AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Seraphor said:
Chests are only 'not worth it' if you treat the game like a straight sprint.
The game might be able to be boiled down to a race against the clock, but that doesn't mean time costs are linearly comparable.
If option A takes 30 seconds and option B takes 40 seconds, it doesn't necessarily mean option A is the best way if it's also the riskiest.
E.g. opening a chest to get a medkit to heal up can be the better play to avoid goung down in one hit.
Similarly a toolbox isn't going to refund the time it cost to open the chest, but like Potential Energy, the benefit of repairing a gen a few seconds faster could be all the difference between winning or losing the game.
Except you may not know you're in a straight sprint game until it's too late.
There aren't comeback mechanics for survivors. So if you spent any time at the start of the game doing "not gens" then all it takes is a bit of momentum by the killer to make you regret that decision.
Killer decides to tunnel at 5 gens? Well, guess you're just out of luck using your broken key from your chest, and you get to die with it.
Killers can always resort to camping or tunneling to try and turn the game around.
Survivors can't just decide 5 minutes into the match that they should've spent those 5 minutes pushing gens as hard as possible. The advantage is only early game, and it never comes back if survivors squander it.
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Not shown: 4 slowdown perks and zero information.
Bonus points if this included camping an area like a 3 gen, or just generally waiting around for survivors to come to you to die.
At least 75% of these "I'm being held hostage by survivors" posts are from people who didn't think to look in the basement.
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Unfortunately, the ideal fix here is to focus on making the core gameplay fun. That way even losing the game can still be fun because the gameplay loop is enjoyable.
We had that, and we lost it.
Or rather, threw it away. To make the game a competitive slog, all in the name of some arbitrary kill rate statistic.
And right now, since they don't count DC's at all in kill rates, the players experience a much higher kill rate than the stats show. Early DC basically decides the game, and that have isn't included in those stats, but it sure is a part of the player experience right now.
I don't think we should be balancing around DC's, the devs are correct there. But there's something fundamental that is breaking the players in trying to force the kill rate higher. Mainly, it's that the game isn't fun: and that is absolutely a problem the devs should be fixing immediately.
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No perk needed.
All we really need is a way for a slugged survivor to accelerate their bleed out or a "give up" option to save people from being slugged for 4 minutes. There's no excuse for not having this already.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782681#Comment_3782681
But survivors have no problem tea bagging at the gates waiting for the last survivor to die or for egc to expire. They wait the time out happily, it's been a very very long time since I seen someone open the gate and escape or even try to save the team mate. So why is it they are ok to wait out 4min at the gate and not wait out 4min being slugged? Speeding up bleed out timer might help a few people move on quicker but most would hang around the gate regardless.
The countless matches I have encountered where survivors deliberately tea bag at the gate and hide out not doing gens in 2 v 1 scenarios really doesn't give me much sympathy for people waiting out 4min.
First of all, whataboutism.
Second, not every survivor does this.
Third, you've given up your argument entirely now. If they're teabagging, then no one is slugged or hooked and EGC is at most 2 minutes. If two minutes is so atrociously bad to wait out, then you're fully agreeing with me that 4 minutes of bleeding out is far, far worse. And there should be a way to reduce the bleed out timer.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782178#Comment_3782178
It's only 4min to bleed out, it's the same time as end game timer when someone is hooked or slugged. It's really not that long. If bleed out time can be reduced willy nilly by a survivor then I would like to reduce end game timer willy nilly
This is a pretty generous interpretation of EGC. It's 2 minutes by default. The only way EGC is lasting 4 minutes is if you slug. A player goes through both hook stages in 2:20. At which point you've gotten a kill.
So basically no matter how you slice it, allowing a slugged survivor to speed up their dying is going to affect slugging as well as EGC.
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I'd play artist more often, but the only real counter to her power is to just leave the loop. I don't really find that engaging most of the time.
Long distance crow sniping is super fun though.
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There was also a bug in the latest patch where endurance perks were not working correctly. Basically, OTR and DH were just not giving endurance iirc.
I'm not sure if this is the problem or if that issue was fixed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Just because an outcome was good, doesn't mean the match was fun or thrilling for either side. For instance, Legion can get kills, but how often does he actually get the 5th hit down… the thing that matters… ?
It's like how a Survivor can die, but they looped the Killer for a long time, rescued their teammates and did a few gens.
Result =/ Gameplay
True, but understand that players will automatically gravitate to the effective strat regardless of if it's fun for anyone.
There's a famous quote about game design that basically says "players will take every opportunity to optimize the fun out of the game".
