AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
About
- Username
- AmpersandUnderscore
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
I know, I can't wait! I have my post already typed up for the instant they post anything.
I get to hit all the forums highlights:
- You can't possibly do this!
- How can you tell us how to play?
- This will kill the game!
- Good luck with your 40 minute queue times when we all quit!
- Where's my compensation buffs?
Man I'm so excited. Just waiting to hit "post" when they announce anything at all.
-
@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967653#Comment_3967653
Because it's hard to tell if you're "camping" or not sometimes. Killers that want to camp would not be able to use this info, while Killers that don't want to will use it to gauge if they're too close.
Well, the mechanic isn't there to impact "camping".
It's anti FACE camping.
Maybe, if you're actually worried about "not camping", there are at least 2 survivors doing gens that you could leave the hook and actually go chase and this wouldn't be a concern at all.
-
@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3967283#Comment_3967283
I don't hate that idea, but what's to stop a killer from still tunnelling, but instead of killing one person you just burn through everyone's health states with as many slowdown perks as possible (especially against altruistic teams)? Also what's to stop that being used in completely honest chases with no tunnelling?
Questions like this are the reason Anti-tunnel is such a complex issue and I'd rather BHVR take their time. Whenever I play survivor myself or one of my friends get hard tunnelled at least once so I know the frustration, but I also know without the perfect solution tunnelling will either become an even worse issue or won't be affected at all.
I really don't understand why people are so opposed to killers having a system like what I suggested tho. It not only de-incentivises tunnelling but also incentivises getting back into chase (the most fun part of the game for the majority of the playerbase). And a version of your idea might work (even in conjunction with a version of mine) but I feel like its not the fix you think it is and is just a flat nerf to killer.
instead of killing one person you just burn through everyone's health states with as many slowdown perks as possible (especially against altruistic teams)?
Ok? I mean, the whole point of this system is to spread hooks and encourage the killer to burn through hook stages. The least efficient way to do that is to camp and tunnel, because you want to be working on your next hook while someone is still on hook.
This basically just forces killers to discover pressure as a slowdown force. Being concerned that slowdown will still make things to easy just confirms that I don't really think this is so impactful that killers will need that many buffs. The system works, because you can play this way more or less right now, on live. People don't, because tunneling is easier.
Also what's to stop that being used in completely honest chases with no tunnelling?
If you're already spreading hooks, then the system works exactly like live. In fact, hooking each survivor exactly once is effectively doing both: burning through hook stages and "countering the system" since no one even has a first hook to "donate".
There's no concern in a "fair or honest" game, because that plays out exactly the same. This is, honestly, the kind of gameplay this system is actively promoting: spread hooks, give everyone a bit of chase, and you get map pressure and get to act like the system doesn't even exist.
It only comes into play in hard camping and tunneling situations, and makes those situations less efficient ways to play the game.
That's part of the flexibility of the system, honestly is that is leaves player agency completely intact. Killers can choose to camp over survivor or tunnel them to death, it just isn't as efficient as spreading pressure.
You *can* still camp a hook, but since you're going to be there for about 7 minutes, the gens will all be done and the gates open.
-
@Emeal said:
Here is my own take:
Tunneling Penalty/ Fatigue System for Killers
This a in-game mechanic that discourages killers from immediately downing and rehooking the same survivor right after they’ve been unhooked. Instead of preventing tunneling outright in any game, which would remove killer agency, it adds temporary penalties (fatigue) when the system detects that a killer is serial tunneling.
It isn't about just one tunnel because its the best solution right now, its if you tunnel again and again.
It should be easily detectable in large quantities.Once we got that, slowdown and other effects can be added to make it much harder to continue. ala Orange Glyph.
I think this is a flexible system that does not punish any tunneling, but will hit the serial tunneler Killers the hardest.
it adds temporary penalties (fatigue) when the system detects that a killer is serial tunneling.
So, if there's one take away we should have from the recently attempted go next and crows systems it's that any automatic system trying to "detect gameplay" is going to be highly flawed, subject to false positives, and is basically just defining "what is gameplay".
How does this system even work? It seems abusable if the survivor throws themselves at you for a DS play or even just to force the system to activate. We saw the same thing happen where tunneling someone out forced the game to consider the survivor to "not be trying" and hit with a dc penalty.
What they should do:
Hook donation system. Survivors can choose to donate their first hook stage to a shared pool that is pulled from before individual stages. Shuts off at end game
Doesn't touch player agency, doesn't affect end game. Killers can still choose to camp and tunnel, but early game will have to camp through 6 hook stages to get someone out. It becomes inefficient, and people will lose games trying, so they will do something else.
That "something else" is chase. We go back to "gens aren't worth kicking" and killers are driven to get into chase as fast as possible to get through hook stages. This is also slowdown since, instead of standing around a hook with their mouth full of teeth, they're pressuring survivors off gens. Ideally, getting more than one person on hook at a time becomes the most efficient play, while slowing down the game.
No penalties, no "detecting gameplay", not abusable by either side in any way. You're just making tunneling and camping early game less efficient, and allowing people to choose to pay more efficiently. Coincidentally, this also creates map pressure to slow down the game naturally, and allows better killer skill expression, since more hooks is at least one measure of killer skill.
That's all you have to do to change this meta. And if it impacts kill rates, we can finally talk about buffing trapper and other killers individually. Although I suspect that there will be killers at the top tier that can still perform perfectly fine with this system also.
-
@Anti051 said:
"Tunneling" became prominent in response to gen completion speeds.
Gens can be done within 4 minutes from the start of a match, and under such a strict time-crunch it doesn't make sense to get angry at killer players for trying to do something real enough to stop survivors from escaping (especially M1 killers).
You can't treat every killer character like they have the same power level of the nurse, blight or other S-tiers. All things considered from completion speed, 2nd chances, exhaustion perks and how much interconnecting safety there is, it's pretty insane to expect M1 killers to hook all survivors to death in an equitable rotation before all gens are done.
It's even more insane to basically demand plot armor and to force every character on the killer roster into a scenario that very few of them possess the mechanical ability to actually manage past the intermediate skill level. And all just because it doesn't feel like a shoulder rub when you get caught again in a killer's desperate attempt to stop your escape? You have to acknowledge the entire picture, not just your POV as a survivor.
I mean criminy! It's you and 3 other people against one dude, how can you possibly believe that you're in the right trying to act like the way you feel about your personal outcome matters more than what's fair in an asymmetrical PvP situation like DbD?
If you want to address how people feel about getting caught again, you'll also have to address the open door on ludicrous completion speed. It can't be the case that survivor keeps receiving protection boost after protection boost over and over and over again until there's no contest in the gameplay.
Tunneling" became prominent in response to gen completion speeds.
No it's not.
Tunneling is simpler to execute than it is to counter, which makes it effective more often than not against players of similar skill to the killer.
It's not a response to anything.
We've seen counter arguments to this in the live game repeatedly:
Gen kick and 3 gen metas held games hostage for an hour (until servers closed). Killers camped and tunneled more during that period also. You can't honestly say that "infinite gen time" wasn't enough.
If that wasn't enough, just about every single event disproves this also. Basically every event goes like this:
- Everyone tries out the event mechanic and goofs off, having fun with the new stuff.
- Killers realize that "survivors throwing snowballs" means they aren't on gens, and start tunneling for easy wins.
- Survivors realize that killers are just ignoring the event mechanic and sweating for wins, and the only way to prevent that is either not play the event (if possible) or just play the event as though the event mechanic doesn't even exist.
Tunneling and camping are catch up mechanics. They aren't a response to anything.
Gen rush is not a catch up mechanic, it's the only hope against hard tunneling. And you have to do it early: you cannot "resort to Gen rushing" once one person dies (you're losing the game). Killers *can* "resort to tunneling" in the end game, or even late game.
-
@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966753#Comment_3966753
If there is something to incentivise not tunnelling I'd be open to a punishment for tunnelling, so long as its a deficit in game not like a dc penalty type thing. As annoying as tunnelling is, it's a part of every competitive game ever, I remember doing it in For Honor and Battlefront to get the competitive advantage. It's always going to exist in some form, but rather than penalise it (outside of the match) its utility can be changed. By giving the killers that don't tunnel an advantage, and the ones that do tunnel a deficit which weakens its macro utility I think tunnelling could just become a tool to achieve a 1k for a desperate killer.
So for example, every time a killer hooks a unique survivor (which was not the last one hooked) the killer gains 7% haste and a 10% terror radius reduction for a minute. this helps them find the next survivor to hook. The effects ware off once the killer has found the next survivor. - But if the killer tunnels a survivor until death every gen loses 10% progress requirement (basically basekit weaving spiders that stacks).
