AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Prometheus1092 said:
I don't see the issue, no one is forced to do the totems…You can ignore them and do gens. It's interesting that people say it's an OP perk now but people were fine with the way totems spawn in a survivors face when the match starts meaning the hex gets disabled right at the start and had no effect at all.
You need to counter certain hexes, which typically involves cleansing them.
But current thrill makes the cleansing part either very difficult, or with the right killer perks or playstyle downright impossible.
Hexes are supposed to be map wide effects that have the downside of being cleansed and removed, but this offers a fairly simple way for killers to remove that downside entirely.
Not acknowledging that fact means you're either not considering the immediately obvious implications here, or you simply don't care and want hexes to be permanent regardless of what game balance would look like.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849391#Comment_3849391
People have already said what's broken on survivor side you refuse to acknowledge it
The only survivor things mentioned that I'm seeing are perks that were nerfed years ago. Which would imply that thrill also deserves a nerf. That's a valid and reasonable stance right now.
Since you seen to disagree with that, maybe you could list what you think is currently in the game.
Although, your attitude doesn't really seem like your interested in a discussion at all, and just want to play the "whataboutism" card with zero examples. Which is worth nothing to begin with and by just waving your hands in the air and saying "see? Look around!" is somehow worth even less than that.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
I can't argue with Firellius here because they won't change their minds, so I'll just add here the obvious elephant in the room:
Hex perks really are not that common, and if this build becomes a nw meta then Survivor perks will need to change to compensate. What's so wrong about adding a new Meta to learn to play around? Seriously, Survivors need more to do, and this adds it, so what is the actual problem?
I'm starting to think a lot of the Survivor side complaints around here are just "let me win, I want to win more" in disguise. As someone who plays both, I actually think Survivor's in a fine state right now and doesn't need any more.Hex perks really are not that common
They weren't… but if you giga buff one perk to make hex perks nearly uncleansable with the right combo or play style then the only downside to hexes is completely eliminated.
This is also really obvious in that every killer is at least trying out the new, broken thing and it's literally everywhere. This isn't "wow, ruin, haven't seen that in weeks", it's "oh look, undying proc. Better go get started cleaning devour for the next 30 minutes".
What's so wrong about adding a new Meta to learn to play around?
This is exactly the same problem we had with the 3 gen meta. It's puts a hard focus on the "environment" part of the game, and means that everyone is suddenly playing PvE for no good reason.
Killers will start defending totems like it's suddenly been their only job their whole lives and survivors have to deal with the frustration of having basically uncleansable hexes, which is not how these perks were designed.
And this is the same problem we had with 3 gen because the killer's focus is not on survivors anymore. With 3 gen it was, clearly, gens, and with thrill it's totems. This isn't a PvE game, and having one perk giga buffed to cause this whole thing means that change needs reverted quickly.
No one is saying anything about winning except in your mind. This is about "if survivors are designed to lose the game anyway, can it not be a frustrating, and completely hopeless fight over territory?"
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849416#Comment_3849416
what is over-tuned about it? the fact that you need endure hex effect instead of remove the hex immediately from the trial?
Hexes are designed to be countered by being found, cleansed in 14s, or blessed in 28 seconds.
This one perk alone changes nothing about the "being found" part, but increases the cleansing part to 46.666 seconds instead, which is more than 3 times as long.
Given that people threw a fit and lost their minds over claiming that MFT increased chase times by "20%", and since I need to put everything in killer terms for you, this would be like MFT instead increasing chase times by 300+ percent instead. I'm certain you understand how bad that would be for the game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849406#Comment_3849406
BVHR will nerf perk regardless what any killer says because survivor's say that the perk is unfun to face/not fair.
Anyone who isn't completely saturated in killer bias can see this perk is wildly overtuned and, importantly, was never tested on the ptb in this state either.
This is effectively the equivalent of the more recent patch where killing a survivor caused an extra gen to pop for free. It shouldn't have gone live that way, likely was never intended to work this way, and should be corrected in the first available patch.
The only differences here are that survivors are suffering from this faux pas instead of killers, and, of course, that most of the forum posts are discussing how and why it's overtuned and requires a change instead of simply screaming at the devs to change it out of pure egotistical entitlement.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849390#Comment_3849390
Cleansing totem vanilla: 14 secondsThrill increases to max: 70%, making it 23.8 seconds to cleanse.
Face the darkness: scream every 25 seconds.
This was the numbers I found and did myself, but I feel it's probably wrong. I have no idea where 45 second cleansing comes from, but would like to!
Using my numbers, theoretically a survivor can cleanse if timed right after a scream. But then you know they are there, you know to come running back. So defense is all but guaranteed.
If survivors cleanse dull totems they could chew down on that penalty. But this again is assuming the numbers. I need clarification.
If the interaction with H:FtD and TotH is the only real issue, then hopefully BHVR just tweaks that. Butchering seems to be their way.
Forums math makes my head hurt.
Thrill increases to max: 70%, making it 23.8 seconds to cleanse.
This isn't what the perk does. It's not "70% more time" it's "survivors cleanse 70% slower".
So a totem takes 14 charges to cleanse, and at full speed of 1 charge per second, it takes 14/1 = 14 seconds to cleanse.
But survivors are cleansing 70% slower, which is at 30% of normal speed. Which is 0.3 charges per second. That means to cleanse 14 charges now takes 14/(0.3) = 46.666... seconds to cleanse.
Face the darkness is impossible to avoid in that situation.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849356#Comment_3849356
Killers can't see if survivors have flash bangs or that annoying perk that guarantees flashlight from chest (which many seem to use as it makes the killer think no flashlight so light born not needed)
Even so, we're talking about a couple seconds of blindness, which in the case of either flashbangs or flashlights requires the survivor to give up distance at a pallet, or gen progress to lurk for a pickup, for the survivor to even attempt.
The killer perk that deals with this grants full immunity to blindness with no restrictions: there's no ramp up tokens, no charges, no "earning it", just equip the perk at full value all match. And at least this is a PVP interaction: the killer and survivor are interacting, and the killer has methods of counter play base kit as well (just look up, listen for survivors, etc).
Most survivor perks are to counter base kit abilities for killer. Camping, tunneling, and slugging all take no perks on the killer side, and require perks for survivors to deal with them. And even then it's not immunity, it's "partially, but not even fully mitigate the damage" and sometimes only exactly once per game with heavy restrictions.