Generally speaking, it's on the devs to make sure that the optimal play is also fun gameplay.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781988#Comment_3781988
And like lethal and corrupt, it's a one time thing if it's countered. The time is also variable depending on survivors and spawns. We often get thrown in a corner of the map to spawn so in cases like that time is negligible. If it's like those perks then it's a extremely worse version of them as it's almost completely under the Survivors control unlike normal lethal or corrupt. Survivors can also shockingly play without items. The counter may act like a slowdown, but it's only a 1 time thing for everyone who brought an item (0 times for those who don't) and not nearly as strong as actual slowdown perks.
And yet there's no downside for the killer.
You get the benefit of 2 perks if survivors "counter" the combo, and you get the benefit of 2 perks if the survivors *don't* counter it also.
So if the killer gets value no matter what, that sounds remarkably like there's no meaningful counterplay to this combo.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781662#Comment_3781662
A lot of things counter different things. It's not bad game design its called adapting. Would you rather have a killer lose half their build for the cost of a couple items or have the aura reading? Personally no aura reading is a MAJOR advantage for the survivors especially when they know that those 2 perks could have been more slowdown.
But this "base kit counter" everyone talks about is a form of slowdown.
You have to reveal your aura to the killer at the start of the match, and then go find a corner to drop your item in. It's like lethal pursuer, a mini corrupt intervention, and means you don't have an item until you waste more time going to get it later. Which doesn't even touch on oblivious. And, I can't emphasize this enough: that's if you're "countering" the combo.
It does even more than that if you don't counter it, so it's basically like at least 4 perks in place of two. Or even just one, since people will see weave and automatically assume the killer has franklin's, even if they aren't running it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781860#Comment_3781860
What would you call this ?
You mean the anti face camp mechanic that is completely circumvented by proxy camping at 11m?
If you read carefully, my entire argument was that the mechanic is circumvented completely by standing not that far from the hook.
Specifically, the person I was responding to was wanting "an equivalent anti gen" mechanic for survivors. Which is why I offered that any solution should be disabled if the survivor crouched for one second. Because it's a sarcastic way of saying that a trivial, base kit way of getting around the mechanic makes it nearly meaningless.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780641#Comment_3780641
The devs have repeated time and time again if the survivors aren't progressing the objective (which they still can do gens they just choose not to so saying theres no objective to be done is untruthful) and just hide and refuse to touch them. They are infact hostage holding. Because the games not progressing. The killer can't chase them. And they refuse to progress gens.
The devs have also directly stated that if the killer is just holding a 3 gen, and not making any attempt to down or hook survivors for an extended time that the killer is holding the game hostage.
This same situation came up during the 3 gen and cobruption meta and they again said the same thing.
Since you like links directly to the dev statements on this, here you go:
@Peanits said:
If they are making no attempt to down anyone and purely stalling the game by keeping everyone in madness 3, only downing and slugging them if they refuse to move, that would be considered holding the game hostage. We would need to see that they are doing this for a long time, though, not just a couple minutes. The 3 gen strat on its own is not bannable, it only become an issue when it's being used to grief instead of win.
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@MrDardon said:
If 2 Survivors are alive just hiding and not doing any objective for a certain amount of time they should be revealed.. either by Aura or Killer Instinct or both so hiding for that long should be punished.
Find a way to delete slugging for the 4k is the only way this might be feasible. Like, completely eliminate slugging at 2 survivors left, and even then it's likely to be abusable.
Because in a "slug for the 4k" situation, you have two survivors, one slugged, and at least one gen left. The last survivor is under no obligation to just give up, which is what touching a gen would do in that situation.
So you have 4 minutes to bleed out the other survivor, and presumably a couple minutes to find hatch. Even then, there's a chance at the door during EGC. So, this mechanic that reveals survivors wouldn't be able to work for at least 8 or 9 minutes, since all of that hiding is normal gameplay.
Otherwise you may as well just make the game end in a 4k when the 3rd survivor dies. Which I think is really what some people actually want.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I would rather prefer that the Survivor on the ground can just have a suicide option or instant bleed-out at this point when there is really no way that they can get up anymore.
This should've been implemented years ago.
Just make it either only available when 1 or 2 survivors remain, or just always allow the option at any time once the survivor is at the "find help" stage of recovery (about 36 seconds iirc).
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I can't see how survivors would be happy to play inside a shoebox where the "loops" consist of a pallet supported by two telephone poles in a dead zone corner of the map.
