Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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Literally just prioritize you and remember its just a game, theres no real stakes.
Im not saying don't have some empathy, but just keep it to where its basic decency levels. The other people are strangers and if they're being ******** over a game…why should you care what they say? Easier said than done, but thats how me and my brothers go apathetic. -
@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118980#Comment_4118980
The delay decreases the longer the beam is held up to the point where it can basically be placed on top of you and hit (this is obviously quite difficult). Otherwise I do generally agree with you. I do think its much more common to claim survivor skill issue than the other way around but accept that it could just be personal bias.
And During that time when the judgement is aiming the survivors are able to move and stay away from the beam. You do see the pillar as it's charging.
Disregarding my thoughts on the frequency of beams being literally dropped on heads, would that not count as skill then? The killer would have to both mess around with the aiming to get onto the moving survivor which as you say is quite difficult. It would be then the survivors skill in maneuvering vs the killers ability to correctly follow them and time it no?
Either way I've said my piece of telling why I believe Xendritch has a point.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118954#Comment_4118954
The best judgments are not just going for cross map snipes, they can hit you from close range with effectively no way to dodge. Even the snipes can be incredibly difficult to dodge if the judgment is good at setting them up and curving them in the right way. I agree that some players have skill issues, and anyone getting long range sniped while the judgment isn't zealous has them, but I rarely see that applied to killers. This is my primary problem with what they are saying, they see complaints from survivors about judgment (or any other killer) and immediately jump to those players having a skill issue but when they do well against a that same killer no consideration is placed on how skilled the judgment they faced was.
I'm not even calling it a skill issue, I'm just calling out a lack of basic sense from a vocal majority. At close range there's a delay before it can hit you, it's not getting dropped on a survivors head. Survivors have both time to see and time to move as long as you have room to move. Sometimes your gonna get caught because they curved and you didn't predict it, sometimes your funneled and then there's really is no hope to dodge, but a extreme, and I mean like 98/100 times, majority of the time survivors have the chance to dodge.
This is my primary problem with what they are saying, they see complaints from survivors about judgment (or any other killer) and immediately jump to those players having a skill issue but when they do well against a that same killer no consideration is placed on how skilled the judgment they faced was.
I agree people do this way to often, however there's that other side of the coin. I've seen good judgements face good, or at minimum cautious, survivors and the judgement is called having the skill issues because they couldn't catch the survivors. Basically it seems the losing side is always the skill issue. What I'm just saying however is that most people are calling judgement op while survivors have, to quote the above, "playing with their brain off issue."
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118934#Comment_4118934
And how was the judgment playing? I'm convinced people wouldn't admit a killer played poorly under any circumstances. Either that or they are just giving them far more leeway than they are willing to extend to survivors.
I want to show you why I think Xendritch is atleast somewhat correct.
One of my favorite killers is Artist. She also has map wide sniping ability, it's also by default visual across the map (albeit not as long) and with a large audio cue. The amount of times I get that first swarm from across the map is "yes". Survivors have ample time to not get swarmed and get a warning that I fired, if not exactly where 24/7, from the distance im talking about. This isn't as impactful because I need to double tap and people generally get the hint the first time, but now imagine if those hurt first time.
That image is basically Judgement. They have MUCH bigger tells yet people aren't getting the hint that when you hear or see the big light, don't be a sitting duck and move. Move randomly at that as this one WILL hurt. I get it's not possible to dodge every time, we're human and a smart player might surprise you with a trick or 2, that's pvp. I get that facing Judgement is a lot different than 90+% of the other killers, that's why I personally like facing Judgement while others don't. I get that people might think it's uninteractive, hell that's even fair as they're basically tossing things at you and all you do is dodge 24/7. But what I DON'T get is the fact that people call Judgement is op, oppressive, broken...you get the point. There's warnings and a very simple counterplay.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118670#Comment_4118670
Reading the aura's of players is not at all the same thing as reading the auras of static objects.
Double standards...
being able to run directly at a survivor instead of having to find them first is absolutely making the game easier, how would it not?
being able to run to yellow aura and pressing space instead of having to use your brain and think where is the material is absolutely making the game easier, how would it not?
It does make the game easier but you still need to chase the survivor, seeing pallets and windows does actually help in chase which is the a much more important interaction than just finding the survivor, the killer still needs to chase.
If you think one is hand holding than don't tell me the other is not hand holding, it is just double standards at this point. Personally I don't care much about elusive.
Double standards...
A window is static, if the survivor looks around they can find and memorize the location, usually at minimum for the trial. The survivors are a moving target needing to not get caught. You are practically pointed to a live target that's trying to escape. Even if they move you can easily see their location when you proc whatever aura reading you have unless they explicitly have something to block it. It's "double standards" because they're different roles with different levels of impact.
It does make the game easier but you still need to chase the survivor, seeing pallets and windows does actually help in chase which is the a much more important interaction than just finding the survivor, the killer still needs to chase.
You can use a plethora of methods to make chases easier including perks, powers, and simply herding the survivor away from those static resources. They can see the resources but if they can't get to them it's tough luck. You however can't use any of these without finding the survivor.
Not sure if I'd go to say it's completely hand holding, but killers are rapidly getting to the point of crutching on aura reading, not even counting judgements.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4118436#Comment_4118436
"Pushing looping as the only thing survivors are allowed to do (as we have begun seeing directly in the dev notes, straight from the mouths of killer content creators btw) dramatically hampers the possible tactics survivors could employ."
What?? Looping is not a choice a survivor can select whether he does or not. Looping is incentivized because it will eventually happen if the Killer f—ing finds the survivor, he's not going to drop chase because the survivor didn't feel like looping. A survivor HAS to at the very least be decent at looping because once a killer focuses on them, it'll be the only way they can effectively help the team, is by stalling the killer in the chase for everyone else to do gens. Rat behaviour is when someone constantly hides, taking no risks and doing nothing until they escape or get hatch.
And there are still ways of stalling killers aside looping, like going for sabos and saves, which at the same time also helps your team. But those will still require you to loop the killer, if the killer spots you before the save for example. It literally is the basic gameplay loop.
I kinda want to poke this. Yes eventually the killer is likely to find the survivors but previously survivors could delay that with stealth. This delay bought precious time which now is has become harder and harder. The current trend is pushing survivors to basically "loop or die" with little else because other tactics like stealth or even chaining tiles as shown with the logic of Knock Out is being hindered more and more lately. To quote the devs:
Dev Note: We want Knock Out to feel impactful in those cases where Survivors don't loop around pallets. We've increased the range to account for some longer loops, as this should only impact players who intentionally run away from a pallet.
Now... what to do about that Clown who's tossed the bottle down here at this pallet? Or that bubba who's ready to saw me? Or hell that killer who's got me exposed with Devour hope or something? Guess I gotta stick here and die cause I can't move somewhere better nor could I hide to avoid this situation in the first place, but I'm sure that guy with the flashlight will save me this time right? Third time's the charm right? Right?
Things are becoming…basic, for survivors.
And there are still ways of stalling killers aside looping, like going for sabos and saves, which at the same time also helps your team.
And ya know what a lot of killers call people who go consistently for sabo or blind saves? Bully squads. Which get complained about, sometimes with reason, sometimes not. But survivors getting pushed that direction doesn't seem good to me as either role.
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Theres a few that change on the season but a consistent one is that dolt who chases chases with a flashlight and fails to save or at worst hinders the runner every. single. time. Id get trying once or if the down is right there going for it, but going after a chase in progress repeatedly. AND failing repeatedly? As a killer they have my disdain, as a survivor they have my hate.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116306#Comment_4116306
Hahahaha so can or can you not land the ability ontop of a survivor? I want to make this VERY clear before I show you evidence so you don't just change your mind and say "I didn't say that" when i show you otherwise.
