AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
About
- Username
- AmpersandUnderscore
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022696#Comment_4022696
What killer buffs are you referring to?
So, I did say buffs this time, so I won't talk about survivor perks or items. And, to keep it structured, let's talk about the major "reasons for tunneling" and why buffing killers doesn't fix the problem.
I'm also going to clarify that I'm talking about "buffing killers in general" and fully recognize that "buffing individual killers" is a different conversation entirely. That "buff individuals" part is necessary in cases also, but we also can't really do that until tunneling is addressed, and for similar reasons to below:
"Gen speeds are too fast."
We have an entire year's worth of meta to say that buffing regression doesn't work. Gen kick/cobruption meta gave killers as much time as they wanted, and yet... We didn't get a reduction in camping or tunneling, we got an increase in tunneling. What we got was killers hooking, kicking a few gens, then going back to hook to tunnel.
3 genning was buffed to be so strong that people could hold games hostage for an hour. Didn't stop them from tunneling though, since it was perfectly possible to stay close to the 3 gen and camp someone on hook to just tunnel them without leaving the area.
Tunneling at 5 gens is only effective if you can do it fast enough... So allowing more time with no further limitations just makes it directly better. (Which, for some people, this is the point)
"Survivors need another/secondary objective."
Events give survivors secondary objectives, most of the time. And every event goes the same way: people start out playing the event for fun (being off gens, doing "side objectives", and playing inefficiently. Step two is a big portion of killers realize that tunneling basically guarantees the win, and do exactly that. Step 3 is event matches become identical to regular play, with survivors ignoring the objectives and just going gens to try and survive.
Another, live example, was the couple weeks of giga thrill. Nearly uncleansable totems for about two weeks, and instead of people saying "oh good, I have time to play other play styles I've been wanting to, what a relief", instead we got "thanks for the easier game I can win by tunneling".
"Traversing the map takes too long."
Maps have been made smaller, tile chaining reduced and limited, and (until they overcorrected with the recent pallet update) they weakened pallets and added dead zones. Was over a year (again) where some maps were barely playable . (And, for the record the pallet update should've been situational and some maps didn't need pallets dialed to 11).
Yet, no one in history has said "oh good, the shoe box haddonfield, thank the entity I can not tunnel for a change".
Similar thing with traversal tools and kits. Ghoul, nurse, blight are all used as the "gold standard" for traversing the map, and are literally the poster children for hard tunneling sweaty killers. Give out traversal tools and you don't get "thank the entity, a ghoul who doesn't need to tunnel" it's "tunneling ghoul meta"
Simply "buffing killers" does not reduce tunneling. Demonstrably. With live gameplay examples, not hypotheticals.
-
@Abbzy said:
It was just fix for short time before antislug was put into live but from previous experience with devs I fear this will stay. Im getting it often in 2v8 every time Im sluged and get to part where I can get up with my class power which was buffed because it starts earlier than in previous 2v8 where you got this at 95% of recover bar, second time Im downed I can just abandon which is nuts but devs are kinda slow in fixing and reverting these temporary fixes or nerfs that can be reverted like gen kuck regression perks because now they can have strong regression, there is limit on how many times you csn as killer damage gen which didnt existed before and you could regress them infinitely.
It was just fix for short time before antislug was put into live
Do you have a source for this claim? To my knowledge the devs have never said this was a "temporary fix" in any sense.
-
@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026919#Comment_4026919
The Problem with that idea is if someone decides to troll or go next he will just run permanent to the killer.
Than everyone loses cause of one person.
This is why you hybridize it and use a donation system.
Each survivor can choose to donate their first hook to a shared hook pool that everyone uses first before individual states. If someone is wanting to abuse it, they can't get your hook state without your permission.
Even then, of you limit it to first hook only, you can still eliminate someone at hook 6 and everyone has only "second" and "death" hooks left.
Still nukes camping and tunneling, prevents abuse.
Then we can finally have an open area to talk about buffing the killers who actually need it.
-
@Firellius said:
I think it's a waste of time.
Making tunnelling a bit harder but not actually discouraging it is not going to resolve the problem, while those who are adamant that tunnelling must not be obstructed in any way are going to be just as irate over this patch as they were over 9.2.0.
Trying to appease the 'tunnelling 5ever' crowd while also trying to stop the game from bleeding survivors who just don't want to deal with tunnelling anymore is just going to end up with a system that does too little to actually address the problem, but no matter how little it does, it will be too much for the other side of the aisle.
At this point, they just need to tell one of the two groups to eat dirt. Either tell the survivors that you're not going to do anything because you fear the backlash, or tell the killers that you're going to be experimenting with anti-tunnel, even if they don't like the idea of a game without tunnelling.
I think we're already there, honestly.
Either tell the survivors that you're not going to do anything because you fear the backlash,
This is the apparent answer, with a couple major ptb tests at least. They just can't say it out loud.
Haste stacking pulled due to backlash once it was obvious it was going to affect more than just the perks loud people "wanted" nerfed. MfT was already dead, and to no one's surprise, we still got a hope nerf after they pulled the "haste stacking" part.
Anti tunnel is just enough for the devs to say they did something, and people opposed to claim that "tunneling is dead, how can you tell us how to play", yet will change nothing in game. Back to hook, power through endurance, exactly like it is now.
the 'tunnelling 5ever' crowd
You don't understand, tunneling isn't a play style, it's a way of life. Apparently.
-
@Mr_K said:
Because the carrot is better than the stick?
Over 3 years of experience have told us that, unless the devs can devise a carrot that is explicitly exempt from tunneling, it can and will be used to tunnel.
Every single buff that killer have had since at least 6.1 has been used to tunnel more effectively.
Which, for the record, includes "gen speeds" since a year of gen kick and 3 gen metas made gens take as long as the killer wanted, and yet people used that extra time to tunnel more.
The carrot does not work.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022571#Comment_4022571
So you think its better for antitunnel to stay once all gens are powered for 30 seconds after unhook? Do you know how easy would it be to just escape even if you get basekit haste and endurence for 30 seconds without other bonuses, if these all things or just basekit bt with haste stayed after unhook for 30 seconds many killers would just be unable to secure last kill which isnt good chance and even devs stated once the all gens re done there is nothing to defend for killer exept hooked survivor thats why antifacecamp doesnt work too.
That's not what I said at all, read it again.
I said that survivors already lose protections after finishing gens, and deliberately called that "common sense" and "reasonable".
But somehow it's not reasonable for tunneling at the start of the game to have any limits whatsoever for some people. That is the double standard at play here.
-
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022547#Comment_4022547
The way I am interpreting this now is that BHVR has their own internal data for balancing purposes, but that’s not what is used for the player stat tracker.That's known, though BHVR doesn't do a good job explaining it. They have discussed that while they have simple data they track and report (i.e. kill rates), they also follow things like splits of 0k, 1k, 2k, etc, game length, and lots of other data.
Why would BHVR give the players a separate set of data to use that they know is inaccurate due to the significant percentage of matches that have abandons?I have four possible theories
1: The simple - when they coded the stat tracker for individuals, it was set up without a parameter for abandons, so it just calculates abandons the same way it does DCs.
To me that is a massive oversight, though at least its a reason.
2: The deceptive - by excluding abandons, they give survivors an inflated sense of how frequently they escape, making them feel better about their performance and thus the game.
3: The conspiracy theory - everyone has conspiracy theories about BHVR it seems, mine is that they intentionally leave themselves some 'low hanging fruit'. Lots of changes to DbD are inevitably going to be controversial, so they leave some clear wins. Past examples to me of this are improvements to the bloodweb, but another example would be a 'hey, we just improved the stats' tracker!' to give themselves a 'good job' from the community.
4: They actually think its what should happen - basically, whoever set this up believes that people think of abandons as games that didn't happen. This by far the most illogical to me. Which is saying something, I would far rather believe there was a massive oversight or actual devious behavior than that a human being thought 'well, obviously abandons shouldn't count'.
I have four possible theories
So, I feel like #1 (simple) is at least the most plausible. Although it's a bit baffling that they would release both abandons and stat tracker so close together without consciously considering the outcome.
