AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@WolfyWood said:
It's so funny that even with how strong killers are people lose one or two games an act like the sky is falling.
Slugging literally hasn't changed in strength and has always been strong if you do it when appropriate.
I'm sorry you can't just mindlessly hook and camp hooks but BHVR is changing the game to benefit skillful killer gameplay.
Good killer players have never been doing better.
At this point, if BHVR changes the font in perk descriptions, I'd expect people to throw tantrums like this and use it was an excuse to camp/tunnel/slug more.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790515#Comment_3790515
if you have any "above average" knowledge level of the game, one of the very basic things you will realize first is that having some survivors off gens doesn't neccessarily mean you are creating pressure at all lol, meaning that this statement is fundamentally incorrect.
Map pressure is not just simple thing about "keeping survivors off gens" What exact kind of map pressure are you creating if you are chasing one or even two survivors quite some distance away from the gens that are being repaired by remaining survivors?
It's not chase and keeping usually one or two survivors off gens that create map pressure, it's result of those chases that will eventually create map pressure, again depending on couple variables, such as the most important one: chase time.
Long story short: there are way too many variables behind the whole term "map pressure" for us to say that it's simply about "keeping survivors off gens"
This is kinda what I'm talking about.
Gens are not the killer's objective, survivors are. It's "killer" not "saboteur".
Map pressure means having one survivor on hook, one in chase, and one going for rescue. Which leaves at most one on gens.
In your initial post, you're complaining about survivors off hook "being aggressive" with "anti tunnel" perks, so DS or OTR are the only options here. If the survivor off hook is following you. You have one person in chase, one following your chase, and one or two on gens.
Somehow you're arguing that you want one in chase and 2-3 on gens, and that's somehow better?
Let the guy do nothing to progress gens, that's a good thing for killer. And why I didn't think you have any idea what map pressure means. Stop camping gens and chase the survivors.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789397#Comment_3789397
Skull Merchant is the Taylor Swift of DBD because no matter what the conversation is and whether or not it has anything to do with her in the slightest people will find a way to insert her into it just to hate on her
You could also pick artist or knight for this. Since you missed the point, which was survivors leaving loops means more "hold w" chases where bloodlust is likely to occur.
Killers can throw away bloodlust kicking pallets at loops, but can even accidentally get bl1 when the survivor "holds w". No pallets in open space means bl1 is effectively free.
I'm not sure why you seem offended by this, all I'm saying is that the gameplay of all 3 of these killers boils down to "leave the loop" is the only real counter to their m2. That's not controversial, it's just a fact.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790574#Comment_3790574
the difference is that all stuff you named was LEGIT hard to counter while weave is legit black white easy to counter. the other aspect is that weave gaining value /= killer auto-winning unlike eruption and ruin which were closer to gain value → win game perks.
I can equip weave on killers and all it does is allow me to watch myself lose. i can see people on gens with 4 of these perks but at the end of the day, your unable to make any impact with them.
It wasn't difficult to "just wait it out" either. The survivor still got really good value by the killer "countering" their perk. Weave has the exact same problem.
You can not bring an item, but then you're intentionally hurting yourself on the chance the killer has this combo (which is value even if the killer isn't running it).
If you do have an item, then the "counter" is to reveal yourself to the killer at the start of the match, become oblivious, and spend something like 30 seconds doing a side task to drop that item somewhere safe. That's lethal pursuer, corrupt intervention (you can't just do gens right away) and you have to waste additional time and free aura reading later if you actually want to use your item.
And that's "countering" the perk. If "countering" the perk is still at least two perks worth of value, that's obscene.
It has nothing to do with how "easy" the counter is, because the counter physically can't be any "easier" than equipping the perk itself in the lobby. You don't even have to activate or earn this thing, it just gives value because you bought the DLC.
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@ChuckingWong said:
The counter to weave is really easy, "just pick up your item".
okay lets reuse that same logic on, clearly, broken things in the past, and honestly now as well.The counter to DH is really easy, just wait it out
The counter to eruption is really easy, just let go of the generator
The counter to ruin is really easy, just hit great skill checks.
The counter to Buckle up + FTP is really easy, just wait it out or bring exhaustion addons/perks
The counter to Nurse is really easy, just break line of sight.
The counter to Sadako 2.0 is really easy, just grab a tape.
etc..