And i will be showing you but the killer is bugged atm since the 2v8 patch (typical bhvr) so we'll be waiting till that's fixed.
The parameters are roughly the same.
- Uninterrupted videos
- Mix of close and far beams
- Beams only
- No animation lock hits
However, NOW you've claimed to be able to drop beams on survivors heads, so take a guess how you have to hit them. That's right, you need to land those beams DIRECTLY on top of them wild survivors.
You LITERALLY have all my words recorded here. Your ABLE to quote as you've already proven. HOW would I be able to say "I didn't say that" when you have PROOF of what I say? Like really mate, think for a second before you leap.
What did they break? I've been on Valheim so I haven't noticed anything besides the beam being more slick in a custom.
Edit: I saw a post about said bugs
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116242#Comment_4116242
Wait not one has been able to land it ontop of you did you say?
Once again I can change that right now if you would like to play a custom against me, you clearly need to play against a semi competent judgement player.
######### r u on? Judgements power literally could hit a COD player it goes that insanely fast. It's designed for a fast past action shooter but the survivors move like snails with horrific movement.
You SAY that you can, You SAY you can record evidence, yet you STILL DON'T and once again go "come at me bro". Go to the wild fog, record your proof, drop those beams on ppls heads. SHOW don't TELL.
It's not in the least mate.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116027#Comment_4116027
How exactly can survivors stop you from just dropping it on their head? Have you been able to replicate this on survivor against a good judgement? Likely not. I don't think you've even ever played survivor against a half decent one of these killers.
Okay dbd is a pvp assymetrical? ######### does that have to do with what i said regarding survivor movement mechanics?
I didn't say playing trapper isn't fun i said PLAYING AGAINST, bro you keep misreading everything I'm saying and arguing about things I'm not arguing about.
By moving around before it reaches you? Like you see the light, don't head towards the light. Imagne another game with a big ol death laser from the sky, how do you not get hit by it?
Theres been judgements who curve, theres been one whos been able to return it back to them repeatedly, theres been a judgement whos used that weird add on that stops the beam on solids. Not a single one has been able to land it ON TOP me because im constantly moving. Direct on the dot target isn't easy. And honestly I don't think you yourself have faced a decent Judgement because looking at everything so far, you really don't seem like the dodging type. Yes this is me being petty cause you constantly assume things. I'll own up to it. Doesn't even make me wrong which is better.
It maters in the sense that judgement's power ISN'T designed for those fast pace action shooters. It matches the survivors mobility pretty well considering what i was expecting from bhvr.
I didn't say playing trapper isn't fun i said PLAYING AGAINST
Thats currently the only time you've actually been correct. Welp regardless of my mistake there ARE still people who enjoy facing trapper due to the paranoia caused by said traps. You've lumped up everyone together. Me personally, IDC as long as it isn't the same thing for 5 games in a rowish.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115864#Comment_4115864
Once again pointing ur cursor at a survivor and pressing m1 is NOT skillful at all. There's limited map knowledge, tile knowledge, pallet and window knowledge, hook knowledge, or most fundamentals that other killers have to follow required to use this killer. That is literally 70% of a killers skill right there. Judgement has to worry about one thing, and that's pointing his mouse at a survivor. Huntress needs to worry about a BILLION other things as well as pointing her mouse at a survivor.
DBD is not a fast pace action shooter, judgements power is designed to hit people who can slide and jump and sprint and do all sorts of incredibly fast actions. Survivors are stuck with big clunky character models with pretty awful movement and terrible acceleration/deceleration and directional change. You need to consider this when you constantly say "just dodge".
No most people find trappers powerdesign unfun, and the only reason people don't find the killer itself unfun to play against is that it's so weak that you can often stomp it which is fun. You probably find trapper fun because he's weak and probably rarely snowballs or gets kills on you or feels unfair cause his power is so bad. Does not mean the same thing as a fun power.
You said you would nerf old legion, skullmerchant etc. Or would you not? You tell me.
Is the beam instantaneously landing on survivors? You have to move it just like any game where you aim. If you manage to repeatedly drop the beam on top of their heads thats skill full, the survivors being dumb (mistake or otherwise), or a mix of both. Also the things you list are knowledge, not skills.
DBD is a pvp asymmetrical whos literally in its own category, it gets a variety of things, like Deathslinger has a litteral harpoongun, xenos tail acts like a midrange spear, Artist's crows act like cannons that go through walls. Judgements power is designed to hit people at a distance, its not overly complicated. Survivors can also move a lot sooner than the last second which contributes to "dodging". Do you know how many people simply try to move at the last second and get hit?
And some people DO find it fun by herding people into their doom, making painful surprises to survivors, or simply the thrill of winning despite using what everyone calls weak. Do these people not exist to you? Fun is subjective, you are not who decides whats fun for others.
As i said, quote me where I said those words. Im not letting you put words in my mouth, you'll loose fingers as my teeth are sharp.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Hey folks. I wanted to pop in here to remind you that we're all DbD fans at the end of the day. There's no need for arguing here. There are a lot of great points being brought up in this thread and there will be differing perspectives as folks learn the ins and outs of a new Killer, after all.
No one perspective is inherently "right", so I encourage you to focus on constructive feedback from your own perspective instead of trying to disprove the feedback of others.
For instance, have you noticed a shift in how The Judgment feels to play as or against since yesterday's update?
For what its worth, playing as judgement in customs just now, the controlling of the beam feels slicker for lack of better words. Like smoother but prone to be more slippery on my controller. I haven't seen judgement recent since i been doing other things.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115836#Comment_4115836
What do you think good timing means? It means timing the beam as it's directly ontop of survivors. Regardless it seems even you think the beam is undodgable if you drop it directly ontop, which you can do literally evertime.
And that's why trapper has to stay as the wprst killer in the game, because he's really unfun and would be so much more unfun if he was actually a good killer, but he's not. Judgement on the otherhand is arguably the best killer, which in COMBINATION with his ease of execution and anti-fun mechanics is why its so toxic.
Pyramid heads main strength is baiting his shot not actuslly shooting it. If you hold your power in the ground snd get close to ppl its unreactable thst way. Ofcourse a bot phead shooting max range is dodgable.
I think you are confusing unfun with OP. Old skull merchsnt 3gen wasn't OP, it was quite beatable with a good 4man stack. It was just incredibly unfun. Moonwalking legion also wasn't OP, it was uninteractive. So you're saying you would nerf uninteractive things? What about knight then for being uninteractive?
Good timing to lead the beam to where the survivor is heading, good timing to get them during/before/after an animation lock, good timing to get a lucky shot. "Good timing" is so vague that you can pull out alot not just "good timing to drop it on their head".
Regardless it seems even you think the beam is undodgable if you drop it directly ontop, which you can do literally evertime.
Yea no. First and most importantly, you CAN'T do it literally every time. You know this as well so i do not know why you type so. Go try this yourself with a survivor straight up next to you and running around. Second because the judgement is actually aiming and following a moving survivor thats their skill against the survivor. The survivor has the ability to move BEFORE the light is above them and if their close enough when the judgement starts charging…well as I said go try it yourself. Thats actual skill to make sure it hits and its neither easy nor guaranteed you get it less the survivor doesn't try and dodge. Sorta how PvP works.
…Woooow someones conceited. Trapper is unfun for YOU. There are people who like Trapper. Me personally? i just want a little something for him that keeps him him. I dont mind having to look for traps CAUSE THATS WHAT YOU DO AGAINST HIM. Like…counterplay mate. Theres counterplay. Your entitled to your opinions, but let me tell ya, Judgement aint in the top 5 for me.