Yet, it's not unheard of to think that the "right hand isn't aware of what the left hand is doing", especially if they're different teams working on those different projects.
If it's a communication issue, or a technical limitation those are explanations. And, the simplest answer is usually correct.
That said, if anyone from a marketing standpoint looked at this, then it's also possible that #2 is an option. Telling everyone collectively "look how good you are at the game" can help mitigate subconsciously how people perceive things. It's also dishonest, assuming of course that this was a conscious decision to basically manipulate the data.
The real issue here is that the data we have isn't reflecting the player experience. So why is that the case? Even if I have to see a third option of escapes, deaths, or disconnect/abandons that would at least be transparent.
But they should never be telling players that their escape rate is 60%, (simply because we aren't counting half of your games tonight).
And, (tin foil hat time), especially with this community, if I had the goal of "driving engagement", all I would have to do is simultaneously tell killers they have an 80%+ kill rate, and survivors that they have a 60%+ escape rate, and then stand back and watch the community feed off of that to fuel outrage.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022553#Comment_4022553
We can punish killers for killing the same time we punish survivors for getting gens done.
The game naturally does. Co-op penalty and reduced patrol space always make the last gens go slower than the first.
Don't forget the biggest one, being that many perks and even base kit abilities are disabled once the gates are powered.
While those were and are generally considered "common sense" functions of the game, and "reasonable", if we use 2025 jargon it's literally "punishing survivors for doing their objective".
-
@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022069#Comment_4022069
Gen tapping stopped Gen regression. You can’t tell people still stop Gen regression it just takes a couple seconds. It is not gone it just isn’t unhealthy anymore. It’s still faster than a lot of killer actions and there’s only one of them against 4.
Now you're just redefining it after the fact.
100% of "gen tapping" occurred during chase.
The entire reason this was changed was due to feedback that kicking a gen took killer time but survivor could literally loop near a gen and stop regression without interrupting their chase. We both agree that's gone now. That was "gen tapping", full stop.
No one has complained that a survivor who can work on a gen to completion, for example, and in the process stop regression. That's not what "gen tapping" has ever meant, nor is it the main complaint that got the 5% anti gen tap restriction put into place.
It was that survivors didn't have to commit to the gen to stop the regression. Once they commit to the gen, it's not "tapping" by any definition anymore.
I have zero idea why people are arguing about this. This is just the definition of gen tapping and the fact that it was completely removed in one single mechanic change.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022142#Comment_4022142
im not saying griefing happens to me specifically, but it can and has happened to other people in my matches and like hell im going to allow a griefer to effect me because they want to bully someone else…im not getting caught in that crossfire. And with the cheating thats going recently with hackers….these hackers would be boosting team mates scores if its team based even if the rest of the team isnt hacking. These things shouldnt happen but fact is they do. so when…not if but when they do happen they shouldnt effect other innocent people. if its team scoring not individual it might make me play more as a team it might have the opposite effect. i mean why bother trying if i can let my team mates do the work? i could do nothing, let them do gens and chases and if they are good enough i take the benefits for doing nothing. But scoring people as a team will never work because we are not a team if we all have our own goals such as escape via hatch and 1 going for adept and 1 doing totems…thats not a team thats individuals with individual goals. At best soloq players are 4 individuals with a common goal. it is sounding more and more like you play mostly SWF.
Yes if 3 people go down that fast then they misplayed badly. they probably werent stealthy enough or dont do so good with loops or they unhook too soon or tried to do saves and failed, there are so many common mistakes people do which leads to them all getting downed. you think the 1 person doing gens should stop doing gens and take aggro for the lousy players that cant last 5 seconds in a chase? 4 people can "rat" the whole match if they know how to play stealthy, its rare but i have a few matches where this has been the case….the result usually leads to a couple of gens being done before the killer has chased anyone and they often DC.
bleed out is only 4min, so if it takes you 30min to find me in a match then you would need to flat out ignore the injured survivor so they could do gens because if you down them you got 4min to find me not 30min.
no one said anything about telling randoms how to play, they could make that decision on their own. but im willing to bed if i said "dwight, killer heading your way" they wouldnt go "im not doing what you tell me to do" lol if they do then thats on them but my guess would be they would move.
Now you have just proven how effective SWF with comms can be…solo solution is follow ghost face to snap him out of his power. that means i have to stop what im doing on the gen to accomplish something comms could do in a fraction of the time and wouldnt need to stop the gen. Throw in dead mans switch and that gen could be blocked. See how effective comms can be v solo ways of accomplishing the same goal? By all means SWF teams can have fun and a laugh and not use comms like seal teams but they dont have to because 1 little comment via comms goes a long way and can often mean the killer has a harder time.
How we have fun can differ and it isnt wrong having fun winning or having fun joking around with friends. which is why im happy with how things are, people can meme all they want i still play to win and accomplish that goal with enough success that i still find the game fun. Which is why i wont tell anyone how to play the game because i play my way. i wont tell a killer "dont tunnel, your ruining my fun" i wont tell a killer "stop memeing and chase me", i wont say to a survivor on my team "stop doing whatever it is your doing that means the killer is downing you in seconds", i wont even tell SWF not to use comms" or "dont do gens, meme around with me". However, my attitude does change when im told how to play the game and told stop tunneling, stop being stealthy….then i fire back with stop doing what your doing and play how i want you to play to prove a point.
I'm just going to point out briefly, because I think it's relevant, that the idea of this being a team game is a bit up for debate.
There's always been a big discussion around this game being 1v4 or 1v1v1v1v1. As far as "scoring" goes, there are blood point incentives for altruism.
But as far as MMR goes this is mostly individual Although if I'm not mistaken there is still a team component, so for example if I die and my 3 teammates escape I believe I do lose MMR, but far less than a 4k, and my teammates gain MMR, but less than if we had all 4 escaped.
And just as I have no say on anything the killer does, I also have no say in how my teammates play (even if I'm in a swf). And, to reinforce the point about team vs individual, the build left behind, sole survivor, clairvoyance, and low profile is considered a valid way to play the game.
One other brief point: there is a notable lack of subtlety and nuance in this community in general, but there's a massive difference between telling killers "you can't play this way", which is what I see many people claim, and "BHVR, the meta gameplay you've created is flawed and should be fixed" which is what I see most people actually saying.
People here seem to intentionally take it the first way, but I almost never see people say that. Mainly, people do not want things to change, which is understandable, and (some) people will try to spin it personally for various reasons.
Unfortunately, sometimes that spin also has a direct impact on game balance (the most recent examples being "haste changes" and "anti tunnel ptb" that were pulled almost completely).
-
@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021651#Comment_4021651
Yes tapping for a tenth of a second during chase was unhealthy and removed, you can still stop regression same as before it just takes a couple seconds which is reasonable. It’s still faster than Trapper setting a trap. It was changed to be more reasonable not gutted.
I wouldn’t say Krasue is gutted because they added some time to her pallet scamper, even though you can’t use it on every pallet anymore.
Yes tapping for a tenth of a second during chase was unhealthy and removed
This is the entirety of what "gen tapping" was. Anything else, ie "outside of chase" is just stopping regression because you're working on the gen.
I didn't say anything about Krasue so I'm not sure where that's coming from.
I'm literally just saying that gen tapping isn't "slightly longer", it's completely gone.
-
@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021879#Comment_4021879
I think BP incentives are a harmless incentive that shouldn't be controversial. It isn't going to "fix" anything, by a long shot, but it also is one of the few ways that also doesn't impact game balance in any way. It
mightonly incentivise a small group, but I think it's worth it given that it basically costs nothing, and doesn't cause a balance problem.But the changes they are being used to bribe people for ARE a balance issue. BP is a fine extra external incentive if you want to err on the side of caution for killer compensation but the actual meaningful compensation NEEDS to be IN THE GAME ITSELF, and it needs to actually be worthwhile or nothing changes. People are going to double down because there is no incentive at all not to tunnel because apparently (to no ones surprise) survivors cried about killers getting only half decent benefits and we cant have that in our survivor game where only they are allowed good things can we?
