XLbuff
XLbuff
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021771#Comment_4021771
Two things:
First off,
Stick instead of carrot for killers.
The "carrot" doesn't work. They've spent 3 and a half years improving killers individually and collectively, and successfully increased the kill rate to 60%.
They've tossed out bushels of carrots, and even had some pretty egregious issues that made it live for various lengths of time. (Cobruption/gen kick meta, Uber thrill, and individual killers at launch come to mind).
You know what's happened every single time they gave out those carrots? The response was always "thanks for the buff, now I'll use it to camp and tunnel more". Every time.
There has to be some restriction that prevents this from being the only strategy that people ever need.
And, I find it interesting that the "but I need to be able to express my skill" crowd goes silent during tunneling conversations, and everyone generally recognizes that spreading hooks demonstrates more skill than hard tunneling. That's interesting.
Two,
It's not a punishment. It's a restriction, or it could be if people actually allowed them to.
I wonder if we would have had the "conspicuous actions" change of people had cried and used this language before 6.1. Because adding the conspicuous actions and, specifically, disabling tunneling perks in the end game were good changes for the health of the game. And I'll stand by that like I have since they announced it.
But, in modern lingo, turning off tunneling perks in end game is exactly what people are burning the forums down about, isn't it? It's exactly "punishing survivors for progressing their objective", if you use that wording.
But just like that was necessary, so it's hard tunneling restriction. Period. For the health of the game.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough in the other comments and people keep clinging to carrot like rabbits, having their own view on it. My english is far from perfect, but I will try.
I do not think individual killer buffs, any perks or base-kit band-aids will ever change fundamental flaws in core game mechanics. Only actual changes to core game loop can actually fix issues. If devs want killers to hook different survivors then it has to be the goal, this goal should be rewarded, not with some BPs and a bit of bloodlust, it should be game-changing incentives. You as a player should want to play this way, not restricted to.
None of other changes will matter long-term. People complain about tunneling from the beginning and they will complain after next patch, and other patch and after another year.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021771#Comment_4021771
There is a small carrot and no stick. A stick means punishment. You can still tunnel and there will be no punishments. The fact that they're even giving a BP reward is noteworthy because they could have given nothing. Like I said, plenty of people already played this way. It's not that hard.
It's not that it's necessarily the intended way to play, it's that tunneling has become too rampant and players are now miserable. If it happened here and there, fine, but it doesn't. And it's too easy to do for how much it ruins everyone else's match.
We can never even get to a ptb without all this doom and gloom. It's just everyone latching on on to some terminology (I've heard "carrot and stick" 50 times this week) and piggy backing off of each other's hyperbolic panic. Nothing will ever improve in this game if this doesn't stop.
Of course nothing will ever improve, because devs have made perks as band-aids for years, then add versions of them as base-kit and never change core game mechanics to give killers game-changing incentives. And people on forums keep defending their band-aids as if they are good in the first place.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021771#Comment_4021771
Unfortunately they can't do much about the game's design because even trying something out on the PTB causes killer players to lose their collective minds.
If these changes go live without any modification you will be as free to tunnel after the update as you were before. Choice is not being taken out of your hands. Giving individual survivor players some tools to counterplay a killer who wishes to tunnel does not equal punishment. Punishment is blocking gen regression or bumping up gen repair speeds if tunneling conditions are detected - both things killers complained about and got dropped from consideration as potential mechanics.
Yeah, see, that's what I mean when I say I don't understand when people defend bad game design.
You might not understand, but you start to contradict yourself, just trying to justify these mostly useless changes that will make the game less fun for killer, but won't fix the issues. You might not see something as punishment, but that's exactly how developers balance these things. Don't do this or a stick. Not like "there's different way and it's more game-changing", not a carrot. It doesn't matter what you consider a punishment, the approach is the key.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021766#Comment_4021766
The pallet update just happened and everyone is talking about it as though the game has been totally ruined. There's every indication they're going to get reduced anyway.
What direction? It's some minor buffs. They're trying to do something for players who've been unhappy, complaining, and quiting for years. You do need people to play survivor too. I play it less and less. A lot of my friends are either playing more killer or leaving. There can't just be killers.