I mean, i can often enough dodge effective point blank because im moving. Like, if you recall theres a delay before the damage comes in which gives ya time to…ya know… keep moving? Change direction at last moments? Like…idk how to explain to move around to make it hard to hit any better man. You can't dodge 100% of the time cause your human, I get that, but its not like its completely undodgeable even point blank. And even if its "hard" doesn't make it impossible.
See, YOUR definitions confuse me cause you talk like its so obvious that everyone follows your definitions. But i don't follow your definitions. I would very much call ol 3-gen merchant OP cause if you can hold the game for 40+ minutes doing jack all despite the survivors attempts…thats ****ed up. Doesn't matter if it was beatable, thats slowing the game to a crawl despite 4 people trying to get things done. Id call that OP and unfun. Aint mutually exclusive. Being able to get guaranteed downs from a relatively easy stab as old legions? I'm calling that OP as well as unfun, and i liked old legion bar the moonwalking bs. YOU seem to think a beam that requires skill and precision with survivors being able to react (HERE SPECIFICALLY meaning "before the column of light reaches you and drops death") to it OP.
So you're saying you would nerf uninteractive things?
Quote me where I said that specifically. I'll wait. Don't worry, by the time i wake up you'll still be looking.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115670#Comment_4115670
"If you drop the beam on top of them" aaaaand you've finally conceded my point. I'm saying that the beam is undodgable BECAUSE you can drop it right on top of them reliably. That's why it's got no counter play. Of course you have a chance to dodge it if the killer is stupidly shooting it from 20 metres away.
So what is the width limit for a killer with a ranged projectile in your opinion? And what's the related speed with this width limit?
I bet you think alot of killers are underpowered though, so why is it alot of killers are underpowered but NONE are overpowered? Unfair literally just means the killer has some unfair mechanic i:e, ignoring the chase skill of survivors completely, or having broken levels of map pressure. The point I'm making is that if your mindset is that a killer can never be OP, then ofcourse you think judgement is fine, your mind is completely clouded.
Ohh please, quote where you explicitly said THAT one to me.
You have said its 98 percent un-dodgeable via fancy angling, timing, positioning. You said you can reliably use the beam up close and in chase. You practically say it only takes a decent judgement player.
Not. Once. Did you say you drop them straight on the survivors, as in that big ol pillar shown while charging landing on top of them and firing. And even after that, im doubtful you can do so reliably as survivors can still move and stay OUT of the pillar. But the option to prove me wrong is still on the table.
As a side note, you've ousted yourself to not reading previous things as I SAID drop them on top of survivors before:
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114951#Comment_4114951
Mhm suuuuuure mate whatever ya say to stay in that nice dilusion.
I mean, lets list when its NOT possible to dodge the beam. 1. Your funneled into a straight hallway with no doors, 2. your in a animation lock, 3. they drop it legitimately on top of you, not a meter or 2, on top. I don't know a map where the first applies as none of the indoor maps don't have some type of door/vault and main buildings either have enough room to run in a decent circle or the aforementioned duck zones. The second would be a survivor thing cause why would you be in an animation lock far enough for said beam to hurt or close enough that you absolutely know its coming. The third is again, how are they dropping it right on top of you at a distance when you can see and hear it commin?
Now, i understand you cant dodge it all the time, we're all supposedly human, we make mistakes now and again, but its almost always POSSIBLE to dodge and it gives a big ***** of a warning.
Also are you proving my point? That PH'ds shot is more dodgable than judgemnts??
Your previous words:
The main counterplay to deathslinger and pyramid head in chase is not dodging because their abilities are insanely hard to dodge.
ALSO your previous words:
abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
ALSO ALSO your previous words:
That PH'ds shot is more dodgable than judgemnts??
Now, im not the sharpest knife but to me something looks funny here. Care to find the joke?
Strange how you'd bring it up now ain't it?
Depends on factors. Does it just reveal? Does it Damage? Does it "infect"? Does it build a meter? Theres SO many things to take into account that it wouldn't be cut and dry answers.
You'd lose that bet. I think most are fine. Like outta 40, it litterally only trapper i think is underpowered. Some could use some spicing up to make them interesting (merchant) or more like the movies (meyers) but overall? Killers be fine.
Dude if your going by "ignoring chase skill completely" need I remind you what happens when you land in a beartrap? Whats "broken" to you isn't universal ya know. You think dodging pyramid head's punishment is extremely difficult, I can dodge about 7/10 without thinking hard. Record is apparently 13 while tipsy.
Of course a killer can be OP, but right now? Nothin OP. I was around for the REALLY OP things like instant BNP, infinites, and the infamous 3 gen merchants and knights. Completely silent spirit (that was actually kinda fun to face as it provided actual scares), old ruin/undying/tinkerer combo, infinite mend and moonwalker legions. NOTHING currently in game compares to anything then. YOU seem to think judgement is op, I see it as different from the usual killers.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115558#Comment_4115558
The stuff you quoted means what? What even is your point? You quoted some random thing i said about pyramid head out of context and went HAHA I GOT YA.
I'm asking you what form of evidence would satisfy you because you said no to customs, you apparently only want very specific things and I gotta cater to all ur precious needs.
So if you can see it and you can move its balanced to you? So if i made a killer that shoots a beam 20 metres wide at you its balanced because you can see it and move?
Answer me this, are there any killers you would consider OP or unfair in anyway in the game? Any that you would nerf?
No I went and told you how the joke went but then had to spoil it explaining everything to you.
Very well, go into the wild fog and record, uninterrupted, rounds where you showcase HOW it's "98%" impossible to dodge judgements beam with all the fancy angling of yours. Make sure those hits DO NOT involve the three (3) listed scenarios. As a reminder:
- If they're in a long stretch of narrow hallway.
- If they're in an animation lock.
- If you drop the beam on top of them.
You also claim it's relatively easy to use the beam up close, show us your skills then. Give a show of mixing close range and far snipes. Beams only, no m1s as that doesn't prove how easy it is right? Keep in mind the above.
Now the hardest part is proof that the survivors are practically unable to dodge. As I claim that decent survivors who are paying attention can dodge relatively easy bar those 3 situations, you need to prove that decent survivors CAN'T do so. Make sure your audience SEES how it's impossible without those.
If you REALLY want to prove to me and the audience your right show us as both survivor and killer. Show how you as a survivor couldn't possibly have dodged that beam.
To summarize: Put your money where your mouth is. Everything you've claimed? DO.
So if you can see it and you can move its balanced to you?
Is judgements beam 20 meters? No it ain't. It's barely 1 meter and even with add ons and zealous I'm willing to bet it ain't no more than 3 meters. Were it 20 THEN I would agree it's not balanced because survivors would almost always be hit unless then run straight back and pray there's no wall. As it IS right now though, it's perfectly fine to me because I HAVE the chance to get the **** out of the way and it isn't large enough to SWEEP large swaths of the map. Like think of a broom ok? Now image trying to sweep sand with said. Now (hopefully) obviously you'd want to sweep the sand with the wide part with the brush. That would be your 20 meter wide beam. Current judgement would be like trying to sweep said sand with the handle.
Personally, to me no killers are currently OP. Yes even nurse and ghoul, you can loop a ghoul, you can run a nurse. Unfair compared to what you'd need to specify, like I dislike Hillbilly because compared to others with instant downs he doesn't really need to work for it as hard, I dislike the Spirit's add on that gives killer instinct when near a survivor. Of course there's things I'd nerf or buff. But you want to know something? That's just my opinions, my thoughts, those aren't straight facts. You are claiming that this new guy is crazy powerful with claims like he can't be countered in chase and being able to make it so its near impossible to dodge. When people point out obvious things you get mad and went to thinking people are either lying or (practically) noobs.
