AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883038#Comment_3883038
You have made several posts attempting to defend positions that are indefensible.
Additionally there are a plethora of reasons slugging is happening. The list that was given by @Reinami is not an opinion. It is a fact. These things do not exist as figments of the imagination and are in fact things killers have to deal with. You and others try to argue "it's not thaaaaaaat bad" and i'm sorry but you are wrong. It IS in fact that bad and all of those things together are the reason slugging will continue to become more popular.
Is slugging perfect? No. Do i think survivors could bleed out faster? Yeah, for sure. Do I think the instances where the killer is forced to keep multiple survivors on ground for minutes while they wait for the hooked survivor to hit the second stage is good? Hell no (when all survivors are either hooked or slugged the killer should be able to mori all the slugged survivors so everyone can move on to the next match). The general hatred for slugging is stupid though. It is a chase centric playstyle, with a far more natural focus on slowdown. The slowdown comes from knockout rather than forced gen regression perks.There is nothing at all wrong with the playstyle. The mechanics surrounding it could be improved but the game has been repeatedly pushed in this direction for long enough now, that one can say with near certainty that this is an intentional decision from the developers. When I play Killer I am DEFINITLY haveing more fun than before. Games are so much less stressful and I can focus more on the part of the game that is the most fun, the chases.
People said very similar things about hatch before the hatch rework.
Going into a lobby with keys, and the intention to get everyone out with the hatch was absolutely a thing, and it bypassed the entire exit gate/end game. People only cared about the win, and were skipping the clearly intended gameplay loop of finishing all the gens then exiting through the gates, with hatch as an absolute last resort.
They finally patched out that issue and now people are forced to play for exit gates if they want more than one person out.
The exact same thing is happening with slugging right now. People going into the match with the express intention of not hooking, and wanting to win by slugging everyone to bleed out. Skipping the entire hook gameplay loop, which is clearly the intended gameplay design.
And similarly, it's not a problem to slug situationally (as a last resort), but if l when it becomes "always slug, all the time, no exceptions" that's a problem the devs need to address. The game is designed around hooks, the lore requires sacrifices, and the devs should be putting something similar in place to hatch rework to prevent this being a "meta/5 gens/win the game" strategy people can decide to do from the lobby.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882855#Comment_3882855
Yeah, it's really pointless to even discuss it with these people. By arguing against all these Survivor perks, they're just reiterating what Pulsar's been saying, whether they want to admit it or not: They choose slugging because it's the path of least resistance. That's literally all there is to it. And I doubt any kinds of buffs or nerfs for either side would fix that kind of mentality…
There might be one thing, actually: just tie all of the base kit regression effects to having a recent hook state. Almost all of the killers doing this are absolutely obsessed with regression.
So, put an icon on the UI with an, I dunno 60?, second timer that counts down. Getting a hook resets the timer, and the icon deactivates when it hits 0. It can even start the match active and counting down.
While it's active, killer kicks are empowered, and get the 5% chunk, and anti gen tap is applied to that gen. If it's disabled, the gen doesn't lose the 5%, and survivors can just tap to stop the regression.
Make them earn the free regression they were given by hooking.
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Neither of these options is perfect, and they kind of target different things. The big reasons I don't like the base kit unbreakable option is that A) it's potentially abusable, and B) the devs have already tested it and said they won't do it.
Letting survivors bleed out if at most one survivor is standing (3 are dead, slugged, or hooked) isn't abusable at least. It's also potentially a weak enough option in some cases that the devs might actually consider it.
Let's compare some target slugging scenarios:
"For the 4k": letting survivors bleed out just shortens an already lost game. It doesn't change the outcome of the game, and respects the players time. UB drags out this scenario while the killer plays whack a mole for longer than 4 minutes until someone actually bleeds out.
"Toxic slugging" (getting humped on the ground): bleedout gets you out of that scenario. UB just means you get knocked back on the ground the instant you stand up.
"Excessive slugging" (at 5 gens, or "instead of hooks"): is relatively new, and bleedout might encourage this slightly more, but this is the only scenario that UB actually works in.
You could potentially do both options, or in reality, since the devs are not likely to change their minds on base kit UB, we need a new, third option that solves these problems. Having one or infinite uses of unbreakable doesn't really change these either.
Honestly, since the excessive slugging option is a player mentality issue, I'm not sure what a good solution would look like that isn't also abusable in other situations.
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@Iabloko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881821#Comment_3881821
I'd like to clarify the situation—I haven’t said anything about WGLF.
Yesterday I wrote a lengthy post dedicated to all the changes affecting hook-oriented perks for both Killers and Survivors. Unfortunately, my post was deleted.
In short, since version 6.1.0, all Killer perks that revolve around hooks have been nerfed—Dead Man's Switch, Grim Embrace, Pain Resonance, Pop Goes the Weasel, etc.
Conversely, all Survivor perks centered on hooks have been buffed—Babysitter, Borrowed Time, Resurgence, and so on.
As you correctly pointed out, some of the nerfs have been offset by additions to the core gameplay mechanics.
Here’s my opinion:
- Let’s accept the fact that both sides want to win.
- In order to win, you need to choose an optimal tactic that, over the long run, will yield more wins than losses.
For some Killers, the slagging tactic currently produces the best results because:
- Killer perks oriented around hooks have been nerfed.
- All Survivor perks oriented around hooks have been buffed.
- Tactics like tunneling, camping, and proxy camping are no longer effective.
- Once hooked, a Survivor has too many perks that can make them nearly invulnerable—for example, the combination of Off the Record and Dead Hard.
- Slagging allows you to skip roughly 20 seconds and immediately go in search of another Survivor.
The slagging tactic became more popular after the 8th anniversary.
Conclusion:
I don’t know what rank you’re playing at or which character you use—maybe you’re just a forum fighter. At my rank (I only play as The Huntress), games rarely last more than 7–8 minutes. On average, I manage 1–3 hooks, sometimes 1–2 kills, and very rarely do I get 3-4 kills (if Survivors end up killing themselves on the hook).
I understand why some Killers prefer slagging—it allows you to play the game on your own terms.These are just post hoc excuses.
You spend an awful lot of time with mental gymnastics to explain why people are slugging more to come to the conclusion that "but people aren't slugging more". Pick one.
I use WGLF as an instructive example. Basically, the way I see your argument (and others) is simply "if you buff killers (or give back previous nerfs) this wouldn't be happening". Which is not only not why this is happening, it's also a total lie. We've had years of the same thing "if you nerf (dead hard, maps, pallets, MFT, medkits, CoH, prove, BNP, and the list goes on) then killers won't have to tunnel and camp". Yet tunneling and camping is still meta, still an issue.
So I flip it, and ironically claim that "WGLF being nerfed" is the reason slugging increased recently. It's certainly a more recent change than anything you mentioned, but it would be a survivor buff, so you probably can't even consider that for a second.
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@Iabloko said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880574#Comment_3880574
I don't understand why it's not different, maybe you haven't played 2-3 years ago, or you have memory problems? A few years ago there weren't so many second chance perks, and the killer was REWARDED for the hook, the same pop goes the weasel - was USEFUL
This is just post hoc rationalisation and making excuses. Nothing about perks changed in the past roughly 6+ months before this started being a thing.
