AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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Imo, this depends on the rest of the content.
If you're entertaining or generally positive, then it really won't matter as much.
I can say personally that I don't really enjoy content where they generally just complain about everything, regardless if they're winning or losing.
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Just stop with the "asymmetry" argument.
Here, let's fix it this way:
A slugged survivor can now injure and down the killer, which also now gives them an opportunity to escape and turn the game around in their favor. Doing this also shortens the bleed out timer to make it faster, even if they aren't able to turn the game around. This ability is base kit, and requires no items, add-ons, or perks.
There. Now they're identical situations.
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2-4 minutes?
So, that is short enough that someone is revealed while hiding if the killer slugs for the 4k, since bleed out is 4 minutes.
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930935#Comment_3930935
But… of course they will impact kill rates. Because killers use these tactics as an easy way to apply extra pressure, get free downs, free hooks, and by extension, more kills.
Tunneling and camping have still always been huge problems that need to be addressed. But I've also always said that gen rushing also needs to be curbed, so that killers do not feel they need to resort to these tactics to win in the first place.
But… of course they will impact kill rates.
This depends entirely on what they implement. After all, AFC didn't substantially affect camping, it only affects FACE camping.
If they make "anti tunneling" a pop up in the corner that just says "it looks like your tunneling" and then give killers an option to turn off that notification in the settings, it really isn't going to have an impact.
But I've also always said that gen rushing also needs to be curbed
Anti gen rush had been a core mechanic for years now. Prove and BNP were deleted from the game. They're also changing it so that survivors spawn together, making early game spread gens harder and early game like pressure easier at the same time. That's in phase 1 this year.
so that killers do not feel they need to resort to these tactics to win in the first place.
They always will. Tunneling and camping are not a response to "gen rushing", it's the other way around. If you tunnel and camp from the start of the game (at 5 gens) you will annihilate teams at your skill level. It stops working as well when you get teams that push gens early.
There's no comeback mechanic for survivors. If they didn't get 3-4 gens done before one person gets tunneled out, the match is over and they lose.
On the other hand, tunneling is one of many comeback mechanics for killer (map patrol area getting smaller, survivor pallets and items being used up, hook stages and bleed out cannot be reset, deleted, or regressed - not to mention that camping and slugging are also tools to pressure one survivor at the expense of less pressure on the rest of the team).
The only way survivors can even have a chance against hard tunneling at 5 gens is to push gens early. There are entire killer builds ("end game builds") that rely on all the gens being done.
Killers will tunnel, because it's easy to do and hard to counter, then complain about gen speeds when they've used that tactic excessively to boost their MMR higher than their actual skill level. When the devs have made nerfs to Gen speeds, killers use tunneling to get easy wins for a while, then go immediately back to complaining about it again once they hit their new boosted MMR that they can't handle. And the cycle repeats.
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IMO these should've been in phase 1. Having them effectively be slated for December is going to be rough.
My biggest worry, though, is that even after waiting so long there's no guarantee these will actually be effective solutions. They haven't announced anything except to call these new changes "anti slug, anti tunnel, and anti camp", and to reassure players that "if they impact kill rates they will make adjustments to compensate".
Even with just that information alone, we've already had people slamming even the idea of looking into these issues. Complain early, and often has been the forums meta for about 4 years now, and it's convinced people that they can get BHVR to back down on changes, nerf before things go live.
I'll also add, that they put "anti camping" on the road map before, and what we received was AFC. There hasn't been a single post in two years about this feature that doesn't involve at least one person saying "it wasn't to prevent camping, just FACE camping". And now again, we've been given yet another black box labeled "anti camping" with no details.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930773#Comment_3930773
Which is crazy to me...
I've never really understood why people struggle with the box so much... Pinhead Box is really quite easy to play around with a half sensible team... just need someone with the lowest hooks to grab it perioidcally and run to a place with safety nearby to solve it and problem is solved. Either he teleports, in which case you loop him as you would normally, or he doesn't and you either end the chain hunt, or he manually interrupts you... in which case you loop him as you normally would, but with the odd chain to dodge…
I remember getting smashed by Pinhead the first time I played him, but after that I understood his power pretty quick, and barring his nail add-on and some cracked Pinheads with nasty builds, I've been mostly fine with him ever since...
As a Pig main however, I get much more concerned about headtrap timers on Survivor than I do Pinhead boxes... because if the Pig knows her headtrap pattern and a Survivor doesn't pay attention to/understand them, it can put you in some really nasty scenarios...
I get quite scared when I see a good Pig with certain perks/add-ons and I know I'm on a bad trap pattern... or worse, my paste eating thirst Sable teammate insists on getting healed when I know shes on a bad trap pattern. 😶
For me, at least it's the difference in relying on your team. (Not that I "hate" the box, but I do like it less than a hat).
Pig hat is almost entirely on you. Sure, your team can activate it, but it's basically just slowdown on you and pressure to do something other than gens until it's removed.
Pinhead's box, on the other hand, can completely screw you over. If your team just ignores it while you're in chase, that's going to cut your chase short.
And I can't count how many times this happens: "ok, I'm on a gen and so is Kate, Sable is in chase, and Meg is probably going for the box… Meg? Chain hunt starts... Dammit Meg".
So I suppose the easiest way to describe it is that the chain hunt isn't the problem, it's that efficiently countering it requires teamwork and communication. Neither of which is a core feature of the game by default.
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I even mentioned this issue the day they they mentioned adding bots at all, and it blows my mind that it's still here today.
If the entire survivor team is bots, just end the match.
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@Darkest_Night said:
30 minute killer queue for a 5 minute match? There's absolutely no point in participating in the event or regular play as what's the point. Once again the ball has been dropped and killers are AGAIN paying for it. DBD is no longer the hide and seek game it used to be , but instead outright pursuit and be angry.
DBD is no longer the hide and seek game it used to be
I think that should be obvious, since the "anti hiding" as a core mechanic is on the road map for sometime in the next month or two.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929558#Comment_3929558
Good job missing half the post and focussing on the slugging part.
Half the post is about the fact that survivor at any point in the match, most probably when the killer is snowballing, can simply decide to throw the towel, rush the killer to get downed and then instantly abandon penalty free. In other words survivor have now the ability to cherry pock a match that goes their way or metaphorically flip the table.
And the most "fun" thing is that the killer then has to clean up after the party or suffer a loss when abandoning themselves.
(This opinion is based on hearsay and forum info since I haven't played for years and don't exactly know if the draw for the survivor simultaneously is a draw on the killer side or if the killer can still "win" or "lose" when abandoning.)
So the things I think you're missing is that all survivors have to be slugged for this to work. A survivor can't just run to the killer and immediately abandon the match, which is what it sounds like you're describing in the middle of the post. This only comes into play when everyone is slugged, which is why I focused on hooks as a way to naturally prevent the system from coming up at all.
The idea that it's "loss or draw" is completely irrelevant since that is only on the back end for matchmaking. In game, it looks like the end game collapse and the entity "eats" the survivors just as the game closes.
Fixating on the "draw" or "loss" part imo is a waste of time. Sure, people might change their gameplay to try and get easier games (which is why I think it was a mistake for then to even clarify this in the first place), but everything about MMR is a black box when it boils down to it. If you're trying to play some "meta game" of manipulating MMR, you aren't playing the core PVP of dbd anyway.
But most of the community seems to be simultaneously: absolutely convinced that MMR does nothing, yet obsessed over details like this. Oh but also, clearly in this system that does nothing and is useless, they're obviously "Max MMR" because they're a god at the game, that's also true.
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@kit_mason said:
I think improvements to matchmaking could help alleviate differences in efficiency, because I do think survivors wasting time doing basically nothing is a huge contributor to match outcomes. Possibly the second largest, after morale (which needs to be addressed just as much, as its causing the "go next meta"').
Unfortunately, I'm personally convinced this is not a "bug" in the matchmaking, it's a feature.
The way it appears to work, is that even if the matchmaker had access to an infinite supply of survivors at every MMR level, it would still deliberately choose a weak link for your team.
I also think it would try to choose a "strong link" in an attempt to balance out the MMR average, but that doesn't matter nearly as much as the person allergic to gens.
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Or you could hook people, which avoid this whole problem and it's literally the killers objective.
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@frozzenk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928833#Comment_3928833
There is absolutely no reason to NOT seek equality in this other than bias. It's not a perception of it. It's great that one team has the option. The other team should too. Both teams should have the option. This is what a fair person would argue for.
Disagreeing with this means you only want ONE team to have it. That is bias by definition. No matter how fair you think you are, if you are in here defending that one team should have an option while the other team should not, then you are part of the issue. This is a general "you" not a specific you to your person, by the way.
