AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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I didn't play then, but my understanding was that back in 2016 there were "rulebooks" for both killers and survivors. The game was so small that the community could basically punish poor sportsmanship in the next game.
So, killer camps survivor to death? Next game he's got survivors running (actual) infinites and can't catch them. The community policed itself for the most part.
But the rulebooks were things like "don't camp", "don't tunnel", "don't slug", "don't bring the mori that can be used on the first down of the game" for survivors, and things like "don't instant complete gens with bnp" and "don't run (actual) infinite loops" for killer.
The killer rulebook was technically a thing, but largely died out from conversation... Because the devs removed or dealt with it. Instant BNP got reworked long ago, and again recently, loops got blocked after 3 vaults, infinites deleted from maps, and in modern maps they just make anything loopable into a dead zone.
For survivors, I'll give credit and say that camping has had a lot of attention. Rotating hooks, AFC, base kit BT, removing hook grabs are all measures aimed at face camping.
But things like tunneling and slugging have had basically nothing added to combat them, at least nothing base kit. The solutions have all been perk-related. The closest answer here was that DS was overtuned without conspicuous actions or end game restrictions for years, but now with the duration nerf killers don't even think about it.
The "survivor rulebook" is the only one talked about, because it's the only one left with things in it unaddressed for that long.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799868#Comment_3799868
Official killrate/escape rate actually proved my position. Killrate is lower than ever. And escape rate is huge especially in SWF.
Official escape rates are about 43% globally, last stats we got from BHVR. Saying kill rates are lower than ever is just demonstrably false.
That 43% includes SWF, and even if you include "high MMR" a 4-man SWF player is escaping less than half the time.
Unless you have a source for these claims, you're completely off base with these statements.
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24% more than 35 seconds would be about 1 in 4 survivors.
So basically, they're admitting that slugging for the 4k is insanely common. Not every game, to account for other slugging situations, but still an awful, awful lot.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799972#Comment_3799972
What you believe is irrelevant, because the Devs stated they like to nerf perks that are used to much to keep the meta fresh.
Therefore, Windows needs to be nerfed to fall in line with their philosophy.
Just informing you why you’re wrong about it not needing to be nerfed. No insult intended.
That was their stated philosophy for 6.1.0, and I believe they consider that a mistake. At least the community did.
More recently the balance philosophy has been around the 60% kill rate, not about perk or item usage.
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Gee, who could've seen this exact post coming after the announced distortion nerf?
Oh, right. That would be everyone.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799636#Comment_3799636
I would prefer for this to happen sooner than later. Or again, some form of official statement about the situation.
Completely agree, I don't think they've handled this situation in the best way.
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I'm glad they're continuing to work on her kit. You can argue that this isn't a great way to deal with the situation in the interim, but something is certainly wrong with this killer and needs to be fixed long term.
I'm glad they're looking into it, and hopefully they can find a rework that is both fun to play as and against.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799542#Comment_3799542
Maybe now that stealth has been obliterated, bhvr can make loops a bit more viable.
If not then I guess everyone has to be godtier loopers.
After 2 straight years of nerfing everything from tile spawn logic, making maps smaller, making vaults unloopable (harvester), adding huge dead zones, and "reworking" maps to include all of these things, I have no reason to think the devs will suddenly pull a 180 and make loops prevalent or good..
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799548#Comment_3799548
most game are either a 1k or a 4k.
But do you not see the implications of this?
Most killer losses still acheive 1 kill, most killer wins snowball to 4 kills. If you took these two games, you'd have a 50% win rate for the killer, but a 37.5% win rate for survivors and a 62.5% kill rate. If these are truly the most likely scenarios, then they have an impact on the average win/kill rates.
Combined with what I said above about most 2K games being mostly a survivor win up until one final mistake, average kill/win rates are not in sync.
This is separate from whether you consider it a draw. By any measure, a 2k is a close game.
You're specifically trying to spin it as a survivor win that slipped away, where it's easily just as valid to say the killer made a mistake and missed out on his third kill. Or survivors barely scraping by to get gens done as the second survivor dies.
There's an underlying assumption here that gens completed means survivors win, that's not even close to true, and why things like blood Warden and noed exist.