The only change that occurred anywhere near the time this started is the extra 10 seconds hook timer (8.2.0 - august 2024). Which, by the way, only comes into play if the killer is camping or lurking near hook to tunnel. Suddenly all of the complaints about instant unhooking to keep killer pressure at a minimum are forgotten and people lose their minds because they can't conceive of not camping or tunneling in this game.
As for pop, this is the ultimate excuse and is absolutely. Not. The reason people are slugging in any way. Here's a timeline for pgtw in about the past year:
6.1 (July 2022): 20% of current + 2.5% total (base kit) this version was still meta for years and "the best regression available" after they fixed cobruption.
7.0 (may 2023): 30% of current and 2.5% total (base kit)
7.5 (January 2024): 30% current and 5% total (base kit)
8.0 (may 2024): 20% of current and 5% of total (base kit)
The version we have now (8.0+) is objectively better than when it was considered a meta perk and one of the best in 6.1.0. There's also been no change to pop in almost a year, so there's zero excuse for it to be included in a recent "slugging meta" in the past couple months.
If you're going to lie about the reasons, then WGLF was buffed in 8.3.0 (September 2024) and then the extra bonus healing slugged survivors speed was then nerfed soon after back to 100% (8.3.2 in October 2024). Which is just about when this all started.
Seems like if we're just going to say anything on this topic then WGLF changes had far more to do with this than pop ever did. (Which is still probably not much imo, but this while argument of yours and similar ones from others is just simply wrong).
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@UndeddJester said:
Meh, my advice would be play to improve your skills and your fundamentals, don't play to win. Try to win sure, but don't play with winning as your primary goal.
Playing meta perks and strats constantly makes you reliant and lazy. Take weak killers, experiment with all kinds of add-ons and perks, make silly builds and don't fallback to excessive slugging and tunneling constantly. You can win with these things, they are tools in your toolbox, but if you allow yourself to always take the easy path to victory, you won't have an extra gear to turn up to when you need it.
If you play for self growth rather than wins: -
- The outcome of the match doesn't matter
- Hatch doesn't matter
- Teabags don't matter
- Bull squads don't matter
- Arrogant end game chat warriors who think they're something special for escaping vs. A Pig with Iron Maiden don't matter
- Salty biscuits who whine against a Trapper running Distressing/Unnerving Presense don't matter
Its amazing how much more fun the game becomes when you get impressed by survivors playing well and teaching you something, instead of getting mad you lost.
This 100%.
I remember games where I deliberately chased the "best survivor" so I could improve. Didn't really care if I lost the game because in the long run I learned something.
Everyone complains about "weak M1" killers, but if you can learn to chase and macro well on trapper, that knowledge and game sense applies to every single other killer in the game.
Although, I'll also note that there are a disturbingly large number of people on this forum who have the mindset that they're already gods at the game ("Max MMR") and their ego insists that they can't possibly learn anything more.
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@Tsanders said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881524#Comment_3881524
What's going to happen is the killer then has to play whack a mole until one person bleeds out, or most likely just camp the slug so you can't get back up anyway.
Literally just hook the survivors you down and this is not an issue. Sure the last person might get hatch but you still won.
I mean, I personally don't bother slugging for the 4k and hook.
But the entire reason this is meta is killers who are trying to deny hatch. If people were hooking the 3rd, then this wouldn't even be a conversation at all.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881520#Comment_3881520
and then also made sure every new Killer had an oppressive chase power to deal with nerfed loops and and maps?
I'm fully of the opinion that the "go next" problem is a game health issue, and is a key indicator that the target 60% kill rate is probably too much. There's a ton that contributes to that, but just about every patch has pushed the game that direction since about 6.1.0.
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As much as I dislike slugging for the 4k, this kind of suggestion only drags out an already lost game.
What's going to happen is the killer then has to play whack a mole until one person bleeds out, or most likely just camp the slug so you can't get back up anyway.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881515#Comment_3881515
Just yesterday one of my solo queue teammates used dramaturgy around 0 resources. He died from exposed and started to spam attempt on hook. Them another teammate tried to stop them, farmed them and they both died. Every single time its because they experience something really annoying from the killers arsenal, or they make an embarrassingly bad mistake and pout to themself before either dcing or kysing. Its always for these reasons. Or cus they don't have any awareness and can't look at their HUD's ti see 2 gens basically about to pop. Its so annoying to have these egotistical players in your lobby, they think they can just run away from intended game features that they have control over
Nothing about your suggestion, though, even begins to "incentivize them to see that hope is not lost". At best, it's simply a nerf, and at worst you're just removing a literal aspect of hope (that you might be able to self rescue if you get really lucky).
It's targeting a symptom, not a core issue.
Did you ever think that maybe if they hadn't reworked maps, nerfed tile spawn logic, added tons of dead zones, and added a ton of unsafe pallets that player may not have been in a situation to have "zero resources nearby"?
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@VibranToucan said:
Knockout is used in 1.7% of all recorded games. Meaning, statistically speaking, if you play 1000 games you see it on average in 17 matches.
What changed to encourage slugging?
Shoulder the Burden was added, Decisive Strike was buffed, sabotage was buffed, hook times were increased, Flashbangs are allowed to stay bugged in the game, perks that encourage hooking (pain res, pop, grim embrace) are nerfed meanwhile perks that punish trying to hook either get buffed (for example Flashbang) or get compensation buffs if they do get changed (for example Background Player)
Nope.
It's easy to do, and hard to counter. And content creators started promoting it.
That's the entire reason right there.
All of those changes were about 6 months before this "slugging meta" began, and are just the typical excuse of "if you buff me and nerf them this will go away". That has never worked for camping and tunneling, and won't work here either.
The only thing that will work is what they've done with other similar bully style "strategies" that aren't intended by normal gameplay, like 3 genning for an hour, intending to escape via hatch as a team from the lobby, and double locker saves. Those took a base kit mechanic to make it impossible to pull off indefinitely to finally kill those "strategies" too.
What that looks like, I don't know. But BHVR send to be looking into this problem.
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@jokere98 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880595#Comment_3880595
If we use the exact same disingenuous logic as almost every recent thread on slugging (including this one) then the answer is "because WGLF got nerfed".they "nerfed" it by making it trigger every time you pick someone up (with 30s CD) instead of requiring you to take a protection hit/save before picking someone up? (and then you need to repeat it to activate the perk again) 🤨
I think you missed the "disingenuous" part.
My point being that if your only focus is to "get the devs to buff your side" you can cherry pick any change and claim it's the "reason this is happening now".
And no, I don't personally think WGLF has anything to do with this, nor do I think any of the other changes people claim are the reason l either.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880634#Comment_3880634
and he is completely right lol.
Grim Embrace and DMS are the only truly efficient hook based perks nowadays. Pain Res has dropped out of meta with the final kick from 25% to 20%.
On the other side, the strongest survivor perks (Deli, OTR, DS, Babysitter, Reassurance, Resurgence, Second Wind StB etc.) are all hook based, plus some base game changes to hooks have made them even stronger for survivor side, meaning hooking a survivor is more of a punishment than reward, unless you are able to tunnel someone out considerably fast into the match.