That's basically the newest version of haddonfield in a nutshell.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780082#Comment_3780082
This is kinda like saying "if killers were more powerful they wouldn't need to camp and tunnel".
Players are going to optimise their games however they can, and if there's a way they can win even more, even faster, they will.
It may technically be correct, but it doesn't always work out in practice that doing the opposite of a problem solves that problem.
Maybe. I've watched as nearly every "not gens" activity for survivors gets removed, then watch as people demand more gen time and/or stronger slowdown in response.
A great example, people want to say that circle was overtuned, fine. But currently boons aren't worth running, and admittedly having survivor go find and bless a totem at the start of the game is absolutely a task they will voluntarily do. Just not with the current state of boons. So, for example, if they added "survivors running circle of healing can self care in any circle of healing boon" would be a good way to improve the perk and address the old complaint of "one perk for the whole team". Free slowdown, an optional task that people clearly can want to do if it's even remotely worth it.
Similar things can be said for BU+FtP, or BP+FB. It's survivors choosing not to be on gens, and killers complain until it gets deleted and survivors go back to just doing gens.
Either we need to have things that aren't gens that are also worth doing that can be used to slow down the game, or we need to accept that "gen rush vs tunneling" is what we really are driving for in the end.
And, to your point, it doesn't change that people will want to win regardless of what you put in place. The game has generally been "sweatier side wins" for most of its lifetime. But, and I can't emphasize this enough, there's a huge difference in how this plays out in reality.
Survivors are basically expected to lose the game, and going up against a killer who wants to sweat is just simply a loss most of the time now. It's not fun, but MMR is the only thing punishing the killer for doing so.
Killers in general, on the other hand, seem to expect to win and many get horribly bent out of shape of survivors are playing to win. The loss is unacceptable, and it feels like a lot of people come and post here instantly after a game like that, instead of just accepting that you never should win every PVP match ever, and letting MMR put you where you belong.
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@supersonic853 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780128#Comment_3780128
Basekit BT kinda. Since when I started the killer could just be undetectable and down you through even BT as a perk since it relied on TR.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/F0Q59PZA4RPQ/screenshot-20240813-103922-chrome.jpg
Lucky new players lol.
@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780128#Comment_3780128
You dont know what anti tunnel is? Have you never noticed that short immunity timer giving you the time you need to get away? We only had borrowed time for this before the mechanic. And people didnt say "oh just use BT" no. We have a mechanic now.
Not 3-genning yourself was a task that was SKILLFULL for the survivor team to do, spreading gens and not doing them on only 1 side of the map is anyway by far the better way to pressure the killer, there was no perk for this but also this technique was not really rocket science either. Still we have a mechanic for it.
Hook grabs have been removed aswell btw, when it was the easyest thing to just let go right at the hit and then unhook while the killer does their cleaning weapon animation. Hook trades used to be what they are called, TRADES. Now i can convieniently know i will get my buddy from hook and will have enough time to get away still, while as a killer you need them injured in order to profit off of UNSAFE rescues.
And you know what everyone used to do when people were hard or proxy camping without the anti facecamp mechanic? → Gens. Rush them, the killer is not chasing anyone. If they just sit around on the same spot not doing anything but camping their oh so precious 1k then its litteraly so easy to just rush gens and get out the door.BT is, was, and always has been an anti camping perk/effect. It exists to prevent instantly being downed on unhook by a camping killer.
Regarding 3 genning, I'd agree that it *used* to be a survivor issue before 6.1.0. then killers realized they could hold games hostage with gen kick perks. You talk like the gen kick and 3 gen metas didn't dominate the entire game for a year.
And 3 genning still hurts survivors who aren't paying attention. It's always been a problem to make the playing field that small, because it provides a huge opportunity to the killer to find and hook survivors. 3 genning by any party should not be an auto win, which was the entire reason that mechanic was added.
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@Jim_Tonic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3780095#Comment_3780095
Anti facecamp
Anti 3-gen
Anti tunneling
3 features that have been introduced into the game despite certain perks alredy existing. I think its totally reasonable when killers demand something too for a situation that is also very annoying to them.You mean the anti face camp mechanic that is completely circumvented by proxy camping at 11m? So I guess this anti survivor mechanic would be disabled by crouching for 1 second.
Or the anti 3 gen mechanic that also came with free any gen tap? So which "compensation" mechanic should survivors get that always applies in every game, even if stalling doesn't occur?
I have no idea what anti tunneling is, since every single anti tunnel effect is a perk, which is exactly their point.
