AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837680#Comment_3837680
So, again, to be clear:
This streamer lost because real, actual genrush builds like the one in this video are extremely unbalanced.
Separately, this streamer wouldn't have done well otherwise because his build was an extremely lopsided gimmick and he actively avoided pressuring survivors.
The first part is the part the really matters, the second part is an important thing to keep in mind when thinking about what videos to use as evidence for a claim.
This video illustrates absolutely nothing about gen defence or killer builds in general. It illustrates that genrush builds are broken. We can also use it as a springboard for discussion about what a good killer build looks like without gen defence, because what this streamer has is Not That At All, but that's separate to what the video itself actually shows.
They should have implemented a hard cap on progression and regression speeds years ago (and move speed, vault speed, etc).
Stacking effects is generally a problem in this game for both killers and survivors when taken to this extreme. But having a maximum cap to charges per second that can be gained or lost would fix this without really affecting players who aren't stacking this kind of build. One toolbox in a game isn't game breaking, for example, but 3 used on one gen can be.
Now, how they communicate in game to the player that they're hitting a cap is something they'd have to work out. Otherwise you have to just do math and check a wiki or something with no in game feedback that the mechanic even exists.
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@Jock21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837466#Comment_3837466
You can't almost never win a slightly above average killer main with a team running full gen speed builds ? To me that sounds like an under average survivor main problem.
Every single time the shoe is on the other foot we hear these exact same things:
- If the other team is playing to win and you aren't, don't expect to win.
- These are the strategies that are used in comp DbD, you may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.
- There are LiTeRaLlY tOnS oF pErKs that defend against this play style, if you didn't bring any of them, that's on you.
That's literally what is said in every. Single. Thread. About camping, tunneling, or slugging.
Could the killer have played better? Absolutely. The other team wanted the win more than a meme game. At least he got a fast match in return. Slugging to bleed out is 4 minutes alone, and only requires one petty person to have a bad day.
Go next, move on and you won't see a squad like this for months.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837295#Comment_3837295
I was there, and I struggled. Had I had the experience I have now, I would have done better. There have been better candidates for Year of the Survivor, like the one with non-stop killer nerfs to Wraith, Deathslinger, Nemesis, Twins, etc. But the game's current direction is "Let's nerf killers and buff survivors until the uncarryable solos can win." Except, they still lose. The plan has failed, but they're still going with it. And it feels like people are deluding themselves into thinking that killers nerfs are good. Take one of the killers right now, who you can't imagine being nerfed because of how mid they are, and nerf them, and suddenly you'll see people, "Oh yeah, that was long overdue." The name of the game is groupthink.
This kind of attitude is just sad.
It's one thing to disregard the actual facts of what the devs have been doing for the past two years at least, but it feels like you're also gaslighting yourself into thinking this way.
You're in nearly every thread, complaining about anything you can find. Base kit buffs across the board for a ton of killers in most every recent patch and you go searching for the .2 seconds nerf to be outraged about.
You're looking to be angry. And anything short of incessant killer buffs and constant survivor nerfs is somehow just unacceptable.
It's not about balance, likely never has been. You seem to think that death garden is the goal: where the killer role should just be completely unstoppable to a degree that it kills the game entirely.
It's a level of entitlement and lack of awareness of reality that is too often found in this forum to begin with, but somehow taken even further.
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@Atom7k said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837017#Comment_3837017
Almost sounds like facing a sweaty swf squad is no fun … I wonder why.
Nah for real OP is on to something. The difference communication makes is quite big the official stats show that too. However this game is not easy to balance but that is mostly because bhvr as a dev company is not very good and keeps tripping over itselfEvery time this comes up, the same counter argument destroys this line of thinking:
Why not let survivors see the killer? If the only concern is that people don't want to play against a sweaty team, then let's just show the Blight/Nurse right in the lobby and let them decide?
Because it's a terrible idea, and those players would just likely never get a match because of it. That's why.
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@Vishlumbra said:
It’s been my impression, that as someone replied, most player base seem to play survivor and don’t have experience as killers.
In countless occasions I been clear in not making this debate killers vs survivors. I am not trying to nerf survivors nor I’m trying to buff killers, I’m saying that if the company decides to attend slugging, camping and tunneling, they also have to address the current state of things.
Strategies emerge after countless of tries, practice and effort, currently, with the perks, objectives needed to escape and skill level of players, killers have to sometimes utilize these tactics to win, specially against good groups.
Like I previously said, no one that mains killer sits at home and decides that he is going to destroy the survivor experience by utilizing tactics that the community defines as toxic. You get what you can and you adapt during game.
If I get into my first chase and after the first hit two gens pop, I need to do something to try to win. If by the time I get a hook they need only 2 gens I might need to slug one or at least keep an eye on hook to at least trade. Im not promoting slugging or camping or tunneling, hell, as you can see by my avatar, I main Sadako, one of the weaker killers that’s has the redeeming factor of not needing to get into chases all the time nor camp on hook.
I mentioned competitive as an example to at least inspire a little bit of empathy towards the other side of things, you might feel bad if you get tunneled or slugged but, that coin has another side, which is another person that is also trying to enjoy his gameplay and aim to win.