You can continue defending broken things based on "well the counter to it is just this", that's fine if you want to do that im not trying to take your opinion away. But it doesnt stand up to anything else that is clearly broken in this game, and was changed because of it by the developers.
And who asked on the percentages of what you play or dont play?Dead hard for distance is a great analogy.
Remember when you just had to assume everyone was running the perk, because it was required to play around it? And no matter what you ended up having to play suboptimally whether they did or not. If you counter by not bringing the item you're just doing that exact same thing.
You can risk that they might not have it, but if they are running the perk, you have to waste additional time going out of your way for no reason. In fact, the extra time wasted more than makes the perk worth it.
It's impossible to not get value from it, even if your opponent plays optimally.
At least dead hard was only usable in player pvp interactions and required active use. Weave combo is entirely passive and takes nothing more than equipping the perk in the lobby.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
once you get into higher skill matches with 0 restrictions, you will actually realize how:
anti-tunneling perks are way overpowered when used aggressively;
hook related perks like Deli, Wicked and Reassurance are way too strong because they remove hook pressure aspect
some of endurance perks are way too strong when people actually know how to use it.
Perks like Distortion and Iron WIll aren't really overpowered, but they are extremely unhealthy because they encourage extremely unhealthy playstyles.
"Genrush" perks? Nobody should actually care that much about them because wasting killer's time »» speeding up the match.
When you're truly high MMR, you realize that survivors using anti tunnel perks aggressively means they're not on gens. If they want to spend the entirety of the DS or OTR timer avoiding gens, that's fantastic news for the killer. That's an entire gen at 80 seconds of OTR.
It's genuinely not that hard to figure out the guy throwing himself at you off hook probably has DS, and slugging him is great pressure he's giving you for free.
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Hook times should match gen speeds.
It's non-abusable, and makes all forms of camping less efficient. (Also makes lingering for tunneling less efficient).
If the killer wants to stand and stare at furniture, then go for it. This does nothing to player autonomy and people can still choose to camp if they want. But it means that you're basically guaranteed to lose gens if you camp early. And does literally nothing to the end game.
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It's a perfect, non-abusable way to make camping and tunneling even slightly less efficient than they were. We need exactly that, and more things like that.
I typically argue that this 10 seconds doesn't do nearly enough and have said since 6.1.0 that hook times should be matched to gen speeds. This 10 seconds only, and barely, makes up for the extra 10 seconds of efficiency that camping and tunneling got when gen speeds increased. That was 2 years ago, and this was long overdue.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790020#Comment_3790020
Right. I just tried to throw him a bone.
The problem with the person I quoted and killer mains like him is that they’re average or below in terms of skill but they watch Otzdarva and LilithsOmen and Hens or whatever other content creator they fancy and convince themselves that these highly skilled players are their equals.
Most of these people commenting like the person I quoted play mid mmr (like BHVR consistently says; most players are in fact mid mmr) and aren’t consistently good. But they convince themselves survivors are so overwhelmingly strong because they see the caliber of survivors Otzdarva or whomever they admire face and then, in their low skill trials, come to believe they’re facing the cream of the crop like those content creators. That, and they’ve probably cheesed their way to a caliber of opponent they can’t actually handle due to cheap tricks.
So they cook up these crazy lies and conspiracies and attempt to warp BHVR’s data instead of accepting that they aren’t as good as they believe. I believe it’s called cognitive dissonance: when people adopt extreme beliefs out of deep discomfort with the truth?I challenge this perspective any time I see it on these forums because it influences the game in negative ways for survivor, and that disturbs me.
Exactly.
Too many people confuse "struggling" with "being max MMR". Some people, unfortunately, struggle to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
It doesn't help that the game has had some very easy strategies to boost people beyond their personal limits as well. Gen kick meta, 3 genning, camping, and tunneling are all pretty sure fire ways to boost MMR beyond someone's actual skill.
Some people struggle when facing average opponents. There's nothing wrong with that. But coming to the devs to complain that the game should be changed to allow you to easily beat people above your skill level is the main problem. And I see that an awful lot on these forums.
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I'm always curious how this is considered a player problem.
Don't mistake me here, there are certainly petty reasons people can disconnect or give up (didn't get the map or killer they wanted, for example). But that's always been the case, for both sides.
This being a more widespread issue as it has been recently isn't an indication of "more players have gotten petty", it's a game problem.
As you said, people tend to think it's not as bad to give up "if the game is over". Well, most games seem to be determined on the first couple minutes anymore. That's not the *players* fault, it's a game balance issue.