And if you're in here typing stuff like "be the bigger person, just go deal with it" at killers to defend them not having an option that you DO HAVE, like someone literally did earlier in this thread, you are committing hypocrisy to an absurd degree. These should be called out. These people are the rotten apples of the community. This community needs far less hypocrisy than it currently has.
killers to defend them not having an option that you DO HAVE,
Since this is directed at me, and you aren't pinning me in it, let's talk about that.
The entire reason that abandon when all survivors are slugged exists is what you said here: there is no option like the killers have. Slugs can move at the slowest base speed of the entire game, and that's it.
There's no way, base kit, to speed up that bleed out, or get yourself out of that situation, no recovery. And in the case of bad actors, you do have to suffer 4 minutes of toxic behavior. That's true even with the abandon mechanic, since they can just leave one person up.
In the case of exit gates, killers are not in that position. They have agency, and can, by the core game, go force survivors to stop the toxic behavior and speed up the close of the match. It's even possible, that doing that forces errors, and the survivors can still die. I think punishing the toxic behavior through actual gameplay is a good thing.
But, if you take that option off the table, and completely refuse to do anything about it with your core tool kit (as the person I was responding to did), then you still have agency and options to ignore them. Again, that option is not available to a slug being humped.
If you are saying that you refuse to use the core kit of the game, which completely resolves this complaint, then walking away isn't just an option, it's the correct option, and the healthy option. If it bothers you enough that you have to take an extended break for your own mental health (as the person I was responding to said they did) then prioritize your own well being IRL, and maybe this game isn't right for you. I can't believe I'm being misrepresented in this thread enough that people think that taking a break is somehow toxic.
Additionally, the post and most everyone in it is expecting that the killer should just be able to abandon when the gates are powered, which is cutting out an entire phase of the game. That seems both rather excessive of a response (especially since not every survivor is going to linger and tea bag), and an over simplification.
Even if we gave people that option, truly toxic squads would find a way to finish a gen every 9.5 minutes and just bully as much as they want, and then the goal post moves again.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928485#Comment_3928485
This response is neither empathetic nor genuine, it's another way to try and make yourself look better while you advocate for literal griefing. PvP games are for everyone, Bullying is wrong, and if you can't see that I can't help you.
I mean, you have the situation literally in your hands, right now. The devs have also told you as much.
You are looking for someone else to give you yet another option, which will also not prevent the problem as you describe it either.
You have 3 solutions, you're demanding a band aid that still won't fix the problem. Walking away guarantees you didn't have to deal with it ever again. Your only real situations are walk away or fight back, which are both already available.
Good luck I suppose. I'm going to take my own advice and walk away from whatever this conversation has become.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928161#Comment_3928161
For some of the weakest Killers in the game, the round essentially ends the second Survivors have done so well that they decide they want to sit in the gates and make you hit them out. I am not going to waste my times with going to the gates and shoving them out while they wait one pxiel away from the border so I will specifically hit them outand can't get them even if I manage a down. I would rather forfeit gracefully and move on unless I'm running endgame perks. For me, the round is over with the gate opening. Most of the Killers I play DON'T HAVE stuff to catch Survs in the endgame unless I run something like No Way Out. What are you expecting a Dredge to do at the end? What are you expecting Trapper to do at the end?
It isn't my job to enforce Survivors ending the game and moving on, it's everyone's job to move on for the sake of sportsmanship. I don't understand why some people seem to believe that Survivor side is exempt from this rule while Killer side can be screeched at for anything and everything even when they did nothing wrong to anyone in the round. I know this isn't the truth, but it does feel that way when we say Survivors should be able to escape griefing, but Killers have to "just take it" when it happens to them.
I'm sorry, but I refuse to force Survivors out of the gates because it just gives bad actors attention they want. I refuse to give anyone the satisfaction of rubbing it in when I lose. The last time I tried to "just hit them out", I was Sadako, and had a WHOLE TEAM come in to humiliate, taunt and bait me all round when I tried to give them the win while I practiced. I was rusty and trying to warm up again and got a team who decided to pretty much make my life as miserable as they could all round and then repeatedly, repeatedly bait me into trying to hit them out. They solely waited until the last second baiting me into trying to push them out and waited until the last possible second when I refused to, why? To rub their win in. To dunk on an M1 Killer on a map offering THEY brought (it was MacMillan's and we got the Mine map). They were so severely harassing and frustrating that I tried to AFK and they sat inside me demanifested. I left for half an hour and they waited to do all the gens and bait my hits for the 4 man out solely, solely so they could teabag at the end and call me a baby Killer for being rusty at Sadako. They were also horrendous to me in the endgame chat. It felt really, really, really bad.
That was one year ago and it felt so damn bad, I have not touched Sadako since. This incident made me stop playing a Killer I liked because it felt that bad. This sort of behavior from Survivors is demonstrably detrimental to the game and to the vibe of the community as a whole. It directly leads to Killers sweating more and refusing to play "weak" Killers. And it's not all that uncommon either.This is real. This stuff, while rare, happens. And it's not okay. It's never okay. It's NEVER OK to go into a round with the express desire to bully and harass people all round. Ever, ever, ever. And I shouldn't be expected to have to play the "just force them out' game to feed egos of people like these.
Screw "just hit them out". There's too many sore winners and bullies in this game that simply do not deserve that satisfaction. I'm not going to play at the end when this is all they actually want to do, and it's SHOCKING that the community expects anyone to. We don't tell Survivors to just ignore the griefing and let them do it. Why is it OK to tell Killer players this? Especially when the Survivor and Killer players are the same people? I'm a human being, I have thoughts and feelings and emotions, I just wanna play the game - none of that changes just because I'm the antagonist.
I don't really care if the Killer technically "has agency". I don't care if it "takes five seconds" to do this. I don't care what the Devs say about this being alright, they can be wrong, this is wrong. I don't care how powerful the Killer is. I care about the game feeling fun for everyone. It doesn't feel worth it as Killer to push anyone out of the gate or even go to the gate unless you have an endgame build or something that makes the gates dangerous, period end of. This isn't alright and it feels awful.For the sake of just simply removing a common nuisance that multiple people here have said they are bothered by, why on earth NOT just add some form of abandon if Survivors are sitting in the gate or in the match at the end not doing anything or clearly trying to harass the Killer player? Games shouldn't feel THIS BAD to lose and it shouldn't be on the player to be made to have their loss shoved in their face when it isn't expected of the other half. I just want to be able to forfeit gracefully if I lose for the sake of being a good sport, and I think a lot of us are in that same boat. It really is about good sportsmanship, and how it seems one side is expected to show it but not the other all. The. Time.
The way Killer players are sometimes treated by some Survivors is abysmal and not okay. We fixed the worst of it for Survivor but I am so incredibly sick and tired of people not treating Kller players the same, as if they're emotionless husks just because they're the antagonist role. Harassing someone all round when they clearly aren't playing well just to make them feel bad and then baiting them into "nah nah can't catch me" BS isn't funny, cute, or something anyone should put up with, it's done to cause rage and tilt people - that makes it griefing. This is griefing.
I will die on this hill - we need an Abandon feature to prevent this sort of scenario. It 100% feels exactly like being slugged for a four man bleedout and I don't care if toy think it's equal or not, that's what it feels like and that is all I care about fixing. This game should not be rewarding sore winners.
Find a shred of decency and dignity and kindness in your heart. If this stuff was happening to Survivors, you'd be mad. But because it's happening when that Survivor then shifts over to play Killer, it's sort of OK?
Make it make sense.Then the most empathetic, genuine response I can give you is that you maybe need to consider if playing PVP games online is for you.
Because unfortunately, in every PVP game I've ever played there have been BM, toxic, and bully players. Tea bagging, emoting, taunting, and even toxic chat and voice is something that exists everywhere, and if it bothers you that badly you may just need to walk away.
Because in all of my experience in PVP online games these things have always existed, and that includes games where there is no disconnect penalty at all.
There is no mechanic that they can add that will fix that issue for you.
And in every PVP game I've ever played, the penalties for this have always been through game mechanics (barring extreme and reportable examples of things like chat messages). Bad actors getting farmed, spawn camped, or sometimes just their own team refusing to help them.