I think that there are ways to solve these issues, but I rather leave the game as it is, because “buffs” consist in crunching numbers instead of visiting actual issues with the current state of perks, gens and killers.Just look what they did with this update.
Btw the argument of stats that favor Killers 60/40 has a lot of variables and facts you need to consider.
Every survivor in trial has a 40% chance of escaping. The killer, to win the game, needs to beat those 40% odds, three times (to actually manage a 3k).
Also survivors can be crunched together because they are basically re skins. Killers are not created equal, there are clear strong and weak killers yet the stats puts them in the same bowl.
So basically there’s a chance that for example, Dracula win rate is carrying Trapper, so on.Every survivor in trial has a 40% chance of escaping. The killer, to win the game, needs to beat those 40% odds, three times (to actually manage a 3k).
No. This is just terrible "forums math" yet again. These are not statistically independent events. Once one survivor dies, the chances of other survivors escaping drops tremendously.
The killer does not need to "best those odds" multiple times. This isn't even a random chance either, since there are humans actively trying to influence the outcome. Skill, teamwork, map RNG, and a host of factors go into it, and not just some percentage.
And even with all that, once the first survivor dies, the other kills get vastly easier.
@Vishlumbra said:
Win by behavior definition is 3 kills at least. That will rise your MMR, 2 keeps it as it is and 1 or none is a lost game. That’s not a community definition, it’s how the game and developers handle your MMR.
Also you completely disregarded a big point, that is that the stats are not considering the diverse powers and playstyle of each killer. Facing a Trapper is not the same as facing a Nurse, yet the stats are mixed together.I have tried to come to a middle ground where all I am asking is that if a lot of people regard slugging and camping and tunneling as toxic, we should also be able to question why those strategies exist in the first place and by consequence, attend both sides equally. If they disappear completely, a few changes would have to be implemented so killers stay roughly with the same power they have today.
The worrying part is that balance ain’t happening fairly, the developers consider a buff chopping a second from an ability, where there are killers that requiere a deeper look to actually leave the bottom tier.
But well, I am done with this topic, I think there’s a few good points made but what I learned is that there’s no middle ground, is either you all win and completely intend to disregard absolutely everything I say or you won’t feel good. Kinda like survivors do. Peace.
But well, I am done with this topic, I think there’s a few good points made but what I learned is that there’s no middle ground, is either you all win and completely intend to disregard absolutely everything I say
You're entitled
to your opinion, of course, but you've said things in this post from the very beginning that make several things clear:
You likely haven't played many, if any survivor games. This isn't a contrast of different experiences you've had, you just want your killer games to be easier, and any obstacle to face rolling to victory appears to be considered "wildly imbalanced" for some reason.
Your game knowledge is either completely wrong, or wildly out of date. You actively complain about things that were nerfed already, and many of those having been nerfed or changed years ago. So that alone makes it sound like you're arguing for changes to 2018 DbD, which already doesn't exist anymore.
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@kapkeik_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836260#Comment_3836260
flashlights/sabotage/pallet stuns/a dozen of survivors perks that activates by hooking or unhooking/it’s time consuming
He said pickup, not hooking. So like 3 things total, and we're having a tantrum. Got it.
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So many mechanics?
You mean like DS, which only activates if you're actively tunneling.
Or I guess you could count flip flop/power struggle, but are we seriously complaining about this combo now?
And...
Wait, that's it. That's literally all that even activates on killer pickup. The horror. Such a massive, exhaustive list that would keep anyone up at night.
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Killers have at least two base kit ways of handling this:
You can just ignore it and farm BP around the map. Survivors will leave our the timer will expire, but you didn't have to do anything other than get extra time for free BP.
Or, you can force them out with any killer. And you might even force an error where you get an extra kill or two, depending on how or which killer you're playing.
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@Vishlumbra said:
The best killer in the world, let’s say Zaka for example, on equal ground has to:
Chase 1 survivor for 2 minutes or so to get a hook, in the meantime he lost 2 gens and about to lose a third one. He has to camp the hook till at least second stage, survivors move to rescue, he slugs one if he is lucky and he has to go into chase again, he finally kills one, and by that time there’s 1 (very rarely 2 gens up) and you are talking about the best killer player in the world. Mind you, with the advantage of not allowing a survivor to unhook himself. He then has to slug till he gets a chance to win or lose the match. That’s 90% of every competitive game.
That sounds like a core design fault killer biased?You're basically saying that, played correctly, you can win as killer.
In these competitive tournaments, killers are still winning about 60% of the time.
And before we even touch on "but comp has limits", there are absolutely tournaments that have no restrictions, and killers are still on top. The numbers here do not support this narrative you're pushing that killer is the weakest role somehow.
Killers win streaks are also insanely high. "Weak, M1 killers" like trapper or clown have win streaks around 280 for trapper, and clown was about 800 iirc. Blight has the record of almost 2000 games. You know what the win streak is for survivor? Maybe 200 iirc. That's a full, 4-man, comp team SWF trying to win every game with every tool available to them.
Survivor SWF isn't some unbeatable, impossible challenge for killers. This post reads like it's 2020 (seriously, keys? They removed that like 2 years ago).
