "that player wins" maybe, but the entire conversation breaks down doing that. You even say yourself that a 3k is a killer win… so if we go that route we end up saying the nonsensical "well, the killer won the game, but so did the one survivor who escaped, even though they're on opposing teams". (This problem, btw, is exactly why the devs haven't defined a "win" condition and generally only look at kills).
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865152#Comment_3865152
I don’t know how true this is. In my experience I have….not often but enough been gen rushed by survivors with 0 gen perk because they’re tag teaming.
If people are "tag teaming" a gen, as you say, with 0 toolboxes or perks they're simply doing gens inefficiently and should be splitting up. After all, they're taking a -15% (or more) speed penalty just for grouping up for no reason. That's the opposite of "rushing".
While the definition of "gen rushing" is not very well defined in general, you have to draw a line somewhere. And a team with no toolboxes or gen speed perks is simply "doing gens" at the start of the match. The horror.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865139#Comment_3865139
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865152#Comment_3865152
I don't wanna start a fight or nothing with you guys, but there is a similar thread in your language here that is confusing...
Tunneling and Slugging are basekit and designed? As in a mechanic built into the killer? This is like saying standing behind a rock and staying out of sight is basekit for survivors... it's not part of the kit, it's a tactic/strategy you use your abilities to employ. This might sound like nit picking, but the distinction here is the difference between actual rules of the game and just players using their basekit mechanics to play within those rules... tunneling and slugging are strategies that come from those mechanics, not mechanics themselves, and the reason they are in the game is because they are not inherently bad/evil ideas in all scenarios to do.
I'm also picking you up cause the phrase "bad design" always bothers me, because it is usually a buzz word people throw around and is often not explained and certainly not valid... what bad design are we talking about exactly?
Tunnelling is a byproduct of the fact the killer can kill a survivor after 3 hooks, and the obviously logical understanding that 3 players is not as strong as 4 players. There is also the logic that healthy survivors have 2 health states, unhooked survivors have 1, which again makes logical sense. Tunnelling isn't something designed into the game, it is a strategy developed by players by intelligently interpreting the rules of the trial. Would it be better if all hook stages were shared by all survivors and everyone only had 1 health state, and being injured/healing only meant the difference between making noise and not? Where one weak player can cost the team all of their hooks really quickly and the killer can kill you off a single chase after bullying the weak link all game? What exactly is the "bad design" in regards to tunneling?
Slugging is also not designed into the game, it is a strategy born as a byproduct of logically interpretting that a downed survivor cannot interact with anything until picked up by another survivor and moves much more slowly. Recognising an opportunity to slug, and accounting for the respective risk vs. reward is a strategic gamble on the killers part, where if 2 players are in close proximity where you can reasonably score a hit on both of them, why would you not slug if the opportunity is there to catch 3 survivors at the same time? If you take too long downing the second survivor you can lose the first and spent an additonal 30s+ for still only 1 hook stage. Would it be better if the moment the killer downs a survivor they are automatically forced to walk to the survivor and instantly pick up? Doesn't that require the removal of pallet and flashlight saves completely and reduce the available interactions and skill expression of survivors? What exactly is the "bad design" in regards to slugging?
When it comes to perks countering strategies, couldn't we just as easily say this about any decently strong perk, item or add-on?
E.g. Sprint Burst - Counters the strategy of approaching the gen from the side with the shortest distance to the tile/unspent resources so the survivor has to run to a less safe side. SB however allows the survivor to move fast enough to make it to almost any tile before the killer catches up... Isn't the fact the killer isn't rewarded for playing intelligently here because this perk exists an example of bad design?
Obviously I'm giving an asinine example, but if you're going to say perks shouldn't be used to counter a strategy, you're gonna have to tell me why this stupid example is fine and tunneling/OTR and slugging/Unbreakable isn't.
So, I make the distinction with these being "base kit' for killer because it isn't costing the killer anything to do it. It doesn't have any opportunity cost, which is exactly what perks, items, and addons do. You have to choose that instead of bringing something else. This isn't an item or offering that might be limited in availability in the bloodweb either, it's always available to use.
The difference here is that there's effectively no cost for these strategies to be brought into the game. You aren't choosing "tunneling" over corrupt intervention, or pain resonance. You can always do both. And because of that we run into the real problem with these "strategies", which is that some players can take them to the extreme.. Always camp, always tunnel the first one out, always slug are currently the fan favorites, and the only answer to that is to bring very specific perks.
