AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909293#Comment_3909293
I see your point but I don’t think it impossible to make the perk “buckets” to account for the dual wielding perks, while still allowing build flexibility so people can have fun and experiment. 🧪 Distortion comes to mind off the top of my head on survivor side that’s a dual wielding perk as well. Maybe one of the slots could be made for dual function perks? Then like support? Defense? Information? Idk I’m cooking. It’s just a thought.
Support could work. I'm not fully opposed to the idea of categories, I just personally think it would be easier to cap things like progression and regression speeds.
A cap still allows player agency to pick a build, even one that hyper focuses on one aspect of the game, but limits the impact that kind of specialization can have.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909218#Comment_3909218
they can take the long road, but honestly I wish they would make perk slots dedicated to categories to stop all the heavy anti/haste/prog/aura/info/slowdown/stealth on both sides cook up. It would probably makes things so much easier to balance.
It's a step in the right direction.
And honestly, I think either making things not stack at all, or simply putting a hard cap on modifiers is something they should've started doing years ago.
Removing stacking is the "easy" fix, but could be confusing for newer players if there isn't also some feedback in game to say that certain perks don't work together. Although, if they were to cap speeds they'd have the same problem, admittedly.
The reason I don't like "categories" is there are too many hybrid perks. As an example: are Eruption and call of brine regression or information? They're both… but if you do that, you can just stack them in separate slots again, which kind of defeats the point of trying to prevent stacking categories at all.
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That's not how I read the change. The addon specifically says it makes the invigorate haste slightly faster.
It just means that the "invigorate" haste shouldn't stack with another source of haste, like devour, bloodlust, or batteries included.
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They already said they're adjusting the values to compensate for the perks no longer stacking. I'll also add that they haven't given any numbers out yet, but generally every single perk this affects should be getting a numbers buff because of it.
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It's a good change that's been a long time coming.
Now do progression and slowdown.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908475#Comment_3908475
Interruption. Is. Not. Functionally. Regression. It's much more just your normal, bog-standard "Survivor is not on generator" pressure.
It's not "people do not understand", it's that you aren't understanding, in this case. Chasing someone with a can is lost potential progress, but so is chasing someone off a normal generator. You're trying to overstate the importance of how it means there's a waste of invested time, but then you're immediately factoring out:
- Survivor time on blood gens is much lower, so every second that isn't interrupted is many seconds of gen time.
- Blood gens have lower charges to completion anyway.
- Chasing someone off a gen midway is therefore more interrupting them after they've already been on it for anything up to 30-35s. Gen progress doesn't go back.
- Chasing someone before they get to a gen is like denying them 30s on a gen.
Delivering it in lump sums only partially overlaps with "more work needed", and really decreases the value of time-spent-not-on-gens, so it reduces pressure overall. It doesn't play the role dedicated regression does in extending the minimum time needed, it's playing the role of keeping survivors off generators… which is generally weaker, and also means chasing them off gens is still chasing them off gens..
And this one:
- Survivors are incentivized to move slowly/stealthily and traverse the map, which slows down progress and gives killers the opportunity to prevent gen progress from being deposited.
It also makes it much less likely that anyone's going to be interrupted to deny progress and makes finding people unsurprisingly a lot harder, because you only get to see where the gens are. So it slows down chasing anyone, too, because it's like you have to find the people sneaking around doing dull totems or chests instead of objectives.
Then it gets deposited quickly because everyone realised to bring walking speed perks or just gun it and spend more time filling up anyway, and it goes by even faster. Bit awkward.
Interruption. Is. Not. Functionally. Regression.
So, let me see if I can explain my reasoning better here.
I'm considering this broadly, and at a minimum, the entire mechanic is "killers are rewarded with additional slowdown for chasing the survivors carrying blood cans".
You even agree with this.
So arguing that it's not "strictly regression" is just semantics. I'm using regression loosely to mean (and you get this): "taking effort or progress survivors have put toward their objective and either undoing it completely, or otherwise rendering that effort meaningless".
That's exactly what blood drain is. I even compare it to potential energy, where a nearly identical mechanic of "carrying gen progress to another location" is undone by hitting them. It's just undone in one instant instead of over time. But it still means that the survivors time was wasted.
The entire premise is that going to a blood station, and deliberately trying to be stealthy by moving slowly is serving the exact same role as a progress bar: it's an otherwise time waste. Undoing the effort there is equivalent to removing that progress, which is why I use the term "regression".
Your other points, that you numbered, are irrelevant to that. You're taking about whether it's balanced perfectly, not whether it counts as objective progress. I even mention very explicitly that blood gens are generally too close to the stations in my post. I'm not looking at if this is entirely balanced in it's current form, since it's a limited time mode (intended to not be perfect) and time is the easiest thing for them to tweak if they iterate on this is idea.
it slows down chasing anyone, too, because it's like you have to find the people sneaking around doing dull totems or chests instead of objectives.
This is possibly the worst thing you could've complained about, and I can't take this seriously.
Killers have something like 50+ aura reading perks, abilities, and add-ons now. Not counting things like killer instinct.
This event literally tells you "your slowdown perks don't apply to over half the gens", so maybe instead of running 4 slowdowns you have room for aura reading. Distortion was nerfed specifically and exactly for this reason: survivors aren't invisible if they aren't also being chased.
Complaining about "not being able to find survivors" is beyond laughable. You haven't even stopped to consider solving this problem with the tools you have available to you.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
I'm not really sure why people have an issue with tunneling. They want chases... tunneling means they get chases. If people improved their looping or lose line of sight then it doesn't matter how much the killer tunnels, the killer will lose. Yes the killer might get the tunneled player out but if that results in the killer getting 1 or 2 kills every match it won't make it an appealing tactic and it will make tunneling less common. There are perks to aid the survivor in lasting longer against a tunneling killer, the team needs to use this time to do gens and not spend ages hovering around the killer trying to go for a flashlight save when the killer clearly has light born. Put simply if people can't beat a tunneling killer then it's a skill issue.
Last week I used head on to stun a killer for a challenge, this really annoyed them and they literally chased me all match. By the time they hooked me twice all gens were done by the rest of the team, during egc the team saved me and it was 4 man escape. This is soloq.
They want chases
So you think chasing one person until they die is satisfying this?
What do you think the other 3 players are doing while over person gets chased? Gens! It's always gens.
So one person's experience is: chased, hooked, downed, repeat until dead. You didn't get to recover, you didn't get to do challenges, or anything that might be considered "well rounded gameplay".
In fact, unless you bring a "full array of anti tunnel and chase perks" it's usually blamed on you (on these forums at least) that it's somehow your fault.
If you do bring 4 anti tunnel and chase perks, people complain and usually those perks get nerfed.
Either way, the person tunneled out gets about 5k BP to show for it, and they largely have no choice in the matter. The killer wanted to win, and the first survivor's match got cut short because of it. Literally: good luck next.
For the other 3: better hope you sit on gens and can finish them all before that one person is tunneled out. Your gameplay is staring at a progress bar, and coincidentally, despite any attempts you may make to change that, it's not chases.
If you're lucky, and that's all it is is luck, you might escape about 30-40% of the time. Unlucky? Well, the game is over and your progress bar means nothing, good luck next.
So 3 out of 4 aren't being chased, and even then no one is getting the well rounded gameplay that the game rewards.
This comment is so disingenuous I'm just gonna start responding to it with crap like "killers bring regression perks then complain about the rushing, how can you use your perks if survivors don't do gens?" It's that level of tone deaf.