If you really think that survivor is impossible to lose, go play it. Post your vod of your win streak where you can't ever lose a match.
I won't wait.
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The game is incredibly survivor sided
Hatch, unbreakable, keys, doors, adrenaline.
What year is this?
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835101#Comment_3835101
I don't think the game balance enough to go for 8 hooks before a kill. As killer who don't tunnel much i still need someone dead around 6 hooks
This perk will easily be meta so every game u will be going through nearly max hook states before a kill. someone dead when the killer have 3 hooks total is terrible and i love the fax this perk combat tunneling. i would personally like to see this perk change in a way that it still strong against tunnelers but less effective against those who spreading hooks. Maybe deactivating if the killer reach 5 unique hooks or something?
I think the initial reaction to this perk is that you're drastically overrating it's effectiveness.
Maybe if the perk didn't announce itself, then spreading hooks would actually be beneficial since you'd always want to be in chase.
As it is, this perk heavily incentivizes following the hook stages. Since the unhooker will scream and become exposed, you know who it is that has that hook stage now. So technically you aren't tunneling because you switch survivors, but it's not that hard to figure out that Ace is the one with the hook stage and is the new best target.
With the barest amount of game knowledge (knowing survivor screams) you can still get someone out in 3 hooks, especially since this can't be used on death hook.
But since many killers struggle with game knowledge and game sense, they'll just continue to camp and down the unhooker in one shot, then probably still tunnel off hook.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835473#Comment_3835473
If they can't even make DS 5 seconds without people complaining enough to get them to revert the buff
It is wild that DS never got the 5 seconds back.
It was perfectly fine for a stun that you, as a killer, can easily avoid. They shouldn't have nerfed it back to 4.
Yeah, the disabling in end game and conspicuous actions were perfectly valid.
The fact that they reverted the 5s back to 4 is infuriating, and tells me they just can't bring themselves to make anything functional against tunneling.
Especially since the initial 5s change also came with the *longer* animation, so survivors still only got about 2s of distance somehow. Like, everything about that change was the devs being half hearted and not genuinely caring about the tunneling issue.
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@danielmaster87 said:
It's probably game breaking. Tunneling, which you have to do, now solved.
This might be a record for number of incorrect statements in the fewest number of words.
It isn't game breaking, and even tells the killer you're using it. And since camping, tunneling, and specifically going back to hook are hard meta, your likely to go down by being exposed too.
Tunneling isn't necessary, but even if you're so biased as to think it is, this perk isn't nearly strong enough to completely counter tunneling.
If they can't even make DS 5 seconds without people complaining enough to get them to revert the buff, there's zero chance they're going to make an anti tunnel perk that's more than barely functional. And this one likely just makes you the tunneling target, and half kills you to do it.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834602#Comment_3834602
It most certainly does. We called this. We called that if you keep ruining perks that reward hooks (Pop, Pain Res), reward injuring (Thana, Sloppy), and reward chasing (STBFL), what else is killer to do? We'll do what we need to win, but this is simply not enjoyable for either side, and it was entirely preventable!
"Give me everything I want, only buffs and never ever even consider nerfs or I'll take it out on my opponent"
This might be the most entitled thing I've ever read, which is saying a lot for this forum. And it's selfish to a degree that completely lacks empathy.
This is the kind of post where I need to emphasize that DbD is a game.
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@Xernoton said:
At this point I want them to remove the mori again just to see the meltdown when people realise that killers still slug for the 4k.
This was a thing before the finisher mori and unless they make some drastic changes it will remain a thing.
The killer has no reason to hook the 3rd survivor and risk the other getting hatch. None at all. You don't get more BP (you might actually get less, if that survivor escapes), you don't pip more and if your opponents are dicks, they'll flame you regardless.
Are people really this disingenuous to the problem with this mechanic, or are most people just so blinded by bias they can't actually understand the nature of the complaints here?
If the devs threw in a tangible, base kit incentive to gen rush, you wouldn't say anything like this, you'd argue that incentivizing and encouraging that behavior is the exact opposite of what the player base has been asking for and not what the game needs.
No one is saying that slugging for the 4k popped up overnight because of this mechanic. I hate using this phrase because it's overdone, but that's the literal definition of a straw man argument.
People have been asking for the devs to address slugging for the 4k constantly since the hatch rework. It's not fun to sit and bleed out on the floor, and it's barely gameplay.
But they didn't rework hatch, or let the survivor bleed out faster (which doesn't change the game outcome, just respects the players time), instead they threw in a base kit mechanic that actively encourage killers to do this more.
That is the main complaint about this mechanic.
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People aren't complaining because of what you mentioned, of course slugging for the 4k existed before this.
The complaints are because survivors have been asking the devs for years to address slugging for the 4k, and when they finally do anything at all it's just to make the situation worse.
Let's put it in killer speak, since that seems to be the only thing that gets through on these forums. Let's say the devs gave survivors a "celebration dance" that automatically showed off the survivor team teabagging in an unavoidable, unskippable cutscene for all players. But to activate it, they had to complete 3 gens in the first 60 seconds of the game.
People would complain about gen rushing. Not that gen rushing doesn't exist, or hasn't existed, but why would you incentivize people to do it when the biggest complaints are to remove it?
