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Batusalen

Batusalen

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Batusalen
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  • @Rickprado said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022499#Comment_4022499

    Monster wasn't at complete disadvantage but it was too hard to get a grasp on it. No one wanted to play monster, and without any new players arriving, the game died.

    That's not even true. Monster was basically a moving target for the teens in the so-called "ambush meta", which made nobody want to play monster, which resulted in the game not having enough players. At that point, any new player would be welcomed by 1 hour queues and / or playing against 4 veteran teens hiding in corners and killing you all the time.

    It didn't die because the monster role was too hard or because the game was too competitive. In fact, if the devs listened to those "sweaty players" that complained about the ambush meta and solved it in time, maybe the game would be live right now.

    in Dbd NEEDS to make new/casual players happy to survive long term Comment by Batusalen

  • @Rickprado said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022457#Comment_4022457

    TBH, VHS had the highest skill ceilling i've seen in an assym game, ever (and i've played many of them). The issues with VHS were that it landed on the other end of the road: its was too much competitive, every match was far more stressfull than any DBD match, specially as monster. And this lead to an absurd imbalance of players, were Teens (survivor) queues reached 40 to 50+ min and almost no new players sticked to the game because they got stomped non-stop by veterans and had almost no real room to learn.

    The Tragedy of VHS should really give a lesson to all other assym games.

    As far as I know, and as you mentioned, what caused the long queue times wasn't the skill ceiling but the literal balance of the game, as the monster was at a total disadvantage, so people just stopped playing that role. That's what led to the game's death, not it being "too competitive".

    in Dbd NEEDS to make new/casual players happy to survive long term Comment by Batusalen

  • The biggest proof that you are wrong: DbD itself. Being one of the less noob-friendly games out there by design, it has survived with a stable playerbase for 9 years.

    One of the others biggest proofs that you are wrong: World of Warcraft. The game started losing players by the million the moment they started to cater to those that "played it for funsies after a hard day at work or whatever" instead of those that spent their time learning the game and grinding.

    Should the game be more accessible to new players? Totally. Should the game focus on the casual players that don't want or can't put in the time needed to gain the knowledge and skill required to be good in a PvP game? Absolutely not.

    in Dbd NEEDS to make new/casual players happy to survive long term Comment by Batusalen

  • @Venusa said:

    Happy it’s arriving. It would’ve been nicer two years ago, but better late than never, I guess…

    Dude, are you into necromancing or something?

    in AFC Progress Should be Visible on HUD Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997715#Comment_3997715

    Okay, so, let's look at that time investment.

    Right off the bat the most obvious thing to point out is that, if it takes ten seconds to walk between gens on average, that means you have time to do an entire lap around the whole gen spread and still have twenty seconds to spare before the survivor on the ground picks themselves up.
    In context, that's still a long time.

    The next thing to do is a sanity check on the scenario you go on to describe. In that scenario, sure, you're probably not hooking the person you slugged, but there are two things to also consider in this discussion.

    1: This means you got to play out an entire chase + hook in a 3v1 and the survivor in question only just picked themselves up, meaning they realistically want to reset before getting back into the action. If they don't, and especially if they run into you again, they have no protection; they'll just get hooked.

    2: This opens with the killer in an explicitly bad situation, not a neutral one. Slugging someone without knowing who it is you're going for next is usually not the right play, though I'll agree that misplays from both sides surrounding the last-hooked mark would make it the right call in a lot of circumstances.
    Keeping track of survivors and knowing where you're going is part of good killer play, and while you do sometimes end up wandering around generators for forty seconds, we shouldn't assume that's the default and will play out any time you have to slug someone. Hell, in the broader context of this PTB, you HAVE other information given to you basekit to help in tracking survivors. Wandering around for really any length of time without knowing where survivors are at least likely to be is bad killer play, and while sometimes everyone does end up doing it if things go poorly, it should be acknowledged as a situation to be avoided next time.

    After that the next thing I want to discuss is just a quick correction - when I mentioned that the self-pickup part was fine on its own, that was in the context of talking about which other systems I felt would cause problems in combination with it. I'm not ignoring the other systems being tested on this PTB, I'm making a case for which ones I think would cause problems and what I think should be done about it.
    In this case, the self-pickup is fine as it allows for plenty of pressure if it's allowed to play out fully, BUT the basekit Tenacity effect is a little too strong and a little too capable of undoing that.

    Finally, I have been in that situation before, and I'd rather be in that one than some of the others we've discussed. Three survivors crowding me means I have much more luxury to be patient; the killer's time investment only matters because of the potential generator repair done while they're acting. If only one survivor's doing generators, my time investment is less punishing, so I can play it much more safe.

    And again, all your post can just be answered with: You are assuming that the slugged survivor is going to stay on the floor the whole time. What if he, again, crawls to someone doing a gen while recovering, and when he gets there he gets picked up instantly, both do the gen, and by the time you finish hooking the one survivor you found 80 seconds later, you are another gen down with 3 survivors standing?

    See? This is what you do. You pick an argument with many implications, create a very specific scenario that follows your narrative, and use that specific example to make a counterargument for all of it.

    That, my friend, is the definition of the fallacy of the lonely fact, with some sniper fallacy and cherry picking sprinkled over it.

    So, again, I'm done with this. I already explained in detail how and why, so re-read my posts until you understand it.

    @MechWarrior3 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997673#Comment_3997673

    You can say “we were just wrong” but that doesn’t mean we actually were.

    Most people agree with us. I don’t have the energy to keep going back and forth with you on this topic so I will leave it here, but just to be clear on where I stand. I am FOR extreme anti tunneling and slug changes. BHVR missed the mark on that, I am glad they will be doing some adjustments.

    I personally like the idea of recovery while crawling. It’s a nice QOL change. I don’t like holding the button down or having to keep pausing to hold it back down.

    You can say “we were just wrong” but that doesn’t mean we actually were.

    I didn't just say "you are wrong". I also explained to you why multiple times.

    Most people agree with us.

    And a long time ago most people thought that the Earth was the center of the universe and even the sun orbited around it. Your point?

    I personally like the idea of recovery while crawling. It’s a nice QOL change. I don’t like holding the button down or having to keep pausing to hold it back down.

    They can still make the bar fill automatically when staying still without the need of a button. The problem is being able to recover while moving (among other things, as already explained).

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997673#Comment_3997673

    See, a lot of what you says really heavily implies that you aren't taking into account how long ninety seconds actually is in this game. You say they're constantly getting up after you slugged them, so are you talking about perks to do it? Because they can't do that with the base mechanic on its own, it takes too long.

    I accept that the anti-tunnel system is relevant, it's why we're talking about this at all- that's just the extent of the relevance. It's the reason you can't (or, more accurately, probably don't want to) hook the person, fair enough. It doesn't have any extra relevance other than pushing you to slug the survivor we're talking about, though, so we must necessarily be talking about the anti-slug system in this conversation.

    Part of the problem here is that you tend to drift across multiple issues without stopping to really discuss the specifics of any individual one. I respect that it's a holistic issue you're trying to talk about, but we do still need to stop and do a sanity check on each part to see if there might be something being missed at any specific step.

    I mean, we've now drifted to talking about a bully squad when before we were talking about someone crawling to a teammate on gens, which is a very very different situation if there's only one on gens and the rest are crowding you to bully you.
    Similarly, when you say "the second person you hooked blocking you", I feel you're missing the important context that it's ONLY them you can't hook- you'd just repeat the process of leaving them on the ground and chasing someone else because only they have the last-hooked mark.

    It is a good thing BHVR decided to iterate on this with another PTB, there are definitely issues to iron out. I wouldn't deny that.

    See, a lot of what you says really heavily implies that you aren't taking into account how long ninety seconds actually is in this game.

    Have you ever thought that maybe it is you who is misunderstanding how short 90 seconds really are in some cases? Just for context, in most maps walking from one gen to another takes a minimum of about 10 seconds.

    Imagine you slug somebody. After the attack cooldown, you start checking gens looking for survivors, and you walk around 4 gens. That's more than 40 seconds already.

    Now, you find another survivor, chase, and down him. Let's be generous here, and let's say it was a 30 seconds chase. That's, again, more than 70 seconds.

    Pick him up, pray someone with a flashlight is not close, take him to a hook, and hook him. Depending on where the survivor has gone down, it can perfectly be another 10 seconds walk to the hook, and that is without counting the hooking animation. 80 seconds.

    90 seconds is not a long time, unless you are a high-mobility killer that is flying through the map. And in fact, I propose to you an experiment: Pick an M1 killer with no mobility, and record a couple of games. When you finish, watch the videos and take notes of how much time it took you from finishing hooking one survivor to finishing hooking the next.

    Trust me, you will be surprised to see how much time you really invested, even in the shortest of chases, while taking into account everything, not just the chase time. Like I said to you in another post, even hitting a survivor costs you time as a killer.

    Part of the problem here is that you tend to drift across multiple issues without stopping to really discuss the specifics of any individual one.

    I was discussing the specific problems the anti-slug system had. Then, you argued something that, if the anti-slug system were implemented alone, would be right. But the anti-slug system was not the only thing in this patch. So, I just pointed out that you are wrong in this case, as the anti-tunneling system also affects what you just said.

    You can't talk about one system individually if it will be implemented alongside another system that influences it. But to be fair, that's BHVR's fault for implementing game-breaking systems in pairs instead of testing one at a time.

    I mean, we've now drifted to talking about a bully squad when before we were talking about someone crawling to a teammate on gens

    I said that because I really think you had never being put in the case of having one survivor slugged under the pallet with two other people trying to deny the hook with a full arsenal of items and perks. Because if you did, you won't be saying most of the things you are saying.

    That's it.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @MechWarrior3 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997466#Comment_3997466

    Ive been following this thread and you’re saying everything plus then some on what I was saying but I think it might be slipping past him, that or he’s too caught up emotionally to this.


    Respectfully I quit responding as I felt like I was hitting a brick wall. It’s been an interesting conversation to follow to say the least. I’m glad everyone is being vocal with their feedback.

    So, I explain in detail why both of you are wrong (to one of you, in two threads), as both just said the exact same thing repeatedly (in short, slugging is still effective despite all the things that make it not because you two say so), and explicitly said that I'm not going to continue repeating myself, so I'm done… but it's me who doesn't get it, and you're the one hitting a brick wall?

    I love how some people's logic works.

    @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997465#Comment_3997465

    But. You just slugged them. How are they bodyblocking if you just slugged them…?

    It's after you slug them that you'd presumably go on to chase someone else, right? At which point the last-hooked survivor changes, so the person on the ground can be hooked or, if they were picked up, no longer needs to be slugged because they're no longer the one who was last hooked.

    By constantly getting up after you "slugged them"? By making the second survivor that you hooked be the one blocking you? That's assuming that you had time to do a chase and hook someone else before the "slugged" survivor gets up… Have you ever played with an M1 killer against a bully squad?

    Again, we had gone through all these "extra problems" of the anti-slug + anti-tunnel systems in detail in another post. Seriously, either your short-term memory is very lacking, or you really can only process one specific concept at a time.

    Either way, it doesn't matter anymore because BHVR has already announced that, to everyone's surprise, they will not be releasing any of those changes in the next chapter and will iterate over it in a future PTB to make them fairer to killers.

    Kudos to BHVR for doing this despite the backlash they are going to receive for backtracking, something that I would have never expected but truly appreciate.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997449#Comment_3997449

    I would argue the point is more to prevent excessive slugging in general, which definitely includes forced bleedouts but also includes killers not hooking until everyone's on the ground and just, broadly, any time a survivor's left on the ground for multiple minutes at a time.
    That's a bit more consistent with what they did, where you can easily slug to avoid a flashlight/pallet save and you're only given a cap on slugging value beyond that instead of it being removed outright.

    I'm a little confused by your second paragraph, though. If you slug a survivor because they were the last one on the hook, don't you then go on and chase + hook someone else…? At that point, the "mark" on the last-hooked survivor shifts, and the person who was on the ground can now be hooked.

    I do see the full picture, which is that someone on the ground for 90 seconds absolutely generates very meaningful pressure, and the basekit Tenacity part could use tweaking to make sure it doesn't undo that.

    I'm a little confused by your second paragraph, though. If you slug a survivor because they were the last one on the hook, don't you then go on and chase + hook someone else…?

    Unless that "marked" survivor decides to become your worst nightmare by bodyblocking and not leaving you alone unless you slug him and / or hook him again so you get punished.

    Come on, dude, we got through this already in another post. You are doing argumentative circles right now.

    I do see the full picture, which is that someone on the ground for 90 seconds absolutely generates very meaningful pressure

    No, it doesn't, and I explained how and why it doesn't thanks to the rest of the changes they had made!

    But you know what? I already explained everything, and you are repeating the same arguments over and over again, so I'm done with this. I have a RimWorld to mod.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997425#Comment_3997425

    At that point, doesn't it imply that the killer is slugging them extensively multiple times?

    The system is supposed to make that weaker, that's the whole point.

    Though, in your scenario they're still on the ground for a minute before being picked up, that's a long time to keep a survivor out of the action.

