AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@OmegaXII said:
Funny. If high usage doesn't mean it's good and provides great value, why do people even bring it?
Fun fact: BHVR stated that the reason for nerfing all slowdown perks was because of high usage.
The last time they nerfed anything based on "usage rates" was 6.1.0 when they torched most of the meta perks.
All of the balance since then has been around kill rates, and most regression got nerfed because it was so overpowered killers were holding games hostage indefinitely with it.
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@Nazzzak said:
Because when they lose they need something to blame. They see WoO frequently so they assume that's the reason they lose. It's the same with all the popular survivor perks complained about. The devs can nerf WoO but there will be a new complained about perk not long after.
The devs can nerf WoO but there will be a new complained about perk not long after.
This this this.
In fact, there's been enough of a trend of "complain means devs nerf it and move onto the next" the past couple years that some people now feel entitled to these nerfs when they complain. We saw it most with MFT, with people being genuinely outraged that their complaint wasn't getting the perk deleted fast enough.
Other perks in this trend over the past couple years: DS, DH (twice), reassurance, circle of healing, prove thyself, MFT, scavenger, background player, Buckle up. Which is only the perks. This doesn't even include map nerfs, weaker tiles, endurance stacking, medkits, BNP, anti-gen-tap, locker grab lightborn, AFC nerfs, light burn removal, and probably several more I can't think of.
Not to say that some of these changes weren't warranted, that's not my point. But the biggest issue is that people now feel entitled to an instant nerf the second they complain.
And a lot of those complaints aren't valid, WoO is the case study for this.
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Pentimento blocks all the totems if the killer can manage to have all 5 totems relit at the same time.
This is generally fairly difficult to do, since it requires all 5 totems to be broken or cleansed first, and then none of the pentimento totems cleansed before the killer can relight all 5.
If you just remember where you cleansed your playing totem and go recleanse it when you see the first pentimento debuff you can counter this.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824531#Comment_3824531
I'd prefer to see WoO nerfed and a reversal of the deadzone map trend. In other words, a state where map sense and skill expression matter for both sides again..
Yeah... they're not going back on current tends in map design.
Best case is they keep nerfing maps into shoebox sized dead zones, and survivors still have a functional perk to find the one pallet in their quadrant of the map.
Worst case, they "listen to" the unreasonable whining about this perk and nerf it into oblivion, while also making maps into tiny dead zones.
This are really the only two options I see moving forward, unless something drastic changes at BHVR regarding map design.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824320#Comment_3824320
I believe the kill rates we received this year came after those changes. My only source of umbrage is that the kill rates don’t factor matches with a DC and I think hatch escapes.
Hatch escapes are counted as escapes in the kill rates. The only place hatch is treated differently is with MMR hatch counts as a "draw/neutral" match result.
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The "rulebooks" existed for both killers and survivors when the game launched. And the community was small enough it was generally self managing to prevent "rulebreaking" behavior.
Killers weren't supposed to block the only unhook spot (og face camping), not tunnel, not excessively slug, not bring the mori that didn't even require hooks (you died on first down).
Survivors, in turn, weren't supposed to run actual infinite loops, sabo hooks permanently, use the BNP that instantly completed any gen from 0.
If you notice, almost all of the "survivor rules" were deleted or made base kit so long ago that almost no one remembers they even existed. Meanwhile, after 8 years you can still camp hooks, just have to be 11m away. Oh no, the horror.
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If tunneling is running the game for you, you basically have 3 options:
- Run at least 2 anti tunnel perks every game, ideally OTR with DS. You can add DH if you really want, but it only works once with DS when you're being hard tunneled. This also doesn't prevent tunneling, you'll still be tunneled out, but it'll take longer. Oh, and you only get to play the game with at most half a build every match.
- Play killer.
- Play something other than DbD.
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@Jacknalls_Paw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822730#Comment_3822730
It should've been mentioned at least and I also don't know if this is the best way to balance maps honestly, especially with the latest experiments.
This has sadly been a trend in their rebalancing efforts: they tend to barely mention map changes of they mention them at all.
New, weaker tiles get added with no mention or they completely reworked (nerfed) tile weighting to put in more hills or dead zones instead of being able to tile chain.