But if that genuinely bothers you and triggers an avoidance response, then online PVP may not be the best environment for your mental health and well being.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928173#Comment_3928173
well the power role cope only magically comes out when we're suddenly benefiting survivors but when it comes to balance suddenly that gets thrown out the window because it's "unfair for survivors" or "in the name of balance" and we see killers and killer perks get nerfed
i'm personally fine with giga buffing all killers across the board and nerfing survivors tools across the board and if survivors complain telling them to kick sand because killer is the power role but we all know that won't happen
but this is about the blatant double standard that survivors get to quit when they lose but a killer can't
i'm personally fine with giga buffing all killers across the board and nerfing survivors tools across the board and if survivors complain telling them to kick sand because killer is the power role but we all know that won't happen
I have great news for you: they've already spent 3 years doing exactly that. They even put out stats saying they're hitting those 60% kill rate targets overall, SWF is escaping at roughly the same as solo q overall, and that this has been done intentionally and specifically, not for balance, but because they want killers to be more powerful.
It's just that nothing is ever enough for some of the most entitled people in this community, and those people always want more killer buffs and survivor nerfs, no matter what the facts and data say.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928161#Comment_3928161
ah the killers are the power role cope i haven't heard that in a long time
Yeah, sorry that the "power role" and "asymmetric game" suddenly work against you when everyone in this thread is trying to equate two totally different things that, demonstrably, aren't remotely the same.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927838#Comment_3927838
Why is it my responsibility to end the game when there are four others who could end it as well?
Because the game isn't over yet. This is the huge disconnect and one of the biggest things in end game for the killer.
It's entirely possible to still get chases, hooks, even kills after the gens are completed. And that's the phase of the game that were talking about.
There are entire perks and builds dedicated to this concept, and at least one perk and build that completely relies on not just exit gates being powered, but open and the timer at least partially ticked down (blood warden).
The biggest difference here is that killers are the power role, and have tools to injure survivors and encourage or force them to behave differently. A survivor who works on a gen in the killer's face or stands in the exit gate after opening can be forced to stop doing that, base kit, by every killer. And the penalty for them continuing to do so is being injured, then downed, and potentially hooked, especially if they (or their team) makes a mistake in the process. Some killer's kits excel at this, as well as builds: people generally will not lurk around a slinger, tombstone Myers, or instadown (although there are absolutely clips of that also, and essentially free end-game kills).
I'll also point out that these tools do not exist the other way, survivors cannot force the killer to stop tunneling one person, or stop camping, or stop humping a slug for 4 minutes. There's no base kit "the killer can be forced into a state where they physically cannot do [that thing] anymore" for survivors. They can't force the killer to do anything, and at best they can make light suggestions with body blocks or perks (usually spending health states and potential gen time in the process) that the killer should maybe, please consider doing something else since this might be a barely less efficient use of time for them now.
End game, and specifically EGC is an opportunity for the killer, and a FAFO moment. You can try to bait someone out of the exit gate, you can injure, down, or possibly even instadown someone. It boggles my mind that we've gotten to a point that people think "gens are the objective" to such a degree that this equates to "gens are done, there's nothing else you can do, the game is over".
And even if you want to play the "I don't want to go see potential teabags" card: ok, you don't have to do that either. That's where the agency part of this comes into play. You can, absolutely, choose not to engage. But the match isn't over until everyone is out the gate or dead. This is an entire phase of the game that the killer has available to specifically lure survivors into overconfidence, and making last minute mistakes, that can absolutely still cost them the entire match.
I'm genuinely sorry that most people on these forums don't seem to see it that way, because that is a PvP element and mind game that people seem to just not understand in 2025 DbD for some reason.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927522#Comment_3927522
Strawman. He never spoke of intent or character. And it's not fantasy if it happens to killers every time they get on, including pretty experienced ones.
It's not a straw man, it's math.
8% is 1 in 12 (assuming colloquial rounding). So that's a basic assumption that the killers objective is to get 12 hooks. Period.
And we all know that tunneling is meta, because of you can get one survivor out before 3-4 gens are completed, then the killer effectively wins that match. So, in that case, one hook is more like 33% of the killers progress towards winning the game.
And the only reason 3 gens would be done by the time the first hook is finished is if it takes roughly 90 seconds to get that first hook and survivors are spread out on gens immediately. Again, that's just how the game works.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927817#Comment_3927817
This is true, so give them a minute to leave how about? You don't need to sit in the game for a full 2 minutes…
Or, as I told you already twice, you can hit them out.
The killer still has agency in this situation, and the base kit tools to resolve it. Especially since "hit them out" is also faster than your randomly chosen 1 minute.
The devs also told you this is the answer, so at this point I'm not sure what else to tell you.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
The only correct answer to this is "yes".
If you're advocating against this, it means you don't care about toxicity.
All this post is asking is about when the exit gates are powered.
You're assuming it's things like tea bagging, but it could also be "that solo queue player waiting to make sure everyone is ok" and being a good sport and teammate. Or just "the end game", which already allows the killer to open the gates and trigger EGC.
Because, survivors simply finishing gens and powering the gates is not toxic, by itself.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
The killer should be able to abandon when the survivors hard split and 3 gens get done at 1 hook. 60% of their objective done vs like 8%. I'd rather just go next than continue to play against the mega tryhards
Funny how you have to construct a fantasy scenario where the pristine killer in shining armor really wants to go for 12 hooks this game and politely takes at least 90 seconds to get that first hook, but the evil survivors are touching generators instead of waiting patiently to get these numbers.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927325#Comment_3927325
its not meaningless since a single unbreakable can turn a game around and if the killer is willingly going for the 4 slug a single person can just turn it around. even more so if 1 or 2 people bring boon exponential since the slugged aren't locked in place and can just move to the boon since they have 4 minutes.
it's literally survivors not adapting
Just bring unbreakable, exponential, DS, OTR, and an exhaustion perk every game, in case the killer does anything even remotely meta and base kit for them. Got it.
Not to mention crawling to the boon, which screams at the killer, also tells them where your teammates are.
Which is all irrelevant, again, because if teammates are up survivors can't abandon the match with the feature in the first place…
At this point, you're not only missing nuance, as well as clear differences, but just trying to instigate an unnecessary "us vs them" with your "git gud" comment.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927293#Comment_3927293
the survivors can bring unbreakable and boon exponential they do have options they just won't use them
Unbreakable works once, and exponential can't be applied to a totem while you're downed (but it can be snuffed).
Which is also a meaningless distraction from the core point of this discussion, which is that, base kit there is no way for survivors to get themselves up from dying.
And the options for killer, being force them out, go get BP, or just ignore them, are all base kit features.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927227#Comment_3927227
It is still a double standard to say "Survivors may quit when the Killer is a Sore Winner but Killers can't quit when Survivors are sore winners."
And frankly that's what this boils down to. You either agree toxicity and griefing needs to go, or you're for toxic griefing. I don't care if the player "has options", they shouldn't have to put up with it to start with.I already said this, but it warrants repeating: it can't be a double standard because they aren't equivalent.
I have personally had games where I forced the lingering survivors to make mistakes and gotten additional kills in this exact scenario. I was able to punish this bad behavior, with the base kit tools. I'm not implying that's common, but it's certainly a possible outcome (and some killers excel at this).
That option is simply not available in any capacity for a slugged survivor. The killer is not forced to interact with the survivors in your scenario, where the survivor has no choice but to be humped for 4 minutes and cannot get away without that feature.
I'm sorry, but at some point you need the bigger person and know when to walk away or simply ignore the trolls. The devs cannot be expected to give additional mechanics to overcome that.
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@LockerLurk said:
The ratios here are telling.
It's unacceptable in 2025 to have aspects of a game where another player, either side, is forced to watch you humiliate them and can do little about it. We added an Abandon feature for Survivors to remove the pain of a 4 man bleed out while the Killer shuffles over each one. Being told to "just push them out" or ignore it while Survivors sit in the gates wasting time teabagging or noise spamming in the hopes you'll come give them an ego boost by watching them leave needs to have the same consideration. NOBODY likes being made to helplessly watch as people act like sore winners.A little bag or two after a stun is one thing. A silly bag or occasional single twirl as you down someone is one thing. Being made to watch as someone humptechs you on the ground or sits just at the edge of the gate as a Killer that 100% can't do anything about it is another. It's griefing and it's foul.
The abandon feature doesn't prevent you getting humped on the ground for 4 minutes if there's even one survivor standing.
While I don't think toxicity has a place, you have agency and options as the killer while the 2 minute timer ticks. It is possible to force survivors to make a mistake and get a kill, let alone blood warden, which is a literal win condition that requires exit gates to be open.
And the reason people say to "hit them out" is because does exactly what you want: it stops the behavior, and they have to leave. I get that it doesn't make it less frustrating sometimes, but the option you're demanding here already exists.
And it's an option, because you can hit them out, you can go get BP around the map and take solace in knowing they're literally just wasting their own time, or you can go grab a drink.
