lets discuss why are camping and tunneling considered bad?
survivors tunnel gens as killers tunnel survivors to gain an advantage. if a killer tunnels a survivor to make the game a 3 vs 1 it is seen as bad (the whole killers should go for hooks not kills mentality)...yet survivors dont finish a gen halfway leave and go work on another gen unless they are chased off.
killers proximity camping a survivor (especially when the other survivors are injured or there are gens nearby that are regressing/can be patrolled) or in the rare case of a killer having two survivors on a hook close to each other...why would the killer leave to go find another survivor? it makes no logical sense...if two survivors proximity camp a gen (1 leading the killer on a chase so the 2nd can loop back and finish the gen) why is it seen as bad for the killer p.o.v. but not from the survivor p.o.v. when it is the exact same scenario?
both survivors and killer are trying to do their objectives as efficiently as possible especially as their mmr rank rises if they want to get kills or escapes...so why is there such a double standard to camping and tunneling when both sides do it to a degree?
this new ptb patch is going to add a hook escape and perks to make repairing gens even faster so it seems like both objectives from the killer p.o.v. are seen as bad (here is your stick eventually you will get your carrot) so it seems like the developers are fixing the problem for one side.
what are the communities thoughts?
Comments
You're missing the point. I'm not talking about balance, I'm talking about theme - which are two totally different discussions that people conflate. The survivors feeling like they have to rush is a good game.
Honestly, if I was entitled as a survivor, I'd be asking for the opposite. Imagine a game where survivors didn't feel like they had to rush. That loops were so strong and the killer so weak that touching gens wasn't a priority. Killers can complain about gen rush, and some things like BNPs should be removed, but I'm not sure they realize what balance changes would have to be made to make non-gen rush strategies a thing.
You can do gens pretty well soloq, but there is no way you can believe that a soloq can accomplish gens with the same organization/speed as a SWF.
People need to realize it is impossible everyone can have maximum fun in a match.
Whether you value fun more than win/lose or not, forget about it and just move on next game.
That's your own opinion and who knows other will think same.
Rather ask for new mode because I think current state of DbD is stale than ever.
The problem is BHVR and their smoky view of how they want the game to be or whatever the target audience is. Casual ? Pros? SoloQ ?SWF? Who knows, but for sure, it's already extremely difficult to balance something asymmetrical, let alone when adding variations such as how to be able to speak via voice and coordinate or not.
As a community it's all a game of "we against them" but the reality of the facts is that BHVR IS the problem and their logic behind the game because it is impossible to balance something that is not balanceable. They tried the HUD but it was useless, even with the new HUD, SoloQ are ten steps behind SWF.
Yesterday I played with the Trapper, RPD West Wing Map against 4 SoloQ P60+. Result ? All dead without making ANY gen. It that the kind of gameplay BHVR want ? Fine, then balance around it
Next match i went against an extremely good SWF as Pyramid Head : result 1 dead and 3 escaped and i was about to go crazy, Again, is this the kind of game BHVR want?Fine, then balance around it
But THEY CANNOT balance around those two different kind of game.
The one and only solution is to remove the ability to create SFW (except for custom games) and balance it around SoloQ if, BHVR wants SoloQ to be the official game mode or If instead it must be SWF then the official ranked mode is the one where there are only SWFs and the game must be balanced around the SWF. Any other solution only does damage and leads to nothing
Once BVHR has decided which is the official target for the survivors (SoloQ or SWF), it will be possible to balance the killers, the tunneling, the camping, the perks, the maps and all the rest but as long as, in the same game pool there are BOTH SoloQ AND SWF, however much effort and ideas and suggestions and feedback you can give, nothing will ever change
Yeah and being the obsession is the only way to stop STBFL (coz no one runs DS anymore) in your control, so I've been taking those measures to try and be more altruistic with my build and serve as a distraction.
Of course SWFs can gen rush faster. However, the way you worded it made it sound as if gen rushing was rubbish in solo queue.