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There's a lot of good things they've considered, many of them community complaints, and addressed with this system:
The good, or at least, the "we're listening":
- Survivors get an objective that's not just starting at a progress bar, but also isn't just "extra gens". A partial scavenger hunt with stealth encouraged.
- The draining mechanic is just regression by another name, which means killers are "being rewarded for chasing survivors who are working on gens". You don't even have to kick, it just drains naturally.
- Survivors are incentivized to move slowly/stealthily and traverse the map, which slows down progress and gives killers the opportunity to prevent gen progress from being deposited.
- The cans drain slowly instead of some stupid "you lose all progress when you are hit" mechanic (looking at you, potential energy).
- Blood gens prevent any progression, and regression/slowdown from applying.
The bad:
- The perks and abilities are too broadly banned on blood gens. Progression, regression, gen blocking, slowdown, etc are perfectly fine to disallow. Perks like fire up, or even pig hat activation need to be re enabled to function. (Maybe next iteration).
- Killers seem to not understand that chasing survivors and interrupting can progress is regression. People are just defaulting to camping and tunneling, which is the opposite of what this system is trying to encourage. I'm not sure how to make this more clear without just marketing it as "survivors collect gen progress at the station and it regresses when you chase them or they drop it".
- Blood gens and fuel stations need to have minimum distance to spawn from each other, some seem too close. This might be intended to prevent something like 3 genning (where all blood gens spawn on the left side of rpd, all fuel stations on the right, effectively making camping the lobby a new 3 gen scenario), but with 4 blood gens and RNG this situation seems too unlikely. Maybe having stations closer to the regular gens?
- It feels weird that killers are encouraged to kick gens, when the mechanic isn't kicking. Challenges and BP should be awarded for causing blood to drain from cans by any means, which would also help clarify that this is regression too.
The ugly:
- Blood points need to be awarded for depositing into the gen, not just on completion. Rewarding the "last person" to finish the gen is just silly.
- Event offerings should be shared with all 5 players, even if the amount is lowered accordingly.
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@VirtuaTyKing said:
It would be good if it could be addressed in a balanced way.
Like reward killer for not tunneling. Like whats wrong with say 10% off all gens for first hook on new survivor.
Strong killers have less problem tunneling even though they don't need to as much.
Anti tunnel perks being used offensively.
I got blocked at shack from going for someone else off hook by off the record bodyblocking. I then went after them for it and got a DS. I made sure they were dead after that.
So the anti tunnel perks made me tunnel lol
Like reward killer for not tunneling. Like whats wrong with say 10% off all gens for first hook on new survivor
This is literally the blood gens mechanic. If you go after survivors with cans, the chase regresses the blood value they're carrying. It's literally regression.
And people are just camping and tunneling anyway.
There's no buff you can do at this point that will make people stop camping or tunneling in extreme ways, like at the start of the match. The only way is to have some kind of mechanic that stops it.
And the devs can't seem to bring themselves to do anything meaningful about it either, so I have little hope that the future anti camp and anti tunnel will be remotely effective. The current "attempts" have amounted to "stand slightly farther from hook" (AFC) and they couldn't even make DS 5 seconds again (which is the only time killers have even paused tunneling to think about options).
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@WolfePhD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907856#Comment_3907856
What if the generator perks were not coded, because they didn’t have a lot of time, and they wanted to gauge audience feedback before committing to an idea?
After Twins and Trickster, the community has taught the developers, in one way or another, they need to be cautious. We are too reactive. And we assign intent.
It could be that.
But they seem to test ideas that the community throws out in limited time modes also.
The blood fuel, for lack of a better term, gives survivors an alternative to just a gen progress bar and a bit of a scavenger hunt, while also giving killers a way to counter play that progress with chase. Those are so things people have suggested they do in the live game.
As a devil's advocate, if they're actually wanting people to try the new mechanic, why wouldn't they disable other effects? We know for absolutely certain how things would play out if regression affected blood gens: people wouldn't even think to try anything else. Pop, pain res, camp and tunnel.
Even with that option off the table, people are struggling to even consider that "chasing the survivor off the gen" is regression in this mode.
It's just that so many people are hard wired to think that camping and tunneling are the only way they can think of to play the game, they either aren't seeing or even trying it.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
I think this event to see how killers handle with faster gen speeds/nerfed regres perks. Like I been saying for ages and with most events, when a killer loses their perks like in chaos event and now this even they lost regres perks... Killers will tunnel, camp and slug out of necessity
I mean, they also deleted all gen rush perks and items.
This is a huge test for the community to see how well they can adapt to things they've literally asked for.
Three of the biggest requests have been:
- Gen rush perks and items are too much for killers to handle.
- Survivors need an extra objective.
- There's no incentive to not camp and tunnel every game.
And it's a test that at least some people are apparently failing.
Gen rush is deleted from the game. There's exactly one thing that increases gen speed, which requires carrying an item you have to find, move as slowly as possible to carry it, then get it to a specific gen.
So this is only gen rushing if people are just leaving survivors alone to slowly carry the item to a gen. If the killer leaves the hook (doesn't camp or tunnel), then they have not only interrupted the "gen rush" and pressure a survivor from working on a gen, but it also deletes the item charges to chase them.
So for all 3 of these complaints, the devs are realizing that those solutions aren't going to change behavior. They're being lied to by (some of) the community.
People will tunnel and camp even if gen rush perks are nerfed and deleted from the game. People will tunnel and camp even if survivors are given an extra objective or more gens. People will tunnel and camp even if spreading pressure rewards the killer with slower gens.
None of those 3 things are going to change people's behavior.
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You can tell where some people stop reading the notes… since no perks or items can affect the blood gens. That includes toolboxes, BNP, prove, deja Vu, etc.
There's also a secondary objective that slows survivors.
So exactly how are survivors gen rushing, when they're effectively perkless and have no items on these same gens? I know a lot of killers don't understand how map pressure works, but this is where you learn that gens aren't the killers objective. Go chase a survivor off a gen.
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What year is this?
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So, they specifically added the knights iri add-on to be base kit, which blocks the gates if a guard is on you. Active pig hats prevent escapes except by hatch. Slinger's harpoon is arguably anti escape as well, since they can just drag you away. Freddy has a mini blood warden add-on.
Kaneki's current iteration of their power is absolutely not dodgable in the exit gate area. You're a sitting duck with no cover against auto aim. And they can hit through the two posts that exist in some exits currently as well.
But even with all of that, you're seemingly under the assumption that survivors are just teabagging at the exit. (There's certainly times to wait and make sure everyone alive is ok before leaving, without being toxic... that's called healthy sportsmanship and teamwork). You still have to traverse the exit area and escape even if you're just immediately leaving. Why should a close call default to a kill?
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Some of this I have to believe is unintended or buggy mechanics.
I genuinely don't believe that they actually intended the killer to be able to down people during (what should be) the power cooldown or hit through walls, floors, and terrain.
Tho clearly there's an intended auto aim feature, which is probably way too generous right now. Though I don't play console, so I feel like I can't speak to how strong auto aim really should be (could be that a weaker autoaim would be really rough, I personally can't say).
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@ContentCreator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905761#Comment_3905761
I asked if people thought it was worth addressing. Were they intended to be extra Dead Hards in chase? If not, that would be abuse.
Styptic seems intended to counter interrupted heals. Syringe being passive is the draw. Stacking it with abdominal and botany or whatever makes it closer to instant than passive.Well, deep wounds prevents endurance stacking, so I'm not sure why we're taking about "multiple dead hards" per chase. Are you letting survivors mend fully during chase that this is a problem?