The big thing people don't seem to want to acknowledge is that "go grab a drink" is the only option for a slug, for 4 minutes. Abandon is great if the conditions are met, but it's not hard to slug for the 4k to bypass it. You don't get to ignore it or earn BP, and you can't "force an error" to somehow escape from that situation.
These two scenarios are not equivalent, the only common point is BM, and there's no real solution to that. At least not a solution that the devs can implement. It's 100% a player mentality issue on both sides of the problem. And sometimes that will require you to step away from the game for a bit of its too frustrating (although, expecting a mature response is exactly the player mentality in taking about here).
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The main problem is that tunneling is (almost) always the correct answer:
First chase was short, or first chase didn't see any gens completed before the hook? Better tunnel, you found the weak link.
First chase took too long? Better tunnel, this is the only survivor you've made progress on.
One gen done by first hook? Better tunnel, the other 6 gens are clearly at 90% already and you need an edge to win.
And by actual mid- or end-game: need a comeback before the match is over? Tunneling!
Even in the lobby: can't be too careful, these 4 survivors are on clearly different platforms and 2 of them have maps in hand. Might be team eternal. Better tunnel someone out just to be safe.
But (some) people don't learn how to tunnel when it's actually needed, and aren't even trying to learn other tools available to the killer. Tunneling is the only strategy they know how to use in their tool kit, and when it starts to fail for them, it can't possibly be their fault they lost. In fact, there's nothing they can possibly do. It's gotta be game balance: this killer needs buffed, that survivor perk did something and needs removed from the game, the map or pallet needs nerfed.
Because the only time that tunnel is not the "correct answer" is when people have hit an MMR level where there is no longer a weak link. They've boosted their MMR until any chase they take is going to be long, because those are the only survivors who can even have a chance with a 60% kill rate deflating survivor MMR as well. There is no good choice for chase, even if they switch targets. And it doesn't require someone to be "Max MMR" to hit this frustrating level, simply they've got their personal cap.
There's really only two fixes for this. Either changing the goal of 60% kill rate to something lower, like 55%, or making the anti tunnel implementation actually meaningful to make tunneling not always the go-to answer in every situation. I'm vaguely hopeful for the latter solution later this year, but we'll see. Either of these options is going to be wildly unpopular.
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@jjb985 said:
Just stop playing killer. Then when queue times are 30+ minutes maybe they will fix the core issues. I still have people hiding 40+ minutes every match refusing to give me 4k. When are they going to change crows, afking , locker hopping? They just don't care about killer at all.
Anti hiding, survivors default to starting grouped up (so physically cannot be spread out), anti body block, map offering rework are all in phase 1.
The anti tunnel, anti camp, and anti slug in the title of this thread is all in phase 2, and we have no details for yet. Phase 2 btw, is around 6 months away still.
So they've put the changes that benefit the killer first, and you're still crying. Literally nothing will satisfy some people in this community.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925789#Comment_3925789
there are two ways survivors can do gens just as there are two ways the killers can do their objective. survivors can group up on gens which is less efficient than splitting up. if you want to go tit for tat then this would be the equivalent of a killer spreading out their hooks because both strategies are less efficient. or they can split iup on gens and completely assfuck any killer who doesn't have mobility (haven't seen any basekit changes for that yet). the killer equivalent is tunneling and camping, because that is more efficient. you just want survivors to be able to play however they want and want the killer to be beaten repeatedly with a club for wanting to match that efficiency in any way
I don't buy it for a second.
Killers ranted, raged, and demanded that prove thyself be nerfed. A perk that not only didn't overcome the base kit grouping up penalty, but also incentivized it with BP bonus. A perk now deleted from existence by demand. Ironically, the "compensation" for removing the BP incentive was to nerf the perk.
Not only that, but these things are in no way comparable. Survivors start the match at their greatest advantage, with everyone up, no pressure, and all resources available. Those resources are consumed over time, completing gens and used resources shrink the playable map area. Hooks are permanent, as is death. These are base kit features that amount to survivors having no comeback mechanic if they don't have a good start. It's also a reason the match "seems to be over" within the first couple minutes, and the "go next" epidemic.
But despite you being wrong, there's a good counter example for you: solo q are some of the least efficient players in the game. They do challenges, will actually group up early on gens, open chests, lurk for flashlight saves, etc.
And killers do not generally respond with "oh good, a match I can play casually and still have fun and likely win", instead they continue to camp and tunnel for an "easy win". There no way back for the survivors once that happens, they didn't slam gens first thing, so the game is over, go next.
That is the true problem with base kit things like camping and tunneling, is that they're always available and insanely strong. You have to play as though the killer is going to hard tunnel, or you simply lose from the start. There's no coming back if the killer eliminates a survivor before a gen is complete. Coincidentally, the killer can still easily win if a gen is complete before a survivor dies (or, as mentioned with end game builds, can still possibly win if all gens are complete… how many survivors are winning after all survivors have been eliminated do you think?)
It's been that way for years now, nearly every killer meta drives home the message that survivors need to "do gens or instantly lose the game". And giving killers sometimes overpowered tools like 3 gen and gen kick meta, doesn't mean that killers stop tunneling, no. They use those tools and tunneling for easier wins. Sorry, survivors, you didn't slam gens (or sometimes the right gens) hard enough in the first two minutes, here's your frustrating loss (after an hour).
"Gen rushing" is not base kit. It takes perks, and specifically items to pull off on top off maybe some luck. If you're getting "gen rushed" by perkless survivors, that's a not enough pressure issue.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925752#Comment_3925752
survivors complain about killer going for objective as quick as possible = reasonable, here is 700 anti-tunnel and anti-slug and anti-everything that the killer can use to gain leverage on survivors
killers complaining about survivor efficiency = killers fault, stop complaining, what else are survivors supposed to do
lolStill waiting for an answer to "what should survivors be doing other than gens?".
Because killers can spread pressure between multiple survivors, and have comeback builds and mechanics. There are end game builds designed specifically around all gens being completed.
As I mentioned, survivors, apparently can stand afk in the open, unlock chests, and maybe cleanse dull totems (as long as you aren't running inner healing/strength and not every totem, in case the killer has noed).
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@Stroggz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925719#Comment_3925719
tunneling gens means that you are allowed to finish a gen, when, following survivor rule book, killer is not allowed to finish a survivor.
"Tunneling gens" is an ignorant statement that doesn't try to even major differences, let alone nuance, which I clearly outlined in the post you didn't read.
BTW, survivor "rule book" only exists because it hasn't been addressed. The "killer rule book" stopped being talked about because the devs targeted and eliminated all of those complaints already, many of them years ago.
ETA: and exactly who is allowing them to finish a gen? Seems like there should be someone in the game with the job of pressuring survivora and giving them side tasks so they aren't able to just do gens, perhaps.
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@Crowman said:
When killers stop playing the game and queue times expode, BHVR will panick and do another 6.1 and then slowly nerf everything they gave killers in the new 6.1 patch like they did last time.
This checks all the doom post boxes.
Killers will all leave the game. ✅
Killers will be blanket nerfed ✅
Which didn't happen in 6.1 (gen kick meta came directly out of 6.1, on top of basically 10% to all killer action speed, slower gens, and nerfs to the biggest survivor meta perks).
But I'm curious in this fantasy world you've constructed: how exactly do you think that nerfs will bring back killers?
I get that you're just saying inciteful things because "killers should only ever be buffed and never nerfed" in your mind, but at least read what you wrote.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925640#Comment_3925640
Huh? I said "tunneling gens" without even thinking much about it. I have no idea which content creator you are talking about and I dont really care to know as I dont watch dbd content creators very often and have little loyalty to any of them, though there is one I absolutely despise and I can assure you, he absolutely earned my ire.
I say it that way because the phrase "tunneling gens" is an attempt to do two things.
It's a false equivalence, first. Survivors doing gens is not the same as killers going for survivors. The only thing these two have in common is that they're each teams respective objective for the match. That's where the analogy begins and ends.
Gens aren't a player, they're a PVE element. Technically it's a timer on the match, in a sense. There's no "the gen didn't get to play the match because it got finished first". That doesn't work.
Gens and hooks aren't even close to working the same. Hook stages are permanent, there is no perk, item, add-on, or mechanic that removes a hook stage from the match. Even StB moves it to a player exactly once (who announces loudly that it's happening), and does not undo that hook, even for people who misunderstand how the perk works.
Gen progress can be completely undone from 99 to zero at any time, can be taken in chunks (even base kit kicks now), regression cannot be instantly stopped.
And once a gen is complete or a player is dead there's no going back. That is progressing the match.