Or it could just be a bug too. There are sometimes bugs with her maps that spawn too many times for a while until they fix it, so this could just be spawning too few.
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@fixblitzskin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822678#Comment_3822678
I agree hooking should be made great again. Perks like bbq, grim, pain, and pop have all been nerfed and even though not by much it sends a message overall that hooking is less desirable.
This is why I feel the "hooking isn't worth it" arguments are blown way out of proportion.
- BBQ: Last nerf was more than two years ago and they only removed the BP bonus (6.1.0). The most recent change was a buff to increase the aura read from 4 → 5 seconds in 7.1.0
- Grim was giga buffed in 7.1.0 to work on every token, not just after all 4 had been hooked and they increased the block duration at the 4th token. This was barely touched in 8.0 and they only reduced the first 3 tokens by 2s. This is still a massively buffed perk.
- Pop: they undid the buff from 20 → 30% in 7.0. Not mentioned in any of these discussions ever, is that they've also made 5% of the total gen progression base kit and stacks with pop. Pop is now objectively, mathematically better on gens under 50%, and strangely, wasn't "so bad we'll blow up the forums" before the buff that was reverted. We're also talking about, at most 5%, which is about 4.5 seconds at the best use case.
- Pain res: also giga buffed from 15% → 25% in 6.7.0 and they walked some, but not all, of that buff back in 8.0 to 20%. Again, this is, at best, about 4.5 seconds on one gen we're taking about here.
This isn't about the nerfs themselves, and stop trying to pose it as such. It's entirely because most killers in this forum can't handle the fact that they aren't inundated with buffs every single patch, and are outraged that any kind of change would ever be walked back, even slightly, and even if some of those perks are now partially *base kit* as compensation.
The inclusion of BBQ here shows just how much you're looking to be outraged. The perk hasn't changed in years, and all they did was remove BP.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822689#Comment_3822689
balance was literally never about one side getting constant buffs, while one is getting constant nerfs. +10s to hook timers was extremely unnecessary and unhealthy change, but average player will never understand it due to such a narrow mindset.
If you can't see that hooking in general is in extremely discouraged position rn, you don't actually even try to understand fundamental problems of the game
The 10 seconds does nothing unless the killer is tunneling and camping. Some players cannot fathom how "map pressure" works, and can only think in terms of those two strategies.
People can play how they want. If people really want to slug l excessively slug in large numbers then so be it. The devs will be forced to deal with that too once kill rates get out of control.
Calling me "average" and obliquely calling me stupid doesn't help your argument, not sure if dispute that what I said is absolutely true of a subgroup of killers.
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People will claim this is due to "regression nerfs" or survivor buffs, but I'm reality it's a subgroup of killer players having a tantrum.
The last regression changes were 6 months ago. That's just an excuse and anyone using that to excessively slug survivors in matches is being disingenuous.
No, the only change that's happened to start this "trend" was the extra 10 seconds of hook timer they added in the recent patch. There were several posts of people melting down over this change, and some of them are slugging every game in protest.
Apparently 60-70% kill rates aren't enough for some people, and the "buff me, nerf them" subgroup can't seem to understand why "balance" in a PVP game doesn't just mean constant killer buffs and permanent survivor nerfs every single patch. Given that people review bombed the game, flamed on social media, and have been taking about slugging being the new "only way to play" I'm not exaggerating. Since people are just that petty and entitled apparently.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822485#Comment_3822485
Do you understand how irrational this is?
I'm not sure why you feel this is irrational.
"If the cards are dealt and I lose, then so be it, but if I find that someone is stacking the deck in their favor I walk away from the table" seems like a perfectly reasonable stance for someone looking to play a fair game.
I generally agree that the offering screen should be skipped to prevent this kind of thing, and dodging in general isn't a good practice. But the main reason people do is that either a map offering or mori probably means at least one player is going to be sweating like there's money on the line.
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It's people who haven't figured out that the most valuable resources for survivor are health states and hook stages.