Resurgence? Really?
These are all post hoc excuses for this behavior, and, surprised Pikachu, it all seems to point to "buff killer" or "nerf survivor".
The idea of "buff me or I'll keep making people's games miserable" is bully mentality. And while I'll freely admit that not everyone who slugs is doing it out of spite, there absolutely is a group who does it for exactly that reason.
We had similar problems with 3 genning, and even double locker saves. And, rightly so, the solutions the devs implemented were base kit mechanics that outright prevented the excessive use of those cough "strategies". Not "buff them". The same kind of thing should be coming, though what it looks like I don't know yet.
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There are only two reasons:
It's easy to do and hard to counter.
Content creators started promoting it.
Everything else in your list is more than 6 months before any real issues occurred, and are only there because this community on the forums largely believes that "we'll keep making people's games miserable until you buff us" is somehow a good way to convince the devs to change the game or fix perceived issues.
Until this literally bully mentality. The true reason slugging occurs for a lot of people is simply to make people miserable and take advantage of the imbalance of the power role in the game. We saw the same exact thing with the 3 gen meta.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
Just want to say - a lot of misconception of slugging taking less skill or effort - that's just nonsense. The most skill based part of DBD isn't doing gens, it's not carrying survivors to hook, it's chases. For survivors it's the ability to hold a chase the longest, for killers it's the ability to end the chase the fastest. Slugging doesn't negate this. If anything, you have to have quick chases just to make it work.
This is literally the definition of "less effort" and exactly one of the primary reasons this is a slugging meta.
You're cutting out obvious gameplay of hooking, at minimum, to "save yourself the trouble". That's the definition of less effort.
Pulsar nailed this on the head: any strategy that is easy to execute and difficult to counter will be gravitated toward. And this fits both. It heavily relies on the survivor team panicking and falling apart, usually using perks to help facilitate that.
The video even acknowledged this. Although he comes so close to understanding that "getting in chase is more fun". Sure, but you don't have to stand at the hook waiting either. He's basically saying "camping can be boring, but I refuse to use BBQ and leave, so I'm just going to not hook, demand buffs, and play the game in a way that's obviously unintended". He's close to understandibg that map pressure means forcing survivors off gens, but with the added lazy step of "I'm just going to never hook".
I compare the slugging meta to the old hatch. It was fine to use situationally, but when people started building around it, and intending to use it as the win condition in the lobby it becomes a huge problem. In fact, the old hatch was literally "skip doing gens, just use a key to escape". Skipping the entire gen wasn't the intended way to play, and they nerfed it hard, but did fix that problem. They're going to have to do something just as drastic for excessive sligging in the long run.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880461#Comment_3880461
Slugging is also no different than it was years ago, and Knockout has been in the game since 2017, so ask yourself why only now it is becoming the predominant strategy.
so ask yourself why only now it is becoming the predominant strategy.
If we use the exact same disingenuous logic as almost every recent thread on slugging (including this one) then the answer is "because WGLF got nerfed".
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@NarkoTri1er said:
let's go one by one:
Respawning the hooks when it wasn't a problem to begin with.. if its the survivors fault they 3-gened then it's the killers fault they used up the only hook nearby
although i agree hook respawns significantly impacted the skill aspect of actually strategizing hook placement, this change was rather implemented for the reason to avoid forced bleeding out.
Making it so the gen has to have 5% progress put back into it before it can stop regressing and conveniently pain resonance + grim embrace/dead man's switch is perfect for covering the gen faster then you can stop the regression
counterweight for gen tapping being removed is max of 8 regression events per gen. Pain Res used to be obnoxiously powerful with Grim, but after the latest nerf, it's...here and there.
granting the ability to mori the last survivor which is undeserved being most killers leave the 3th down to search for the 4th also it's not fair to the last survivor when they haven't been hooked/seen all game then get moried at the end
although slugging for mori is very cringe, when last survivor gets downed, it's basically game over for them no matter the amount of hook states (unless they have Deliverance for 1st hook, but that's just unnecessary waste of time since killer would camp the hook to be sure they down survivor as soon as they Deli off the hook).
Almost every event recently only really benefited the killers example this past haunted by daylight they made it so the killer knew you were in the void made them undetectable and made it so they could use their powers but they took away the ability to use exhaustion perks for survivors cmon that's 3 ups for the killer and 1 down for the survivor I know they gave us the smoke crystal but it blinded us just as much as the killer I ran into a wall more times then I want to admit
Haunted by Daylight is still very much survivor sided if we take it into the mind that both sides actively enter the void to use their charges. Why? Because it's a deadzone for killer and a place where they put 0 pressure on the map, meaning survivors are free to do gens while killer is in the void. Not to mention that entering the void is still a brutally good way to e.g. waste Oni's power. It was even more obnoxious for the killer during the previous Haunted by Daylight since no powers worked in the void at all.
They made alert pretty much useless against undetectable killers including stake out but watered down distortion so if my token gets consumed by lethal pursuer and killer has bbq/ friends til the end I'm screwed
you won't really bump up into undetectable killers that much often, and even if you do, it's gonna be Myers, Wraith or Ghostface, which are not even difficult to play against.
I believe they changed ruin back so now it stays active even if someone dies (at least the last time I didn't die first ruin was still active) mind you ruin keeps me from using blast mine.. also as soon as I let the gen go even by mistake it sets it back 5% ik it's not a lot but every second counts
nag, Ruin still deactivates after first kill. Are you sure you weren't playing against Ruin + Undying? Maybe Undying was left lit, but you thought it was Ruin.
There's so many perks now that help the killer find you as if it was even hard it's ridiculous how someone gets found within 30 secs into the match and it's even more ridiculous how a killer can get the ability to kill at 5 gens with devour hope (Ik it's a hex it can be broken same as ruin but I've spent so much time trying to find it and couldn't)
yes but they help them find you, not win a chase against you. Unless we are talking about NTH and Predator, especially on Nurse.
The killers have 3 ups they have their power. Their add-ons (some very strong add-ons) and perks and Ik it's always been like that but it gets more difficult when you give them a power and an ability AKA turning into bats to bypass pallets/windows or picking/preventing you from dropping a pallet.. survivors do have items but 1 toolbox on a gen with the best add-ons isn't really going to do anything if my teammates myself included keep getting hooked plus Franklin's + weaving atonement + 4 items that's a killers wet dream and the fact any teleporting killer can teleport back to the hook immediately after someone gets saved is a major problem
toolboxes are the fastest way to finish the match, but you have no use of them if you don't know to stealth properly. Medkits tho are still the strongest survivor item.
The face-camping mechanism (I called it an anti-camping bar but someone corrected me even though if a killer is smart which most are they know not to get too close bc that bar is in place) doesn't help as much as they thought I've seen plenty of times the killer stood back far enough knowing it wouldn't trigger the mechanism.. in some cases I believe it is okay to camp like if it's 2 gens and you've got no hooks but too many killers camp at 5-4 gens and too many killers immediately come back to the hook I get that the camping bar doesn't help that but if killer comes back to the hook penalize them for it by deducting points
anti-facecamp meter was designed to prevent toxic use of camping, aka. "i hooked you and now i'm gonna watch you die there", it's not designed to be basekit counter to a legit strategy. Not to mention that anti-facecamp mechanic usage is prohibited in most tourneys.