    Wasn't the point preventing slugging survivors till they bleed out while still allowing killers to use short slugging as a way to pressure survivors? Because that's not what the current system is doing, for the reasons already mentioned.

    And I think you have forgotten that thanks to the anti-tunneling, there are survivors that can't be hooked if you don't want to get punished. So, your only option is to slug that survivor every time he crosses paths with you.

    Or it would be, if it wasn't because again, you won't generate almost any pressure and will only grant him a free Unbreakable for the rest of the match. Do you start to see the full picture now? How it's just not only one thing, but that one problem gets bigger with the next problem?

    This whole patch is a mess.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997379#Comment_3997379

    Well, the problem there is that the Unbreakable analogue doesn't actually affect this scenario at all because of how long it takes.

    If they're actually crawling to a teammate on gens, and that's fast enough to actually be worth doing over the teammate meeting them halfway, they're not building the Resolve bar. That's why the Unbreakable part isn't a problem- it takes so long that the killer easily wins out on time investment if it's ever actually used.
    (Outside of perks, anyway, I've mentioned in other posts that some perks interact with this system in a suspect way.)

    Crawling while recovering is a valuable change because it puts agency back in survivor's hands when they're slugged. The concern is if they can mitigate pressure too much with it, and as it is on the PTB…. ehhh… there's a chance big enough to be worth talking about, but it's not guaranteed. It really depends on a lot of factors, the biggest obviously being "how far away is their teammate". Far enough and the killer's still winning out easily, close enough and the recovery part barely matters.

    That's why I think the best solution is just to slow down recovery speed while crawling. It shifts the time investment enough that it's almost certainly going to be the better call to just go pick up your teammate, but survivors still have some options and decisions to make while they're on the ground.

    Again, all your arguments can be answered with: Those 90 seconds are total time in dying state for the whole match.

    So, if their teammate is "far away", they either get the free Unbreakable and next time it would not even matter, or his teammate will finish the gen and just pick him up instantly midway while he builds up 60 of the 90 seconds. Meaning, next time he gets downed and slugged, he will only have to spend 30 seconds on the ground, and he will be able to pick himself up the rest of the match.

    So, no. It's not ok. They need to make the timer reset every time the survivor gets out of the dying state, and they need to revert the recovery while moving. This way, we prevent hard 4 minutes slugging while allowing the killer to still use it as a pressure method, just as they can do now.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997309#Comment_3997309

    So it is the crawling recovery more than the Unbreakable analogue?

    I'm trying to understand your position, that's all. You make more of a deal of the Unbreakable so I assumed that was more central to your point, but if it's the crawling recovery that'd change my response.

    Like I said, because killers can still easily slug and gain value with the Unbreakable change, I only think the crawling recovery needs to be slower than stationary recovery for this to be completely fine. That way, survivors can crawl towards a teammate on a gen, but they'd still have to sit there and recover/have that person invest time to pick them up again, preserving the pressure.
    That, or potentially having crawling recovery stop working over a certain threshold, but that's probably overcomplicating it.

    It's both, but the main issue is being able to move while recovering. Getting a free Unbreakable for the rest of the match just make the strategy more beneficial as then they don't even need to crawl to anybody anymore when they get it.

    Like I said, I already explained it.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997084#Comment_3997084

    If the correct call in all scenarios really is to leave the person on the ground for the full 90 seconds so they can recover, isn't that still perfectly serviceable for the killer?

    It's not as though you're standing over them waiting for the self pickup, you're presumably going and getting in another chase, and presumably attempting to get a second down. 90 seconds is long enough that you could realistically end that chase and hook that second down, at which point you can really do damage to the team's efficiency.

    You're portraying a scenario where you effectively get to be in a 3v1 for 90 seconds and saying that doesn't give you meaningful pressure.

    Unless the argument is more centred on them crawling to a teammate, in which case I'd personally say the idea is fine but there should be a penalty to recovery speed while crawling. Make them put a little more time into being ready to be picked up.

    I already explained multiple times why slugging was an effective way of applying pressure in comparison to hooking and why, with the new changes, it not only is not an effective alternative anymore, but in some situations you can't hook either. Not going to repeat myself.

    But I will say, that slugging now grants you about 20 to 30 seconds more of the same pressure that hooking the survivor will give you… if the hook slowly moved closer to the nearest survivor repairing a gen and granted the survivor a free Deliverance for the rest of the match if hooked for 65 seconds total.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @UnicornMedal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996707#Comment_3996707

    To be frank, none of that has anything to do with what I said.

    Even with these current changes, a strong point of contention is that Survivor is being hand-held because they already have mechanics that make teamwork more functional (like the HUD) and that they have basekit mechanics that make the strongest Killer comebacks somewhat less viable though not enough to be strong counters. Not to get ina p*ssing contest over that, just saying that both sides are equally criticized. The narrative will always be SWF/gen-rushing vs camping/tunneling/slugging.

    Likewise, communcation is one of those self-inflicted problems. It's an element of every PVP game ever and not only does DBD have an aggressive chat filter, there are a number of options to silence all communication with other players entirely. Though I will give you that—Killers are more likely to get salt.

    The reality, in my experience, is that even when both sides are facing similar situations, Killer players are usually the most likely to take it personally. I've never seen Survivors do it to the same degree. For me, it has a lot less to do with "us vs. them" and is more of a psychological thing. It has me wondering what the draw is to each role.

    Listen, I get that you wanna whip it out and slap it on the table, but that's a diversion tactic. It's no secret that DBD is a game of investment—whichever role you feel the most invested in is where your bias lies. For me, that's Survivor. For you, it might be Killer (I'm not going to assume that however). No amount of experience in either role is likely to change that. On top of that, if I had 5k hours on Killer and a 90% KR, would that make my opinion more valid? What if I had 100 hours and a 50% KR? It means nothing.

    Even with these current changes, a strong point of contention is that Survivor is being hand-held because they already have mechanics that make teamwork more functional (like the HUD) and that they have basekit mechanics that make the strongest Killer comebacks somewhat less viable though not enough to be strong counters. Not to get ina p*ssing contest over that, just saying that both sides are equally criticized. The narrative will always be SWF/gen-rushing vs camping/tunneling/slugging.

    Who is even saying that? Because first, nobody is saying survivors are hand-held by the game "because of the HUD", but because those base mechanics grant a low-effort advantage to survivors and / or save them from their mistakes while punishing killers. And that's a reality.

    Second, I had never seen a single killer main that really knew the game, never, complaining about the "strongest Killers" not being able to make a comeback. In fact, those mechanics mainly affecting the weaker low-tier, low-mobility killers while the top-tier ones like Blight or Nurse are practically unaffected is one of the main complaints the killer community has about all the base kit mechanics BHVR has implemented.

    That's another problem the survivor side has: Not understanding that not everybody plays top-tier killers. Not all of us are Blight, Nurse, or Ghoul mains, and in fact those killers are a small percent of the pick rate.

    And you are right, the narrative is always "SWF/gen-rushing vs Camping/Tunneling/Slugging". And casually, up to this point, BHVR has only implemented base mechanics to "solve" those things (in the worst way possible most of the time, with this last patch as the perfect example) that affect survivors. But of course, if we point out this fact, it is just us feeling "othered" without reason.

    Likewise, communcation is one of those self-inflicted problems. It's an element of every PVP game ever and not only does DBD have an aggressive chat filter, there are a number of options to silence all communication with other players entirely. Though I will give you that—Killers are more likely to get salt.

    I agree that for a game rated M / +17, the amount of censorship the chat has is laughable, and that communication is super important in a PvP game, especially in a game like DbD that requires good coordination sometimes. But yet again, what good does a chat system that can only be used before or after the match do?

    I had been asking for years now for BHVR to implement at least a quickchat function in the game for survivors so they can communicate and coordinate. But because I'm a killer main, my feedback was completely ignored (joking).

    The reality, in my experience, is that even when both sides are facing similar situations, Killer players are usually the most likely to take it personally. I've never seen Survivors do it to the same degree. For me, it has a lot less to do with "us vs. them" and is more of a psychological thing. It has me wondering what the draw is to each role.

    Depends on what situations you are referring to and what you mean by "take it personally". But I agree, this has nothing to do with "us vs. them", it's just entitled people not even understanding the game they are playing and complaining about it under their subjective view. And those are on both sides of the community.

    It just happens that, in my experience, most of them are survivors.

    Listen, I get that you wanna whip it out and slap it on the table, but that's a diversion tactic. It's no secret that DBD is a game of investment—whichever role you feel the most invested in is where your bias lies. For me, that's Survivor. For you, it might be Killer (I'm not going to assume that however). No amount of experience in either role is likely to change that. On top of that, if I had 5k hours on Killer and a 90% KR, would that make my opinion more valid? What if I had 100 hours and a 50% KR? It means nothing.

    "[…] if I had 5k hours on Killer and a 90% KR, would that make my opinion more valid?"

    Not your "opinion", but your claims? Yes, especially if you are talking about the game balance or talking about the killer experience as a survivor main, and vice versa.

    Just as I said earlier, and you can like it or not, most of those complaints come from people that don't understand the full game. And to understand a game like DbD, you have to at least play as both sides long enough and well enough. For example, one time a killer complained about gen rushing when it was one of the most relaxed and chill matches I had ever played as survivor. Obviously, that killer didn't know better and has not experienced a match ending in less than 6 minutes like I and many others have.

    And "long enough" is not 3 thousand hours, as some people claim. With a couple of weeks of doing well, you will get to experience the "real" game, and you will start to see a lot of things people complain about that are discarded because "I had played 5 minutes as one side and X happened, so shut up because your side is OP".

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @GentlemanFridge said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996056#Comment_3996056

    This was written over two days so this is going to be very disjointed:

    I must say that this has already gone well beyond my original point. I don't even necessarily disagree with the notion that the changes are too heavy-handed. I just think the idea that BHVR "doesn't play killer" is borderline infantile. I also disagree with the use of the word 'handholding', cause that's not what is happening. The survivors are still a man down. That's still a massive detriment. Handholding would imply they're given free wins because someone got tunnelled, which is absurd.

    As for the specifics…

    I want to emphasise that I'm on the fence on the slugging mechanics. I see your argument, but at the same time I wonder how much this actually happens. Which why I say to wait and see how this situation develops. It may need adjustments, it may not.

    Regarding Killer Instict, I still disagree. Legion getting a frenzy down is rather rare to begin with in my experience, so I'm not sure how this changes anything. All this does is prevent Legion from stabbing the unhooker, and immediately knowing where the unhooked survivor is, and virtually ignore anti-tunnelling perks on top of that.

    Additionally, an unhooked survivor has just about every advantage over the killer for that period. Unless the killer sees the unhook itself happening, they don't even know if it happened. I think your main argument is that the killer is still 'punished' in what I'll call a 'collossal survivor mistake scenario.' In which an unhooked survivor, despite all the mechanics in place to prevent it from happening, still got themselves found by the killer twice, or even thrice in a row, leading to their death.

    Almost all of your concerns about 'handholding' seem to stem from this collosal mistake scenario. Which, mind you, I don't even think is an unreasonable scenario, albeit a rare one.

    Thing is, that 25% only comes into effect if there's a kill before 6 hooks (hook events? there's a difference here and im not sure which applies currently). If a killer is already at 1 gen left, and they manage to trigger the 25%, they realistically weren't winning that game anyway, eh? Like, I understand that it feels rather heavy-handed, and that it eliminates an opportunity for a comeback, but were you really coming back from 1 gen left? Furthermore, even if the gens are done, that game still isn't over. You might still get another kill. Multiple if you're lucky.

    In isolation, 25% is massive, but again, if the survivors are constantly pressured by hooks, saves, etc., then they won't be able to use that bonus. I think, more than anything, this demonstrates that this measyre doesn't dissuade the strongest killers from tunnelling as much as the weaker ones.

    Personally, I'd have gone with the first kill being allowed at 5 hooks, rather than 6. Maybe even 4? We'd have to experiment. I agree 6 is a lot, when my average match is around 9-10 hooks total.

    Regarding the loss of collision, I was under the impression this also prevented hitting, which doesn't make sense in hindsight. Aggressive protection hits from the saved survivor are an issue, yes. Though I'd go for making protection hits a conspicious action, thereby cancelling out the Endurance.

    The survivors been smart enough to not get up, whether it is by themselves or with help, while the killer can get them again instantly.

    Except this is just slugging. Smart or not, it's boring as hell for the affected survivor, which is precisely what we want to avoid.

    I must say that this has already gone well beyond my original point. I don't even necessarily disagree with the notion that the changes are too heavy-handed. I just think the idea that BHVR "doesn't play killer" is borderline infantile.

    Maybe, but that's not really the point being made.

    The point really is that BHVR doesn't care at all about the killer experience. And this patch is only another example of this.

    I also disagree with the use of the word 'handholding', cause that's not what is happening. The survivors are still a man down. That's still a massive detriment. Handholding would imply they're given free wins because someone got tunnelled, which is absurd.