Regardless, if you could somehow match players so every game was a 2k, it would be a close game every time. What we have now is the game is balanced around literally "steamroll the opponent or lose". In DbD terms this is gen rush vs tunneling. Which is exactly why 4k is the most likely outcome, and why I say 1k or 4k are typical outcomes. Which team won the objective speed run is usually your answer. A 2k indicates both teams tied: a draw condition.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799485#Comment_3799485
A 2K could very well be a survivor win depending on the circumstances.
At the very least a 2K means the gates are open, which means the survivors have played well enough to acheive they main objective. If it happens that the killer has only scored a couple of hooks on different survivors up until that point, the survivors have clearly outplayed the killer. If it then turns out that the survivors make an overly altruistic play that results in two of them getting hooked and the other two escaping, while it's technically a draw, the gameplay leading up to it is anything but.
Can you understand how regarding this kind of play as a draw would be overstating the killers performance and skill? And how regarding this kind of gameplay as the ideal middle ground would be a miserable experience for killers?
I'd wager the majority of 2K games play out similar to this to varying degrees. Meanwhile killer 'wins' are more prone to snowballing into 3K and 4K results, and even when the survivors clearly win it's usually possible to seure at least 1 kill. It means kill rates are inflated relative to the experience of the players.
This is why I previously said that survivor and killer perceived win conditions are at odds (and asymmetrical in an asymmetrical game). Killers ideal balanced state, as far as how the game is currently formatted, is an average 2.5K (62.5%). While for survivors, a 2K (50%) average is the fair middle ground. Which means to keep both sides happy you need a kill rate between 50% and 62.5%, and both sides will perceive themselves to lose more than they win.
There's a reason you completely base MMR off of the results of one match.
In your "2k" example, sure, maybe the survivors soundly beat the killer and the killer managed to get 2 at the exit gates or something. Killer got lucky once. (Also possible the 3rd survivor dies to complete final gen, and the survivors barely escaped at all. I've done that personally) But over time, as more matches get played, that same result isn't going to happen every time.
If you have similar MMR survivor teams, and the killer is consistently getting a 2k, even if you don't want to call it a draw (for some reason), you have to admit that the game was close. Again, this isn't a one off "got lucky" match, those happen as well, but if this is happening consistently, then the matches could easily go one way or the other and the killer and survivors are, at minimum, well matched.
A 2k is usually the least likely result of the 5, and most game are either a 1k or a 4k.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799094#Comment_3799094
it's just knowledge, aura revealing perks are quite obvious especially nowhere to hide and bbq.
Aside from lethal, BBQ, undying, and eruption, aura revealing perks are anything but obvious.
You don't know the killer has darkness revealed from the aura read, you have to see them open a locker, which may just be reloading for some killers. And unless you see exactly that action it's indistinguishable from BBQ, but the counter doesn't work. Just as an example.
But this also misses the entire point with the distortion nerf: if you want to avoid having your aura read, you have no real options now. BBQ is the only aura perk with a telegraph so you can hop in a locker before it triggers. Unless you stay in a locker all game, which is what stealth survivors will do now.
Aura reading in 2024 doesn't have skillful counter play. It's not 2020 anymore and BBQ is the only thing to really worry about, and you just have to play around it. The counter play is to block aura reading, because auras are insanely common now. Which is exactly why people pushed for the distortion nerf in the first place.
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@foods said:
survivors cried about 3 gens and having to pay attention to the gens they were doing
You misspelled "dealt with both gen kick and 3 gen meta for over a year where killers held games hostage".
Survivors still can 3 gen themselves if they aren't paying attention, and it still provides a great *opportunity* for the killer to progress. 3 gens were never supposed to be an auto win for the killer. But it took several perk nerfs, a killer rework, and an entire new mechanic to get people to almost finally stop playing gen kick simulator. You can thank killers for that.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799133#Comment_3799133
in my mother tongue the word we use for “rat” means something despicable and wretched. It is like a vermin, something you wish to destroy. It is not something you use to describe a person or group of people unless you mean them great harm, like a slur. I see more people here using this word lately to describe immersed or stealthy survivors. Why I see this more now?
It depends on the community, I think.
Other games, like Apex Legends tend to use the term "rat" to mean "a player who avoids pvp interaction to focus solely on surviving". In that sense it applies pretty well to this scenario.
But I don't think I regularly hear the term applied to DbD. Usually this community refers to that play style as "stealthy" or calls the player "immersive".