In this case, something like counterforce doesn't even come close to breaking even with thrill. The numbers don't add up here, and even at max stacks thrill is overpowering the "counter perk". It's just mitigating the damage, barely at first.
And this isn't even pvp. The killer just equipped the broken, overtuned thing in the lobby and now survivors have to deal with the frustration of PvE objects. We had basically the same thing with gen kick meta, only now killers are incentivized to "defend totems" instead of "defend gens".
The survivors are the objective, one perk should never be giving this much value, let alone changing the core gameplay away from PVP to this degree.
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This would just create a stale meta of probably Bill, Zarina, or Laurie for literally no reason. People will just switch to use their meta perks and go with the survivor (skin) that enables that build.
And even fans of "off-meta" characters like Jane now have an effectively dead perk slot in most cases. Or even a more popular character like Thalita.
And are we forcing a terrible perk choice for killers too? Or is this just for survivors?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848143#Comment_3848143
/shrug at killer equipping perks to fix the game + adopting play-styles to balance the game.
This is textbook whataboutism.
At no point does this person say, or even imply what you're saying here.
Survivors are constantly told to "just bring the counter perks, duh" for camping, slugging, tunneling, chase, aura reads, slowdown, add-ons, and the list continues.
Not only is that already more than 4 things, but most of those are base kit for killers, leaving no room for build expression.
Or, in killer speak for you, this is why all survivors already bring the same builds most of the time.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848409#Comment_3848409
What has changed so dramatically over the years, other than the quality of survivors? The principle of victory has always been the same. The one who fixes generators in any unclear situation wins. Moreover, winning as a survivor has now become much easier with all the quality of life buffs.
If you are interested in a specific interval, then.
Tue, Jun 23 2020 - Sun, Jun 28 2020
Fri, May 29 2020 - Tue, Jun 02 2020
Unfortunately, I can't say more precisely.Seriously?
Old dead hard, old DS, brand new part, prove thyself, adrenaline, all nerfed since then at a minimum. Maps have gotten smaller, tile logic reworked to reduce it prevent chaining, pallets are weaker.
winning as a survivor has now become much easier with all the quality of life buffs
They have literally, intentionally, and expressly modified the game balance in the past even two years to make it harder to escape. They literally said so, and have published the stats to prove that they're being successful in doing so.
This is so biased it's obscene.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848421#Comment_3848421
Sorry but when did I say Thrill is fine? Quite the opposite, you can see that I don't agree with the change in other threads
Just because I'm bringing an idea to "solve" the problem doesn't mean I agree with it
My point is: If Thrill stays the same, then buff other survivor perks
You're listing perks where the "fix" was a nerf tho. It's not like literally any of those perks were left as-is and the counter was simply buffed to match. Which is what you're saying you're pushing for.
None of that is in any way a case study for that. It's entirely a case study for nerfing thrill as being overtuned.
Someone else already said it, but DbD isn't a counter pick game. Something like overwatch can have hard and soft counters because you can change mid match. You clearly can't do that in DbD. If someone brings "rock" and you brought "scissors" in DbD, it's literally gg, go next.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848157#Comment_3848157
Made for This
Buckle Up
We Gonna Live Forever
(at any moment) Shoulder The Burden
So, you use three perks that did start out strong, were complained about, and then nerfed.
A fourth perk that is already being complained about with the intention to convince the devs to nerf it.
And this is your counter argument to say that current thrill is fine? You've made an excellent list of your point was to say that, yes, this perk does need an adjustment nerf.
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@joel84 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848164#Comment_3848164
"Survivors have many tools to counter the killer, which they do not want to use"
This is a very important point that should not be ignored. It's just like in real life: Make yourself as comfortable as possible, and if that doesn't work out, then complain, yep.
So I have 4 perk spots to counter camping, tunneling, slugging, bloodlust/chase, killer aura reads, slowdown, and now hexes. Given that 4 of those are base kit for killers, then that doesn't really leave room for much else.
How many perks do you think one survivor should be expected to run every match?
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There's an equivalent perk in the game that moves gen progress around called potential energy. It's already only 50% efficient and you lose everything by taking a hit, so by this logic it should also debuff the killer or something?
STB is just moving hook stages around, it isn't delaying anything. This perk even announces to the killer it's being used and exposes the survivor using it so the killer can capitalize on it.
Are we really at a point where "chase the unhooker" is too hard a concept for people? Yikes.
The outcry over this perk is ridiculous. This effect in its current form already has two side effects that benefit the killer, and that's still not enough for some people apparently.
Literally "doesn't have regression, unplayable" mentality at work here.
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I've offered a pity kill several times. Usually if I feel the killer played fairly. Some memorable ones:
I gave a Myers his Mori at the end of the game since he brought the offering. We both had an altruistic moment where he dropped me at the gate, but I shook no and crawled back in to let him have the kill.
I was obsession for a spirit game and she ran rancor. She had a bit of a rough game and I offered to let her get perk value but she said no instead and let me go.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844780#Comment_3844780
Ive heard that by making it permanent, the novelty of the mode would lessen over time.
Not sure if this could work, but I sadly dont really see any other way. Survivor is already very strong in 2v8, so winning isnt the problem anymore (at least I hope so).
You can already heal others in seconds, do flashy saves and rebuild pallets. What other things would you suggest to make the role more fun? I dont think a 5v5 would work either and I agree, that it would be a totally different game mode altogether.
Edit: one more thing that came to my mind is that the variety in killers could make a difference. Right now, there are only 8 killers to choose from, making combinations limited. More variety killers could also result in more interesting matches for survivors, dont you think?
Little late to respond, but I think this is a good discussion.
What other things would you suggest to make the role more fun?
I feel like the devs are using 2v8 as a testing ground for some new ideas that may or may not stick around. Things like unbreakable base kit, cages, it even class abilities feel like play testing whether these could work in any game mode, a perk, or even live, for example. This is an excellent idea either way, for a mode that isn't permanent (yet).
If they do anything, they should try changing the survivor objective partially or entirely. Anything other than progress bar, and reducing it to 70 seconds instead of 90 isn't substantially different since it's still basically a loading screen.
I feel like the co-op classes for healing and pallets are a good shot at this, even if they aren't tuned perfectly. You want the survivor to be occupied and incentivized to do something other than gens occasionally, and these seem to work for that purpose to varying degrees.
People have talked about a "scavenger hunt" style mode, where collecting a certain number of parts or something is required. Make it with generic parts where you need, I dunno, say 30 out of 50 total parts on the map and can install in any of like 5 or 8 locations for progress. Numbers are literally just of the top of my head, but the idea seems sound in theory with numbers tweaks.