There are already body blocks with the basekit BT though. If someone wants to use their protection on that, let them. Then down them again. That's an open invitation. And yeah, specific scenarios. I'll use my BT to body block if my rescuer is on death hook and I'm not, but for the most part, I'll take my assistance and leave. Most people will, and it's the average, normal players that need the help most.
There's already several lengthy discussions about the survey. Everyone has made their points. I'm in the camp that the survivor issues are what they want info on right now, so that's what they're collecting. There is no conspiracy against killers. This is one game, one playerbase, and many people play both roles. To think there's any bias (aside from profit) is just absurd.
I already said what direction. Stick instead of carrot for killers. I don't understand when people defend bad game design.
There is nothing meaningful behind hooks for the main goal of the killer, no game-changing incentives. If people can win faster without hooking different players, but that's intended way to play in devs minds, then it is definitely the game design problem. And such survivor buffs, perks or killer nerfs not gonna change much long-term. It just makes the game more restrictive, less fun, more mechanical "play by the book or be punished" chore. They don't provide attractive alternatives to what they're trying to fight with such balance attempts.
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@MDRSan said:
The changes they'll be testing on the PTB are the most toned down, light touch, completely benign changes they could possibly do and still have any claim that they're there for anti-tunnel purposes. This is literally all carrot and no stick. Is the complaint that it's not carrot enough? Is that how we define something being survivor sided now - killer buffs that aren't big enough?
These proposed changes do not punish tunneling whatsoever. What actual negative impact do you think it's going to have on your games as a killer?
I don't see the point in going into in-depth specifics before PTB. But 30 sec base endurance and 10% haste, killer aura with body collision back. I can definetly see how survivors can use it not for anti-tunnel. Here's one example for you.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021758#Comment_4021758
I don't see how any of these very scaled-down measures could hurt me as killer. They might help me a little as survivor in very specific situations, against certain types of players, but this narrative that everyone plays "optimal" isn't true. Hard tunneling happens in maybe one in every 5-10 of my survivor matches. Plenty of people already don't lean on cheese strats.
I'm pretty sure most people, when starting a game nowadays, will look up some guides, especially for a game that has basically nothing built-in,. Even more so if they're having trouble grasping it.
Again, unlike the previous ptb, there is no punishment. That's like saying the basekit BT or the burst of speed after being hit is a punishment. It's just part of the game, and Elusive would be too, if it can get to live.
And editing whole paragraphs into a response that's already been replied to is very disingenuous.
Good for you, I guess. But I was trying to express my concern about devs direction and tbh don't want to play as killer already because of pallets alone. When dev talked about slugging on The Game map during livestream like he doesn't know why it happens so often and chat spammed PALLETS, yet he saw it but openly didn't understand is kinda concerning.
Judging by the upcoming changes, things will only get worse. I don't think that you have to play optimal as the killer if the changes will go live to face bodyblocks or some other unfair stuff at times, maybe in specific scenarios, but still.
Not sure what you mean about editing. Only added part about surveys before I've seen your response and edited my post to "recent and upcoming" to be more clear and avoid misunderstanding.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021743#Comment_4021743
The camping changes are not impressive and a new killer who doesn't know the camp meter exists is gonna learn the hard way either way.
New killer players according to data trying to tunnel/camp etc the most because it's logical to get one player out as quickly as possible to win.
Is it the most logical, or did they watch some streamers to figure out the game and learned it there? Because I started this game as a killer-only player and knew nothing but what I figured out, and I didn't tunnel, camp, or slug. I didn't even consider these things until I started playing survivor and they happened to me. I was totally puzzled by these things when I encountered them.
Instead of the game explaining "intended way"
The game is in desperate need of a better tutorial for both roles. I think everyone agrees there. But this is going to give new players an indication of what to do. If returning to the hook never reveals the location of the unhooked survivor it's no longer logical to seek them out unless you have a clear LoS. Players can still tunnel without punishment, it's just more difficult and potentially less rewarding. And if the tactic fails, those new players won't rely on it. That's the whole point.
But new players aren't the issue. They'll accept the game as they find it. It's people with thousands of hours who are too accustomed to these tactics that don't want to change.