If survivors could "kick" a hook and remove hook states over time (regression), or gens would lock in and be unregressable every time they hit the next third of progress people would lose their minds, and even with those these two things still aren't identical.
The other thing this is attempting to do is shift the burden to imply that survivors are doing something they shouldn't be.
The default survivor gameplay is to do gens unless or until the killer gives them something else to do.
The core game is survivors reacting to the killer, not the other way around (although back and forth is common once PVP interactions come into play, like mind games, predictions, or game sense elements). Tunneling and camping is the opposite, generally leaving 2 or even 3 survivors alone (to do gens) while putting maximum pressure on one.
So that is why I say you haven't thought about this phrase.
But maybe you can give some insight, since you've been asked twice now and conveniently ignored the question both times so far:
What should survivors be doing?
Because the answer is clearly "not gens" in your mind. And, at least going by the tone of the general forums, survivors:
- Shouldn't be hiding (need to be near gens so the killer can find you easily).
- But not doing the gen itself.
- Shouldn't do anything that provides a benefit to the survivor or the survivor team (no lurking for flashlight saves, boons, body blocking, etc)
- Shouldn't do anything that is a detriment to the killer (sabo, cleansing hexes, body blocking, interacting with the killer power)
- Shouldn't be healthy, but should take as much time as possible to try to heal (health states are op, but you should need the full team to heal one person so they aren't on gens)
- Definitely shouldn't pre drop, or loop, or hold w, or pre run
- But shouldn't be giving up either
- And never, ever use any perks. Technician might be ok since you aren't touching gens
Which basically means survivors can open chests, but can't take anything that might be useful out of that chest.
But maybe I'll be surprised, so again: what do you think survivors should be doing?
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@ChuckingWong said:
Id like to preface something very simple here:
We dont know what Anti-Tunnel, Camp, Slug will even look like or what they mean by it. We have 0 idea what they are cooking up.
The response by some people seem to be thinking its all downhill, the sky is falling, everything sucks for my side but not yours etc…
We dont know. Its really that simple.
I agree with a lot of what you say about slugging. Its very hard to argue against these points about slugging from the way you have illustrated them.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925510#Comment_3925510
, it demands survivors do somthing other than slam gens like they're Usain Bolt in a track race. Slugging punishes tunneling on gens, hard
What do you want survivors to do? When people start using terms like gen rush and tunneling gens, sitting on gens.
What are they supposed to be doing?Instead you need to go pick up your teammates. It also means more engagement from the killer. More and longer chases.
Few things here.
1) You are right, you do need to go pick up your teammates.
2) Unfortunately though you dont get engagement, or chases at all. Slugging, when we are talking about killing the team by slugging out, or using it as a long term pressure relief; You do it to secure additional slugs. The reason for that is other people have to come pick the survivor up and….. →
3) When we start talking about the majority of the player base (soloQ), there are no tools for them to be able to communicate when its safe, where to go, when to come, who is coming, etc…
This is different from other games where you at least have proxy chat or some form of callout system for help on unsecured kills. DBD doesnt have this though.
So as you can imagine people rush to the save, either through a good or bad way. Get slugged, game is over.
High reward, low effort.
It ends up being a way to easily secure victory due to a lack in game design, not so much skill in the end. Which is a problem.
I am guessing the developers did not intend to see it become so common. Hook mechanics are sparsely bypassed and require a bit more from certain killers than the effort it takes to slug. So they probably dislike people bypassing the hook system unless on something like killer powers/addons that require build up time.
You also have to think about gameplay:
The people on the ground, have had meaningful gameplay disabled. If we start allowing minutes of time of just crawling and recovery/waiting, that quickly becomes an issue. The game is just stalled into a win for the killer.The core loop designed by the devs for killers is:
Chase, down, hook, repeatI would like to point out that hook states are 70 seconds each. Where is all the complaining from survivors about being left on hook for 60+ seconds while their teammates loop the killer and slam gens? I havent seen any, have you? Curious, that survivors will complain about being left on the ground for any length of time though, and then those same survivors will defend 70 second hook states. Please tell me you see the hypocrisy here.
This is extremely hard to argue against. But the reason for it is because the comparison you drew here, doesnt happen with slugging. Noone is complaining about being slugged by pig/trapper/hag and then cross map you are all just working on gens.
Slugging with high movement is the problem. You proxy camp it and dont really care about the person on the ground. Chases are fast. You dont get to push out gens as you are under threat by some kaneki/nurse/blight/billy.
And in the end SOMEONE will be coming to the slug to save. Or multiple. So you dont have to proxy too far or much to begin with.
Again, stalled into a win. Not really having to do with skill. Noone could communicate or coordinate what happened.
Lets also be honest with hook timers, do you really think you are getting the full 70 seconds worth of hook time value on your hooks? Like I get the increased the timer change; but 60 to 70 I haven't noticed a difference at all.It seems to me that again, people are not being honest about what they dislike so much about being slugged or the complaints ultimately stem from this strategy countering gen rushing, and not triggering survivors most powerful perks. If it's the latter then people are just being sore losers. If its the bleedout times then you know I have said I am in favor of shortening them.
Few things part II)
I cant speak for everyone else. But slugging versus a hook is a huge problem gameplay wise.
Hook you can just save, instant mechanic.
Slugging you have to wait, coordinate(somehow), person has to recover which takes awhile, and position correctly. Or you just get slugged right back down.
Its pretty obvious here what the issues are with slugging, versus hooking. Too much time investment, too much required on the survivors end(multiple of them), no way to coordinate a save… and ultimately you are still vulnerable to be downed the moment you get up.
BHVR even added protections (basekit bt) so you dont just get downed after unhook, which tells you their philosophy on stuff like this..
Its also not enjoyable. End of the day this is a video game, sure certain things you "arent meant to enjoy" but having all basic function of your character disabled for minutes is a separate category from "I dont enjoy dying".
Reducing the bleedout timer would just incentivize slugging more, not even a question, so I would have to give you hard pushback on that idea. You still end up with bleeding out more.Just chiming in here for a couple of notes.
Fully agree that they have announced nothing on these mechanics, so almost everything is speculative.
Imo, "anti slugging" should target exactly and only 2 main things: what I refer to as "excessive slugging" and "slugging for the 4k".
Slugging for the 4k is pretty self explanatory, and could also be targeted by reworking hatch (again).
Excessive slugging is generally slugging as a strategy (not using hooks at all, deliberately, and not simply because someone is lurking for a save, for example), or slugging to bleed out. Generally this is everyone slugged to bleed out, or possibly one person being humped on the ground for 4 minutes.
And while this is just my opinion and speculation, these are the kinds of questions they asked about in the surveys, so at minimum there is evidence the devs are thinking about these cases also. What that mechanic looks like, I have no idea (nor does anyone else).
Secondly, there is exactly and only one reason I ever see anyone use the phrase "tUnNeLiNg GeNs", and that's because it's a phrase from a content creator who generally complains incessantly about survivors, and people who watch this person just mindlessly repeat these ideas. Even and especially when they have no basis in reality.
All this phrase actually means, is the killer not pressuring survivors, and it's somehow simultaneously the survivors' fault. Period.
In reality, if the killer is afk, survivor gameplay is "do gens and leave", and it's on the killer to give the survivors something other than gens to focus on (this is pressure). That can be a lot of things: killers power, "interactions" (body blocks, saves), healing and recovery, hexes or other perk counterplay, but usually the primary one is chases and hooks (one in time out, one going for save).
Any time I see someone say survivors are "tunneling gens", they're expecting and demanding that survivors do nothing until they're ready for them. Most of these people will hard tunnel and play killer like it's comp, even using "comp" as justification for why this play style is "necessary", while deliberately ignoring that comp survivor is literally "gen rush, pre drop, run to comp corner" with situational "body blocks or saves".
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@Nicholas said:
What exactly are they doing about slug, camp and tunnel? I cannot locate the new mechanic info anywhere.
There isn't any information yet. The only thing they've said officially is that something called "anti camp", "anti slug", and "anti tunnel" is planned on the roadmap for phase 2, which is likely around December or later.
The only other official information is that the community manager said on the forums that if the phase 2 changes have any impact on kill rates they will work to fix that.
Everything else is speculation at this point, or both speculation and doom posting.
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@Ace_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925093#Comment_3925093
Let’s break this down because there’s a lot of misinformation here.