This usually isn't people being greedy though. With no communication, solo queue can only have a chance at surviving if only one person goes for the save. If one person is on hook, one in chase and the third isn't on a gen, I'm gonna be gen jockey and have to assume the other guy has the rescue. No reason to give free pressure to the killer and pull everyone off of gens for no reason. And if the guy not on gens isn't going for rescue he's doing it wrong.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819791#Comment_3819791
Flashbang: killer brings lightborn, now survivor had a dead perk slot and wasted time following the killer for a flashbang
having to bring perk B to counter perk A because there is no basic gameplay counter to perk A literally means perk A is problematic and needs to be tweaked.
Plot Twist + DS: ignore the unhooked survivor and suddenly they have 1 dead perk slot and 1 perk slot to do something they could do faster with a med kit and no perk slot wasted.
1. Anti-tunneling perks are NOT ONLY USED AS A COUNTER TO TUNNELING. Both their defensive and offensive way of usage are highly effective, and if killer doesn't chase you after you've been unhooked, that does NOT mean you wasted perk slots.
2. "and one perk slot to do something they could do faster with a med kit and no perk slot wasted"...what even is this take? People using these builds literally always bring medkits too and they will literally have 2 completely free self resets and will cancel killer's pressure + lead to lose-lose situations easily. Bringing a syringe additionally brings even higher overkill.
One thing can definitely noticed. Majority of this game's playerbase has not even a close idea of how many stuff they can use is powerful because those perks are locked behind a higher skill floor than other "simpler" perks. That's why huge chunk of the strongest survivors perks and strategies are the ones extremely slept on by an average survivor player, or it depends on region (many EU players are very well aware of powers of these, while e.g. many NA players don't have even a close idea of how strong they are)
having to bring perk B to counter perk A because there is no basic gameplay counter to perk A literally means perk A is problematic and needs to be tweaked.
This is literally describing why distortion exists at all, because the only "base kit" aura blocking is to be in a locker. And, well, nearly everything killers can do has at least one perk that reveals auras now, so you'd have to spend the entire match in a locker to counter them.
And distortion is receiving the nerf. So far, aura reading keeps getting added to more perks.
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We tried this in 2v8 and it didn't do anything to deter tunneling. You can pretty easily figure out where the cage is going to spawn and just go straight for it. Which is what happened in even a limited time mode.
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Are you sure you want to play a pvp game? I feel like there are plenty of pve games you could enjoy where your opponent has no agency or control over the outcome.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818892#Comment_3818892
Thinking that Freddy needs nerfs is…certainly one of the ideas of all time, I'll give you that.
@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818892#Comment_3818892
While I agree with you position regarding SM, saying freddy and sadako need nerfs is a lmao moment for sure.
So, in your opinion, the official stats are somehow not over performing devs goal of 60% kill rate? The data is literally right there. Denying those facts is the textbook definition of delusion.
If so-called M1 "weak" killers are consistently able to blow that metric out of the water, and they've been near the top for at least a year or two now, are you saying they need buffs? By what basis?
ETA: you're both missing the obvious conclusion that's also the same as SM here. These killers need reworked.
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@Senile_Grandpa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818529#Comment_3818529
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818641#Comment_3818641
Nerf Freddy and Sadako too then
Reply now.
Nerf pig.
If the devs goal is 60% kill rate, then those killers are objectively overperforming. So if the devs are actually wanting to maintain balance they would find a way to reduce that performance, yes.
I'm not sure why you think this is some kind of slam dunk argument when you provided the official stats that support this conclusion.
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This is considered holding hostage and is against game rules. Report the killer when this happens.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811967#Comment_3811967
And nothing has been done to counteract this. Survivors en masse could just hide all match, and killers wouldn't be able to do anything except rely on blind luck of finding them. You will never see the devs allowing even the potential of that kind of game stall from the killer's end.
Gen kick and 3 gen metas were alive and kicking for a full year. Where the killer meta was holding games hostage until the game closed.
Distortion and hiding play style has never been meta. It's popular with a small subgroup, and not something everyone does. You'd have to have a full 4 man swf of players doing this to have this argument work, and even then it relies on both luck of not being found on top of the killer having zero game sense, since you can typically figure out right where survivors spawn. Oh, and a stealth killer hard counters this as well.
Killers always have someone to chase in each match.
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@Bookern said:
i think mass groups of SM players should go next in matches to drop that killrate
Kill rates do not include any game with a disconnect.