Ik the swift teams are getting out of hand and Ik they strengthen these perks for 4 man teams but soloq is getting almost unbearable to play and let's not forget the slugging bit that's been going on for years with so many complaints backing it but I guess respawning the already used hook was a bigger issue even though there's already so many hooks in fact breaking a hook for someone doesn't work a lot of the time because they just take them to a different hook
there are many player related factors other than game balance that get into the equation of why soloQ is unbearable.
In terms of slugging, it was expected to emerge on a top after forcing hooks as the killer has been killed in terms of applying map pressure.
And anyone with the mindset of slugging and camping is in the game so it's perfectly fine no it's not I would hope that people would be decent enough players to let me at least have a little opportunity to get my challenges done and by that I mean I can't do gens or get unhooks or even look for a glyph if I'm the first one found then tunneled out or camped
this is why challenges need to be reworked. People are too focused on them to actually play the game out and improve. As soon as any rift comes, people are 100% focused on challenges and nothing else. Especially hatch challenges
this change was rather implemented for the reason to avoid forced bleeding out.
So instead of killers using the excuse that they are somehow "forced" to slug, now we see the real reason, which is that they want to. The slugging meta came about after this change.
In terms of slugging, it was expected to emerge on a top after forcing hooks as the killer has been killed in terms of applying map pressure.
The extra 10 seconds on hook doesn't come into play unless you stay near the hook. It's designed, and only impacts, hard camping or lurking with the intention of tunneling. Those are the opposite of map pressure.
This comment, and this entire argument "for slugging" shows how much people have no idea what map pressure actually means. It's going after survivors doing gens. That's it.
Camping and tunneling is the opposite of map pressure. It's hook pressure on one survivor, who, coincidentally, is already occupied by being hooked. It's useful in rare circumstances, but if you're camping your first hook of the game, you're leaving at least 2, maybe even 3 survivors alone to do whatever they want (hint it's gens).
Map pressure is forcing the survivors to choose between things they want to do, with things they have to do. They already have to unhook, so unless you force chase they'll just do gens and have one person unhook.
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You have the "pull down" prompt only while crouched and shortly after.
I think when you were close to the pallet you also were facing away and lost the option. Then while you were at the opposite corner (when he planted for m2) I think you were just too far away for the drop to be an option.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876757#Comment_3876757
If they are the top 5%, then they are the high mmr bracket. High mmr is always in relation to the best players, not some arbitrary number. If the high mmr threshold was set at 10 million, but nobody could get over 2 thousand, that would be a pretty horrible system, since no one could ever be considered "high" mmr.
If the top 5% includes the people 3 and 4 standard deviations to the right of average on the bell curve, as well as the top 3% of performers from 2 standard deviations to the right of average, that is high mmr.
Sure, but people in this forum use "high MMR differently. They want it to mean that they're"the best at the game" and are exclusively above, say, 1900.
But as you said, top 5% isn't the same thing. Those standard deviations could mean that people who are at the soft cap are actually not in the top 5% (or alternately that people who are below soft cap could also be top 5%).
That's all I'm saying, is that they aren't necessarily the same thing, and BHVR (afaik) never uses the MMR number with the community.
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@SoGo said:
Meh.
They are really alergic to his og power for some reason, even though it would be a great foundation to start from.
They are really alergic to his og power for some reason
Forever Freddy. That's the reason.
It was the og "holds the game hostage" win condition by attrition, and it should never have existed. I can only imagine what modern killers in 2025 would do with this ability (hint: it's 60 minute matches where the killer automatically wins).
I have yet to see anyone who pines for his "original power" also give anything that resembles a solution to this problem, since the slowdown in the dream world and "progressively harder to wake up" mechanics that caused "forever Freddy" are core features of that build.
Shoot, I don't think I've seen anyone who mentions wanting "original Freddy" even acknowledge that "forever Freddy" was a problem, let alone offer an alternative that would both fix "forever" but keep the general concept.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876692#Comment_3876692
I'm not sure that BHVR ever confirmed what number these stats were from specifically
In official stats, BHVR typically uses "top 5%", which isn't necessarily the same thing as how the community uses "high MMR". But afaik they never give out numbers like 1400.
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This is kind of disheartening to hear from this source, and it's also fairly narrow in scope.
He can say things like "but being able to camp and tunnel is why VHS failed" but I honestly think VHS has other issues that contributed. And honestly, his criticism is more about book of the dead than anything else, since not being able to respawn fixes all of those concerns.
But this also doesn't apply to literally any other failed asymm. Death garden, TCM, F13... None of those failed because it was "too hard to get someone out of the game".
@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875130#Comment_3875130
Fodder. The word you’re looking for is fodder.
Yeah. This is the real answer. I've joked sardonically about this being true for a while, but having it confirmed is depressing.
Time to walk away from this game I think.
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@Testoviron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874981#Comment_3874981
Maybe the idea wouldn't be so awful if it was complimented by a comeback mechanic, to make tunnelling/slugging less viable.
It would be hard to abuse the system to de-rank while still "winning" the trial from a psychological perspective. You would just be de-ranking at that point, all while getting dunked on by survivors.
And you can do that right already, right now, you can "game" the system by intentionally taking losses, going AFK, etc. to lower your MMR. Changing the killer objective wouldn't change that.I'm not really sure what your criticism here is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874984#Comment_3874984
And I'm not sure why you're so quick to accuse people of arguing in bad faith.
So, people did exactly this before MMR even existed, back when ranks/grades were the thing. It was actually a huge problem years ago when people complained constantly about deranking being a huge problem.
Basically, the long story short was that people could literally see their "MMR" change back then and just manipulated the system for easier games. It was a big enough problem that it was a "meta" problem for a long time.
This is essentially just doing that again, but incentivizing an already awful play style that's also currently becoming meta (excessive slugging).
And I'm not sure why you're so quick to accuse people of arguing in bad faith.
There's only logically two options: you either realize that this system can be easily abused, or you don't realize that.
If you don't realize that, and genuinely think it's a good idea, then when I point it a huge flaw in the system it should give you pause. It'd be like saying, hey, what if we have survivors auric cells for chain blinding the killer? Does that seem like something we want the gameplay to revolve around by heavily incentivizing it? No, that sounds terrible.
If you do realize that it's a flawed system, but refuse to acknowledge the flaw, that's called a bias. I think calling out that bias is justified. Similarly, if you didn't realize it was heavily flawed, but still refuse to acknowledge when it's pointed out to you, that's also bias.
This idea would be dead on arrival (for everyone) if it weren't coming from a content creator. It's not my fault if people can't think for themselves or think through the consequences of something like this, even when it's pointed out to them.
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874981#Comment_3874981
Yea making the CHASE game about hooks instead of kills is awful idea
My point is that people won't make it about chases though, and this system is very obviously easily abused.
Not acknowledging that means you either can't see that obvious issue, or you do see it and want to desperately abuse it.