Also, I'll second the point that I feel like the "distortion nerf is good for survivors" seems to be from players who simply want it removed from a killer standpoint. Most of these arguments come across as disingenuous at best
I agree with you, though, that the "immersive" survivors who hide with distortion will just use lockers instead. I feel like that's a pretty obvious result.
And what I'll refer to as the "majority" of distortion users, players who simply want to avoid being found first (and then tunneled out early) are just left hanging. Which I feel is the main reason people tend to post disingenuously about the nerf "being good for survivors". It's just a shame that the devs didn't take that into account and just deleted yet another perk from an already thin pool.
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@Bookern said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798785#Comment_3798785
us vs them when your wildly a bias them the gens buffs were unnecessary remove them
I literally didn't say any of that.
Are you replying to the wrong person maybe?
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This mode feels like they're testing speed running objectives for both sides.
Killers have basically nothing stopping them from camping and tunneling, which seems to be the takeaway from the first version of this mode. The modifier for AFC offsets the free stealth killers get (and used to camp hooks, surprise surprise), and even 30s of BT is far less than the anti tunnel perks would give.
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@Bookern said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797908#Comment_3797908
and now its wildly unbalanced towards Survivors and now Killers will stop playing but i guess as long as its your side thriving right?
im not asking much just the repair speed buff gone so matches can last longer then 3 mins
The US vs them is unnecessary, as are the attacks.
If you read my post again I refer generally to "players", and say that there needs to be a semblance of balance for players to want to play the mode. Which literally applies to survivors and killers.
The only reason I mention survivors at all is to help explain why the devs felt the buffs were needed for this iteration.
I feel like lights out is never going to work because the game doesn't function correctly without any perks at all. It's a failed experiment, and maybe the devs will scrap it after this run.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
Kill rate means absolutely nothing and does not show how strong a killer is. Case and point: Nurse and Blight have the lowest numbers, but are the strongest in the game.
Merchant only had a 70% because survivors kept going AFK or run into her on purpose to suicide on hook, which massively inflated the number higher than it should be.
Even if you want to claim that people giving up inflates her numbers, that's still a huge issue and an indication of a problem.
Either the 70% is legitimate, and she's genuinely overperforming (so needs adjusting), or is inflated slightly by people who don't care for the kind of gameplay that she provides. The latter still requires adjusting. People giving up in large numbers is a huge warning sign about your game's health, and I don't think this just applies to skully, but the game was a whole right now.
Even if forever Freddy and og legion didn't have the same kill rates, the gameplay alone means they should at least try to change something about the character.
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@Bookern said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796941#Comment_3796941
if we should not care about balance then why did Devs and the majority of the player base make and want changes
A limited time game mode doesn't have to be perfectly balanced.
But it has to have enough semblance of balance that people want to play it. Even the devs said they were surprised that people (survivors, largely) stopped playing the first iteration of lights out within a couple days, because the balance was so far off it simply wasn't enjoyable in any sense.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797668#Comment_3797668
Off the Record only works off an unhook though, Distortion will be more versatile. It's a trade off, instead of one being objectively better like current Distortion.
If you haven't been hooked, then why are you worried about anti tunnel?
If you have been hooked, OTR is better in every conceivable way.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
Here's a big list of them:
- Don't heal
- Don't be injured
- Don't be near a killer carrying a survivor
- Don't be far from a survivor when they get hooked
- Don't complete a generator and don't let all generators get completed
- Don't stand in the exit gates
- Don't be near a locker
- Don't be downed
- Don't repair a gen while a survivor enters the dying state
- Don't let a non-obsession get hooked
- Don't be the obsession
- Don't let another survivor get injured
- Don't cleanse a hex totem
- Don't be near a dull totem
- Don't blind the killer
- Don't stun the killer
- Don't become the obsession
- Don't be near a killer that recently kicked a gen
- Don't be near a scourge hook while the killer is carrying
- Don't be near a killer destroying a wall or pallet
- Don't go in the basement
Simple: just hide in a locker all game and move occasionally.
Which is what the "hide and seek" players are going to do now. This only really hurts the survivors who ran distortion to avoid being tunneled out first, so we're about to see what happens when aura reading has no actual counter play.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797625#Comment_3797625
Recharging in chase means it rewards killer engagement, and also serves as anti-tunnel, because what were you doing right before you got hooked? Being chased.