Obviously my example is very tame and only covers a limited amount of tunnelling but I think that'd be fair for both sides while doing at least a little to dissuade it at 5 gens. Obviously any anti-tunnel should deactivate during endgame.
The system I've been pushing for years now encourages spreading hooks early, doesn't impact late game camping or tunneling ("resorting to"), and makes camping and tunneling inefficient to the point that people will naturally stop doing them.
I refer to it as hook donation. Essentially, each survivor can choose to donate their first hook stage to a shared pool that anyone can use. Make it so that you can't donate anymore after, say, 200% or less total gen progress remains on the map to prevent people just 99ing a gen.
This does several things: most importantly camping and tunneling at 5 gens goes away. The killers goal to playing efficiently is still to get one person out of the game as soon as possible, but waiting around a hook is not a good way to do that. In a hard camping/tunneling situation, the killer has to get through all 4 shared pool hook stages, then "final hook" then death hook. So 6 hook stages before anyone dies. Camping a hook for 7 minutes is a loss, and people will stop doing it when they lose games because of it.
The best way to burn through hook stages is to chase. You want to get another hook as fast as possible, ideally having multiple survivors on hook at the same time to burn through hook stages as fast as possible. This also creates map pressure naturally and slows down gens, since the killer is pushing people off of gens instead of standing near a hook waiting.
Shutting off donated his speeds up end game and doesn't impact "late game tunneling", but this kills the early game tunneling.
It also means better skill expression for the killer, since you're chasing more survivors and getting more hooks. Generally speaking, getting more hooks is an indicator of killer skill. Unfortunately, this also means people whose only skill is camping and tunneling will reject this idea outright, since many of those people refuse to learn anything else as long as these "tactics" are all they need to win.
-
I don't think there's anything wrong with infectious freight TBH. It's purpose is basically to flush out survivors lurking for a save, and it does that.
Your problem is really with excessive slugging, which I agree is an issue. Hopefully they can do something meaningful against excessive slugging in phase 2.
But, assuming they actually take meaningful action there, there's no point in changing IF since the issue should have been solved already by that point in another way.
-
@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966850#Comment_3966850
block a gen or regression on a gen.
Anything else is not a slowdown perkhttps://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966854#Comment_3966854
My biggest asset while playing killer is honestly my experience playing survivor, that helps more than any perk could.
Preach it!
block a gen or regression on a gen.
Anything else is not a slowdown perk
There are also gen/action speed reductions (thana/penti/gift of pain, dying light).
Also, incapacitation would fit this (which isn't on perks anymore, though I do occasionally see people ask for it back).
Perks designed around missing skill checks (not that they're good, but this is what they are intended to do). I suppose the missed skill check "chunk" is regression, but that's generally not what people mean.
And, without attempting to be too broad (because I agree nearly anything could be considered slowdown) you have perks that force gameplay by simply existing: weave (dropping your item in a corner is functionally similar to corrupt), and 3+ stacks of devour will shut down gen progress entirely as people go looking for it.
Most hexes fall into this category, and while "the time to cleanse the totem at the start of the game" is slowdown, that by itself isn't enough value for people to run these most of the time.
I also argue there are perks that can "speed up" gens in this same category. Things like starstruck, or lightborn discourage lurking near chase, and those perks will force survivors back onto gens instead.
-
@RizeKagune said:
If this thread question was asked here on the forums years ago everyone would say 'JuSt ApPlY pReSsUrE'
I mean, if they've only chased a survivor for 15 seconds and 3 gens have popped then what was the killer doing for at least 75 seconds? Likely longer since the survivors are now guaranteed to have to travel to be on 3 different gens.
Step 1 here should be to examine their own gameplay. And if necessary, they can run lethal. The very beginning of the match is when survivors are strongest, so if someone is wandering aimlessly, or generally just leaving the survivors alone while they examine the scenery or something, then maybe people should work on their own inefficiency in the most critical part of the match.
No one really knows what happened in the first 75 seconds of this match, but it clearly wasn't pressure. They admitted as much.
-
Almost all of these "just incentivized other play styles" suggestions simply do not work. Almost everything people suggest, including OP's, is just buffing killers and hoping they won't tunnel.
Because here's how this change would work in practice: killers will tunnel one person out, get a card (buff) on their first hook, which makes tunneling easier, and then have an easier time winning the 3v1.
We've had 3 years now of "just buff killers and we'll stop tunneling" and it hasn't worked. It won't work.
There is literally no buff that will convince people not to eliminate someone early. You'd have to think if something even more powerful than eliminating a player, which would be game breaking, and it would somehow have to be completely incompatible with tunneling.
The carrot doesn't work. Tunneling at 5 gens needs to be nerfed so that it's not "hands down, the best way to win every match, every time". Period.
-
Gen kick and 3 gen metas are literally proof that even when given game-breaking levels of slowdown, killers will camp and tunnel harder.
We're more than 3 years into this "just buff killers and people will stop tunneling" experiment. It doesn't work: the carrot doesn't work here.
-
@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964833#Comment_3964833
All I'm going to say is that I didn't cherry pick swf, I was saying that even with god meta, god validation DH in a 4 man swf survivors were still sub 50%. That's why it doesn't matter, 4 survivors on the same teamare rarely try harding. The chance people are try harding goes down as you move from 4 man to full solo queue.
Blight was busted and is still really strong, but he has the highest pick rate he's had at the least strong he's ever been. nurse has always been busted but the play rate has never been high. The point is, even when survivors was hit the balance of extremely strong and having players who give a damn and who actually are trying to win to a high degree, they still still threw, played for giggles and gave up. I can read win rates in Lol so easily, but kill rates mean nothing in this game. No matter what people are trying in league or cs or siege but in dbd 1 person in a 4 man will be trolling or they all will be, double-so for solo queue. The kate hasn't touched a gen all game and is trailing the killer with a flash light, could be a 4 man, could be solo queue but it's all too common.In a game like dbd, the 1 in the "1v4" is most likely to actually play for themselves. They are playing to win, there is no altruism. Maybe 1/10th of games a killer will troll, maybe 1 out of two games A survivor will troll in someway.
I am largely focused on perks because the buffs are to killers that are bad to mid and even then they seem to be nerfing them half the time. There has been no base-kit buffs after 6.1.0 that why I am so obviously focused on perks. They only nerfed Blight, Nurse and Wesker. Until now with P-head none of the top tier killer have been buffed. Buffing demo doesn't make "KIller" stronger. That's like saying buffing red harring to c tier is a survivor buff.
Freddy being the most deadly killer in the game only backs up what I am saying about kill rates, EVERYONE knows he's not strong. Actually feeding into him being strong means you think a beyond whatever killer is worth anything strength wise. Do you really think freddy is stronger than nurse, blight, artist and P-head? You'd have to be essentially a silver player to actually agree with that statement.
I must have missed your response here, but I'll expand:
The kate hasn't touched a gen all game and is trailing the killer with a flash light, could be a 4 man, could be solo queue but it's all too common.
Well, the game is designed this way. The game largely used to be "casual" or "party game" where, sure, people could mess around and have fun, but in the past 3 years or so has been switching over to a more "serious PvP/competitive" mindset. There's still an ongoing debate in the community as to whether this is a "casual experience ruined by hyper-competitive balance and mentality", or "a competitive PvP experience that is ruined by people who don't take it seriously."
And when I say the game is designed this way, I'm not just talking about the lack of any competitive features. In basically any other competitive PvP game, you know your teammates kit, can natively (through the game) actively communicate through voice, text, or pings, and in some games you can even see your teammates' cooldowns. Those are all lacking features in DbD, for better or worse.
But on top of all that, and separately, the game actively encourages, rewards, and incentivizes this kind of gameplay. In most games, the "daily" quests boil down to "play the game" or "win", or "complete X by trying". So you can complete those for rewards simply by doing what you would normally do: play the game. And, for killer, this is largely the case.
DbD quests for survivors are at least half the time "choose between completing this quest or winning", or "actively throw the game". The literal design of the game encourages some of this behavior.
There has been no base-kit buffs after 6.1.0 that why I am so obviously focused on perks.