I think the problem is that no matter how you play recent and upcoming changes will be noticable in a bad way. Players always abuse anything to thier advantage (I'm sure survivors will) or tend to choose the strongest options, especially when they feel unfairness. And listening developers who clearly show how they see the balance of the game, to be honest, discourages the desire to play the game as killer.
Idk about your new players takes. Most casual players do not spend time on guides and hate to be punished for something which seems logical for their role. I bet most of them don't even understand why people not on the ground after direct hit and run away with white aura and such things only get worse over time.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021737#Comment_4021737
The problem is the last PTB changes were atrocious and we fought hard to not get them implemented… and sure, we won that time… But now we have to do it again? Some of us are mentally exhausted having to do this every single PTB.
JCGlitchmaster explains it well why so many of us killer players (I am about 60/40 maybe? I play Killer when I am solo, survivor only with friends.)Yeah, devs clearly have a plan and their direction on the surface. They want such changes, because they want more satisfied playerbase, most of which are survivors (4v1 game) + the changes based on "why players uninstalling the game" surveys with options like killer unbalanced, tunneling and camping, no other side options, like any.
It's frustrating not because what they want to do, but how. Once again, a bad attempt to balance the game, not caring about the fun factor and what the consequences of such changes will actually be.
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@cogsturning said:
The incentives might not appeal to you, but what are the punishments?
New killer players would probably be the least affected if the new measures go through, because they'll just accept it as part of the game. They don't have ingrained habits yet.
Every change which devs are preparing for the next patch (may or may not be released as it is, sure, but direction is pretty clear) will make the game harder for the killer and easier for survivors.
New killer players according to data trying to tunnel/camp etc the most because it's logical to get one player out as quickly as possible to win. Instead of the game explaining "intended way" to them and giving them some noticeable advantages for hooking different survivors they will only be met with punishments when they're just trying to kill as the killer. It's confusing and just a bad design.
By the way, the changes based on "why players uninstalling the game" and the surveys with such topics NEVER included options about the actions of the survivors. It's options like killer unbalanced, tunneling and camping and general stuff like bugs. I guess killers just don't uninstall the game. 🤷♂️
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4021735#Comment_4021735
Those stream changes haven't happened, and may not even happen. They haven't even hit PTB yet.
Well, yes, but for now I just see the direction and it looks like devs are seriously ready to add these changes to the game.
I edited my post to "recent and upcoming" to be more clear.
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@Nazzzak said:
What recent changes are you specifically referring to? If the pallet density, they've set up a feedback sub-forum you can contribute to
From maps and pallets to next patch (changes revealed on recent dev stream). Some takes from devs based on their data was strange if not laughable. All the killer "fantasy" in the game turns into even more mechanical "play by the book or be punished" chore.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300149#Comment_3300149
As soon as you know deadlock is in play adjust how you do gens. Have multiple with progress on them. If you do it right deadlock will have very little effect.
As soon as I know deadlock is in play I fairly assume that my solo Q teammates probably will waste more time and die faster because of one perk that blocks the gen with the most progression automatically and it doesn't add anything interesting or fun. That's about it. Game just feels worse because of such perk designs. As if they are made to be annoying and make you play less.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299267#Comment_3299267
DH is now about skill (and lags). There is no reason to do anything now about it. Yes it's strong. But it denies other strong perks.
As for deadlock - it's also perfectly fine. The only possible problem with the perk is, that hard facecampers can use it for extra camp time. This can be fixed by reassurence (or buffing it slightly). Again. I see 0 problems with prolonging the game with a perk a little
DH is and always was about wait or bait clunky interactions that looks and feels silly.
Perks as a solutions to game problems is a different topic, but I'm not a fan of that mindset at all, especially when they sell them as part of licensed DLC.
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@InvadeGames said:
deadlock is a perfectly fine perk. The amount of whining that goes on in regards to every perk is ridiculous.
you arent punished for playing the game. there are potential consequences for EVERY action you take on both sides in this game. that is a fundamental aspect of the game. If you cant handle a 30 second block on ONE gen a couple times a match then you may be too sensitive to play a game like dead by daylight.