    Well, you are saying it yourself. They are losing, and they get helped. They come back not from playing well, not from being smart, and not from having a good game sense, but because the game itself compensates them for losing with base mechanics. That's the definition of hand-holding.

    And to be honest, even if I don't think that kind of mechanic is good for any PvP game, I won't care as much if it wasn't because the way it hand-holds survivors is by punishing even Killers that are playing well. That's it.

    I want to emphasise that I'm on the fence on the slugging mechanics. I see your argument, but at the same time I wonder how much this actually happens. Which why I say to wait and see how this situation develops. It may need adjustments, it may not.

    Well, I say to you what I said in another post: I don't need to get a punch in the guts to know how it's going to play out and that it will hurt. The moment survivors start to pick up that now there is no need to go get up anybody, it will become the standard.

    But alright, let's see what happens in the future.

    Regarding Killer Instict, I still disagree. Legion getting a frenzy down is rather rare to begin with in my experience, so I'm not sure how this changes anything.

    It will make it even rarer. That was my point.

    All this does is prevent Legion from stabbing the unhooker, and immediately knowing where the unhooked survivor is, and virtually ignore anti-tunnelling perks on top of that.

    Even if you are right and a Legion uses it to get to the recently unhooked survivor, there are other things preventing him from hooking that survivor, starting with 30 seconds of haste, free Endurance, and stealth, ending with the gen blocking if the survivor is on the last hook.

    Instead, it will allow him to get a frenzy hit and go for the next survivor, not preventing him from getting a chance to use his power.

    But again, the easy solution to that is to reduce the number of hits needed to activate it.

    Additionally, an unhooked survivor has just about every advantage over the killer for that period. Unless the killer sees the unhook itself happening, they don't even know if it happened. I think your main argument is that the killer is still 'punished' in what I'll call a 'collossal survivor mistake scenario.' In which an unhooked survivor, despite all the mechanics in place to prevent it from happening, still got themselves found by the killer twice, or even thrice in a row, leading to their death.

    Depends on what you are referring to here. In general, these mechanics punish killers in multiple ways even if they are not tunneling at all.

    Also, in your scenario, it doesn't even need to be "colossal". If that survivor is the last hooked survivor, is on death hook, and walks to the killer minutes after he was hooked, the killer was not tunneling him, but if he punishes the survivor for his mistake, he gets punished back.

    This applies to a lot of things and even specifically affects a lot of killers in the roster. For example:

    • A survivor getting caught multiple times in bear traps.
    • A survivor not managing his Condemn appropriately.
    • A survivor not getting off a reverse trap.
    • A long etc.

    So, this punishes killers in many ways and puts them in many lose / lose situations, whether they tunnel or not. That's why this is not an "anti-tunneling" system, this is just hand-holding.

    Almost all of your concerns about 'handholding' seem to stem from this collosal mistake scenario. Which, mind you, I don't even think is an unreasonable scenario, albeit a rare one.

    Again, I don't know what you mean with the "collosal mistake scenario", but this system punishes killers in a lot of different scenarios that are pretty common.

    Like, for example, the unhooked survivor weaponizing his free Endurance, something that they can still do (easier than before, thanks to having no collision) and something that you can't punish anymore, or the one punished is you.

    Thing is, that 25% only comes into effect if there's a kill before 6 hooks (hook events? there's a difference here and im not sure which applies currently). If a killer is already at 1 gen left, and they manage to trigger the 25%, they realistically weren't winning that game anyway, eh? Like, I understand that it feels rather heavy-handed, and that it eliminates an opportunity for a comeback, but were you really coming back from 1 gen left? Furthermore, even if the gens are done, that game still isn't over. You might still get another kill. Multiple if you're lucky.

    Maybe I was not getting a comeback with 1 gen left and 3 survivors still alive after removing one from the match, no. The thing is, with the new changes, that "maybe" becomes an "absolutely not". Also, even if it is at 2 or 3 gens, this still drastically reduces the opportunity for a comeback just because survivors need to be compensated for not being good enough to maintain their main advantage over the killer (being 4 against 1).

    The funny thing is there are a lot of ways to do this without punishing the killer for doing good, but they decided to go this way. For example, why not escalate the progression penalty / bonus depending on how many survivors are alive and gens are left? That would be a good system that doesn't put the killer at such a disadvantage.

    Not 25%, tho. As I showed in the capture, no matter how you look at it, it's too much unless they start nerfing any other progression bonus source.

    Personally, I'd have gone with the first kill being allowed at 5 hooks, rather than 6. Maybe even 4? We'd have to experiment. I agree 6 is a lot, when my average match is around 9-10 hooks total.

    If we have to use this system no matter what, I say 4. Personally, I would prefer it either gone or changed for something fairer and not as hand-holding, as I already said.

    Regarding the loss of collision, I was under the impression this also prevented hitting, which doesn't make sense in hindsight. Aggressive protection hits from the saved survivor are an issue, yes. Though I'd go for making protection hits a conspicious action, thereby cancelling out the Endurance.

    I like it, it could be an option.

    Except this is just slugging. Smart or not, it's boring as hell for the affected survivor, which is precisely what we want to avoid.

    I thought what we wanted to prevent was killers purposefully leaving survivors on the ground for the 4 minutes the bleed-out takes. This doesn't change that (in fact, what prevents the killer from doing that in the PTB now? Just wait on top of the survivor to down him again and again till bleedout?), just change the blocking gens punishment to only really punish tunnelers.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @MechWarrior3 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996808#Comment_3996808

    Until he gets free Unbreakable.

    Until is the key word. Until then. The slugged survivor cannot work on a gen. Hence Pressure. Point proven.

    There's no need to go for the pick up, because the downed survivor can either come to you while recovering or pick up himself while you still do the gen.

    The survivor barely crawls as fast as one of Nemmy's slow zombies. It will still take you quite a while crawl to the survivor. What's happening in the meantime? Oh, thats right. They are not working on a Gen. They can only pick themselves up if its been 90 seconds. So again back to the first point. If they have unbreakable then sure. They get to do that once with a perk. Still on the ground, still no hands on a gen, just in the dirt.

    Again, you won't, because there is no need to prioritize going for the pick up over gens anymore.

    This is false. You stop the rescuer and prevent his teammate from being picked up. 2 people not on a gen. If he isn't going for the save yet then perfect, go chase someone, then THEY are not on a gen as well. Either way thats still 2 people not on a gen.

    And yet, you haven't provided a single argument of why I'm wrong, just repeat what you already said.

    Im literally counter arguing you bro. Im a killer main and your take here is wild. You sound like you just want to hardcore slug everyone and if thats the case, thats your issue, you will defend this tooth and nail.

    But again, to say that SLUGGING provides no real benefit is 100% false. Lets be so for real. I am not saying the change they made is perfect and wont need an adjustment cause I believe it does, but my point stand.

    Slugged survivor literally=Survivor cant work on a gen. That benefits the killer. Theres no arguing that point because its a fact.

    Until is the key word. Until then. The slugged survivor cannot work on a gen. Hence Pressure. Point proven.

    Nobody has said otherwise.

    But the advantage of slugging someone instead of hooking them was that it has the same pressure effect as a hook (meaning, someone should stop doing gens to go for the save) while not losing time hooking the survivor itself.

    Now, and again, that pressure effect is gone because there is no reason to go pick up that survivor over finishing a gen. So, it will be better to hook him instead to make pressure… except you can, or you will be punished and / or survivors rewarded.

    The only thing you are proving is that you don't understand what you are talking about.

    The survivor barely crawls as fast as one of Nemmy's slow zombies. It will still take you quite a while crawl to the survivor. What's happening in the meantime? Oh, thats right. They are not working on a Gen. They can only pick themselves up if its been 90 seconds. So again back to the first point. If they have unbreakable then sure. They get to do that once with a perk. Still on the ground, still no hands on a gen, just in the dirt.

    The speed is not the problem, only makes it worst. The problem is that the crawling survivor is moving at the same time he is recovering, while also building up his free Unbreakable.

    So, again, the smart move is no leave the gen for the pick up, and for the survivor to crawl as close as he can to that gen while is getting done. Really, is not that hard to understand.

    This is false. You stop the rescuer and prevent his teammate from being picked up. 2 people not on a gen. If he isn't going for the save yet then perfect, go chase someone, then THEY are not on a gen as well. Either way thats still 2 people not on a gen.

    Again, you can't stop the rescuer if there is no rescuer. Because the smart move is, again, not picking up that survivor and keep doing gens while he passively recover.

    Im literally counter arguing you bro. Im a killer main and your take here is wild.

    No, you aren't.

    And now that you mention it, just to have context, can you post a screenshot of your most used killer from the official stats, please?

    You sound like you just want to hardcore slug everyone and if thats the case, thats your issue, you will defend this tooth and nail.

    How, exactly, have you come to that conclusion? Especially when my only complains against the anti-slugging are the 90 seconds being global with free Unbreakable and survivors being able to recover themselves while moving. I'm fine with the other changes.

    But again, to say that SLUGGING provides no real benefit is 100% false. Lets be so for real. I am not saying the change they made is perfect and wont need an adjustment cause I believe it does, but my point stand.

    Slugged survivor literally=Survivor cant work on a gen. That benefits the killer. Theres no arguing that point because its a fact.

    There is no real benefit if your reason for the slug was slowing down gen progression, and I explained to you why 3 times by now . If you don't want to accept it, it's your problem.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @MechWarrior3 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996732#Comment_3996732

    Bro not true. Survivor on the ground=no gen progress from him. Survivor goes to pick up=no gen progress, survivor in chase=no gen progress.

    Not to mention if you cut the guy off who is going for pick up.

    So yes you can’t slug endlessly and mindlessly like a slug bot but to say it CANNOT be used as a tool to slow gen speed or that it’s dead is false.

    Survivor on the ground=no gen progress

    Until he gets free Unbreakable.

    Survivor goes to pick up=no gen progress

    There's no need to go for the pick up, because the downed survivor can either come to you while recovering or pick up himself while you still do the gen.

    Not to mention if you cut the guy off who is going for pick up.

    Again, you won't, because there is no need to prioritize going for the pick up over gens anymore.

    So yes you can’t slug endlessly and mindlessly like a slug bot but to say it CANNOT be used as a tool to slow gen speed or that it’s dead is false.

    And yet, you haven't provided a single argument of why I'm wrong, just repeat what you already said.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @MechWarrior3 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994971#Comment_3994971

    “Slug Survivor A and, again, waste more time. Except this is no longer a viable option, as you now don't get any pressure from slugging.”


    This part is false. You do get pressure from slugging. They can’t get up instantly. That’s a whole person not on a gen right? Hence, pressure. Someone has to go get them up, more pressure.

    (You have 90 seconds to play with that)

    The pressure of slugging is not having one survivor on the ground per se, it is making another one stop repairing a gen to get him up while you chase another.

    With the new anti-slugging, there is no need for that. The survivor on the ground can use his free Tenacity to get closer to a gen a survivor is repairing while building both recovery and the free Unbreakable.

    If the survivor on the gen finishes before the survivor on the ground gets up, go to pick him up midway. If the survivor on the ground gets there before the gen is done, pick him up instantly and finish the gen together. If he gets the free Unbreakable, there is no need for anyone to pick him up anymore.

    So no, you can't get true pressure for slugging anymore.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @UnicornMedal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996071#Comment_3996071

    Not only does that ignore the amount of busted things Killer has had over the years in equal measure, it also ignores what I said. I said there is a self-imposed pity and borderline leper culture around Killer. Now that doesn't mean that the role is in a perfect spot or that it's a bed of roses every trial, but it does mean that there is a heavy emotional anchor that always needs to be considered when it comes to topics like these.

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996169#Comment_3996169

    It could be, but I personally haven't seen that commonly enough to consider it too strongly. Mind you, I don't say these things lightly and they naturally don't apply to every individual player. I'm talking about the community as a whole based on what I've seen on every platform I've lurked/discussed the game on, so don't shoot the messenger. Someone else might have a completely different experience or perspective from me.

    Sorry, but that's a projection so pure that Tuco is interested in selling it.

    For each crying killer I had seen in these forums or the game, I had seen dozens of survivors that obviously hadn't played killer for more than 5 minutes claiming that even with all the basekit mechanics and indirect help survivors received over the years, Killers are the ones getting hand-held and that both the game and BHVR is Killer sided. To the point of defending cheating and exploiting bugs because "Killers OP".

    One of my favorite "gameplay experiences as a Killer main" I had was that time a bully squad called me a baby killer, a slugger and desired for me to "not wake up in the morning next time I go to sleep" because I downed one of them, and the other 3, with flashlights and toolboxes, wanted to prevent me from hooking him at any cost, which resulted in all of them getting downed and hooked soon after. According to them, what I should have done is let them do the save and win.

    But no, yeah, obviously the killer mains are the ones with the leper culture that take it all too emotionally and do not realize or care for the amount of advantages and hand-holding they have in the game. The survivor community has a strong grip on the realities of the game and in no way or form starts complaining and brigading everywhere just based on their subjective opinion.