Uh. This is just flat-out completely wrong. Even if, if, I accept that you're talking exclusively about things that affect all killers, it's still wrong. And maybe I haven't gone into that list in this thread, but here's why focusing on perks is completely missing the point:
Even if I limit the list to only your extremely limited, blinders-on, "it has to involve all killers or it doesn't count" viewpoint, you still have: hooks respawning, base kit kick buffed to 5%, bloodlust buffs, survivors spawning together by default, base kit lightborn on locker grabs, map offerings effectively deleted, maps made smaller, pallets and tiles weakened, tile and pallet spawn logic reworked to prevent chaining, entire maps and realms reworked.
And that just is a partial list off the top of my head, limited to things that affect "every" killer, post-6.1, because you put those artificial restrictions in place. That doesn't include the fact that they've been touching 2-4 killers individually basically every major patch to improve their kits, ranging from simple QoL buffs, to partially making add-ons base kit, to making entire Iri add-ons base kit. It also completely ignores anything nerfed on the survivor side either.
And all of that contributes to increased kill rates that have successfully been driven higher over that same time span.
Most of the time, when people focus on killer perks, it's because they don't want to look at any of those details, because regression is the only thing they desperately want. It amounts to "well, all of that is nice, and don't ever consider taking any of it away, but give back gen kick meta levels of regression or we won't be happy".
Freddy being the most deadly killer in the game only backs up what I am saying about kill rates, EVERYONE knows he's not strong. Actually feeding into him being strong means you think a beyond whatever killer is worth anything strength wise. Do you really think freddy is stronger than nurse, blight, artist and P-head? You'd have to be essentially a silver player to actually agree with that statement.
This is partly what I mean by cherry picking. I never said Freddy was "strong" or "the best", because that's all subjective. I use the wording "deadly" because we have that data: In every MMR, every rank, and every level of play, right now, Freddy is topping the kill rate stats at around 70%. And I say "deadly" also because I can recognize that isn't a complete picture, nor does it make him an easy kit to use. But the roughly 70% kill rate is hard data, and not subjective.
But for a killer who is generally considered "weak" and "M1", it's interesting that people are producing these results. There's obviously something else going on there, but it's not just a "skill issue" or "survivors aren't bothering to learn counterplay", since it's the same thing at "top MMR" also.
But if you can take a "weak" "M1" killer and kill 70% of the survivors you face, there's not really a ton of room to argue that killers are overall struggling, or in a bad place. The kill rate is an indicator, and specifically one that BHVR uses to balance. You can't just ignore it completely, and it's healthy to acknowledge that there are other factors as well.
I seriously doubt anyone who says "kill rates don't matter", because those same people would burn the forums down in the rates were reversed right now, and killers were pulling about 40% kill rates instead of 60-70%. In fact, if you continue with this line of thinking, I'll just have to assume you're perfectly ok with reducing kill rates. Y'know, since they don't matter.
-
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965687#Comment_3965687
For sure they can continue changing the game to try to make it better. Im MOSTLY talking about the idea of "we should find out WHY ppl DC instead of punishing DCing" isn't a good approach. We can do both. Ppl have proven for 9 years that no matter how many changes happen, they'll still DC, so holding off on punishment until the game gets to the perfect state of balance just means the punishment will never come.
So here's the thing:
Giving up got worse, so bad in fact that the "go next epidemic" became the phrase in the last year or so. It's not because players became more petty over time, it's because of balance changes over time.
Specifically, when the match is over in the first two minutes, why play it out? Survivors still don't have a comeback mechanic so camping and tunneling one person out early not only means a boring game as far as gameplay, but you're also likely to lose unless you "gen rushed" to try and keep up. And you might still lose even then.
And since you're going back to the beginning of the game, tunneling in particular has been a complaint longer than dead hard at this point. Remember the "dead hard had been a problem for 6 years" thing? That was 3 years ago they dealt with that (twice in fact). Tunneling is over 9 years now.
BHVR can at least try to address some if the reasons people started going next in huge numbers.
And it's not as though BHVR is blind to at least some of the problem. Camping, tunneling, and slugging changes are planned.
The real question is why were these literally secondary? Why did they not implement these changes first, and then see if "anti go next" was even necessary at all?
The answer seems to be that they listened to the loudest voices only, which, coincidentally involved punish them all. They ignored reasonable arguments (like, let's try addressing literally any of the reasons games are hopeless first), and completely ignored feedback that their punishment system they designed was massively flawed before it went live.
I can't emphasize enough that "prove to us you're playing the game every 10 seconds" was what they pushed live. And doing so was a gigantic disaster, and likely lost them a massive number of new players in the most popular chapter launch in the game's history.
So let's try the actual, reasonable take this time and do something reasonable and meaningful in phase 2.
-
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964936#Comment_3964936
Closest think to killers power, while correct, is still very far apart. Killer's power is fundamental to how they are played. Otherwise they are just trapless Trappers. A survivor is not defined by the item that they bring as items are fundamental different. They may project a role but does not pigeon hole them into that role. If you lose a toolbox your are not prevented to repair. Losing a medkit doesn't mean you cannot be healed. Dropping a flashlight does not mean you can't get away from the killer. They are tools to help the survivor. Killer's powers are the killer.
I'm not trying to say they're identical.
My entire point is that survivors do not have a perk that even functions similar to this mechanic.
The closest thing would be maybe flame turrets for xenomorph or possibly emp, but even that takes time (off gens) to collect, deploy (turret), and use.
Neither of those is even close to "equip perk, and play like normal for extra value with no additional requirement or time investment", which was my entire point.
-
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964860#Comment_3964860
The survivor equivalent is generally basekit. You can disarm bear traps and hag traps, use EMPs against singularity, antidote against nemesis, use alarm clocks against Freddy, ect.
I already addressed counter play.
The closest thing honestly would be more like xenomorph turret, where the killer power is interrupted and goes on cooldown and can't be immediately used right away.
And turrets take more than just equipping a perk and nothing else: collection, set up, and going your chase can capitalize on that prep.
And just look at how much fun killers tend to think the turret mechanic is, it's not popular. And it doesn't remove the entire power from play for the entire match, not even close, even with all of that investment.
-
@Coffee2Go said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965197#Comment_3965197
Yes true, the upcoming update will probably force the hands of BHVR to probably redesign basekit regress and gen repair speed.
But im just currently wondering if people would like these perks that generally got dropped out quickly from being meta to now not be a main pick for players including m2 killers.
I think CoB right now is generally info perk + hybrid slowdown but would end up being more optimal for it to be 175% value instead kinda between both worlds the pre nerf 200% and post nerf current 150%
Current picks are mainly Eruption, Pain Reso if im not mistaken and Pop.
Do find the rework post, since i think overcharge needs a rework indeed
the upcoming update will probably force the hands of BHVR to probably redesign basekit regress and gen repair speed
But you haven't answered what is coming up in this next patch that would even affect gen times, let alone warrant sweeping buffs to regression perks.
What makes you think any of this would be necessary at all?
-
@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964860#Comment_3964860
I don't know how you can equate those two. A killer's power vers a toolbox. Then add to that times four? How are you making this leap?
They aren't exactly equal, but items are the closest thing survivors have to a killer power.
Your build only gets 4 perks and add-ons. Survivor items are a watered down version of a killer power you can slot in, put add-ons to taste, and for that flexibility (and there are 4 of them per match) they are limited use. Usually limited by charges, or uses, depending on which items we're talking about.
But nearly every killer power is infinite use in some or all capacity, and while there may be counter play, there aren't perks that completely shut down the killer from using their power, even temporarily. That's what franklins, and to some degree weave do for items.
-
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964847#Comment_3964847
Ah, no im talking about the part of the go-next-prevention which stayed: Removing the option to suicide on hook.
Thats more effective than it sounds. If you have to wait 2 minutes to leave, you have time to calm down. Most continue playing then.
You're right, I did forget that part.
I guess I discount it a bit, just because people who really want to go next will find another way. But it does depend on the person.
-
@Evan_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964311#Comment_3964311
- Survivor Ui rework giving a lot of info
- Basekit BT
- Hook grab removal
- Anti-facecamp
- Basekit Reassurance
These are changes from the past years that affect all killers. Are you actually convinced that all these changes made the killer role easier?
So, is your only method of playing this game camping? Because the most of these are all light recommendations to please, consider not camping.
BT patch also brought the gen kick meta, so I can't honestly think you believe that counting to ten made it so much harder for killers than being able to regress gens for up to an hour.
AFC is so trivial to play around it's basically non existent.
Basekit Reassurance
Do us all a favor and either proofread a bit or just say this one out loud for me.
-
If there was even a hint that a survivor perk would do the equivalent to franklins, people would burn these forums to the ground.