More variety killers could also result in more interesting matches for survivors, dont you think?
It could be, though I think killer variety is more interesting for the killers in general.
I feel like classes are the way to go for interesting mechanics for survivors. There's a lot of creative space they could use here.
Like maybe give each class a reason to hunt for chest items. Each class already kind of corresponds to an item type, so maybe give an active ability that consumes charges. When the guide has a toolbox, instead of gen speed maybe they consume charges to "any means necessary" reset a pallet or something. Give the scout a map and they can spend charges to activate a "resilience" style faster vault at a location for 30 seconds that anyone can use.
Maybe give a team ultimate or something, where once one of each class does something specific it triggers a map wide effect. Like, block gens for a bit, but also reset both killers powers briefly or something.
None if this sounds balanced and is mostly off the top of my head, but imo throwing balance to the side for a bit can also be fun, or at least chaotic.
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@radiantHero23 said:
I would love for it to stay to be honest. Its, at least for me personally, a lot more fun than 1v4. If its somehow possible to fix the queue times, then everyone should be happy, right?
In theory yes.
Unfortunately, I just don't see anything they can realistically do to even out the queues. Large BP bonuses didn't work the first time and buffing survivor to have more things to do isn't really doing it this round either.
The "2" in 2v8 is always going to be more popular. Everyone will want to kwf every time over "stare at gen progress bars, but with even more random pubs".
And things like 2v6 or adding bots I don't think will solve the issue either. Bots already, and always will, feel like a cheap solution. Adding bots in the lobby, by design, is basically an admission that the game mode is just looking for killer fodder.
A 2v6 mode might work, but would likely involve even more buffs to survivors, and just look at the level of complaining we're already seeing about that in 2v8 (which, again, isn't enough to solve the queue issue).
The only thing I've seen mentioned that might work would be more of a 5v5 mode, but that's just scrapping 2v8 entirely also.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844177#Comment_3844177
If you lose to slugging EVERYTIME and the killer has to put in that little effort that is an issue on your end not the games balance.
I never said I lose to it, I stopped playing survivor almost a year ago. But nice attempt at playing the "you're just bad" card. Better luck next time.
And we both seem to agree that this is a low effort, high return play style. And since it literally takes less from the killer to do and is minimal effort, it's the definition of lazy.
But the fact that killers can win this way, enough that people are starting to push for this meta, tells me this is 100% absolutely a balance issue.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844175#Comment_3844175
I can sort of see the argument you're making here, but it's not as though BBQ is actually either incentivising or improving your camping there. At best it might cause the killer to make the decision, but after they make the decision, BBQ does nothing but offer a very vague direction they're probably coming from, maybe, depending on the map layout.
It doesn't tell the killer when the rescuer is coming, it doesn't tell the killer how many are coming, it doesn't allow the killer to ambush someone rounding a corner or crouching behind a loop, it doesn't even tell the killer where everyone is so who knows, maybe the last survivor is the one coming for the save.
The tunnelling point is irrelevant here, since that's literally unaffected by BBQ or pretty much any other aura read in this scenario.
Even at most, the worst thing you can say is that aura reads fail to persuade the killer not to camp, if they're inclined to do it anyway they're gonna do it. You could just as easily make the argument that a killer who doesn't have any way of seeing survivors after a hook will just sit there to try and interrupt someone going for the save because they're not secure in their ability to find someone- if a player is inclined to take the cheap cheese strategy, they are equally likely to treat any given situation as incentive to do it. The only worthwhile situation is to weaken that cheese strategy, rather than attack the things those players are incidentally also using while doing it.
Since aura reading doesn't empower camping and improve its effectiveness in any real way, it's not really a relevant factor when discussing that issue. Same for tunnelling, albeit with a few slightly greyer areas.
the worst thing you can say is that aura reads fail to persuade the killer not to camp
Yes this is almost exactly what I said in my original post. There's nothing preventing people from using these auras in camping and tunneling situations also.
I think the only perk I can think of that does would be grim embrace, because the obsession aura only shows after all 4 survivors are hooked. The aura read is gated behind the requirement of spreading hooks. But the aura read is honestly not why people run grim either.
I may be forgetting one, but none of the other aura perks or add-ons have a similar requirement. And the BBQ incentive to spread hooks was removed.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844207#Comment_3844207
it is called having defaults. the defaults of hooking wasn't working. always slugging in every situation is a strategy… i think your devaluing the killer gameplay because you do not like how killer is winning.
I think the devs have hooks in the game for a reason. And people circumventing the literal objective is a problem. There are BP incentives to hook, and BP penalties when a survivor bleeds out.
It is inevitable, if this continues in large enough numbers (ie, meta), that the devs will have to address this tactic and people will not like the nerf when that happens.
A similar, but not quite equivalent, result is survivors who swarm the killer with flashlights for rescues. Again, if done situationally (sparingly) this is good gameplay. But if every survivor decided to forego gens for half an hour to simply deny the killer any kind of down, that becomes what people describe as a "bully squad".
In fact, the response to this in the past was base kit nerfs to prevent it. This is exactly what happened with locker flashlight saves, and why killers get a base kit lightborn for a couple seconds during a locker grab.
I'm almost 100% certain no one, including you, would describe that as "a change in the default" to try and justify it. In that sense, excessive slugging is the killer BM'ing and avoiding the objective in a way that is merely an abuse of game mechanics, instead of the survivors.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844177#Comment_3844177
you realize that hooking all the time is no situational awareness, game sense or nuance. personally, i don't have a problem with killer gameplay being pushed towards slugging. it just means that hooking doesn't have enough of a reward. the killer trying to win is not BMing.
I'm personally of the opinion that camping tunneling and slugging are situational tactics. There's a correct time and place to do them, and typically that situation is going to be rare or at least sparingly.
Doing one thing in every situation is simply incorrect. And being better at the game means at least knowing when those things should come into play.
So yes, always picking up immediately or always hooking in every case is not always correct either.
But that isn't what people are taking about with this "strategy". It's just "always slug in every situation". It's lazy, takes no game sense or thought, and, like I said before is nearly maximizing BM to your opponent.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
Why are people acting here like slugging is not good thing to do?
There are definetly situations, where slugging is best option, it's not just "toxic" thing done by killers…This isn't "situational slugging", this is the latest "lazy killer" strategy of just doing one thing in every situation no matter what.