    And just curious, what are the "amount of busted things Killer has had over the years", exactly? The Eruption meta? In fact, where is our "anti-genrushing system" to prevent survivors from doing all gens without being able to kill one?

    Oh, and by the way…

    image.png

    Can you show me your most used killer, please? Just so we have context of your point of view.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @UnicornMedal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994048#Comment_3994048

    You also see a narrative for the entire game's lifespan that Killers are the most pitiable and weakest group of players and that every entity, official or otherwise, is against them. You see entire communities split off into Killer-only groups because they're convinced that any pushback is evidence that they are othered. It takes the odds being objectively stacked in their favor to the point that their opponents are more likely to give up every trial than to play it out in order for the game to look balanced from their perspective.

    All of this to say—the backlash is prominent and expected, but that doesn't mean that it's more valuable as a result. Let's see how the PTB plays out and go from there.

    Instahealing, instaflashlights, infinite loops, take the killer hostage, old DH, old MfT, overpowered perk combos not touched in years… No, yeah, no, killers had no reason to complain ever in the whole story of this game, and it has never been a survivor-sided power trip.

    Come on, dude.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @GentlemanFridge said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994875#Comment_3994875

    I'm gonna go through this by point.

    • I'm inclined to wait and see how the current systems affect slugging before we change anything. Remember that 90 seconds is a long time in DbD terms.
    • Sure? I do not have a strong opinion on this.

    • The Killer Instict proposal I hard-disagree with. We want to discourage tunnelling as much as we can, not allow a loophole.
    • I'd err on the side of caution with this one. I'd prefer to make using an item a Conspicious action. They removed collision to remove instances of bodyblocking to subvert the protection mechanics.
    • Items yes, which I think was already the case? With perks I'd go on a case-by-case basis, if any.
    • Agreed, though I'd argue that the removal of collision is a part of this.
    • I haven't played the PTB, so I'm not sure what this is referring to? This sounds like the effects of Kindred. Do you want to kill Kindred? That's quite a hit to solo players.
    • Agreed.
    • This assumes that the three survivors that are not being chased aren't doing gens. A game with a hard tunneler (that also isn't, say, Nurse) will progress past 2 gens being done before the first kill happens, simply because they have nothing else to do. This also encourages stalling on the survivor side in the case of a tunnelling killer. They can just leave gens at 99%, 'claim' the speed bonus, and then complete the gens.
    • You're moving the issue here.
      • What's stopping the killer from slugging the unhooked, applying pressure elsewhere, then returning to the unhooked survivor when they've been helped up to down and kill them? This turns it into a tunnel from hook into a tunnel from slug.

    I'm inclined to wait and see how the current systems affect slugging before we change anything. Remember that 90 seconds is a long time in DbD terms.

    90 seconds is nothing. SWF with a couple of flashlights, and a survivor can spend half that time under a pallet while the killer is dealing with the orbiters going for a save. Also, with the other changes that remove any need to lose generator time to pick up that survivor, it is almost impossible to generate any pressure as a killer by slugging.

    The Killer Instict proposal I hard-disagree with. We want to discourage tunnelling as much as we can, not allow a loophole.

    Then Legion's power needs to be buffed by reducing the number of hits needed, as now even with the 4 survivors alive, it will be impossible for him to get it if one survivor has been unhooked in the last 30 seconds.

    Also, they get their advantages for 30 seconds now, and there is nothing preventing the killer from simply following that survivor from the hook if he really wants to tunnel him (which is the fun part of this mechanic, that it doesn't really prevent hard tunneling at all). So, I don't think your argument here is valid.

    I'd err on the side of caution with this one. I'd prefer to make using an item a Conspicious action. They removed collision to remove instances of bodyblocking to subvert the protection mechanics.

    I prefer to do both. As I said, the reason for removing the use of items while the hook effects are active is because they had literally made the unavoidable flashbang exploit, basekit (without collision, they can get inside the killer, drop the flashbang, and the killer can't do anything to avoid it).

    About the bodyblocking, I don't know exactly what you mean with "subvert the protection mechanics", to be honest. But just take into account that using a medkit to heal (as using an item is not a conspicuous action per se, but healing is) removes the lack of collision.

    So, use your lack of collision to get in front of the killer, use the medkit with Styptic Agent and Anti-Hemorrhagic Syringe, and voila! Perfect bodyblocking with Endurance.

    Items yes, which I think was already the case? With perks I'd go on a case-by-case basis, if any.

    The perk part was before I thought that it would be better to simply lose the activation of the "Generator blocking" if the survivor got up in any way.

    About the items, no, they aren't right now. As I said, the only items that are technically considered a "conspicuous action" are toolboxes and medkits, as even if using the item itself is not, repairing and healing are.

    Which means they can still use flashbangs, flashlights and fog vials while maintaining the 30 seconds buffs from being unhooked.

    Agreed, though I'd argue that the removal of collision is a part of this.

    That's the funny thing. The lack of collision does not prevent survivors from doing protection hits. In fact, it only makes them easier and more beneficial as now you can't hook that survivor again without getting punished (8:50, if the video doesn't start directly on that point):

    https://youtu.be/IiP3TWf_pHg?si=hqOjSvcZm3oqW2Vh&t=530

    I haven't played the PTB, so I'm not sure what this is referring to? This sounds like the effects of Kindred. Do you want to kill Kindred? That's quite a hit to solo players.

    I don't have any problem with Kindred. It is one of the effects survivors get when unhooked now. Free 32 meters killer aura reading for 30 seconds:

    image.png

    That's what I want removed.

    Agreed.

    To be fair, it is part of the update, but it was not explained well in the notes that stated you will be able to see "the last hooked survivor". Something good in this patch.

    This assumes that the three survivors that are not being chased aren't doing gens. A game with a hard tunneler (that also isn't, say, Nurse) will progress past 2 gens being done before the first kill happens, simply because they have nothing else to do. This also encourages stalling on the survivor side in the case of a tunnelling killer. They can just leave gens at 99%, 'claim' the speed bonus, and then complete the gens.

    If they do that against a tunneling killer, I think it's a smart move from the survivors, and I won't care. In fact, that's what we need: mechanics that reward good plays, not only hand-hold you by handcuffing and punishing the other part.

    The problem is that as it is right now, the survivor dying doesn't need to die by being tunneled (meaning, they don't even have to be the last hooked survivor or die on hook, simply die) and they can get the 25% with just 2 or 1 gen left, which makes it impossible for the killer to make a comeback.

    In fact, right now, if a survivor dies by a Reverse Trap from Pig without being hooked even once, it will activate the supposed "anti-early tunneling" mechanic. The same with Sadako's Condemn. And even better, if that survivor killed was the last one hooked as well, it will activate the generator blocking (meaning no regression for the rest of the match). Again, this punishes even the killers designed to kill the survivors without any hook done, tunneling or not.

    And for anyone saying that 25% is not that much… you are wrong:

    image.png

    You're moving the issue here.

    What's stopping the killer from slugging the unhooked, applying pressure elsewhere, then returning to the unhooked survivor when they've been helped up to down and kill them? This turns it into a tunnel from hook into a tunnel from slug.

    The survivors been smart enough to not get up, whether it is by themselves or with help, while the killer can get them again instantly. Just as right now in live, I mean, it's not a good idea to get up someone in front of the killer without a plan (perk that grants endurance on getting up, etc.).

    What is preventing a killer from just following someone for 30 seconds to down and hook him again in the PTB right now? Absolutely nothing. The difference between my proposal and BHVR is that mine doesn't punish killers that aren't really tunneling.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @HoS said:

    Guys, can we simply just agree that 25% is definitely not "nothing" but it's also not gamebreaking, it's very strong but I'd like to see on the long term how this actually plays in a 3v1 at one gen left, two gens and three gens left. Beyond that is unwinnable.
    42s for a duo does seem very fast though.

    I disagree. It's not gamebreaking now. The moment survivors start to pick up and make use of it, especially SWF, gens are going to fly even with one survivor out of the match.

    In fact, let's see more numbers with the 25% bonus applied (PD: Please, someone tell me that I'm wrong and toolboxes don't work this way. I'm serious. These numbers are ridiculous):

    And let's remember, this doesn't even count great skillchecks, a third survivor or the other many ways you can receive even more repair bonuses or reduce total charges on gens…

    So, how is going to play out if the changes in the PTB get to live as is? Simple, at minimum:

    • SWF exploiting these mechanics to get an enormous advantage and / or ending games in a flash.
    • A rise in the pick rate of high-tier, high-mobility killers, as now they are definitely the only ones able to compete.
    • A rise of tunneling and facecamping with endgame builds, as now you will be at a disadvantage most of the match, so people will get his real fight at the endgame when generators don't matter.
    • A reduction of killer mains that will simply start playing survivor or stop playing the game altogether.

    And after some time, BHVR, in all their wisdom, will release a patch to solve all this… by punishing the killer if he looks at the hooked survivor for more than 3 seconds, and another one that opens the exit gates if the killer is in a 40 meters range from the hook.

    That's it. I don't need to get a punch in the guts to know how is going to play out and that it will hurt a lot.

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @GentlemanFridge said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994839#Comment_3994839

    Just so we're clear on what we're talking about here, what do you think is the "disease" here?

    Also, I think it's somewhat curious that we're calling it 'handholding', when tunnelling has been the path of least resistance for the game's entire lifespan. Moreover, even if the mechanics activate, the survivors are still down one man, which is still a far superior pressure method, by simple virtue of tasks needing to be done versus the people available to do it. A faster speed is hardly going to matter if you never get the chance to use it because you're busy saving, being chased, on hook, etc..

    I'll get to your second post tomorrow, I've had a long day and I don't think tired me is capable of combing through your proposals properly.

    You would be right if it wasn't because they get a 25% repair bonus for just a survivor dying. Without any condition on what part of the match this triggers, and even if the killer wasn't tunneling at all.

    For instance, a 25% repair bonus means a base repair speed of 1.25 charges per second. That's one survivor repairing a gen in 72 seconds without taking into account any perk or item. Two survivors? 42.3 seconds, which is lower than 3 survivors on one gen without any progression bonus (42.8 seconds aprox).

    Now, let's assume this situation:

    • M1 killer with no mobility.
    • Survivor A is hooked.
    • Survivor B is hooked.
    • Survivor A is hooked again.
    • After a while, Survivor A makes a mistake and walks directly to the killer.
    • 3 gens had been done in this time.

    Now, the killer has these options:

    • Ignore Survivor A and waste more time that he doesn't have finding, chasing, downing, and hooking another survivor.
    • Slug Survivor A and, again, waste more time. Except this is no longer a viable option, as you now don't get any pressure from slugging.
    • Down and hook Survivor A again. He just granted the other 3 survivors a 25% repair bonus and the ability to not regress or block the 2 gens left, completely denying any chance of a comeback at this point.

    In other words, he was punished even when he wasn't tunneling and the survivor was the one making a mistake. It makes it so the killer is the one punished for survivors mistakes and prevents them from even trying to make a comeback mid to late game if their only option to have a chance was getting one survivor out of the game.

    So again, these mechanics don't address tunneling. It's just another hand-holding, safe-net mechanic for survivors in disguise.

    Just so we're clear on what we're talking about here, what do you think is the "disease" here?

    In the core, gen times. On top of it, there are the multiple changes to healing, the amount of second-chance perks survivors can use to make chases longer, and all the basekit mechanics they implemented over the years that made the problem worse. To the point of making slugging survivors more viable than hooking.

    And BHVR, instead of addressing the main issue before trying to fix the problems it caused, kept releasing hand-holding basekit mechanics one after the other to the point of literally letting survivors quit a lost match and count it as a win.

    Now, this new patch that punishes those who don't even tunnel. Because again, nobody is saying they should not implement systems to prevent hard tunneling and slugging, but this is not it.

    So, they either didn't even listen to what killers have been saying for years now, or they simply don't care about the killer experience at all. There is no other conclusion.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @GentlemanFridge said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994612#Comment_3994612

    Tunneling and slugging have been complained about for as long as the game's been popular. Not listening to those complaints would have been even more tone death.

    And no, it's not proof. It's conjecture based on an emotional response to the changes.

    In fact, want to fix this atrocious update and make it "fair" and really punish tunnelers, not just killers doing good? Here is my version:

    Anti-Slugging system:

    • If the survivor is in the dying state for 90 consecutive seconds, he can get up without any help.
      • The timer resets everytime the survivor is downed.
    • Revert the auto-recovery change. You need to stay still and push the button to recover.

    That's it. They will still be able to move fast over time, but at least in the last stages of the match you will be able to get some pressure, as they will have to still recover most of the bar by themselves or make another survivor lose some time healing them if they decide to move for help.