I'll also add that bringing even one perk to counter each of these not only doesn't stop the strategy, it usually only slows it down a bit (one use unbreakable vs infinitely slugging), but it also means you get no build choice as survivor. You have to run these builds and perks or you can't effectively do anything about these strategies. That is, by definition, a game design choice by the devs.
Your issue with the "game design" is more directed toward someone else, but I'll say this is mainly a wording issue. It's generally on the devs to make sure that the extremes of gameplay are kept in check, and leaving certain parts of the game alone can be a problem.
The biggest example of this was the "double locker save" that used to be possible. It was a "strategy" that was easy for survivors and difficult for the killer to counter. And the only solution for killers was to bring lightborn. That was a "design choice" for a long time, until they finally addressed it and gave killers a couple seconds of lightborn for free when grabbing from a locker. It's pretty easy to see how the previous design was severely flawed when taken to that extreme. (and lightborn is complete immunity. These other tactics "counter perks" are sometimes at most one use per game.)
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You're correct that they aren't the same thing, and that BHVR hasn't defined a "win" condition. However, usually people are trying to somehow use this information to say that the game isn't leaning in the killer's favor currently.
Nightlight isn't a full picture, but since the devs don't give us the breakdown of how many kills per game, it's all we have currently. As of right now the breakdown is:
- 0k: 20.2%
- 1k: 16.6%
- 2k: 12.9%
- 3k: 17.2%
- 4k: 33%
So, if we use the common definition that 0k and 1k are survivor "wins", a 2k is a draw, and 3k and 4k are kill "wins", then you still have killers winning about 50% of the time, about 13% of the games are a draw, and about 37% of the games are survivor wins.
Whether it's the 60% kill rate, or the more nebulous win rate, the game is currently favoring killers in both metrics.
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You aren't getting gen rushed by base kit survivors. That isn't even possible unless you're literally afk.
Tunneling, camping, and slugging are base kit for killers.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865096#Comment_3865096
I don't think you're paying attention.
A gen is 90 charges. Normal repair speed is 1 charge per second, thus 90 seconds per gen.
QG increases gen speed by 5%, so it's 1.05 charges per second. 90/1.05 = 85.7 seconds. 90-85.7=4.3 second difference. So it's 4.3 seconds saved per gen, assuming QG is online for every single second that survivors are working on a gen.
There's five gens, so the time saved is 4.3 x 5 = 21.5 seconds.
That's not even close to 'a minute'.
There's five gens, so the time saved is 4.3 x 5 = 21.5 seconds.
I'll just add that this is an optimal, best possible case scenario that requires one person to be chased with this perk constantly for the entirety of all the gens on the map. With 3 survivors, that's at least 3-4 minutes of constant chase.
Last time we got stats from BHVR, the average total chase time for one survivor per match was about 67 seconds. So QG is only getting you about 2/3s of one gens time, in a best case scenario that's about 9 seconds of time saved if all 3 survivors are on gens, outside of the QG range, and the survivor is in chase for the entire time. 9 whole seconds.
One kick from the killer, even without any regression time afterward is enough to completely undo this perk on a gen.
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@kommandantlocke said:
why is there so many pallets on some maps?
So are you arguing that hooks should be single use?
Or that pallets should respawn after 60 seconds?
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@justadreampallet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864804#Comment_3864804
how do killers choose the direction of chase? I get killers with zoning powers but that’s a small part of the game. Survivors lead the chase anyway they want, I don’t think I’d be bringing the survivor to shack if I could.
and yea me listening to music isn’t the best example but most people will not be able to discern 2 seperate footsteps when they are focusing on the chase. Even when I am fully focused on the game It’s hard to see another survivor waiting for the blind behind a wall that I can’t see through.I’m a Vecna main so in chase I’m focusing on: what spell I should have ready to make sure I win the chase, figuring out what mind game to use, and keeping track of the survivor. Taking the time to listen if there is a second set of footsteps would take away from me doing these things.
Then if I’m in the open when I get the down then no matter what their getting the blind cause if I turn then they just run an extra few yards.
how do killers choose the direction of chase?
So, when I say this I'm never taking about absolute, complete control. The survivor doesn't have that either.
You likely aren't going to approach a gen being worked on from anywhere other than the direction you started from, for example, although... If you really wanted to prevent a direction you could approach from a different way.