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@PreorderBonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834354#Comment_3834354
You're mistaken. A Killer 'winning' doesn’t mean Survivors are 'losing.' Both the Killer and Survivors can win simultaneously in a match, so when there’s a draw, two Survivors also 'draw.' A 2K is the same as a 2E. The only scenarios where only one side wins are a 4K or 4E. So attributing all 2Ks as Killer wins and Survivor losses is inaccurate.
- 0k (or 4e): Clear survivor win.
- 1K (or 3e): Survivor-favored outcome.
- 2k (or 2e): Neither side exclusively "wins." Both could consider this an acceptable or neutral outcome.
- 3k (or 1e): Killer-favored outcome.
- 4k (or 0e): Clear killer win.
This leaves us with 2 possible win scenarios for the survivor side, 2 possible win scenarios for the killer side, and 1 scenario where both sides win equally. You're making it seem like 2k/2e is favoring the Killer when it's not.
Then you'd have to consider that the players using Nightlight are just a tiny fraction of the community and not representative of the actual stats of the game. According to the official data, Survivors escape around 43.5% of matches, aligning closely with the 40% escape rate (or 60% kill rate) that BHVR is targeting.
But ultimately, debating escape rates is pointless because many Survivors aren’t necessarily playing to escape. Plenty are focused on completing rift challenges, goofing around with friends, being overly altruistic, testing new builds, and so on. Without a dedicated "ranked" mode where everyone plays with the intent to escape, these stats are just one factor among many others, and trying to boil down the game’s balance to them alone is ignorant.
I address draws here, that's what a 2k is.
Since you didn't read it, let me parse it for you:
Just defining a killer win to be a 3k or 4k pts killers winning about 51% of the time, and draws occur about 12.5%. so survivors are winning about 37% of the time
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I mean, you're making a few assumptions here to force the system to give you the information you want and declaring victory.
The most glaring is the use of random.uniform since we know for certain that isn't how the game works. The distribution isn't even close to uniform. There isn't the same chance for a 0k as there is for a 4k, for example.
Even just using the nightlight stats, 4k is the most common outcome (33.83%), then 0k (19.77%), followed by 3k (17.34%), 1k (16.49%) and finally 2k (12.58%). That's heavily weighted at the top end, not uniform.
Not to mention your results are highly off. Just defining a killer win to be a 3k or 4k pts killers winning about 51% of the time, and draws occur about 12.5%. so survivors are winning about 37% of the time. Not killers, although that appears to be the result you were trying to shoot for.
If your model doesn't even come close to the known data, then your model is wildly wrong. Which makes it seem like this was done to manufacture an outcome you liked to make a certain point.
The information is maybe interesting, but it isn't relating to DbD in any way.
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@A_T_E said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431683/will-the-mori-update-kill-the-game
Due to the Killer not bothering to put the third Victim on the hook
The term 'slugging' is common nomenclature for putting a Victim in the "dying state" for an extended amount of time.
Slugging for 4K refers to your described scenario, with the Killer looking for the 4th Victim without hooking 3rd, slugged Victim.
It can occur, but isn't as common as many on this forum makes it sound like. It happened before 4K free mori, and it will happen again even if free mori is removed.
If you do not wish to be slugged, bring the Victim perk "Unbreakable", but don't get yourself up unless it's very end game or the Killer is actually trying to slug for 4K. 😀
The problem, though, is that slugging for the 4k has been a regular complaint from survivors since the hatch rework.
People have been asking BHVR to do something to address it since bleeding out for 4 minutes is not really engaging and barely considered gameplay in an already lost match scenario.
And after years of asking, they make the problem worse by incentivizing slugging for the 4k. "Here, killers now get a free Mori if you do this".
That's completely the wrong direction to be going with this.
And, for the record, I've been pushing for a "bleed out" option for the survivor I've they hit "find help" in this situation. Respect the players time, and doesn't change the match outcome.
But hey, let's just ignore it and make the problem worse is apparently the direction they have already chosen to go in.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833666#Comment_3833666
Right, but the stipulation is that the killer would know how the survivors are approaching, which BBQ doesn't do unless the survivors are approaching from 40 metres away within 5 seconds.
For the others, Weave is getting changed soon and would be really inconsistent for this purpose, Zanshin only applies for a few seconds after a pallet drop, and while Darkness Revealed at least functions in a way where it could do this, it's bad for any purpose, including this one.
None of these perks really can be used to camp, that's my point. It's not that they're better at other things, it's that they flat out don't do this thing at all.
Also, y'know, Distortion and a few other tools still work against them other way.
Distortion and what, shadow step? Lockers?
Because we were told incessantly this was to "help survivors by removing the permanent hiding play style" yet that will still exist with those tools. That argument is bs, but now the argument is "well you can still hide if you want to". Pick one.
The reason I brought up those perks and why this helps camping and tunneling is that the killer can basically choose to not engage in chase with anyone else and deny distortion stacks now, while easily eating through existing stacks. That's a choice that killers can make, so some certainly will. You seem to not be understanding that part.