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@NeverSolus said:
Astonished ya'll are still engaging with this troll. He quite literally said none of us are comp level players and therefor don't matter, when the comp scene has been pretty unified about not being concerned about judgment. This is just a cry for attention. Even the people he is claiming are more important than us don't care about judgment.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114998#Comment_4114998
Also, yeah, Xen's right. Between animation lock being much much longer, and huntress having add-ons to correct for the animation lock, she feels much better. Huntress is easier to hit with at all ranges, barring collision obstacles.
I'm both bored and particularly curious about how far the illusion goes. Plus it's a habit of mine.
@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115268#Comment_4115268
I said you are able to abuse the killers more exploitable WEAKNESSES compared to judge not related to their projectile. IE deathslinger and p head being super slow and having limited range, having to deal with obstacles etc. And also having to do with everything else i listed previously.
No you are right it's USUALLY easy to see or hear. That does NOT mean it's easy to dodge. 2 Completely separate things, It's easy to hear when a ghoul is coming for you does that mean it's easy to dodge his attack? Of course not. Just because the beam is "physically" dodgable does not mean it's "practically" dodgable in a real game situation.
It's not a "come at me bro" but i get the idea of a custom or showing evidence could be intimidating if you don't have anything to back up your claims. It's quite easy for me to prove what I'm saying if you'll just let me show you lmao. I can prove if you want why the beam is practically nearly impossible to dodge with consistency with either video evidence or a custom, whatever suits your boat.
You know the stuff I quoted? That's NOT how that reads mate. Now who's the one trying to lie?
Well if you see it and can move, what's stopping you from attempting to dodge? Your really also comparing ghoul, who has minor auto lock with basically a hit scan, aka almost literally can't miss if he's pointed at you, to judgment, who has to AIM and control it so the big beacon of a beam hits?…Really? Yes in MOST situations it IS practically dodge able. People just apparently like to pretend to be Gohan.
And yes, you've been going "come at me bro" to me and xendritch at minimum. If you CAN record evidence THEN GO DO SO INSTEAD OF YAPPING RIDICULOUS THINGS. Like really. if it's so easy then GO DO it. Go record and show EVERYONE instead of "come see me in customs" cause that would help you better. And you said I don't use critical thinking skills.
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@Withered8 said:
I
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115171#Comment_4115171
I said hard to dodge not hard to shoot, completely seperate things
I'm getting hostile because you are either lying out of your ass or playing at a low skill level and making claims for low level of play which I am not contesting.
You can literally unadd me right after i just want SOMEONE to prove what they are saying, i can prove to you my points right now.
I said hard to dodge not hard to shoot, completely seperate things
...your words, yet again
abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
This reads as the shot itself is many times slower correct? Which means despite your claim people should be "abusing" that fact to counter pyramid head it's apparently very difficult also according to you:
The main counterplay to deathslinger and pyramid head in chase is not dodging because their abilities are insanely hard to dodge.
which doesn't fit with abusing cause if it's insanely hard to do it's not easily replicated repeatedly no?
Where the heck do I mention it being hard to shoot? And now there's no joke cause it needed in-depth explained.
I'm getting hostile because you are either lying out of your ass or playing at a low skill level and making claims for low level of play which I am not contesting.
Let's look at what's been said. Judgements beam is easily seen and/or heard for the average person. Going to say that's a lie? The beam is hard to use close. You claim it's easy, despite the fact that the killer has to do weird manipulating because it has effectively a min range, which is why I claim it's difficult and leaves most judgements effectively a 4.4 with no power in chase. Survivors can dodge the beam. You claim there's multiple ways to make it "98%" undodgeable, I've listed 3 where it's infact undodgeable and can't think of more because there's often plenty of room to atleast try to dodge without one of those listed factors.
I've not lied once this whole conversation as, to be blunt, it's not worth it. What could I gain when the truth hurts ya just as bad? I'm far from the best, but after near a decade of playing I'm more than decent if I pay attention which means I probably sit with the other 90% of players, just like you.
You can literally unadd me right after i just want SOMEONE to prove what they are saying, i can prove to you my points right now.
Practically going "come at me bro" does really entice people to interact with ya to start and even though I can, I'd rather not spend time cleaning whatever mess you might make. I also listed why it would be pointless already as well. If you could record already you'd already be showing your own proof.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115166#Comment_4115166
Both things can be hard to dodge, and one is still harder to dodge?? It's not a yes or no question.
The point is PH's shot is already hard enough to dodge, and we decided to add a killer who's even HARDER to dodge but ALSO has NONE of the other weaknesses that PH has. THAT is my point you seem to be avoiding.
Care to join a custom and let me demonstrate? I doubt it.
Now, this might be a me thing, but to "abuse" something has a requirement to be easily able to do and replicate. If these shots are hard to dodge its by the definition of hard, difficult to replicate meaning to me you can't despite telling me how you should dodge it. Which leaves me giggling when you go on with that joke.
The thing is though they're not that hard to dodge. Sure sometimes you'll get someone tricky and they get you once or twice, sometimes you'll make a mistake, or hell sometimes you'll have something else grab your attention at the wrong time, but to any decent survivor paying attention, its not that hard.
Ignoring the fact that unless recorded, which if you could you could already show how to make judgement's shots "98% undodgeable" and i can't record without it hampering my pc, the results of said custom would be your words against mine like it already is. Add to that you can barely go a conversation without sounding condescending or hostile despite people pointing out obvious things regarding this i both do not trust either of us to be honest (i can be very spiteful) nor actively want you on my friends list even temporarily.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4115040#Comment_4115040
Or you could use some critical thinking skills and clearly see what im saying. I said that THE MAIN COUNTER PLAY against pyramid head is NOT dodging it, not the ONLY counter play. It still is incredibly hard to dodge a PH shot. But somehow despite this, it's STILL easier to dodge than a judgement shot, especially if it's not point blank. That is even more indicative of and proving my point about the INSANE power level that judgement has.
Once again bro you're not account for the fact that the judgement player can be HALF DECENT at the killer. There’s plenty of ways to make shots 98% undodgable using correct angling, positioning and timing. It doesn't just involve animation locks. You're literally assuming that judgement players only know how to shoot in a straight line in incredibly predicable ways. Maybe the judgements you play against but not a half decent one.
Ohh the jokes not about "counterplay". The joke goes how you first say ph shots are "insanely hard" to dodge then go to how you "abuse" how its many times slower than judgements and adding on with how its more dodge able than judgements, all while harping on how "hard" it is to dodge these shots from ph. Least you stuck to your guns with it but makes me question how you'd "abuse" this since apparently its very difficult.
Of course im accounting for a decent killer, im just also accounting for a decent survivor too. Please tell an example of this "98%" undodgeable that doesn't involve one of those 3 situations cause, for me at least, as long as I see it coming I can attempt to dodge at the minimum. The only times I EXPLICITLY can not dodge is the aforementioned situations. Im not assuming just strait lines, im assuming curves, im assuming that weird add on that lets them stop and redirect, im assuming returning it back to themselves. Like, your not glued down are you?
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Well showing the oldest achievement I got plus the official stats at the time seemed like a good idea to show I've been here awhile but sleep is a must.
Will this do or is this a situation of your not going to believe anything anyway?
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114947#Comment_4114947
If you think you can't use judgements ability in a close chase sorry but it's just a skill issue. His power is a little harder to use up close sure but it still works just fine if you get the hang of it.
Yes just get out of the way of the death beam it's that simple to beat judgement right? For the THOUSANDTH time just because you KNOW its coming does NOT mean you can dodge it. You are assuming that if you know when it's coming you can't get hit by it, insane logic. If you think this come play against my judgement right now. But i have a feeling you won't, or you won't demonstrate your supposed counter play, or you've probably just never played survivor in ur life against a half decent judgement.
Also are you proving my point? That PH'ds shot is more dodgable than judgemnts??