Correct. Distinguished Gentlemen want crop top Dwight.
French Maid Dwight would be even better.
completely agree with all your points...i would even say give decisive strike the 5 second stun after a hook as long as the unhooked gets no hit hit collision to try to tank hits that and like you suggested a basekit grim embrace would give killers a reason to go for the unhooker
Seeing your teammate get tunnelled at 5 gens is a near guarantee of an extremely boring match, with the exception of possibly one entertaining chase when it's finally your turn to get chased.
People will not take you seriously just because you said "survs tunnel gens" when actually the term is right, since "tunneling" is doing your objective as fast as possible.
I agree with what you said, the devs are doing nothing to help the killer with kills, giving some incentive that helps mixed hooks and discourages tunneling (without unbalance the game). While survs get more and more stuff to genrush.
also helps with making the matches less stale by trying a different build
but eruption led to killers going on chases because killers knew they had the time to juggle the survivors effectively
Camping is pretty selfexplanatory. One person (2 if you count the killer) is litterally not playing the game. This wouldn't be so bad in cases of end game where you already had a game but in cases of a single chase and the game is over for you unless the rest of the team throws the match to risk trying to save you it's clear it's a problem.
Tunneling is a bit more tricky. I honestly don't think tunneling is as bad as it used to be. In the past tunneling was really unfair. you could get knocked down a nanosecond after getting unhooked and the only effective ways to stop it were perks which forced you to play with the same things over and over again.
Nowadays with BT basekit you generally always make it to some sort of defence so you are playing the game.
There is technically nothing wrong with seeing the game as a series of 1v1's where the survivor being chased buys time for their teammate. But it is also undeniable that games where everyone gets involved are just more fun so we should try to aim for that
true, I often like running healer, but running an obsession build has been fun for a change
Your entertainment is not my problem, I don't play killer to entertain you but to have fun for me.
You are not having fun ? Not my problem
I play to win and use every tactic that I consider valid as, I imagine, happens on the other side, indeed I expect the survivors to do the same as me, that they are not interested in my fun, that they bring the strongest perks and play to the maximum to win.
Camping doesn't mean the killer isn't playing, he's playing and keeping an area and a target (and maybe even a nearby generator or two) under his control zone. I've recently started using Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine and I must say it works well, I keep myself slightly away so that the Scourge Hook does its job and, as soon as I see a survivor trying to save, I intervene by blocking the road and preventing the rescue or making a profitable trade hook or hunting doing the unhooked one if it is stage two
They are called tactics and strategy. Aren't they fun for survivors? Who care?
of streamers that tunnel? otz does on ocassion,trutalent as well, dead plays, pretty sure there are more
king wolfe, quiet kills, pro vengeance make their reputations on tunneling and camping
redgaming and potatolegion are the two that actually play for hooks and when they do it is usually a draw or a 3k depending on the survivors skill (which is how every game plays it does depend on the survivors skill which is why i say if the survivor gets tunneled then they need to run otr, ds, windows of opportunity hold w and predrop make some distance)
your build should make up for your weaknesses but some survivors don't see it that way
I would say tunneling and camping are tools that people should not be afraid to draw on but not be over reliant on.
Reds tries not to tunnel but he makes up for it with smart slugging. He also would camp someone to second stage if the other survivors decide to push gens over unhooking aka punishing mistakes. D3ad does tunnel but occasionally depending on gen speeds. His mechanical skill lets him win games most of the time.
King wolfe is famous for tunneling and camping but his awareness, footwork and understanding of his favorite maps is what leverages the odds in his favor greatly.
I was asking for a specific game or VOD.
Just saying, "They need to tunnel to win against these god Survivors" isn't really gonna do it for me.
The killers on these forums don't care about fun. They only care about wins. They won't complain about stuff that's annoying or unfun to deal with, but they'll yammer endlessly about survivors having a fighting chance.