If "being found first" means the game is already over and you get 3k BP, that seems like an issue for the devs to fix... Especially if it's gotten bad enough that this many players are realizing that they just aren't getting to play the game.
If "well, unlucky" is all it takes to ruin your match, then the only response survivors have is "go next". It's not like there are actual comeback mechanics that would salvage a bad start for survivors. There's nothing if you don't have a strong start or the killer goes afk instead.
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Sorry for your loss.
If you have any screenshots from the in game chat, you can report them to BHVR. I don't believe there's anything they can do about things not in their game though.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789880#Comment_3789880
They’re at 48%. Which means killers are at 52%. Which means killers at the tippy top of MMR are still winning more than survivors at the tippy top of MMR.
Not to mention that is exclusively a 4 man swf at the top 5% MMR. So about 0.5% of players, at best.
The other 99.5% of players are all drastically lower at 43% escape rate max.
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@totallynotamegmain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789746#Comment_3789746
The fact that survivors and killers have given the easiest counter to a perk combo that doesn’t even use perks plus multiple perks that completely negate the perk combo which practically removes half the killers load out and you just ignore it :(
I play both sides, any time I go against this combo I activate my two reminding brain cells I have (before you twists this into more insults against others this is literally me insulting my own intelligence) I just drop my item in a corner, and then the aura reading the killer has mysteriously disappears 🤔
It's not that the counter is hard. It's that the killer is getting the value of at least two perks while the survivors are "countering" their two perks.
The counter to this combo reveals the survivor, makes the survivor oblivious, and forces them to do something other than gens for 30+ seconds at the start of the game. That's like lethal pursuer, effectively corrupt intervention since they aren't on gens right away, and they're oblivious to boot. Which doesn't even count that they don't get to use their item without even more wasted time traveling and aura reveal.
It's too much.
Or, alternately, I really want a survivor version of this combo. It isn't hard to realize that "not using your killer power" is never going to be a reasonable counter to completely passive perk choices by the opponent.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
Maps aren't even closed to balanced. According to the stats killers hit bloodlust tier one in over 70% of games. The only reason it's not higher is because of the perk Rapid Brutality and certain killer who don't get BL hardly at all, like Doc and Clown. Make killers 120% and we can get rid of Bloodlust altogether.
According to the stats killers hit bloodlust tier one in over 70% of games
Source?
I also doubt that there's any way to discern if bloodlust is needed by map design or if the killer is playing in ways that bloodlust is more common simply from one stat.
For examples: Is this just killers respecting pallets too much unnecessarily? Or is this just a case of things like skull merchant drops a drone at every pallet and the only gameplay is to hold w, which basically forces bloodlust?
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789087#Comment_3789087
The Hook timer was 45 seconds until about halfway through 2017. It got changed with the same patch they removed instant gens and 0 Hook moris.
Still the first change in AGES but it's still funny to think about.
I think 90s hooks would be far too long, that's the same time as a generator. Increasing the hook timer by the same amount the gens were increased is a good spot imo.
Oh that's a long time ago then. I looked for details but I can't find info on the wiki or otherwise about previous objective times.
I know originally gens were 60 seconds I think? So I just assumed 60 seconds hooks were always in play.
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@Dumbtecher said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788962#Comment_3788962
I agree, I‘ve had this exact thought as well. Really wish they would just show us our ratings in the egs. There would be a handful of players insta leaving the egs to avoid showing their ratings lol
There are, in my mind, only two ways to go about this.
You can always hide MMR and never have it be shown. This is how the devs have chosen to do it and imo it's the correct way.
The other option would be to always show MMR. Everywhere. With no option to shut it off. It shows up on the lobby, end game screen, and in game HUD. There's a watermark on every screenshot and recorded video that displays your name and MMR like some places do with NDA content. You're forced to link your game account to the forums, and your MMR is also shown here permanently on every post as well.
If the second option sounds toxic, that's exactly the kind of problem that showing MMR can cause. In addition to just allowing people to manipulate it for easier games (which is what happened with grades back in the day).
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@Aven_Fallen said:
The only bad thing about this change is that it was not done at the same time they increased Gen Time.
If your strategy involves camping basically every time, you will have it harder, yes. But I think most Killers will not notice the difference and it is one of those changes which get complained about and is never mentioned again after a week.