Even the tamest version, which would be something like "puts the killers power on cooldown when hitting a survivor" would make people lose their minds.
Let alone "go back and pick it up so you can use it at all", or even "just go drop it in the corner to play around the perk, duh".
These are already limited use items, many with just one use at all without some heavy investment.
-
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964841#Comment_3964841
The game often feels hopeless bc people have a bad mindset. There is occasionaly the unwinnable game bc the slugging nurse got a great map, but most of the time they just thinks it hopeless and lose bc of it.
And if someone gives up, it really is pointless. Not even suiciding, doing dull totems/chests instead of gens is enough.
Now we could say thats a subjective opinion and i cant 100% prove it. But with the anti-go-next-update my escape rate jumped from 40% to 56%. No new builds, i always play solo and i didnt get suddenly extremely better after playing for 7 years.
So for an always solo player like me the go-next-prevention was great.
I mean, the go next was turned off within days of the patch launching because it was so flawed. So unless you're talking about the first 3 days or so, those metrics aren't impacted by "go next".
And just to make sure we're taking about the same thing, I'm referring to the disconnect penalty for the "game detecting giving up".
That was causing false positives, especially for brand new players who know nothing about the game. There was a post on the forums here with a clip from a streamer who is fairly popular from other content, and was trying DbD for the first time. He was brand new. He wasn't playing well, taking to chat, so distracted, but trying to have fun in a new game. He got hit with a "you were trying to throw" warning. For playing the game poorly.
Now, you might be seeing an impact in your metrics from the afk crows update. That was eventually tuned down as well after a couple weeks, but could have had that impact on your escape rate.
But the crows change launched with basically "do gens or the killer will get your location for free", so I'm honestly not surprised that literally punishing players for not touching a gen might lead to more escapes. Hard punishing players for valid side objective like, say, doing quests and seeing an uptick in escaping more seems like a pretty obvious result.
The crows system also had a bunch of false positives, because the game can't actually detect if you're "playing" based on circumstance either. Both of these are highly flawed systems that, honestly, should never have gone live in the state they did.
-
@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964209#Comment_3964209
Survivors have been quitting for years. Killers have been getting stuff but not what they wanted, that's just troll. Kill rate is genuinely irrelevant, couldn't be a more worthless stat in this game. The kill rate during prime DH, IW, UB and CoH meta was 48% in a swf, survivors simply don't play to win. Killers have so many unfun way to destroy survivors but that doesn't mean as much as survivors running it down 3 gens down to save one dude, killing the entire team, at ANY mmr.
Killer peaked in 6.1.0 strength wise.
Saying killer get buffed every patch is hilarious, 0 of the best killer perks are at their peak strength right now. Clown just got gutted.
While killer is stronger than it was in 2021 objectively, it won't generally get stronger for the better part of a year and you'll still say this. Survivor will get the +10 on hook but who cares, PR, every gen kick perk and every gen kick killer getting nerfed doesn't change anything. Nurse gets add-ons nerfed, skull merchant killed, blight add-ons are way worse and hug tech removed. Base kit BT is insane, Skull merchant deleted, ghoul is removed from high tier less than a month after release although he is terrible to play against.
Survivors have been complaining in the exact same way you worded this comment since I started playing in summer 2021, Kill rates mean absolutely nothing, player hours mean nothing.
It might seem like I am a killer main, survivor hater in the way I worded this but that's not the case. I despise how killers play like bots just like how I despised how survivors played like bots up until 6.1.0.
Other than 6.1.0, it's been a HARD give and take on both sides other than a couple exceptions. Now survivors are finally getting a super favored patch so rejoice.
I genuinely don't think people understand how much lower kill rates would be if survivors played to win, but that's not what happens. 3 gens will be done and 3 people will start playing around the killer to save a person about to go on second hook, losing the entire game. That's 15% of all games right there. I don't think killer is weak whatsoever but people use false numbers to judge survivor when it means absolutely nothing.
People still lump "killers" into a group like they have been collectively buffed at all since 6.1.0 and the top end has only been nerfed even if still oppressive. Blight isn't freddy, blight isn't Phead.
Oh I missed one point I usually address:
Survivors have been quitting for years
Yup. Petty people have always existed, and quit for whatever reason.
The question is "why did it get worse?" Why did it go from occasionally to a "go next epidemic". People have not become more petty over time.
The reasons are balance related. When survivors lose hope that the game is winnable early on then the natural reaction is to try again, literally: better luck next match.
Getting tunneled out first, or even just having your teammate get tunneled out early means a lost game, go next. When those issues aren't addressed, then people give up. And with the buffs I was taking about, excessive tunneling, camping, and even slugging have gotten easier also.
It's why the "anti go next" and "crow updates" should've been after phase 2. Let's fix some of the reasons that games feel hopeless and then see what needs tweaking.
Instead, the devs listened to the loudest voices screaming "punish them" and just shoved out a half baked, not at all thought through, mechanic that lost them a metric ton of new players with the fnaf release.
-
@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964209#Comment_3964209
Survivors have been quitting for years. Killers have been getting stuff but not what they wanted, that's just troll. Kill rate is genuinely irrelevant, couldn't be a more worthless stat in this game. The kill rate during prime DH, IW, UB and CoH meta was 48% in a swf, survivors simply don't play to win. Killers have so many unfun way to destroy survivors but that doesn't mean as much as survivors running it down 3 gens down to save one dude, killing the entire team, at ANY mmr.
Killer peaked in 6.1.0 strength wise.
Saying killer get buffed every patch is hilarious, 0 of the best killer perks are at their peak strength right now. Clown just got gutted.
While killer is stronger than it was in 2021 objectively, it won't generally get stronger for the better part of a year and you'll still say this. Survivor will get the +10 on hook but who cares, PR, every gen kick perk and every gen kick killer getting nerfed doesn't change anything. Nurse gets add-ons nerfed, skull merchant killed, blight add-ons are way worse and hug tech removed. Base kit BT is insane, Skull merchant deleted, ghoul is removed from high tier less than a month after release although he is terrible to play against.
Survivors have been complaining in the exact same way you worded this comment since I started playing in summer 2021, Kill rates mean absolutely nothing, player hours mean nothing.
It might seem like I am a killer main, survivor hater in the way I worded this but that's not the case. I despise how killers play like bots just like how I despised how survivors played like bots up until 6.1.0.
Other than 6.1.0, it's been a HARD give and take on both sides other than a couple exceptions. Now survivors are finally getting a super favored patch so rejoice.
I genuinely don't think people understand how much lower kill rates would be if survivors played to win, but that's not what happens. 3 gens will be done and 3 people will start playing around the killer to save a person about to go on second hook, losing the entire game. That's 15% of all games right there. I don't think killer is weak whatsoever but people use false numbers to judge survivor when it means absolutely nothing.
People still lump "killers" into a group like they have been collectively buffed at all since 6.1.0 and the top end has only been nerfed even if still oppressive. Blight isn't freddy, blight isn't Phead.
So there's a lot to unpack here, but I'll try to speak to as much as I can.
Kill rate is genuinely irrelevant, couldn't be a more worthless stat in this game. The kill rate during prime DH, IW, UB and CoH meta was 48% in a swf
I feel like this is the core problem with why we disagree here, because this meta was before 6.1. your also cherry picking SWF, but actually that doesn't matter anymore.
These are the most recent escape rates, so overall that number has gone up a lot. SWF in particular is now at about a 60% kill rate overall. So yes, balance has changed, and absolutely in the killers favor.
And I doubt you'd be saying "kill rates don't matter" if it was flipped and kill rates were around 40% instead of escape rates.
Killer peaked in 6.1.0 strength wise.
Saying killer get buffed every patch is hilarious, 0 of the best killer perks are at their peak strength right now. Clown just got gutted.
If you're only looking at perks, which you seem to be focused on, then yes... The gen kick and 3 gen metas were the strongest we've ever seen in the game. And it was so wildly overpowered that people could hold the game hostage for an hour and win by attrition that way. It was also one of the most completely broken things they've ever had in the game and is a travesty that it took a year for them to address.
I say killer has been buffed every patch, since it's basically true. In the 3 years since 6.1.0, there has been one, maybe 2 patches total that didn't include some form of buff for killers in general, or specific killers, or even just base kit mechanics.
There are people like you that hard focus on just the meta perks, and basically unless they're hard buffing regression then it doesn't matter to you.