    Anti-Losing Tunneling system:

    • Revert unhooked survivors being immune to killer instinct.
      • In other words, remove the Legion indirect nerf.
    • Prevent survivors from using items while the unhook effects are active / Remove losing collision with the killer.
      • Don't allow flashbang exploits.
    • Make the use of items and activated perks a Conspicuous action.
      • Relevant later.
    • Prevent survivors from getting hit while unhook effects are active.
      • No more weaponizing free Endurance by bodyblocking and then crying for being hooked again.
    • Remove seeing the killer aura while unhooked.
      • No free info for SWF.
    • Allow Killers to see hook phases in addition to the last hooked survivor.
      • Something that should be already in the game, more so now with all the conditions on hooks.
    • Change repair speed buff condition: If the last hooked survivor is killed while less than 2 gens are done, the rest of the survivors get a repair buff (not friking 25%, tho).
      • Still not good, as survivors should not be rewarded for losing. But at least now don't punish the killer for playing good, and it still allow him for a comeback mid-late game while compensating survivors for early tunneling.
    • Change to regression block: If the last hooked survivor is killed after being downed before 60 seconds have passed since being unhooked, all generators can't be regressed or blocked.
      • Truly penalize only tunnelers.
      • It activates if the last hooked survivor is downed again in 60 seconds after being unhooked to prevent the killer from just slugging him and wait.
      • If a conspicuous action is done before the time passes, it will deactivate.
      • If the survivor gets up from the dying state by any means, it will deactivate.
      • The killer will see the effect time left alongside the last survivor hooked icon in the UI / will warn the killer that hooking that survivor will get him punished, so he knows when he can hook him again safely.
      • This, along with all other changes, should allow for the unhooked survivor to get to safety and not be worthy for the killer to tunnel him.

    No more hand-holding, exploiting reduced to the maximum, and it still compensate survivors for having one of them die soon on the match. All that without punishing killers that are playing good, reduce the amount of times a killer can be put in lose / lose situations, and really punishing hard tunnelers.

    5 minutes took me to thought this, so forgive me if I can't believe that a team of 300 people can't come up with something like this or better instead of the abomination they are testing right now.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994642#Comment_3994642

    You're being very unpleasant, you know that?

    I'm happy to have a conversation if it's civil.

    In other words, you are happy to have a conversation when you can use twisted logic and fallacies to defend the indefensible. I didn't let you do that and proved you wrong, so now you don't have anything more to say. Even less now that there is no more "we have to wait for the numbers" excuse.

    Got it, nice talk.

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @GentlemanFridge said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994612#Comment_3994612

    Tunneling and slugging have been complained about for as long as the game's been popular. Not listening to those complaints would have been even more tone death.

    And no, it's not proof. It's conjecture based on an emotional response to the changes.

    And nobody is saying they should not address it. But first, this is not anti-tunneling, this are just more handholding basekit mechanics for survivors that punish killers whatever they are tunneling or not, and protect survivors for doing bad.

    Second, they need to address first why killers tunnel and slug before addressing hard tunneling and slugging itself. In short, they should cure the disease before trying to heal the symptoms, or they are just going to make it all worst (like, with this patch).

    Third, yes, it's more than enough proof by now. The only good thing about this patch is that it is showing the people that really wants the game to be balanced, and those who doesn't even understand the game they are playing and just want a one sided powertrip.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993699#Comment_3993699

    The reason it's hyper-specific to Trapper is because there is, not to be pedantic, a giant difference between just happening not to find another survivor before stumbling across survivor A again, and survivor A stepping in a bear trap soon after unhooking. The principle may mostly apply across the cast, but it's both significantly more impactful for Trapper, and also missing a key distinction that I'll touch on in a moment.
    But, genuinely, I'm fine looking at the other scenarios for other killers, so let's do that next.

    First off, the big obvious elephant in the room to acknowledge: When it comes to just not finding other survivors, the game is set to change so that's very unlikely to happen. Remember, the dev update also includes basekit information to help you get into another chase ASAP— these changes have to be looked at holistically, they're clearly all designed to feed in to one another.

    Second, we're still not acknowledging the core point: We do not know if the repair speed buff is actually enough to outweigh having a dead survivor. It is extremely likely that getting a survivor dead opportunistically is completely worth trading away the remaining generators being a touch faster.
    After all, there's a degree to which it kinda doesn't matter how much faster survivors can do generators if none of them have the breathing room to actually sit at one for any extended period of time. It has to be a really huge bonus for them to get work done in a situation like that.

    Again, this must be made clear- we do not know if it is a punishment. We do not know if it leaves you worse off than keeping that survivor alive.
    If the number is low enough, it's a tiny bit of a comeback mechanic to stop trials from effectively ending too early but won't make a huge difference. If the number is high enough, we have more reason to be concerned about the occasional misfire or survivor mistake being accommodated for. We can't be conclusive about this until we know what the numbers are.

    Third and finally, it should be acknowledged - though it isn't the core point and isn't the main thing to consider - that you can still slug survivor A if it really comes to it. That's still an option, it's less pressure but it's still pressure. The killer will have options to deal with situations like this even if the repair speed buff is genuinely that extreme, or you'd be at risk of the other penalty instead/as well.

    Lastly, this isn't a point in response to yours but just a reminder: This isn't necessarily a defence of the specific implementation of these ideas (mostly because we don't know the specific implementation), it's more a conversation about the ideas. Mulling over the potential problems and providing counter examples to those potential problems.
    It's a discussion, about whether or not these things are problems. We don't have enough information yet to defend or criticise these ideas too concretely.

    Well, we already have the numbers. And it is even WORSE than anybody could have thought, with a sprinkle of regression perks on top of it all.

    Anything more to say? Aren't you going to keep defending these atrocious changes?

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @GentlemanFridge said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3994048#Comment_3994048

    Firstly, I was responding to OP, not you per se.

    Second, your 'proof' is based on assumptions. That's not helping anyone.

    The PTB notes are not enough proof to you? Because is more than enough for me.

    You can't be any more tone deaf than this. It's impossible that after years of the killer community predicting where the game was going with all the wrong changes they have done and warning them about what the real problems are, they not just decide to keep ignoring them but literally made the Survivor's Rule Book basekit on top of punishing the killer for playing good and smart AND, because why not at this point, nerfing regression perks once again.

    They don't play killer, they don't listen to killers, they don't care about killers, and worst of all, they don't care about balance the game. Just make baby entitled survivors happy so they keep buying cosmetics.

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @Emeal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993664#Comment_3993664

    So turns out its 25% vs 3v1 and it doesnt work if Survivors leave their Survivors on hook.

    That isnt strong.

    If that's true… are you telling me that one survivor doing a gen in 72 seconds and two in 42 seconds IS NOT STRONG? When it can activate with any amount of gens left????

    Dude, you are delusional. Like, seriously.

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993699#Comment_3993699

    The reason it's hyper-specific to Trapper is because there is, not to be pedantic, a giant difference between just happening not to find another survivor before stumbling across survivor A again, and survivor A stepping in a bear trap soon after unhooking. The principle may mostly apply across the cast, but it's both significantly more impactful for Trapper, and also missing a key distinction that I'll touch on in a moment.
    But, genuinely, I'm fine looking at the other scenarios for other killers, so let's do that next.

    First off, the big obvious elephant in the room to acknowledge: When it comes to just not finding other survivors, the game is set to change so that's very unlikely to happen. Remember, the dev update also includes basekit information to help you get into another chase ASAP— these changes have to be looked at holistically, they're clearly all designed to feed in to one another.

    Second, we're still not acknowledging the core point: We do not know if the repair speed buff is actually enough to outweigh having a dead survivor. It is extremely likely that getting a survivor dead opportunistically is completely worth trading away the remaining generators being a touch faster.
    After all, there's a degree to which it kinda doesn't matter how much faster survivors can do generators if none of them have the breathing room to actually sit at one for any extended period of time. It has to be a really huge bonus for them to get work done in a situation like that.

    Again, this must be made clear- we do not know if it is a punishment. We do not know if it leaves you worse off than keeping that survivor alive.
    If the number is low enough, it's a tiny bit of a comeback mechanic to stop trials from effectively ending too early but won't make a huge difference. If the number is high enough, we have more reason to be concerned about the occasional misfire or survivor mistake being accommodated for. We can't be conclusive about this until we know what the numbers are.

    Third and finally, it should be acknowledged - though it isn't the core point and isn't the main thing to consider - that you can still slug survivor A if it really comes to it. That's still an option, it's less pressure but it's still pressure. The killer will have options to deal with situations like this even if the repair speed buff is genuinely that extreme, or you'd be at risk of the other penalty instead/as well.

    Lastly, this isn't a point in response to yours but just a reminder: This isn't necessarily a defence of the specific implementation of these ideas (mostly because we don't know the specific implementation), it's more a conversation about the ideas. Mulling over the potential problems and providing counter examples to those potential problems.
    It's a discussion, about whether or not these things are problems. We don't have enough information yet to defend or criticise these ideas too concretely.

    The reason it's hyper-specific to Trapper is because there is, not to be pedantic, a giant difference between just happening not to find another survivor before stumbling across survivor A again, and survivor A stepping in a bear trap soon after unhooking.

    There's no difference: You can't kill that survivor, or you will get punished for it. The concept and outcome are exactly the same. If you want to make an example of a concept applicable to multiple scenarios specific to one because it benefits your argument, that is your problem.

    Also, it's funny that you pretend to tell me what my own argument meant.

    Remember, the dev update also includes basekit information to help you get into another chase ASAP— these changes have to be looked at holistically, they're clearly all designed to feed in to one another.

    Yeah, because survivors knowing that after a hook their aura is revealed would just stay in the same place so the killer can get them. In no way is it possible that the survivor has either left or hidden by the time a non-mobility killer gets to where his aura was shown.

    Obviously, they thought about it a lot and compensated for the enormous penalties the other mechanics applied.

    Second, we're still not acknowledging the core point: We do not know if the repair speed buff is actually enough to outweigh having a dead survivor.

    The one not acknowledging the core point here is you. And the true core point is: Why should survivors get any buff just because the killer is playing well and / or punishing them for their mistakes?

    The numbers don't matter. The important thing here is why can the game put me in a situation where I get penalized and / or the other team rewarded for completing my main objective, and how is that fair? Because again, using that logic, let's implement an anti-genrushing mechanic for survivors:

    • If two generators are done without a hook happening in between, survivors get a repair penalty and reveal their aura to the killer.
    • If the first 3 gens are done without a kill happening, all survivors get Exposed until one kill happens.

    That is a fair compensation mechanic for the ones they pretend to implement, not some conditional haste, regression, and aura reading that depends on the killer you are playing.

    After all, there's a degree to which it kinda doesn't matter how much faster survivors can do generators if none of them have the breathing room to actually sit at one for any extended period of time. It has to be a really huge bonus for them to get work done in a situation like that.

    Well, you are saying it yourself. There is no way that the numbers are not so ridiculously beneficial to survivors that it is not an advantage, or what would be the point to even implement it?

    We all are saying "on paper", "it's just a dev log, not a patch" and "we'll have to wait for the PTB", but in reality we all know how it's going to be.

    Again, this must be made clear- we do not know if it is a punishment. We do not know if it leaves you worse off than keeping that survivor alive. […] We can't be conclusive about this until we know what the numbers are.

    We do. But again, the problem is that it shouldn't even be an option. This system is supposed to punish tunnelers, not hand-hold survivors and benefit them in any degree just because the first survivor died too early or one survivor was hooked twice in a row. That's it.

    Third and finally, it should be acknowledged - though it isn't the core point and isn't the main thing to consider - that you can still slug survivor A if it really comes to it.

    No, you can't. Because unless it is changed, the moment a survivor reaches 90 seconds on the ground, he will get free Unbreakable. So, there is no reason to go get up that survivor, because sooner or later he will get up by himself.

    Everybody is going to continue doing gens while that survivor uses his free Tenacity to get close to them, building both recovery and those 90 seconds up. If the survivor gets there before the gen is completed, the other survivor gets him up instantly, and both finish the gen. If the gen is done before, the one doing the gen can catch him up midway and get him up instantly. If he gets those 90 seconds, now he can get up without any help for the rest of the match.

    In other words, you can't get pressure by slugging survivors anymore. Not at the start of the match, where at least 2 survivors will keep doing gens, and not at the end, where they gain free Unbreakable and are able to get up themselves. That's one of the other problems here.

    […] Mulling over the potential problems and providing counter examples to those potential problems. It's a discussion, about whether or not these things are problems.

    There is no discussion. They are problems without any doubt, and the only true solution would be to ditch the whole thing.

    But we have to do it, right? Survivors need Daddy BHVR to hold their hand even more than they already do, or they will cry? All right, let's solve all problems with this atrocious mechanic. And I'm going to be extremely generous.

    Anti-Slugging system:

    • If the survivor is in the dying state for 90 consecutive seconds, he can get up without any help.
      • The timer resets everytime the survivor is downed.
    • Revert the auto-recovery change. You need to stay still and push the button to recover.

    That's it. They will still be able to move fast over time, but at least in the last stages of the match you will be able to get some pressure, as they will have to still recover most of the bar by themselves or make another survivor lose some time healing them if they decide to move for help.