Yeah, I've been saying since before 6.1 released that hook times should be matched to gen times. This is a good step in that direction, even if I still feel it should be 90 seconds.
Still, this is the first time ever that hook times have been increased since the game launched. Gen times have gone up at least twice, and long, long before hook timer was changed. This was way too overdue.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785315#Comment_3785315
When survivors are greeding gens it's good play to secure the hook state. Giving survivors extra time to reset doesn't mean it is unintended. It just means they want to make it easier. It's not a black and white thing. If they didn't want people to do it they would simply make it impossible.
What mental gymnastics is this where standing by the hook for 60 seconds is supposedly some giga brain play? Go chase someone off of a gen and they don't even make that progress.
This is the exact scenario that increasing the hook timer is supposed to target: make the killer think that maybe, just maybe standing by the hook for a full minute or more is probably not the ideal use of their time.
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@Donyjunior said:
And we can see by the names that they were SWF.
Two of them aren't even on the same platform as the other two. You mean the automatic bot names it gives when the bot back fills?
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@MrJack20252 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788964#Comment_3788964
i guess we can't have a civil discussion yet because of malicious assumptions
Your main complaint is wanting "to show off in the lobby", and everything else is mostly complaining about the number of levels.
Since grind and dedication are somehow also part of your complaints, and the only thing that's changed in two years about this system is the removal of a highly abusable lobby shopping situation, then yeah.
This reads exactly like someone who is upset about only the recent change because it directly affects how they want to play the game. By lobby shopping.
If you actually care about showing off prestige, then it's available at the end game. I'm a healthy place where people who complete a match can still see your achievement.
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Killers can, and do, already stand in a corner and go afk until the match ends.
Also, there's no penalty for that either.
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Try recording your matches. It would be helpful to have more than just anecdotal "it feels fast" to justify that huge of a nerf in the game.
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Alternate title: the killer isn't so obscenely broken that you can win 100% of your games with no experience.
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As a scratched mirror Myers enjoyer, I really prefer being able to pick Lery's or Midwich. I'm already planning to go in for fun and not sweat, but it really kinda sucks to go into a match and get something like Autohaven that really doesn't synergize with what I'm trying to do.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788379#Comment_3788379
obviously people do it for trolling, but OP talks about it as if it's meta. It isn't.
It's not meta, but you really can't argue that the perk isn't the problem here.
You only bring knockout for one main reason, and typically people who do bring it play 100% with the slugging "for a ######### experience" play style in mind.
Similar to boil over, tho I can at least say that boil over was dealt with quickly when they considered changing it, and it's also been severely hindered by hooks respawning. No such changes have been made to target slugging like this.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788019#Comment_3788019
Thats because maps were then adjusted to have wider distribution of unsafe pallets (edgemap azarovs for example), making it harder to zone.
Looking at an unupdated map like swamp, zoning is absurdly easy on them maps. I would say brutal and the pallet distribution are an issue when it comes to them.
No, this was entirely part of the general 10% action speed increase for killer in that patch: break speed, blade wipe speed, gen kick speed.
This wasn't compensation for anything at all. Maps have largely gotten smaller and with more dead zones every time they touch one. Hell, you don't even have to worry about breaking hooks anymore it's gotten that easy.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787914#Comment_3787914
If the basekit break speed was buffed by 20%, and then brutal strength was left unchanged, would that be okay? Personally I think changing something and indirectly buffing 5 other things is a bad idea.
It's funny, this is almost exactly what happened in 6.1.0.
Break speed was buffed by 10%, and brutal strength was never changed. Not that I personally feel it needed it, but it's a weird take to choose a scenario that literally happened.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787901#Comment_3787901
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787907#Comment_3787907
If its purely for anti face camp why is the range 16m and not smaller? 8m is enough distance to guarantee an unhook, whats the extra 8m doing on there?
Me thinks the range should be reduced to 8-10m.
The range is 11m and then it disables. It was 16m when tested on the ptb and they nerfed it before going live to be even more useless.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787388#Comment_3787388
Weave + Franklins cough cough
Are you implying that equipping a perk that gives anywhere between 2 and 4 perks with of value is somehow skillful?
Interesting that dead hard (twice), flashbang+bp, FtP+bu, and an entire games worth of mind gameable tiles don't even make your list, but "OMG I equip a perk and get value" for literally zero user input is somehow considered the epitome of skill.