Even then, the number is absolutely laughable. Really shows how much the team cares (not) about killer players. They can try adding some 0's on the end and maybe people might care enough to sabotage their own games. Gimme 10k a hook and ill let little timmy run around longer, otherwise i get more BP just playing properly…
But the changes they are being used to bribe people for ARE a balance issue. BP is a fine extra external incentive if you want to err on the side of caution for killer compensation
Yes, that's why I said it's mostly harmless to put in a BP incentive in the first place. People can choose to play however they want, and most will continue to choose the meta (in this case tunneling). That's why I said it shouldn't be controversial, but it also likely won't be impactful.
actual meaningful compensation NEEDS to be IN THE GAME ITSELF, and it needs to actually be worthwhile or nothing changes.
Here's the problem: we've tried for over 3 and a half years now to just "buff killers and trust that they will be incentivized to change away from tunneling". And for 3 and a half years, the response to those buffs going live is always "thanks for the buff, I'm going to use this to tunnel harder". Every time.
There's always some "other reason" why people have to keep tunneling. The goal post moves every single time. The devs have been playing whack-a-mole with the killer's flavor of the month "reason for tunneling" for years, and the "reason for tunneling" always switches immediately to the next "big issue" that "forces killers to tunnel".
There are only two options here: blanket or blind incentives will not work. Either:
A) An incentive has to be completely, undeniably incompatible with tunneling immediately as the game starts, but somehow still work with other play styles. (No one has yet proposed something like this - that I've seen).
B) There must be some downside implemented that limits tunneling at the start of the game that decays or is removed as the game progresses.
At this point, we're at the "downside" stage. You are more than welcome to attempt to come up with an incentive that would be beneficial, but so far every single proposal I've ever seen boils down to "just giga buff killer" with changes that would also giga buff tunneling also.
apparently (to no ones surprise) survivors cried about killers getting only half decent benefits
This is a very misleading take. The Anti-Tunnel PTB was testing an "early elimination penalty" with the compensation of base kit BBQ and base kit Pop. I didn't see a single person complaining about the compensation of making those perks base kit. Not that it was impossible that this happened or "no one" did, to be clear, but if that happened it was overwhelmingly drowned out by the flood of killers screaming about not wanting the "early elimination penalty" part.
So the devs pulled the "penalty" that would limit tunneling, and also pulled the corresponding compensation that was no longer justified. Nearly 100% of that PTB pull back was because of killer players "feedback". And it wasn't even remotely close to "constructive feedback".
And, just to be clear, the versions of Pop and BBQ that they tested were fully compatible with tunneling on their own. BBQ just lets you know you are safe to camp or lurk near the hook because you know where the rest of the team is. Pop had no limitation to hooks, and was given on every hook, including the first three. So base kit pop would just get used exactly like the meta perk is now: step away to kick a gen and go immediately back to the hook to tunnel.
Which is why those downsides were present in the first place.
-
@XLbuff said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021781#Comment_4021781
Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough in the other comments and people keep clinging to carrot like rabbits, having their own view on it. My english is far from perfect, but I will try.
I do not think individual killer buffs, any perks or base-kit band-aids will ever change fundamental flaws in core game mechanics. Only actual changes to core game loop can actually fix issues. If devs want killers to hook different survivors then it has to be the goal, this goal should be rewarded, not with some BPs and a bit of bloodlust, it should be game-changing incentives. You as a player should want to play this way, not restricted to.
None of other changes will matter long-term. People complain about tunneling from the beginning and they will complain after next patch, and other patch and after another year.
I do not think individual killer buffs, any perks or base-kit band-aids will ever change fundamental flaws in core game mechanics. Only actual changes to core game loop can actually fix issues
I actually agree with this. Unless or until there are changes to the core game nothing significant will change.
I've actually proposed a "hook donation" system in the past, where survivors basically share the first hook in a pool, and "second hook" and "death hook" are individual. It doesn't change the goal of eliminating someone as fast as possible, but it significantly alters how killers will get there. You can't just camp or tunnel through effectively 6 hook stages without eating so much time that you lose, and it drives the game toward getting hooks as fast as possible.
I doubt that will ever happen, but it would be an example of how to change the meta. Although, I think people would still dislike it because they don't like change, among other things.
If devs want killers to hook different survivors then it has to be the goal, this goal should be rewarded, not with some BPs and a bit of bloodlust, it should be game-changing incentives.
I think BP incentives are a harmless incentive that shouldn't be controversial. It isn't going to "fix" anything, by a long shot, but it also is one of the few ways that also doesn't impact game balance in any way. It might only incentivise a small group, but I think it's worth it given that it basically costs nothing, and doesn't cause a balance problem.
You as a player should want to play this way, not restricted to.
My main disagreement is mostly this: we already learned a long time ago that comeback mechanics need limits or it causes problems. It's why I brought up things disabling in end game, which I've always thought was reasonable. But without those limitations, the game was pretty different after the gates were powered. Putting those restriction in was necessary.
The main problem with something like tunneling is that there isn't a limitation in using it, at least not a limitation that people will admit to. And, unfortunately, that limits the conversation in an awful lot of areas.
You can't really have a discussion about "how to fix m1 killers", for example, without someone using it to tunnel. Even if we went extreme, like "after each hook the trapper can teleport to any gen in the map exactly once (like Freddy)". Sounds good, fixes some of the large map and traversal issues, and can cut down the time between chases.
Except, people will just use it to slow walk across the map, kick a gen, and teleport back the instant they get an unhook notification to tunnel.
At some point, those tactics need to have limits, or people will do them excessively, especially if it wins games. There was no buff we could give to stop 3 genning, it has to be limited to get people to stop. Tunneling is the same way, unfortunately.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021661#Comment_4021661
What exactly is you point then?
Why should we care if gen tapping was completely removed, if it was part of an update that was overall way more survivor-sided than killer-sided?
Well I said it twice now, so I guess a third time. Gen tapping was removed completely.
That's it. Nothing deeper than that.
-
@XLbuff said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021768#Comment_4021768
I already said what direction. Stick instead of carrot for killers. I don't understand when people defend bad game design.
There is nothing meaningful behind hooks for the main goal of the killer, no game-changing incentives. If people can win faster without hooking different players, but that's intended way to play in devs minds, then it is definitely the game design problem. And such survivor buffs, perks or killer nerfs not gonna change much long-term. It just makes the game more restrictive, less fun, more mechanical "play by the book or be punished" chore. They don't provide attractive alternatives to what they're trying to fight with such balance attempts.
Two things:
First off,
Stick instead of carrot for killers.
The "carrot" doesn't work. They've spent 3 and a half years improving killers individually and collectively, and successfully increased the kill rate to 60%.
They've tossed out bushels of carrots, and even had some pretty egregious issues that made it live for various lengths of time. (Cobruption/gen kick meta, Uber thrill, and individual killers at launch come to mind).
You know what's happened every single time they gave out those carrots? The response was always "thanks for the buff, now I'll use it to camp and tunnel more". Every time.
There has to be some restriction that prevents this from being the only strategy that people ever need.
And, I find it interesting that the "but I need to be able to express my skill" crowd goes silent during tunneling conversations, and everyone generally recognizes that spreading hooks demonstrates more skill than hard tunneling. That's interesting.
Two,
It's not a punishment. It's a restriction, or it could be if people actually allowed them to.
I wonder if we would have had the "conspicuous actions" change of people had cried and used this language before 6.1. Because adding the conspicuous actions and, specifically, disabling tunneling perks in the end game were good changes for the health of the game. And I'll stand by that like I have since they announced it.
But, in modern lingo, turning off tunneling perks in end game is exactly what people are burning the forums down about, isn't it? It's exactly "punishing survivors for progressing their objective", if you use that wording.
But just like that was necessary, so it's hard tunneling restriction. Period. For the health of the game.
-
I think it's generally accepted that, all else being equal (map, killer, opponent, RNG, etc), that if two killers get, say 5 hooks, and 12 hooks that the 12 hooks is a more impressive measure of skill, even if both games end in a 4k.