And they've already given us stats that only 3% of her kill rate includes games with anyone dying on their first hook.
This killer has a 68% kill rate naturally, not counting disconnects or deaths on first hook, and people still somehow think she needs nothing but buffs and not a complete rework.
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What resources? Each quarter of the map is a dead zone with a single pallet held up by toothpicks in modern map design, and you have to drop your item in the corner to prevent it from being permanent wall hacks for the killer instead of useful to you once.
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The devs ultimately decide. And them targeting face camping is a pretty big indicator that they don't want people standing at the hook doing nothing. That's why I don't call it "game play", the killer is just spectating at that point, and the devs seem to agree that it isn't engaging for anyone in the match.
As for 3 genning for extreme amounts of time, such as holding the game hostage until the match ends at an hour, that is actually against the game rules, so you're just simply wrong there.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810101#Comment_3810101
Ironic when its survivors constantly compensated for playing badly, while killers are actively punished by game mechanics for playing "properly". As usual its a rule for ye and not for me mentality. Going by your own logic i guess we can remove all your buffs and second chance perks and demand you play properly and learn to play without hand holding? Seems only fair.
Playing properly?
They targeted camping and holding games hostage with a 3 gen. Camping is just staring at furniture and is barely considered "playing" since you can basically do that afk, and holding a 3 gen until the match closed is against game rules, so isn't "proper" in any way.
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Why is it surprising to see the same perks every game?
If survivors complain here the first response is almost always something like:
If you don't want to be slugged, it's your fault for not running unbreakable.
If you don't want to be tunneled, it's your fault for not running DS and OTR.
If you don't want to be camped, it's your fault for not running kindred and reassurance.
Then we get posts like this complaining that people run the same things every game.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3809039#Comment_3809039
Thing is though people have been trying to get across that kills != skill for ages and this statistic does support that argument. If you consider how games play out around around gate, kill rate doesnt tell the real picture, the killer MUST HAVE failed to defend gate for 2 or more to escape...
To try and explain, assuming the 60% killrate gives a 50% win rate for killer, that means 50% of the time 2, 3 or 4 survivors are winning (or in other words, the gate must have been opened and those survivors escaped). The other 50% of the time 0 or 1 survivors are winning... and more often than not the 1 survivor escape is from getting hatch or the hatch close into gate (the gate is almost never successfully opened in a 1 man escape via gen repairs).
If you look at the gates being powered and opened as the primary win con for both sides, then this 60% kill rate does make a lot more sense... I'm sure you would agree the bulk of a killers win rate doesn't (and shouldn't) come from the end game scramble... what usually decides how many survivors live and die is whether (and when) the gate gets opened or not.
It's pretty definitive that if the killer manages to prevent the gate from being opened, that is undeniably a killer win. If the gate is opened the killer might have still been able to get the 4k... but more often than not it's a scramble at the end and the game can swing wildly between a 0k and a 4k depending on perks and mistakes on either side... is it fair to say for the killer to win, the killer has to rely more on scrambles in end game? If a Bubba turns a 2 hook 0k into a 3k cause of a survivor blunder vs. NOED, do we say Bubba won that game? Or do we say he got lucky/is crap?
Whether gate opens or not makes sense as the definitive divide between wins/losses. End game is a crazy crap shoot, and if we make the killrate lower at 50%, thus making the win rate 40%, the killer is in an end game scramble more often, and the survivors are completing their primary objective 60% of the time.
Looking at these numbers, it looks to me like the kill rate should be maybe 55% or so... but does that argument at least make sense?
I've had this discussion with someone else before, and similarly you're only looking at the killer side of things here.
For example, you're really just saying that a 2k is a loss here, using a lot more words. You aren't arguing about wins, because clearly it doesn't matter if the gens get done (or gates are powered) if the killer still gets a win with a 3k or 4k. Which is a possibility for the killer, especially with things like blood Warden or noed. (You can't win as the survivor team without completing all of the gens though)
So we're switching to a 'killer didn't win scenario'. Which is exactly what I was saying before: the 50% win rate does not mean survivors are winning the other 50%. That's effectively what you're saying here though.
I'll just limit it to the 2k/draw scenario. In your argument the doors are powered, so the killer somehow loses. The survivors didn't escape as a team, so they lose as a team (which is why the devs use kills and not win/loss btw).