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@ForumPikmin said:
My only real suggestion is to make it so that after like 10-15 minutes of a match:
Survivors will gain crows after not doing 3-5% of a gen in a minute (revealing their location through noise notifications)
- Crows will NOT be gained if in a chase or currently on a gen
After 40 minutes they gain permanent crows
The huge problem with this is slugging for the 4k.
I'm a slug for the 4k situation, you have one survivor standing and waiting with gens left to complete, and the killer is just looking for them.
That last survivor has to hide, which is considered normal gameplay, for at least 4 minutes for the bleed out, another couple minutes for hatch, and if the killer finds hatch first, then 2 minutes of EGC mind games to get a door open.
If you are just going to give the killer free information on the survivor during all of this, then you're really just asking for all survivors to be auto sacrificed when 2 players and any number of gens remain.
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Because when you actually relieve the survivors' pressure to do gens and nothing but gens, they voluntarily slow the game down by trying to get any scraps of BP they can from the match.
It's why, if people want to slow the pace of the game in general, we shouldn't be increasing base gen times or buffing slowdown. Those things only put maximal pressure for survivors to do gens. Or, to translate it into forum killer speak: "they're forced to gen rush, there's just no other way to play the game if they want a chance at escaping".
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The current move speed was the original one on the ptb, like you said, and it was perfectly fine during that testing period.
The only reason people noticed a difference or even complained at all was the bug when it went live where there was zero attack slowdown at all.
People got used to having zero penalty for missing and are apparently still blaming it on this change, even though that's never been the issue.
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This is exactly why "killers should be rewarded for just doing their job" does not work at all.
Adrenaline is literally, hard countered by hooking the survivor. And apparently that's still not enough for some people.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778923#Comment_3778923
Think you're still missing it.
This resolves the issue of mandatory slugging. Not sure how many different ways I can try to explain this. This doesn't removing the ability for killers to decide to slug (which the devs have stated is considered legitimate gameplay) - it removes the issue where the killers MUST slug. This by definition means there will be less slugging in the game.
Personally, I think if someone is slugged, they should have an option to "give up", but for whatever reason, BHVR doesn't agree.
I'm not missing it, I addressed it in my very first response. That's why I call it a qol change for killer.
This doesn't a address slugging. At best, your talking about 1 instance in over thousands of games where this comes into play. So, effectively, the same amount of slugging still occurs.
Which is also what you're saying here. Intentional slugging is completely untouched.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778916#Comment_3778916
It was literally implemented due to mandatory slugging in some situations. If a survivor goes down in some places, it is literally impossible for them to get hooked which causes mandatory slugging. This helps resolve this problem.
As I said, a killer qol change. This doesn't have any significant impact to slugging.
Here are two of my top slugging experiences in DbD:
Had a slinger who downed two of us by the basement at the end of the game. He spent 4 minutes shootng the ground within easy range of unbreakable hooks while we bled out.
Had a bubba who slugged me and farmed with the last survivor. I crawled to a functional hook, and he stood watching as the other survivor healed me up and immediately slugged me again at the base of the hook. He downed and hooked her just before I bled out after 4 minutes.
It isn't hooks that were the problem in the vast majority of cases. This doesn't reduce slugging if the killer really wants to slug. Period.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Respawning hooks is great for survivors and killers. Less need for slugging.
This was not a change for slugging, it's a kill qol change.
They can't try to claim there targeting slugging, without first going after slugging for the 4k. That's probably 70% of all slugging instances in the game.
This is like 1 in 1000 games this change would affect.
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@VantablackPharaoh91 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778411#Comment_3778411
OK, but what do you do when you're mid-pickup facing a wall and hear the little click?
And as a reminder, not everyone plays with headphones. Some players are hard of hearing. Not everyone hears the click.
Flashbang needs a better counter than a really soft hard to hear soundcue.
This is a common complaint lately, and I really have difficulty understanding how people have no idea the flashbang rescuer is there.
They're following the entire chase. Leaving scratch marks, making sure they're close by for the inevitable down and pickup. They can't keep up with the chase if they're just crouching and walking, they have to be effectively chasing the killer.
So, to me, the answer to this is situational awareness. If you're so tunnel visioned that you don't realize a second survivor is literally chasing you in not sure what advice to give you on this. You already have a second person voluntarily not doing gens and in the times this has happened to me I can either fake a pickup or just slug and chase the other survivor. This is literally free pressure for the killer.
I never run lightborn. I think it's a waste of a slot, and if someone is choosing to try and blind over gens, then I want to actively encourage that. I'm pretty good at this point at avoiding useful blinds/saves with the base mechanics. Not perfect, but I gain so much by people who stand still to blind me at a pallet instead of "holding w". Otherwise, just look up in almost every situation.