Syringe, even with botany and abdominal is about 11.5 seconds. That also takes a perk slot, both add-ons, and consumes the medkit. The fact that the medkit is consumed also shows the killer that this is being used.
So far, the only problem you're identifying is "survivor thing does something, please nerf".
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905759#Comment_3905759
It doesn't? Like plagues sickness? I've never noticed, but that is definitely something that should be fixed. Countering exhaustion is one thing, he already counters hold W like plague counters medkits so I don't mind but if survivors aren't getting a boost after a munch that'd be a huge problem. Is this consistent?
I don't think it's consistent, no. Nor do I think it's intended honestly. It's a bit hard to tell since there seems to be a lot wrong/bugged with the killer currently.
But if survivors aren't getting the speed boost, and the killer can traverse a huge portion of the map insanely quickly those two things together are immensely strong, to put it mildly. It feels more like unintended game play than a design decision, but it's hard to say until they acknowledge it one way or the other.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
What's wrong with being munched on? Just because something plays different doesn't automatically make it horrible. The animation lock is worse for the Kaneki anyways.
Currently the killer stops the survivor dead in their tracks, interrupting any exhaustion perk they might be using, and isn't giving any "on hit" speed boost like any other attack.
The killer can also bypass the recovery cooldown apparently.
So those bugs combined means you can gain zero distance and are stunned while the killer is able to two tap you from healthy nearly instantly.
I don't necessarily think this is as much a design problem, as not working as intended (to be as fair as possible). But the bugs are absolutely an issue that needs to be fixed.
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Having a brand new killer who is bugged for hitting through objects, through floors, and can skip the recovery cooldown is insanely problematic. There is no counter play until they fix that.
That doesn't justify leaving the game, but the "go next" epidemic is a huge indicator of game health. Game health already wasn't in a good state, and having a buggy mess of a killer added isn't helping things at all.
I'm curious what you think are "recent quality of life changes" that should be making gameplay better? Are "universal charms" supposed to make up for being tunneled out or slugged for 4 minutes somehow?
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This character appears to give the killer complete control over chase, regardless of skill level of the player.
If there's one thing we should've learned from the 3 gen meta is that balance shouldn't give "new" or even "average" players complete control over the game.
There's nothing wrong with mastering a killer and performing well with them, but this is the first week... no one's mastered anything at this point. This is a skill floor that's so low anyone with a pulse can pull it off.
Maybe this is due to bugs with the kit not working correctly, or hitboxes, but this definitely feels like the killer is overtuned.
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@MarbleThrone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905010#Comment_3905010
Slight correction, Teamwork: Power of Two got a buff in patch 8.3.0 that removed the part where it deactivates upon losing a health state, among other things.
I missed that change then.
I still don't think you're going to find enough value in deep wounds to have this be a concerning combo to worry about.
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These are two insanely wrong sentences.
MfT only works in deep wounds, and is 3% move speed. Power of two requires the survivors to heal each other, is lost when they lose a health state, and is 5%.
So not only can you only have one of these active at a time (this isn't a combo), and neither perk is active "at the start of the game", but even if you could stack them it would be 8% haste for a move speed of 108%. The slowest (non nurse) killer in the game is 110%.
Any survivors running these together are either oblivious to game mechanics or memeing.
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@LockerLurk said:
It's real simple Wolfy… we want the game to be fair for every Killer.
Every map is fair for all Survivors because Survivors are just the same gameplay with different skins. It's fair no matter what map they're on. But it's 100% not fair to expect a Trapper to have to play on a large map that Billy doesn't have an issue with, just as it's not fair to expect Huntress to perform well in an indoor map.Survivors do not get screwed over like this on maps unless they are small or have few resources, something that's altogether not that common actually - I can count maybe three bad Survivor realms. Killers often do get screwed though, handed an instant loss situation in some cases, based on what map they get - I can count many realms bad for Killers depending on the Killer, for example if I'm Ghostface I know I'm gonna suffer if the map is bright (Eyrie, Cowshed) or large (Ormond Resort, Red Forest) or both. If I'm Dredge I know the map could be a problem if there's few lockers or a bad locker spread (Ormond, Hawkins). If I'm Pinhead I know aiming my chains is harder in indoor maps (RCPD, Treatment Theatre). And then there's also a handful of maps that all Killers struggle on unless they are mobility or high A to S tier, like Garden of Joy.
The truth is, playing as Killer, you are far more impacted by a bad map than when playing as Survivor, where you are more likely to be in a group and have people who can back you up. Big maps favor Survivors, more places to hide and run to with more places to create hard to pressure zones the Killer may struggle to handle. Bigger maps promote behaviors that the Devs have been trying to get rid of - hiding for a long time, creating deadzones, causing generator clusters the Killer has no choice but to cycle between until the kick limit is reached, etc. It's just not fun for anyone when the maps are too big, and it just clearly biases the game in the Survivor side's favor, which impacts kill rates, which the Devs are trying to fix for ALL Killers instead of simply hard nerfing or buffing across the board.
And that's why the maps cannot and should not be bigger again. Because it's just not a fair playing field for everyone, and disadvantages some players more just because they picked a certain character and their luck was crappy or someone offered the right map.While I don't think that maps need to be bigger (with maybe two exceptions), this is a pretty narrow view.
Survivors do not get screwed over like this on maps unless they are small or have few resources,
This is simply incorrect. While having fewer resources is certainly a factor that isn't necessarily dependent on map size, smaller maps can absolutely impact survivor play.
Midwich is the smallest map in the game, and has historically always been the "most lethal" map when they post stats. Haddonfield is literally a shoebox with basically no resources.
While it is easier to find survivors on some smaller maps, survivor resources are also designed to be consumable. Once those resources are used up, the playable area gets smaller. This is mainly for pallets and gens, but large maps can also create large dead zones.
There are actually two maps that are tied for "largest map in the game", at least by area. Mother's dwelling gets complained about because of size, but the other is sheltered woods. People don't complain about shelter because it has maybe 4 loops, shack, main building, and a whole lot of dead zones.
The truth is, playing as Killer, you are far more impacted by a bad map than when playing as Survivor
Possibly, but here's the problem: take survivors completely out of the equation.
The perfect map for huntress or nurse is open. Their counter is line of sight. So ideally they spawn into an open field with no obstructions and are perfectly happy.
The perfect map for, say, ghostface or Myers is the exact opposite: they need an approach that actively blocks line of sight so they can stealth in and stalk.
So right away, the perfect map for huntress is possibly the worst map for ghostie, and the perfect map for ghostie is maybe the worst map for huntress.
Bigger maps promote behaviors that the Devs have been trying to get rid of - hiding for a long time, creating deadzones, causing generator clusters the Killer has no choice but to cycle between until the kick limit is reached, etc
This is an incredibly skewed view.
A) they're actively fixing the "hide for a long time" problem. That's a non issue.
B) dead zones are supposed to be from using up resources, and that's by design. I'm not sure how you think this is a detriment for the killer, since pallets are single use, losing them means easier chases in that area, and killers literally have no consumable resources now that hooks respawn.
Unfortunately, you have maps like haddonfield which are tiny, somehow have almost nothing to work with for resources by default, that are simply awful.
C) generators don't always to end up in a cluster, it's part of the survivor macro game to try and avoid that, although things like rpd lobby spawning 2 gens can sometimes make that impossible to avoid.
Gens are supposed to be completed. I feel like I should say that again. It limits the play field and makes every maps playable area smaller, patrol area goes down. The only reason people include this reason with regard to maps is that big maps will generally get a gen done eventually, and modern killers seem to have this mind set that gens are their objective: if the game doesn't end with 5 gens standing, the killer somehow "lost" and survivors need nerfed further.