No, I'm taking about looping direction and zoning. Once you're at a loop, the killer completely determines if that loop is run clockwise or counter clockwise. Some loops are much weaker run one way.
You can also largely determine which direction the survivor has to leave a loop. Breaking a pallet on one side of the other means the survivor has to go the other way away from you. Again, not every loop, but the killer can go anywhere, the survivor is forced to run away from the killer. So yeah, if you put yourself on the far side from shack, the survivor is going to run away from you and toward shack. But if you can put yourself between the survivor and shack, specifically by half looping again, they have to run away from it.
I feel like these should be killer 101 things, but more and more I'm understanding that people are apparently blasting music, half paying attention to the game, and just following survivors exact pathing around the map.
And you're somehow missing not only footsteps, but also fast vaults and scratch marks at a bare minimum. If you run anything other than slowdown, you can also see their aura. Hell, infectious fright literally hard counters this exact scenario for you.
Honestly, I'm kind of done with this conversation entirely. Your first response literally boils down to "well, a killer barely paying attention to the game should be able to hard counter a well coordinated SWF without any specific perks or effort" and that's just not a reasonable take. It's par for the course on these forums, but not something that should be balanced around.
You're either playing casually, in which case cool: so do I. But then don't get so upset that people might sweat more than you do. My attitude is if they want it so badly then so be it, I don't pretend to be the best DbD player to ever draw breath. (Although to read some of the things on these forums, I'm apparently a god at this game)
But if you're actually wanting to win, then you should start with taking the headphones off and playing seriously. Not arguing that your opponent forced you to put both hands on the computer to play.
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@justadreampallet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864732#Comment_3864732
they don’t need to be inside you for a save. They can coordinate that they will meet at a certain point, or the save survivor can just slow fault over pallets and keep running.
you overestimate how many killers play, personally I play with one headphone connected to the game and one to some metal so I can hear what I need to but when I’m in a chase I wouldn’t be able to hear footsteps behind me when the chase theme is playing, I’m focused on the person ahead, or I am just having fun and not sweating to get the 4k.
relying on hearing to counter something is not fair to people who want to chill and listen to music while they play or people who are hard of hearing.Even with coordination, the killer determines direction of chase and can zone survivors. The extra person lurking still has to follow the chase in your invented scenario here.
But I gotta admit, I wasn't expecting "I only half pay attention to the game" as some kind of argument. Really kind of makes my point for me when people want to half pay attention and just expect the devs to nerf for them anything that gives them any kind of resistance.
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@angel_pellegrino said:
I do have to admit the boon circle of healing lost a lot when the self care thing was removed. I'm not saying that it wasn't miserable to go against as killer, but I just don't see the value of using it in its current state unless you're swf. Whenever I've run it, trying to get another soloq survivor to go over there to heal them is like herding cats. They just do the "begging for a heal crouch" wherever and get mad I want them to follow me to the boon. I just stopped using it all together.
The only value I could get out of it now is making a killer paranoid. Because some killers get all up in their head about boon heals and will keep running back to the boon area to "catch the booner." Of course getting caught as the boon player could result in a tunnel out. That's just the risk of boons.
They should allow self care in circle of healing if you have the perk equipped. So if you bring the perk, you can self care in any circle boon that anyone brought/lit.
It gives circle the self care that made it useful, and also eliminates the complaint that one perk allowed every survivor to use it fully. If the survivor team brings 4 perks slots for everyone to self care in a boon, that's more than a fair trade.
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@Rudjohns said:
Remove the scream
Remove the expose
Remove the UI tally indicated that the perk was used to the killer
And then maybe it can become a decent perk
Funny enough, I recommended this version years ago with donated hook stages. I even thought it should be base kit, and survivors could donate their first hook state only to a shared pool that was used before individual hooks.
Spreading hooks is completely unaffected, but camping the first hook of the game would've meant standing there for 6 minutes until they die. You only need to make camping and tunneling inefficient or not a nearly guaranteed game win for them to be abandoned by the community as "strategies" you use starting in the lobby.
It would've killed early game camping and tunneling at the same time, without nearly useless mechanics like AFC to band aid the problem, and also without affecting late game.
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"uncounterable flash bangs"
Every time I see this it's such a huge tell. Situational awareness is a counter to this every time.
What you're really saying here is that you're going through an entire chase with a second survivor who is not just lurking nearby the whole time, but in order to keep up with that chase they have to be loud, run full bore, leave scratch marks, fast vault, and then somehow the killer didn't know they were there?