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You certainly can work as a team as survivor. I think a large number of players want to play that way, being altruistic or even just considering the win condition as a team escape.
I've certainly done this by going back for an end game rescue that doesn't always work, or I've even had games where I die to finish last gen so the rest can escape. That's a team goal outlook, and I think it's a good one.
However, the game (and devs) doesn't work that way, or force people to work that way. Someone can run left behind, sole survivor, low profile, and bring a key to look only for hatch, and this is a build designed for solo escape at the expense of your team.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777284#Comment_3777284
i have no idea what the ideal amount would be but it definitely shouldn't be too small
it would be shared so a survivor hiding from a nearby killer wouldn't get crows while other survivor is doing their gen without any killer attention. it would just be stealthing and doing gens as people normally do.
The major problem with a mechanic like this is slugging for the 4k.
In that situation, you have 2v1, and there's a fairly long time where it's completely unreasonable to expect the last survivor to touch a gen. In the most extended scenario, where the last survivor standing is actually successful in hiding, there's 4 minutes for the other survivor to bleed out, a minute or two of hatch searching, and potentially another 2 minutes of EGC.
So, the game mechanics account for about 8-9 minutes of not touching gens as normal gameplay.
If you're going to just give away the survivors' position, just cut to the chase: the entity just eats everyone like EGC and the killer gets a free 4k if 2 survivors and any number of gens remain. That's really the end goal here anyway, if we're being honest.
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I just want the option to bleed out faster for these situations.
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@SunaIIanu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3774316#Comment_3774316
BBQ was already in the game and a meta perk. Also bitter murmur and technically territorial imperativ and bloodwarden.
I do agree with your general point though.
And the meta counter to BBQ during that time was to hop in a locker and count out the timer before you hopped out again. You knew based on pickup that the hook, and likely the perk/aura read was imminent and could react most of the time. And, I'd like to add that lockers are on every map, so denying that aura read was possible base kit if you used game sense and had good timing.
The power creep with aura read has grown by an awful lot, and it's effectively impossible for survivors to predict things like "killer is kicking the gen on the floor below me", "my solo q teammate is unhooking in 5 seconds", "the killer is opening a locker" either "near me" or "anywhere on the map", or "someone dropped their toolbox at this tile".
You'd spend the entire match in lockers if you tried to avoid current aura reading that way.
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@Brimp said:
Weave Attunement is literally fine. Dedicating half your build to a gimmicky aura reading build thats easily countered by taking 10 seconds to walk to the edge of the map… Yeah doesn't really need to be touched.
Every word of this is incorrect.
Dedicating half your build
Survivors who are going to "play around" this will see weave and assume you have franklin's. You can literally get full value with just weave right now.
gimmicky aura reading build
Showing nearly permanent auras has already been determined to be a bad idea. See also: old object.
easily countered by taking 10 seconds to walk to the edge of the map
You lose access to your item, you have to reveal your aura to the killer right away (so free lethal pursuer), you're oblivious, and you aren't on gens immediately (free slowdown).
So the killer gets the value of having aura read of lethal, initial slowdown like CI, and that's not only if survivors are "playing around" this combo, but it does even more of they don't.
Sounds like 3 or 4 perks in the slot of two (or even just one, since, as I already said, survivors will see weave at the start and assume you have franklin's).
Yeah doesn't really need to be touched
Absolutely needs to be adjusted.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759606#Comment_3759606
no they explained how to waste 2 killer perks, half of their entire perk loadout.
But it's not a waste of 2 perk slots, especially if you're using the "counter".
You have to drop your item at the start of the game and reveal your aura, then voluntarily slow down the game by dropping it in the corner instead of hitting a gen immediately.
You know what else does exactly that for two perk slots? Lethal and corrupt. And that's not a weak pair of perks on their own, I actually consider lethal to be one of the best choices a killer can make.
Oh, and the Lethal+CI combo doesn't make you oblivious or lose your item charges either. In fact, at the current state of the game, a killer could get all of that value with only one perk: since survivors who know this combo will see weave and just assume you also have franklin's every time, without seeing it.
So weave+franklin's is wall hacks if survivors don't play around it, and you basically get lethal pursuer and corrupt intervention for free if they do play around it. And that could be attained by just equipping weave alone, in some games. Which is exactly why people are defending it so hard.