Mhm suuuuuure mate whatever ya say to stay in that nice dilusion.
I mean, lets list when its NOT possible to dodge the beam. 1. Your funneled into a straight hallway with no doors, 2. your in a animation lock, 3. they drop it legitimately on top of you, not a meter or 2, on top. I don't know a map where the first applies as none of the indoor maps don't have some type of door/vault and main buildings either have enough room to run in a decent circle or the aforementioned duck zones. The second would be a survivor thing cause why would you be in an animation lock far enough for said beam to hurt or close enough that you absolutely know its coming. The third is again, how are they dropping it right on top of you at a distance when you can see and hear it commin?
Now, i understand you cant dodge it all the time, we're all supposedly human, we make mistakes now and again, but its almost always POSSIBLE to dodge and it gives a big ***** of a warning.
Also are you proving my point? That PH'ds shot is more dodgable than judgemnts??
Your previous words:
The main counterplay to deathslinger and pyramid head in chase is not dodging because their abilities are insanely hard to dodge.
ALSO your previous words:
abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
ALSO ALSO your previous words:
That PH'ds shot is more dodgable than judgemnts??
Now, im not the sharpest knife but to me something looks funny here. Care to find the joke?
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114819#Comment_4114819
Uhhh how do you chase people at 110? Idk maybe using ur RANGED ABILITY LIKE EVERY OTHER RANGED KILLER DOES? Have you even thought through this statement?
The main counterplay to deathslinger and pyramid head in chase is not dodging because their abilities are insanely hard to dodge. It's using obstacles that death slinger can't shoot through, abusing range limits that judgement does not have, abusing their significantly longer cooldowns and punishments than judgement, abusing elevant against pyramid head, abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
Thing is, with judgement you CANT use it close up without MASSIVE finagling of the controls. So what your with is usually a 4.4 with no ability. Aka: long ****** chase. So, how quick was it again?
…i mean if they're hard for you to dodge i see where your problem with judgement lies. If those are the "counerplay" (Using walls to block, keeping the hell away from the killer so they have to catch up, "abusing" [you seem to like that word] deathslingers longer cd/reload [pyramid actually has a faster cd than either] [you can abuse elevation against judgement by going down when they're up they can however abuse it so that if they're down they hit up so wash at best]) to them then whats so hard about "getting the hell outta the way of the deathbeam" as the counterplay? Assuming no need for accessibility, you hear it and you see it from practically across the map. And that range limit means getting closer in chase can actually help, cause theres a min range limit where the judgement cant hurt you with the beam without weird movements like i said before. Which you can still look at while they're moving around.
Btw:
abusing the fact that a pyramid head shot travels many times slower than judgements.
thats a real fancy way of saying "dodge" aint it.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114927#Comment_4114927
My guy, you don't even have over a thousand hours in survivor. I feel heavily vindicated in what I said. Thank you for your post I don't think I could have come up with a better argument for why no one is realistically getting value out of salvation's cry.
you realize that thats the dbd notoriously screwed up stat tracker right?
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114811#Comment_4114811
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the point of contention just comes from different mmr levels. Since you are facing actual variety of killers instead of just the typical ones of ghouls and blights it's clear to me that to you, you are right. At minimal mmr where nobody knows what they are doing and you face a wider range of killers the perk is probably more usable. It's just at anything above starter mmr it's value becomes practically nonexistent.
Personally, I think its more an unwillingness to see the positive applications of things but very well. I feel the need to point out something though:
I may not be the best, but I've been here a very long time and know what I'm doing. Safe to say I'm out of starter mmr, even with the reset.
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@Withered8 said:
Huh are you saying judgement cannot occupy one survivor at a time entirely? Ofcourse he can he just chases them lmao, are you suggesting you can do a gen whilst being chased by judgement? Judgement can fully occupy one survivor whilst simultaneously harassing everyone else bro.
Blight can be countered in chase and judgement cannot, blight requires more skill the better the survivor, judgement doesn't care about survivor skill. It's that simple
Judgements cooldown on his power is 5 seconds not 10. Blight takes over TEN seconds to recharge his full power AND has a 2.5 second fatigue window, if you wanna play the numbers game it's not in ur favour.
I mean, how quick can you case a survivor at hag speed? Sure they can harass others while in chase but its a very obvious tell when its gonna happen. And each charge and fire of said beam slows them down, meaning more chase instead of more death.
What do you mean judgement cant be countered in chase, ofcourse they can. Can you counter slinger in chase or pyramidhead in chase? Yes you can, same as judgement. Pretty sure dodging and prediction are indeed survivor skills, which last i checked matters a lot to judgement.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114651#Comment_4114651
I mean, I like to know which way NOT to go to run into the killer. I like knowing where you came from to know whats probably been used. There are defiantly more things that mater than that.
Okay I'll try to explain again. You should not be worried about which way to go since you should be on gens not running around in a circle like a chicken with it's head cut off. You are actively throwing if you are playing in a way that salvation's cry is giving you value. Also again, salvation's cry is very short and does not give you useful information. You don't know how many pallets have been used and in what area since chase moves over time and it does not show you what pallets are gone.
But it does not let the other guy run the sure fire direction away, you have to steer yourself and probably eat that hook quicker than if you could pass by.
Even a bot does not have this issue. Seriously I cannot understand how you run into the issue of heading into the killer this often. Like the scenario you are proposing requires that a survivor be both blind and deaf, on death hook, not on a generator, right next to the killer, and that the killer would switch to you. The scenario you proposed is so convoluted that I think I can safely say that your teammate was leading the killer to you because anyone who plays like that is sandbagging the whole team. Also again it does not help with the finer details since in case you forgot it only last a few seconds.
Just for fun, what if the killer comes from the corner of the map with completed gens because the runner was making sure they're not leading them to finished gens?
Then who cares? Why are you also hiding in a corner of the map with completed gens like some kind of rat? Ever scenario you are proposing so far requires that any survivor who gets value out of this is actively trying to kill their team.
I will concede it IS practically useless on extreme mobility/lethality and snipers as your probably going down fast or theres no "chase" to proc.
I appreciate that you conceded on this at the very least. And for the sake of argument you are right that even with an undetectable killer they would still be able to see the survivor in chase. However like 80% of matches now are hyper mobility/judgment. A perk that does nothing in the vast majority of games needs should at least have a strong effect but this does not. It's a highly situational perk that only really gives value to rats actively trying to kill you.
I have. To put blunt and simple Bond is a perk specifically for you while salvation is for everyone else.
Okay then how about this. Why not just run We see you? It's far less situational than Salvation's cry, helps the whole team, and if players are good will realize that this means the killer has an aura build and can play around that.
Also again, everyone else does not need to know where the killer is (for five seconds) if you just don't lead the killer to vulnerable survivors in the first place. Even if this means you need to eat a down.
Okay I'll try to explain again.
Mate. Lets assume im already on a gen like a sensible survivor and i hear the heartbeat coming. Salvation shows where they are so tells me "Hey don't go that way, thats where they're probably coming from". Thats what im getting at. Im NOT running around aimlessly as soon as i hear the beat, but knowing where they are with the beat can help me decide where NOT to go when needed. Additionally since I am show where the chase started and ended i know atleast 2 areas heavily likely to have less. Short procs don't really mean as much as you think. Im always looking around when working on gens, cause lets face it thats dull to simply stare at the gen waiting for skill checks.
Even a bot does not have this issue.