But in a draw, it's a close game for both sides. Survivors might've won if they got lucky or played a bit differently. Alternately, the killer could've gotten a 3k and won if they got lucky or played a bit differently. You can't just say "well it was a stomp because the gens are done". The gens aren't the killer's objective.
And I'm ignoring your underlying implication that the game is 1v1v1v1v1 here too. We're taking about teams on both sides, only that the killer team has one player (usually). Trying to imply that "the survivor who got hatch won" isn't the point of this post, and completely misses the mark.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3809488#Comment_3809488
4% is nothing you see no difference with normal speed. Basically survivors can ignore uroboros all game and looping killer with almost unnoticable hindered effect and instadown that almost never work.
Interesting.
Because somehow we heard for months that a 3% permanent and free change in move speed was absolutely broken and game breaking.
This is some amazing mental gymnastics.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3809445#Comment_3809445
No, dude. You have so many good things to use as anti-slug. Unbreakable has always been there, if not for the self-pickup then for the quicker recovery speed. Boon Exponential, though rare, is like Unbreakable for the whole team. Plot Twist forces the killer to pick you up, because if not then you get healed straight to full. Knockout, the killer has to hope it's not a SWF, even a 2-man, or else their game plan is ruined. Same thing with the Third Seal totem being found. I really don't want something to be done about slugging, because it's gonna be overkill and it's gonna be something that's used offensively instead of defensively, exactly as what happened with base BT. Everything seems to be encroaching on how the killer's allowed to play, giving them an ever-expanding list of stuff to worry about, not even just the perks but the base mechanics.
The pendulum of killer complaints always swings from "jUsT BrInG ThE PeRkS" to counter camping, tunneling, slugging, terrible map RNG, or even anti loop on one extreme, to "nerf the survivor meta, why are people bringing DS, Unbreakable, Reassurance, and OTR every game, nerf everything!" On the other extreme.
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The only problem here is that this isn't a complete picture. For example, even a 50% killer win rate does not in any way mean that survivors are winning the other 50%.
Survivors are getting a win (0-1k) about 35% of the time. So this isn't capturing draws, nor is it indicating that killers are still winning considerably more than survivors on average.
People are reading 50% win rate and assuming that it's 50/50, and it's not.
On the top end, the higher kill rate killers are winning twice as often as the survivors they face, and that's actually a problem for a PVP game.
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@KatsuhxP said:
I mean they aren't there for the killer but for the survivors as a little help at least, so I don't think that's a valid argument.
We could talk over ending the game as win as soon as there are 4 bots, thats really weird that that's even possible xD
The bots are also there for the killer.
Before bots were added for disconnects, killers complained about not triggering perks like pain res and blood Warden because survivors would DC on the way to the hook and deny the perk.
That doesn't happen anymore, so those perks still provide value for the killer in those situations.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806492#Comment_3806492
3-gens weren't holding the game hostage. Survivors' lack of skill and team play were holding games hostage. Do the 2 furthest gens, shift W when the killer comes anywhere near, and don't get hooked near the 3-gen. That's all you had to do. Now there's a handholding mechanic with gen blockage because, "the killer kicked the gen too many times."
Killers holding a 3 gen as a strategy, without downing or hooking anyone for an extended time is holding the game hostage.
The classic "chess merchant" was a perfect example of how people played the "3 gen meta" and totally fits how the devs describe a hostage situation from the killer.
Here's the receipt:
@Peanits said:
If they are making no attempt to down anyone and purely stalling the game by keeping everyone in madness 3, only downing and slugging them if they refuse to move, that would be considered holding the game hostage. We would need to see that they are doing this for a long time, though, not just a couple minutes. The 3 gen strat on its own is not bannable, it only become an issue when it's being used to grief instead of win.
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@Backmon said:
i think there is 2 main reasons why killers start bring knock out more often. 1st both pop and pain res that requied hook being gutted in to unusable lever so there is no reward or motivation of hooking survivor and second 10 more sec on hook stage
The last time either of these perks were touched at all was 8.0.0 back in May. Waiting 4 months to "protest" seems a huge stretch.