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@WashYourHands said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3773044#Comment_3773044
equipping 1 perk slot for something you cannot predict is stupid. keeping LOS on a player with BP isn't guaranteed
You don't even have to maintain los. It's apparently too much to ask killers to have situational awareness to know that there's even another survivor lurking in the chase.
It's not like they can keep up without leaving scratch marks or playing directly into killer info perks.
But hey, I guess when they do nerf this eventually survivors will just go back to doing nothing but gens so that can be complained about again too.
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I'm hoping that it's just an auto-mori when the last survivor is downed or something. Can skip the need for unbreakable and it doesn't allow the game to drag on with endless slugging.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
The fact that you gain distortion stacks in AND out of chase is insane. It needs to be one or the other. Every single other perk is one or the other.
Yeah, I seriously hope this isn't the solution tbh.
No matter if they choose in chase or out of chase, the "answer" in both cases is to just tunnel the survivor. That really doesn't sound healthy, and killers genuinely don't need yet even more imagined reasons to tunnel.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
Ok. Let's suppose, the killer completely leaves the hook @AmpersandUnderscore .
Then, by macro macro pressure, let's also assume they need to go back to the hook, perhaps because the closest survivor pre ran to main building, or because they instantly saved just 20 seconds after the hook.
What happens if the killer, by macro strategy, in that situation is supposed to chase who was just unhooked? Oooops, they instahealed with Resurgence. Oooops they have Second Wind. Oooops they had Off The Record also because their teammate healed them. Oooops now they also have Decisive Strike. Oooops now they use a Syringe to heal mid chase and usually the killers can't do anything in those seconds. Oooops now they have Dead Hard.
But if the killer hits them immediately off the hook, they deny most of these things, most of these perks.
So the killer is forced to do this, because if they don't they get nothing.
So tell me, in this magical, fantasy scenario you dreamed up... Exactly how many survivors do you think are running:
- Resurgence (lol)
- Second wind
- Off the record
- Decisive strike
- Dead hard
At the same time?
Think about it real hard for me.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772259#Comment_3772259
The competitive sene is good, because it shows what the actual problems of the game are.
Btw, it's not just those words you used, it's a lot of macro strategy, efficient chases, skill.
A lot of people actually like the competitive side of the game. Many.
" Survivors will literally unhook the instant the killer finishes the hook animation to keep the pressure to a minimum. " : This is just factually not true.
In comp, if you just rescue immediately, you will get tunneled, plain an simple.
Btw, it's not just those words you used, it's a lot of macro strategy, efficient chases, skill
Couldn't agree more.
However, what I see here on the forums most often is people who try to mimic the comp play style without having any concept of macro strategy and seemingly minimal skill. That's a common thing in any game, people will copy the "meta" even if they don't understand why it have the ability to execute it well or correctly.
But most of the time, and especially in DbD, the effective tactic isn't always fun. And since something like camping is going to be copied by killers who forget to turn their monitors on, and it's generally one of the least interactive ways to play the game, it needs all the energy the devs choose to throw at it to mitigate that passive play style.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772195#Comment_3772195
the killer is reacting to the survivor play. the killer does not get to decide what survivor play is. there is suppose to be inherit trades offs between rushing generators and hook-states. Refer to @Zakon05 post that further goes into detail regarding this.
when a killer entirely leaves the hook to commit to separate chase, there is no world where a survivor will ever hit second stage with 70 seconds. An efficient team never lets survivors hit second stage in current 60 seconds while the killer is away from the hook. It is not like hook timer goes 1.5x faster or anything when the killer is away from the hook. If survivor are so concern about killer camping hook timers, why does the survivor not use Reassurance? The 10 second change is giving survivor a free mini reassurance with no downside. it is global effect.
The killer is not getting any free base perks in this update. I respect disagree with survivor getting free reassurance.
the killer is reacting to the survivor play.
This is exactly backwards. The killer determines the gameplay, hands down. If the killer goes afk, the game boils down to "do gens and leave". The only other things survivors have to complete are things the killer provides as objectives/tasks: chase, rescue, or healing/recovery, while still doing gens.
The thing that appears to be missing here is the picture of how pressure works once the killer has a hook. What the killer wants is for a constant cycle of one survivor on hook, one in chase, one going for rescue, and the last one on gens.
If you leave the hook, you interrupt one survivor on gens to be in chase, and ideally have short chases (which is admittedly determined by skill). The rescuer will naturally stop doing gens to rescue, since, again, it's always in the survivors best interests to have a 4v1 have and not a 3v1 for as long as possible.
Doing it this way leaves at most one person on gens at all times.