Why not include 3 genning if just playing PvE is the bar we're setting for skill. The bar for killer skill has literally been buried underground at this point, and people are still somehow tripping over it and complaining.
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I mean, just about any perk, item, map, tile, or combo that allowed any kind of outplay has been cried about incessantly and deleted from the game.
Where exactly are you going to find skill expression on, say, haddonfield: a tiny shoe box with nothing but dead zones?
Your post seems less about actual skill expression and more of a back handed attempt to complain about survivors wanting to go next. Which, ironically enough, when you delete most every form of skill expression, it shouldn't be surprising that people are less inclined to play the game on the losing team.
You go play killer, which similarly has lost skill expression, but instead you can slam your face on the keyboard and average out a 60% kill rate instead.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786307#Comment_3786307
You just can’t have tiny maps and spread out gens. Killers complained (and still do) about map sizes, so they’re reduced. But that has the unexpected consequence of producing natural 3-gens. I think it’s absurd for the devs to rely on some sort of honor system among killers that they won’t exploit these inborn map 3-gens. And even with the anti-3-gen feature, the game is usually over before a killer reaches the limit. Personally, I’ve never understood why survivors are so quiet about these nonsensical changes.
I think people have given up hope by the time the map leaves the ptb. We've had a long, long track record now of maps that either didn't get touched again, or somehow got worse after feedback.
RPD reworks addressed almost nothing for survivors (3 gens still base kit here), corn maps are basically just dead zones now in general and the tractor loops got deleted, haddonfield gets worse every time they touch it. Maps like Ormond, shattered square, and eyrie simply got smaller without getting any better.
The only map that might've had hope was midwich, and they basically just deleted a couple breakable walls and tweaked the exit gates. Thanks, that fixes none of the map's core issues.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786407#Comment_3786407
I don't think anyone wants Survivors to be swatted over giving up. They just want them to play the game they queued up for.
If you abandon the game early, then you should get a DC penalty, for either side.
Again, if you think that playing a match to it's conclusion is suffering, then I'd advise finding a different thing to do.
There's a huge variance in responses. Clearly being audited and swatted are hyperbole, but there are absolutely people who think that the player should suffer some real life consequences. The biggest one being "ban them".
There are a disturbing number of players in this forum who see it as their personal mission to dole out judgement as they see fit. And many of those players get insanely angry when survivors move on to the next match without asking the killer for permission first.
I see a lot of these survivor players as being burned out on the game and not realizing it yet. That's what happened to me right around the skull merchant release, and I eventually took a break from the game for a bit. Still refuse to touch survivor, because it's not gotten any better, so when I do play I play killer exclusively now.
And for players who are in the burnout phase, screaming for punishment is not going to help them. They will eventually stop playing, but an actual ban will just mean they never return to try the game again later.
And if the primary reasons for the burnout and frustration are core gameplay issues: such as not getting to play if you're the first one found, or having to complete 12 gens worth of progress to even try to escape, then there are certainly things that should be looked at. None of those things get any better by punishing the player because the state of the game is garbage.
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@TiredDBDenjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786394#Comment_3786394
I mean sure this sucks too but it's not like the Killer has any teammates that completely has their experience ruined by them doing this, in addition to it just being a free win for the Survivors.
The biggest issue that was completely in the killers control is lobby dodging. That actually ruined the game for 5 other players, not just 4.
It took them a year after testing the feature to finally hide prestige, so it's unlikely we'll get anything more to combat lobby dodging any time soon.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786406#Comment_3786406
Root causes? More than half of them are just "I don't love to go against # killer". Tell me how you want to solve this? Delete killer role is fantastic way for you, I know, but what if we need they to stay? I hate going against Spirit from the bottom of my heart, but I don't remember I throw any game without trying in 5 years.
I had a lot of teammates give up on hook in the middle of really close amazingly interesting games for 0 real reasons. Root cause here is many survivors hate even trying to survive and prefer gen sim to anything else, how are you about solving this?
Truth is that community is a spoiled child and now, of course, any normal measures will be painful. But solving this "root causes" is also not an option, because we already have survivors throwing matches for any tiny reason, and no matter how much you will try to solve any of them, of course there will always be new ones. This is simply what spoiled child is. And sooner or later he needs to be told "enough is enough".The single most, biggest root cause of this issue is tunneling. Hands down, full stop, that's the #1 issue at play here.