And I'll post this again: The punch line though, is that anything that can be used to camp or tunnel better will absolutely be used by some players for that purpose.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833625#Comment_3833625
How exactly have aura perks been power creeped? Things like BBQ bitter murmer and nurses have been around FOREVER. We've gotten more aura reading that trigger from different causes, but I wouldn't say they are necessarily stronger. Stuff like Friends til the end or Alien instinct I wouldn't say is STRONGER than BBQ. Many of these perks also announce that you've been seen. The last time we've gotten an aura perk that DIDNT announce itself was 2 years ago.
I'm also just going to add that this:
The last time we've gotten an aura perk that DIDNT announce itself was 2 years ago.
It's deliberately attempting to miss the point or just a lie.
If I "play around" weave attunement and don't bring an item, it doesn't notify me if someone else's item reveals my aura. It only notifies you if you pick up an item, which, coincidentally, means your aura isn't being revealed any more.
That's not two years ago. Try like 5 months.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833625#Comment_3833625
…What perks are they going to use while camping the hook like that? I can't think of any that'd work in this context, the only ones they're likely to have at all are things like BBQ, Alien Instinct, and Friends Til The End, none of which allow them to camp and know where everyone is.
You partially answered your own question: BBQ does this basically natively. But also weave attunement, zanshin tactics, darkness revealed and probably a couple more I can't think of could also provide information while staying at the hook.
The punch line though, is that anything that can be used to camp or tunnel better will absolutely be used by some players for that purpose.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833625#Comment_3833625
How exactly have aura perks been power creeped? Things like BBQ bitter murmer and nurses have been around FOREVER. We've gotten more aura reading that trigger from different causes, but I wouldn't say they are necessarily stronger. Stuff like Friends til the end or Alien instinct I wouldn't say is STRONGER than BBQ. Many of these perks also announce that you've been seen. The last time we've gotten an aura perk that DIDNT announce itself was 2 years ago.
I never said buffs, although that's also true. This isn't 2020 anymore where nurses calling, I'm all ears, and BBQ are the only aura perks that exist.
When BBQ was meta you used to have a base kit counter to the meta aura perk because you could hop in a locker when the killer picked up. It was like a base kit distortion that survivors could use.
That doesn't exist any more, because the telegraph is simply non existent for most of these perks.
Lethal was buffed to increase the power level of all aura perks.
There have been an absolute ton of new aura perks added to the game over time. Killers can get aura reads from kicking gens, breaking pallets, a survivor being near a dropped pallet, opening a locker, unhooks, and I'm likely missing a ton more. That doesn't include add-ons or add-on reworks
Oh, and most recently the survivor just having an item.
That's power creep. So when you say "what do you mean?" That sounds really tone deaf.
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@Xernoton said:
I will never understand how this is so horrible for solo queue. You can't hide the entire game so the killer might actually find you and hook you instead of your teammates.
How is that bad? The less targets the killer can find the less they will spread hooks.
Aura perks are not the reason you die. It's the fact, that you rely on a perk to not get found in the first place. Learn how to delay a killer in chase. That's a gamechanger.
The power creep on aura perks has been steadily increasing over several years now. Distortion was likely the only thing holding them back, so there will probably be a number of changes and nerfs needed to aura reading. The game isn't designed for the killer to know where survivors are at all times.
While I appreciate that your instinct is that this will help the killer spread pressure (it might for some players) that's certainly not the play style we see dominate in the actual game.
What is also certain to happen is that killers know they can burn through tokens and continue tunneling one person while knowing where everyone else is. They can camp the hook knowing where everyone is and how they will probably approach for rescue.
A new excuse for camping and tunneling is now "but I'm just playing around distortion by not allowing their tokens to recharge". Not that those people need an excuse, but some people will justify anything.
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Some people desperately want dbd to be a pve game where the opponent has no influence on or control over the outcome.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
Do you think Unknown is an overpowered killer? They balanced him for 60% and normally people think he's one of the best balanced killers in the game, whose killrate was 64% with 10% pickrate as of april 2024.
Nurse generally has the lowest kill rate. That doesn't necessarily mean that the best killer in the game needs buffs.
Many, many of the buffs over the past couple years have been base kit for killers: bloodlust buffs, maps are smaller, pallets and tilres are weaker, more dead zones, minor reworks to buff most killers' kits (with more on the road map every time), sweeping perk buffs to information, chase, utility, and more. They buffed pig for crying out loud.
People don't generally want to acknowledge these buffs because they want more. People want to focus on regression being nerfed because that's the only category that they care about, and basically everything else has been buffed. Most seem to want all the current buffs and go back to cobruption meta.
But the game is starting to fray because it's based on this 60% kill rate. It's too high for the game to be healthy, and seemingly arbitrary. But when you have killers in the roster who are winning twice as much as the survivors they face, the devs are taking drastic measures to fix that, which people seem to hate also.
55% is likely a more healthy number to aim for, and since we passed that point, the devs should have data to see that also.
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These perks shouldn't be touched for a good long while. Killers are still in the mindset of being completely obsessed with regression and this would only encourage that again.
Besides, there's absolutely a possibility of these perks being used again to 3 gen, even with the 8 kick limit. With the "anti gen tap" feature, killers could (and certainly would) just prevent regression from stopping by forcing survivors off the gens if these perks were buffed to be too strong again. It doesn't matter if it's one regression event if you can keep the regression going indefinitely.