Personally, I don't see a reasonable way to capture that skill in something like MMR. If, for example, we based MMR on hooks instead of kills, it would open itself to abuse, where (some) players would intentionally slug everyone to death every game, lower their MMR in the process, and continue to get "easy" games while still eliminating the opposing team.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021651#Comment_4021651
Gen tapping was removed as part of the anti-3-gen update, which overall nerfed killers way more than it nerfed survivors.
Killers had the 3-gen strategy massively nerfed, AND some of the killer generator perks got massively nerfed, AND Skull Merchant got a large nerf because of it.
It's so absolutely ridiculous that killers got so many nerfs because of the 3-gen update, and you want to claim that the removal of generator tapping is somehow more game changing than all of the killer-related nerfs combined in that update.
Calm down there, I didn't say any of that.
All I said was that gen tapping wasn't "slightly modified" it was removed completely. Which is factually correct.
-
@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021339#Comment_4021339
Gutted means changed so the gameplay has significantly changed or is no longer possible.
40 seconds of endurance from OTR still functions the same as before.
Gen tapping taking a couple of extra seconds is not significantly different.
Distortion performing the same function but being changed in a healthy way to obtain charges is not gutted.Fog vials were gutted, Skull Merchant was gutted. Those things do not perform their function any more.
Gen tapping taking a couple of extra seconds is not significantly different.
Uh, no.
Gen tapping was completely deleted and removed. It is currently physically impossible to stop regression during chase unless the killer actively allows it.
That's what the complaints for "gen tapping" were in their entirety: people stopping for a tenth of a second to stop regression while in chase.
That is completely, 100% gone due to anti gen tap.
-
It's a shame they don't actually listen. I posted about this exact issue years ago, and repeated it nearly every time it came up.
I've never understood the reason people want this change. A survivor without collision can still be the target of an attack, even right now.
This will just add another layer of frustration for killers because the Kate you can't see clipping into your hitbox, but just in front of you, eats the hit with BT instead now.
April, 2023.
@AetherBytes said:
I was thinking about how annoying it was that in the end game survivors can bumrush a hooked survivor, take a hit to get him off, and then the unhooked survivor just bodyblocks the killer and forces them to either hit the unhooked survivor instead of their intended target and everyone gets out, or hit no one and everyone gets out.
Suddenly had the idea to simply make unhooked survivors lose collision until their endurance wears off (via expirey or taking damage). Removes the frustration of a killer being unable to do anything with a survivor abusing their endurance and forcing the killer into a lose lose for not tunneling, and also means the killer cant just trap a survivor in a corner or bodyblock them over and over and wait out their endurance to force a down if they are tunneling.
What do you guys think?
-
@Leon_van_Straken said:
It is funny because it is most likely the same all the time.
Someone wants things to be equal and others think they will lose anything about this.
Lets make the Survey equal for survivor and killer and all inbetween. Answer "HELL NO"
Give Killer a way to Abbandon the game. "HELL NO" because Killer can do things all the time (but hitting the floor two times in a row is completly unplayable cough cough)"
Let Killer see the hook status. "HELL NO" because this would make tunneling easier cause the killer who decided to tunnel will forget which person he is tunneling or stuff like that.
But you can say all these have "legit" counter arguments. Except for "Why it would be terrible that Killer complains could be heard if they decide to deinstall the game.
All 3 of your examples already exist:
Survey? It doesn't say if your reason is that your are tired of tunneling or tired of being tunneled as your gameplay. It's already "both sides".
There's also a ######### text box you can type in, and it doesn't exactly check your number of hours played per role to enable any of these options.
Killers already have abandon, when it's been 10 minutes after gen completion.
Hook status was added already.
This whole survey "issue" is like watching an entitled child complaining and crying that they didn't get anything at someone else's birthday party. Except in this case, the entitled child actually was given a present and also got the birthday party cancelled at the same time, and still thinks it's somehow unfair. FFS.
-
Why are people so up in arms about this issue?
Do killers really want an option to say gen rushing is awful, have BHVR acknowledge it, put it in the road map, put it out for ptb testing, and then immediately pull the plug on the changes and do nothing meaningful?
I mean ok, I guess we could give "equal treatment" and have BHVR tell killers in plain language that their biggest concerns mean nothing and they will do nothing to change it. That's what this entire "survey" issue really is at the end of the day.
-
Because there are effectively no bonuses that can be given that will benefit spreading hooks instead of also benefiting tunneling. Especially if it works in the first 3 hooks of the game.
Gen regression on hook? People use it for more time to tunnel someone out.
Aura reads to see where survivors are? Oh, survivors are "too far" away? Better to just stay near the hook and allow them to do gens for free.
The only bonus I've seen that would work is extrinsic, or outside of the match. So a minor bonus like giving BP on unique hook (old BBQ bonus) would be good, but also wouldn't make a huge impact either.
-
This is an awful lot of manufactured outcry over one, single line:
Excessive tunneling and camping.
Which says nothing about which side of the tunneling and camping you're on. Especially since you can pick other options, like "gameplay is repetitive".
People are deliberately reading it as
"[I'm tired of my opponent choosing] excessive tunneling and camping"
But we've also heard from killers for years now that people (claim to) also feel:
"[I'm tired of feeling I have to choose] excessive tunneling and camping"
It's already written as a "survivor" or "killer" line.
People have been claiming they feel forced to tunnel for years, which is another way of reading this line (unless you're just trying to spin it as dev bias).
So, imo, this problem is either looking for outrage, which is status quo for the people starting the fire here, or people have been lying about "being forced to tunnel". Both options are being disingenuous.
-
@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020317#Comment_4020317
Thats not right.
A Killer can´t regress a completed gen and a survivor can´t regress a lost hook stage.
A Killer can only regress a non completed gen like a survivor who can regress the chase by healing up.
Edit: You could go even further with my analogy.
Hitting a Survivor with a M1 is like hitting a skill check on a gen.
IF you manage to do so you progress your objective, if you miss it you will need longer to do it.
While every analogy falls apart at some level, there are really only two comparisons that even kind of make sense.
Option A: Eliminations are similar to gens being completed. This is where having one survivor completely gone from the game is permanent game progress, and is compared to permanent gen completion.
This is the one you started with, since you mentioned "survivors don't 99% a gen and walk away" and compared that to tunneling someone out. This is why @Firellius made the comment that gens can be regressed from 99 to zero, because that's the flaw in this analogy.
Hook states are partial progress to that elimination, and are also permanent. So if the analogy were to hold true, gens would also have to lock in at 1/3 and 2/3 and not be able to be regressed below that point.
That distinction is exactly why people don't leave a gen at 90% and go do something else, because that progress isn't guaranteed. Unlike the equivalent of 2 hook states, where the next is an elimination... Because that gen can regress completely to zero if they walk away. There is no way to delete hook stages from the game.
Option B: Individual hooks are similar to gens being completed. Hooks are also permanent progress toward the objective, just like completed gens are.
In which case, yes you can completely heal up ("regressing the chase to zero") just like the gen can, and no actual permanent progress is made until the hook, or the gen is complete.
You switch to this phrasing later on, but then you need to understand that your initial question of "why do survivors not leave a gen at 99%" is actually equivalent to "why don't killers chase a survivor until they are injured and within striking range of being downed and then walk away without finishing the chase".
It makes more sense why both of those players are completing those actions to guarantee the permanent game progress in that light...
But then any analogy to tunneling is completely gone also in option b.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020175#Comment_4020175
this map pressure phenomenon you're talking about doesn't exist. the best map pressure is killing survivors quick. otherwise you'll just walk around pretending to apply pressure.
I'm not sure where this mindset comes from. Constantly being in chase, especially chasing people off of gens is slowdown. It's some of the strongest slowdown in the game.
The alternative, which is either camping or waiting near the hook to tunnel, is literally doing nothing and calling it a "strategy" all while you allow survivors to do gens for free.
-
Pretty sure the community finally agreed on something a while back and told the devs that nerfing things simply and only due to popularity (pick rate) was a terrible way to go.
-
So,
to reach the target : kill all the survivor before all the gen being done.