You'd be surprised what bots do. But anyway its because A: people lead the killer to me so damn often (solo for the win), B: this whole conversation is me pointing out that salvation isn't complete "hot garbage" like you claim, C: Indoor maps and stealth killers exist, D: People play differently so everyone doesn't always do the same thing (Ex: the killer always going to gen A from path 4). So yes, I can see value in salvations cry even if its a meh perk. Tell me, as a injured survivor on deathhook would you go to that area with a gen being worked on (lets say 50ish progress for arguments sake) knowing theres pallets and such there? I sure would. Now if they have bond then yes, they can move themselves, but If you have bond then they have to either have to hope and pray, hide nearby (itself its own gamble on if the killer stops and searches or not) or skedaddle and hope they don't go the wrong way. Salvation can remove the "wrong way" part.
Then who cares?
You obviously didnt read the whole "The runner was leading them " bit. Though i see where phone auto correct screwed up so fairs fair:
This:
Just for fun, what if the killer comes from the corner of the map with completed gens because the runner was making sure they're not leading them to finished gens?
is supposed to be this:
Just for fun, what if the killer comes from the corner of the map with completed gens because the runner was making sure they're not leading them to finishing gens?
I appreciate that you conceded on this at the very least.
Im perfectly capable of be reasonable (bar 1 thing) even when i don't think if every scenario. Idk about your games but since the reset im getting alot more veriety of killers. Ghouls and blights, to bubbas and pigs. Even a hag and Krause (sadly not build variety though). And again, its not a great perk, but its still a potentially useful one to the team, and since im not a rat and get value if someone runs it, i think that last sentence is false.
Okay then how about this.
Thats a better comparison than bond. They both however have advantages over one another. We see you requires either the killer to be using aura (which admittedly isn't anywhere near a problem atm) or for you to use something to reveal yourself to the killer costing half your build with both. Salvation requires a "chase" to start and thats it. We see you is unarguably more useful but you have to make it work or rely on the killers build, salvation just does its thing as long as you can last 5 seconds.
Again, sometimes you gotta go where you need to to survive and eating a down isn't a good idea. Lets put a scenario like the above. A gen has alot of progress so you obviously wana avoid it, but your also injured and death hook and that gen is where resources are. Lets say you avoid it, you go down, get hooked and hear a scream as you die. Turns out the killer hasn't hooked you with pain res yet. Now that gen is regressed enough that when the killer comes its still not done and KICK it down again with pop (as i said, i got variety of killers, not builds sadly). Now its regressed and your dead, a worthless down. Sometimes your thoughts on that would be sound, other times it will backfire.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114619#Comment_4114619
They don't need to see you coming since that gives no value. The only thing that matters is making sure you aren't leading the killer to gens simple as that.
But you at the very least came up with theoretical reasons why someone would run it. None of them hold up to any level of scrutiny but it'll be fun to discuss them.
First off, bond lets you lead the killer away from someone who is on death hook, second instead of salvation's cry you can run shoulder the burden to prevent someone from being on death hook. Let's not forget the massive opportunity cost of running salvation's cry over other perks. Second, by the time someone is on death hook unless they are being tunneled out of the game at five gens you should already know where safe areas are. Killer's aren't going to the corner of the map with finished gens lol so you can pretty reasonably tell where the killer is and will be coming from.
Next there's the issue of you saying it doesn't matter who the killer is, because that's just wrong on so many levels. A bunch of killers have undetectable as part of their power so this perk just does not work on like a third of the killer roster or is unreliable at best. Let's not even get into the issue of undetectable perks because there's the even bigger issue of killers like ghoul, blight, and Jason who can go from one end of the map to another in a matter of seconds making any information the perk gave moot. Let's not forget it's minuscule reveal duration after all.
It's a perk that does nothing in let's be generous and say only 90% of games because the killer is straight up immune to it or can render it irrelevant due to high movement speed. It's value only comes from slow basic killers that have no undetectable, can't move fast, and can't teleport. In other words it's usable against like… Trapper, Bubba, and Plague.
Compare this to the previously mentioned bond. A perk that is always active. A perk that makes it so you won't lead the killer to generators being worked on or survivors on death hook, and gives you information that can be acted on in or out of chase. While Salvation's cry is unreliable as it requires a significant number of killers and perks to not be in play, it requires you to be the one in chase, it's information gets worse the longer chase goes on as you move through the maps leading to potential situations where because you gave people info earlier they may not realize where the chase has moved and erroneously think an area is safe, it turns off after only a few seconds so most people can't even get value out of it, and most of the time it will not give any value whatsoever to anyone as people should be focusing on getting gens done not worrying about what side of the map killer is on.
They don't need to see you coming since that gives no value. The only thing that matters is making sure you aren't leading the killer to gens simple as that.
I mean, I like to know which way NOT to go to run into the killer. I like knowing where you came from to know whats probably been used. There are defiantly more things that mater than that.
First off, bond lets you lead the killer away from someone who is on death hook
But it does not let the other guy run the sure fire direction away, you have to steer yourself and probably eat that hook quicker than if you could pass by. I have been on death hook before and tried to go away as someone leads them to me, whether intentional or not, only to pick the wrong direction to go. This helps others with the finer details. If you run shoulder you have to take that hook state instead of possibly preemptively preventing one. Im not going to know where everyones been if im solo just because someones on death hook, tunnel or no. I can roughly guess but unless i go through myself I only know where chases end, and not even what happened durring said chases. Some greed pallets, some drop at a hat.
Just for fun, what if the killer comes from the corner of the map with completed gens because the runner was making sure they're not leading them to finished gens? Will they go to mine dead strait? Will they go to another then mine from there? This is no bearing on the perk, but it does show that knowing where the killer comes from isn't cut and dry.
Next there's the issue of you saying it doesn't matter who the killer is
In the context for the perk it indeed doesn't really mater. The benefit is showing you and the killer's aura to others when a chase starts. If the killer is undetectable the others still see you. As the killer is now spoiled when met with a survivor (dont exactly know what triggers the info in the pause menu) the survivors can know who it is even if not seen. As it also procs each "chase" which can be broken up repeatedly against most it gives irregular, but not that hard to follow, pings. I will concede it IS practically useless on extreme mobility/lethality and snipers as your probably going down fast or theres no "chase" to proc.
Compare this to the previously mentioned bond.
I have. To put blunt and simple Bond is a perk specifically for you while salvation is for everyone else. Bond will tell you where you shouldn't go, but if you need to the others are practically forced in the corssfire. Salvation doesn't tell you where not to go but allows the others to potentially avoid said crossfire. Bond is a limited range (about average tr size if im right) but always on, salvation needs a proc but is relatively simple (not easy, but "chases" often break and go, break and go) to get a few procs and is unlimited. The chase may move but that initial ping still helps regardless of the previous sentence. And if people cant work on a gen and look around no wonder people think judgement is broken.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114539#Comment_4114539
Wow, stuff that's check notes better done by running quick gambit and just not leading the killer to the survivors. Or bond, a perk that's on a starting character. Survivors know who the killer is after first chase so you will have to explain to me how survivors who are not in chase get value from knowing where the killer is. Because they should be on generators not just messing around trying to go for sabo or flashlight saves, both of which got heavily crippled by the new killer totally negating them.
So quick gambit lets others see you coming? Cause that seems like a new one to me. Also sure bond doesn't tell the others where you and the killer are. Both those tell you and you alone no? And when sometimes you might need to go towards others, like say death hook, others can at least either get outta the way or try and help without requiring either or ducking at the first heartbeat. It doesn't mater who the killer is, what matters is the where. Is it a great perk? No, is there a point to run it? Occasionally. But keep thinking everythings "hot garbage", i can at least see usefulness.
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@esarraf said:
Honestly speaking Salvation's cry is hot garbage so I don't even think flipping it would change anything. There's no real point in running it currently.
Actually it gives solos periodic advanced warning about where the killer is and what's probably getting used. Tells me that atleast when ppl run it
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114381#Comment_4114381
I do not disagree that players encounter others well below their skill level quite frequently. It happened all the time with the previous MMR, it is happening now during reset, and it could still happen with relative frequency going forward under the new MMR.