And in shoebox sized maps it only makes patrolling the gens that much easier now.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832332#Comment_3832332
I mean, it does come with a trade-off, that you end up perma-broken. But on the flipside it adds a BNP to every gen on the map.
So, let's say that the survivor using Invocation is cracked, and knows every little trick in the book, on how to mind-game the killer. Then it might become a problem, since now, all gens are essentially in the pre-nerf state.This perk is mathematically terrible and not worth using.
If you spend 60 seconds on the invocation and even pull it off, you get 50 seconds off of usable gens since you only need 5 gens complete. Let's round up a ton and call it 70 seconds even though the last 2 gens never matter.
That 70 seconds costs you 60 seconds of invocation time, time finding and traveling to basement, and you lose half of your chases automatically if you're successful. And if, at any point, you're interrupted, you have wasted all that progress that literally drains away. And you're "best" off using the perk early, which means you're literally sitting doing nothing during the point in the game where survivor is the strongest, and making the game 3v1 for the killer, with a good possibility of the perk doing nothing.
On the other hand, you could spend 60 seconds on a gen. Which is not quite irreversible, but regression isn't nearly instant like the invocation. And finishing a gen is 90 seconds of irreversible gen progress (not 70). Costs you far less travel time (7 gens instead of 1 basement). And you get full chases the rest of the game. Oh, and it's base kit, so it doesn't take a perk slot.
You're objectively better off on a gen instead of using this perk. This is a killer perk, even after the buff to invocation time.
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@adam1233467 said:
Even if they haven’t these builds you would still lose, you got 0 anti gens perks
Did you look at the match result?
Survivors brought a full gen rush setup and the killer has zero slowdown and the match was a draw.
There's clearly plenty that could be done already to tip this particular example into a killer win, but the option OP went with was asking for nerfs instead.
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@Ayodam said:
I can’t think of any other game that rewards players for having bad ping. And only when it’s one particular role at that. SMH.
Most games do actually use a "favor the shooter" model, where if it looked like the person attacking should've hit it generally counts it so the game feels right. But those have also tend to be symmetrical, so each team benefits from it sometimes.
DbD has only one side that attacks, but even then the hit validation is sometimes egregious.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831136#Comment_3831136
How do they know which matches to not include for hook suicides?
The stats they gave on this is that they can track survivors who die on first hook. Which, while it may include survivors who are simply not rescued or heavily camped, those situations are pretty rare. So that's most often going to be someone taking attempts and missing skill checks.
Might be a slightly inflated number, but since the most egregious example of this is probably skull merchant, and the "death on first hook" for her specifically was about 3%, we aren't taking about numbers that are going to drastically change the kill rates here.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
At the highest level with an experienced and coordinated SWF on comms the game is very much survivor sided, which is why survivors are so limited in perk choices in comp matches.
The game used to still be quite survivor sided at the middle level and killer sided at the low end as baby survivors are hopeless at using map resources efficiently.
But I feel that the game has gradually become quite killer sided below high level players, of course some maps and RNG can sway that a bit but much of what made the game very survivor sided has been eroded away over the years.
Even in the highest level tournaments with no restrictions, killers were still performing at the same levels of kills and win rates as the BHVR stats.
The "no holds barred" tournament play style, which is effectively the live game, is equally killer sided.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
skull merchant DC mentality being rewarded instead of extra punished lead to this, imo
people give up way too easy now because there's no actual societal pressure or in-game penalties for that. no system to punish clear bad actors, nothing. DC penalties are too soft and easy to bypass, otherwise there are no stakes in the match for survivors, even made up.
solo q, objectively speaking in terms of gameplay quality and balance is at its best, yet it feels the worst because of people being awful. wonderful.
This is making light of actual issues though, and missing the point entirely. I can tell you barely play survivor, and why would you if you want to win the game occasionally.
Saying "balance is at it's best" is completely tone deaf to the huge issues the current game has. Balance has steadily been shifting in the killer's favor for two years now, and that's been the stated goal since the devs are pushing for 60% kill rate. An arbitrary number picked out of a hat, that a lot of killer players didn't really care where it came from because it had meant a ton of buffs and changes to allow killers to win more.
Balance is the issue here. Trying to claim it's "skull merchant mentality" is insane. That killer has a 68% kill rate, and that doesn't include any games with a disconnects or games with people dying on first hook. That means the killer wins their games TWICE as often as the survivors they face. That's completely insane for a PVP game. It's a huge indicator that game balance is in a terrible place alone.
But having survivors giving up more frequently is another indicator that game balance and game health are in a terrible place.
OP nailed it: camping, tunneling, and slugging are out of control. Survivors don't feel they have any viable options to compete anymore with the cascade of killer buffs given out and seemingly endless survivor nerfs. We're nerfing distortion for crying out loud, that's how bad it's getting.
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Say it with me:
Matches. With. A. Disconnect. Aren't. Included. In. Kill. Rates.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830831#Comment_3830831
I think SM is special case, I've seen way more DCs against her than give ups. People hear her TR and already know that they won't play this match.