No. Gens aren't part of the killers main objective. The goal is to kill survivors, which can still be done in end game. There are builds that entirely rely on the gens being complete (noed, blood warden).
Gens are an expendable resource that killers can use up completely in pursuit of their goal to killing. Just like pallets are expendable resources for survivors, yet I never see people claiming that the game is somehow "impossible" because they can still escape, but had to throw a pallet, so it "doesn't count". On the other hand, I certainly see people claiming that "4k doesn't matter because they did 3 gens".
force survivor to do something else
This is the strategy you're missing from your list: it's called map pressure. And it's the opposite of camping and tunneling.
Tunneling absolutely does not give survivors anything to do... You are, by definition, ignoring 3 survivors to focus one person out of the game and in doing so, the other 3 can do whatever they want. You have deliberately given those 3 nothing to do, and they will do gens.
Map pressure is leaving survivors alone who can't do gens (hook, recovery, secondary objectives, some killer powers) and pressuring the survivors on gens. They physically can't do gens if you're pursuing them. One on hook, one going for rescue, one in chase, and one in gens is automatically 67% slower gens speed than tunneling and letting 3 people do gens for free.
And people understand this works, but can't seem to apply it to 4 survivors, where if there are 3 them one in chase, one going for rescue, and one on hook leaves no one on gens at all.
Killers have been obsessed with gens since the gen kick meta, and just can't accept that 4k is enough for a win. We've had posts on this exact forum calling for survivor nerfs using video of a 4k with 5 gens left, because survivors cleansed I've hex totem.
Go chase survivors, that is the main objective.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020128#Comment_4020128
thats where the skill comes in, know the distance og the gen and avoid being detected. my whole playstyle is stealth first, loop second.im doing just fine. even with the add ons and such that make people scream and have killer instinct its about knowing where to go after its been triggered, often the killer comes looking for me knowing im in the area but just cant find me. i keep the killer distracted longer doing that than some do in chases. i dont use aura hidding perks and im still doing fine in my matches. it sounds like an excuse tbh. if i wasnt doing well in my matches using stealth then i could see your point but im doing it match after match, week after week, month after month.
Since you seem to be doubling down on this, I just want to make sure I get this take correct for the record.
You're in this thread saying that: hiding in a bush and avoiding your opponent is top tier, maximum skill...
And actually interacting in the PVP aspect of the game (looping) is "skill less".
That's certainly a take, especially since you should've named your account "sneakguy" if that's your actual goal. Since, you know, running takes no skill...
And I don't think that stealth is impossible, since you mentioned it to someone else. It should be a part of survivor gameplay, just like gens, healing, rescue, mind games, macro, and looping. There's a time and a place for "not standing in the open", just like there's a time and a place for taking a hit or even agro. But you aren't going to be able to hide reliabily, all the time, every game.
Planning to hide from the lobby is completely countered by being found first, where hook notifications and camping alone are enough to get you tunneled out. The only way that doesn't work is if your killer is quite literally playing with their monitor turned off and not using their eyes.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020112#Comment_4020112
perks are irrelevant. im doing very well with stealth play, these perks dont only exist in your game. and also based on the amount of killers that say they have to use full slowdown builds because gens fly they only have 4 perks slots which is mostly slowdown and chase perks not aura perks
Well, nowhere to hide is the #4 most used killer perk, so meta completely disagrees with your "no room for auras when bringing regression" thing.
Even outside of just auras, information creep in general has brought about more sources of killer instinct, screams, and killer specific information in their kits.
And, I'll go ahead and point out that the only two actual aura blocking perks require you to either be hooked (OTR), or recharge only in active chase (distortion)... So not being found is, intentionally, not feasible long term without getting into chase.
"Just don't be found 4head" is both insanely tone deaf and not at all reflective of 2025 DbD.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020082#Comment_4020082
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020064#Comment_4020064
stealth, i have said it many times, stealth play, lose line of sight. killers cant tunnel what they cant find. if i can do gens and remain hidden im sure others can. loop as secondary after your found….dont rely on it because then i can say you rely on looping like killers rely on tunneling…the one and only tactic that works for you and for them.
i have never said cant loop while i tunnel. im saying we can all do what we need to do. you need to loop? great, i need to tunnel. want me to stop tunneling? ok, i want you to stop looping. fair is fair
Stealth play?
You mean in the game that gave out about 20 different aura reading perks that are on unpredictable triggers, deleted anti aura protections, and implemented anti hiding.
You really do think it's 2018.
-
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4020054#Comment_4020054
If we're not supposed to loop, then what are we supposed to do, especially when you tunnel? 😕
Don't hide, don't pre run, don't use perks, don't use items, don't run away too early, don't give up, and absolutely, under no circumstances, should you ever touch a gen.
So, the perfect survivor stands in the open near a gen (but not touching it) and acts like an NPC. You should have about 3s reaction time and only start running just before the first hit takes a health state.
The only pallets you can throw are the equivalent of Ormond picnic table. You aren't allowed to hold w, and looping is (apparently) skill less.
Make sure to congratulate the killer on how amazing they are and how they deserve to be Max MMR, and how they should be showered in buffs to counter those evil SWF players.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019717#Comment_4019717
it really is running in a circle, i do it often enough to know how easy it is to see a pallet and see a potential loop location where i go in a circle and force the killer to drop pallet, then move to another pallet.
Playing SWF doesnt make you a good player, your right, but it can increase your chances of escape. thats my point.
i can be an awful looper, no idea what im doing but if i have a team making call outs so i can pre run, know where the hex totems are, know where my team is leading the chase so i can do gens on the opposite side of the map, know which of my team mates are going for the save and whos staying on gens, know what perks my team mates have, these things make a huge difference and increase my escape chances if im a bad player.
you point of taking a loss instead of tunneling would make sense if the killers were complaining about the super difficulty of the matches they are getting. But killers are not complaining, they are simply tunneling and its the survivors that complain about it. im fine having sweaty matches where i need to tunnel to win…i just tunnel, its not a problem. why would killers want to stop tunneling, take the loss and remain in a lower MMR if they dont have an issue with tunneling? It seems its survivors that have the issue with tunneling killers which they will get more and more in high MMR. so maybe they are the ones that should stop using SWF to raise MMR? stay in a lower bracket so they get less tunnelers? or maybe not use meta perks and loop early on so they dont raise MMR and feel the need to use these perks and loop in high MMR?
Fact is, its the survivors that have the biggest issue with tunneling, so i dont think the view of killers should cop the loss applies but it does apply to survivors that have the issue.
it really is running in a circle
Checks spots, knowing when to drop and maximize the loop, mind games, when and where to use your perks…
Most importantly, how do you play against each killer, and in some cases, how you play against specific add-ons.
Discounting all of that is purely disingenuous bias.
But killers are not complaining, they are simply tunneling
Killers are absolutely complaining.
Complaining about how they feel "forced to tunnel", complaining about SWF, complaining about MMR. (Which, you yourself are doing in your post)
And the root cause of these complaints is that tunneling is insanely simple and too effective.
So instead of playing against teams of similar skill, like people should be, instead killers can just tunnel relentlessly and decimate those teams.
Killers are boosting their MMR until they are so far over their heads they can barely keep up. And it's because tunneling gets them there.
stay in a lower bracket so they get less tunnelers?
You have no respect (or maybe don't understand) looping, but think that tunneling is some advanced tactic?
Following the notification and going back to hook is something that anyone can do. My nephew is 5 and could figure that out, and I could program a bot to do it.
The only actual skill involved with tunneling is chase... So knowing how to loop.
-
There's already a grace period after hiking if I think 7 seconds where the meter will not move even if the killer is nearby.
It's specifically to give the killer time to walk away from the hook.
-
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019455#Comment_4019455
The data we use, is not that survey but the survey that pops up when you uninstall the game.
I'm just going to point out that, if one of the most common reasons for uninstalling the game is tunneling, and then you immediately pull the changes and push out effectively nothing meaningful...
That is the opposite of bringing players back to the game who leave for this reason.
You're actively signaling to those players that "you left for good reason, we aren't going to meaningfully address this issue".
-
First of all, i wanna know what the other 2 reasons are and where on the board they stand.