In fact, you thinking that kicking gens until the limit is reached is a natural result of gens being completed, basically reinforces that you probably think this way, and any gens being done is not just a bad thing, it's some kind of imbalance to be corrected by the devs. It's not. Killers can still win with a full 4k after gates are powered. Survivors cannot escape together without doing all of the gens.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
This is a joke, right?
Like the only reason they changed the perk was so that Slugging builds would get shot, I feel like that was incredibly obvious, but 5% hindered for 5 seconds does virtually nothing lol
It needed a change because of the excessive use to just bleed people out.
And if I had to guess, this rework is designed to combat the "pre drop and hold w" play style that killers constantly complain about. (Which, as an aside, is literally "how comp DbD is played at the highest level of survivor", so I always found this to be an interesting complaint anyway).
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The last time they capped something like this was vaulting speed because it was stacking to a point where it literally broke the animations.
Given that pickups are already a killer/survivor interaction, this could just be a desync issue where the survivor isn't transitioning to the "carried state" correctly or something like that.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904250#Comment_3904250
And I said that they should consider doing that because the experience of playing against it is currently horrible.
What am I supposed to do to avoid getting injured? I can stun a legion. I can block a plagues vomit with pathing and environment. On top of this, these two killers have to chase you down with m1 as a trade of for the free injure.
Im sorry, but how can you defend this?
Im sorry, but how can you defend this?
Currently "bias" appears to be how people are defending this.
If killers could be blinded through walls, obstacles, and ceilings, people would be burning the forums down to get the obvious bug fixed.
No one with an ounce of integrity would say that's a skill issue, or even that it's clearly intended. But the "non functional, broken thing" benefits them in this case, so it gets blindly defended.
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Do I think he needs a nerf? I'm not sure if it's bugs or feature in some cases at this point.
But it certainly feels like the skill floor is off here on both sides. Everyone is brand new to this killer, the killer and survivor players are all seeing this for the first time.
So if this killer has a playable skill floor that's low, meaning that a player brand new can pick them up and be effective almost immediately, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
But if the skill floor to oppose that is vastly higher, that can be a problem. Survivors complaining about getting hit around corners and through walls sounds like a bug tbh, and that should be fixed.
But bugs aside, if the skill floors are drastically off for either side, something should probably change.
We had the opposite problem for singularity: too hard on ptb for killers to pick up and have a handle on the kit, and too easy for survivors to counter. And they balanced it by nerfing emp's and making the killer a bit easier to play.
It sounds like we're in a similar position, but reversed: easy to play, yet some of the counter play is bugged, or possibly overturned if truly working as intended.
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@Zenislev said:
With the new surrender option, survivors can just leave rather than watch your mori, meanwhile when survivors win, you either wait out the timer or go to the exit gate to be teabagged. What's up with that? Can the killer have the option to leave once all gens are done? It would only be fair wouldn't it?
Can the killer have the option to leave once all gens are done?
I believe you'll find that the killer can, in fact end the game once gens are done. You can open the exit gates any time the gates are powered.
You can also injure, down, kill, Mori, etc survivors at the gates. If you can force an error, you might even get an extra kill or two.
And the reason survivors are getting surrender is because some killers have decided to abuse the fact that survivors can't do literally anything while downed.
Maybe it's just a lack of empathy in this community, but I'm kinda tired of hearing of killers complaining about end game where they have agency, can force the behavior to stop with base kit tools, and at worst it's two minutes. Yet this is constantly compared to slugging to bleed out, where survivors have no base kit tools, have no agency, can't speed up the process in any way, and have to wait the full 4 minutes of being humped if the killer decides to do so.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903321#Comment_3903321
Very good insight. Thank you for your perspective on this.
I might not have gotten all the details in my initial post, especially about the calculation and its variables, but more a rough estimate, at least when it comes to a maximum.
I also forgot to add that there is a smurf-prevention system in place, where you would be pushed into the next tier within a few matches if you had too of an easy time.Regarding back-filling of lobbies, I too have a strong belief that this is where most of the issues with imbalanced matchmaking stem from, and that this system in particular needs to be looked at, more specifically having the back-filling algorithm searching for players around the average MMR of the lobby.
I am with you on the tin foil hat thing, that maybe it is intentionally pairing a weaker player and a stronger player together with two more average players. It could also be a result of a duo-SWF.Good point, i did forget about the anti Smurf thing.
Back fill and dodges could definitely be made better, though I feel like the "best" solution is to either rework the lobby entirely or just get rid of it altogether. I'm not sure if the devs agree with either of those approaches (or have the time/resources to prioritize either one).
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903095#Comment_3903095
Killers haven't gotten a single good killer perk in such a long time and even when we do they are nerfed allmost instantly. Seriously, the last actually good killer perk was Weave Attunement and that was 9 months ago. How long did it take for that to get nerfed? A couple of weeks or less? Meanwhile Shoulder the Burden has been out for what, 6+ months and still has not been nerfed despite even some survivor mains saying its bad for the game? There is a clear difference between how the devs treat killer players and how they treat survivor players and not only is it not fair but it is kind of sickening how so many people just turn a blind eye to it.
Yikes.
They're constantly updating things for killers, entire kits, maps, even perks.
The most recent perk update was thrill back in November, where it went from "meh", to giga broken, then they tuned it back to "really good".
The only change to weave attunement was a minor change to the radius and survivors see the item aura. It's still effectively 4 perks in one, and, for the record, it took them 5 months to even make that one minor change.
Shoulder the burden, on the other hand, didn't make it out of the ptb before being nerfed. They doubled the exposed timer, because entity forbid that the killer doesn't get a free instadown when the survivor uses the perk they brought.
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So there's a lot that's incorrect about this, mostly with how MMR is assumed to be calculated and used. Since you separate your post into sections, I'll try to mirror that format, though there's some overlap where things are intertwined.
MMR promotes speed over quality.
Not incorrect, but I'll comment on this. The devs introduced the current MMR system as a replacement for ranks in September 2021.
Not too long after they implemented this, they got feedback that people didn't care for it and they decided to try and tune the system better for the community. I want to say these tests occurred within the first year of the system being out (I don't remember at this point).
But the tests ran for about a week or two, and were single-blind: meaning the devs changed something, didn't tell the players what they changed, and then asked for feedback every day to gauge how those changes felt for players, even though the community didn't have the slightest clue what they changed.
At the end of those tests, the devs released their data and had dialed in some numbers to tweak things. They played with the spread of MMR, how long it took to start expanding the search (lower quality games, but faster queue times, and vice versa) among other things. The end result was what players said "felt best of those tests at the time" and the devs were more or less happy with the queue times (so, they found a semblance of balance).
One of the tests, once they revealed the results, was going back to the old system of "ranks", and people hated it. It was one of the least popular tests they ran, and keep in mind people didn't realize they were in that system... They just went by how well they felt matches were balanced for that particular test.
So yes, the system promotes speed over quality to a degree. It initially tries to find a "good match", then steadily expands the search radius for less accurate matchmaking as time goes on. Ideally, it finds a match before things get too far out of balance, but things like back fills, lobby dodging, etc, can effectively turn off matchmaking entirely to fill out an already started lobby, so people aren't waiting (since the game doesn't even create a "lobby" until it thinks there's a valid match anyway).
How MMR is calculated.
So, starting (or "new player") values: I will say, though, that players have an MMR for each killer, and if you play a brand new killer it will start you at "roughly your killer MMR, but slightly lower" at first.