I won't deny that people sometimes have petty reasons for wanting to go next, but that has always been the case. That's not the real reason at play here, because it's suddenly become a much, much bigger problem, and pettiness doesn't explain that big of an uptick.
The reason tunneling is the core issue here is because it means that someone doesn't get to play the game. The survivor gets maybe 5k BP and a whole lot of wasted time. And when people start to realize that being unlucky and being found first is a sure fire way to not be able to play, the only logical answer is to "just go next".
And the mindset of "the game is decided in the first couple minutes" has been the driving force of basically every balance patch for two years now. It's no surprise, then, that people realize the game is over on first down and the only real option is to try again next match.
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Circle of healing needs to have self care back again, but only if you're running the perk.
The self care wasn't the problem, it was 4 people getting self care from 1 perk. If all 4 survivors run circle, there's no reason it shouldn't allow self care for the survivors who brought the perk.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786394#Comment_3786394
Maybe, but this is far less common than Survivors giving up on the hook. I don't think the Killer going AFK in a corner is good for the game either.
Even if you make it impossible to give up on hook, Survivors can still technically just stand still until the killer kills them. However, it's generally less likely to happen. Doing nothing is boring, and the human brain likes stimulus.
I'm pretty sure they also made it so that it auto-disconnects you as a Killer if you're AFK for an extended period of time. Not sure if that only applies from the beginning, though.
It's not common, but the typical "killer response" on the forums to "this game sucks" is to threaten the devs with crap like "the game requires 1 killer to function for every 4 survivors, so give us what we want or we all quit".
When survivors have a ######### experience, there's a common sentiment of "the players just need to suffer more, that'll fix it".
The entire point of me bringing up the afk killer is that no one has ever looked at that scenario and gone rabid and insisted that the killer should be banned, audited, and/or swatted for it. And yet we have basically that sentiment here in this thread for survivors. It's ridiculous.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786368#Comment_3786368
Unfun slog is what happened now due to every Feble or Kataela player feel completely free to kill themselves on hook and go to next ruin another game, then after 10 matches like these go here and cry about poor soloq and its escape rate.
Unfun slog is when another Feng give up at first hook, then turns out she gave up to baby Doctor I run for 3 gens with 2 people on gens and we lost anyway, when it clearly could be a win even with bot instead of Feng.
This hardcore desire of die hard survivors to defend people throwing matches and continue to cry about "soloq state" is what I will never get behind.And literally none of those things get better if you ignore any of the root causes and are just out to punish survivor players.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786374#Comment_3786374
Why is this a "killer main this, survivor main that" thing?
I think it's a reasonable expectation that when people ready up and play a multiplayer game, that they have to play the match to its conclusion. That's why disconnect/abandon penalties are a thing.
The only reason it's focused on Survivors is that they're the only role with a way to leave the match early outside of disconnecting. If Killer players could open the gates at 5 gens, that wouldn't be good for the game either.
Killers can and do just go stand in a corner until the survivors leave. Don't even have to be at your keyboard for that, and .. oh look, zero consequences there too.
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@fussy said:
That what you have when you allow to your players to throw matches without any punishment. I don't think any other PvP game be like "Yeah, just throw it match in a trashcan for 4 other players and try to have fun in another match. Or maybe throw another one. Or two. Or hundred. We don't care.".
Ok.
So the devs have made the game an unfun slog for enough of the player base that the game is starting to shatter.
"Let's punish them" doesn't solve any of the root issues here, and is a great way to kill the game.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
It's allready being adressed in few months (confirmed in road map) and I am pretty sure they won't buff this perk since it's allready meta/popular.
I have to say this combo is pretty annoying to go againts and I tested this combo myself few matches and it's pretty effective.
…however, if Survivors didn't bring so offten pretty much 3-4 people loaded with items every match, this combo wouldn't be strong or popular at all. It's effective because survivors in a way allow it to be.
But of course, punishing people this much for just using items is like punishing killers who use any kind of add-ons with some penatly, which is stupid of course.
Survivor items are already limited charge and effectively the analogue to killer power.
If there were a perk combo for survivors where the answer was "just never use your killer power" I think that would be equally ridiculous.
Think about what you're actually saying here for two whole seconds.
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Just make it 2 minutes. If the survivors haven't completed 5 gens in 2 minutes the killer clearly deserves a free 4k.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785278#Comment_3785278
You're a frequent guest at Hens chat, which do a lot of tourney, and you still believe that killers feel like they have to camp only because survivors are better, not because pressure the map on some not strongest killers is obviously just throwing the game due the fact that survivors are way more time effective than killers without mobility and strong chase power? Wow.