Some of those reasons they may not be able to do much about. One of them is "I don't have time to play", for example, which isn't anything they can address. Might still be interesting to see,.
Second, People who actually uninstall the game would also stop playing the game for good. They would'nt still be here to speak up about it.
People tend to revisit multiplayer pvp games. Just look at the uptick in players during events. DbD is also in a category with nearly no competition most of the time.
BHVR isn't retaining players. Some people pop in, get the event rewards, then leave due to the game state and only come back for the next event. Others do uninstall for a while.
The players counts are maintained by some players who do stay, or new players joining. And new player experience can be terrible.
Personally, I haven't touched survivor in over a year and a half, because my friends quit and solo q is awful. I used to play this game daily. The main reason I'm even on these forums is the long shot that maybe the devs will unfuck their game and I can screw around with my friends again.
That looks like it will never happen, but I don't think I'm the only one who would come back if they actually fixed things like hard tunneling instead of doing absolutely nothing or useless "we gave haste on unhook and called it anti tunnel". Which, is a slap in the face to people who actually don't get to play their game because of that problem. Thanks for nothing, you refuse to fix it, move on is the overwhelming message.
Third, why is facecamping still an issue? Didnt you solve this 10 patches ago with a patch that is popular on both sides?
There was a video about 6 months ago of a survivor getting actively hit on hook with AFC active for like 30 seconds. It's since been deleted, because I saved it for this exact reason.
AFC doesn't fix anything, and killers can still face camp.
This is one of the big problems where BHVR "addresses" something by putting up a pop up that says "it looks like you're face camping", then gives people an option to disable that notification in the settings by default when they complain about it.
Fourth, for every killer that complains he can never get a kill because of the flashlights and pallets and endless loops come 4 survivors that say the opposite so your ratio is really off.
There's a trend I've seen on these forums for years:
Survivors don't usually announce or threaten to quit, they just quietly leave. The frustration builds to a point where they will just drop the game and walk away. Those are the players not being heard, and feel it's useless because BHVR has a track record of not fixing very prominent issues.
The step right before quitting is burnout, where people will keep playing for a bit, but might DC more often, or give up in matches. You shouldn't do that, but they're on the verge of quitting and haven't yet realized that or made that decision yet. BHVR's response to those people was to punish them and push them out the door faster.
Killers tend to quit less. And part off that is because they will threaten to quit, publicly, unless demand are met. BHVR has a pretty long track record of bending to those demands, so killers don't actually quit: they just continue to make demands of the devs.
Most recently it's gotten really bad, the haste changes and anti tunneling changes were "pulled due to feedback" instantly because of exactly this kind of demand. It absolutely is working for people, and sadly, it's not working well enough for others (some people still want gen kick meta levels of regression back, or 90% kill rates, or some other entitled thing).
So why would killers actually quit? "The devs aren't catering enough" is the only answer. It's not a numbers game.
-
@Paribean said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4019418#Comment_4019418
Tile chaining and pallet strength has not been addressed or if it has it keeps flip-flopping like the strenght of maps like haddonfield. And even tunneling at 5 gens can be combated by having survivors taking hits for the teammate being tunneled effectively giving them multiple health states or just not unhooking them immediately and letting them stay on the hook which was encouraged the devs themselves on yesterdays stream.
Tile chaining, maps, and pallets were addressed over two years. Weaker pallets, reduces tile spawn chance, smaller maps, were absolutely part of conscious balance changes…by community request.
The recent pallet rework was an attempt to undo the major damage they did to maps as part of that, and, like usual, they went to far there too.
Similar thing happens with health states.
I never said tunneling is completely uncounterable or impossible, but it takes coordination and the right perk combinations, on top of RNG with maps, spawns, and matchmaking, to even attempt it.
Coordination and good RNG are absolutely not core game features. Even "the right perks" have been nerfed also.
I don't pick my teammates, and even if I did, that's yet another thing players complain about also.
-
@Blueberry said:
Yeah the buff for not tunneling looks pretty worthless to me. I don’t see it having much of an impact on anything.
Part off the reason for this is because they removed any downsides to actually tunneling.
And, for the record, there is no buff "for not tunneling", it's simply just a buff.
There's nothing in the extra haste that requires you to chase anyone else, and it's fully compatible with getting back to hook faster and chasing the person off hook in a tunneling situation also.
-
A short, of the top of my head, list of "reasons that killers tunnel", since about 6.1.0:
- Gen speeds
- Dead hard
- DS
- Dead hard again
- Circle of healing
- Prove thyself
- BNP
- Medkits
- Maps are too big
- Tile chaining
- Pallets are too strong
- MfT
- Survivors are playing healthy (too many health states)
- Survivors are playing injured (just doing gens)
- Distortion (can't find anyone)
Every one of these has been addressed, and each time the goal post moves again. Because tunneling itself is the problem and the cause.
why they occur
Tunneling is a base kit comeback mechanic that is always available and has no downside for using it immediately as the game starts. It is simpler to execute for the killer than it is to counter for survivors, making it highly effective.
Tunneling at 5 gens is not a response to anything. In fact, doing so makes gen speeds worse, because the killer has decided to force the game to be a race: put all of their attention on one player and leave 3 others to do gens. The match becomes a race to see if 3-4 gens are finished before the killer can get 3 hooks on the same person to eliminate them.
When it works, the killer wins.
When it doesn't work, people post like this: complaining about the flavor if the month, or defaulting to "gen speeds". Even if "doesn't work" is one match out of an entire game session.
And, clearly, the killer community does not allow BHVR to actually address this issue, so it will not get better.
-
@Ragna_Rock said:
People are doing gens SOLO in 30sec and nothing is brought up about it but killer kills too fast and now we need to add more layers of base-kit protection because the ultra-casual who refuse to learn the game cant last more than 10 secs.
Meanwhile competent people can bring perks and toolboxes that cut gen times by a third making OG Ruin look fair at this point.
People are doing gens SOLO in 30sec and nothing is brought up about it
Source?
-
Well, we've tried punishing them. DC penalties have clearly not fixed the problem.
We haven't tried addressing literally any of the underlying causes to why people might be disconnecting, which isn't always petty reasons like "I don't like the killer" or something.
But instead of dealing with the #1 survivor complaint of "I don't get to play the game if I'm found first", survivors who are frustrated by that were given the middle finger by a small, but loud part of the community, and the devs pulled the plug on everything, early even, to cater to that minority group.
So it's apparently more important, possibly more lucrative, to cater to the loud community who wants nothing to change instead of the frustrated fodder players who are on the brink of burnout. Or already burned out and haven't found a way out yet.
-
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016114#Comment_4016114
But okay, let's talk about the game, and about tunnelling. You keep mentioning these good survivor players but I can hop on a killer I've never played as and get a 4k against decent players right now, even with no knowledge of that killer, if I hard tunnel someone out at 5 gens. It's too easy. The expectation is for survivors to become not just fantastic players, but fantastic team players (and with little resources to do so in soloq), just to counter even mid to low opponents. The power balance is off because of this tactic.
But is it actually so? Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes. Solo Q just tends to make mistakes more and they are less forgiving. And it’s how it's supposed to work, but it doesn't mean they deserve handholding and turn of their mistakes as punishment for killer if they decide to capitalize it.
It doesn't mean every game should evolve around high play. And it doesn't in this game. Nothing prevents people from trying out different builds, or meme around. But artificial mechanics like busted S tier, new pallet density heavily backfire and give people tools they don't actually deserve. Mobility on killers forgiving macro mistakes. Spammable power forgets micro mistakes. Genrush perk forgets poor efficiency from the start. 4 chase build forgets the lack of clean movements. But you can genrush and fail because you were too greedy. You can tunnel and lose because we're holding too long a chase and the survivors capitalised mistake. So is tunnelling a problem here, or people getting frustrated that the other side can heavily punish for misplay or mistake? And because it's a 1 vs 4 thing, if one survivor made a mistake, everyone has to share responsibility for it.