The idea being that you should have a general killer MMR, which covers the fundamentals, but you'll probably have to adjust to a new kit on a brand new killer. So you don't start over completely every new chapter release, for example.
The big issue is with the MMR gain and loss. The maximum gain or loss is +/-20 and roughly +5 for a kill, and -5 for an escape on the killer end. But this assumes that every player in that match is exactly the same MMR... something that basically never actually happens in reality
However, in any functional MMR system there's a weighting on MMR gains and losses to keep the system in check. So, if you have a 12k hour blight player at, say 2100 MMR, and they somehow get matched against a brand new team of MMR 650 survivors, the system should never give full +20 to the blight for a 4k and -20 to the survivors. We already know the outcome just by the numbers, the blight is going to win by a landslide. And the MMR system should also know that this is the expected outcome, and not adjust MMR hardly at all for this mismatch.
So, generally speaking, the system will calculate the average MMR for each team (in DbD the killer "team" is pretty straightforward) and match based on that. And if there happens to be an exact match, then you get the +/-20 values you tossed out.
But the norm is going to be that matches have one team with higher MMR than the other. So if the underdog team loses, that's the expected outcome, and if they win it's the unexpected upset. The underdog team should lose less MMR and the higher MMR team earn less MMR when that match plays out as expected. And it should be based on how mismatched the teams are: so similar teams are close to +/-20, but our extreme example of blight vs newbies should be almost no change in MMR at all on either team.
That's how nearly every MMR system in existence works, and I surely hope that's how this one does. Because if its simply a flat +/-20 regardless of the matchup, then just the fact that the game is set up for a 60% kill rate means that (if they play long enough) every survivor has minimum MMR and every killer has maximum MMR.
MMR brackets.
These don't exist, at least not in a meaningful way. The system doesn't care where you are in the MMR system, with only one exception (and I'll get to that).
The way the system tries to match you, is it takes your MMR and looks for a suitable game at that number. If it can't find 4 other people at your MMR within a certain time (like a minute or two) it expands to looking within +/-100 (or so) of your MMR and keeps going. It expands the search range until you find a game, so shorter queues should also mean, roughly, that you have a generally accurate game also.
But that process doesn't care if you're "on the edge of a bracket", and works exactly the same way if you're 500, 1200, or 2100 MMR.
The only exception for this is the soft cap, which I'm going to keep saying is 2100, but that might not be exact (and the real value is kind of irrelevant). Since you could keep winning, theoretically forever, at huge extremes of skill (pros) players would take an extremely long time to find a match. The soft cap is just a limit where, your actual MMR can be above that number (say 2400), but the system will look for matches as though you're 2100 instead.
But: since there are diminishing returns on MMR gains (or should be), then at this extreme level that player is gaining almost nothing for stomping players will below their MMR (see above) and similarly, if and when they lose they'll lose a ton as well (because the underdog won).
So it becomes difficult to maintain that high MMR unless you are genuinely one of the best in the game. It's also possible, and this is much more common, that people can win an awful lot, and struggle in matches, and still aren't "Max MMR".
Final words
Not responding to yours, per se, just sorting out my final thoughts.
Maybe a community manager or Dev can confirm some of this, because I think a lot of what I cover is public knowledge (although the exact numbers I think are intentionally hidden).
I'll also say that I don't think MMR is perfect by any means.
Back fill and lobby dodging basically turn off all matchmaking and prioritize finding anyone with a pulse, and match quality goes out the window.
I'm almost entirely certain that, even if the system had a perfect, infinite supply of every MMR player that the game would match a 1000 MMR killer with two 1000 MMR survivors, a 1200 survivor, and an 800 survivor. I think the matchmaker intentionally makes a weak link on the team (this is a bit tin foil hat, admittedly).
Most importantly, most players are not "Max MMR", or even at the soft cap. Just because you win 40 games in a row, doesn't (or shouldn't) boost your MMR by 800. You'll eventually hit diminishing returns farming the "easy" games, and lose/struggle against opponents who are better than you. Playing a lot will mean you hit an MMR that is your skill level, and that is most likely not at or above cap. That's also ok.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3902922#Comment_3902922
So, there's zero incentive whatsoever to get a tape with this.
Not really. You take tapes for turning TVs off or for removing condemned. I don’t want nor do I like the concept of forcing survivors to shut down my TVs, basically removing my whole power at all times like it is right now, especially with no counterplay on sadako’s end. I want to be able to use her TVs to sneak up on survivors like in the past and have a good map presence, which the current concept makes impossible.
Holding a tape gets you condemn stacks, you get fully interrupted and can't get rid of the tape of the Onryo follows you to a tv, and getting hooked with the tape gives everyone condemn stacks.
Maybe I should have clarified, but if she follows you while you are holding a tape you won’t gain condemned. I reintroduced this mechanic back from her first version, where the passive condemned timer was paused if you were in chase or if she was in a 16 meter radius to your location.
Grabbing a tape doesn't turn off TV's
It does. Can you tell me why you thought so? Then I can edit it to avoid more misunderstanding.
I don’t want her condemned to be super oppressive nor do I want it to be ONLY slowdown. A middle ground between not hindering her other abilities and being good. Saying it is supposed to only be slowdown ignores how it was in the past. In her first you could use her map presence very well and condemned (if you played well), in her second version you could only use her condemned (because all TVs were shut down just like in her current version). However in her current version her condemned is trash as well as her map presence.
That's not the point of her ability.
Currently not, but it once was. That can change if behavior decides to.
I’m trying to make her more even across skill levels and simpler to understand. Currently only people who don’t understand her die to condemned, because it is highly abusable against them and in high levels it is extremely useless, because survivors can hard counter her in every aspect.
Not really. You take tapes for turning TVs off or for removing condemned.
So when I say that there's no reason to take tapes, I'm referring to the version of Sadako that worked like this before (I honestly forget if this was the first or second version of Onryo at this point tbh). The primary complaint from killers was that survivors had no reason to interact with the TV's and condemn was basically a complete non-issue. We already tried this version, killers hated it because survivors could just ignore the TV's entirely, and they changed it.
Maybe I should have clarified, but if she follows you while you are holding a tape you won’t gain condemned.
So I think I described it incorrectly. When I said that "you get fully interrupted and can't get rid of the tape of the Onryo follows you to a tv" I was referring to your increased TV interaction speed (Increase the tape insertion, grabbing and the speed for turning off TVs to 1,5-2s (was 0,5s/1s)). At that point, an Onryo with something like STBFL can potentially attack, recover, and attack again before the survivor can finish inserting into a TV.
At 7 or 8 tokens, the blade wipe is less than 2 seconds. And account for lag means that the surivor will not be able to finish inserting the tape before they are not only hit twice, but still hold the tape. Especially with your "hooking a survivor holding a tape gives everyone stacks" and "locks in all condemn progress" changes, the new meta is to just follow anyone with a tape and use STBFL. There's really nothing the survivors can do, except body block as the obsession (and anti-body blocking is on the way).
It does. Can you tell me why you thought so?
I misread your "projecting doesn't turn off the TV" statement when typing this. That's my mistake.
Currently only people who don’t understand her die to condemned, because it is highly abusable against them and in high levels it is extremely useless, because survivors can hard counter her in every aspect.
Condemned is far too strong of a base kit ability to make it anything that can be very consistent, or even the primary, way to kill survivors. You aren't really making the character "easier to understand", you're simply removing any aspects of the kit that survivors have any influence on.