That does not mean we can conveniently summon the skill level of a killer that most supports our own argument. …particularly in a thread that shouldn't be concerned with inexperienced killers.
My point is more people are making Judgement out to be all powerful because people really are just doing things like I mentioned. Like every killer will seem op if survivors keep being dumb. And after nearly a week you'd think that at least a majority would know to at least look around for the pillars of light once they see a judgment.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114225#Comment_4114225
Every killer is easy to play against when the version you compare them to is unskilled and/or inexperienced.
Following your same logic, I can say Judgement is very hard because most survivors don't know how to loop.
Literal strawman.I mean that's sorta what's going on in the opposite direction. I've had people as survivor and killer who were so sure that the giant beam of doom from the sky was harmless to them so they didn't bother trying to dodge. I've had some where they keep trying to dodge at the last second instead of smartly as they could have with sight or sound. I've had some people where they seem to think I can't course correct while aiming and run in straight lines…
Now admittedly some of that can be chalked to new killer and mmr resets and whatever, but I'm definitely sure that there's more of the plain dumb than any other factor.
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@SpyUA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114155#Comment_4114155
And survivors don't require anti-tunneling or exhaustion, or gen rushing perks, it just helps.
But I think some people are just too afraid to let go of their safety blanket when it comes to survivor.
Both sides mate, not just survivor, both sides.
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@Myrcus said:
- Ranged attack with no downside, almost guaranteed hit; SCRATCH THAT, in addition to having no downside, it hinders and brokens survivors, soooo yeah… RANGED ATK with HUGE UPSIDES
- TP around the map basically on demand → Jason basically plays 2 ways, in a chase, and in TP
- Blocking windows, pallets, survivor screams when he TPS, i mean… EVEN a mentally challenged individual would have an oppinion on this
- Have i forgotten anything?
Basically Jason has no identity, he just has bunch of OP perks all put into one. IT made for a great selling strat. What now though? I must say, i have been playing this game for over 500 hrs, have around 45% escape rate, and i have never played a game where we managed to complete more than 2 gens b4 getting ousted. But yeah, he cool though.
P.S. I have made 3 posts on the forum in my entire 500 hrs played. This about nerfing Jason is one of them. Draw a conclussion. BHVR.
- Range attack that potentially eats hooks to reload and is infact not a guaranteed hit with its long wind up and one shot per reload.
- Very very obvious when in OE and must get out via breakable or vault able. Also what's wrong with in chase or looking for one again?
- Bar a add on which requires set up he only blocks the one he teleports to…meaning do run to the guy trying to murder you. That seems like sound logic to most sain people. The screams also don't trigger if you simply crouch.
- You forgot that 500 hrs isn't all that long here in dbd
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I feel it really needs to be said that forcing people outside their comfort zones and having to always pay attention apparently kicks up such a fuss.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114054#Comment_4114054
I can make reasonable requests and you can choose to not like them. I don't care.
That is not reasonable. That's just straight ******* and completely unproductive.
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@Royval said:
judgement is an broken killer players are getting 4ks in 1 minute
if its a 4k in a minute im going to go ahead and say thats a survivor problem
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@pidgeon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113215#Comment_4113215
I'm pretty sure Tier Lists have criteria for this exact reason, most of the time its based around the average playerbase. Obviously every killer played at the top level WILL stomp survivors, I mean look at Quiet kills Epidemy ect. They play "bottom tiers" and still stomp every single lobby.
The reason why A tiers exist is because for the average player it COULD be S tier, the only thing holding Hillbilly back would be Indoor Maps or hard to maneuver areas.
The only thing that holds killers like Singularity & Twins from being S tier is the fact that communication & antislugging perks literally gut these killers.
I'm pretty sure Tier Lists have criteria for this exact reason, most of the time its based around the average playerbase.
This is a first I'm hearing about actual criteria on lists, could you please explain them for me? Usually it seems it ends up a mix of whatever the steamer of the week says and opinions. Highly curious.
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Personally no but heres apparently been an uptick in crashes overall if that helps.
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…Is this what constitutes broken now a days?…
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While its not a sat kill, im perfectly capable of getting much more creative shots with artist than judgement. And much stealthier too.
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The only negative I can see is someone trying to use the haste and elusive together to stalk the killer as they're chasing the rescuer to do a pallet/blind save if too long.
Overall I don't see much a problem with different timers, though specific order in shortest to longest would probably be endurance, elusive, and haste.
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@Bad_Medicine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110730#Comment_4110730
He Abandoned as someone was popping off the Hook with Deliverance (which, Survivors can see each other's perks if they bother to check the match details, now). So technically the match wasn't over, even though, he had been knocked down, but he Abandoned. The person with Deli was probably screaming at their monitor. If the Exit Gates are open and all the Survivors are just waiting around in them, the match is kind of over. Survivors can Abandon when there are second chance perks in play that could turn a game around, but a Killer can't Abandon when there's nothing left to do but wait out four sore winners standing in the Exit Gates to BM? Doesn't really seem like fair logic.
The downed survivor in the clip... could do what exactly under their own power? Wait and pray or abandon. In that specific scenario they should have waited a bit, if the hooked survivor didn't have Deliverance, then they'd be SoL. In no situation I can think of is the killer powerless to do nothing to keep the game moving.
Both sides are different, what seems "fair" (already subjective) for one is not for the other. Was it "fair" when killers forced survivors to bleed out for 4 minutes where they could do nothing but DC or pray someone had a one time use something? Tell me when the killer is put in a similar position, and no the exit gates being open and the survivors inside is not. The reason? Killers can still actually end the game, it's entirely in their power, no DC required. You say "logic" but often the "logic" when talking about this topic is more mired in emotions. Hell even I'm guilty of that as I hate the abandon mechanic, yet I'll admit it and still see why it was added as it is.
To hammer the point again, the killer is at no point held in a position where they can not do anything productive, yes even if it's just to swat out stupid survivors. If nothing else your more proving why abandon was horrible to begin with.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4106929#Comment_4106929
A strawman can also be making an illogtcal comparison to shift the goalposts. Robbing a bank is in no way a reasonable comparison to tunneling, and therefore THAT is why your argument is a strawman.
mate…
A straw man argument is a logical error where someone changes or exaggerates an opponent's point to make it easier to attack.
Croger271's example of a false equivalence:
This would be like saying 'if a person can take money out of a bank when they have an account, why is it wrong for a person to take money out of a bank when they rob it. Either taking money out of the bank is always okay, or never okay'
You:
Robbing a bank is in no way a reasonable comparison to tunneling, and therefore THAT is why your argument is a strawman.
…like i don't even know if i can point it out better…
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@Bad_Medicine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109660#Comment_4109660
"When Survivors get knocked down there's no way to advance the game."
The point of this is?
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It's the little things that I'm enjoying. Recently had a random javelin hit and net me a kill. Confused a huntress by running like a headless chicken with no plan. Me popping up next to a swf mate and spooking them.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109672#Comment_4109672
I get that, although if something like this were to be hypothetically added you'd probably have to add that this wouldn't take place while a survivor is hooked (and maybe downed) since sometimes survivors will reset for a save in or nearby the gates
shrug Better than abandon to me
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109660#Comment_4109660
I agree that there is a fundamental difference between these two scenarios because the killer will always have the agency, but I'm not 100% sure that the OP's suggestion shouldn't be a thing. Maybe it could be implemented the option to abandon if all survivor's are in the gates for more than 20 seconds? This could technically be circumvented by sitting right outside, but at least it would be a little less safe to do so and maybe punishable, so maybe it would discourage waiting to bm. Personally I don't mind it as the way it is, I'm able to force survivors out if they're taking to long and I don't want to wait, otherwise I can just use the last minute or two on the endgame timer to break some pallets for extra points.