Somehow you completely missed my point and throw "sensitive" BS right away. 30 second block on gen a couple times a match makes it more repetative and miserable. Nothing more. Zero interactions, zero interesting mechanics, etc - boring, bad designed perk.
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@Tiufal said:
BBQ being a reward for "not tunneling" is a bogus argument. The issue is that its just much easier if you tunnel the first surv out and hook the rest, as you literally get them served on a silver plate as the first is out of the game quickly enough.
Then you get BP bonus of almost nothing from boring game with minimal hooks/points. I didn't say it was perfect, but at least it had universal reward for hooking different players, now it's gone.
@Zwergz112 said:
Grim Embrace, No Way Out, Hex: Plaything, Dying Light and Scourge Hook: Gift Of Pain reward you for hooking different Survivors but ok
True, however most of them are situational DLC perks. I think game needs more appealing and notable rewards/outcome for hooking different players in general. At least IMO this is a better approach than clunky "hit me, I don't care" mechanics.
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@Kasamsky said:
From a survivor point of view i find most newer killers extremly boring to play against. And that has nothing to do with how weak or strong they are. It just seems that looping and mindgames get more and more irrelevant for the gameplay. But that's what makes DbD fun. Pre dropping and running as far as you can is just boring as hell. When i face a Nemesis for example my brain always goes into ResidentSleeper mode because he always will have this win-win-win situation at paletts. You don't drop -> get hit. You drop -> get hit or he destroys palett with short recovery time.
And tbh i don't think it's healthy for the game to release a new Killer every few months. I would much rather see more performance/bug fixes and QoL changes. But i think thats a different topic..
Exactly. From a killer point of view I think it feels even more boring. Drop the chase = player will heal with boon, for example. It's like just run and eat some pallets until survivor is downed and if team is efficient enough gens will fly.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2647315#Comment_2647315
Tourneys are weird because they often have entirely different rulesets. I'll admit that I haven't seen a ton recently - but if I recall, certain maps, addons, perks and killers are banned.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2647348#Comment_2647348
Fun to me is when I feel like both sides have an equal chance to win, regardless of skill level. This is what SBMM is trying to do, but it's really difficult.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2647330#Comment_2647330
If I was in charge of balancing the game:
Rework maps.
This is the biggest problem right now, imho. About half the maps are at least moderately 'survivor favored' and there are several tiles that are just too strong vs killers without good anti-loop tools (House of Pain on Badham/Haddonfield, the 'barge' infinite on Swamp, certain spawns on Gas Heaven etc.). There are also a few (DDS) that need to be easier for survivors.
The reason that a lot of killers are considered 'good' often comes down to their ability to shut down these loops and/or traverse large maps easier.
SBMM is a different topic, however "skill based" matchmaking makes everything worse and out of place IMO.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/295549/anti-loop-killers-and-new-perks
BHVR have an impossible task balance wise.
SWF vs. solo is hard enough to balance in a way that is fun for killers, solos and SWFs.
Then you watch some very high level gameplay, where survivors know how to abuse pseudo-infinites and safe pallet loops - and killers without anti-loop can barely get hooks.
Anti-loop 'skillshot' killers seem to be their answer - which essentially encapsulates almost all the new killers after Blight. I don't like this, as it turns the entire game into an arms race between looping and anti-loop tools, and leaves more traditional killers (Wraith, Pig etc.) in the dust.
The solution...I have no idea. It's going to take a complete shake-up of the meta for survivors and killers.
This game never was and never will be balanced. Because of this, I've never understood why some players take this game too seriously. I would like fun game at least. Fun is subjective, but in my opinion holding W is not fun. Even more, it kills existing fun like looping or snowball.
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@WesCravenFan said:
I'm sorry the newest Killers are too hard to run forever by hitting them in the face with every conceivable pallet on the map.
Sure, because holding W, predrop pallets and heal with boon totems is far more fun for both sides.
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Sure, so killer sided with updates like Boon totems; Deathslinger, headpop Pig and Cenobite nerfs, etc. Try to play both sides enough, snowball pretty much ruined and gens fly. Killer mains literally quitting and playing survivor with current SBMM nonsense, because it's easier and not even close in terms of stress level.