In particular, making the team suffer because of those "survivors who struggle to understand her" is one giant flaw here. I don't want to be punished simply because my RNG solo queue teammate didn't get the memo. I shouldn't get condemned for something that I have no control over, can't communicate with or to this teammate, can't use perks or items to mitigate. This just feels like a "win more" mechanic for the killer whenever there is a weak link on the team.
As an example, you talk about removing the fact that TV's disable on projection. So, they tried something similar to this before (not exactly, but close) and they had to add a cooldown on her power for it to even be considered. That was loudly decried as a terrible move. But you don't even include a cooldown, so we're going back to teleportako. Killers will just teleport incessantly (probably between two different TV's) and stack condemned, especially with the increased radius you mentioned. And since the teleport animation cancels survivor interaction, it's almost impossible to get to a TV and shut it off before the killer can teleport to it and hit you. On smaller maps, or two story maps, this is nearly impossible to avoid, and has no downside or side effect for the killer to do this until someone eventually hits max condemn stacks.
The TV's and projection CD are supposed to be a renewable resource for the killer to decide to use, but this just makes it an infinite, spammable ability for Onryo players who can't (or won't) manage their kit's resources properly.
The unfortunate reality here is that these changes will just mean survivors don't have to interact with the TV's at all, and literally the only play will be to gen rush this killer before condemned can be permanently locked in on someone. The only way I see people having to interact with the TV's is an Onryo spamming teleport to force condemned, and pushing for a one-shot down in half of one chase. That sounds like the most boring gameplay I can imagine, for everyone involved.
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So, there's zero incentive whatsoever to get a tape with this.
Holding a tape gets you condemn stacks, you get fully interrupted and can't get rid of the tape of the Onryo follows you to a tv, and getting hooked with the tape gives everyone condemn stacks.
Grabbing a tape doesn't turn off TV's, so what's the point of going for one ever? You're back to the previous iteration (I forget which exactly tbh) but basically survivors ignored tapes and TV's and it was like the power didn't exist at all.
This also feels a bit like your expecting condemn to be the primary way this killer eliminates survivors, and that's not how it's supposed to work. It's supposed to be passive pressure, a bit of slowdown, and you want it so be something the survivors have a reason to do. It should be rare that condemn gets you a kill, similar to pig hats, but people seem to think this should be both unavoidable, effectively uncounterable, and her primary mode of eliminating survivors. That's not the point of her ability.
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Escape with it, you don't need to avoid hits completely you can go back and pick it up. As long as you have it on you when you go out the exit/hatch.
You could force a grab with a locker, gen, or maybe slow vault once you know they have franklins and you know you're going down anyway.
If it's an m2 killer, you only lose the item on m1, so you would keep it if you get downed on, say a nurse blink.
The only other way would be to drop it somewhere and have a SWF friend pick it up for you if you can't do one of the other options.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3902226#Comment_3902226
Ideally they'd fix everything first, sure. But there are some issues here:
- What needs to be "fixed" (and why people are going next) varies depending on who you ask
- These fixes aren't going to happen overnight, no matter what BHVR chooses to do
- People going next all the time is actively ruining people's games, and for some is worse than slugging/camping
- Some people will find reasons to go next, regardless of the state of the game
Sometimes you have to triage and stop the bleeding before you do the complex surgery.
I've always said that yes, there are petty people. But people aren't becoming more petty over time, especially not in the numbers people are claiming to see (i.e. "go next epidemic"). It's a symptom of the games health, and the devs' deliberate balance decisions have actively made the problem worse over time.
It will depend on what and how they implement some kind of "anti go next" as they've claimed. I'm waiting for the details myself, but I honestly don't know what they have planned.
Even just looking at it in a vacuum (as OP is doing) and just removing hook attempts entirely, it doesn't solve anything. People will follow the killer around, point at a hook, deliberately miss every skill check on a gen, make vault notifications to annoy the killer into getting them out of the game.
I just don't see that as a feasible option without either leaving loopholes (like I described above) or being so specific that your going to have an insane number of false positives. Am I missing skill checks because I'm new, throwing, or because tombstone Myers will instantly kill me if I do anything else?
I think my biggest problem is that most of these discussions are people with what I can only describe as a "punish survivors" mentality. People basically expecting that giving up should result in a hardware ban, send all of their BP, iri shards, and aurics to the killer as an apology, and have the IRS audit them just to drive the message home. At least if it's a survivor... Since I've seen those same people say that if the killer decides a game is lost they should be able to surrender after 2 minutes with no other penalty. The discrepancies can be sometimes so biased it's offensive with some people.
If they're already looking to address (hopefully in a meaningful way) some of the reasons people are going next, (such as being found first means you don't get to play the game) then I expect that will help alleviate the problem a decent amount. There's no magic pill that will fully solve the problem, including the "punish them all" solutions.
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I doubt it'll have too much if an impact, since survivors can just take the time to disable the drone if the killer isn't in the area to defend it.
And while this feels a bit like an "Artist Crow" that could be used to force a hit in chase in the right situation, I fully expect the majority of people will just continue planting drones on gens and trying to snipe survivors while repairing.
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They're approaching with this issue backwards imo. Treating the effect, and not the root cause isn't going to change anything.
The best hope is to address why people give up on hook, at least some of the reason. The biggest being that the meta is not allowing survivors to actually play the game.
Hopefully, the anti camp, anti tunnel, and anti slug they've announced will do something, anything meaningful to address those issues, and the problem should lessen.
But they're implementing this in phase 2, while "anti go next" is phase 1. So I guess we'll see.
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They very rarely put this kind of thing in the patch notes, but changing tile spawns, replicating tires to other maps (usually the weaker tiles), tile chain prevention, pallet and tile RNG weighting, and so on are things they are regularly changing.
This is also why I make it a point to include this any time game balance is being discussed, since "weakening the strength of maps, tiles, and pallets" has been an ongoing effort (by demand) and usually only the full map reworks ever make it into patch notes.
Just one of the many ways they've been pushing kill rates higher over the past few years at this point.
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This is why limited time game modes either need to be rare, or iterated on when they come out again. Eventually a meta forms and the mode becomes stale.
For chaos shuffle, you're seeing a much faster meta evolution, but it's the same thing that happens in the main game: killers realized very quickly that camping and tunneling perks are gone, so they can use those tactics excessively and there's effectively nothing survivors can do about it.
Because there's also no catch up mechanic for survivors, the only way to even have a chance to win is to finish gens before someone gets tunneled out.
It's literally the same thing in the main game, only that things like DS or OTR make the tunneling process barely longer by introducing a single speed bump.
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Well, you're playing solo q. And I'll assume the best from you and assume that you are avoiding all of those pitfalls yourself.
My personal complaint with survivor is that the game has been pushed out of being a casual, or even "party game" feel toward being only competitive.
I used to play with a full 4 player SWF. Not some sweaty, bully, gen rush squad... We played and screwed around on discord on a Friday night hanging out and drinking. One player really loved playing "Santa Claude" and would open every chest in the map to gift presents out. Another was a totem fiend and would cleanse or bless anything that glows on the map. Literally the kind of team that killers claim to want in every match.
All of us have basically been driven away from the game by the changes since 6.1 over time. At this point, I barely touch survivor and only play killer occasionally by myself.
So what's interesting to me about your post, then, is that you're basically criticizing not playing hyper competitively. Do people really want gen rush squad every match? Or maybe the criticism should be that the game shouldn't be balanced in a way that "gen rush, pre drop, run to comp corner" is literally the only way to even have a chance at winning. Or hell, even just fun.