Recharging out of chase means the Distortion user is even more incentivised to just hide and scurry away while all their teammates die for them.
Distortion is useless as anti tunnel. OTR is simply, objectively better, since it gives endurance, makes you silent, lasts longer than 12 seconds, and consumes all aura reading during the duration, not just the first instance.
And that's on the off chance that the killer doesn't stay near or return to the hook. Distortion does nothing if the killer is there to watch your feet hit the ground when you're unhooked.
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Have you considered that the game overall is balanced in such a way that dredge, Myers, and pig are over performing the stated goal of 60%?
That maybe, just maybe, the game is an unfun slog for a lot of players and over tuning the entire game is causing these problems?
I highly doubt that people are, en masse, giving up to skew numbers. What you're seeing is that the game is over in the first couple minutes for the first survivor hooked, and the only real reaction to the current game state is to admit their game is over and go next.
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In general, no.
I mean, the terrified, hide and seek blendette could technically just do the same thing in a shadow step boon. These are the players people have been insisting are "the reason distortion is a problem" and "survivors will be better off if distortion is nerfed". But that's not going to affect this tiny minority.
The players who run distortion because they're sick of being found first and tunneled out of the game are the vast majority, and shadow step doesn't fix that problem. At best, they'll use up their only token on lethal pursuer or weave attunement and just be screwed the rest of the game. Doesn't matter if you have one stack of distortion when the killer goes immediately back to hook for you.
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Missing the skill check removes hyper focus stacks.
This combo has anti-synergy.
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It'll mean an eventual nerf to aura reading when things get out of hand.
I miss the pre 6.1.0 days, where the main thing you had to worry about was BBQ, and there was actually counter play by getting in a locker because the trigger was telegraphed.
Now, aura reading is triggered by basically anything, and most of those triggers have zero telegraph for the survivor. The only "counter play" to those perks is "just bring distortion", and now even that is being deleted.
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@Obscura said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797313#Comment_3797313
I forgot:
- Survivor leave no scatchmarks
- Survivors see gens highlighted in red, when close enoughAnd yet the game mode was still not worth playing. I'm not sure what part of that is unclear.
Since you seem to just like listing features of the game mode and complaining, instead of having any kind of discussion, I'm going to leave the conversation here.
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@Obscura said:
Survivors got:
- Lights (Candelabras) (funny, in a lights out mode ……..)
- 20% faster at gens
- double anti facecamp distance
- 60 sec Endurance
Killers got:
- Nothing
As survivor, even in soloq, you escape nearly every trial with 2 or 3 hooks for the killer.
Great.Killers still get free stealth, and no perks means that base kit "strategies" like camping and tunneling have no counters like in live.
The reason they're giving survivors a boost this time is because it was atrocious to play last time. No one wanted to play survivor when every game was free insidious camping and tunnel simulator.
Lights out in the last iteration was absolutely not a "free escape".
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797237#Comment_3797237
Yes, because executing something = balance and good. Next time when for example DS gets nerfed, it should last only 20 seconds, stun for 2 seconds and disable if someone starts to healing you or you pick a item. Fair, right? Killers would love it, deserved!
Considering this is what actually happened to MFT and in these same patch notes distortion, it sounds like you're completely on board with all of these changes.
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So we're deleting distortion from the game, adding a couple other ways for killers to see survivor auras, and not touching any existing aura perks for at least a couple months yet.
That sounds like a terrible idea on paper.
Also, crowd control can effectively block every vault location on some maps. Midwich has I think 5 vaults total, and Gideon has 6 or so.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796038#Comment_3796038
Killer main hysteria. I seriously doubt anything like what they’re doing with Lights Out makes it to base game. They might do something to further deter camping and tunneling (maybe in the form of new perks), but they’re unlikely to tweak any basekit features. Like you I think they’re trying to encourage more survivors to play Lights Out.
This is the same reaction any time there's literally anything for survivors, and anything that could possibly, even remotely, be used for killer interaction gets twice as much hate, twice as early. And this is in a limited time mode, for crying out loud.
I honestly feel like some people on this forum take the tactic that literally anything survivors can use in killer interactions needs to be torched and complained about incessantly. Then, when the only option is "do gens or die" they revert back to "gens are too fast, nerf everything" and the cycle continues.
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Should people lobby shop? No, but removing prestige has removed a big reason people used to.