It used to be camping and tunneling, until someone realized they could do even less and just never pick up survivors at all.
It's an "always slug, all the time", which requires no situational awareness, game sense, or nuance. It's the latest "slam your face on the keyboard" for low effort games, with the added bonus of usually pissing off your opponent because you're basically BM'ing all the time.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844074#Comment_3844074
What perks are going to give them that information in that scenario, though?
When they first get the hook, sure, there's some there, but those perks won't show the killer how to cut off the rescue attempt if it happens more than a couple seconds after the hook.
Let's use BBQ as an example. Since my point isn't about quantity, but about how these perks are being used or even intended.
For myself, I run BBQ and hook a survivor. It shows me the auras of survivors farther away, and I know generally where to go to interrupt them on gens to keep map pressure rolling. Especially if I see 2 people working on a gen I know I can apply the most pressure by going that direction to say hello.
This is what I feel the perk was intended for, and was largely used for in the past (pre-6.1). This is also what I suspect the person I replied to means by "what survivors wanted" since everyone gets to share in the chase/pressure, and has a generally more well balanced game (some chase, some gens, some recovery, and tangible BP gains), while the killer is actually applying pressure.
But let's take the same scenario for another player, like how people claim to play killer on the forums: they hook, see two people on a gen with BBQ. Instead, they decide "that gen is gone, I'm staying here" and camp the hook at 11m. Inevitably, or eventually, the survivors do finish that gen since there's no pressure, and the killer knows exactly where they are coming from. In most cases that will be the direction they approach the hook, so the killer waits to interrupt them there. This is effectively equivalent to "holding a corner" in a shooter game.
And once the unhook actually happens, since the killer has applied no pressure, they also tend to decide to tunnel the unhooked survivor, side "gens fly" (and the killer has done nothing to stop them).
Now, the perk or aura read of BBQ isn't problematic, the perk itself is fine. But the mindset and how it can be used is the issue, which is my point to the person I replied to.
Although this assessment varies perk to perk and the use cases.
You also have the added problem of "mind gaming during chase" that they specifically mention is mostly deleted or nearly impossible in some cases by using something like new zanshin or weave attunement, and predator is literally a killer second chance perk. So survivors actually doing well or "winning" a chase can be completely impossible, or undone by these effects.
So someone saying "survivors should be happy" about these aura reads is missing the mark entirely. These perks aren't incentivizing the kind of gameplay he's portraying them to, at least they don't require it. Not that people can't use them for healthy play, but people won't if there's no downside either.
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@Sandt1985 said:
I'm kind of confused by survivors hating killer's aura reading abilities as much as they do. Survivors often say that the most enjoyable part of DBD is the chase. Looping, mindgames, cat and mouse, that sort of thing. Auras reading abilities help killers find survivors and that leads to the chase. Is that not what survivors want?
Plus, aura reading on stealth killers is pretty mush the only time that DBD, a horror game, feels scary. Why would anyone want to remove one of the few times a killer can literally scare a survivor player?
Are there any restrictions for the killer to not just simply use these tools to tunnel and camp more effectively?
No, there aren't any. Whatsoever.
So instead of "hey, the killer can use these perks to spread pressure and chase multiple people per match! That also gives survivors a more well rounded game!"
We get this: "well, the killer knows where everyone is and is just standing 11m from the hook, and can also see exactly where to cut off the rescue attempt. And even once the rescue occurs, the killer can always find the unhooked survivor and tunnel them. That survivor can't escape without drastic measures against the aura reads".
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843424#Comment_3843424
Very well said, and to add about camping and tunneling being necessary:
It can be, but the opportunity needs present itself. If a killer see's their against a good team and immediately switches to "Im going to tunnel this 1 guy out", you are giving that one person all the resources that are meant to be split between 4 people, and are letting 3 people complete gens uncontested. Its not as black and white and some people make it out to be.
I like to say that camping, tunneling, and slugging are situational. I generally don't like any of them if I'm playing survivor and try to avoid them as killer, but there's a time and a place.
I've done all of them myself too, but sparingly and it's usually very rare that I feel it's justified. Almost always late or end game, never out the gate, for example.
I generally feel like people who say "tunneling is necessary" are overusing it and probably go into a match with that as the plan. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I feel like it's a measure of game sense and player skill to know when those strategies are actually needed, and not just resort to using them all the time.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843424#Comment_3843424
The killer team has perfect coordination.…Unless you play Knight, that is. The Jailer loves to let me down.
All jokes aside, I mostly agree with what you've said here.
Lol that's fair. Zombies too I suppose.
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Here are some uncomfortable counter points and other thoughts:
You aren't high/Max MMR, you're just in over your head.
Camping and tunneling aren't necessary for the average player in any sense. These are base kit "strategies" that are easy for the killer to execute and difficult for survivors to counter effectively. This leads to killers over using these tools for easier wins until the killer eventually boosts their MMR higher than their actual skill level. Typically this is followed by complaining on the forums because the game is "too hard".
If you use camping, tunneling, and slugging as situational tools instead, you'll not only be better at the game, but also be at your actual skill level for easier games. The game is trying to force a 60% kill rate, so you can choose to use camping and tunneling in every situation, sweat every game, and kill about 60%, or you can use game sense, have chill games at your actual skill level, and still kill about 60%.
The killer team has perfect coordination.
Solo survivors have very few built in tools and no effective communication. SWF isn't guaranteed to have communication either. But a team of one person is always on the same page as themselves. There isn't one person doing totems while 3 are trying to escape, for example. Killers in 2v8 have the same problem, where not being on the same page can be detrimental.
A 50% killer win rate does not mean survivors are winning the other half.
Using a 3k or 4k as a killer win, killers are currently winning about 51% of games. Survivors are only winning with a 0k or 1k about 37% of the time. Draws are about 12%, which is the conveniently forgotten statistic.
Whether you look at wins: 51% (which is only partial data since BHVR doesn't post this information) or kill rates: 60% (official data), all of these stats indicate the game is currently balanced in favor of killers.
The killer determines the pace of the game.
This i somewhat agree with. Although, many people need to hear that survivor gameplay is almost entirely in reaction to the killer. If the killer is AFK, survivors game play is "do gens and leave", and everything else is a reaction to what the killer does.
If the killer decides to focus on one survivor, by camping or tunneling, then there are 3 other survivors with nothing to do other than gens.
Update feel reactionary.