I can only speak for myself, but personally I don't really care that much if I win or lose as long as the gameplay is fun or enjoyable. In fact, some of my most memorable (positive) moments in dbd are games where I lost.
But that's not the focus anymore, the gameplay itself has become not fun for me (or my friends group), to the point that even winning isn't enough to offset that the gameplay path to win sucks. (At least in that feeling, I'm certain I'm not alone).
So for me, if I go into a game expecting fun, casual gameplay, and get steamrolled by the sweatiest opponent I've ever seen, and then get told it's my fault because I didn't run these exact 4 perks with a toolbox with these add-ons... That's a game balance issue. Blaming my teammates isn't going to fix that, even when they aren't perfect.
And since we're taking about solo queue, I can bring all of those things, including the competitive mindset and drive, and still have a problem because my teammate was playing around weave attunement and didn't bring a toolbox.
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Lethal pursuer
Sprint burst
At least when used properly.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901685#Comment_3901685
Ye still makes no sense. The excessive hiding being an issue which is reportable being addressed by having killer surrender. It gives more incentive to hide and not do objective which is the opposite of what the Devs want. Luckily it's just first part tho, there will be an anti hiding coming in so that should help with the excessive hiding. Makes surrender redundant when they bring in anti hiding.
Yeah it feels weird a bit, but I think giving the killer a way out is healthy. And the fact that it's an optional choice is good here too.
Just hiding doesn't guarantee a free escape, they could still be found by a diligent killer or when the game times out as an extreme example.
I'm curious how "anti hiding" is going to look though. Almost all of the suggestions for this I've ever seen from the community for this have been extreme, to put it mildly.
Like camping, tunneling, and slugging, hiding and stealth are perfectly fine situationally. It's when it becomes excessive is when they're a problem. For hiding: of course you're going to hide if the killer comes by to kick your gen, or when planning to go for a save.
The big one everyone seems to ignore is slugging for the 4k: if you're the last survivor standing you have at least 4 minutes for the 3rd to bleed out, a minute (or so) to search for hatch, and then possibly two minutes of EGC. That's legitimate hiding/stealth, almost entirely in the killers control (except RNG of hatch spawn), where being found is throwing away your only chance left. It's also roughly 7 minutes or more. So I'm curious how their system will decide what is or isn't "excessive hiding" if they aren't also reworking hatch.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901664#Comment_3901664
To be fair the surrender option for killer makes no sense. Surrender is supposed to be for an unwinnable match. Like if all survivors are slugged. Surrender option for killer is if survivors hide for 10min lol. Why surrender when the killer can wait it out longer and get the win by server end time?
The actual answer is that killers have complained about excessive hiding when it's down to two or so survivors, so the devs have listened to that and put in an option. You don't have to use the surrender option, btw.
Although my personal opinion is that the game shouldn't award escape or kill if the server times out. The game should just fade to black and give out whatever BP was earned up to that point. Survivors clearly didn't escape, but the killer also didn't sacrifice the survivors either. It makes no sense to me that the killer is awarded free kills in that situation, when the entity literally does the killing for them at that point. This is also why killers were incentivized to hold games hostage during the 3 gen meta.
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@UknownShredder said:
I dont know what surrender means to you guys. But when people surrender in war they lay down their weapons and ask for permission to live and that is what they get. not a bunch of (money) blood points they accumulated throughout the game. If surrendering blood points should be 0 for entire team. Killer should get full blood points.
Or perhaps we should add a surrender button for killers to so we can surrender as soon we know its an SWF ?If you read the post about it whatsoever, there are situations where the killer can surrender.
Also, not sure what the ######### this is:
when people surrender in war
This is a video game. Holy crap.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901432#Comment_3901432
Skill check chance while using Toolboxes increased to 5x. instead of 2x - this is a buff, most players dont have any issues hitting good skill checks and with hyper focus its even better (patch 4.7.0).
Overall repair speed for gens is faster, because of all the perks survivors got to boost it, i dont have to post proof of that, im not your dad, look up the perks your self.
Pain Res AND Pop (just to pick a few examples) were nerfed as late as patch 8.0.0.
Who is lying now?
Hyperfocus has been a panic perk for killers since before it came out. It has a 2.11% usage rate, less than Alert. This is a gigantic stretch and doesn't even come close to the extra 25% that the BNP nerf took away in a perfect case scenario.
Which perk? Deja Vu for an extra maybe 2 seconds off of one of 3 specific gens? Terrifying.
(Edit: since it's gonna be one of those conversations, deja vu saves 5.1 seconds. For comparison, a killers base kit dry kick costs 4.5s, and even 3 seconds of base regression is enough to overcome the devs vu speed. Killers are hardly helpless is my point, but I'll leave the sarcastic 2s comment as is)
I didn't say they hadn't been nerfed or changed, but they're still highly impactful and the most popular killer perks. In fact, killers insist that they're "necessary" to play the game. That doesn't sound like "nerfed into oblivion" to me, that's a perk that makes a difference.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901302#Comment_3901302
Toolboxes got buffed
Overall repair speed for gens is faster
All gen regression is nerfed into the ground
Auto Heaven, Eyeire of Crows, Ormond and Gideon are all very survivor sided maps.
No playing killer are not easier now than ever, im not sure who told you that?? - did you hear that from a streamer??
There was a time where moris didnt required hook states for example.
Toolboxes got buffed
So we're just going to lie now? The literal only thing that's changed in about 3 years with toolboxes is that BNP got reworked (nerfed) and isn't the #1 best add-on anymore. That's it. Nothing else has changed except medkits were also gutted in the healing changes, and are hardly a viable alternative if people actually want to escape.
Overall repair speed for gens is faster
No, not even close to true. You seem to be confusing "killer wandering aimlessly with 4 slowdowns and zero information perks for minutes on end" (i.e. being inefficient) with gens speeds. That's a pretty common thing on these forums, actually… wander around for over a minute or more before even finding a survivor to apply pressure, then screaming "gen rush" when those survivors haven't just been politely standing AFK in the open for you to get your first hook.
All gen regression is nerfed into the ground
Again, not true. The top killer perks have really not significantly changed from Pop/PR/CI in years. The only reason people are upset about regression is because the gen kick meta allowed anyone with a pulse infinite time to hold games hostage and win by default. They've changed chase, maps, pallet, spawn logic, added a HUGE amount of aura read and information, all in the name of reducing chase times for people… and still all we hear is from "max MMR killers" who apparently need 60 minutes to not kill anyone and win by default when the game server itself gets bored.
Auto Heaven, Eyeire of Crows, Ormond and Gideon are all very survivor sided maps.
Even if I take this list at face value (autohaven? seriously?), They reworked Eyrie and Ormond both, on top of Haddonfield (now one of the most killer sided maps in the game), Cowshed used to be survivor sided, and they responded by making all of the corn maps killer sided dead zones for no reason. Maps have been made smaller and loops weaker, by killer request, for years now. (I'll also add in that the most killer sided map in the game: Midwich, got a "rework" where they didn't make it any bigger or add any better loops… they just dropped some crap in the hallways and called it a day. It's still functionally the same)
There was a time where moris didnt required hook states for example.
We're going back to the beginning of the game in 2016 at this point. You also had literal infinite loops, and permanently broken hooks, and it took something like 5 seconds to place a trap. This is a huge stretch, and really makes your points (somehow) even worse.