First off, survivors getting more tools than they need? That’s an understatement. It’s not just that survivors are getting more tools, it's that none of these tools actually address the real issue. We keep getting half-baked attempts at "fixing" camping, but they’re usually either ineffective or nerfed to the point of being completely useless. Tools like base-kit BT, Reassurance, and AFC aren’t doing anything meaningful to combat camping—these are just band-aids on a bigger problem. Survivors have the means to outplay or outright ignore killers with perks or mechanics that heavily favor them, while killers are still forced into subpar options that can’t compete.
And let’s talk about this "paper towel to stop a flood" analogy. It's spot on. The devs are slapping useless tools onto survivors, hoping it'll solve the problem without addressing the real reason killers camp or tunnel in the first place—generator speeds. Survivors don’t even need to do anything special. They zoom through generators so quickly that unless a killer is directly applying pressure (like camping or tunneling), the game is basically over. Survivors don’t need these extra tools—they’re already getting their objectives done too fast, and now the devs want to give them more perks to "deal with camping"? It’s a joke.
Now, you’re saying that killers getting any edge means the devs backpedal? Please. That’s what we’ve been dealing with for years. The devs nerfed slowdown perks because survivors kept crying about them. What did we get in exchange? A focus on chases, but who cares when survivors are still flying through gens? Chasing is great and all, but if you don’t have any meaningful way to slow down objectives, what’s the point? You can get a chase, but that doesn’t stop the gen from flying and the survivors from getting away. Killers don’t have the same tools to slow down the game, and when we do get some, they’re nerfed or ineffective before they even go live.
You say the devs focus on reducing chase times, but that’s not the issue. Survivors can rush gens at a speed that makes chasing feel irrelevant. The game’s been tilted so far in favor of survivors that unless a killer is actively camping or tunneling, there’s no chance of slowing down survivors. Chases are nice, but they don’t address the real core problem: survivors’ ability to complete objectives far too quickly. When you give survivors more tools, you’re just increasing their ability to dodge pressure, not actually fix the problem.
Finally, this idea that "killers shouldn’t camp or tunnel" is ridiculous. The game forces us into these strategies because of how quickly survivors complete gens. If a killer isn’t camping or tunneling, the match is over within minutes. What are we supposed to do, just let them rush through gens with no consequences? The devs have done nothing meaningful to slow down the pace of survivor objectives, and yet we’re still blamed when killers resort to camping and tunneling. It’s not about being lazy or unwilling to chase—it’s about the game forcing killers to play in a way that’s not fun, just to keep up with the constant gen rushing.
So no, killers are not "lazy" or "not playing the game correctly." The problem is the game’s design itself, and until the devs address the speed at which survivors complete objectives, camping and tunneling are the only viable options for killers. These changes are bandaid solutions to deeper problems, and survivors already have plenty of advantages.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925127#Comment_3925127
Yes, Dead by Daylight has been around for a while, and issues have persisted. But that’s exactly the point: these problems—especially with survivor perks and the imbalance between survivors and killers—haven’t been meaningfully addressed by the devs for years. Just because something has been in the game for a long time doesn’t mean it’s okay, and certainly doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be fixed. The fact that we're still dealing with the same complaints after nine years is a glaring sign that something has been missed, not something to defend.
Now, you're bringing up the point about how things are finally being addressed, but why are we still here discussing this? Is it really about fixing the issues, or is it just about making it even harder for killers to win? Killers have had to try harder and harder to win, but the game still tilts in favor of survivors. The devs’ attempt to fix things feels more like they’re slanting things even more toward survivors. Instead of balancing, they’re just swinging the pendulum in the other direction and making killers jump through even more hoops. If we’re finally going to address issues, let's talk about fixing the problems without going too far in the opposite direction and making it even more "unfair" for killers.
As for making the game fair for both sides, I don’t see that happening. BHVR has admitted multiple times that they don't aim for perfect balance. They’re skewing the game towards killers, but it doesn't feel that way. Survivors have been given perks, tools, and mechanics to help them against killers for years, and now when the killers get something, it’s seen as "unfair" or "too much." Killers don’t need to be constantly restricted just so that survivors can have their fun. You can’t make a game where survivors can rush through objectives without consequence and still call it "fair."
On the topic of gen speeds, it's not just a scapegoat; it’s an actual problem. You’ve got killers who can't do anything to slow survivors down effectively, and once again, the moment a killer loses, the first excuse is "gens too fast." But when gen speeds have been reduced and killers are still struggling, it’s clear there’s a deeper issue with the design of the game itself. Survivors can easily rush through gens, and there's little meaningful pushback from the killer’s side. So yes, until the devs address gen speeds properly and stop just throwing a "fix" at the problem that barely helps, killer mains will continue to point to gen speeds as a major issue.
At least we have a point of agreement that the tools survivors have are at best ineffective.
The devs nerfed slowdown perks because survivors kept crying about them. What did we get in exchange? A focus on chases, but who cares when survivors are still flying through gens? Chasing is great and all, but if you don’t have any meaningful way to slow down objectives, what’s the point? You can get a chase, but that doesn’t stop the gen from flying and the survivors from getting away. Killers don’t have the same tools to slow down the game, and when we do get some, they’re nerfed or ineffective before they even go live.
This is the huge disconnect. Chase. Is. The. Slowdown.
Modern DbD killers so not understand map pressure whatsoever. People cannot get out of their heads that standing near a hook to camp or wait to tunnel isn't pressure on more than just one survivor. The rest of the survivor team is going whatever they want when the killer does nothing to stop them. And camping and tunneling are literally the killer doing nothing but waiting.
If you leave the hook, and go chase a survivor off of a gen that's slowdown. If you have one person on hook, one in chase, and one going for rescue/recovery, then at most one person is on gens.
If you instead camp, then one person is on hook, one person is rescuing (maybe), and two are on gens. And it's possible, if the person on hook can communicate or show (kindred) that the killer is camping, that all 3 others are on gens.
So chasing people off of gens and leaving the hook is minimum 50% less gen speed, possibly as much 67% less. That's map pressure.
And I know people understand this on some level, because tunneling is the goal of getting someone out fast enough that having one on hook, one in chase, and one rescue/recovering almost completely stops gen progress. It's not that this doesn't work, it's just not as easy as camping or tunneling.
Because the other reason people camp and tunnel is that they're relying on the survivor team panicking and falling apart when it happens. Which, coincidentally, like most strategies, stops working when you hit a level where everyone on the team has the game knowledge to know what to do.
Chase is the reason for the game. Flat out. It's the primary PVP dynamic of the PVP game. This is like asking what's the point of shooting in CoD or CS.
Downplaying chase is the reason most people struggle.
Yes, you do have the tools. You're simply not using them, dismissing all of the help the devs are giving you, and throwing up your hands because you want and demand regression. Survivors are the objective and the opponent for the killer, not gens.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925065#Comment_3925065
These changes dont compare tho? Anti slugging etc happens throughout the game. anti go next only happens 1 in 10 matches (atleast for me) and the anti hiding only comes into effect at endgame or 2 survivors remaining
Anti hiding is likely going to be all game.
Survivors no longer spawning spread out is literally once, but helps mitigate the biggest complaint from killers, meaning early "gen rush".
Anti "go next" helps literally everyone.
And, as someone else already pointed out: we have no details on phase 2, so no one can honestly speak to how it might work or when it activates.
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@Ace_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925079#Comment_3925079
I see what’s going on here. You’re out here acting like the killer is just outclassed, and all this nerfing of tunneling, camping, and slugging is going to solve everything. The truth? It’s just not that simple.
Let’s get one thing straight: the real problem isn’t that killers are too aggressive or unfair, it’s that survivors are getting more tools than they need. They’ve got perks that let them heal across the map in seconds, escape from almost any chase, and slam out gens at lightning speed with little to no risk. You talk about tunneling and slugging being the “last resort,” but let’s be real — when the entire survivor side is built to make sure you have almost no chance of catching them in a fair chase, what else is a killer supposed to do?
You really think AFC is going to solve camping or slugging? Please. It’s like giving someone a paper towel to stop a flood. We’ve seen this dance before: the devs throw out these “fixes” that barely touch the issue. Campers and tunnelers will just keep doing what they’ve been doing, and the game will still feel unbalanced. Meanwhile, survivors get to pull out second-chance perk after second-chance perk, running away with the game with every map rotation.
And gen speeds? Don’t even get me started. They’re way too fast for the killer to even try and keep up with. It’s like the survivors are on a time crunch while the killer’s stuck in slow motion. The whole "gen-speed complaints" are treated like an afterthought, but seriously, how many times have we seen survivors rush through gens like it’s nothing? The problem isn’t just killers camping or tunneling — it’s that survivors have way too much power with how quickly they can finish gens and escape.