I judge based on my games and what I see on streams across many people, and maybe bigger picture isn't that bad, but I think majority will agree that giving up is too common, especially in last ~half-year.DC's are already thrown out and not counted in kill rates to begin with.
So the 68% stat means that if you completely ignore every game with a death on first hook and ignite every game with a disconnect, the killer is still managing a 68% kill rate.
That also means that the player experience is going to be higher than even the 71% because most of those games with a disconnect (that aren't included in that number) are going to be survivors losing.
Trying to spin these stats in a thread about the "game being survivor sided" is showing an insane level of bias and mental gymnastics.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829957#Comment_3829957
Well, yes, I'm only looking at that aspect because that's what is being compared.
OTR being an anti-tunnel perk and Shadow Step being a better overall stealth perk is relevant but it's not the thing being directly compared. We're talking about people who want to be able to block auras in their matches, and in that context, Distortion is comparable while still being better. It's better because it's dedicated at doing that one thing, but it's not so much better that it invalidates the aura blocking even existing on the other two perks.
If you want to block auras, specifically, that specific effect, there are reasons to bring any of the three current viable choices now. That includes Distortion, it's still in the running and it's still the best at it. It's just not perfect anymore. That's a good thing, it means players have meaningful choices to make instead of auto-locking the overtuned best in class, while still having the value they'd want to get from each perk.
Y'know, except for Sole Survivor. That's kinda the asterisk on the "there's reasons to consider any aura block perk" take, that one still sucks.
Setting aside pretty much this whole thread of trying to pan this nerf as a "good thing for survivors". I'm just gonna say, no it's not. It's a survivor nerf and a pretty big boost for killer. Let's just call it that and stop being disingenuous about it.
But about this:
If you want to block auras, specifically, that specific effect, there are reasons to bring any of the three current viable choices now.
No, there's aren't "three viable choices now" there are zero.
Of your three perks, only one works at the start of the game: distortion. You can't block "checking for weave attunement" or lethal pursuer with off the record, so let's stop trying to imply that you can. There's only one perk that can do that and it's getting gutted.
The boon is useless, unless you're only trying to hide all game and never interact... Which is what we've been told the distortion nerf is for. So people trying to actively avoid chase can keep being useless in the boon, but people playing the actual game have no option now. Removing options from survivor while giving killer more and more aura read options is not a good thing.
Going back to hook is meta, so OTR's only real benefit here is the endurance. The unhook notification is a pretty big reminder to the killer of exactly where you are and that you're ready to be tunneled again.
This nerf is, was, and always has been a killer buff. Let's just call a duck a duck here.
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@n000b51 said:
'now the last survivor can give the killer a Mori.'
If you like so much to watch Moris for free, you can play all of them as much as you want directly from the Store.Sure, but you're missing the key part for a lot of players: is just not the same unless there's a player on the other end.
Most of these killers want a pve experience in a PVP game. It's the suffering that makes it special.
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Weird double post.
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If I'm on hook and there's only one other survivor left, the best play, and most sportsmanlike action with any gens left is to let go and give them a better chance at hatch.
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@alpha5 said:
The Blight in that screenshot could eat through 6 hook stages on one survivor while slugging out the rest. This mechanic neither solves anything nor adds any gameplay. The extra hook stage is easily avoided by hooking the rescuer in a trade granting a whopping 4s of distance to the tunnelee.
This is a problem with blight and game balance. If the killer can burn through 6 hook stages then you're basically saying the killer can get 3 hook stages while mostly asleep...
Which is why blight has a 2000+ win streak. Played correctly, this killer basically cannot lose the game. That's a huge game balance problem, and basically says that if someone is losing as blight, at all, it's just a skill issue.
No game mechanic, that applies to all killers, can fix that without dumpstering most of the roster. You're looking in the wrong place in that scenario: the issue is the killer combined with the tunneling tactic being too strong. This targets tunneling, you have to address killer balance separately.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829514#Comment_3829514
really, at this point it would've made more sense to just delete the whole elimination thing from the game and rework the gameplay around global hook meter so that macro missplays (not tunnelling/being tunnelled) are less punished on both sides.
stuff like what tru3talent was bringing up in that discussion with otz. i honestly hate the idea of it, but it at least makes some sense.
They did a shared hook pool in death garden iirc and it wasn't great.
I've advocated for a hybrid solution in the past: hook donation. Each survivor can choose to put their first hook stage into the shared pool, but not more than that.
So if the killer tunnels one person out, they will have to eat through 6 health stages to kill that survivor. But if they spread pressure it goes faster, because you aren't just waiting for the unhook and the focus goes back to being in chase all the time.
Survivors get the option to be selfish, but in tunneling situations, the best play is to give a hook stage to the team and everyone comes out better for it.
And for killers who apply map pressure and spread hooks, literally nothing changes. It only impacts camping and tunneling.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431063/when-are-we-going-to-address-slugging
Survivors equally complained about the finisher Mori so much (and for some good reasons) so they scrapped both the Mori and basekit UB.
Basekit Unbreakable as it is NOT needed and would be way overturned. Maybe an UB that was 90 seconds and gave endurance and a speed boost would be good.
Both the original ptb finisher mori and base kit unbreakable were terrible ideas. You could see that from the 90 seconds of took some killers to slug all 4 survivors and auto-win the game: that version of finished Mori was busted.