Survivor complaints are predominantly about unengaging gameplay, but killer complaints are predominantly 'I can't win, therefor it's impossible for anyone to win'.
Yeah, people care less about killers' 'fun' when said 'fun' consists of a 4K and nothing else.
You are part of the problem
No, the problem is that you're so entiteld to pretend to dictate how i should have fun and how i should play in order for YOU to have fun and if i play for my own fun you call it toxic
I play to win, i play hard, i tunnel hard and i do everything i can to win and to have fun, my entertainemt is important to me, not yours
I'm a gamer exactly like you, i'm a paying cutomer exactly like you so..why YOUR fun should matter and not MY fun ?
THe first day i start to play at DBD i haven't said "oh let's see what i can do to make EmmaFrostyEyes and other survivors happy and having fun" i said "Ok let's win some games" and i'm pretty much sure you don't care about me and my fun either right ? Nor i do want that, i said it before, i do expect survivor to play rough and hard and do their best to win exactly as me
I care about my opponents fun because i know what its like. Its the biggest reason why I refused to bring dead hard (the old version and the new one), or something like noed or eruption when i play killer. I could care less if you tunnel to get wins if you care that much about winning so bad. However, your “Your entertainment is not my problem” is such a bad way of going about things in this game.
That's why tunnelling and camping needs big nerfs. I would like to see your gameplay without them.
See ? I don't care at all
Bring DH, BNP, Tbag me and write -rep comment on my profile..if that's make you happy good for you i'm not coming here writing "i'm not having fun because survivors tbag me" or "it's unfun and unhealthy they use BNP" or, "i would like to see your gameplay without DH".
This is the game, you play for fun and chat with friends and meme and dancing around ? Good and i wish you to find many games where you can have fun in your way.
I play to win, i'm competitive, i want a proper fight but then i do not cry if i lose and i have NEVER writen a bad thing in the end chat game because, when the game is over, it's over. It's like a boxing match, on the ring we do out best to win, then we hug eachother when the match is over.
And that's the problem and the issue with the game right now. Not the "fun" or "tunnel", the problem is that people like you and people like me share the same game and this one of the biggest fault BHVR ever done. There it should be a ranked mode ( for me ) and a casual mode ( for you ) and everyone will be happy
So yeah ask to nerf tunnel, gen kick, slug, camp and everything else but, we ( people who play to win ) will find a way to play in a way that you don't like because "it's unfun"
Tunneling gens is a made up terminology term designed in the killer rule books for survivors that they are not to do their objective, survivors should be wasting time opening chest, urban/self aware walk, follow killer with a flashlight whos chasing their team mate, hiding in lockers or standing at the hook pointing at it and allow them a free hook, thus invests a poor reason to tunnel/camp and raising their mmr getting high tier survivors(not swf) get steamed rolled and complain on forums that the survivors need more nerfing to their kits and perks, (lithe sprint burst and windows being the hot new topics of nerf because dh finally is buried in the grave. Maybe this may not help but maybe if they increase the amount of gens to open the gates to 8 or 10? Would killers be more happy cause am sure even with 4 people 8/10 gens even for sure would be nigh impossible to finish.
I'm tunneling and camping because it seems kind of effective. Survivors are in a 4-person squad, on comms, telling each other what they're doing, what they plan to do, where I am, who I'm chasing, where I'm going, what my perks are, making coordinated plays against me in real-time, telling each other where to go to get healed, "I'm about to go down someone come save me", asking each other directly for body blocks, you're hiding 10ft away as a hook a survivor waiting for me to walk away so you can get an insta-rescue, etc. Their logic is simple: if it helps them win and it's not against the rules, they're going to do it. Cool, then we're on the same page.
I literally camp and tunnel more now than I did when I was new at the game. I imagine the survivors moaning about it to each other on discord as I do it. I don't really play like this against soloists, but a large part of that is because I would never have to in order for the match to feel reasonably competitive.