Completely agree. Some people on the forums actually feel entitled to change solely based on their feedback and have been angry they haven't been catered to fast enough.
To the Devs:
Mostly agree that there should be a coherent game direction. The devs need to generally have an idea of how they want a game to play out. Things like the current "gen speed increase on hook" are highly confusing because of the obvious implications: people will try to avoid hooks. Is that the gameplay you want?
What, generally speaking, do the devs want a "typical game of DbD" to look like? Because it feels like it's just a sandbox for players to do whatever. But balance changes absolutely affect the gameplay.
Hard disagree, though, that they're balancing for "best killers" vs "low level survivors". Quite the opposite. They're absolutely balancing for SWF, and since they keep making base kit buffs to make killer easier, the trend is more "average killer" should be able to contend with "very coordinated teams". Given that we had "chess merchant" as an extreme example, you had an average killer who nearly beat the best competitive survivor team, I think my assessment is more accurate here.
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@PreorderBonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843106#Comment_3843106
You could play pre-nerf Skull Merchant (who was fairly balanced), and people still gave up every single game simply because they didn’t like the killer. Slugging, tunneling, camping, these mechanics are annoying, sure. But the reality is that the majority of complaints stem from that one survivor who gives up after being downed in their first chase, simply because they couldn’t run the killer for 5 gens, farm clips, and t-bag at the gates.
These players know they can cherry-pick lobbies and get away with it because BHVR has effectively handed them a free pass. It’s not about tunneling. It’s not about slugging. It’s not about camping. It’s about entitlement.
Stop enabling petty survivors to give up and skew the stats, and you’ll get a clearer picture of what the actual issues with the game are. Only then can we start addressing the real problems.
You're just projecting into the scenario.
Again, I can't say this enough: people haven't gotten more petty over time. People disconnecting in this large of numbers is indicative of a pretty big game health issue.
You're also completely discounting things like tunneling which absolutely is a factor here. Smaller maps, nerfs to survivor perks and items, base kit killer buffs, making many killer add-ons base kit, and tile and pallet nerfs all contribute to reducing chase times and inherently making tunneling stronger.
So, tunneling is meta, the game is hard designed for survivors to lose the chase, they can't choose not to be tunneled. So if you get a few games of 3k BP in a row, then yeah: what exactly is the point of playing the game? The player is being told by the devs, the killer, the game mechanics, that going next is the only way to play. And that's just one example.
And that seems wrong. There should be some hope that players actually get to play the game. When you take that hope away, then "better luck next time" is literally the message in big, neon letters.
So let's fix that. Maybe making the survivor experience not completely suck and doing just about anything would be beneficial. And I'm not taking about endurance that's hard countered by counting to 10 or a mechanic that disables of you stand 11m from hook. An actual, gameplay improvement for players.
The devs have been driving toward an arbitrary 60% kill rate for years now, and every indication of game health seems to be that that is simply too high. Most players in these forums who only play killer have no problem with incessant killer buffs and constant survivor nerfs. Some people seem to think death garden is the goal: tip the game to the killers favor so much that it kills the game.
Let's try not to get that far and fix a few things. You don't do that by treating a symptom, you fix even one of the core issues a little bit.
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@WW1PilotAce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843370#Comment_3843370
because it doesnt happen, why waste time punishing killer for things that never happens
Yikes.
It does happen, and I've had it happen to me. I never said it was common in my games, although there was apparently a literal "afk killer meta" in other regions for a while.
It's also a thought experiment, and one that you are consistently failing. Do we punish players for refusing to participate or not?
Your answer is "survivors yes, but killers no". My answer is "we should fix the reasons players are giving up for any role".
You're being biased and only looking to punish survivors.
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@WW1PilotAce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843314#Comment_3843314
punishing killers that stay afk in the corner? dude that never happens like in my last 1000 games it never happened
The Eastern region, which usually almost never posts on English forums, has reported afk killer bots on multiple occasions.
But my point is, for people who are so quick to punish players who aren't engaging, it seems suspicious that every single response always boils down to "punish the survivors, but not killers for the same thing". Your post just reinforces that.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843329#Comment_3843329
That's because those bots are performing an action. The force dc only works if absolutely no action is performed from the second the trial begins.
Edit. At least that's the only time I've seen it happen. I saw a hillbilly stand in place, doing nothing and eventually we all "escaped"
Ok so, the trapper I played against once who had only 200 points from setting exactly one trap and going afk the rest of the match went completely unpunished for that
So my point stands. The person who brought this up is looking to punish survivors for "bypassing the DC system" and as an example brings up a system that is completely trivially bypassed as well.
Which is what I've been saying: a punishment will do nothing, and people who want to do this will continue to do so.
If you really want to reduce people giving up, then you have to address a reason they're giving up, literally *any* reason.
You can't fix petty reasons, and those existed before. But I also listed a variety of actual balance reasons that contribute to this problem, and those should be addressed by the devs. That would actually do something here.
His main argument continues to be "punish the player" and specifically "punish the survivor, but not the killer" since he still hasn't proposed a way to stop killers from doing this exact. Same. Thing. This current system is identical to giving up on hook or avoiding crows.
But balance concerns affect both sides, which is also why I focus there.
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@Malkhrim said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843279#Comment_3843279
And that's exactly what I am suggesting: get rid of attempts to escape and instant death on missed skillchecks. The 4% mechanic is extremely outdated anyway and ruins thousands of matches every day only to rarely, RARELY lead into something fun or a different outcome at all. It's just not worthy keeping.
And reworking Deliverance is simple: just make so Deliverance, Slippery Meat and Wicked unlock a self-unhook action, similar to how the anti-facecamp mechanic does it. The only that would need more details changed would be Slippery, but that can be arranged. Up the ante could just get completely reworked into something different, since that perk is crap anyway.
People will just stand and point at the hook, chase the killer, throw every pallet on the map, miss every skill check, or do something else to be useless.
If the main reasons people are giving up on hook are that the survivor experience is terrible, making it worse solves nothing.
I've never seen so many people on this forum who are genuinely advocating for "the beatings will continue until morale improves"
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843314#Comment_3843314
There literally is a punishment in place for it force DCs them
Nope, sure doesn't.
And even if they added something like this, moving slightly or swinging the weapon bypasses it. There have been posts from users in other regions that talk about epidemics of afk or even afk-bot killers that do exactly this to throw matches.