It's literally the killers job to find survivors, so if you're missing all of those indicators that's either a massive skill issue or you should try turning your monitor on and play that way instead.
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@H2H said:
I’ve previously proposed a shared hook state pool that would only take 12 hooks to kill all four survivors if the killer spreads out the hooks, but would take 17 hooks on a single person to tunnel them out. I think a period of intangibility after being unhooked would be fair too, as long as it has the conspicuous action restriction.
While I like the idea behind this, unfortunately I think it's way too far for the devs.
Keep in mind that 5 seconds of DS was too much, even with conspicuous actions and disabling in end game, and they walked it back to 4s instead. I genuinely don't think they want to do anything meaningful to fix this issue, especially since there are a disturbing number of players who appear to really believe that "tunneling is the only way to play their game".
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@Zebbao said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863041#Comment_3863041
so what do you think players should do? use the weaker perks and try to lose on purpose otherwise mmr goes up? it's not a universal law dbd and mmr is not that optimal. you can also take a new killer and start catching people with 7k hours already.
So, nearly every single killer on these forums who goes through the steps they outlined claims they also "just want chill games".
So there are lots of options:
- don't use the broken combo at all. Keep using what you were using and still kill 60% of survivors. (Play chill to begin with)
- Slot in one of the broken perks and enjoy not tunneling, camping, or slugging for a while. Broken perks by definition are making the game easier, so take easy games. That doesn't mean you should expect to win every game either.
- Slot in every broken thing and still sweat with camping, tunneling, and slugging. Enjoy your easy wins for a while. But at least understand that you lose the right to complain about "hard games" after you've inflated your MMR higher than your skill level. Or when the perk you're relying on gets nerfed.
Most of these rely on people having self awareness, and are only made worse by people who feel entitled to win every single game without exception.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861596#Comment_3861596
You're right, the killer just has to not continually respect the cow tree pallet and get rid of it early. Then it's just another dead zone. They also make the tile spawn in a useless corner so it's impossible to get out of the area without getting hit if the killer zones properly.
The rest of the windows in that diagram are certainly not "viscous". Shack is shack and the rest of them are terrible.
People complaining about cow tree is a pretty big tell imo. It's only strong if looped so the survivor gets the fast vault every time, and it's relatively easy to get the pallet dropped by looping the other way (i.e. the correct way).
Since the killer completely determines if this loop is run clockwise or counterclockwise, this is one of the most basic skill checks in the entire game. Just don't run it so that you give the survivor a guaranteed fast vault every time.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861551#Comment_3861551
Yes and no. A big part involved a shift from Ruin to other perks.
Kick meta revolved around Eruption. CoB and Overcharge were purely along for the ride.
I saw a lot of PR back then too.
I mean, there are several reasons for this shift, sure. But almost every single one of them is in patch 6.1.
Ruin nerf, tinkerer nerf, and BBQ BP changes all contributed to killers not applying as much map pressure.
Pain res and pop were also hard meta before the patch and those were both adjusted in that patch as well.
And, like you said, Eruption and overcharge were buffed. Eruption actually got triple buffed in short succession: increased chunk regression on down and increased incapacitation in 6.1, and then shortly later was buffed again to apply incapacitation before the regression, which really kicked off the gen kick meta.
But, with the exception of the third Eruption buff, all of that, and the focus change to generators over chases, is entirely due to the 6.1 patch.
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IMO the biggest failure of the 6.1.0 "meta shakeup" patch went beyond just the perks. This community tends to refer to "meta" as just the perks, items, and add-ons, which is fair enough. I think the patch had some good things (DH for distance removed, DS disabled in end game, "follow the notification" of tinkerer gone, as some examples).
The 6.1.0 patch still has perk, item, and add-on issues, but the real failure imo was changing the way the game was played by the entire community.
Killers largely stopped playing PVP and focused on generators. Gen kick meta for 8 months and 3 gen meta for a full year broke how people think and interact with the game entirely, even long after they were fixed. Before 6.1, the match focused on map pressure and chases. Survivors needed to (and had the time to) break all 5 totems on the map to "counter" noed.
But that changed to territory control over generators entirely due to the 6.1.0 patch. Killers would drop chase to go make sure every gen had Eruption applied to it. Survivors learned that the only way to break these new strategies was to finish gens before the killer could lock down 3 together at the start.