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
First of all the time to make the game about hooks over kills was years ago when MMR first came out
Yall mocked people like tru3 for saying it and here we are
Secondly There is nothing you can do to stop people from giving up in DBD You can only make it as hard as possible
A good start would be to remove self unhook
AND make it so Survivors either get kicked from the game is the have 3 crows for too long when not slugged
You cant stop pallet griefing but you can make it reportable
Also yes i know killers can bodyblock to give a survivor a dc penalty with #2 but i assume that would be fixed if they added it
They were right to shoot down this suggestion because it's awful.
The only thing people seem to care about more than winning is getting easy games. So if they based MMR on hooks, people would simply try to kill survivors (and win) yet not use hooks to do so, giving them easier games.
Oh look, an excessive slugging meta.
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
buff going for hooks then
"Give me something or else I'll make everyone miserable" is not just bullying mentality, it's a terrible way to influence the game.
If that were to happen then what? Keep slugging until the buff the next thing is the true answer. Moving the goal post after every "if their X gets nerfed or my Y gets buffed, then the awful tactics will stop" hasn't truly worked to fix player behavior in over 2 years now.
It just moves the goal post to "well, you nerfed X or buffed Y, but now there's this other thing that needs changed before the behavior stops completely".
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874212#Comment_3874212
As far as the slugging not intended part... why would they introduce slugging perks if they didn't intend for killers to slug people? Deerstalker is a general perks that's been a part of the game since the beginning, before we ever got perks like plot twist that introduce methods that could down a survivor without the killer being involved. I have a hard time coming up with a point to perks like deerstalker, or knockout OTHER than slugging. It sounds like that was 100% the intended design of those perks. Maybe not to bleed people out... but definitely to leave them on the ground for awhile.
I think you're misunderstanding what I meant.
I didn't mean that slugging isn't intended ever, it's a part of gameplay. I've always said that camping, tunneling, and slugging should be situational, so they have a time and a place.
However, if the killer decides that the time is "always", and the place is "everywhere" there's a problem.
Slugging occasionally is fine, if for situational reasons. But we're now talking about a killer meta where the goal to win the game is to slug at 5 gens, no matter what. That. Is a problem.
Which is why I brought up hatch. Hatch is perfectly fine because it's rare. It's a situational mechanic, that barely continues to escapes. However. Before it was changed, people would go into matches with idea that they would escape by hatch, sometimes the entire team, no matter what. That wasn't the goal behind the hatch mechanic, and shouldn't be how hatch is used, so they changed it.
Slugging every survivor, every down, in every game, as the killer's win condition, is clearly not the game design. Killers get BP penalized for bleed outs, hooks are clearly the intended way to sacrifice and kill survivors.
That's my point. Excessive slugging is a problem, especially when it becomes the goal to win the match in the lobby.
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One thing I kind of wanted to have them do as a fix to 3 genning was to add an 8th generator under the stairs that only became accessible if gen progress stalled in the game.
Basically, after a certain number of minutes, if the generators didn't progress by some defined amount, the 8th basement been would need available to help break the stalemate.
Kind of moot now, and didn't really fix the issue if the basement was already included in the 3 gen to begin with. But interesting to consider either way.
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I generally agree with @jesterkind on this topic.
The biggest thing is that the killer generally creates gameplay for the survivors. What I mean by that is that if the killer were afk at the start of the match, survivors will just do gens and leave. (Or likely do 4 gens, 5 totems, then finish gens to counter an end game build).
Most everything else survivors do in the game is responding to the killer's actions. The biggest three being chase, being on hook, and rescue/recovery. Some killers have specific interactions that also consume survivor time: turrets, EMP's, RBT, pinhead's box, even zombies, are there to give survivors something to do besides gens, with consequences ranging from information and time waste to outright killing the survivor if they're ignored too long.
Spreading pressure, imo, is the macro game of giving the survivors enough to do that they can't efficiently focus on gens.
When I play, I typically use something like lethal to get into chase fast (and ideally find 2 or more survivors I can interrupt immediately), then another info perk like BBQ to keep in chase. I don't want to stay at the hook, that survivor is already busy. I want to give someone else something to do instead. Spreading pressure is juggling the survivors so each of them have tasks they have to complete (chase, stealth, hook, v healing), with those they want to complete (gens/escape).
Unfortunately, many killers in this forum hard focus on "strategies" that actually minimize the amount of pressure on the map.
Tunneling, and camping, for example, put all of the pressure on one survivor. The killer is banking on the survivor team falling apart and panicking into making mistakes (which is more likely in solo q), but in reality there just pressuring one survivor on hook or in chase, forcing one survivor to rescue, and the other two survivors are left completely alone. So they'll do whatever they want (hint: it's gens), although the killer is hoping that they all come rescue, in reality they can have half the team on gens for most of the game.
Which is why people complain gens go too fast. Using these strategies, you're only occupying half the team, and hoping that you can tunnel one person out of the game before 2 survivors can finish the gens.
The new slugging meta is basically the same thing: relying on the survivor team panicking instead of giving them something to do.
As to the reason these strategies are complained about, well that can vary by person. But usually it revolves around one player not getting to do anything but chase and die (not the entire survivor catalogue, which is heavily punished by both don't and getting next to no BP), and the rest of the team also doesn't get a full survivor experience (basically do gens and hope the one being tunneled can give you enough time).
One person gets all of the killer interaction, and no hope or chance of escaping the match, and the rest of the team is playing "do gens and leave" which is exactly what happens if the killer is non-existent/afk.
With slugging, you have the extra problem that it's clearly not how the game was designed to be played. It's similar to the old hatch: yeah you could get an entire team out via hatch in the old system, but obviously that wasn't the way it was supposed to work (and they, right, fixed that part). Hooks are the game design, so bypassing that for the match win feels cheap, which is also how old hatch felt.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
- Chaos Shuffle is meant to be a challenge modifier that makes you rely more on your macro knowledge than actual perks (with items/addons not yet randomized + map offerings still being possible to burn, this is not the case)
- Why are we turning this into yet another us vs. them stuff? This clearly says you play one role 90%+ of the time and completely ignore sweatiness of other side.
Both sides are equally sweaty, once you truly start playing both roles at ~50/50 ratio, you will understand.
Sounds to be like people aren't running up against "gen rush" toolbox squads all the time. Seems like that would be rampant with all the complaining we usually hear on this forum.
And it should be especially bad, since killers can't choose to bring the "necessary" quad slowdown perks. But no one is having that problem.
Interesting.
Maybe because that isn't happening, and survivors aren't actually playing that sweaty as often as people claim.
Maybe "gen rushing" isn't base kit, no matter what people claim, and requires a full loadout, items, and coordination to even consider trying it.
Maybe killers don't actually need quad slowdown to win.
Maybe survivors do actually need the bare minimum perk answers to these base kit killer "strategies" to even be able to have some fun occasionally while losing the game.
Maybe some of those specifics should be altered in a game mode that doesn't allow people to choose their perks.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873882#Comment_3873882
And why would the killer be so special?
Um, as with just about any online multiplayer game in existence, latency favors "the shooter". Doesn't matter if the person on the receiving end saw something different, if the person pulling the trigger saw the damage being dealt, the game assume it should apply damage, almost always.
In DbD only one side (killer) deals damage.