Both of these perks are far from "unusable", and with the 5% of maximum they added base kit, pop is actually better than it was before 7.1.0.
These are just excuses for people to play in ways to intentionally make the other side miserable. If it is actually a movement to get the devs to change their mind, that's just abhorrent behavior.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3807705#Comment_3807705
Im still not sure how any people are to blame for "ruining" the game by simply playing the game. the killers objective is to kill the survivors before they escape. The survivors objective is to escape before they are killed. If people feel the game is "ruined" by these tactics then maybe the game isn't for you? I see a lot of complaints saying it's not fun for a survivor to be tunneled out .. just admit that you don't enjoy being a survivor. At least then you can make changes yourself to better things instead of relying on other people to change because you not having fun.
Changes you can make yourself include, learning to counter these tactics you find boring so you stay in the game longer and have fun, or changing to killer side? Survivor isn't for everyone so maybe you would have more fun as a killer instead. Or play a different game. No one forcing anyone to play the game and if you don't like how people play it then play a game that you enjoy more.
Killers also complain incessantly about survivors doing gens. That's literally their only way to win the game as a team. That is the reason behind many of the nerfs over the past few years as well, and it's arguably exactly "ruining the game by playing the game" in your own words.
Survivor gameplay isn't meant to be only one thing, and that's where a lot of common complaints come from. You're supposed to spend time doing different things: doing gens, being in chase, going for rescue, healing/being healed, interact with the killers power (box/traps/etc), tome challenges, stealth, maybe even totems.
The only feedback the game gives you for match performance is blood points. And it feels insanely punishing and demoralizing to finish a match with 5-6k BP (or less) because you get tunneled out. That's the killers decision, but you don't get to have "diverse" gameplay. You get chase and that's it. Can't even go get the syringe to clear the T-virus.
And the game literally tells you that wasn't enough, you didn't do enough, maybe didn't finish your challenge, and better luck next time. And when that's every game the "diverse gameplay" gets boiled down to "you're just killer fodder for no reward" that's not good, rewarding gameplay at all.
So yeah, people are going to complain that the "optimal strategy" for the killer isn't fun, and the devs should look into fixing that. Because that's where the only solution can be found.
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@Garboface said:
definitely agree on the first part but also killers have no guarantee against gen rush either. also, i have noticed my perks are level one on a level 10 survivor i just played.
so, it will be good a couple days and it is still fun in the absence of gen rush and tunneling but getting a sense of deja vu.
The big difference here is that gen rush is effectively impossible without a build for it. If you don't have toolboxes or stacked multiple perks, you're not "rushing" anything. It's also countered by pressure.
Camping and tunneling is base kit for killers. You can camp and tunnel with any killer and any build at any time. And the only real counter is perks that survivors have to be lucky to roll.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806974#Comment_3806974
This could happen if survivors hadn't complained and gotten Hit and Run nerfed
I'm sorry, what?
They deleted circle, nerfed medkit, and gave an aura perk nearly every patch for two years. Not to mention the new distortion nerf that means you know basically where everyone is at all times.
Every single one of those was a nerf because of killer complaining, and the healing needs were specifically for hit and run.
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@fussy said:
Average chase in this game is above 1 min, wdym? If you can't chase 5 gens anymore, it doesn't mean there is no looping.
Average chase time per match, not average chase time per chase.
So a survivor who is killed in 3 hook stages is getting an average of about 20 seconds of chase before being downed.
And 1 minute of chase time per match isn't even one gen.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806357#Comment_3806357
I’m merely sharing that when killers didn’t need to use slowdown perks at all, what they did was stack the most powerful slowdown perks to make games grueling for survivors. The kill rates were so affected that BHVR almost immediately took a sledgehammer to several slowdown perks and buffed areas of survivor gameplay just to rebalance things. No one here talks about it much anymore (on the killer side anyway) but I’m sure BHVR devs remember and want to avoid that situation again.
I agree with everything except the "almost immediately" part.
Cobruption was meta for at least 8 months before they touched the first perk (Eruption). Even after that, it took nerfs to call of brine, overcharge, the first skull merchant rework, and adding the regression limit mechanic to finally kill off the 3-gen meta of holding games hostage.
Between the gen kick meta and the 3 gen meta, it took them about a year. That's hardly "immediately".