So I don't believe this exists at all, but even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say, sure it does… it doesn't work to deter people, and your point still falls flat.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843167#Comment_3843167
You missed the point entirely. Regression perks from getting hooks is getting less valuable therefor it (in a lot of cases) is better to just leave the person on the ground. Also 4 health states off hook, 1 from OTR/basekit bit, another from DS, and then DH. You can be forced to win the equivalent of 2 chases for one survivor or hitting them times.
Again, you even admit that none of these regression perks have been touched in like 6 months. That isn't the reason things are changing right now.
The most recent change, in fact, was a buff adding another 2.5% of "current" progress base kit to every kick, including pop. So... Making more of these strongest form of pop base kit.
And don't even try moving the goal post here. You started out complaining about base kit BT, which is trivial for killers to ignore or counter. Suddenly you're changing your stance to literally "but, if the survivor brings 3 perks the killer has to wait a little longer to tunnel and this survivor build only works exactly once per game".
I can't take you seriously, goodbye.
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@Pelaan said:
Except we can or at least attempt to the root cause is truly this mechanic that is enabling survivors to be quitters yes they can do all that other things but it will be more annoying for them at least. Devs have attempted fixing this root cause y'all complain about always and it isn't working now is the time to try a different method and that's removing attempts on hook
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843106#Comment_3843106
You're not understanding. People not wanting to play the game is the symptom, and you're ignoring every single reason this could occur except the one you want (in this case players being petty). Which, as I said, doesn't account for the huge increase in this behavior.
Since punishment is all you seem to care about, how do you propose punishing killers who afk in a corner until the match ends?
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843143#Comment_3843143
Good because if they nerfed pain res or pop even more it would be unironically nerfed Overbrine tier. So much work for so little reward meanwhile perks like Lithe or Sprint burst give big rewards for no work done. Then stacked on top of that fact the basekit hook buffs. The original base kit BT was fine but then they extended it and added a 7% haste on top not to mention flashlights just downright being free. A lot of factors one of them for me especially is 4 health states off hook that they shove in your face any chance they get.
So you admit that the regression changes have literally no bearing on the current slugging trend.
But you struggle with base kit BT? I didn't think counting to ten was that hard.
Although, counting all the way to ten is, I suppose, hard if someone can't count health states. And you've clearly never played survivor if you think someone has 4 health states off hook. They made endurance not stackable like a year and a half ago?
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842944#Comment_3842944
Well, yeah, some of us are (I for example). That change was poorly thought through and not in the least equal to the gentime increase, no matter what the majority of survivor mains seem to think. The math just doesn't support this claim and for many the +10s hook timer was the straw that broke the camels back and made hooks more detrimental to the killer then slugging.
But don't get me wrong, I am not one of the Knockout crew, I tried that build one evening and experienced how much more effective slugging was when compared to straight hooking, especially with all the dangers of picking up involved and how many perks get powered by being hooked, and vied for rolling the +10s hook timer back.
That change was... not in the least equal to the gentime increase
This is absolutely true.
The gen time increase always applies and there's nothing survivors can do to avoid the extra gen time they added. They can try to offset it with perks, or BNP, but the extra 10 charges is always there.
The extra 10 seconds on hook stages is completely avoided by the killer not camping or waiting near the hook to tunnel. It's completely, entirely within the killers control to never see that extra 10 seconds come into play.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842934#Comment_3842934
The reason is because hook perks are increasingly becoming less rewarding. Pop nerfed to current progress then buffed to be somewhere in the middle to back to the 20% current. Pain res getting 20% less regression overall while more and more basekit buffs happen to hooks for survivors overall. And no WGLF should have stayed at 100%. Double the heal speed is already MORE than enough.
These perks have not been changed in any way, shape, or form for like 6 months.
Anyone claiming this is the cause of increased slugging is simply lying.
It's mainly killers throwing yet another tantrum that literally anything was changed that wasn't a pure killer buff.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843094#Comment_3843094
So people are still gonna be able to hook suicide easily
People can also stand afk at a hook, run toward the killer, hold shift so they can't be healed and bleed out. Even killers can just go stand in a corner and AFK.
You can't fix all of these things. And genuinely, most of these are just looking to outright punish the player.
No one ever seems to ask in these threads "why are people giving up on hook more now?" People being petty has always been a thing: didn't like the killer, or the map has always existed. People haven't started being "more petty" recently, and chalking this up to pettiness in it's entirety is either bias or blindness to the problem.
Giving up is a symptom, and we need to target even one of the causes.
So what changed? Is it that 60% kill rate target is to high? Is it that tunneling, camping, and slugging are simply too strong and the tools to defend against them basically useless? Is it that maps have been converted into shoe box sized areas with mostly dead zones and pallets held up by toothpicks? Maybe going through the killer roster making most add-on effects partially or completely base kit is too much. Maybe having basically no new survivor perks in two years that aren't either completely unusable or useful for a while until being nerfed into completely unusable.
Imo, it's a combination of all of those. So if you want to actually target the root cause of giving up, that's where to start. Giving up is a sign that the game's health is not good. Those things contribute to the problem, and punishing people for a game design flaw is only going to either make it worse, or we'll just be chasing the symptom with more and more punishment over time.
Target the cause of the problem, and the symptom will diminish.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842739#Comment_3842739
Is there anything for killers in 2v8 that is genuinely overturned? I don’t think there is a single thing that’s overturned considering how easy it is for survivors to win.
Uh, the "2" part?
Like, this forum is roughly 50% posts about how SWF breaks the game, "the game wasn't designed for comms", and playing in a group is simply too powerful.
Now you're giving the group the PoWeR RoLe and the ability to damage the other team and it's considered balanced?
I personally didn't think SWF, in general, is nearly as big a problem as people want to make it out to be. But if people are genuinely convinced that it's game breaking (or should be bannable for some people) then this is absolutely valid.
Again, it's an LTM, so I'm not expecting balance. Hopefully it's fun, and it appears to be popular enough even despite the balance and queue times issues it does have.
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I feel like a lot of people are missing the part where a priority queue lowers the queue times for everyone.
If half the killers go play a few games of survivor, the other half of killers automatically get faster queue because get people in line. (Obviously half is extreme, but the point is there)
It still doesn't change that this game mode enabled the one thing people really want, which is playing killer together. When you convert the SWF teams to kwf, there's just not enough reason for people to play survivor to keep the balance.
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842735#Comment_3842735
Watching Survs juicing 2 killers is the ultimate skill cap I've seen the clips
Watching Survs juicing 2 killers is the ultimate skill
capgapFTFY
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841364#Comment_3841364
that's a nice projection, senator, but why don't you stop twisting my words to fit in your actually biased narrative.