But the buffs they've been handing out are specifically and intentionally to increase the kill rates over the years, and it's demonstrably worked. (This is also, I suspect, related to why you don't think kill rates should count, since it hard counters this idea that killer role generally is eating just fine right now). Changes to maps, tiles, weakening pallets, increasing dead zones, and map RNG happen relatively often even though it doesn't reach the patch notes usually unless there's a specific map rework. Base kit hooks respawn, instant regression on kick (twice), and nearly every major patch has had 2-4 killers specifically listed with buffs ranging from QOL improvements to entire IRI add-ons made base kit.
Nurse gets add-ons nerfed, skull merchant killed, blight add-ons are way worse and hug tech removed. Base kit BT is insane, Skull merchant deleted, ghoul is removed from high tier less than a month after release although he is terrible to play against.
Yes, there have been some balance changes, and personally I don't like how they handled SM either. But complaining about them nerfing nurse, who is still S tier, top 2 killers in the game is a weird focus. They announced like 4 years ago that hug tech was a bug, and it took them over two years to fix. That wasn't a surprise at all. Ghoul is still a high tier killer as well, so I'm not sure what you're upset about with this one.
Looking at the three of the top, I'm guessing 5, killers in the entire game and clutching pearls because they had minor changes or even bug fixes that still leave them in the top 5 isn't really making your case for you here.
It might seem like I am a killer main, survivor hater in the way I worded this but that's not the case. I despise how killers play like bots just like how I despised how survivors played like bots up until 6.1.0.
It does because you're so hard focused on regression for killers (and this weird "kill rates don't matter stance"… dying a lot more often certainly matters if you play survivor for any reasonable amount of time and you don't just dismiss that fact.) It's also because, despite you starting in 2021, you're complaining about base kit BT… and you should know exactly why that was a necessary and good change to the game. Especially since 6.1 also brought about the change to endurance where hitting BT off hook literally disables a host of anti-tunnel perks for the killer.
Because IMO, killers played more like bots right after 6.1. Specifically the gen kick and 3 gen metas were PvE gen kick simulator, where killers dropped chase, kicked a gen, hit me, ran away. There was a song about that exact phrase because killers would spend the entire match kicking gens instead of interacting with the survivors (you know, the PvP).
And that "strategy" won games. It won a lot of games, and had the added "bonus" to a lot of killers that it was so broken and non-interactive that it was exceedingly frustrating for survivors. I personally stopped playing survivor for at least a year and a half after a few months of that meta.
Killers have been getting stuff but not what they wanted
Killers have largely gotten what they asked for, but not what they wanted. Generally speaking, killers want to go back to the 6.1 days where they could play like a bot, and win a largely PvE game experience. But pretending like most survivor changes haven't been catered to exactly the killer's demands here is laughable.
prime DH, IW, UB and CoH meta
You pick it out yourself, and choose a meta where perks were largely nerfed by killer request (except UB). DH (twice), DS, IW, CoH, medkits, toolboxes, BNP, MfT, Haddonfield, basically every corn map (not just cowshed), Eyrie, GoJ, even hatch, and I'm certain I'm missing some because it's been 3 years now. Oh, and the recent "just push it live" punish them all "Go Next" system that was grossly overtuned. All by killer demand.
What killers apparently want, however, is gen kick meta back. That's all that matters is regression. Oh, absolutely keep all the buffs to everything else, including core game elements in the meantime, but give back infinite time to win the game by default after an hour. That's a must, apparently.
Blight isn't freddy
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. What exactly are you trying to say here? Freddy is the most deadly killer in the game currently after the most recent rework. And, I'm sorry, but the "it's a skill issue" argument doesn't hold water, since he's #1 across the board with overall and high MMR.
Pick trapper, pick clown. There are killers who could use some help.
And regarding clown, I'm sorry but this is part 2 of the MfT fallout. Killers complained for 6 months about 3% haste "lOsInG tHeM gAMeS" and the devs nerfed it for them. And now, because that group also convinced the devs that haste was a problem, they're addressing haste overall. Clown is collateral damage to that.
Strangely, now, things like haste stacking and clown bottles (more than 3%) are suddenly "necessary' and reasonable… now that MfT is dead. Which, I forgot to add, that while MfT was nerfed by demand, in the same breath the haste stacking changes were pulled back also by killer demand. Again, this is killers getting what they ask for but not what they wanted (which, in this case, is haste and haste stacking for the killer, but not for survivors).
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964656#Comment_3964656
You actually will and it actually happened often enough that the developers had to step in and do something about it.Past tense. Happened. Are you are claiming that the abandon changes didn't address this for survivors even slightly? Nevermind, don't even bother responding. You're either unable to understand what I'm saying, or you're just dishonest. Either way, there's nothing to be gained for either of us.
Past tense. Happened. Are you are claiming that the abandon changes didn't address this for survivors even slightly
I'm just going to point out that the abandon feature with regard to slugging is only in one, very specific scenario where all survivors are slugged or dead.
The abandon feature is not available in what is probably the most common form of slugging, which is slugging for the 4k, because one survivor is still standing. And that's just one common example.
So does the abandon feature address the concern "even slightly"? Yes, in very specific circumstances (which are, coincidentally, basically within the killers control).
Does this still happen, present tense? Absolutely.
-
@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964205#Comment_3964205
You can't really pressure 4 people at once as single Killer. Unless you're completely dominating all the chase, there'll always be someone on gen.
1 on hook
1 go for rescue/healing
1 occupies killer in chase
1 repairing gen.
This is why tunnelling is extremely effective, since it removes one person from the game, leaving no one repairing gen, meaning you have all the time in the world to kill the rest of survivors. This is the BIGGEST pressure Killer can apply.
You can't really pressure 4 people at once as single Killer. Unless you're completely dominating all the chase, there'll always be someone on gen.
I mean, you certainly can. And they've made chase so much simpler over the years that it's not even as hard as it used to be. I will readily admit that it's not easy, and requires you to be efficient at all aspects of killer: not just chase, but game sense, game knowledge, situational awareness, information, and effective use of your kit.
You're entirely correct with 1 in chase, 1 on hook, 1 going for rescue/recovery, and 1 on a gen. That's what effective map pressure looks like.
But compare that to hard camping and tunneling: one on hook, 2 on gens and 1 who can likely greed gen progress before going for rescue. So until you get that first person out, you're leaving the rest of the team largely to their own devices and they can do whatever they want.
If they are efficient, playing with experience, and even remotely coordinated (which doesn't necessarily mean SWF), they will use their time to "gen rush".
Which is why we see so many "gens fly" complaints. Because instead of having map pressure (and utilizing a wide variety of skills) and only 1 person on gens, people take a risk of using RNG and chase skill only to race 2-3 survivors. If you got lucky and found the weak link, and can get 3 hooks before the survivors finish about 4 gens, then you win. It's a simple formula, but doesn't rely on nearly as much mastery of the killer role.
To bring this back to what I said before: gens aren't the goal, and it's a resource the killer can spend. If you are just allowing the survivors to do whatever they want, then your only method of slowing down the game is things like slowdown perks or base kit abilities.
But map pressure by itself is already a huge amount of slowdown. Instead of 2-3 on gens, you have at most 1. maybe 0 if you can get a quick enough down to have 2 on hook, where the game is forced to stop for recovery.
That's at least 50% slowdown, maybe 67-100% depending on what circumstance we're comparing.
And even with the power of tunneling, if you aren't efficient at the chase part, you can still lose, and you basically have nothing to fall back on except screaming at the devs to buff you.
-
Yeah the bp bonus should've been made base kit long ago. Same with WGLF and prove bonuses.
They didn't want it to define perk choice to get more BP, but this solution still allows that.
I would change it though to just disable the bonus progressing once one survivor dies. You can tunnel and basically get nothing, or spread hooks for better bp gain.
There are too many loop holes to "don't hook someone twice in a row" that would defeat the point. For example, tunnel one person out in 3 hooks (0%), then spread hooks evenly during cleanup and you still get 75% and still get to hard tunnel. Just turning it off when someone dies would likely be 25% in that case.
-
@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3964134#Comment_3964134
and yet survivors are the ones who rage quitting 10 seconds into the game….hm makes u wonder….
I'm not sure this is the "slam dunk" argument you think it is.
The devs have basically given killers everything they ask for for 3 years now. The only exception being gen kick meta levels of regression.
You can see that in the kill rates, the patch notes, the 60% target, and the devs literal words that they want the game to be unbalanced in the killers favor by design.
So what is there to wonder about when killers get buffed every patch for years to the point that their opponents literally didn't want to play unwinnable games anymore.