    Anti-Losing Tunneling system:

    • Revert unhooked survivors being immune to killer instinct.
      • In other words, remove the Legion indirect nerf.
    • Prevent survivors from using items while the unhook effects are active / Remove losing collision with the killer.
      • Don't allow flashbang exploits.
    • Make the use of items and activated perks a Conspicuous action.
      • Relevant later.
    • Prevent survivors from getting hit while unhook effects are active.
      • No more weaponizing free Endurance by bodyblocking and then crying for being hooked again.
    • Remove seeing the killer aura while unhooked.
      • No free info for SWF.
    • Allow Killers to see hook phases in addition to the last hooked survivor.
      • Something that should be already in the game, more so now with all the conditions on hooks.
    • Change repair speed buff condition: If the last hooked survivor is killed while less than 2 gens are done, the rest of the survivors get a repair buff.
      • Still not good, as again, survivors should not be rewarded for losing. But at least now don't punish the killer for playing good, and it still allow him for a comeback mid-late game while compensating survivors for early tunneling.
    • Change to regression block: If the last hooked survivor is killed after being downed before 60 seconds have passed since being unhooked, all generators can't be regressed or blocked.
      • Truly penalize only tunnelers.
      • It activates if the last hooked survivor is downed again in 60 seconds after being unhooked to prevent the killer from just slugging him and wait.
      • If a conspicuous action is done before the time passes, it will deactivate.
      • If the survivor gets up from the dying state by any means, it will deactivate.
      • The killer will see the effect time left alongside the last survivor hooked icon in the UI, so he knows when he can hook him again.
      • This, along with all other changes, should allow for the unhooked survivor to get to safety and not be worthy for the killer to tunnel him.

    Extra:

    • All hooking benefits for the killer stay in the end game.

    Or:

    • Free Haste and Endurance on unhook are also deactivated at the end game.
      • Time to either stop granting survivors that don't know how to coordinate saves guaranteed escapes or let me chase the other survivors till the end.

    Extra 2:

    • My Anti-Genrushing system, as explained earlier.
      • If the killer is punished for doing his objective too fast and not giving a chance to the survivors, the reverse should be true as well. It is only fair, right?…

    There. It still compensate survivors for not doing good early game, but at least there is less room for the killer to get put in lose / lose situations and, unlike the official version, it really punishes tunneling while preventing any major exploits of the mechanics.

    But of course, these changes are not as hand-holding as the originals, so I have the hunch that for one reason or another, you are not going to like them...

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993681#Comment_3993681

    …Okay, I'm still interested in this conversation, but for the record: Clarifying my position is not moving the goalposts, and I'm not cherrypicking the six-hook limit penalty, that's just what this thread is about.
    For the record, I do believe the other penalty to be more severe, but it's also the one that is completely within the killer's control to avoid- this thread is about how the repair speed buff may come into play without malicious intent, with OP talking about Sadako specifically and other comments discussing other elements.

    Now, moving on, I do have a few things to say.

    The first and most obvious thing to point out is that moving to a 1v3 improves the killer's power at any time, and while it does scale down in effectiveness the more gens are completed, it doesn't take a particularly big hit until all the gens are done.
    This is because the killer, in a 1v3, is capable of reducing gen repair to zero through regular gameplay alone. Hook, get in chase, someone peels off to rescue… nobody's on generators. In a 1v4 scenario, there's one survivor spare to do gens.
    This scales to other concepts, too- there's just one less survivor to react to anything the killer does. You can snowball not because gen repair takes longer, but because there's just fewer survivors to juggle everything that needs doing.

    Now, second, the Trapper example. It's worth pointing out that this is a problem that is hyper-specific to that one killer, but that is a specific scenario worth considering. While I absolutely recommend changes to Trapper to alleviate this problem - I'm cooking a potential post that I want to make after I see the PTB and have a more complete understanding - it's worth taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture.

    Most specifically, you ask why you should be punished, but that's what people have been attempting to convey to you. Is it a punishment to be rewarded less than you were before? Is it a punishment to get 50% extra power instead of 100% extra power?
    No, of course not. It's still a reward, it's just a lesser reward. It still benefits you, it just isn't as potent as it used to be. This is the key point to consider, and I'm not saying you have to agree but I am saying it is the thing people are largely talking about here.

    The bottom line is two very important things, which I'll bullet point for convenience:

    • Whether or not the repair speed buff is a punishment or just less of a reward depends ENTIRELY on what percentage it is, and we can't know that until tomorrow.
    • An early 1v3 is so tremendously powerful that it's practically unwinnable for 99% of survivor teams. While the specific implementation is worth discussing, the general idea of lessening that is completely worth exploring.

    Now, second, the Trapper example. It's worth pointing out that this is a problem that is hyper-specific to that one killer, but that is a specific scenario worth considering.

    It can be Trapper, it can be Pig, it can be Ghostface… it can be any M1 killer without mobility (in fact, it can be any killer, but those are more affected by this) that has to pass the opportunity of taking out a survivor from the game when he needs it because then they will grant speed / prevent gen regression for the rest of the match, no matter how many gens are left. It's not my fault that you are unable to understand that an example of a situation is not to be taken literally but as a way of visualizing a concept. But hey, I will give it a more generic context for you.

    If you are playing killer and, for example:

    • You hook Survivor A.
    • You hook Survivor B.
    • You find Survivor A before getting healed. Hook him again.
    • You don't find any other survivor for a while. Survivor A walks to you by mistake.
    • There are only 3-2 gens left.

    Again, your options are:

    • Ignore him and lose more time that you don't have finding, chasing, and hooking someone else.
    • Granting speed and not being able to regress the gens left to the other survivors.

    The survivor doesn't get punished for his mistake, and you get punished whatever you do instead. And even if it wasn't by the survivor mistake and you just find him again, the same will still apply.

    Is it a punishment to be rewarded less than you were before?

    Yes, especially when you are punished for playing well, and the ones rewarded are those that would lose the match otherwise (by, for example, leaving gens undone to go for saves when you have 70 seconds per phase and no need to rush it, or losing time healing after a hook instead of investing that time finishing the last 2 gens, etc.).

    It is supposed to be a series of anti-tunneling mechanics but instead is just another hand-holding mechanic saving survivors from their own mistakes and incompetence. That's, again, one of the multiple problems with this, no matter what logic you want to apply trying to defend it.

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • I'm going to raise the bet here: Even if they obviously don't play, don't they have a consultant program where prominent DbD players give their opinions on future content?

    How is it possible that nobody looked at these changes and told them, "Bad idea"?

    in BHVR devs don't play killer: Prove me wrong. Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993664#Comment_3993664

    I think you might've misunderstood, no shade meant, so just so we're on the same page:

    The thing being contested here is not whether it benefits survivors at all, nor if it might affect you when you're not tunnelling someone. What's being contested is if it actually harms killer instead of benefiting the killer less.

    To illustrate what I mean, imagine some random numbers that are fully chosen here just because they're very simple.

    Imagine that, when the game progresses from 1v4 to 1v3, the killer grows in power by 100%. Again, this isn't meant to actually reflect the game itself, just to give you an easily understood starting point.

    What's being suggested here is that instead of the killer lowering in power by any percentage as they kill someone and the repair buff kicks in, the killer instead only grows in power by 50%. That benefits survivors in the sense that it's less damaging to them than it would've been before… but the killer isn't actually harmed. The killer gets stronger, just by a lower number. They're still stronger because someone's still dead, it's just not as BIG of an advantage as it would be in the game right now.

    That's why pointing out that it can activate at any time doesn't make the case for it tipping in the survivor's favour. You'd have to demonstrate why you think you would lose power instead gaining less power.

    (Though just to be clear I am ONLY talking about the repair speed buff here, not the inability to regress/block generators. Those are separate penalties with separate triggers, and I'm only talking about one of them.)

    Your attempt to move the goalpost would make sense if it wasn't because being 1v3 is only an advantage for the killer at the start of the match, where 3 survivors doing 5-4 gens is hard to accomplish.

    That's why, as I said, it triggering at any point in the match is a problem and puts the killer at disadvantage. Because with less than 3 gens left and 4 survivors alive, you don't have to kill a survivor and pray for them to snowball mistakes to have an advantage. You have to do it for just the chance to make a comeback because it's almost guaranteed you've already lost.

    Also, you cherry-picked the "repair speed buff" one, because you know that the other one is even worse, and you can't argue that it is a total advantage for survivors. If you are at 2 gens with 4 survivors alive and the only one in the second hook is the last survivor you hooked, or if the only survivor you found for a while is the last hooked, you can't kill him unless you can afford to not regress or block those 2 gens for the other 3 survivors.

    So, no matter how you want to look at it or what twisted logic you want to use. All this grants big benefits to survivors and hurts killers in many ways through all the match, especially those that are not high-mobility ones. That, on top of being highly exploitable, as I already explained to you in another post.

    Hand-holding, unfair, one-sided, and totally exploitable. There is no defense of this mechanics, at least as they are explained in the dev log.

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993479#Comment_3993479

    To be fair, that doesn't inherently mean it tips in the survivor's favour. Just saying that it could activate at any moment doesn't even make the case for it lessening the benefit of a dead survivor dependant on context, which is the take I'd personally agree with.

    I think it's premature to assume there'll be a lose/lose scenario here when we don't know how all of this looks. If the repair speed bonus survivors get for a death prior to six hooks is like, ten percent, it won't affect you in the least. If it's like, double speed, then we're looking at serious concerns for killers who end up with a death prior to six hooks because of survivor mistakes.

    It's not even unlikely that purposefully trading the repair speed buff for a dead survivor would be worth it, frankly. You do need to make the case for why this update - before we even know the numbers, mind you - would tip the situation into the survivor's favour as opposed to tipping it to the killer's favour less. That's the part that's being contested here.

    On paper, I kinda like the idea of that being a choice to weigh for more advanced players. Do I kill this survivor and snowball to victory, or slug them and keep the gens a bit slower?
    We just have to know what the numbers are before we know where any of this lands.

    I already made the case for why it tips into the survivors favor both by explaining…

    @Batusalen said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992952#Comment_3992952

    I literally told you why it is an issue. In fact, it is one of the biggest issues with these mechanics outside pure exploitation from the survivor part.

    If there are 4 survivors still alive and 3 gens have been done, the only way to make a comeback is by removing one survivor from the match and hoping for them to snowball. Something you won't be able to do if you have less than 6 hooks, even if survivors mess up and it will be their fault, because then you will be left with 3 buffed survivors and / or not be able to regress the last 2 gens. I think it is not that hard to understand.

    And gen rushing has been an issue for years now. And it will be even worse than before because, again, now we won't be able to counter it in the only way BHVR has left us (after so much hand-holding basekit mechanic and regression nerfing) without getting punished for it.

    @Batusalen said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993336#Comment_3993336

    And answering your question again: Because it can trigger at any moment of the match, with any number of gens done and survivors left, and it will punish you for the mistakes of the survivors instead of them. It will put the killer in lose / lose situations while allowing survivors to not get punished for their mistakes. It also allows the survivors to exploit it to put the killer at an even greater disadvantage.

    Seriously, it's not that hard to understand. You didn't even need that much playtime as a killer to know how this patch will affect the game.

    … and by example.

    If you are playing Trapper and, for example:

    · You hook Survivor A.

    · You hook Survivor B.

    · Survivor A got caught in a trap. Hook him again.

    · You don't find any other survivor for a while. Survivor A got caught in another trap.

    If you hook Survivor A again, even if you didn't tunnel that survivor in any way and that hook will be the result of their own incompetence, you don't get the "unique hook" buffs, you grant the rest of the survivors a boost on repair speed, and all gens can't be regressed or blocked at 2 - 3 gens done by now. So, you either ignore him and don't punish his mistake, or the game will punish you. Totally fair, not hand-holding at all.

    Also, in the main post of the update, where I already debunked your attempt to defend this, I also explained some of the ways survivors can exploit this mechanic to gain an unfair advantage.

    If you are unable to understand it or you are adamant to admit that on paper this update includes the most exploitable, hand-holding, and one-sided mechanics they have ever thought of, it's on you. Like it is now, it will give an unfair advantage and protect survivors from their mistakes, no matter the numbers they put there.

    The only good thing about this update is that it is showing who really cares about the balance of the game and who is just a survivor main in the worst meaning of the term that doesn't even understand the game he is playing.

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @Emeal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3993160#Comment_3993160

    My guy if Survivors have made it to 3 Gens and you have not made it to 6th hook and they decide to kill the last Survivor to gain the compensation and try their luck at using it then you should slug the Survivor and make a play, if you are Pig, Pyramid Head you will have to make the play with the compensation.

    Again I ask the question I made in my first post, Why do you think the 6th hool rule will be grossly in the Survivor's favour??

    And answering your question again: Because it can trigger at any moment of the match, with any number of gens done and survivors left, and it will punish you for the mistakes of the survivors instead of them. It will put the killer in lose / lose situations while allowing survivors to not get punished for their mistakes. It also allows the survivors to exploit it to put the killer at an even greater disadvantage.

    Seriously, it's not that hard to understand. You didn't even need that much playtime as a killer to know how this patch will affect the game.

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @Emeal said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3992925#Comment_3992925

    It being able to trigger at any point is not an issue, and Gen rushing is not the issue we are dealing with in this PTB, if its a big enough issue then maybe.