2v8 has severe queue issues because killer role is too fun and actually has new interesting gamemode-level gameplay dynamic going on. Survivor role is dumbed down to no end and has nothing going on and the way devs try to fix it is by making killer role as miserable as possible by overbuffing survivors and expectedly fail because the balance was never the issue.
Killers are miserable, and yet there's still a massive queue time for people lining up to play killer.
Which is it? Is killer more fun in this mode, or miserable?
Because you seem to want to say both in the same breath. The only way this makes any sense is if killer is miserable, yet survivor is somehow far worse (making killer the preferred role), despite having the extra features for survivor.
Which is exactly what I said. I didn't twist anything. I said the exact same thing you did. You just don't like the reality of it.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
Funny how even with all the overpowered survivors classes, killer role is still not miserable enough to not have fast enough queues with 2/8 player ratio.
Dont worry, they'll make it even worse next time
I see how you're trying desperately to spin this, but let me write exactly what you said in a way that isn't trying to be killer biased:
"They've made so many improvements to the base game for killers, including base kit buffs, killer kit buffs, and map/tile/pallet changes. And to such a degree that even despite giving survivors extra base kit classes, ultimate abilities, and a slew of other mechanics that aren't in the regular game, that killer is still the more enjoyable role that people are desperate to play."
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Pinhead chain hunt really messes with many mechanics and wouldn't be a good fit with a lot of things.
Jigsaw boxes or TV's being trapped kinda makes that synergy completely broken.
Legion would probably need adjusted since getting 5th hit instadown seems way easier on 8 targets.
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@Arbmos1998 said:
How is this even remotely possible? 8 Gens to complete with supposed "catch up mechanic" where If the Killers are getting cage stages the Survivors gain 1% gen progression but once completing a gen the Survivors lose 1% gen progression.
The Killers were Blight and Wraith who got 10 Cage stages which isn't even half their objective, no kills. We completed 8 gens in 4 minutes 14 seconds, that's near enough 250 seconds match time which works out to be 31.25 seconds a gen.
The lack is gen regression for Killer in 2v8 is quite sad I feel something interesting could be a basekit Surge so at least there is something. We know Gen regression at base is laughable so I'm not sure why BHVR thought the Guide class would be a good idea to implement.
Could it also be I happened to have hackers on my team? No way of telling becasue the game doesn't have a replay system but there is also clips out there of gens being done in mere seconds with the Guide class.We completed 8 gens in 4 minutes 14 seconds, that's near enough 250 seconds match time which works out to be 31.25 seconds a gen.
Forums "math" makes my head hurt. That's not how this works.
You have people doing simultaneous actions, which is the only advantage survivors have.
So even 4 people doing gens, and if gens were 90s, it would still be possible to have all 8 gens complete in about 200 seconds.
It's not "30s per gen" it's "70s per gen, but we're leaving most of the team alone to sit and finish them".
These mechanics exist to offset the fact that two killers can reduce chase time to zero by teaming up and double tapping a single survivor.
Stop obsessing over regression, when the killers objective in this mode can be reduced to literally zero.
It doesn't matter how many killers exist if none of them know how map pressure works.
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@theonryo123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837091#Comment_3837091
see that shouldn’t be necessary in my opinion. Bully squads exist for a reason there was no need for them to change cage sacrificial to hooking sacrificial because it’s literally 2 against 8 and gens are flying too fast and u have to deal with flashlights and pallet saves? This is crazy to me I wish they change it to stomping cage again
@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837091#Comment_3837091
"More second chances are why the change was made"
Because as typical, BHVR's answer to making the game more fun for survivors is to make it LESS fun for killers. Not quite sure how they feel that's the best route, but I can assure them they are wrong.
These are really weird takes.
The first iteration of 2v8 had virtually zero killer interaction unless you were being chased. So unless you were actively caged, or being chased, there was literally zero reason not to be pumping gens.
Now that there's some kind of killer interaction that actually draws survivors away from gens voluntarily, that's also a bad thing? This gives people a reason to go for chests, and possibly make an attempt at a save, which is literally part of the pvp game. All of that is right spent not doing gens. For free.
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You can keep the "More Gens Done = Less Gen Speed"
Punishing the Objective always = Bad.
The forums in two sentences.
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@Vishlumbra said:
Hi, thanks for taking the time to read everything.
My general concern and the solution I’m proposing is not promoting these strategies that affect the survivor experience, I am saying that if we balance the game in order to protect such experience, we have to keep in mind why those became a thing. This game has two well defined sides, killer and survivor, you can’t just call out one side saying they ruin the experience and beg to nerf them to the ground without taking a look at the overall state of the game and, of course, protect the gaming experience of the other side.
If thats the case how many resources were burned in that time? How much quicker will the next chase be because they burnt the resources? Is it a killer that can laugh at hold W, or not? What perks are brought? What gens got done? Theres a metric ton of factors that goes into this.
The majority of killers are going to have a hard time stabilizing a game when you lost 60% of the objectives during the first chase. If you want to regulate how killers should act in order to give you a good experience playing, you have to reward the gameplay you want them to have. By playing the way survivors want killers to play, translates into killers never winning at the current state of the game.The problem with this is that there’s an asymmetry every game. When you have a chill killer but survivors playing to win no matter what you lose. If you have a killer playing to win and survivors chilling the killer will win, but, and this is the big one, if both are playing to win, most likely the survivors will win because of the current plethora of perks that exist, the time it takes to complete objectives and even more so now that they are adding a super powerful perk capable extending survivors time in game significantly.
Here is where the comp conversation came into place for me, because when you have both sides playing to win no matter what, the rules have to favor the killer, otherwise, they would be incapable of winning.
rules as far as we can tell. In one of your previous posts you said they had a rule to allow camping, from that we can infer that some don't and camping is outright banned. Meanwhile "normal" dbd has nothing to truly moderate any self imposed rules save the player's…conscience[?].
In this you reveal that you have never played competitive nor even watched or followed any of the DBD leagues.Here’s how it works: A team assigns a killer and faces the other team survivors, in that first set, the killer is aiming for the best possible result, being, killing every single survivor while having the most possible generators up. All 3 leagues allow face camping hook, survivors cannot free themselves even if they fill the anti camp meter.