There will always be petty reasons people dodge ("two toolboxes? No thanks"), but I don't think it's worth reworking the lobby for those cases. I'd rather the devs focus on gameplay now tbh.
I'm still not sure why it took over a year from "live testing" to "implemented" to remove prestige from the lobby, but they finally made the right call. That also tells me that any other lobby updates are highly unlikely to happen any time soon, even if they wanted to.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795842#Comment_3795842
The problem we're pointing out is that most of these issues aren't due to killers being broken, it's other survivors not pulling their weight for whatever reason. Throwing for tome challenges, making mistakes constantly, not doing gens, etc.
I mostly run SoloQ myself. And my best games are when survivors are doing the gens, or if I decide to make a gen build for them.Sure, I didn't miss that point.
But you also have to admit that if the game is telling a solo player that they'll win about 50% more games if they just choose killer instead, that's a pretty big problem.
There really isn't any fixing the capabilities of the average player. They aren't going to become instantly better overnight, or start doing gens because the patch notes told them to.
But if you take those players and put them in a shoe box with nothing to loop (like haddonfield) they're going to struggle even more. And if the choice is between fighting tooth and nail as solo survivor and maybe, sometimes come out ok, or turn your monitor off and play killer... What do you think people will gravitate to?
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To the people who say this is a solo queue problem:
So for players who play DbD alone: if they choose survivor they should expect to lose most of the time, but if they choose killer they should dominate most of the time.
I don't think that "you picked the wrong role to play solo" is indicative of a healthy game balance. Especially since at least 60% of survivors and 100% of killers play solo. That's a pretty big problem that should really be addressed, not blown off.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795708#Comment_3795708
Even with that caveat, Adrenaline is still an exceptional perk.
The free heal and speed boost are both very strong effects, the fact that you can't be guaranteed an escape with it by coming off the hook fully healed doesn't really change that. It was downgraded from "Exceptional perk with a truly broken use case" to "Exceptional perk in a fair way".
Not that Adrenaline being good or not really changes my overall point, it was just an example of top tier perks to support the rest of my post. I genuinely did not expect that to be controversial, lol.
I'm not arguing that it's still a good perk, I agree with that.
I was more contesting the wording you used, since the "main thing" isn't guaranteed anymore.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793800#Comment_3793800
Adrenaline? That perk's still incredible, it still does the main thing you need.
On the topic of Light-Footed, it's not just for flashlight saves, it's also for being able to leave tall loops without the killer knowing and for being able to run around on multiple-story maps completely silently. It's slept on, I think it has some legit application but most players aren't really interested in it.
Nothing wrong with that, of course, it just doesn't make it a bad perk.
Adrenaline? That perk's still incredible, it still does the main thing you need.
Not if you're hooked when the gates are powered. Then your "once per game and only in the end game" perk does literally nothing.
Instead of playing most of the match with 3 perks, you end up playing the entire match with 3 perks.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795467#Comment_3795467
Exhaustion mechanic.
Medium vault speed.
Distance needed for a fast vault.
Also, since we're limiting to "base gameplay" you can add:
Increase to base gen speeds, most recently +10 in 6.1.0
Anti gen tap mechanic
Hatch rework
But since the person you're responding to can just claim anything is "qol" you won't get a good faith discussion about this. It'll just be moving the goalpost.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795260#Comment_3795260
Technically Distortion has to be purchased via Jeff. I wouldn’t call OoO or SP equivalent as they don’t block aura reading, they just reveal the killer’s aura during times when the killer can see that survivor’s aura.
True, but Jeff is also a free to play character that can be bought with shards.
The other perks are licensed and only available via real money directly or real money through cells.
And I wouldn't call them equivalent either, but more "in response to" killer aura reading. Distortion is currently the only way to outright prevent auras from being shown to the killer.
Maybe 3 years ago we could've included lockers in that list, when basically BBQ, nurse's, and I'm all ears were about the only things you had to worry about, and BBQ allowed for counter play with lockers. You can't use that same argument now that aura reading can be triggered by just about anything, and most things have zero telegraph to avoid them. Shoot, most aura reading these days you only find out about because distortion lost a token.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Distortion is a poor man's OoO. Why be afraid of aura reading when you can simply make it a two way street? Especially now that Eyes of Belmont and Scene Partner exist too.