I will be really glad to see how 70sec hook stage affects tourneys and will force killers leave a hook and get destroyed in 80-90% matches or make possible to run 4 slowdowns even on S tier killers just to balance it out. Or just better decision will be to put on pink glasses and say that they are out of their play area after every lose on tourney. Get gut, tourney killers 😎
You seem confused. Mandy is saying that the average killer player can use tools like camping or tunneling and get themselves in over their head relatively easily.
You're conflating that with "all camping is due to this" which isn't at all what she said.
At comp level, camping and tunneling is still the most efficient way to play the game, so killers will do those things. Just like gen rushing, pre dropping, and running to comp corner are the most efficient ways to play survivor at that level.
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They already reworked like adepts once, since you used to have to get 4 iridescent badges in the match. It used to require something like at least 10 hooks to get.
Now it's literally just a 4k. That's it.
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We heard nothing but incessant complaining for months that permanent move speed completely breaks the game.
So no.
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Scott Jund did a community poll about tunneling a little bit ago. He worded it a bit strangely, but the result is still useful:
He asked "how often are you tunneled in games" and the result was something like 27%. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but it is exactly in line with perk pick rates. Especially since perk pick rates are literally just asking the same question: "how often are you running X perk in your games?"
Which puts tunneling as more common than every survivor perk except windows. So it's possible you won't have it in your games, but you'd expect it more often than any other meta survivor perk in the game.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784855#Comment_3784855
Did you even read what i wrote?
let me copy paste some of my replies from before :
First off, 80% of survivors just stand around and waste time at the exit gate when they've already won. So, I don't see how slugging is a real issue here, other than the fact that it seems like it's only a problem because 'it's not fun when survivors aren't in control.
Team A has been dragging time from Team B for ages, and now that Team B is doing the same, suddenly Team A isn’t having fun anymore? It’s a bit ironic, honestly.
It's not anyone else's responsibility to fix your actions, nor can they be held accountable for them. - Suggesting that is just toxic. So please stop pushing blame on the killer for the exit gate camping, this is purely on the survivors..
Its kind of tireing that a lot of survivor mains think its ok, and even trying to downplay or even push the responsibility for the exit gate camping to the killer, and over-dramatizatize the bleedouts.
First off, 80% of survivors just stand around and waste time at the exit gate when they've already won. So, I don't see how slugging is a real issue here, other than the fact that it seems like it's only a problem because 'it's not fun when survivors aren't in control.
Completely invented statistic aside, I don't ever teabag at the gate, and I'm usually only waiting around to make sure the team is also making it out ok. Being a good teammate isn't toxic. The killer also has the base kit ability to hit survivors out of the exit gate. No such things exists for slugging, since the survivor has no agency.
Team A has been dragging time from Team B for ages, and now that Team B is doing the same, suddenly Team A isn’t having fun anymore? It’s a bit ironic, honestly.
The US vs them is off the charts here. The answer is to be the bigger person and at least try to stop the cycle of toxicity. As I said before, I don't teabag at the exit gates, but I've certainly been slugged for no reason while the slinger shoots the air, huntress his my body with hatchets, or listened to an incessant bell for about 4 minutes.
Its kind of tireing that a lot of survivor mains think its ok, and even trying to downplay or even push the responsibility for the exit gate camping to the killer, and over-dramatizatize the bleedouts.
I'm just going to address the "overdramatize" part here, cause I feel like that other poster is off topic. But slugging is absolutely a problem. People, including you I'll add, lose their minds when survivors hold the exit gates open. And the killer has full agency: you can go afk if you want, you can earn BP by spamming your power, breaking walls and pallets, all while ignoring the toxicity. You can go hit them out the door or maybe force a late game mistake that gets you extra kills.
Slugged survivors have zero agency beyond crawling around. No BP, no chance of escape, can't even play the game. And it's twice as long when the killer does this, since EGC is only 2 minutes.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782967#Comment_3782967
You clearly haven't understood what I said. In my experience literally every single match where the team escape, the team will wait by the gates regardless of what is going on. If someone is slugged half way across the map the other survivors wait by the gates and tea bag. That is waiting 4min by choice for the players at the gate. It usually happens when I go a killer I'm not familiar with so end up losing badly but survivors will wait out the timer fine when they are the ones winning. They only don't like it when they are losing. I don't mind waiting the 2min or 4min (I have to wait that time regardless because I can't move on to the next game until the slugged survivor dies) but the point is survivors choose to wait when they can escape.