99.9% of every game goes as follows: Killer gets into a chase, downs a survivor, looses 2 or 3 gens, camps the hook till at least second stage. Survivors go for rescue, they trade at hook; the killer slugs the rescuer and tunnels out the dead stage survivor.
Then well, it varies but the most common strategy is slugging till he has the chance to down the remaining 3 to get a 4k. Meh no?
Every single game where he cannot tunnel the dead hook survivor, the killer loses the game. (Unless he manages to slug all 4, which is an option reserved for 3 killers in the game, nurse, hillbilly or blight)
After, the other team killer plays to match the hook stages the first killer achieved.
Of course this is not the case of our regular gameplay, yet, it’s something that shows which are the most effective strategies to achieve the best possible result and diagnoses (granted, to a degree) the current state of the game.
Riot games does not balance LoL based on community feelings and “have fun protocols”, they evaluate the power of each champion based on their maximum possible performance.
Here the problem is that many times we end up balancing the game based on players feelings, so when one side plays to a decent capacity, the other side (killer) has a super tough time.
So now we ask the question: What could the devs possibly do? What could they change to make these theories gone? What reward could be worth more than a survivor "out" to the killer?
They could add an additional objective that provides a very heavy buff to either side, granting blood points. They could actually consider what happens when survivors utilize synergies with perks that make them unhookable. They could actually evaluate how long it takes to rush objectives if the players utilize every tool they get to do so. They could analyze the toxic strategies survivors can pull. They could actually take the time to balance killers and rework many of them that are simply weak. They could prevent slugging and tunneling by making the game a bit slower while granting small objectives that provide players blood points (like pumpkins) so players took a more “gentle” approach towards winning, since both sides are being rewarded by extending the game.We have no idea of the relevancy of this paragraph.
This is referring to the stats BH provided and the claims of the survivor community regarding killer strategies. If they patch perk an issue, might n or affect the strongest killers like it WILL affect the rest of the cast that is much weaker. So normally they change the meta with a macro change and then just shove a few seconds to certain killers thinking that’s a real buff, when a lot of times, is not enough. Why? Because getting into reworks, creating new abilities and such, is way harder than cranking some numbers. I am all for improvements, but responsable and well managed ones, not emotionally driven ones.Personally, being a Sadako main, would love some changes to the current meta, she doesn’t really fit haha.
I just want to “plant the seed” of: Sure, prevent slugging, prevent tunneling, but actually test out and give us something that leaves the game balanced.
The new perk, can potentially give a survivor 6 hook stages, allows them to choose who will handle the chases and paired with other perks, DS, OTR etc, would make (if survivors are playing to win in a decent skill level capacity) it imposible for the killer to win. So just test it out.
By the way, AI helped me with this, because every single time the 60-40 stat comes into conversation:
To calculate the killer's real chance of winning, we need to break down the probability of the killer eliminating at least 3 out of the 4 survivors, given that each survivor has a 40% escape chance, independently.
The probability of each survivor being killed is therefore:
P(kill)=1−0.4=0.6P(\text{kill}) = 1 - 0.4 = 0.6P(kill)=1−0.4=0.6
Using binomial probability, we can determine the chance that the killer will defeat exactly 3 or exactly 4 survivors out of 4.
So, the killer's real probability of winning each match is approximately 47.52%.
Despite each survivor having only a 40% chance to escape individually, the combined probabilities show that the killer wins (defeats at least 3 survivors) slightly less than half the time.
If you try to calculate the 4k, its lower even, because of Hatch, opening the door while killer closes hatch variables etc.
By the way, AI helped me with this, because every single time the 60-40 stat comes into conversation:
To calculate the killer's real chance of winning, we need to break down the probability of the killer eliminating at least 3 out of the 4 survivors, given that each survivor has a 40% escape chance, independently.
The probability of each survivor being killed is therefore:
P(kill)=1−0.4=0.6P(\text{kill}) = 1 - 0.4 = 0.6P(kill)=1−0.4=0.6
Using binomial probability, we can determine the chance that the killer will defeat exactly 3 or exactly 4 survivors out of 4.
So, the killer's real probability of winning each match is approximately 47.52%.
Please, just stop trying to manipulate the stats using "math".
At minimum, these are not independent variables, so the simple probability statistic is completely meaningless and doesn't apply.
Once one survivor dies, it's far, far easier to get more kills. That's just how the game works, but that isn't captured in this formula in any way.
We already have rough win rates from nightlight if nothing else. It's not exhaustive, and not representative of the entire player base, but we already know that, overall, killers get a 3k or 4k about 51% of the time (killer win), about 12% of games are 2k (draws), and survivors are winning with a 0k or 1k about 37% of the time. Those are the rough stats.
Further, these aren't predictive either: you can't try to guess the outcome of a match ahead of time with any accuracy, because there's too many variables and literal RNG.
A 60% kill rate is exactly that: 60% of survivors die. With the data we do have, the killer is winning 51% and survivors win about 37%. That's about as far as we can say anything.
Except that people try to manipulate statistics to show that this is somehow not killer sided. The devs have said exactly that, and it's by design.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837783#Comment_3837783
No disrespect but I mean isn’t all of this always an mmr discussion? If you play and win and win and win then yeah, you’re increasing your difficulty no?
So if you want to play easy mode but your mmr is in ultimate mode then you’re probably going to get stomped back down to hard mode. Again, if you want to play relaxed, well being in hard mode you’ll probably get stomped back down again to medium-hard mode. This keeps happening until your play style finds the 60% kr equilibrium.
Now if you are in low mmr like I am going for 8 hooks is more feasible. Running meme builds are also doable because Survivors at that low mmr often times give the killer free time by never being on gens.
If you sweat you get put with sweats. Though if you’re chill then eventually you’ll get put with all the cool players.
This.
But people generally don't want to listen because it also means killer in particular is largely a choose your difficulty role.
If you constantly sweat or play chill you're going to win about 60% of your games either way. It's just how hard do you want to work for it.
Most of the "MMR is bad" discussions come from wanting to have their cake and eat it too: they can play sweaty and win every game while their opponents never get any more challenging and always offer a "chill" (easy) game.
You see it most when there's a broken meta perk or strategy that boosts players way out of their skill level. Things like the slugging epidemic, hard tunneling, or gen kick meta take next to nothing to execute for easy wins... Until people boost their MMR, can't handle their opponents any more, and usually rage post on the forums about how the game needs to be changed again.
You might argue that a full 4-man SWF has a similar situation too. But in general solo survivor has too many wildcards just from teammates to pick your difficulty.