Distortion is a poor man's OoO
This is the problem right here.
Every single one of the "replacement" perks you mentioned is licensed. So anti-aura is simply, and literally, pay to win after distortion inevitably gets deleted.
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@PriestessPoppy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791995#Comment_3791995
From someone who always run reassurance, every single game since ptb, it never worked that way in basement, it was always range
You're closer in the middle of the basement stairs to the hook than on the landing turn near the bottom, that's just how radius works. But reassurance doesn't work on the stairs, and does at the landing. Reassurance also works through floors on maps like Midwich, so it's not a verticality issue.
The only reason it wouldn't work on the stairs is either a bug or they specifically disabled it until you're fully in the basement.
Given that it doesn't work standing directly above the basement hook, I'm inclined to say it's not a bug, but it's intentional.
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@GoingToGetDwight said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791987#Comment_3791987
The killer was not slugging us more like just trying to drag the game out it like a simi slug i would call it
You could try and report it as greifing, but the only way killers can really hold the game hostage is by body blocking you in a corner, or by holding a 3 gen for an extended amount of time without attempting to hook or down anyone.
I get that being slugged isn't fun, and that's a separate discussion, but the official stance of the devs is that those 4 minutes of bleeding out *are* progressing the game (because you're dying) and slugging isn't holding the game hostage.
Separately, I fully agree that it's a ######### move, and I've wanted a "give up" option for slugs after they hit "find help" for several years now. I have no indication that the devs are interested in doing so.
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It's actually hard coded differently in the basement, at least it used to be. I haven't run reassurance since it released because it didn't really solve the issues after the meet from ptb (which is why they ended up adding AFC later).
Reassurance didn't work even on the stairs next to the hooks, you had to be all the way at the bottom, in the basement. You're definitely within the 6m range on the stairs through the wall, so there's something else going on that prevents it from working in the basement than just the listed range.
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@Shinkiro said:
As long as the game can potentially end you aren't being held hostage. That only applies if they can keep the game going indefinitely. Slugging you isnt holding you hostage. If someone if up they can do gens, if people are bleeding out they die in 4mins, both can advance the match state.
This is kind of correct.
In the sense that OP is saying, where they bleed out in 4 minutes, you're correct. The devs have said directly that slugging until bleedout isn't holding the game hostage.
However, the game automatically ends after 60 minutes. And things like the killer body blocking one survivor in a corner to force them to die after the other survivors finish gens, or two survivors hiding for extreme amounts of the without trying to progress the game, are both examples of hostage taking, even though the game technically still ends.
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Since distortion is on the chopping block months ahead of weave, I personally can't wait for object to take over.
I fully expect Olympic level mental gymnastics as people try to claim that "permanent aura reading" is busted and broken with object, even though it's technically only possible because of the permanent aura reading of weave.
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Given that the current philosophy of map design is a giant dead zone with a single pallet held up by two telephone poles, I'm curious what you think people should be looping?
You get more value running circles around the thicker trees lately, since actual "tiles" like jungle gyms appear to be a thing of the past.
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@totallynotamegmain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789842#Comment_3789842
30 seconds.
OTR lasts for 90 and stops killers from being able to do their objective. The counter to that also gives survivors value. But if I was to complain about OTR and DH combo then I’d get told that theres just “an easy counter” so I’m not allowed to complain.Lethal and corrupt are also two perks, just like weave plus franklins are two perks, but they are less powerful because corrupt last longer and lethal extends all aura reading.
Also oblivious? Are you seriously complaining about oblivious? You sound like the type of player to complain about scratched mirror myers because you can’t hear his terror radius. There is nothing wrong with oblivious.
There’s also distortion, object, and other perks that by themselves counter half the killers build, plus get value even if they don’t bring that combo.
It's at least 30 seconds, but the main point that you apparently missed, is that you have to do something other than gens at the start of the game. That's exactly what corrupt is intended to do: you can't do gens immediately, it slows you down right away and delays gen progress at the very start of the game... Just like weave does.
Again, you're completely missing the point. You're getting roughly the same value as lethal and corrupt IF THE SURVIVORS ARE "COUNTERING" YOUR COMBO.
It does even more than that if they didn't counter it.
And you don't need franklin's for this value. If survivors know to counter it at all, then they see weave and assume you have franklin's. By the time they realize you don't have franklin's, they've already dropped their item and didn't even get a notification that you don't have it. 100% of this value is in one perk: weave.