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@Nazzzak said:
I've said before that the devs need to make bleed outs not count as kills. Simple. It won't solve this happening as some people literally will just troll anyway, but I guarantee it'll improve. Make bleed outs null, much like hatch escapes are.
This is possibly the worst idea for this I've seen, and sadly it's not the first time seeing it.
If you give people the ability to kill survivors and still call it a loss that's pretty much an awful idea all around.
Still get to 4k, but it doesn't give you harder games? Check.
Possibly 3k and get easier games? Check.
Incentivizing people to slug every single game? Check.
Might as well delete hooks at that point. The only thing people seem to care about nearly as much as winning, is not having to sweat for the next win.
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Yes, this is reportable.
The devs confirmed that if the killer is not making attempts to down or hook survivors for an excessive amount of time, and just holding gens, that this is considered holding the game hostage.
30+ minutes imo certainly counts as "excessive".
Here's my receipt. Mandy also confirmed that this applies to 3 genning when that was meta.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/521124/#Comment_521124
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The thing about chaos shuffle that I find most interesting is how quiet certain things are.
When they remove the "choose your build" part of the game (mostly) the camping, tunneling, and slugging complaints roll in. Clearly the only defense against these "strategies" is gone entirely when you can't choose your build, and people go wild when there's no defense against it.
You know what there aren't any complaints about in chaos shuffle? Gen rushing. There are z.e.r.o. posts about this being an issue.
Interesting. I thought the only defense against that was to bring 4 slowdown perks. Guess that's just not true.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
- i would all agree on additional objectives, but it seems like average player in dbd mostly wants to sit on a gen, hold M1 and then leave (you can also see this when hex perks are in play, people always dislike them (even when there isn't Penti).
- BHVR is planning to add BP gains into custom matches to encourage scrims and tournaments more (probably due to them not being able to implement ranked yet)
- Absolutely agree.
The first point is always misinterpreted like you did.
Killers want an "alternate objective" that just boils down to extra time waste. This is usually brought up as "extra stuff for survivors to do that is mandatory to escaping, in addition to generators, that has no detriment to the killer and that also provides zero benefit to the survivors". Which is usually just an awful lot of words to say "more gens".
Survivors want an "alternate objective" that means "something that isn't staring at a progress bar" for most of the game. Usually, this is something like a scavenger hunt that would replace gens as the objective.
Hexes, like you mentioned, are the mostly the first one, btw. Although people seem to want the time waste of finding and cleansing the hex, but without losing the hex effect (detriment to the killer).
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I don't personally care about perks as much as play style.
Someone can bring quad slowdown, yet spread hooks, and the game can still be fun. They can also bring nothing at all and slug everyone at 5 gens and it would still be miserable.
Knock out, though, has exactly and only one purpose: to make the game miserable. It needs a rework. (But even then, if someone gets this in chaos shuffle and just hooks people, it doesn't matter. People intentionally bring this perk for the excessive slugging play style)
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Pre-6.1 dead hard "for distance" was too much, and it was good that they removed and reworked it.
After 6.1, having the extra restrictions but not losing your activation immediately was fine. The second round of dead hard nerf wasn't necessary. I'll also throw in that apparently when it comes to bleeding out slugs or camping a hook to tunnel someone out, that killers seem to suddenly have no problem "just waiting it out".
Made for this nerf was unjustified and just showed how many people either have no idea how to play the PVP side of the game or use their resources correctly as killer. This was further compounded by people spouting "forums math" to convince the devs that this perk did more than it actually does in a real match. It still pains me to think that this actually worked, but I guess the devs have to make sure that the game is enjoyable for all skill levels, including those who can't remember to turn their monitors on, apparently.
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@Dadeordye said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872507#Comment_3872507
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872509#Comment_3872509
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872510#Comment_3872510
As far as I know the bug it's only for the sound queue of survs dropping it that's not playing.
My point is that even with or without the bug Flashbangs are 100% uncounterable if dropped at the exact time. No walls, no Franklin to make them drop it…100% uncounterable
Situational awareness, baiting the pickup, and "looking up" are base kit.
Lightborn is a hard counter to this, so is infectious fright. They're also not paid dlc. Pick any of the 40 or so aura reading or screaming perks you choose.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871575#Comment_3871575
Pre 6.1.0 DS and the most recent 5 second DS were pretty much equal. They 100% did plan on making it 5 seconds since the animation was scrapped from the PTB, and it was left like that for a whole major patch. They just decided it was too strong after a little bit for whatever reason.
I think Decisive is in a good spot, the jump from 3 seconds to 4 seconds is far more significant than 4 to 5. I'm not sure if the nerf was 100% necessary but it's still amazing despite the fact.
DS is a mainstay in my builds and I get great value out of it. It wastes more time than OTR because they need to go through the whole pickup animation and stun. I wouldn't call it a joke against most killers at all, and the killers that can potentially shrug it off are going to do that regardless of if it's at 4 or 5 seconds.
They 100% did plan on making it 5 seconds since the animation was scrapped from the PTB, and it was left like that for a whole major patch. They just decided it was too strong after a little bit for whatever reason.
I personally disagree. They increased the stun to 5 seconds, sure, but with the newer animation being longer at about 2.2 seconds, the survivor was still only getting about 2.8 seconds of distance. Compare that to the 3s stun, but a roughly 1.5 second animation it was before that patch (about 1.5 seconds of distance).
I'm almost certain the entire balance change revolved around making sure the survivor got less than 3 seconds of distance. When they scrapped the animation change, but kept the 5s stun, it pushed the distance to about 3.5 seconds, which was more than they wanted, so they lowered the stun back to 4s and got their target of about 2.5 seconds again.
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I mean, you list BT in your list of "endurance abuse" perks. It sounds to me like if you're getting hit with BT, then it's doing exactly what it should be doing, since you're back at the hook in less than 10 seconds to walk face-first into it.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Old Distortion basically full-countered entire aura reading builds unless you were a stealth killer or a killer with a small terror radius that made recharging the perk more difficult. It was a one-size-fits-all counter to dozens of perks and addons and was generally able to recharge enough tokens to last all game and never run out most of the time. People got used to being able to hard counter aura reading with just 1 perk that never should've been as effective as it was, which I guess as you mentioned is why aura reading gets perceived differently now.
Even after Distortion's nerf, most aura reading is still completely fine, just as it was prior to Distortion getting buffed into its previous state. There are a few exceptions (I think mainly Nowhere to Hide is a bit overtuned along with a few addons, Rat Poison being one of them until its recent nerf, Black Incense and Cigar Box are also ridiculous), and Nurse in general comes into the conversation too here (aura reading in chase is far too powerful on her, but that's a problem with Nurse as a killer and not the aura reading perks themselves).
Also, you're right - while Distortion is nowhere near as strong as it was before, it's still a decent perk. It just requires you to interact with the killer now in order to continue using it and that's the best change it could've received imo.
Old Distortion basically full-countered entire aura reading builds unless you were a stealth killer or a killer with a small terror radius that made recharging the perk more difficult. It was a one-size-fits-all counter to dozens of perks and addons and was generally able to recharge enough tokens to last all game and never run out most of the time.