    I literally told you why it is an issue. In fact, it is one of the biggest issues with these mechanics outside pure exploitation from the survivor part.

    If there are 4 survivors still alive and 3 gens have been done, the only way to make a comeback is by removing one survivor from the match and hoping for them to snowball. Something you won't be able to do if you have less than 6 hooks, even if survivors mess up and it will be their fault, because then you will be left with 3 buffed survivors and / or not be able to regress the last 2 gens. I think it is not that hard to understand.

    And gen rushing has been an issue for years now. And it will be even worse than before because, again, now we won't be able to counter it in the only way BHVR has left us (after so much hand-holding basekit mechanic and regression nerfing) without getting punished for it.

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @Emeal said:

    It was thought through and the obvious conclusion is that it doesnt matter.

    If a player dies to Condemn, Trap or something else before 6th hooks the game just rebalances to 3v1, the advantage you would gain is nullified by the bonus Survivors get and so their death is inconsequential.

    Why do you think it will put the game grossly in the Survivors favour??

    Because it can trigger at any moment of the match, with any number of gens done and survivors left, and it will punish you for the mistakes of the survivors instead of them?

    If you are playing Trapper and, for example:

    • You hook Survivor A.
    • You hook Survivor B.
    • Survivor A got caught in a trap. Hook him again.
    • You don't find any other survivor for a while. Survivor A got caught in another trap.

    If you hook Survivor A again, even if you didn't tunnel that survivor in any way and that hook will be the result of their own incompetence, you don't get the "unique hook" buffs, you grant the rest of the survivors a boost on repair speed, and all gens can't be regressed or blocked at 2 - 3 gens done by now. So, you either ignore him and don't punish his mistake, or the game will punish you. Totally fair, not hand-holding at all.

    But hey, do you really want to compensate for these atrocious mechanics? Let's implement this for survivors:

    • If two generators are done without a hook happening in between, survivors get a repair penalty and reveal their aura to the killer.
    • If the first 3 gens are done without a kill happening, all survivors get Exposed until one kill happens.

    That's a great system to prevent gen rushing in compensation for the other changes, right?…

    in The "death before 6 hooks" penalty wasn't thought through Comment by Batusalen

  • @spfuiz said:

    I would like to share some feedback about the direction of balance decisions in Dead by Daylight.

    • I trust the development team’s internal testing and do not want to argue about specific numbers or details.
    • My concern is about whose voices are being heard the most.
    • Killer players, especially experienced ones, are very vocal on social media and forums.
    • Their feedback seems to influence changes much more often than Survivor feedback.
    • Casual Survivors, who make up the majority of the player base, usually leave the game silently instead of posting their frustrations.

    As a result, the game feels like it is gradually leaning too much toward Killers, even though there are far more Survivor players overall.

    I hope the team listens to both experienced Killer players and the majority of casual Survivors.

    Normally, saying this after all the survivor-sided updates and hand-holding mechanics from the last years would be a bad joke.

    But saying it after they announced the most tone deaf and survivor-sided update yet, based solely on the cries of the entitled survivors of twitter "majority"? Come on. This has to be ragebait.

    in Who’s Feedback Gets Heard Most in DBD? Comment by Batusalen

  • @BreezingWing said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990724#Comment_3990724

    I generally am of the opinion that this update will probably be good / okay with a few tweaks.
    Let me try my own reasoning:


    >Well, it certainly is your opinion. In reality, every second counts, as you are literally in a time limit (kill them before they finish the gens), and even hitting a survivor is time spent. <

    Okay so lets assume the person dead on hook is trying to get in your face to trigger the early death effect on purpose. Lets say you're chasing another player while they try to do that.
    hitting a survivor with a basic attack pre buff was 3 seconds of cooldown. twice to down the player is 6 seconds.
    times two for two survivors sitting on gens is 12 seconds of gen progress + unknown time of the chase being extended.

    The survivor staying slugged would waste 90 seconds of their time on the ground for the free pickup. that's 9 times amount of time equivalent wasted.
    To break even on time efficiency, they would need to extend the chase by at least 40 seconds (*2) for the initial chased survivor
    which im pretty sure is tier 3 bloodlust territory.

    Now, on the second go, they would only need to be slugged for 30~ ish seconds to get pick themselves up. that breaks even easily, but also doesnt count whatever time they commit finding a way to heal to throw 2 health states at you again.

    Idk im just not at all intimidated by any of this.

    Like i've spent most of the past few years listening to content creators say "making the game an early 1v3 is the easiest way to secure a win" and listening to everyone go "now survivors will make every game into an early 1v3 because they were promised some non specific buffs to gen speed and disabled regression" really sounds like crazy land to me.

    Here is my answer:

    @Batusalen said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990749#Comment_3990749

    Raising the barrier for entry for bodyblocking by making it impossible with the basekit features and requiring the use of a specific item with a specific addon is also weakening this strategy, not improving it. Nothing in this new proposal is going to make it worse.

    This part alone makes clear that you didn't understand the problem, or my point, at all.

    For the bodyblocking, the only thing they need is to know that after getting hooked once, they can't be hooked again unless the killer wants to deal with a series of punishments, each worse than the last. That's it. Just knowing that, they can now do whatever is in their hands to waste the killer's time and try to force him to hook them again.

    The other things, like the flashbang exploit with no collision and such, only make that problem bigger or are other ways survivors can exploit these mechanics. The only thing also relevant to the bodyblocking is that the slugging changes make the obvious counter to it not an option anymore, as after being slugged for 90 seconds total, they won't even need another survivor to get up themselves.

    But the funny thing is, even if survivors don't abuse these mechanics, they will put a lot of killers in disadvantageous situations by themselves: You are playing Trapper, and the Dwight you hooked for the second time has fallen into yet another trap, meters away from you? Well, you can't hook him again, or you will lose your ability to regress gens. Sorry! Just go to the other side of the map to catch another survivor first without being able to slug him for pressure.

    In conclusion, these mechanics are completely overtuned and exploitable on paper, and I hope BHVR really thought them through and there is more to them than what they have explained until now, or it will be a disaster.

    And with this, I don't have anything more to say on the matter.

    in Developer Update | August 2025 Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990724#Comment_3990724

    So, a clarifying point.

    We cannot in good faith talk about bodyblocking from aggressive just-unhooked survivors without acknowledging it isn't instant and they don't get to teleport. When I talk about getting to chase two survivors without giving much in return, I'm talking about the process of attempting to bodyblock.
    Sure, a survivor that swoops in at the right moment to bodyblock and then vanishes back into the mist to go do generators is definitely harming your chase, no two ways about it. That's just not the scenario we're talking about- we're talking about someone following you around after they're unhooked and trying to get into a position where you have to hit them in order to keep moving.

    Even when they are capable of doing that, which frankly is only even realistically doable on every map because Shack entrance can be blocked this way, it still takes time following you around to set it up. That's time off gens, and I don't think the average attempt pays off in the least.

    For an example of what I'm talking about here, think about flashlight saves. For every one smart and successful flashlight save that provides big value… there's nine flubbed saves from someone that was following the killer around for the whole chase losing time and value for their team. It's the same with this kind of bodyblocking.

    Even assuming someone wants to bodyblock after an unhook and is willing to forfeit all the anti-tunnel protections to do it, they still have to try and get in position and that isn't guaranteed to happen soon enough for them not to be losing time overall.

    (Though, as an aside, using a medkit absolutely turns off Endurance, healing is a Conspicuous Action. They'd NEED to use the Endurance syringe for this to work.)

    This all ties in to the slugging point. Yes, they can get up from the dying state (though the new proposed way of doing that is really slow, it must be said), but that time is on top of the time they spent getting themselves into this position to begin with.

    It's not something that'll never work, but realistically, it isn't nearly as "free value" as some make it out to be. Survivors swarming you is broadly a good thing, even if it's annoying to face and can easily fluster you into making mistakes.

    Raising the barrier for entry for bodyblocking by making it impossible with the basekit features and requiring the use of a specific item with a specific addon is also weakening this strategy, not improving it. Nothing in this new proposal is going to make it worse.

    Raising the barrier for entry for bodyblocking by making it impossible with the basekit features and requiring the use of a specific item with a specific addon is also weakening this strategy, not improving it. Nothing in this new proposal is going to make it worse.

    This part alone makes clear that you didn't understand the problem, or my point, at all.

    For the bodyblocking, the only thing they need is to know that after getting hooked once, they can't be hooked again unless the killer wants to deal with a series of punishments, each worse than the last. That's it. Just knowing that, they can now do whatever is in their hands to waste the killer's time and try to force him to hook them again.

    The other things, like the flashbang exploit with no collision and such, only make that problem bigger or are other ways survivors can exploit these mechanics. The only thing also relevant to the bodyblocking is that the slugging changes make the obvious counter to it not an option anymore, as after being slugged for 90 seconds total, they won't even need another survivor to get up themselves.

    But the funny thing is, even if survivors don't abuse these mechanics, they will put a lot of killers in disadvantageous situations by themselves: You are playing Trapper, and the Dwight you hooked for the second time has fallen into yet another trap, meters away from you? Well, you can't hook him again, or you will lose your ability to regress gens. Sorry! Just go to the other side of the map to catch another survivor first without being able to slug him for pressure.

    In conclusion, these mechanics are completely overtuned and exploitable on paper, and I hope BHVR really thought them through and there is more to them than what they have explained until now, or it will be a disaster.

    And with this, I don't have anything more to say on the matter.

    in Developer Update | August 2025 Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990369#Comment_3990369

    So, a couple things.

    First, while you're right that the basekit Tenacity would lessen the impact of being made to crawl to a teammate, for sure… I don't personally feel it overcomes the fact that the killer basically just got to chase two survivors for free without giving up much in return.
    In most cases, the protection-hit level of distance survivors can get from someone bodyblocking isn't a huge chase extension. It certainly can be, but it has a higher-than-equal chance of backfiring too, I'm perfectly okay with that risk existing in the game, it allows for very interactive big-swing plays. It's really just the Tenacity that affects this, too.

    I don't even know where to start with the notion of two bodyblockers, though. That's just the survivors throwing to try and bully the killer, no two ways around it.

    For the other effects you mention… I don't really see how any of them are going to help with bodyblocking. After an unhook you literally can't bodyblock (It's not "moving through the killer to get in position", it's… not being able to bodyblock because the killer can walk through you), and even discounting that, the other effects are stealth-oriented and not bodyblock-oriented.
    Losing a bunch of tracking options on a survivor is irrelevant when they're hovering right in front of you trying to stop you from chasing their teammate, y'know? It just doesn't make a difference here, and it's a moot point anyway because in order to bodyblock at all they need to get rid of their extra effects by doing a Conspicuous Action.

    It's only the threat of the anti-tunnel penalty that they'd have to sway your actions, and at that point we return to Slug 'Em All 1989 I Am Machete Man.

    When you talk about the lack of collision setting up flashlight saves and flashbang saves: I agree! This is the big concern I have, and the one thing I think really needs careful attention on the PTB. If there isn't something in place not mentioned in this update to stop this, it'll need very insistent pointing out to BHVR to make sure something happens between PTB and live.
    That is a possible problem and a really potent one too.

    It's just, y'know, the only possible problem I can see, at least with anti-tunnel. Bodyblocking is obviously a non-issue now after an unhook, and survivors trying to throw themselves at you still leaves you with options to handle them. I'm open to there being more problems that become apparent on the PTB, but on paper, I'm not that concerned.

    […] I don't personally feel it overcomes the fact that the killer basically just got to chase two survivors for free without giving up much in return.

    Well, it certainly is your opinion. In reality, every second counts, as you are literally in a time limit (kill them before they finish the gens), and even hitting a survivor is time spent.

    If someone just unhooked bodyblocks you and makes your current chase longer without the possibility of being able to hook him, all this while gens are still rolling, you are not chasing two survivors for free, they are wasting your time for free by making your chase longer and not even having the chance of hooking the blocking survivor. If that downed survivor gets up and interrupts you again, it's more wasted time for free. And even if you decide to not let him waste your time and hook him, he literally took away all your new basekit buffs for unique hooking.

    However you look at it, it's an exploitable mechanic that allows them to put you in a lose / lose situation.

    In most cases, the protection-hit level of distance survivors can get from someone bodyblocking isn't a huge chase extension. It certainly can be […]

    You said it yourself: It can result in a huge chase extension, especially for non-high mobility killers. It is an effective strategy now, even more so when they are able to put you in a position where wasting your time is not even the biggest benefit of doing it.

    […] but it has a higher-than-equal chance of backfiring too

    That was before they were able to…

    • Negate your new and shining basekit buffs that are super useful and totally balanced with the changes implemented to the other side.
    • Give all their friends a match-long repair buff.
    • Prevent you from regressing or blocking any gens for the rest of the match.
    • All of the above.

    If you hooked the blocking survivor. Now? It is pure benefit, starting with the waste of time.

    […] I'm perfectly okay with that risk existing in the game

    I'm not. I don't want exploitable basekit mechanics in the game for any side.