I'm not complaining about oblivious, I'm complaining that weave also somehow accomplishes even more than just lethal and corrupt, and potentially infinite wall hacks.
People defending this perk will literally say anything, or deliberately misunderstand the point, to have the broken thing in the game.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791226#Comment_3791226
Explain to me how camping is easy in this day and age. You can't be too close or you'll give them a free self-unhook, and with the increased hook time their teammates hook trade more consistently, even when they waited way too long to go save. Killers will in fact slug more, even if it costs them the game, because they're rightfully afraid that hooking gives them nothing. No pressure, no fewer survivors, no regression or slowdown without perks. They just waste 45 seconds of time chasing 1 person to start the game at 1 hook and 2-3 gens left.
Are we really trying to imply that standing exactly 11m from a hook is some kind of huge challenge now? Only the most skilled players can figure out this one trick?
I know that literally anything the killer does is an amazing feat that's never before been seen in gaming history, but come on.
Anti camping measures (including the anti face camping mechanic) can only be considered, at best, a slap on the wrist. And that's if the killer can choose to just move slightly farther away and avoid that slap on the wrist entirely.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791024#Comment_3791024
They also try to say tunnelling is necessary to win in public games when the intended kill rate for public games is 60%. It's not necessary. There's an argument to be made with the current balance it's necessary in the competitive scene and I defer to those with much greater experience there (they know the reality there far better than I do) but I'm not discussing the competitive scene. I'm discussing public matches with random teammates with a game that is intentionally balanced so the Killer has a greater than 50% win rate. There's no need to tunnel in public matches.
I also find it humorous how there are so many defending camping and tunneling who say they don't camp or tunnel but have enough of a personal investment in the issue they act as if their family is being held hostage and will be killed if they don't react with outrage to the suggestion that tunneling and camping might be bad for the game.
It's quite the dichotomy to be so incensed about something somebody supposedly has no investment in.
It's unfortunately the same song and dance on these forums, pretty much everywhere.
People simply cannot handle the idea that they could ever possibly hit their skill ceiling. They're "Max MMR" gods at the video game, and losing a single game out of 20 is an outrage. It can't be their fault, it's that the game is broken.
My favorite, which is directly in this and nearly every thread where this comes up, is that MMR is broken somehow. It's not. Or at the very least it's nowhere near as broken as people want to claim in this context.
You touched on it briefly, but what's actually happening is that killers have way, way too many things that boost their MMR above their actual skill level. Camping, tunneling are the biggest ones, but we've also had things like gen kick meta and 3 gen meta that do the same thing.
Tunneling is far easier to execute for the killer than it is to counter for survivors, so killers can tunnel every game until they are literally up against survivors who know how to counter it. At which point, here come the posts about how MMR is broken. Entity forbid that killers not be able to win every game every time, or even just 60+% of the time.
You also have the "incentivize other play styles so killers don't tunnel" argument that came up, which is basically just saying "everything should have a 90% success rate for killer" in this conversation. That won't ever work and it's a terrible idea. We need more things like the +10 seconds to hook time that discourage tunneling by making it less efficient, but aren't abusable by either side.
This is also the other reason MMR is so complained about: because currently MMR is the only thing in the game that punishes tunneling every. Single. Match.
And some people hate that.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790949#Comment_3790949
I really don't know if you understand the ramifications of that. I would much rather lose a bunch of progress on a gen I just did (and still be able to play the game), than sit on the ground for four minutes. As annoying as it is, Pop + Pain Res is way, way healthier for the game than slugging being strong.
My point is that killers will prefer the pop+pain res combo over slugging as well, which is why I said this problem solves itself.
This complaining over 10 extra seconds of hooks happens basically any time there literally any change whatsoever. A small, but loud, group of people have a tantrum, threaten to play like ######### for a while, and then it dies off and never becomes a meta strategy.
It's pretty tiresome to listen to, honestly.
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Hey, you know, maybe if slugging takes off it'll finally kill off the pop+pain res meta that's existed for basically 3 years or so now. But I doubt that'll happen.
I think once killers realize they aren't getting their precious regression from hooking this problem will solve itself.
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Pretty sure I had several people tell me that hooks respawning would prevent this exact scenario.
Good to know that was actually just a lie the whole time.