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We just finally got them to remove one of the main reasons people lobby dodge. We shouldn't be looking to deliberately add another reason.
Every single one of these posts focuses on the symptom, not the core problem. Disconnects and giving up on hook are just symptoms of the game health not being in a good place. Sure, there are always petty people who will give up at the sound of the wind, but that's always been the case.
The reason so many people are having this issue now isn't that people have suddenly become more petty. It's a game health issue.
For example, the survivor found first is generally going to not get to play that match.
Did they have a long first chase? Well, the killer should tunnel since they only have progress toward one person.
Was the first chase short? Well, the killer should tunnel because they found the weak link and can get someone out easily for the win.
See the problem here? If you get found first, you don't get to play the game. If every avenue leads to "tunneling is the best option, always" then why is it so surprising that survivors who get found first, and presumably would like to actually play the game, decide that's the time to go next?
This isn't to excuse the behavior, but if we are drawn to trying to fix it with "punish them" in various ways, were not going to touch on literally any of the actual reasons this is happening in the first place.
The main thing people don't want to hear, is that 60% kill rate is probably too high. We know 72% is, and that killer likely has the highest giving up rate of the roster.
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The pharmacy nerf in 6.1.0 was confusing at best. Like you said, this perk has been hit directly and indirectly several times, and already suffers from the fact that chests are largely a waste of time.
Forcing you to waste time while injured makes this borderline a killer perk at this point. Unfortunately I don't think this is on their radar, since even the player base seems to forget this perk exists.
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There are already two perks that damage gens on a down: Surge/Jolt and Eruption.
Hooked survivors also still need to be rescued, this is not a good justification for slugging everyone every game.
We don't need anything else that encourages excessive slugging in the game. If you truly want the game to be fun for survivors too, you want less slugging, not more of it.
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This doesn't really incentivize healthy gameplay.
The killer isn't being rewarded for completing their objective of injuring, downing, and hooking survivors. In fact, to use phrasing from the forums here: killers are "heavily punished" for hitting anyone by losing stacks.
So here's how players will use this perk: chase a survivor for up to a minute, then go body block your single pentimento totem. You have 183 second gens that have literally no counter for survivors except checks notes give the killer free hits and don't run away. Remember the pinhead "stand on the box and grief players" build? This is that, but for every killer in perk form if people want to now.
At least there's anti-synergy with thana, but if someone came up with a face the darkness build it something you could be looking at even longer since all of these slowdowns stack, up to 235 seconds per gen if stars align. And, again, this doesn't trigger on hook or death, so the killer doesn't have to progress their objective for this, and there's nothing survivors can do to remove it.
It's like an effectively free pentimento that can't be cleansed. So no.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803785#Comment_3803785
If you slug all 4 survivors you've won. It's a win condition like Hooking all Survivors. And eschews the need to carry survivors to hook or hook them multiple times. And survivors conveniently can't immediately perform "unhooks" because the other survivor needs to recover.
Sometimes fun to see if you can do it: Healing reduction perks, Instadown perks/Killer, with a Killer you're decent at. Just keep slugging and repeatedly slugging and circling back to slugged survivors to check if they're being "rescued" from slug.
Remember doing it myself with Ghostie couple years back. I'm certainly not too skilled, so the survivors I faced weren't able to counter it well.
Yes, and there's literally no one to unhook them if all 4 are down. So hook them and end the game faster.
The only reason not to is toxic behavior. It's either spite, pettiness, or a power trip to just bleed out 4 people.
Letting survivors speed up bleeding out doesn't in any way change that the killer won the game. It just limits the toxicity and hastens the end of the game.
There's zero reason not to include this feature.
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Base kit unbreakable has always been a terrible idea.
Slugging is unfortunately sometimes necessary, but excessive slugging isn't. There's zero reason to slug all 4 survivors until bleed out, for example.
Just allow survivors who have been slugged until the "find help" stage to let go on the ground and go next.
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@nam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3801515#Comment_3801515
The proof is here, in those videos killer get 4k just cause surv are not playing in the right way, in the video, the total chasing time is 73s, and game ends less than 5min, how can the killer slow gens down with only 2 hooks? How can the killer be faster with these pallets and accelerate perks?