And this mentality over territory still persists today, even after numerous changes to maps, pallets, tile strength, nearly every survivor perk that has more than one post about it getting nerfed... The only thing some people still focus on is "just give back hostage level regression again". I've argued with people in the past week that somehow regression nerfs from 6-12 months ago are the "reason they're just slugging everyone now".
And why not? Binding every key to "damage generator" and slamming your face on the keyboard is actually easier than chasing a player opponent.
I think the 6.1.0 patch broke player mentality in an irreversible way. The players who want to play "gen kick simulator" want it back and don't actually want a PVP game (or, at least not a PVP game where the opponent has any autonomy over the outcome).
That, imo, is the true "meta failure" of 6.1.0.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861006#Comment_3861006
Our community. Here on the Forums. Thats where the stats came from. From the Devs and us on the forums together. Midwitch is harder to deal with for killers especially with all the clutter in the middle of the hallways. Huntress and Trickster will have a much harder time not to mention houndmasters already buggy dog.
Vecnas Borgo is by far not a dead zone. Perhaps a bit in the center topside but that is about it. Theres a lot to use on that map.
Certain variations of Autohavens, Macmillans, (Eyeries), Badham, Prenn Asylum, Yamamoka Estate, (The Game, Hawkins, (Lery's), Backwater Swamp favor survivor.
I get where ya are coming from with older maps, but adjustments need to be made.
Haddon field is very killer sided. I agree.
You mean the insanely killer heavy forums here? Gee, I wonder why they might be.
Midwich had been literally the most killer sided map in the game for years now. That's not just subjectively me saying that, that's the devs putting it map statistics every year and Midwich had consistently been "the most lethal map on the game with the highest kill rate" every year for at least the past 3 years. I don't believe they put out those stats after the Midwich map update, but I doubt anything has really changed. It's consistently the smallest map in the game.
They've done a *ton* Of map changes they don't highlight very well in patch notes. They changed tile weightings (to make things like jungle gyms spawn less often), changed tile spawn logic (to prevent tile chaining), they added instead "filler pallets" to dilute the map pool (see any "what the heck is this tile" or "how do you run this" post with a pallet held up by toothpicks as the only playable "loop" in that quarter of the map).
Pretty much all newer maps heavily favor the killer, including pretty much every rework. Macmillan, which you refer to as "survivor sided", used to be considered generally one of the most balanced realms in the entire game. We've shifted what "balanced" means and haven't touched those maps, that's all your statement means there. Which basically means they haven't been fully reworked into killer maps yet.
That is all part of the devs stated goal of 60% kill rates. They're intentionally making maps killer sided to make kills (and the game as a whole) easier for killers. And they've said directly it's not to make the game more "balanced" in the sense of being even, they're intentionally making it killer sided on purpose.
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@DancewithmeKate said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860869#Comment_3860869
Tbh, if all teammates brings their own aura perk ( lets say all of them used Alert ) , it's still so much better than this perk. It's 4 perk slots versus one. It's just shows how badly designed this perk.
Most of side objective perks are just trap for survivors to waste their time for giving extra time to killers. BHVR either need to make rewards better for side objectives or they need to stop push perks like Treacherous Crows
BHVR either need to make rewards better for side objectives or they need to stop push perks like Treacherous Crows
The third option though is to just make the "risk" part of the perk less of a factor, because currently this perk in particular is all risk and barely any reward.
If they're already going to make you do the invocation for each perk separately, then just change the timer for each perk. This one can be like 30 seconds or something. That way they can tune them according to their effect, and the next one that makes the killer's breathing 10% louder or some crap isn't somehow even worse than this one.
They could make more invocation circles spawn. Maybe put one on the map for each invocation perk in play to make it not completely useless to have duplicates, or more flexibility. The circle gets used up or something and they can spawn near chests or potential chest spawns (with a guaranteed chest and circle in the basement).
And absolutely make the broken status not permanent. I've heard people recommend either a timer or only until first hook, and either one of those would be better than the current "no mither but with a time waste".
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860631#Comment_3860631
Why would a killer bring a perk the find the last survivors when all they need to do is out wait them? If survivors waits too long they both get sacrificed due to server ending. I used to bring whispers but found that after a while I thought if I have time to wait like the survivors do then I can get 4k without taking up a perk slot... Just wait out the hiding.
So, first of all... If you're coming to me and saying
Why would a killer bring a perk the find the last survivors when all they need to do is out wait them
I mean, you certainly can... But why do we even have this post in the first place?