So it doesn't have a real reason to scrap it from the ground. Anti-tunnel PTB wasn’t about helping QoL. It wasn’t about fixing the issues I mentioned before. Moreover, it gifted haste power creep to killers like Spirit, Clown, Springtrap, providing actually cheesy gameplay, because you don't need to use your brain a lot moving with additional haste, making every first hit free. While for actually poor mobility killers it wasn't enough most of the time. Making base kit DS also does not solve every one of those issues, everything that includes “anti” and provides so much for free as anti-tunnel does it would likely be just a new game mechanic that plays the game instead of the player. Perks and powers are already doing this on a great level, and you are just suggesting adding another layer to this. Its initial mechanics are broken, not the way people play the game. As I have told and will continue to claim, anti-tunnel is an extreme change of meta in tag war and indulging specific sentiment. If it's the initial reason to bypass balancing, then you can’t balance it.
You don't need to be a fantastic player to avoid or try to counterplay stuff like tunnelling. Moreover, you can play in a way that makes tunnelling a desperate move or turns out to be a killer mistake and capitalise on it. You don’t need to have voice chat to play decently in a team. Your team have to consist of the same level and you should have some resemblance to comms and that's enough to cover the majority of cases. I’m literally playing solo Q myself. My movements aren't clear, I don't bring a full meta package, yet nothing prevented me from getting a solid 50% ER which is already above what devs are aiming for the average player. So as much as you can say you can comfortably play without tunnelling, as much as I can say it's not an unmanageable thing.
If a player is extremely casual, they shouldn’t expect average rates. Because SBMM doesn't work in this game and you would likely be put in a place with a more experienced person or some cursed region and busted mechanics hell. Casual players should ask for more opportunities to play casually rather than asking for hand hand-holding mechanism against other players just because they handicap themselves and expect others to do the same.
If top cap players in more sterile conditions like the same skill set, no repetitive perks showing killer can’t function well without tunnelling, then it's true. Do you like it or not, but their showcases have more validity for consideration because they at least try to manage balancing in custom while ordinary matches can’t do this more cleanly. They are providing more cold facts.
Do u wish to balance the game, or balance the game around being broken? It's a huge difference. If you're asking for the last one, I’m not sharing your principle.
When this game has more “sterility” in a play, maybe it would be an opportunity to actually prove that you can balance anti-tunnel PTB around. Right now the only argument is literally:
“But I can play without it”
And I can play with it as a survivor. Wow. So who is right?
“But many people wish for it”
And many people don't. Wow again, who are you gonna prioritise then?
It's impossible to present such argumentation objectively. They are still about emotional sentiment.
Tunnelling is about capitalising mistakes.
No, it's not.
Not when it's a decision the killer can make in the lobby. And that's the tunneling that people complain about.
This isn't "I got lucky and found you later", this is "I'm conditioned to go immediately back to hook when the notification tells me to and chase the person to death".
It is not a mistake to be found first. Period.
And you can't claim that it's a "weak link" because you have only chased the first person you found. It's mainly RNG at the start of the match who that is. Even if the killer chooses that person in the lobby.
And you recognize this:
You can tunnel and lose because we're holding too long a chase and the survivors capitalised mistake.
Yes, if you have a survivor that can maybe survive long enough, which involves a host of factors including RNG because of maps, killer kits, matchmaking, and teammates. And you can drop chase, but here's the thing...
All roads lead to tunneling being the "correct" decision:
If the first chase is short, "oh good, I can get this survivor out of the game easily. I'm going to tunnel".
If the first chase wasn't short: "in too invested in this survivor and need a comeback. I'm going to tunnel".
And it stops being a strategy if there's no chance the player is going to change tactics. If everything leads to tunneling, and for many it does, then there's nothing that the other team can do to change that.
"Strategy" as a concept heavily implies that you can change that strategy based on outside factors. In DbD that might be map choice, or mainly, how your opponent plays.
And for survivors this does happen: you can plan to gen rush, but if the killer chases you, you have to switch to evading. For killers who tunnel excessively, they can choose to tunnel every single match and survivors have nothing they can do to change that.
And that is the problem. One person doesn't get a chance to play the will rounded survivor experience that should include things like gen repair, rescue, healing/recovery, as well as killer interactions like chase.
And that's because there's no limit to tunneling. No restriction, no downside. And for a lot of people, the only result is boosting their MMR leading to MMR and other balance complaints, simply because they're in over their head.
Those limits are what people are asking for. Those limits are absolutely necessary for game health at this point.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4016006#Comment_4016006
you misunderstand me, the reason i ask this is because i have an escape rate of 60% escape rate. 20% above to the 40% mark bhvr aims for. if killers getting 20% more than the devs aim for and that calls for a nerf then shoud we nerf survivors too?
What's the flavor of the month this time?
We've already addressed gen speeds, dead hard, DS, dead hard again, MFT, circle, medkits, prove thyself, BNP, maps, tile chaining, adrenaline, hope, distortion, excessive hiding, and go next.
Off the top of my head.
So, what's the excuse this month?
Or can we finally address tunneling after 9 years for once?
(The answer, apparently, is no. We have to have the 478 thousandth whataboutism conversation instead)
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015997#Comment_4015997
am i reading this right. extreme cases where killers are getting 80% to 90% kill rate being inflated by tunneling…so remove tunneling and slugging to see an accurate statistic? does this apply to survivor too?
Sure, let's address tunneling and slugging and see an accurate escape rate for survivors too.
-
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015919#Comment_4015919
You can play differently, you can adapt to any tunnel changes, even if you didn't think you can. I promise you aren't as bad a player as that, so so believing that you can't adapt or function if they do literally anything about this issue.
I bet you can do absolutely the same with tunneling, as me and many other players who also play survivors do on daily basis. I adapted to already existing reality, not my issue you personally struggle with it
So, your only response is to confirm exactly what I said
You will adamantly refuse anything simply on principle, no matter what the details are, or compensation.
Your feedback is simply "no" regardless of the question. Unless it makes the killers job easier.
-
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015902#Comment_4015902
So just because I told you can’t really balance concept of anitunnel, it canceled everything I was talking about how unbalanced this PTB was with provided examples? Like haste builds on already fast killers? Poor pop incentives? Hardly working braindead base kit bbq? Heavy nerf of slowdown and shadow buff of genrush? Elusive abuse? Braindead ghostnotes which with combination of lightweight and sprint burst a new rat meta? Simply a death of any way to create pressure for killer aside of raw chases?
Yeah sure. My post wasn’t about idea how to push weird anti proposals. My post was about how unbalanced this concept is from the ground and that the game should focus on solo QoL instead. That’s the point — I was talking about how this concept works just as braindead tag shift meta rather than actual QoL, but it’s straightforwardly hard for you to accept that idea of anti tunnel from the ground is breaking balance in the gameLike haste builds on already fast killers? Poor pop incentives? Hardly working braindead base kit bbq? Heavy nerf of slowdown and shadow buff of genrush? Elusive abuse? Braindead ghostnotes which with combination of lightweight and sprint burst a new rat meta? Simply a death of any way to create pressure for killer aside of raw chases?
All of this is just doom posting speculation. You've already decided that you don't like it and are working backwards from that conclusion to make up anything that cancels it. Including claiming the opposite of what's literally in the patch notes:
Like haste builds on already fast killers?
Has nothing to do with anti tunnel. If anything, haste got the same treatment as anti tunnel, where "addressing haste issues" like stacking, was proposed, but pulled because people screamed. In fact, hate was demanded to be addressed "because haste is too powerful" and "hate stacking breaks the game", until they went to fix it... Then they pulled the plug on it because people screamed (sound familiar?).
In reality, what the loud people wanted was MFT and hope deleted and not touch killer... Which, come to think of it, is exactly where we are now, isn't it?
Poor pop incentives? Hardly working braindead base kit bbq?
These are just examples that people are manipulating the devs and lying their asses off to get what they want. People have claimed for years that "spreading hooks needs to be incentivized", and "reward me for not tunneling", and "make base kit regression better and we'll tunnel less'.
All lies.
Because when the devs listen to that feedback and give exactly what people asked for with it, now it's written off as "nothing" and "garage". Most disingenuous crap I've ever seen, honestly.