I'm not sure why you jumped on base kit unbreakable though, since OP said nothing about that whatsoever. He didn't define what "mechanic" would fix it, and honestly I'm not sure either.
Reworking hatch and letting survivors speed up the bleed out are long overdue either way.
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@fussy said:
I don't know why everyone says old BBQ effect basekit, BPs are literally last thing I care in this game, I literally tired to waste it and I'm more than happy with amount of them on killers. And it's more incentive to non-tunneling than to hooking itself.
I had some idea of how to incentivize both non-tunneling and hooking. I think they are still pretty good.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635648#Comment_3635648
Blood points bonuses are one of the least controversial, and minor ways to incentivize anything. Having the old "BBQ bonus" BP for hooking each individual survivor the first time should've been made base kit when they removed it from being tied to the perk.
That incentive has no cost and literally has no impact on game balance. Players can still choose to play however they want, yet it might just incentivize people to play in a way that's more fun or healthy in some cases too.
The WGLF bonus, BBQ bonus, and even PT blood points bonuses should all be made base kit. And that shouldn't be controversial in the slightest.
As a side note, every one of those recommendations is wildly broken, completely overpowered, and should never be considered for the live game. You can dream about survivors starting out the game on hook all you like though I guess.
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Lethal is fine. This is almost as ridiculous as asking for distortion or WoO to be nerfed.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828150#Comment_3828150
I don’t believe any perk (for survivor OR killer) should be viable only at a specific player level; those being novice, intermediate, advanced, etc. All perks should have utility regardless of a player’s skill level. They’re called perks as in they enhance gameplay. If they’re in some way detrimental, what’s the point of using them? As for trade offs those are usually fine but not every perk should have an inborn weakness—certainly not if it does something one can do without it.
Personally, I don’t mind WoO as killer or survivor, but I do not wish to see another survivor perk hampered with extraneous, unnecessary conditions because the opposition feels it makes their games challenging. I mentioned elsewhere this perk has been in the game literal years and isn’t doing anything today it hasn’t always done. The only reason why it’s META relevant is because maps are being reworked to favor killers and survivor perks are being nerfed to a point where only 12 or so provide consistent, general value.
And, unfortunately, there are people who read this and think "why stop at 12, once WoO gets nerfed it'll be 11 and we can pick the next one".
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@Akeeno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827894#Comment_3827894
thats what sucks too, having to use a perk slot for something that could be easily changed.
the reason its so infuriating, is because its the equivalent of a killer hitting a completed generator, and now you have re-repair it again.
It's not the equivalent of kicking a completed generator though. You haven't gotten the hook state yet.
Sure, you're 90% of the way there, but last I checked killers seen to love regressing gens that are almost finished. It's the goal of checks notes the killer meta builds for most of the game's existence now.
If survivors are lurking for flashlight saves, they're also following your chase (not to mention not on gens). Being situationally aware, with sound cues, extra scratch marks, and looking around, is a pretty simple, base kit counter to this. That's also called game sense in most games.
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@Rick1998 said:
well yeah whoch is why you should never go off a video saying X combo is op . Like saying weaves and franklins is op when i can just load in with no items and counter half your build . Slowdown is still the meta as always .
Like saying weaves and franklins is op when i can just load in with no items and counter half your build .
Not bringing an item puts you at a pretty big disadvantage. The equivalent here would be "survivor perk X isn't op, just never use your killer power and it does nothing". Thankfully that doesn't exist, but it sounds pretty overpowered to me.
By your logic here, "just give up and go next" counters every build. We shouldn't be encouraging that.
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I generally say yes, it needs a buff.
However, given their track record with "updating" maps coughhaddonfieldcough, I almost prefer they leave it alone rather than make it somehow worse.
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Most jungle gyms have an ideal way to chase the survivor to make it easier for the killer. As an example, cow tree on the farm. If you chase the survivor clockwise, they get easy access to the vault every loop. But if you run it counter clockwise they lose distance and have to either take a slow vault or take the turn really wide to try and fast vault it.
The chase direction is determined entirely by the killer, so you have control of that direction.
It may benefit you to look up a general looping guide on YouTube because most, if not all, jungle gyms have a "correct way" to run the tile to make the chase easier for the killer. Similarly there's also a "wrong way" that will make it easier for the survivor, so you should know how to zone to force the chase the direction you want/need for that tile.
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@Sandt1985 said:
The distortion nerf wasn't just fine, it was absolutely necessary. A single survivor perk should NOT be able to singlehandedly shut down an entire category of killer perks and addons.
With that being said, I'm fine with it being buffed to 15 seconds per chase per token. Its in a really good spot now. Powerful effect, but not oppressingSo lightborn also deserves a nerf by this logic?
This is a terrible rationalization for a nerf, let alone deleting one of the only reliable counter plays to an increasingly large number of aura reads available to killer.
The game isn't intended for the killer to have nearly constant wall hacks on survivor locations, and not having any way to deal with that is going to eventually either break the game or result in sweeping nerfs to aura perks. These distortion posts seem to be celebrating the former without realizing the later is inevitable now that the reliable counter is being removed.