One match is a data point, not indicative of a trend.
This is also on the game, which I assume someone probably brought an offering for. So survivors bringing an offering, planning to gen rush with toolboxes, and likely just pre dropping every pallet on the map is how they did this. You know what that is? Comp DbD.
The current world record for the game being over is a killer getting a 4k in about 90 seconds. Should we use that one game as rock solid proof that the game is absolutely killer sided if played correctly?
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@LadyOwO said:
Keep in mind that DC's inflates kill rates so I doubt they will getting nerfs. Plus it's not like Pinhead is in almost every game so....
Every kill rate BHVR uses for stats completely discards any games with a disconnect. They aren't even included in their calculations.
Which means that the kill rates that players experience are largely going to be higher than the kill rates BHVR publishes, especially if disconnects against certain killers are more common.
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800057#Comment_3800057
note on the ´´combined throughout the entire match´´
Sure, and the easiest way to break that 35s barrier is to leave one person slugged and look for the last survivor.
You're bound to have other situations where survivors are slugged, sure, but that's why most of them aren't for very long. If all the reasons killers would want to slug multiple times per match, slugging for the 4k is going to be far, far more often than having something like a boil over or sabo squad.
These stats very clearly say that under 'normal' gameplay, survivors aren't going to be slugged for long. It's the outlier situations, like those I mentioned, that cause extended slugging.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3800563#Comment_3800563
Given that the intention of these changes is to alleviate the frustration of playing against her in the meantime until her rework, I don't see them caving to any demands.
They may or may not make the changes.
But the community believes that posting early and as often as possible is an effective way to get the devs to change their mind. In the past, the outcry has correlated with BHVR going back on changes or changing things outright enough times that people will continue to post constantly in the hopes that the perceived trend continues.
I'm just trying to explain why we're seeing 20 posts a day on the same thing, instead of one long thread on the topic.
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@dwight444 said:
how many threads do we need on this
just reply to one of the threads already on the first page
No no, you see...
If you spam the forums the devs might reconsider the nerf. It isn't yet live, so screaming early and as often as possible has (unfortunately) been shown to be the most effective way to
manipulateencourage the devs to change their mind. -
@For_The_People said:
@HerInfernalMajesty @AmpersandUnderscore @KatsuhxP
Thank you all for your replies - I totally agree and understand all your comments. The concept of ‘FairPlay’ and a ‘crossing’ of it can understandably justify retribution (not saying I would personally do so but I can understand as a concept).
What dismays me is that there are these tools on one side to ‘punish’ the other but not the other way round. You could of course say ‘well become a great looper and show a toxic killer what’s what!’ Or ‘use x,y,z perk or strategy’, but for the average soloQ survivor, this may be easier said than done.
The issue is that a killer who perceives a slight or insult for any of the reasons above (or even just to be intentionally griefing) and wants to punish one or all, they have at the very base, a set of tools to do so. Whether to all or at least one (in most cases).For a survivor, how would they ‘punish’ a killer for stuff they don’t like? (Other than bm-ing which is just going to perpetuate the cycle of hate; and of course, having the supreme skill and right perk choices to counteract - but even then for how long? If someone wants to slug or tunnel you out, they will).
The issue is that a killer who perceives a slight or insult for any of the reasons above (or even just to be intentionally griefing) and wants to punish one or all, they have at the very base, a set of tools to do so.
Yup, completely agree.
And the other issue is that the counter to those punishments, if a counter exists at all, is a perk. So if you don't bring unbreakable and get slugged, other toxic players in the community will just throw out the "JuSt BrInG tHe PeRk" as though running Reassurance, Unbreakable, OTR, DS, and an exhaustion perk is even possible, let alone viable.
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Forever Freddy? I mean I suppose if you consider spending half the game trying to wake up or do literally everything at half speed an "easy counter" then ok.
Skully was also not healthy for the game on launch, which was exponentially amplified by regression perks.
I'm not sure why Sadako is in your list, since the biggest reason for her first rework was that survivors never had to interact with her power in like 95% of circumstances. Ignore TV's was meta, and that was a killer complaint.
You can be upset that the rework isn't good, that's fine. But let's not pretend that the old version of these killers was good or healthy either.