The entire conversation revolves around this being a waste of time, so if you're going to complain about the waste of time that apparently happens "regularly", that tells me you're stomping your games a lot. And there's room in the build for perks that can be used to help with that.
People can also improve game sense, and learn where survivors are throughout the match, which doesn't take a perk slot. It also requires that people improve as players, so that is usually of the table for a lot of people. Posting on the forums is far easier.
Or you can wait for the end of the game, but then why are we even talking about it if this is a reasonable solution in your mind?
Second of all:
So now it's perfectly fine to just "wait it out"?
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@PreorderBonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860636#Comment_3860636
Most killers you face aren’t poring over patch notes on forums, plotting how to take out their frustrations on you by slugging. So, when people claim "killers are tunneling just to annoy survivors," they’re being blatantly biased and adding nothing of value to the discussion.
If you’re going to argue about slugging, at least address the actual game mechanics. Ignoring recent changes (like nerfs or finisher mori) or valid strategic reasons (such as slugging for pressure) only fuels the tired "us vs. them" nonsense. It’s lazy and dismissive.
Here’s a fact you conveniently overlooked: BHVR released stats on slugging just 3 months ago. According to them, only 45% of survivors spend more than 15 seconds on the ground, and just 24% spend over 35 seconds total in a match.
Does that mean no killer slugs just to be annoying? Of course not. But pretending it’s all about malice and refusing to engage with the broader picture shows you’re not here to contribute to an honest or productive discussion. You’re just venting. And if that’s the case, don’t dress it up as anything else. This kind of shallow, one-sided rhetoric does nothing but hurt the community by fostering misinformation and needless hostility.
If you want real dialogue, step up. Acknowledge the nuances, address the stats, and engage with the topic in good faith. Anything less is just noise.
Weill, if people aren't looking at patch notes and slugging excessively because of it, then maybe you shouldn't start the conversation saying (sarcastically)
It’s definitely not because gen regression perks tied to hooks, like Pain Res and Pop, got nerfed. Or because the hook stage timer was increased. Or because slugging when survivors stick together creates massive pressure.
Your entire post is claiming that the excessive slugging trend is because of literal game balance changes. So make up your mind about which things you want to defend and maybe we can talk about that.
If you’re going to argue about slugging, at least address the actual game mechanics.
Sure. The finisher Mori concept is partially baked, and probably a bad idea. The initial one on the ptb a year or two ago was absolutely an awful idea. In fact, the devs seem to understand that any kind of Mori mechanic would lead to increased slugging, which is why that ptb also included base kit unbreakable testing. Both of those were bad ideas, which is why they didn't do them.
But now we have the mori to encourage slugging, and literally nothing to in response to slugging instead. That seems like a poor plan, or at least half baked.
Slugging for the 4k is something I've been talking about since they returned hatch a couple years ago. In my opinion, they should allow survivors to either bleed out faster or outright die on the ground under the conditions that 1) at most one survivor is standing (not hooked, slugged, or dead), 2) the slug has reached "find help".
It doesn't change the outcome of the match, can't be abused like unbreakable, and respects the players time. Let's start with that first.
Here’s a fact you conveniently overlooked: BHVR released stats on slugging just 3 months ago. According to them, only 45% of survivors spend more than 15 seconds on the ground, and just 24% spend over 35 seconds total in a match.
I didn't overlook it at all. You yourself say "this was 3 months ago" and that's correct. So let's see the change, since apparently we both agree that killers have increased their slugging since that was published. What does it look like now?
ETA: I also point out that with 4 survivors, a 24% rate over 35 seconds means nearly one survivor per match is probably slugged to "find help", which is why I target slugging for the 4k, because that seems high already.
Does that mean no killer slugs just to be annoying
Personally, I'm of the opinion that camping, tunneling, and slugging should all be situational strategies. There's certainly a time and a place for each one.
However.
There's also a reality that each of those is sometimes used by players as the only way they play the game. If a killer is *always* slugging, in every game, in every circumstance that shows either a complete lack of game sense, someone taking the "easy" way to play (as they see it), or it could be that they're using the "power role" in the game to take out aggression on their opponents.
In just about every post on these forums about the excessive slugging issue lately, there's been at least one person defending it, and specifically defending it by doing what you did: "well if all of these list of changes hasn't been in the patch notes this wouldn't happen". Most of those changes are perceived issues, unrelated to slugging, or (and I can't stress this enough) completely avoided by using multiple strategies.