Survivors are complaining that the game isn't fun and being ignored, with some people burning out and giving up. Killers are getting buffed and instantly move the goal post to the next "big problem" because complaining has given them nearly everything they demand for years.
-
There's one more component to macro that's missing here, which is related to strategy, but not identical. Essentially: how are you occupying the survivors' time during the match? How are you keeping them busy?
Effectively, pressure.
And although there are, unfortunately, a lot of people who think this is "pressuring gens", it's not. It's pressuring the survivors. The gens aren't the killers objective. At best, gens are an expendable resource for the killer, like health states or even hook states for survivors.
Which is the main reason the devs have spent 2 years buffing chase and nerfing maps. Reduced chase times, means more time you can spend pressuring survivors.
Also unfortunately, most killers use this feature to save time in chase with one survivor, to simply waste that time standing around a hook to tunnel them out, or camping because they can't find anyone else (or can't be bothered to look for anyone else).
-
@CrypticGirl said:
Killers do have catch-up mechanics. Less gens to patrol, less pallets for Survivors to use, and those "un-fun" strategies such as tunneling, camping, or slugging. On top of all that, they have perks that can easily turn a game around, like Devour Hope, or dedicated endgame perks like Terminus, No Way Out, Remember Me, or NOED. Heck, yesterday I faced a Ghostface who only had one hook when we busted out the gens, but thanks to NOED, the match ended in a 3k, and me feeling awful about leaving everyone else to die on first or second hook.
Meanwhile, if Survivors have a bad start, they just can't recover. The Killer essentially wins the game by only completing half of their objective.
Unfortunately not even half sometimes. Hard tunneling the first survivor basically makes the game a race to see if the survivors can finish 3 or 4 gens before the killer gets 3 hooks.
If they can't get 3 gens done, the killer basically wins the game. If they can get 3-4 gens done, there's still a chance the killer wins the game.
The only way anyone is escaping if 3+ gens are left when the first survivor dies, is if the killer consciously chooses to allow hatch to come into play (most won't), or if the killer severely misplays repeatedly or stops playing entirely (like afk or disconnection).
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961854#Comment_3961854
C.O.N.T.E.N.T. C.R.E.A.T.O.R.S.
Look, I know you've been caught out with a horrible bias and an inconsistent stance, but even falling back on this "cOnTeNt CrEaToRs" thing isn't making it any better for you. Especially since you've been asked at least twice by two different people "exactly what makes the distinction if it's being recorded/broadcast or not" and appear to have no answer.
But since you've fallen on this sword, let's put the nail in this coffin you've built yourself, and dug the hole for yourself as well.
There's literally nothing about this particular case from this thread that you can use to say one way or the other that this killer isn't also some TTV, or otherwise content creator. It's forum rules not to name and shame, and the names are blocked for that reason.
So, for all you know, this killer IS a content creator. From everyone else's perspective it doesn't matter: toxicity is toxicity.
But you never bothered to ask (because truly it doesn't matter to you either). All that matters to you is that they're a killer. And therefore, can do no wrong, at least in your eyes.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961833#Comment_3961833
This is talking about content creators specifically. But good job taking it out of context.
Also if you find something i posted years ago that is something i may or may not believe anymore that also won't help you much.
Last September. And, for the record, this is literally like the 5th result on these forums when I just search your username. I didn't "hunt for this". This is your stance.
Also, since you're hard set on this behavior just being "playing the game" as you've forcefully defended several times now… why would a stream or video of playing the game be a problem? Are you just against DbD content? How bizarre.
(Hint: it's because it's toxic behavior that shouldn't be celebrated, lauded, or elevated. Especially not put on display for people to reproduce or replicate. But you've backed yourself into a corner where you can't actually say that generally right now. You are actually of the opinion, right now, that survivors are toxic, but killers can't be. That's ridiculous, and you know it.)
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961803#Comment_3961803
I don't understand why you all keep thinking you are gonna "get me" because of "gen rushing" or "teabagging at the gates"
I don't think those things are good at the game, but i don't blame survivors for doing them.
Also, no its not, in Street Fighter again, if i know my opponent mains Zangief, and i know that Sagat has an amazingly good matchup against him (a 7-3 usually) i might counterpick him by playing Sagat. This is all part of the game. It doesn't make me toxic for counter picking them because i know they only play Zangief.
This you?
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792527#Comment_3792527
These groups do exist and constantly release content on youtube laughing at killers who they make DC.
Because, apparently, you do understand that toxicity occurs and can be problematic. At least when survivors do it. Which was my point.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961758#Comment_3961758
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3961764#Comment_3961764
Let me put it this way.
If i'm playing say, street fighter, and playing against my opponent, and i find out that my opponent is really bad at dealing with throws. And so i throw them 10 times in a row. Some might call that "cheap" some might say its "unfair" some might say i'm "spamming" or "being toxic". But is it really? The point is, what if slugging all 4 survivors, what if throwing 10 times in a row, what if throwing 100 fireballs in a row is strategically the thing that optimizes my chances for winning?
What if, as a killer, i see that my opponents are really bad at dealing with being slugged. Maybe i realize they didn't bring perks to counter it, maybe i realized that they just don't know how to counter the strategy. Why would i not do that thing? Why would i play a game that is about winning and losing in a way that makes it so i have less of a chance of winning, if winning is what my goal is?
Now maybe someone might have a goal that is different from winning or losing, sure, that is entirely possible. But someone might have that goal. If they do, who are you to say how they should work toward achieveing that victory?
Thinking that person is toxic, is a "Scrub" mindset. Not the word "scrub" as an insult, but as a description. I suggest reading the free e-book by game designer David Sirlin, Playing to Win:
Here is an excerpt from that book:
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
Everything you just said can also be applied to "gen rushing". Maybe killers are just bad at applying pressure.
I'm guessing there's some special circumstance in your mind where that doesn't apply.
This is just the hockey analogy all over again, btw. Even if I agreed here, which I don't, taking a symmetric game and trying to apply those ideas to an asymmetric doesn't hold up.
There's no "power role" in street fighter. There's no default game mode where only one player can take damage and the other is immune.
Even in symmetric games, it's generally considered at least poor sportsmanship to take advantage of power imbalance, even when that balance isn't just handed out by the devs like it is in DbD. Smurfing in any game is generally considered BM (or in DbD terms "toxic"). Shoot, even DbD has had issues in the past with people deranking to stomp new players.
There's basically nothing to support you here. Not even past DbD, which is where your arguments fall the hardest. And I genuinely doubt that you'd be ok with reverting, say, dead hard for distance, balanced landing, mettle of man, and circle of healing, just as a few examples, and just chalk it up to "skill issue" if people can't handle it. Please.
-
People have been asking them to "address slugging for the 4k" since they changed hatch, and their most recent responses to this have been:
Ignore it, by the abandon feature that doesn't do anything when one survivor is still standing.
Or incentivized the killer to do it, both by expanding the base kit Mori in this situation, and by buffing afk crows so that the last survivor standing is all but guaranteed to give their position away (3 minutes) before bleed out (4 minutes).
-
@CrossTheSholf said:
So yeah, it's entitlement mentality.
"We should be able to do or inflate kill rates so killers I don't like get nuked"
That's the essence of what you said. Skull merchant 2.0 was fine but survivors wanted to keep whining until she was executed so nobody plays her. And there are people on this forum who explicitly said they want the same to happen to Ghoul. It's fully entitlement on survivors part.
So, while I don't agree with op on that any point here, trying to say that "disconnects inflate kill rates" is just wrong.
Games with any disconnect have never been counted at all in kill rates, so disconnecting (while you shouldn't do it) doesn't impact kill rates at all.
Oddly though, since most of these people who want to get out of a game will find a way to do so, regardless. Now, instead of those players causing the game to be thrown out (by disconnecting), they will still give up, and die, which is what inflates the kill rate.
So, strictly speaking, removing or heavily penalizing disconnects is what actually "inflates the kill rate". You have that part exactly backwards.
-
Stridor is a free perk on nurse that does exactly what you want here. It stacks multiplicatively, so even a survivor using iron will still has 50% volume.
-
@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3959239#Comment_3959239
I disagree, the way MMR is, absolutely does punish you for winning too much. It effectively discourages you from getting better because all you get for improving is more sweaty rounds, and eventually challenges you genuinely can't handle unless you're amazing at the game. Most people aren't Ayrun or Knightlight, most people aren't even Spookyloopz or Otzdarva. Most people aren't top tier Nurse and Blight mains or 4 manning in a SWF Team Six, most people just want their games to be a fair shake and to not be totally stomped with a 4k at 5 gens or a 4 man out after 4 minutes.