Sure, we get a few changes here and there, like nerfing the perks, but then you get the same cycle over and over. The second the killer gets any edge, the devs backpedal, and suddenly we’re left with nothing to slow down survivors. Killers aren’t just randomly camping or tunneling because they’re bored; they’re doing it because survivors are constantly given the tools to make escaping way too easy. Whether it’s DS, Unbreakable, Circle of Healing, or the lovely perk Dead Hard (which is basically the only survivor who gets to dodge a hit), killers have to compensate somehow. If they don’t, survivors will literally just dance circles around them while cranking out gens.
So, I’m not buying this idea that killers have all these “unfair advantages” just because they’re doing their best to keep the match fair. If anything, they’re fighting an uphill battle while survivors breeze through the game. Maybe instead of nerfing killer tools, the devs should consider slowing down the game for survivors. Let them feel the weight of their actions for once, instead of running around like the whole map is theirs to play in. There’s only so much killers can do when the game is so skewed in favor of survivors.
But sure, keep defending the idea that killers are the problem here. Keep ignoring the fact that it’s the survivors who’ve been handed all the advantages for years. Keep acting like tunneling and camping are the real issues, when in reality, they’re just a consequence of everything else being so stacked against the killer.
And when the next update rolls out and survivors are still dominating the game, we’ll see who’s really been overcompensating.
There's a lot of bs to unpack here, but briefly:
it’s that survivors are getting more tools than they need
Those tools are typically implemented very conservatively, then nerfed by request before going live, and there are so many because the problems still persist because the tools do nothing meaningful to change anything.
Reassurance, AFC, base kit BT, all exist to combat camping in some form. The only thing you and I seen to agree on is that, in your words, "It’s like giving someone a paper towel to stop a flood." Yes, it's effectively useless and doesn't come into play almost ever, and camping as a whole is alive and well.
So either survivors actually need tools to meaningfully combat camping, or the tools they have need to be effective to the task.
The second the killer gets any edge, the devs backpedal, and suddenly we’re left with nothing to slow down survivors
No. Simply wrong.
The devs realized with the gen kick and 3 gen metas that giving killers slowdown was entirely the wrong approach. Killers will always focus on gen speeds.
What the devs did instead, isn't nothing, they focused on chase times. All of those things I mentioned, most importantly bloodlust, map reworks, pallet and tile changes, buffing the daylights out of chase and information perks... All of that is to reduce chase times.
And it worked, chase times were about 60 seconds total, for the whole match (per survivor). So chasing survivors, which is the killer's role, has been progressively made much simpler and easier.
But, they do a poor job of relaxing that to the community, and apparently some people need it spelled out that the "global nerfing of all pallets and tiles" even happened.
Killers aren't playing with the generally goal of chasing, which is the primary problem with camping and tunneling. Standing at a hook doing nothing should be a waste of time in most situations. It's not gameplay, and it's not creating gameplay.
Yet despite all of those changes to information, and chase, and even utility, killers are still wandering the map blindly for the first 60 seconds or so of the game and then acting shocked Pikachu that survivors dared to touch gens instead of also doing nothing meaningful at the start of the game.
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@MentiPento said:
No killer buffs...
How wildly biased do you have to be to not notice that they're not only adding "anti hiding" and "anti body blocking" to the game, those features are included in phase 1.
So the killer buffs are coming first, and about 6-7 months ahead of anything for survivors in phase 2.
ETA: MMR update should be beneficial for everyone, as is anti cheat. The qol updates are universal as well.
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@Ace_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924908#Comment_3924908
Yes, BHVR has made changes over the past few years — no one's denying that. But let’s not pretend all killer buffs are created equal or that they’ve fully addressed the root problem: the time pressure killers are under versus the efficiency survivors have access to. The truth is, most of those changes have been piecemeal or reactionary, not part of a cohesive vision for maintaining killer viability.
And let’s talk about that ‘abysmally low escape rate’ — if that stat were telling the whole story, we wouldn’t see such a drastic skill gap between solo queue and SWF killers. The experience still feels wildly different depending on who’s in the lobby, and while solo escape rates are lower, that doesn’t suddenly mean killers are thriving. It often just means solo survivors get less communication, not that killers are somehow overpowering.
Also, reducing survivor power creep doesn’t automatically translate to ‘killer buffs.’ A nerf to medkits or map sizes helps, sure — but it doesn’t give killers new tools to create pressure or manage the game flow. And yeah, people miss gen-kick meta because it was one of the few mechanics that let killers interact meaningfully with gen speed. It wasn’t just regression — it was a way to delay the inevitable snowball from strong teams who know how to split pressure.
Saying that ‘people just want control’ is a bad-faith take. What we want is counterplay. If you're going to nerf tunneling, slugging, and camping — tools that killers use when they have no other way to regain control — then yes, compensation should be part of the conversation. Otherwise, you're just asking killers to play ‘fair’ in a system that's still heavily tilted toward survivor efficiency.
If you're going to nerf tunneling, slugging, and camping — tools that killers use when they have no other way to regain control
The most important part of this entire post is that they've said nothing, literally nothing about the details of any mechanics in phase 2.
The entirety of this original post, and across these forums for that matter, is nothing but doom posting about a potential feature that might cause people to have to stand 11m from a hook 7 months from now. The horror.
Because that's the level of mechanic that they implement when they do stuff like this. AFC doesn't stop camping, is barely a speed bump and completely trivial to play around. That's the level of mechanic we're likely to get. But people start complaining early, and often, and the devs will not only put out something weak to PTB, but probably it'll get nerfed by request before it hits live also.
But here's the proof of my statement here, from your first post on this thread:
You can’t nerf slowdown into the ground, leave gen speeds untouched, load the survivor side with second-chance perks, and then act surprised when killers tunnel someone out early.
It's about slowdown. It's always about slowdown. It always has been.
And this is the exact same mentality and comment we've seen for years now: killers tunnel/camp/slug because of:
Gen speeds, dead hard, DS, circle of healing, maps too big, pallets too strong, "infinites", prove thyself, reassurance, scavenger, background player, BNP, MfT, distortion, adrenaline, "SWF is so much stronger than solo".
Every single one of those has been directly nerfed or addressed, and every single time, people move the goal post to the "next major problem".
And, ironically, basically any activity that would involve survivors not doing gens has also been nerfed by request. Mainly this is interactions with the killer, boons, and soon to be body blocking. But this only leaves survivors with "do gens" or "stand afk" as potential gameplay options.
Killers excessively camp, tunnel, and with because it's easy to execute and difficult to counter. That's it, that's the only real reason.
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They just announced that they've got every target metric for killers. Kill rates are 60% overall, escape rates are level between solo and all SWF overall, and the upcoming phase 1 includes anti hiding for killers and anti go next for literally everyone.
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Or you could pick people up and hook them.
But I'll be honest, the only reason you want this is so the killer can win the game by 4 man slugging, and then "lose" by abandoning the match.
Maximum toxicity toward the survivors, you get to win the match, but the MMR system counts it as a loss so you get easier games.
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Killers need compensation in other areas, whether it’s basekit improvements, better chase mechanics, or meaningful perk reworks,
They've been doing exactly this in literally every patch for three years now.
The past year has had individual killer buffs, base kit, add-on reworks, and usually 2-3 killers per chapter or so.
Maps have been reworked, tile spawn logic changed, pallets significantly weakened, entire realms reworked, newer maps are smaller and have tons of dead zones.
Bloodlust had been buffed, anti gen tap completely eliminated gen tapping, hooks respawn. Healing was gutted specifically by request so people could play hit and run.
Just about every single class of killer perk has been buffed. (The one exception to this is literally the only reason for your post, and I'll finish with that)
They spent 3 years deliberately altering the game balance from basically every direction to increase kill rates, and successfully. They've even gotten it to the point where, overall, SWF and solo are escaping at roughly the same abysmally low rate.
So, the only reason for this post to even exist is the only thing they haven't given killers back: gen kick meta levels of regression. It's all some people want is complete control of the game. They've given a metric ton of information, chase, and utility. And all people want is infinite time (or currently, 10 minutes of holding the game hostage).
So no. Not every change in the game requires some kind of compensation buff.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924189#Comment_3924189
So, they took the game from a roughly 50% kill rate around patch 6.1.0 three years ago
I have played during that time it wasn't really fun imo. I especially didn't enjoy 8 minutes+ queue times on survivors (I play only during evenings EU), which was an issue needed to be fixed imo.
Main thing to understand is kill rate is not same as win rate. If you have killers who has at least 1 kill in majority of their loses, then their kill rate is going to quite high with way lower win rate.