So, from the community directly, and also the way you entered this conversation: yes, absolutely there are a disturbing number of killers who are doing this out of pettiness, or even protest to the current state of the game.
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@PreorderBonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860388#Comment_3860388
Yes the entire playerbase slugs purely to annoy the other side, no other reason whatsoever. It’s definitely not because gen regression perks tied to hooks, like Pain Res and Pop, got nerfed. Or because the hook stage timer was increased. Or because slugging when survivors stick together creates massive pressure. Nope, it’s just to be annoying. Totally.
A) he didn't say anything like that. He was saying that the increase in excessive slugging appears to be mainly to annoy the other side.
B) thanks for proving his actual point. The entirety of his post is that this new slugging is completely for petty reasons by the killer, and has nothing to do with the match itself. Then, you go on to list a bunch of petty patch/balance reasons that killers are using as an excuse to slug more now.
C) these aren't the reasons people are slugging. The last regression perk was changed about 6 months ago. This is 100% people (who don't understand how the game works) freaking out about 10 extra seconds on hook. Those 10 seconds, by the way, only ever come into play if the killer is camping or lurking near hook to tunnel. Those 10 seconds never even come into play if the killer actually pressures the other survivors on the map.
However, since most of these petty killers can't think of any other way to play the game than to tunnel and camp every single time, the "always play the same way, every game" mentality is now applying to slugging too.
You seem to agree with the person you're quoting that the excessive slugging "meta" going on right now is to annoy people. Survivors, devs, doesn't matter as long as killers get a buff in the end (in your opinion, apparently). See also: entitlement.
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@CursedPerson said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860598#Comment_3860598
Idk with good game sense you should generally have an idea where survivors are. Id like to see an example of one of your games thats somehow a daily occurrence
good game sense
I typically find the largest complainers of this "two survivors hiding problem" are missing this vital piece. Especially because the complaints claim this happens "regularly".
Sounds like, if people are "regularly" completely stomping teams, as some people claim, to where this is a problem then there's tons of room in their build as well.
Whispers (uncounterable, will locate the survivors for you), pick an aura read (distortion got nerfed just for this), and since they have to move to avoid crowds the killer could pick iron maiden instead. Pick one.
The only reason this might happen regularly is if the killer lacks have sense and also thinks they need 4 slowdowns every game. So I agree with you, let's see some of their gameplay.
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@AlexXHunter44 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860217#Comment_3860217
- It doesn't take any specific skill to not get 4 man slugged.
- It's Already a win condition I'm not sure how that changes anything or encourages slugging.
You're advocating for literally the finisher mori from a year ago, specifically:
Whenever an 4 survivors are slugged, the game ends with a killer 4k.
The obvious implications here is that the rest of the game no longer matters. Killers have no need of hooks because they're just going to slug. No one is ever going to try and hook 12 times, or even the minimum of 6 times when you can just leave them in the ground and eventually win by default.
They scrapped this. It was a terrible idea then and it's even worse in your iteration because you're saying the survivors should still have to get themselves up with only perks. Even the devs realized that was going to be a problem, and tested a base kit unbreakable in that same ptb.
Your treading old ground here. They not only already tried this, but the community absolutely did nothing but try to slug for wins and never hook. That's not DbD, it's an entirely different game objective that DbD isn't designed around.
It was a terrible idea that everyone told them shouldn't go live, and they stopped it. There's no reason for us to try and revisit it, especially with no other changes to the game in the process.
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@AlexXHunter44 said:
People need to learn the best way to avoid being slugged is to play strategically as a team.
If your teammates are so bad everyone is down before anyone can pick up, you aren't going to win the match even if you get infinite unbreakable because the killer outmatches you.
Personally I'd rather the match just end like how the survivors die if they don't get out the gate in EGC. Just have everyone be auto killed if they all go down (and noone has unbreakable)
Another option I thought of is to give a "get up" chance like a self unhook that depletes your meter when failed each time, but only to about 25% total so people can't use it as a free DC.
Another option I've seen on here is to be transported to the type of cage that appears in 2v8 after they are on the ground for x amount of time.
People need to learn the best way to avoid being slugged is to play strategically as a team.
I think people already know that the best way to do literally anything in DbD is as a team.