And as you touch on here, the real problem with the system we have now is that the best players are absolutely not rising to the top to congregate with the other best players. They're getting completely screwed over by randoms who get lumped in with them somehow, or getting a mix of baby team followed by strong team rinse repeat. Good Survivors are not getting strong Killers that challenge them; good Killers are ONLY ever getting babies or super strong teams meaning they feel they have to play the strongest Killers in the pack all the time. Neither feels fun, both trap these players in MMR Hell - high MMR for Killers who do well, low MMR for Survivors who get shafted by their team. The fundamental issue is that MMR as given here, only cares if you 3-4k or Escape. That's it. There is no measure for how well you play as a team, or how good you are at your Killer's kit, or how well you do at gamesense. This means a good Ghostface can end up facing teams better handled by a Blight and then they cannot escape to a more suitable range for that Killer because MMR doesn't degrade, or a good Survivor could get stomped too hard by a 4-slowdown Plague or Springtrap and end up being stuck in a loop of endless worse Survivor teammates dragging them down into low ranks.
Plus, it makes winning the round seem like the end all be all of the game… and not only is that not remotely true, the game isn't even designed for that level of sweat.
This is why MMR seems screwy. It never counts if you're actually good and skilled, it only cares about how much you win or lose. That, and it breaks when not enough people are online on one role. It needs to be addressed if we truly want a 60/40 split as intended.I mean, this is mostly just complaining about how MMR functions. If you win more than you lose, you get harder opponents because the system is designed that way. And, for the record, this is how the old "grades" system worked also.
Having a system that makes your games easier as you continue to win is not how MMR works at all, and isn't how any matchmaking system functions. Making games easier by winning just means the opposite is true for your opponent: that losing makes games harder. And as much as (some) people would love to never have to lose a game ever again, and don't give a ######### about anyone else, a system that does this would actually kill the game.
Your real issue is the 60% kill rate that creates the imbalance. The kill rate alone means that killers are effectively always going up against survivors who are more skilled than they are. This is why people claim they have to sweat every game, and are "forced" to play in a certain way to keep up, because the game has been skewed to make kills easier (which in turn will eventually result in making the games harder for the killer).
This is actually pretty easy to demonstrate too. If you start with 5 players who are exactly the same skill level (let's say 1000, just to put a number to it), and have them play each other, then the 60% kill rate is going to have the killer player win more often, and the survivors lose more often. So even though they're the same skill level, over time the killer will gain MMR and the survivors lose MMR. And this happens across the board.
So at some point, the killer will hit a point where the matchmaker is convinced that they are actually better than these survivors, and needs to match them with a higher ranked team. Maybe the killer has hit 1200 MMR, and the survivor team 800 now. But keep in mind, these players are still all the same skill level, just that the game is slanted toward the survivors dying more often by design. Other factors, such as gen kick meta not being addressed for a full year, can make this imbalance happen faster or to a greater degree (i.e. boosting the killer's MMR higher than it should be).
So what happens next is the matchmaker decides to match the killer with survivors who are also 1200MMR. But those survivors went through a similar process of being matched at 1400, losing more than they win, and are now 1200 for the same reason of the almighty kill rate.
And that is one of the main failures of the current system: that an "average" (1000 in this example) killer is now being matched with above average survivors (1400) because the kill rate target has forced it to happen, not because of MMR itself.
And the "solutions" people scream about to "solve" this issue will only make it worse. Many people want killer buffs or survivor nerfs, which will only (temporarily) cause killers to kill more, and as a result boost their MMR higher (deflating survivors MMR lower as well), and then we have a 1000 killer going against 1500 survivors, all of whom are considered "1250" now by the system, because "balance" has forced it that way.
That is why people think the game is sweaty, unfun, or they "hAvE tO" tunnel and camp every game. They're in over their head, and can't actually compete, and many of these people have not learned anything in the process. They think they're Max MMR gods at the game, because they're struggling every match, but in reality there are a lot of people who are simply below average killers, going up against average survivors.
Game imbalance has carried them to a point where they can't figure out how to function. And rather than learning anything, or improving in any way, many just come to the forums and demand more killer buffs or survivor nerfs because it will temporarily win them more games. But in the long run, they are just boosting their MMR higher, and getting more frustrating games in the end, and the cycle continues. Been going on for at least 3 years now, and apparently will continue to for the foreseeable future.
-
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957716#Comment_3957716
Let's break down this clip... I thought it was PAINFULLY obvious, but apparently I need to spell it out since you are still thinking the only thing here is a funny bar.
The reason the survivor didnt get off ASAP was to hold off having another chase as long as possible. If their teammate came for an unhook, it would've turned into a trade, followed by a chase of the guy who just got off hook... Instead, he stayed on hook for the time being so his teammate could finish the last gen and get the door. He still has about 30 seconds he can wait before he unhook himself. Doing it THIS way gives a chance for both remaining survivors to escape, either booking it to an open gate or grabbing hatch.
So here's the thing. I get that the bar is yellow. Fantastic. They've created a system that makes a progress bar go yellow when the kill is face camping. Wonderful.
Since it was an edit, you seem to have missed this:
What, exactly, is choosing to stay on hook doing that not having AFC at all accomplishes? Both with it without it are "wasting the killers time" because they're standing at the hook, in this case hitting someone repeatedly.
And if jumping off hook into face camping is the wrong play then this mechanic is not just bad at combatting face camping, it's making the situation actively worse for survivors who choose to jump off here.
I keep going back to "what does this do", and, for two years now, the answer is "it's anti-FACE camping" and the result is that the killer has to stand farther away from the hook, eventually. It doesn't stop face camping for at least 20 seconds, and if the killer backs up slightly farther away they can circumvent it entirely. The barest minimum of effects on the player's behavior.
It isn't solving that survivors are trading in that scenario, it isn't solving that killers can still stand at the hook and do nothing (especially since proxying is generally more effective than face camping anyway), and it isn't generating gameplay since the killer is still effectively afk but in a slightly different spot. It's not solving those issues, and apparently it wasn't trying to.
The only thing, we've been told, that this AFC mechanic actually does, is combat and punish FACE camping.
But it doesn't. And demonstrably so.
And maybe it's just not working as intended, or bugged, but that's not the argument I'm getting from you, it's that it is doing what it's supposed to. I think we're both in agreement that the mechanic isn't bugged, but when I can show that it isn't working in its intended, only purpose, then there's this argument that occurs that somehow "it's working, bro. trust."
So the end result then is that the mechanic is meaningless, since I'm saying right now that having this in a face camp scenario apparently means that using it is the wrong play. The player on hook should act as though it doesn't exist to get maximal value, using it is a detriment. Which, in other words means: the killer cannot misplay around this mechanic, facecamping, or not, is a win-win for the killer who has decided to stay at the hook.
The biggest indicator to me that this mechanic is insufficient is the community reaction. There are always at least some killers on this forum at least who will decry every change in the game. Yet as soon as AFC released, people realized that this isn't an effective or meaningful mechanic. No one complained after launch, because it's trivial. And the only thing we've seen for two years now, is "it's not anti-camp, it's anti-FACE camp" with a zillion upvotes. Which is generally intended to mean "of course the mechanic does nothing, it's not supposed to, and don't change it because it's fine if it does nothing".
And yet, when I point out that "hey, this mechanic seems to do effectively nothing", I get a flurry of pushback and downvotes because those same people do not want a mechanic that actually deters camping, or FACE camping in any way. If there's one constant on these forums, it's that (for some people) you simply cannot make any change that might impact how killers play in a meaningful way.
-
@Chiky said:
same with that extremely ######### perk that breaks pallets if they vault them after you hit them... It's already an awful perk, and it tells the survivor that you have it so they can not vault anything... It's absolute trash
Because you're misunderstanding the perk's purpose. The point is to be a zoning tool, not "a wireless pallet break". And it fulfills the role of "zoning tool" decently well.
@WalanAke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957762#Comment_3957762
Yeah, it's even got a short delay before it even activates and is able to break the pallet, why does it need to warn then??
Because in addition to "this isn't a wireless pallet break" perk, the way it's worded is on any injury.
So, a survivor can step in a trap across the map, nowhere near the killer, and trigger the perk. But then the survivor in chase would be the one affected by the pallet break debuff. Or the person lurking for a flashlight save or a teamwork perk.
Same thing can happen with any health state loss where the killer doesn't have to be present, which isn't a ton, but they definitely exist. That would be nearly impossible to distinguish between a bug or hacks at that point.