Heavy nerf of slowdown and shadow buff of genrush?
This is just making things up, move of that is in the patch notes. Regression was buffed with ruin and base kit in this ptb, and, for the record, ruin buff made it live.
Gen rush buff? The biggest thing you can do to prevent gen rushing is not wait around a hook and go chase someone doing gens. This also touches on something I'll address later.
Elusive abuse?
I saw one issue with elusive that's easily, actually trivially fixed, depending on how hard it is to code: making them not attackable as well as no collision. I've been saying for years that collision isn't the problem, but apparently they didn't listen
That doesn't mean the system is bad, just needs a tweak. Calling it abuse is because, again, your looking to pull the plug on everything from the start.
Braindead ghostnotes which with combination of lightweight and sprint burst a new rat meta?
Which is it? Gen rushing buffs or are people hiding (despite anti hiding) and not touching gens?
You're so panicked about this, you can't even finish a paragraph without contradicting yourself.
Simply a death of any way to create pressure for killer aside of raw chases?
This, right here, is the reason people are panicked: you cannot think of any other way to play the game at this point
After years of "lul survivors just can't adapt", and "git gud" in nerf patch after nerf patch, the single most, biggest reason people don't want anti tunnel is exactly this:
You. You don't think you can adapt or play in any other way.
@Firellius said it: "you've tried nothing and are out of ideas."
The idea of leaving a survivor on hook, who physically cannot do gens, and stopping gen progress elsewhere isn't just a concept that's foreign, you can't even consider it as an option at this point.
Tunneling had become more than a crutch, it's literally the only way that you, and others, can even consider playing the game now. Which would be fine, if it actually drove gameplay and interaction, but it does the opposite.
It distills the entire match down to one simple formula of "can the killer hook someone out of the game before about 4 gens are done". Killers who do this excessive are creating a race condition on the match, then immediately complaining about the race they are solely responsible for.
Killers create the gameplay. Unless the survivors have something to do, they will do gens. And since literally any other option survivors might choose to do gets deleted, then the only option left is gens.
You can play differently, you can adapt to any tunnel changes, even if you didn't think you can. I promise you aren't as bad a player as that, so so believing that you can't adapt or function if they do literally anything about this issue.
-
@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4015490#Comment_4015490
i can see the bigger picture. and the bigger picture is removing tunneling will not stop people DCing because people will DC over far more things than just tunneling
No one is looking for a single "one size fits all" answer that once and for all ends people giving up. That's completely unrealistic.
People do disconnect for different reasons, and people haven't gotten more petty over time.
You were actually pretty close to recognizing this in your post earlier:
its impossible to know for certain what built up to the ragequit
Built up.
Frustrations build to a tipping point. So does exasperation.
You know what doesn't "build up"? Pettiness. You don't just accrue pettiness and BS reasons.
You build up frustration about the games health, about not having an actual chance, not being able to play the game, or just "it's been three days and two dozen matches, I just need to get my glyph FFS".
Those are things we might be able to do something about, even if partially or slightly. At least, we should be able to, except the loudest voices are screaming no, and most of those same people are also screaming "punish them" as well.
Or, I suppose "punish them harder" since "go next" has demonstrably not fixed the issue, and hasn't addressed literally any of the root causes either.
-
@Raccoon said:
If BHVR apparently pulled these changes due to Killer outrage, what makes you think you'll ever see them come to live?
I doubt any attitudes are going to shift.
Because the actual goal here, for some people, is to keep the buffs and eliminate anything that resembles a downside.
There's absolutely a very loud group that demands killer buffs, and we've heard the idea of "just buff killers and we'll stop tunneling. We're only forced to because we aren't strong enough" for years now.
Except, when they do buff killers, it generally comes with "lul, thanks for the buffs. I'm going to keep tunneling anyway." And the cycle continues. This is attempt number, about 476 of this cycle, and the devs still seem surprised Pikachu that people don't stop tunneling and camping whenever the flavor of the month is addressed.
So I suspect that people will actually fight to keep the base kit pop and BBQ effects, and (now that it's demonstrably worked) loudly shout down any downsides in the process.
So if any "changes" do make it through, eventually, it'll be killer buffs (which, the ones we saw on ptb were fully compatible with tunneling. The only thing holding them back were the downsides of not being able to regress after a death). The "anti tunnel" downsides will be about as useful as AFC, if they implement anything at all.
-
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014775#Comment_4014775
Pretty sure just about everything gets adjustments from the ptb. No one expects everything to go live as is. And then it gets adjusted again in a fix. And again, in another fix. But adjusting and nuking aren't the same. You want to talk about whining. The nuclear response was likely because of popular streamers and social media posts that cried endlessly, not because of data.
Just a note about data:
It takes them at least 6 weeks, sometimes 3+ months, to "collect data" on things they tell us about. There is zero chance that a limited PTB that was live for 48 hours gave them anywhere near the data they could use to make this kind of decision. So just from that alone, it's 100% from the outcry.
For comparison, there is, in this exact thread, a discussion about kill rates for Freddy. That rework was 8.5.0 (January 8, 2025), and the data we have is from January through March. The argument is that over 3 months, survivors "didn't have time to adapt" to the Freddy changes and that's the reason his kill rate is astronomically high.
So, why is it then, that if killers appear to be overperforming, it takes months of "adapting" and months of data to come to a conclusion, yet this patch took basically hours to come to the conclusion that players not only couldn't adapt at all, but the data from 48 hours is somehow rock solid now?
I don't buy it for a second. I don't honestly believe that players were "incapable of trying to learn something new", they just didn't want to. That was literally the feedback people gave, in loud voices: "don't fix it, we didn't want to change how we play".
-
@CorvidXCVIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014884#Comment_4014884
>Because the "likelihood of losing" is very different, and in some cases highly subjective.
Absolutely. Sometimes a killer can pull off a comeback, sometimes survivors can too but it requires either teamwork or a perk being in play but that's also sidestepping the point.
>There have been posts about this before, with people unironically asking for "killer would be able to abandon if a gen is completed before a hook". Or just simply "the killer should be able to dc without penalty at any time for any reason"
Oh I don't doubt it, but I haven't made those points, I wouldn't because that's too far in the opposite direction re. what is or isn't fair game for abandoning.
The point is if a player is in a situation in which they feel they have absolutely lost the game and the only thing left is either bleeding out, watching an animation or in the case being discussed, watching other people walk out the door, is there really any harm in conceding?
The only issue I can actually see coming from this is whether or not it counts as an escape for the survivor.
The point is if a player is in a situation in which they feel they have absolutely lost the game
The problem here is the "feel" part. And that's where the slippery slope comes in.
We've already moved from "there's literally nothing, actually nothing, zero you can do to progress the game" to "I can do something, but I don't want to, so let me out".
Which applies to nearly anything. When does the slippery slope stop?
- I'm getting tunneled out, just let me go next. We hard punish this "go next" mentality, but should it just be abandon?
- A gen got completed before first down, should the killer be let out of they feel it's hopeless?
Both of these players "feel" they've got no chance, and the match is over. But that's not necessarily true, and it should be played as far they can.
I don't personally like the option for abandon, but here we are. I feel like posts like this are dangerously close to breaking forum rules about encouraging bad behavior by disconnecting, personally.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4014861#Comment_4014861
and the killer experience it more often, so i guess it makes it up for it..
but that was not my point, read CorvidXCVIII's comment
And the Blood Warden is a strawman argument, all survivors 99 the gate, making Blood Warden useless
You're inherently assuming that the gates being open means teabagging.
Not everyone does that, and people will also wait at the gate to make sure everyone gets out, and just leave if the killer shows up.
It's not a straw man, I'm not saying you said this, I said it's an option. It's a fact of how this perk works. The counter play isn't even in the cards because we're talking about open gates already, which is what the perk is designed for.
There's also killer powers now that will block gates if survivors are hit near them. Wesker, Slinger, and Knight at minimum. Not to mention that cocky survivors can be lured into making mistakes, and lead to kills in the end game.
Which, again, all of this is BHVR:s stance: just hit them out.