I'm not understanding this because you're making up a non existent scenario.
Let me put it another way: in the EGC the killer always has an option. Always. You can go earn BP by breaking walls, pallets, spamming your power for 2 minutes. You can go hit them at the gate and force them out even.
A slug on the ground has literally zero options for 4 minutes. You can crawl around a bit. You can't earn BP, you can't escape, can't get back up.
And I'm confused by your contrived scenario here. You appear to be making up some "never happens" situation to force the EGC timer to be 4 minutes. Hook the slug, force them out (in any order) and the game ends. A slugged survivor does not have any of those options. Period.
And this is the now third time you've changed your argument. We went to "but survivors" (whataboutism) to trying to invent a scenario where the poor killer has such a bad time. You've already fully, completely, and entirely conceded the initial point that having no autonomy whatsoever for 4 minutes is pretty damn bad, and should have a base kit way to speed it up.
Killers, by the way, already have this since hooking, hitting survivors of the gate, are already base kit. Killers also never lose autonomy outside of very very short stuns, not 4 minutes at a time.
So I'm done with this conversation, since I've made my point tenfold by now, and you seem to have zero interest in having a genuine discussion at this point.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784052#Comment_3784052
I think no one can agree on a solution because some killers feel that a game that has massively gone in their favour from start to finish, they counter the constant loops, deal with mind games, get the hooks required to off 2 survivors, basically work hard for the whole match to have 1 survivor that may very well have done nothing the whole time gets a free escape via hatch. It's not surprising that a killer might feel this is an injustice. But yet survivors feel they deserve a chance at a win even tho they essentially lost the match. Why would a survivor want to give up the possibility of a free escape at the end? I know if I'm a survivor I love the fact no matter what happens if I can stay out the way for long enough I could get an easy win via the hatch.
It is strange that many say about the killer wanting the 4k and the free kills.... If the killer really wanted that then they would avoid downing or hooking the last 2 survivors until absolutely necessary to try get server time to end. That would result in both survivors being killed at the same giving the 4k. Would be fairly easy especially when survivors wait so long hiding. When the killer finds them they can waste a little more time messing with them without actually downing them. But that's not what happens. They slug or hook the 3rd player which gives 2/4min to find the other survivor. This says to me it's not about the 4k at all.
I'm not talking about slugging for the 4k here.
Most, if not all of the proposed solutions I've seen basically boil down to "reveal the survivors to the killer". At which point, yes, if there are only 2 survivors and just about any number of gens remaining, that results in a 4k for the killer. You trying to justify it as "but the killer worked hard" sure, for the two kills they already got. That doesn't entitle someone to 2 more because of a new mechanic.
Finding survivors is a part of the game. It's a responsibility and skill for the killer to do that, which is why there are a ton of perks, powers, base kit mechanics, and add-ons that make this easier.
There's a huge spectrum here, where some people may genuinely not be able to find any of the 2 remaining survivors in extremely rare cases. But much more common are the killers who don't leave their gens or can't figure out how to open a locker. My personal favorite from these very forums was a guy who claimed he spent 35 minutes searching, and they were both in the basement. How do you not check the basement for half an hour? There's some kind of game sense or skill issue that comes into play here as well, and people do not want to hear that part.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783184#Comment_3783184
Stop turning this into "oh they just want a 4k" no it's what people complain about, wasting time for no good reason.
The complaints are valid. Holding games hostage isn't ok, and it would be nice to have a way to address it.
It's the proposed solutions that largely fit into handing the killer dead simple, essentially free kills, which would almost always turn 2k's into automatic 4k's.
I have yet to see anyone propose a solution to this problem that both solves the issue and essentially doesn't boil down to free kills, or at least giga buffs slugging for the 4k.
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I mean, just about anything is ok if the other team can tell you're at least trying to play fair.
I'll slug if the person off hook crosses my path again. It's either intentional, so they get a nice bit of time to think about their choices while DS counts down, or it's an accident and I try to let them know I'm not intentionally tunneling by leaving them. I'll even leave the area so someone can be nice enough to get off a gen and come help them up. Free slowdown for intentionally not tunneling sounds like everyone wins.