This is identical and consistent across every player debuff in the game. No one ever says that something like boil over shouldn't notify the killer it's in play, even though clearly the perk would do a lot more if they removed that feature. (Coincidentally, this also forces changed behavior)
Dissolution already changes the players behavior and makes the pallet useless without breaking it, mainly because of the debuff notification.
-
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957528#Comment_3957528
You picked the 1 clip where the effect is actually working... but somehow twist it to claim its useless because you didnt see the survivor unhook themselves in the 40 second clip. I have no idea what you want...
So, what exactly do you expect this mechanic to do?
It clearly isn't stopping or functionally deterring face camping, it isn't addressing camping in any way, and it isn't addressing any of the issues surrounding it. If killers are able to hit you in hook for half a minute with the mechanic in place, then what exactly is this actually accomplishing?
Instead of speaking to *any* of the reasons I have why I think this is useless, we're now just dismissing it outright.
Apparently, what I should expect is a full "progress bar" that you can't effectively use. Because that's what it feels like you're saying is the "value" here.
-
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957517#Comment_3957517
The survivor at any time can choose to get off the hook, which is what face camping was preventing before. Its a short clip, so we dont get to see when they no doubt did just that.
This is why I say this mechanic is useless:
Others are likely to show up anyway and provide that free pressure and maybe even a down. It's not preventing that. You're basically still trading.
It's not preventing the killer from hitting on hook, because it's better to stay on hook.
So, to summarize:
If the killer backs away 5 feet, the mechanic does nothing because it's "not anti camp, is anti FACE camp".
If the killer doesn't back away and actually face camps, the best play is to pretend like the mechanic doesn't exist and you'll get the same result.
If the killer face camps and your teammate shows up, then it's also like the mechanic doesn't exist, since the killer has already gotten pressure off of gens, and will probably get the trade.
And on top of that, every killer in the game can stand 11m from hook and still beat a survivor who shows up for rescue to the hook, which is the exact same scenario as the one above.
So it's not anti camp, and it's not anti FACE camp. It's apparently so niche a problem were "solving" that, regardless of how the killer or other players play, the best play for the hooked survivor to stay on the hook.
So yeah. Astonishing levels of value.
-
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957393#Comment_3957393
I feel like your missing an important detail with that clip. The bar is full... that survivor can hop off the hook any time they want there. It looks like they were trying to hold off on doing that so they could buy their teammate more time.
That doesn't make it better, it actively makes it worse.
If the mechanic is active and it's still countered by checks notes FACE camping, then it's still really not doing what it's supposed to.
ETA: I'll elaborate here... What, exactly, is choosing to stay on hook doing that not having AFC at all accomplishes? Both with it without it are "wasting the killers time" because they're standing at the hook, in this case hitting someone repeatedly.
And if jumping off hook into face camping is the wrong play then this mechanic is not just bad at combatting face camping, it's making the situation actively worse for survivors who choose to jump off here.
-
Here:
@jayoshi said:
Had a Trickster tunnel me and my friend and kept hitting us on hook. We both have pride charms. That doesn't mean anything, I know. However when it was just me and the bot, he kept hitting me over and over while looking at my charms and then shaking his head at me. Then he would throw a knife at my charm, then shake his head. I have it recorded and I'll post it here. Am I wasting the staff's time submitting this as a report
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uufNkiVRkLI
?
This is a video from a few days ago. The survivor is already on hook when the video starts, the killer is actively hitting them on hook for the 30s duration.
There is one gen remaining (so not end game, the mechanic is still active). And yet, the AFC does nothing.
This is FACE camping. Period.
The mechanic is useless. And it's useless for is intended purpose.
-
@SpringMyTrap said:
before match no, but after the match I genuinely dont see a single valid reason not to.
people should know why they lost and if coordinated plays had to do anything with that.
While I don't think I'd be opposed to showing it on the end screen, it would be more enlightening for people who think they're against "the comp SWF" every match to see that they're actually just against non grouped survivors who know the game.
people should know why they lost and if coordinated plays had to do anything with that.
If there's one thing that killers need most in 2025 it's to examine their own gameplay. People do not need another scapegoat to excuse that they're taking 4 minutes to close out their first chase, yet blaming everything else other than things entirely within their control (build, priority, game sense, game knowledge, and which tools to use and when are the biggest ones people seem to struggle with).
-
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956803#Comment_3956803
There is no confusion.
You're mostly talking about Judith's Tombstone in your post. I am talking about Tombstone Piece. Also yeah, funny you mention survivors having to play around it - you know how they do that? By giving Myers a hook for free.
Any myers who is mega tryharding will use it 100%, there is no reason not to. Being able to bypass all hook states and make the game a 3v1 as early as possible makes the addon completely busted even with the small nerf it got.
Judith's tombstone, while not great to be hit by - has actual downsides that the Killer has to work around. Tombstone piece does not.
Both add-ons have the same counter. If you're playing Myers and he's not hooking them you jump in a locker, or work on a gen constantly.
At best, either add-on should only get, at most, one kill, and then it's confirmed 100%, to brand new players that it's in play. And both add-ons slow down EW progress.
Again, this only matters if the instant kill is both popular and giving the killer more kills than not running it. It's obviously popular because of the effect, but it's clearly not getting more kills overall than running a regular build. That's the logic here.
That's why I brought up pig and Onryo, because insta kill isn't necessarily going to be giga powerful just by itself. And you ignored that because you misunderstood that my argument applies to both add-ons here.
-
@Brokenbones said:
What bothers me about the rationale about nerfing addons as described by Mandy is it doesn't seem to always be applied.
In what world is Myers killrate with Tombstone Piece not way higher than without it and how has it been left in the state it's in? I know this seems like a petty complaint but it really bothers me how (imo) quality of life addons like streamers get nerfed but game breakingly frustrating addons that can take players out of the game without a single hook get left unchanged.
Because you're confusing two very different things:
Just because an add-on or power kills survivors doesn't automatically mean it does better than not using it, or using something else.
Tombstone might be frustrating to die to, but it takes a long time to earn, is generally telegraphed (not committing to chase, tiering up takes longer, etc), and people are usually going to play around tombstone even if you aren't running it.
So you are just as likely to have gens done by the time you get that far. If nothing else, ask anyone who's tried to 4k for the achievement if that's easy to earn.
Just because a killers power outright kills survivors doesn't mean that's the best method for killing survivors. Both pig and Onryo have that ability built into their power without an add-on at all, but I don't think anyone is calling them S-tier because of it.
-
So, all of this is focused on making the match easier for killers.
For example, if we're considering "outliers", as you call it, we're focusing on bringing down SWF and bringing up "lower tier" killers, but why not also consider "the blight with quad slowdown hard tunneling at 5 gens on a 1500+ win streak"? Should that not also be a consideration?
I'm not necessarily opposed to "bringing up lower tier killers" in theory, but if there's one lesson we should be learning from 9.0 above anything else is that a system or mechanic that "evaluates how players are playing" is never going to work.
MMR barely functions, and the only thing that looks at is the end result, not the means of getting there. Adding complexity, especially using subjective criteria (like "how" someone plays), is not going to make a better system.
-
Abandon already resolved the "holding games hostage" issue. If you want to continue playing the game, then hunting survivors is literally the killers job. Distortion was deleted for exactly this scenario, so you aren't even trying to find people at this point.
Crows and go next should just be reverted at this point. They have set a terrible precedent by implementing harsh systems that determine what is considered gameplay, and "punishing for playing incorrectly".
-
This was bright up repeatedly, years before this patch. While it's a nice idea on paper, you really aren't able to force people to stay in the match if they don't want to.
Unfortunately, bad actors will find a way, up to and including just sitting on a gen missing skill checks. (Which, for the record, can also be valid gameplay -the only play- if T3 tombstone Myers is standing behind you).
The dc penalty is now mostly kill switched although the 4% still being removed and a couple other things in match are still there.
The system they put in place when 9.0 launched was way overtuned and punished a huge number of people with false positives. It shouldn't have ever been live. It shouldn't have gotten past the "let's think about the ramifications of this" phase.
-
@Pulsar said:
Your mistakes are your own, and the pressure is on you alone.
For better or for worse, Killer is autonomous. You only have yourself to blame and it can put a large amount of pressure on the player.
Contrasted to Survivor, while likely more frustrating, it's easier to not take it quite so hard. After all, you're one of four players and you can lose through no fault of your own.
This.
"My team isn't doing well" = stress, when that team is just you.
"My team isn't doing well" = frustration, when that team relies on others.