The huge problem with this justification for the distortion nerf is that a nearly identical, but even stronger argument can be made for Lightborn.
You already mentioned that there were situations where Distortion could be played around: stealth killers, lower terror radius, or multiple aura perks that could eat up tokens for examples. Lightborn is also a one-size-fits-all solution to all forms of blinds, has no tokens, and has zero workarounds. It's one of the only "hard counters" that exists in the entire game.
While I think you're right that the distortion nerf isn't as bad as I thought it could be initially, this isn't an argument for why the nerf was justified imo. Or rather, if this is the reasoning the devs used for the distortion nerf, then they really need to take a good, long look at their design philosophy and whether or not they want hard counters to exist in this game.
For clarity: I personally don't see an issue with Lightborn as a perk, but if people are arguing that "one perk shouldn't counter an entire class of perks, items, and abilities" like this, then Lightborn also has to be on the list for consistency.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870774#Comment_3870774
Players could define aura perk and choose how to deal with this information > Distortion buffed > Distorion nerfed > OMG aura perks are so unfair there is no way to avoid them!!!!!!!
Let me correct this timeline a little bit…
) Biggest aura reading perk is BBQ & Chili. It has a clear warning that it's about to be used, it doesn't work on anyone too close to the killer at the time, doesn't last long enough for most killers to go from aura reading to direct LoS.
) Floods of Rage gets released that does the same as BBQ & Chili except survivors can't see it coming unless they're a full 4-man SWF and it has no range restriction.
) Distortion gets buffed.
) Nowhere to Hide gets added, making hiding near gens impossible.
) Friends 'Till the End is added, making stealth impossible for the obsession.
) Weave Attunement is added, giving the killer huge AoE aura reading with no limits.
) Human Greed is added, giving the killer aura reading around chests.
) Distortion gets nerfed.
You missed that a bunch of killer perks were added that massively escalated the power of aura reading. One before Distortion got buffed, and four between that and the subsequent nerf. Killers got a massive power-creep in aura perks that were simply covered up by the existence of Distortion. So is it really any surprise that, upon gutting Distortion, people are frustrated by the overwhelming abundance of aura read?
You also missed several in between, which only makes the power creep worse.
Alien instinct was also added in there. But also many perks got aura reading added:
Eruption added aura reads in the rework, gearhead buffed, predator now shows auras, zanshin now shows survivor auras as well.
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@Firellius said:
What made the Distortion change so unreasonable is that, way back when, the primary aura reading perks were I'm All Ears and BBQ & Chili. The former requires you to be in chase, effectively, while the latter was specifically designed to give a killer generalised information without guiding the killer to an exact location.
This trend of these perks being designed as info-perks rather than 'Let's just kill stealth' perks died off gradually, and then was found brutally murdered in the alleyway behind the Greenville Square cinema with the release of Nowhere to Hide.
The newer aura reading perks are significantly more blunt about simply showing where survivors are, and that just removed the option of stealth play from the game. A fond memory I have is of the generator on the ship overlooking the swamp, where I used Fixated whenever I saw the killer was on his way back to my generator. Due to the increased movement speed while not leaving scratch marks, I was able to hide outside the usual movement radius and I confused the killer multiple times before he finally started looking around in a wider circle and found me.
Nowhere to hide kills such plays off immediately. As would any other perk that I might accidentally trigger, like walking too close to a totem, or a chest, or a locker, or there being an item dropped somewhere on the map, anywhere.
OLD aura reading perks gave info, but expected the player to act on that info.
NEW aura reading perks just tell you exact location, coordinates, starsign, blood type and shoe size.
This became a problem because stealth just disappeared as a potential playstyle until Distortion got buffed to function as a deterrent again.
And then it got nerfed because it was doing its job. So we not only got major power-creep for killer aura-reading, but then a survivor perk whose only purpose was to counterbalance those perks had to be nerfed to make way for this power-creep.
And now there's only two reasons to pick Distortion over OTR: Deliverance and Shoulder the Burden. Otherwise, much like OTR, Distortion is only going to be active after you're unhooked, and then some time later, it'll turn off, exactly like OTR, and your cheeks will be out in the astral plane winds again.
It's just baffling that we had a situation where no one was complaining, and then killers got massively buffed and to accommodate for those buffs, survivors were nerfed. Either it should've stayed with BBQ & Chili, and aura reading perks should've been specified to their own purposes outside of just auto-finding, or Distortion should've stayed a proper counter.
Distortion is about the only real thing that holds back the dam of all the aura reading they've added. OTR helps, but let's be real: the unhook notification and scratch marks pretty much mean you're going to be found off hook if the killer is intent on tunneling you anyway. And that's assuming they aren't already near enough to the hook to just watch you directly.
Aura reading had the issues you mentioned, and is probably the most egregious example in the past couple years. But something similar happened with healing and gen speeds too. Anti-healing had a ton of power creep over a couple years (supposedly to counter CoH), and then CoH got nerfed, and so did medkits. The only change to reign in Anti-healing was the mangled/hemorrhage timer.
Gen speeds were also complained about and Prove and BNP were both nerfed/reworked. At least gen speeds also came with some nerfs to killer regression perks, but holy cow are people upset about that. It's like they wanted gen progress to be nerfed while still having the Cobruption gen kick meta as an option. I'll also point out that things like gen blocking have been buffed, and all of the changes to maps that make map pressure so much easier (if only people understood how map pressure actually works).
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@MrDardon said:
BBQ got released almost 1.5 years before Distortion and people knew how to counter it.
People have gotten lazy these days and will blame anything and anyone for their mistakes + asking for Nerfs for anything they personally consider problematic.
This is incredibly disingenuous.
BBQ has a tell. The survivor gets downed, then the next obvious action is carried to hook. Especially when this was one of maybe 4 aura perks and was a hard meta perk 3 or so years ago, you could pretty easily get to a locker and count out the time before getting out.
Today, there's a ton more aura perks now on a huge list of triggers. Almost none of these newer perks have a similar tell for players. You simply can't predict that the killer is opening a locker across the map, kicking a gen upstairs, or even that your teammate is unhooking. It's physically impossible to both be in a locker and hitting a great skill check on a generator, which is another trigger now.
There's also nothing, except distortion to even tell you that these perks are in play.
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@Roco45 said:
BHVR's stats are pretty pointless when they don't factor in DC's. Chucky is one of the top Killers that players DC from. If I'm in SoloQ and it's a Chucky, someone DC's. If I pick Chucky to play Killer, Survs DC. The ones that stick out the match are usually SWF.
I don't understand why you think it's "pointless" without disconnects included in the stats.
Given that survivors are generally more likely to disconnect, even by accident, and an early disconnect will usually mean the game is over already. So including disconnects is only going to show a higher kill rate across the board.
Now, including disconnects does show what the player base experiences as far as kill rates, so that might be interesting to see.
But I didn't think the current way they do it is "useless" by any means. The devs are correct to not balance around disconnect kill rates either, which is why they throw them out.
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@Slan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870435#Comment_3870435
This flair started complaining about auras, then you proceed to put Dragon's grip, which does not give auras. That perk is meant to discourage gen tapping. I mean, one thing is aura reading and others are the scream ones, which can be countered by Iron Will I presume. If there is no scream, there is no location to reveal.