Big difference here tho is, being on comms is effectively sanctioned cheating that requires you to use implements that exist outside of the game, but tunneling and camping is just playing the game in a way that's kind of annoying for the survivors.
If this is a game where you’re so competitive that you are comparing to a boxing match than thats really sad
1) lithe was never complained about at any point before the recent patches even with the perk not being changed at all
2) lets tunnel totems that will give us automatic escapes lol
"Tunneling survivors is a made up term designed in the survivor rule book to make killers play less effectively....", I'll spare you the rest, but I surely hope you notice the hypocrisy?
On another noteit feels like survivors complaining about the usage of "tunneling" for generators instead of genrush (which doesnt exist according to survivors) just because their own spells are being used against themselves.
Ill give you an E for effort and A for attempt but a big F for fail that all your trying to do is use what I say to try contradict and make up invalid excuse for tunneling/camping. How come there are killers mains out there who can get 3/4k with little to no gens no with a killer even if its not some A to S tier killer not being used no problem?
Sanctioned cheating?
And here I thought Ive heard it all.
😂
I don't care if you don't care if I'm having fun as survivor. On that I agree with you.
But you know who should care? BHVR. They do have to consider the fun of both sides. And if a large group of players say 'X is unfun' then yes, they should change it.
A weak killer it seems.
what specific game do you need for king wolfe 2, pro vengeance, or quiet kills? show me a vid where they don't tunnel and camp and have them explain why they are doing it... you can literally close your eyes and randomly pick a vid on their channels and get one.
trutalent? once again maybe at least half of his vids as well as him explaining why he has to? otz maybe a fourth of his vids?
deadplays more vs high level swf teams but yeah he mentions it.
unless any of the above mentioned arent high level killer mains i guess
You know what tunnelling a generator means?
A while ago, there were two BPS and a Flan being brought into a match against me playing Trickster as killer. With that many BP boosts, I decided to play for fun and points. I staked out one gen and refused to let them do that specific gen.
We just did some fun cat-and-mouse stuff where the survivors would try to sneakily do that gen while my back was turned. They had way better options to pick from, gens I was not defending, or even able to consistently defend, but the survs tunnelled that one gen I was defending.
THAT is gen tunnelling.
And it doesn't work, because the killer can keep that gen from being done, indefinitely.
That's why 'tunnelling gens' is a dumb term.
And a survivor can "chase for 5 gens", so? the survivors should, according to survivor logic, just tunneled another gen.
People just being salty other people say tunnel instead of rush (which doesnt exist according to survs) is hillarious. terms change, lol, remember facecamping?
I haven't ever heard of any of the first three.
Tru3 isn't really that good anymore, he plays like it's 2019. That's totally fine, it's just 2023 now.
Otz is pretty good, but he also uses a lot of really off-meta stuff a lot of the time.
D3AD is also good, but I've kinda grown to dislike him with all his "Obvious Toxic SWF Destroyed" videos.
You could try Hens, Zaka and KnightLight. Array is really good too.
Tunnel another gen, killer shows up, you have to switch targets because you can't tunnel a gen that the killer is on.
Terminology changes, sure, but not in the course of a week because three killer mains think they can make a point by using the wrong words.
Wouldn't buffing survivors if the killer hooks the same survivor back to back help? Let's say for example survivors repair 5-10% faster if the killer is not spreading hooks? Like wise survivors repair slower/Mini GE (gen block) if they are spreading solve the issue of tunneling. Suddenly tunneling is not the best strat and killer lower tier killers can finally get the buffs they need. Wouldn't game health be at an all time high? This idea took me 5 seconds to think of so please tell me I am missing something.
Side note - % subject to change/update.
Problem 1 is that when a survivor either throws themselves to the killer. Are killers supposed to just ignore the prey throwing themselves up or slug (which is often complained about)?
Problem 2 is those unlucky enough to run into the killer again. Despite them not specifically going for the unhooked survivor they found them after a minute or 2 without finding any sneaky teammates. Similar to the above.