If someone is camping, however, the pressure is only on the hooked survivor. The other 3, as long as they know the killer is doing nothing, will do gens. Again, this is because the survivors react to killer gameplay, not the other way around.
If you want survivors to do something other than gens, you need to be giving them something to do. This is usually the big 3: chase, rescue, or on hook, but can also be killer power (go take your pig hat off, go find the box) or even perk related (go find your plaything totem).
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771680#Comment_3771680
Then this tells me you don't really know how the competitive Dead by Daylight scene goes on average.
With all killers, especially low tier killers with no mobility, you absolutely have to secure a second stage no matter what, unless an extremely lucky situation.
So what you say is just incorrect, I'm sorry to say.
I'm not even a fan of comp DbD, and I find that the comp scene creates a ton of issues in normal gameplay.
Have you ever seen comp DbD and watched a whole match? Cause all of the most common complaints from killers are there: hook bombing, gen rushing, pre-dropping, and shoot, it's literally called "running to comp corner".
Being competitive doesn't make it a fun strategy to play as or against. However, since we're talking about extra hook time, comp is also one of the biggest examples of hook bombing. Survivors will literally unhook the instant the killer finishes the hook animation to keep the pressure to a minimum.
So somehow, were supposed to believe that all of these things are "being maximally efficient", except survivors somehow want their teammate to be in time out for an extra 10 seconds to give the killer more pressure? C'mon now.
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Given that the "anti tunnel" solutions don't really exist, and the only change in two years to buff anti tunneling is a +2 seconds to DS that they immediately walked back to +1s, you're really just complaining about anti camping features.
And the answer to: how many anti camping features are the devs going to add? It's this:
As many as it takes for killers to leave a hook and chase survivors instead of staring at furniture.
It's a lot like the 10 seconds of BT, which does literally nothing and has no impact on the game unless the killer is already at the hook, or goes back to hook within 10 seconds of the unhook (so, camping or proxy camping).
The extra 10 seconds of hook timer has no impact on the game unless the killer is hanging out near hook. Survivors always want to unhook as fast as possible, because the game is effectively a 1v3 while someone is in time out on hook. That's why immediate unhooking/hook bombing exists, is to make the game 1v4 as soon as possible and reduce the killer's pressure.
The people who are against this change either do not understand the basics of pressure in this game, or are actively trying to undermine the change because they want to watch paint dry near a hook. This is why reassurance got severely nerfed from the ptb before it even went live.
The devs have taken a pretty hard stance against camping with the removal of hook grabs, AFC, and now extra hook timer. At some point people need to go do their actual objective by chasing survivors instead of standing still.
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@ObsidianButterfly said:
Lobby dodging is just a symptom of much larger problem.
Maybe they should be focused on fixing the disease instead of just treating the symptoms.
I'm curious what you think the "disease" here is exactly.
Since, in my opinion, and by many, many people's own admission one of the main reasons people lobby dodge is either for easier games or they get some kind of "bad vibe" (and just think the game won't be easy or fair for some subjective reason).
In those majority of cases, were talking about human nature to take the easy way out. That's not something the game or the devs can fix, but hiding prestige is one way to prevent those same people from dodging for reasons that aren't valid. (For example "all P100 players are cheaters, or gods at the game" are two very common sentiments that are both simply wrong).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771817#Comment_3771817
because hook stages are more free. you have more time to leave people on hook. it is not like hook regression goes faster for killer leaving the hook. it stays the same.
This is a very confused take.
It's never in the survivors' best interest to leave someone on hook. It's why instant unhooking and hook bombing exists, because survivors want to reduce the pressure from the hook as soon as possible.
Leaving someone on hook for the entire duration is just making the game a 1v3 while someone is in time out. I don't think I have to explain why a 1v3 situation is detrimental to survivors.
The only reason people wouldn't go for an unhook is if the killer is waiting at the hook and not pressuring the survivors doing gens (ie, camping). Which is exactly the scenario this change is designed to target.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771554#Comment_3771554
my question is, where is generator defence perk buffs in this patch? Like whole reason why generator defence perk were nerfed was to make killer less reliant on generator defence perks. The way they did that is by making camp more effective. Now they're nerfing camping, so where is generator defence perks at?
Increases hook stage - > survivor can gen-rush more by leaving survivors longer on hooks but the killer don't have same gen perks they had prior to said change. My thought on this change is gen-rushing is stronger and killer got all their perk nerfed.
so where is all base-kit generator regress stuff at or what perks are killers suppose to use that have high impact like before?
You realise that killer presence is slowdown, right?