    I don't even know where to start with the notion of two bodyblockers, though. That's just the survivors throwing to try and bully the killer, no two ways around it.

    Except even now they can win doing this with the use of perks. Just imagine what a well-organized SWF will do with all the free stuff. As a side note, I miss the times when bully squads needed to throw a match if they wanted to bully.

    For the other effects you mention… I don't really see how any of them are going to help with bodyblocking. After an unhook you literally can't bodyblock […]

    Get through the killer, use a medkit / botany for one second, and voila! Bodyblocking with free Endurance as conspicuous actions doesn't remove it. Add an anti-hemorrhagic syringe for funsies.

    Losing a bunch of tracking options on a survivor is irrelevant when they're hovering right in front of you trying to stop you from chasing their teammate, y'know?

    But it is super good for chasing the killer unnoticed while reading his aura and reporting that information to your mates in Discord and finding him to chase him to bodyblock, you know? That's what I meant. I never said they were useful for the bodyblocking itself.

    It's only the threat of the anti-tunnel penalty that they'd have to sway your actions, and at that point we return to Slug 'Em All 1989 I Am Machete Man.

    Except it is easier than ever to get up from the dying state, whether alone or with help. And if you don't, after 90 seconds you get Unbreakable for free, which will make it even easier to get up and keep trying to force a hook while wasting your time.

    I think it is not hard to understand.

    Bodyblocking is obviously a non-issue now after an unhook, and survivors trying to throw themselves at you still leaves you with options to handle them.

    No, you don't have any options to handle them, as all the options you have are against you. That's the problem.

    And if you think bodyblocking is such a non-issue, you haven't played against enough bully squads and / or good SWF. That, or you only use high-mobility killers. Good bodyblocking and protection hits can make you lose a match.

    And even if it wasn't, again, this is only one example of the multiple ways survivors can (and will) exploit this new basekit mechanics on paper. We will have to see how things go on the PTB.

    in Developer Update | August 2025 Comment by Batusalen

  • @jesterkind said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3990102#Comment_3990102

    Reading this, personally my first thought is "I'd probably just slug that person".

    I know there's anti-slug in this update, but it's not designed to make that slugging less effective. If the survivor trying to be a nuisance and bodyblock me chasing their teammates is actually capable of doing it effectively (which is a BIG if, a lot of the time you just ignore them), then like… smack 'em.

    They're now immobilised for 90 seconds, or they drag someone off a gen to pick them up. Even the worst case scenario here of them having Unbreakable is not actually bad for you, you're still occupying two survivors at once + forcing them to use up their perk charge.

    I'd certainly agree this attempt would be annoying as hell, but I think it's premature to conclude the killer would be helpless to stop this attempt from happening. You're not exactly going to be left unable to avoid the anti-tunnel penalties here, it's pretty easy on paper to answer this.

    Honestly, it isn't even really that different from now, just with the possibilities of a harsh penalty if you fall for the bait.

    You are not taking into account all the options, just reducing it to one specific scenario. For example, you didn't consider that with the new crawling speed and being in a SWF, he can crawl to his closest friend AND he will still keep recovering. Meaning, his friend can finish whatever percentage the gen has left, catch him midway, and instantly get him up. All this while, technically, one other survivor is undisturbed doing gens. Another thing you didn't think of is that they can have 2 bodyblocker loopers covering up for each other and wasting your time, or that they only need to force him to hook the same survivor twice to already benefit from this strategy (no "unique hook" buffs for the killer).

    In fact, like you said, they already use tactics like this right now with perks like OTR and DS effectively. Just imagine when they have a bunch of free perks and effects on top of it that make it even better (and fun for the killer, of course). Other thing you forgot to take in count is that there are map zones and tiles where is impossible to ignore the bodyblocking survivor without giving the other survivor a lot of distance. And now he can literally go through you to position himself.

    Also, here's an addendum of exploitable things to take into account. This is the list of all the "conspicuous actions" that will deactivate all the new effects survivors get on unhook, including no collision with the killer:

    • Cleansing a Totem
    • Blessing a Totem
    • Healing yourself or other Survivors
    • Opening an Exit Gate
    • Performing an Invocation
    • Repairing a Generator
    • Sabotaging a Hook
    • Unhooking other Survivors

    Notice something missing here? That's right! Using an item is NOT a conspicuous action. Meaning, there is nothing preventing them from flashlighting you, or even better, exploiting the fact that a flashbang dropped inside the killer is unavoidable to do saves while still maintaining all the unhooking effects.

    I really hope they thought about this and change it when they implement the other things, or they basically just made one of the most overpowered bug exploits in the game basekit with added free Iron Will. Nice job.

    EDIT: And now there is this…

    @ThatRyanB said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3989532#Comment_3989532

    Good question! If you've been left in the Dying State for 90 seconds and self pick-up, the 90 second timer doesn't reset. That means that if you're left in the Dying State again, you'll be able to self pick-up again if you fully recover.

    So, if you manage to "immobilise" that survivor 90 seconds one time, then they get Unbreakable for free to keep "just annoying" you the rest of the match. Well thought changes, 10 out of 10. Keep trying to defend it.

    in Developer Update | August 2025 Comment by Batusalen

  • Can someone explain to me how anybody at BHVR looked at this and thought "Good work"? Because at least on paper, I can figure out a dozen ways survivors can abuse all of this already.

    For instance, what prevents SWF from doing this:

    1. Chose an initial "sacrifice" at the start of the match that will dedicate to just bodyblocking the killer and getting protection hits to force the killer to down and hook him. If someone is hooked after the initial sacrifice, it becomes the new sacrifice.
    2. After the first hook, now he is practically invisible and silent and free to follow the killer, even see his aura for free to tell his friends where he is until he has to bodyblock again.
    3. Repeat this process over and over. If the killer dares to last hook him, now he won't be able to even kick the few gens that are left to be done while his friends have bonus repair on top of perks and toolboxes.
    4. Combine this with Endurance perks, DS and Power Struggle to increase the fun factor for the killer.
    5. ???
    6. Profit

    Good job, BHVR. Super healthy, non exploitable or one-sided changes at all. But hey, at least now killers get a little haste and aura reading after hooking, right?…

    in Developer Update | August 2025 Comment by Batusalen

  • Man, who could have imagined that spawning all the survivors in the same spot at the start of the match would cause the first two generators to be done in under a minute?...

    Oh wait, I did! Every single time I've said that the community was wrong to claim it's always best for survivors to work on separate generators, or that survivors being able to shave 37 seconds off a gen by just being two has been the game's core problem for years. Add to that the healing buffs, people actually playing thanks to the "Go Next" prevention and the regression nerfs from the past few years, and voilà, here we are.

    And since we're here, I'll say it again: BHVR need to nerf base gen progression when two survivors are on a gen, especially when they intend to add even more "Anti-Tunneling / Slugging / Camping" mechanics to treat the symptoms produced by min gen times without curing the disease first.

    in Generators are pure madness Comment by Batusalen

  • @angel_pellegrino said:

    With FNAF on the horizon, I think it's important to understand what that brings to the table in regards to DBD's future. It's a chance to grow. But an important part of understanding that reality is knowing that if dbd is a chain, soloq is absolutely the weakest link in the chain. It's without a doubt the weakest position in all of dbd. And is quite frankly a brutal place to be for newer players. And given that so many of the incoming players are going to start off in the misery pit that is baby soloq, it makes sense from a business standpoint to try and make that experience more enjoyable for people so they actually stick around.

    People can shout "get good, noobs!" from the rooftops, but it won't keep new players playing the game if they get curb stomped out of existence each time they play. Yes, I understand in higher mmr this might make it more difficult for players like otzdarva or hens to get a 4k each time they play, as more experienced players might take advantage of whatever changes benefit baby survivors. But at this point, I think it's worth the risk to encourage the growth of a player base. Keeping low mmr a curb stomping hellscape so that a smaller number of people in high mmr feel better about the game is detrimental to the growth of the game. Hence the more recent drive to address issues that have been plaguing survivors for a while now.

    If you have a product, which dead by daylight is most definitely a product, do you want to change the product so that more people buy it, or do you want it to stay the exact same way for the exact same people? I have a positive outlook on the changes I see the devs making. Because they are some of the best choices that can be made regarding the amazing opportunity the fnaf chapter brings to the table.

    You are just using new players and SoloQ as an excuse to justify unbalancing survivor buffs.

    If you really wanted to improve new survivor players experience, you would be asking for things like better in-game documentation (like advanced tutorials on looping and how to play against specific killers), proper MMR brackets so you are not put in the same player pool as the high MMR players the moment you are out of the "baby" one, killer bots in custom matches so you can practice, or even better general perks. Not things that "more experienced players might take advantage of".

    As a side note, there are only 2 things that would really improve SoloQ without being a general survivor buff (viewing teammates loadouts and a quick chat feature), and one of them is already coming.

    in Why improving things for survivors means so much right now Comment by Batusalen

  • @DeBecker said:

    Nobody is forcing anyone to tunnel. And if you fail to hit the unhooker thats 99% your own fault.

    And if you fail to hit the unhooker thats 99% your own fault.

    You are right. If the auto-aim "aim-dressing" the devs force on killers, despite the multiple requests over the years to give us the option to turn it off, decides to hit the survivor who is at a 90 degree angle instead of who you are aiming at, it's totally 99.99999999% the killer's fault.

    in Remove these two incredibly stupid features Comment by Batusalen

  • @JPLongstreet said:

    More effective anti-cheat aside, they've said that it's practically impossible now to add in a match replay system now, that such a thing would have had to been originally coded back in 2016.

    Maybe in a possible DBD 2 someday.

    And that's been proved a lie. The engine has an easily implementable Replay API officially supported since version 4.20, and many other games using Unreal Engine did it way after their release (Fortnite, Rocket League, Tekken 7…).

    I'm not saying they don't have their reasons to not do it, but "having to recode the whole game" is not one of them.

    in Why is the onus on the people being griefed to provide proof of hacking? Comment by Batusalen

  • @crogers271 said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923605#Comment_3923605

    Just remember the forum rule:

    If you're struggling as survivor, it just means you're bad at the game

    If you're struggling as killer, it's evidence that the game design is broken and you're super high MMR

    OP: "Around 1000 hours on Survivor, trash at looping, I lose 15 times in a row regularly. Fix your game so I win 40% of the time, devs!"

    You: "The forum is so Killer biased for saying you are just bad!"

    Another day in the DbD community.

    in 16 game lose spree - Survivor 40% winrate where? Comment by Batusalen

  • @francesinhalover said:

    Alright so info about me : around 1000 hours on survivor, trash at looping. Europe server. (not that my looping skills will get higher any time soon with all the anti loop killers)

    So you'd think id be on low mmr no? Regardless

    I been having several losing spree's on dbd since day one… i usually lose around 10-15 games before a escape and usually that escape is one of my team mates looping the killer for 4 gens.

    You would think the MMR wouldn't be this bad, but my last lose spree they put me vs a p100 nurse that deleted my team in seconds.

    And this also happens to friends i made on dbd, they also lose several games on solo Q but it seems non ever reached 16 like me.

    -

    And i decided to this time around point the killers i faced. I'll keep this updated on my next lose spree. let's reach 50 games and see if my MMR is 40%?

    Legion , nurse , dredge, huntress, sadako, wesker, pig, deathslinger , nurse, singularity , sadako, vecna , unknown, dracula(first game where 2 team mates managed to open gate and escape with me dead), oni , vecna (had a pro survivor in my team loop him untill he dc, does this count has an escape or my lose spree still on???)

    Additional info: barely any tunneling happened. All solo Q games. I never abandoned games.

    So… what's happening here?

    I lose several games and i'm put vs a killer that gets destroyed by one of my team mates? this happened several times. So in few words, i lose games untill the match maker gives me a pro survivor to carry the whole team on his back.

    TL DR

    Fix your match maker and balance this game properly.

    So… what's happening here?

    It's actually quite simple. For the escape rate to average 40%, there have to be people who escape more than 40% in all their games and people who escape less.

    So, it's just that you're in the lower half of the average.

    in 16 game lose spree - Survivor 40% winrate where? Comment by Batusalen

  • @SaltyNooty said:

    https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921071#Comment_3921071

    What does THIS have to do with the abandonment feature? There's nothing one-sided or overpowered about it, it's literally something implemented for both Killers and Survivors to leave a match earlier under specific conditions. And in the case of Killers, this hardly even affects them, considering they still get what they want???

    It had nothing to do with the abandonment feature, but with @Lixadonna arguing that if you main one side, you can't be critical with something that benefits them, apparently.

    But answering your question, I don't know how you can say that it "hardly affects killers" when in all those "specific conditions" it punishes the killer for abandoning even when he has won while allowing the other side to leave a lost match with a draw.

    in Abandon system changes major advantages Comment by Batusalen

  • @Lixadonna said:

    You sound like a Killer Main pretending to be a Survivor. Why would a Survivor complain about this.

    It may surprise you, but there are people that really want to play a challenging and balanced PvP game, not a one-sided power trip.

    in Abandon system changes major advantages Comment by Batusalen
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