Basically what you are saying "killer shouldn't know where I am, let's gut most of the useful killer perks that are in the game because I don't like them". Yeeeaaaahhh, aaalll riiiighttt… Nerf doctor too because of screams and decoys. Remove freddy's killer instinct when asleep survivors are healing. Remove KIller insitnct overall. Remove SM's tracking ability. Basically gut the killer role overall.
That perk is meant to discourage gen tapping
Maybe it was once, but there's a free, base kit mechanic that does this now. Gen tapping doesn't exist anymore because of it. If you get 5 seconds to progress a gen, that's "doing a gen", not "tapping".
Dragons grip is simply exposed status now… well, and a scream notification I guess.
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@Xernoton said:
No. That's not the case. The reason why Skull Merchant was nerfed was because she had some very fundamental issues, that would take another rework to fix. You put a drone in a loop and now that survivor was screwed no matter what they did. That is extremely unfun and demoralising to play against. Factor in that many still hated her from her 3-gen days and you got yourself a very understandable reason why people hate the character. It's not just her mechanics but pretty much everything about her.
With the press of a button you suddenly got information, haste, a way to injure survivors remotely, hindered and undectable. All of this could be activated with a single press of a button and there wasn't really anything much you could do against that. Especially not in chase.
The devs knew that they couldn't fix her issues immediately, so they decided to nuke instead her and sweep her issues under the rug. That wasn't a good solution (especially considering that some other killers at the time were higher priorities when they were fine) but it is the solution they went with. Skull Merchant will get another rework at some point but unless they change the foundation on which she is built on, people will still hate her.
This, this, this.
I'll also add that SM had three major indicators that somethibg was wrong:
- Killers said she felt weak.
- Devs posted stats saying that even ignoring games with disconnects and deaths on first hook (giving up) her kill rate was still a statistical outlier.
- Survivors saying she was awful to go against.
All of these together mean that the only real option for her is another rework. That's the only way to address all 3 at once.
Typically it feels like these posts are offended that she wasn't simply buffed, which would've only made two of the three main issues worse.
The devs decided a "break glass" solution was necessary in the meantime until they could rework her, which they handled poorly imo. But at least they have a plan to rework her this year.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869708#Comment_3869708
What kind of basekit anti-tunneling is there? Seems not to work at all given how many people are complaining about tunneling.
basekit BT + plethora of perks that are enough to finally put an end to tunneling complaints at this point. If you really struggle with tunneling woth the latest StB iteration, you are just plain refusing to improve at this game and are expecting tunneling to have an autopilot kind of sorting out.
Same with anti-slug, it's just Unbreakable (because FTP+BU got nerfed, same with WGLF) which only works once and if 2-3 people are downed this match is already lost.
Unbreakable, Boon:Exponential, Soul Guard (with hex perks being used so often nowadays, you are literally giving yourself perma self pickups).
On the other side, slugging is literally encouraged by all perk designs, mechanics and playstyles that are simply not rewarding killer for hooking anymore, but instead straight punishing them.
It's anti-face-camp, because killer can still be near hook and this laughably bad progressbar won't fill up.
the feature is there to prevent toxic use of camping, not camping as a strategy. Plus, not killer's fault that your teammates are lurking for the unhook and are slow8ng down the progress bar.
Also ofc, lemme bring dedicated perks to somehow counter killers that play scummy and I can do nothing about it otherwise.
scummy play in the rulebook: any kind of optimal play that is being optimized for the win. Besides, if you don't do anything to counter specific strategies, don't complain that they are being used so much, because that's the reason why they are meta. Because people are refusing to counter them.
And then there will be 1 perk slot that I can use for anything else.
so? Should i complain because i always have to bring Corrupt, two slowdowns and have one perk slot left for any other perk i want? No, i don't complain because i'm actually playing the game.
Or devs buff another perk like Thrill of the Hunt and now I have to bring 6 (out of 4 available <3) perks to the match to counter yet another otherwise uncounterable dumb killer combo.
i thought secondary objectives are fun to have? I thought it's boring to just sit and repair gens? Besides, time to learn that you are quite often not supposed to cleanse hexes, but i guess that "if it glows it goes" mentality is so engraved deep into mind that you'd not care about NOT cleansing specifing totems being the actual optimal play instead of cleansing them (Plaything, Undying, Ruin so that you can deny Penti value to the killer).
basekit BT + plethora of perks that are enough to finally put an end to tunneling complaints at this point.
BT is, was, and always has been anti camping. 10 seconds is absolutely nothing... Except if the killer is actively near the hook.
It's also completely ignored if the killer can either count to 10, or .. it's also completely incompatible with your "plethora of perks" for anti tunneling. Since nearly everything except DS is endurance based, even killers who can't count to ten can just weaponize base kit BT to disable all of your "anti tunnel" endurance completely.
And DS is just a polite suggestion. There's no perk, mechanic, or item in this game that stops tunneling. Nothing. All anything does is add a couple seconds to your tunneling experience. Wouldn't want to actually inconvenience the tunneling killer or dissuade them from that choice.
the feature is there to prevent toxic use of camping, not camping as a strategy
Sorry no. It's not anti camp, it's anti FACE camp. That's been the response to "this mechanic seems ineffective" since they announced it.
You can't just suddenly say it's an anti camping feature that should always work because your want it to count. This is completely circumvented by the killer standing 11m from the hook. So basically the killer has to choose to allow this to do literally anything (and thus, it does nothing).
so? Should i complain because i always have to bring Corrupt, two slowdowns and have one perk slot left for any other perk i want? No, i don't complain because i'm actually playing the game.
Congratulations, you're the one killer who doesn't complain about this. Gen rushing is only possible as a response to toolboxes. Survivors can't physically gen rush you without perks and items specifically for it.
Camping, tunneling, and slugging are base kit for killers. The only protections at all are perks, and mild suggestions to "please, don't do that mr killer" that are actually dead simple to bypass.
Where's the survivor version of corrupt btw? There isn't any way to, say, prevent one person from being hooked twice before the first gen is done (or something). Survivors physically have to leave gens during CI, and there's no way to circumvent this effect. It's not like standing slightly farther away from the gen removes the entity claws.
i thought secondary objectives are fun to have?
This is just being disingenuous. You either don't realize that the giga buffed thrill was obscenely overpowered and could basically win the game for the killer (which seems unlikely), or you do realize that and are just basically lying to be deliberately inciteful at this point.
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B iased take
A ccount created today
I nciteful language
T hree posts on record
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868414#Comment_3868414
You cant always force them out. Sometimes they are just hiding at endgame collapse wasting everyone's time. So that isnt always an option. Also from my experience I have downed a survivor only to have to go for another survivor trying to get the save.
The survivor crawls to another country away from their teammates and then complains about not getting hooked. This happens too often.
Look, now you're just inventing fantasy scenarios. Are the survivors at the exit gate or not? Because the premise of this entire thread is that they're standing in the open at the exit gate.
If they're anywhere else during EGC that's fantastic for the killer. You can get kills at any time of the game, so if they're screwing around nowhere near the exit you have a huge opportunity to turn that into a late kill.