A survivor doing a gen won't stop doing that until the killer does something about it. Maybe that something is hooking a teammate so they need to go save, but the best way is to apply map pressure and chase the person who would otherwise be doing gens.
The whole problem with slowdown perks in recent years had been that killers want to stand near the hook and do effectively nothing while the perks do all the work for them. Stand hear the hook until someone comes by, and you've done minimal map pressure and only interact with the survivors who aren't staying on gens.
What is this expectation that survivors should just stand afk until you're ready to deal with them? Go chase them down and push them off of gens.
Stop waiting around by hooks and go chase survivors. It's getting to the point where the devs need to hang this as a sign in the lobby, since apparently people aren't getting the point.
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If you aren't camping a hook, this does literally nothing to you.
It's still in the survivors' best interests to get their teammate off hook as soon as possible, and (supposedly) the killer isn't camping, so you're out pressuring survivors.
Literally nothing changes in that scenario.
The only time this affects anything is if the killer is waiting around the hook, or waiting to go back to hook. If you aren't going to pressure the survivors actually doing gens, that's basically camping or proxy camping. In which case, this change should make you really consider going and pressuring survivors who are actively doing gens.
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@jesterkind said:
Is it really required to make sure there's buffs to both sides' perks in every single patch? I think it's okay for some patches to focus more on the specific things the devs had ideas for/are already finished. There's always next patch, after all.
Besides, on top of the three killer buffs looking pretty juicy and the Midwich + scratch marks changes looking interesting, I'd argue that survivors getting a suite of buffs to perks that are more active and engaging to play against (for the most part, anyway) is to the killer's benefit too. More variety is good, and more meme-y perks are fun to face, too.
Ever since the "anti gen tap" mechanic got added, I think that cemented for a lot of people that any change whatsoever demands "compensation" now, sadly.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3771680#Comment_3771680
Why this style even punished. I think it should be player choice how to play. Put presure or stayed around hooked survivor. Developers ruin all fun from the game try make it healthier. You can say that stay around hook the entire game is not. I believe it should be player choice and not developers. Cause developers literally took away all freedom and just say "you play wrong, play like we say to you and no other way". Camp with insidious the only fun killer can have in this game and now they ruined even this. I understand why the doing this, cause last year update only favours survivors and killers get nerfs after nerfs. So its not a surprise that new patch would be the same (only buffs for survivors and only nerfs for killers).
The devs have decided that camping isn't the way they want the game to be played.
In a big picture sense, the killer drives the core part of the game, especially since it's pvp. If the killer is afk, the game is just "do gens and leave", and there's no interaction at all. When the killer just stands at a hook, there's a bit of interaction in the first chase, but there are still 3 survivors out there. If you stand at a hook waiting around, doing nothing, you're not engaging in pvp at that point.
The devs aren't taking anything away from anyone. If you enjoy sitting at a hook, that's still your choice. It's a slightly less efficient choice now, and you may want to consider pressuring survivors instead.
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You really don't want this in some areas.
Dead Dawg main actually creates an infinite if you break the wrong walls there for the survivors. I consider it a game knowledge check at this point, but you don't want to just delete them all.
Similar thing on The Game, where the walls create dead ends until the wall is broken or survivors complete the nearby gen.
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@katoptris said:
Do you wanna be slugged by killers and wait on the floor?
This is highly relevant since the 2v8 mode is still live, but:
They can literally make hooks spawn on top of a downed survivor and there will still be killers who choose to leave people slugged for no reason.
If the devs really want to target slugging, then slugging for the 4k is the only first step that matters.
This is only a killer qol change, let's call it that.
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@fussy said:
Obviously awful change, leave a way bigger room for mistakes for survivors. Especially on comp scene, I don't even know what they will do with these 20 sec in a matches, where literally every second can decide outcome of the match. Probably survivors will play itemless or even more perks will be banned, while public matches will have 4 Resi/4 Adren / 4 Toolboxes still without any problem, lol.
The "comp" scene perfectly illustrates why this change only hurts killers who camp.
The best survivor strategy is to get your teammate out of time out and off hook as fast as possible, so those extra 10 seconds will never come into play if survivors have any choice in the matter.
What this should, and hopefully will do, is put more pressure on killers who want to stand still at a hook. Now, maybe they'll consider their time better spent pressuring survivors off gens instead of watching a literal piece of furniture whole the rest of the survivors do whatever they want (hint: it's gens).
So, if the killer decides that standing around and letting survivors do gens for free is the best play, they're kinda the exact players this change is targeting tbh.