Problem 3 the buff to gen speed doesn't solve the problem of 1 guy being chases the whole game or that it requires the others to be on gens. On the other hand adding a reward like slower gens would have to be better than having a survivor out, which would be pretty hard.
Having both would hurt tunneling but not really stop it. Still disappointed that most think tunneling is the only way to win.
Notice how the game doesn't have comms built-in, and you use external tool to accomplish that, and you do it for the purpose of gaining an advantage you wouldn't have otherwise. If there was any way for the game to somehow regulate it, you most definitely wouldn't be able to do it.
So really the people who use discord or whatever are the kinds of players who cling tightly to each others nuts, and will predictably coalesce around a survivor on their death hook. Two survivors trying to save their bud are two survivors not doing gens. The sooner I can get a survivor on their death hook the better, and if I can take them out of the game early that's great. But even if I can't kill them outright, one or more of their teammates will definitely throw themselves in front of me in these instances, and it'll take way less energy on my part to start and finish a chase than patrolling gens.
Also, since these kinds of teams are on comms, you get the pleasure of being absolutely certain that someone is complaining that they're being tunneled to their buds and begging for a save. To be honest killing their collective vibe is a legitimate component to winning, swf come in pretty confident/arrogant so it's really important to affect that as much as possible early in the match.
pro vengeance is the guiness world record holder for most kills in dbd and i think streak lengths if i remember correctly...and just listing tru3 otz and d3ad is 3 streamers who tunnel and camp...otz less than others.
have only seen hens play niche videos like holding survivors hostage for an hour with knight and how to bully low tier killers like legion...never heard of zaka and knightlight and array will give them a watch...do they never tunnel then?
Zaka and KnightLight are two of the best Competitive DBD players. I think they both tunnel out of habit, not out of necessity in most cases.
Array is a good Blight player. He also doesn't usually tunnel.
Oh, we're still on about the whole comms are cheating thing in 2023?
This is an entitled attitude though. If every killer made a post on this forum saying “flashlight blinds are unfun” or “head on is unfun” would you expect BHVR to change it?
BHVR know that camping is something they can change, because it’s unfun AND prevents a player from participating in the game, hence the upcoming mechanic. Tunnelling however does not prevent a player from playing the game in the same way that camping does. Hence why there are only deterrents against it, not outright preventative measures.
If BHVR balanced the game according to what survivors found fun, then killers would have to two hook everybody and the same survivor could never be hooked twice in a row. Which in principle, doesn’t actually sound that awful, it’s just in the current state of the game it’s impractical.
This is an entitled attitude though. If every killer made a post on this forum saying “flashlight blinds are unfun” or “head on is unfun” would you expect BHVR to change it?On the forum? No.
If a large amount of killers players expressed dissatisfaction with a mechanic (via surveys and other methods)? Then yes - see instablinds. The forum is an extremely minor subset of total player perceptions on the game.
As a multiplayer video game BHVR is bound to continually making the game enjoyable for its player base. Its an asymmetrical design, so they need to balance two different sides who are often in opposition to what should be addressed.
that is why i dont understand survivors demonizing tunneling and camping since they are efficient tools
still red has to use some form of slowdown when he doesnt tunnel which is slugging and pushing surivovrs to the second stage...i would put his skills near the top of the killers mmr
d3ad i dont blame at all since he seems to run into more mmr squads (and some blatant cheaters) who reach those high ranks
king wolfes footwork is ridiculous on his pallet mindgames and he loves to tunnel and camp...reminds me of monto in his mannerisms and humor
does monto play dbd anymore?
I'm sorry, I guess I haven't spent several years on the message boards keeping track of such things. Thanks for maintaining that effort for everyone else's benefit however.
I haven't really seen any other game that makes people to complain when they are focused, dbd community is strange.
You're welcome, although, I believe we determined that comms weren't cheating when the literal developers of the game said they weren't.
even streamers with thousands of hours do it to get the 3k more often than not (not that there is anything wrong with that)