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@Kill_Yr_Idol83 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901302#Comment_3901302
The nerfs to gen slowdown perks has forced killers to equip 2 or more in their builds to get the same effect that only one used to have. Without that gen defense, the match is already lost from the beginning. So really, it did the opposite effect BHVR wanted. Instead of moving killers away from gen perks, it's forced us to double down on them making certain situations OP especially when they nerfed the gen kicking meta with only being able to kick a gen 9 times. It also sucked the fun out of playing a wide variety of builds unless you really just want to lose every match. Instead of nerfing so many of them, they should've just made it so the stronger ones (say Pop and Pain Resonance) can't be used together. They've also nerfed the hell outnof tunneling and camping. Yes it's not a fun playstyle but in certain situations, it's necessary. Like when you're not doing so hot and you're down to two gens, tunneling someone out, tilts the game back in one's favour but with all the new second chance perks and antitunneling/anti-aging perks, it's impossible. Also, things like kicking gens faster and breaking pallets was a necessary change given again, all the new survivor perks that far outweigh anything killers have. And nerfs to things like DS and DH were just as necessary as they were incredibly abused.
So yeah, killers are stronger now than they were back in the day BUT we also weren't facing the amount of survivor perks and SWFs that we are currently.
Just stop with this narrative that killers get nothing or it's not effective. Stop. It's not true.
In just the past year or so they've done a pass where every patch has base kit killer buffs included. Maps are vastly weaker, including new maps and reworks. Even older maps have had tile spawn logic reworked to prevent chaining and pallets are insanely weaker than they were. Hooks respawn now for you. Most countermeasures, like endurance stacking and specifically distortion, are gone.
Upcoming Phase 1 is almost exclusively killer buffs. And if the past 3 years or more is any indication, by the time phase 2 comes out people will have complained and watered down anything they might give for anti tunneling. I almost expect a toggle switch in the settings that allows killers to disable it, if the AFC feature is any indicator.
new second chance perks and antitunneling/anti-aging perks, it's impossible.
It's clearly not. A 60% kill rate says it's not impossible. The fact that they said that was their goal says it's not impossible. I'm (not) sorry if you've used broken mechanics and perks to boost your MMR higher than your skill, but they've made it so easy for killers that you almost can't help but stomp any survivors that would actually be at your skill level now.
And the fact that they're having to add an "anti tunnel" feature means the opposite of what you've claimed: they've nerfed those perks for you, and they're barely suggestions to not tunnel. It's trivially easy for killers to ignore those perks and mechanics.
They couldn't even make DS 5 seconds again because people complained, which might've actually done something to deter tunneling. But it's been over 3 years since I saw any killer even give a second thought to DS or any other anti tunnel mechanic. The solution is to brute force your way through the wet paper defense and just tunnel anyway with barely any consideration and certainly no change in play style to be seen.
BUT we also weren't facing the amount of survivor perks and SWFs that we are currently.
Perks is just laughable. I don't even know what to say there, since the only thing they've actually added in 3 years that changed remotely anything is that AFC means you have to stand slightly farther from the hook, eventually. And that's if you don't slug someone nearby and then can still hit people on hook.
SWF is the product of all the complaining, or at least the competitive aspect of the current game is. All this "buff killers and nerf survivors" nonsense that gets spouted in these forums, that the devs have catered to almost completely, has driven away a ton of casual players in the name of balance. People specifically demanded that the game be balanced against SWF, so this is exactly what you asked for, but not what you wanted (which is probably all of those buffs but curb stomping casuals every game).
The only... Only thing they haven't caved to is regression, which was so completely overblown and broken that they had to go through several rounds of nerfs... To prevent killers from holding games hostage. And in return gave out at least two years of solid buffs to make up it in every other category. And now, people want to have that cake and eat it too, keeping all of those buffs and so demanding gen kick meta regression back. The answer is no.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901009#Comment_3901009
they are not fixing it, they are just merely making it slightly more difficult to do, not to mention how it has only been getting more powerful with gen regression perks being nerfed.
In terms of anti-tunneling, the current anti-tunneling meta is literally so strong that 99% of killers can simply not tunnel anyone out without wasting huge chunks of time and leading themselves into a 3-4 stages match at most (unless survivor being tunneled and someone willing to take a hit eventually make series of mistakes.
Wow, you always seem to manage to fit so much wrong in so few sentences.
they are not fixing it, they are just merely making it slightly more difficult to do, not to mention how it has only been getting more powerful with gen regression perks being nerfed.
Making survivors less efficient at early gens is literally the entire thing you're complaining about. They aren't going to spawn on 4 different gens right away anymore, ever. They have to walk to do that (which does take time), and will likely walk into the killer as well.
That is a nerf.
It also has literally nothing to do with gen regression whatsoever. You could have the full cobruption gen kick meta back, and that doesn't matter one iota until the first down of the game. (Because, let's be honest, all this talk of "gen regression" is just wanting that level of complete control over the game again).
In terms of anti-tunneling, the current anti-tunneling meta is literally so strong that 99% of killers can simply not tunnel anyone out without wasting huge chunks of time and leading themselves into a 3-4 stages match at most (unless survivor being tunneled and someone willing to take a hit eventually make series of mistakes
I'm sorry, the "anti-tunnel" that exists has been purposefully made so weak that:
A) they're having to overhaul and add extra anti tunnel measures in phase 2 for killers to even notice and
B) you even acknowledge this because you and several others recognize that these perks are barely even suggestions to stop tunneling. Especially since you angrily insist that the most efficient way to play is to tunnel, even though these perks exist. I'm sorry you hit a speed bump, but it doesn't even come close to slowing this "strategy" down in any meaningful way.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900958#Comment_3900958
and what are we supposed to do with that information?
Splitting gens early is still the most effective strategy you can use as survivor, even without old BNPs.
Such a weird thing to complain about, since they're not only fixing the "survivors start split up" thing, but that's also included in phase 1 iirc. Anti tunneling isn't even until phase 2 at the end of the year.
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@TotemsCleanser said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900561#Comment_3900561
So what I'm gathering from this video is:
- You're playing Trapper.
- It's a 4-man SWF on comms.
- All 4 survivors are running green toolboxes with Brand New Parts.
- All of them split up at the beginning of the match, for max reparation efficiency.
- You failed to pressure them and push them off gens (though, given how much they split up and how coordinated they were, I don't really blame you).
- You still ended up getting two kills.
Yes, 4-man SWF teams who play to win and bring genrush builds will absolutely destroy you, especially when you're playing one of the weakest killers in the game. It is unfair, but it is what it is (at least for now). I wouldn't give it any much more thought than you already have. Even some of the best killer players in this game would struggle against such builds, especially if the killer is Trapper.
Most games you will not be matched against highly coordinated 4-man SWF teams (unless you have some crazy SBMMR going on). This is absolutely not your average game. I'm not saying that this shouldn't be looked into by the devs, but if I were you I wouldn't worry too much about it because every now and then you will get teams like this and the best you can do is simply not care. You had everything working against you here.
Not just these points, but also:
- OP brought Trapper, with one of the weakest kits possible.
- Specifically chose to do a challenge on this character.
- Brought zero slowdown (and as I already said, CI would've gotten full value here).
- Pauses mid-chase to pick up a trap, when he already has a trap in hand.
- Doesn't even find a survivor for over a minute, and all 4 survivors are on gens during that time. This should only happen if the killer is lost or afk, and given that there's no aura read at all, I'm guessing the former.
These are the typical "forums killer main" issues, where people aren't accounting for not finding survivors early in the match at all. He basically gave away 4 gens for free, because he didn't exist. They didn't even know who the killer was until past the one minute mark here.
So is the complaint that survivors aren't just politely standing afk near gens until you have your first hook? Cause that's all this looks like now.