In reality 50% win rate equal is going to be 56-58% kill rate depends how killer perform on their loses.I have played during that time it wasn't really fun imo
Honestly, the direction of the game has caused a huge number of casual (survivor) players to quit. So the "ideal match" that a lot of players claim to want has been pushed away from the game because of this balance decision.
I used to play with a SWF 4 man who played to hang out. We messed around, drank on a weekend and played. The balance changes drove all of us away, leaving mainly competitive "sweaty" players to continue playing.
In reality 50% win rate equal is going to be 56-58% kill rate depends how killer perform on their loses.
This completely ignores that draws exist. Even if it's all we have, and limited data, overall killers are doing better than survivors.
Overall, matches are roughly 49% 3k-4k, 37% 0k-1k, and about 14% are draws at 2k. That also means that, just by playing killer and nothing else, you start with a 33% higher chance of winning. I'm a game where, as survivor, your team can win even while you still die.
Even ignoring "win", the 60% kill rate is completely arbitrary. Nearly everything about the current state of the game says that 60% is too much to be healthy: massive uptick in "go next" and hopeless matches, killers way too easily stomping teams that are at their skill level, causing them to go against opponents better than they are and making matches frustrating, driving casual players away, the devs being forced to add even more band aid fixes instead of dealing with core problems (first bots, now surrender).
It's not competitive, and it's not casual. It's just arbitrary. The only reason people defend this is because they want easier games, and the devs have been more than happy to tip the scales in their favor.
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Where is the balance in this situation?
Same place as the balance in having a 60% kill rate and 40% escape rate.
It's almost like having hopeless matches and a game balance designed around your team losing more than the other team, also seems to have a direct impact on the player.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924123#Comment_3924123
What does that mean?
I don't recall the post.The devs have said publicly and repeatedly that the direction of game balance has been a target of a 60% kill rate overall. Which means that survivors should be escaping roughly 40% of the time.
They've also said that this target 60% number is for "the feel of the game". I've also never seen a game work to be more competitive over time, while also saying that your choice of which team you play has a massive impact on your expected match outcome. We have had (and currently have) killers who win twice as many matches as the survivors they face, which happens at around the 67% kill rate mark.
So, they took the game from a roughly 50% kill rate around patch 6.1.0 three years ago, and intentionally made changes to the game to increase the kill rate. That's literally "making the game easier for killers".
Here's a post from literally a couple weeks ago where they give stats showing that their goals are being met:
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922058#Comment_3922058
I mean, to be fair, you don't see anyone talking about this system having an effect because it worked. You acknowledge it yourself, even people who want to camp started proxy camping instead.
Facecamping is functionally dead, that means the system was a success.
Personally, I think this system does have flaws worth tightening up, but there's no getting around the fact that it was pretty damn successful already.
This depends on perspective.
If you think the problem is that killers were hitting people on hook or simply waiting for a free down with a hook grab, then maybe the system did something. Although removing hook grabs likely did far more.
There are certainly ways to face camp with this system. You can just count to twenty and take a few steps back. You can down a survivor near a hook and stand as close as you like. For some killers, 11m is still well within lethality and they can down you on the way to the hook, so who cares?
But if you consider the core problem to be "killers aren't chasing survivors, they're standing at a hook doing nothing and calling it gameplay" this system has been completely ineffective at that. That, imo, has been the main issue that people wanted addressed.
And honestly, since the devs are still having to implement some other kind of "anti camp" measure in phase 2, that tells me the goal still hasn't been reached. So removing hook grabs and adding AFC hasn't met the devs goals, nor the goals of people who were asking to meaningfully address camping.
Personally I find the "strategy" of staring at a hook to be the most boring thing in the game. I can acknowledge that it has a situational place, but that shouldn't be every hook, and certainly not the first hook of the game.
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AFC is literally useless. Killers effectively have to opt in and consciously choose to make it trigger.
And you can tell that it does nothing by the responses: I haven't seen killers talk about this having an effect since it went live, but every. Single. Thread. About this feature has "iT's AnTi- FACE cAmP" with a zillion upvotes.
The default isn't to complain that it does anything, like literally every other thread on the forums, the default is to defend it's current implementation, because it has literally no effect. It's so trivial of a feature that you can play around it even if you play the game with your monitor turned off.
AFC actually made some killers better at the game, because they finally realized that proxy camping is better than hitting people on hook.
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@Nicholas said:
What do you mean by the vote feature?
One of the reasons I want to Go-Next is when The Killer is super laggy. Especially projectile killers, it isn't fun or fair and oftentimes wastes time. Nothing fun about getting hit behind cover, through walls, etc. You also raised some other points, and there are many other reasons for DC's. This is what the dev should be discussing with the community. We need a cure for the problem, not a Band-Aid for the symptom, and all of these mechanics are Band-Aids.
This. You can band aid chase the symptoms, but the root cause is still there.
I've said before that they're doing this part backwards: anti camp, anti tunnel, and anti slug need to be first. These are the primary reasons many people are going next. These are the "I don't get to play the game" mechanics that cause people to consider a game hopeless early.
Sure, there are other reasons, like pettiness. But people haven't become more petty over time. The main reason we've seen an increase in giving up is balance reasons. And addressing some of those balance problems will help alleviate some of the core issue that causes this behavior.
I don't believe there's a single solution that completely solves the issue, but I don't believe that punish them all solves literally any of the core reasons people feel that games are hopeless.
(Although, I do personally find it ironic, that many of the same people who push for punish them all are the same ones who defend these tactics. "Incentivize hooks", "if you just buffed regression this wouldn't happen", and other things that are demonstrably false or have already been tried and absolutely backfired. Yet if you try to say "hey, let's give survivors literally anything to make the game not completely hopeless in the first 90 seconds" you get nothing but spewed vitriol in response.)
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@LockerLurk said:
My issue with all you just said, Ampersand, is that despite fundamentals it takes TIME to learn new Killers' powers. Shouldn't it be the case you have kinda less difficult Survivors while learning a new Killer's power? Why set them at the same level or roughly about the same level as your most successful Killer? I agree once the fundamentals are learned you ought to be out of the Kiddie Pool, but every Killer also plays differently and some powers can be more difficult to master. Why start a Killer you never played at the same level as one you play frequently? They aren't the same.
I also do not care about smurfing, I think it's an overexaggerated issue. As long as there's a hard cap you can't go below after you're out of. That's frankly all the game needs to prevent smurfing, IMHO.
From my understanding it does work the way you think it should.
My understanding of new killer MMR is that they take your overall/average from all of your killer play, then drop that by some amount (like 200 or so). That's your starting MMR for a new killer out of the box.
And yeah, there will be some learning curve for understanding the killers power. There's also the option to practice against bots in custom lobbies. I usually play at least a couple rounds just to get a feel for the power. My first game is always without add-ons, so I can get a base line, and then maybe try a couple with just qol add-ons to get the feel. If I hate the feel I can always disconnect from a bot match with no penalty and, most importantly, without running someone else's match. That's one main reason custom games even exist.
But, worst case scenario, (nearly) every killer can be played as a simple m1 killer even if you aren't getting maximum, or even good, value from their kit. That m1 style of play is (almost) universal, and there should be a non-zero base line MMR that reflects your individual skill as a completely generic killer with no power. But that isn't going to be zero unless you're literally playing with your monitor turned off.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921132#Comment_3921132
I think both you and OP here are correct.
It's frankly absurd to have MMR for new killers be partial to your best performing Killer. It's also nonsensical to ONLY have MMR for Survivors increase on escapes while it only increases/decreases on Killers based on kills - so Killers therefore always end up facing way harder battles later while Survivors always seem to get stuck with awful teammates. It feels really bad too that you lose MMR more slowly than you gain.
Why not just make it linear and based on some other metric? I'll never understand…It's frankly absurd to have MMR for new killers be partial to your best performing Killer.
There are actual fundamentals of gameplay that are pretty consistent between all characters. Map knowledge, game sense, what perks/loadout you use or even have access to, how to zone, loop, and pressure. None of that changes just because there's a new killer power.
Sure, there's a learning curve, but it's not like people are reset back to "never seen the game before" every 3 months.
Why not just make it linear and based on some other metric
Because kills and escapes are the only things that matter. If the devs chose literally anything else to base this on, then there are a huge number of people who would play killer, kill every survivor, yet make sure to "lose" for easier games. People used to do this with the old system too, and "deranking" was a huge problem for a long time.
It's also supposed to be a weighted system, so if you're the underdog and you manage to beat a team that is ranked higher than you, you should gain more MMR than if you stomped a team way below your rank. It's how just about every ranking system in the entirety of gaming works at this point.
This also helps to prevent smurfing, so you can't just farm easy games on a brand new account.