Unfortunately, the game is designed to have zero tools to make this happen as a core part of the game. In fact, it's so bad that the only universal action that every survivor can do is still miscommunicated. Does flailing your arms on first hook mean "don't come, the killer is camping" or "he's gone, it's safe to unhook"?
Because that isn't even consistent in the community.
Personally I'd rather the match just end like how the survivors die if they don't get out the gate in EGC. Just have everyone be auto killed if they all go down
They tried this in a ptb. The finisher Mori they tested a year or so ago was one of the worst ideas they've ever had, and got so much backlash they scrapped it for a year to eventually just make the Cypress Mori base kit instead.
Killers just started trying to slug everyone as the win condition, which is an obvious consequence of doing exactly what you said. And, I'll add, that same ptb they also tested infinite unbreakable for survivors specifically to prevent that. It didn't work, killers were still going for the 4 man slug win even then, and there was a video with an Oni who won that way in something like 2 minutes or less.
Just get rid of hooks at that point, because this suggestion is terrible.
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Unbreakable shouldn't be base kit. It doesn't really solve any problems here.
The only time this could possibly even work is if the killer is just slugging all 4 at the start of the match, and even then it only shows down that strategy, doesn't stop it. They'll just continue to play whack a mole until bleed out if they're determined.
The most common slug is slugging for the 4k. So even with unbreakable, instead of patrolling the map, the killer now camps the slug to keep them in the floor for 4 (ish) minutes. This isn't an improvement.
Just allow survivors to bleed out faster or outright give up instantly when at most one survivor is left standing and they've hit "find help". It doesn't change the game outcome, and actually respects the players time to move on from an already lost game.
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I mean, the entire reason it was required was because it was too much value, and too easy to keep survivors injured when it first got changed. And not just that, but it also worked at nearly full value even when one survivor was dead and tunneled out.
A 90 second gen took 115 seconds with 4 stacks, and 3 stacks was still 107 seconds. That's a metric ton of value already. The two weeks after 6.1.0, it was in every game, just like thrill for a couple weeks recently.
It's even easier for killers to keep people healthy, especially when tunneling, and the same problem exists in your version. And they nerfed healing in several ways as well, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that after healing is dumpstered we're seeing recommendations where the counter is to heal suddenly.
This perk is only considered "trash" because they added an anti tunneling feature to it: you basically stop getting value once one survivor dies. Which, imo is a testament to how big a problem tunneling can be (or at least the mindset that "you can only pay the game by tunneling" is too prevalent)
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859954#Comment_3859954
Is it taking the game hostage, though? While the game does seem to drag on, both sides do have the power to progress the match. It's a bit different from those situations where the Killer bodyblocks a Survivor in the corner where they cannot move or progress the match, and the other three Survivors are dead. That would be taking the game hostage.
There are, as far as I know, at least 3 ways the game can be officially "held hostage". These are against the game rules, and devs have confirmed these are considered hostage situations:
- A survivor being body blocked in a corner and unable to play the game for an excessive amount of time (as long as the EGC has not been started). I'll note that other survivors or the killer can be the ones body blocking here, but killers cannot be body blocked indefinitely this way.
- Two or more survivors hiding and not attempting to progress generators or engage in chase for an excessive amount of time. (The game isn't progressing because of hiding)
- The killer is locking down an area without attempting to down or hook survivors for an excessive amount of time (i.e, camping a 3 gen).
Given that the last one was literally meta for almost a full year, I think it's safe to say that this doesn't result in a ban very often.
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@Saiph said:
Yeah it was quite terrible. Many changes were done just by looking at an Excel sheet. Popular perks were nerfed just because they were popular, without considering what impact they actually had on the game.
This resulted in many absurd changes like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/318JGCR7BMS8/image.png
which made killers tunnel more.
Or this:
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859791#Comment_3859791
That's a good point too: The butchering of BBQ & Chili's and WGLF's 'side quests' made the whole game significantly worse. Before, both killers and survivors could equip these perks to create an alternative win condition that wasn't contingent on the other party losing. Getting four stacks of WGLF would not cost the killer the match, and getting four stacks of BBQ & Chili would not guarantee a 4K. But both were 'wins' in their own right since the BP gain would be incredible.
That whole concept getting removed was awful, and it's really bad that BHVR hasn't thought to re-implement them in some way.
The BBQ BP bonus should've been made base kit. They didn't want it tied to a perk? Fine, just make it always available and give it it's own new UI element.
Nothing about BP incentives like this should be controversial in any way.