Im more a personal proponent of punishing dumb behaviors ex: the end timer speeds up per survivor hanging around a certain radius of a open gate. Im NOT a fan of adding more abandons unless its specifically because something is causing loss of agency. Get as creative as you want with punishing behaviors but don't be lazy and add a "fix" resulting in dull endings.
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When survivors get knocked down theres no way to advance the game.
When the gates are open the killer can advance the game even if they don't like it.
When survivors get knocked down and cant leave they're at the killers mercy to end the game without eating a dc penalty. As we saw people would simply let survivors bleed for most if not all the timer.
When the gates are open…the killer is still able to force the end of the game still because they still always have agency. At no point is the killer at the mercy of survivors.
If we keep adding ways to quit then eventually the goal posts get moved enough that theres no real game period.
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@Lavoonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109550#Comment_4109550
I mean yes in normal circumstances one survivor is focused down until death, but when it's for the purposes of guaranteeing a win as easily as possible a tunneling killer is given the benefit of swapping targets if they think the Shoulder user is an easier target. And yes tunneling is incredibly unfun for a lot of players to experience, that's why I'm fine with Shoulder as an anti tunnel perk. My problem is that in its current state it affects non tunneling killers too, and since they're more likely to look for a new target after hooking the exposed doesn't benefit them like it can tunneling killers. If it only worked when a survivor was hooked back to back, the exposed effect could be removed and both problems could be addressed.
Playing safe would mean working on safer gens instead of less protected ones (even if doing so would create a less defendable 3 gen), having someone else go for an unhook even if it takes them longer to rotate over, and pre running earlier than they would otherwise. It's sacrificing efficiency for safety because getting found puts a lot of pressure on the whole team.
Rotating gens is more like survivors swapping the gens they're doing. If survivor A gets found by the killer and gets in chase, they may tell survivor B to come over to finish it while the killer is occupied. It's the same with an unhook as well, if survivor A is death hook they may tell survivor C to rotate over to unhook while they go to work on survivor C's gen. If the killer is spending time protecting the gen that still means at least 3 other survivors are free to work on theirs, so this does not necessarily mean gens will go significantly slower.
And yes of course the killer cannot know what perks survivors will bring, yet their existence is still something they need to worry about. The existence of DS may persuade a killer from tunneling even if no survivor in the match actually has it, which is a healthy effect on the game. Conversely the existence of Shoulder can create instances where they feel encouraged to tunnel since they'll be punished worse by it otherwise, which I feel is very unhealthy. It's like Fast Track in its heyday, perks that incentivize tunneling over spreading hooks are terrible for game.
It's the point when they switch that it doesn't really become tunneling to most, hence repeatedly stating that a tunneler doesn't switch.
I see shoulder as a autistic team perk. If you really want to help your teammate you take their burden and sometimes it's enough, sometimes not. It's not pure anti tunnel, it's just that it's current best benefit is anti tunnel. Regardless making it work on back to back hooks would make it a lot worse. Think if the killer went back and forth from survivors A and B. Survivor C has shoulder and can't use it to help either as the killer bounces between those two because it's not back to back and your left with something you can't even use for yourself. DS also runs into this but DS is also a pure self defense perk, can't use it on another.
Yet smart survivors would be taking risks regardless of hookstate. That guy on death hook finishing the gen in the middle of nowhere is a lot less valuable than the guy on death hook trying to finish a gen in the middle of a 3 gen. If the killer is in chase and they're closer to the hook than the other guys they take it. As for pre running... survivors already do that at literally the first sign of trouble unless that gen is finish able so I really don't see a difference. The sacrifice of efficiency for safety doesn't usually end well, atleast for the team.
Love how definitions change overtime. Why can't it just be called swapping? Personal ranting aside, both killers are protecting gens. It's just when a non tunneling killer is doing so they will usually chase around one of those gens keeping it relatively unworked on, especially if the survivors in question are injured, while the tunneler goes back to wherever they hooked the survivor, which could be nearby, could not. With the tunneler survivors wouldn't even need to rotate (I'm damn tempted to call it swapping) as again focused on that single survivor. Against the non tunneling killer the survivors would need to waste time doing this. The non tunneling killer would somewhat typically have 1 on hook and then be chasing another soon after, leaving a third survivor going to the save meaning there's temporarily only 1 survivor working. Once the unhook happens the killer is likely to get a new hook soon or already has and thus repeating the cycle. The tunneler works similar till the unhook where they drop everything and run back. This lets survivors (bar the tunneled SLB) get back to working quicker. It's not a huge amount no, but it's about not letting important gens pop. Like above, as killer I'm not gonna care if the corner gen pops first or 3rd because the others are easier to watch.
Conversely shoulder dissways tunneling because you might have to hook that survivor multiple times while everyone else has Deliverance. Maybe all the survivors have Shoulder DS DH and Deliverance. What then? Well personally I'd keep playing as normal because trying to worry about what ifs seems like an effort for insanity but it seems I'm apparently the odd one not worrying about what I don't know and making due with the situation at hand. It's funny how there's was a darkest dungeon colab and people can't use that mentality here despite the cosmetics I see. I know I'm asking for a lot but trust me, it's NOTHING like the Fast Track dilemma.
...on the note of darkest dungeon, do you happen to know where I go now to ask about missing cosmetics?
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@Lavoonus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109466#Comment_4109466
I mean they're not tunneling because they made a vow to only hook one of the survivors, they're trying to get someone out of the game as fast as possible. Unless the killer is a 4.4, both the survivors have equal hook states and will go down in one basic attack, so there's not much of a difference even for a tunneling killer.
I mean sure, nothing's forcing you to play safe on death hook, but I think its pretty self evident that the killer is gonna find it beneficial if they find a death hook survivor doing an unsafe gen. And to be clear, playing safe doesn't mean going afk on the outskirts of the map, but it does mean doing less protected gens or going for an unhook is much more risky. If you've seen any comp dbd, this is definitely something even the best survivor teams play around.
I mean yes the tunneling killer is likely pressuring gens less, but if we are indeed talking about a coordinated SWF shouldn't they still be rotating gens efficiently against the non-tunneling killer? I don't really see how they would be forced to spend more time healing against them either, without a particularly vulnerable survivor or a need to take hits there's no reason some of the team can't stay injured. I don't think the difference would be as great as you think, and at the end of the day 4 survivors alive at 3 gens is still a better position than only 3 with 1 gen left.
This scenario is actually a game I had a few weeks ago, someone getting Shoulder'd on first hook is a pretty big tell that they have Deli and want to get use out of it. I had the choice to break chase and try to hook them again, or ignore it and keep chasing. I don't like to tunnel personally so I chose the second option, and like I assumed once I later found her on a gen and hooked her again she used Deli to remove my hook pressure. The better play in that instance would have been to slug her out of course, but its something I wouldn't have even needed to consider if I just ran back to hook to tunnel her.Yet when people complain about tunneling the more reasonable ones complain about literally being focused down and killed with no respite. Theres no switching, theres no breathing room, its chase hooked unhooked chased repeat till dead. The tunneler in these scenarios does not give a damn. Hell a possibility is once they use shoulder the killer manages to quickly hit them and then go for the injured unhooked leaving unhooker slugged. Thats also disregarding the amount of times i've seen killers chase a recently shouldered survivor. You'd think they'd be smart about it right? Its sadly often times no they are not.
It was a point of your scenario. You made it sound like they would skit around being less useful. "Playing it safe" makes it sound really not good as you need to take risks or everyone is likely to fall. And no i do not watch comp dbd as its a joke to me. For my curiosity what would be "playing it safe"?
Now correct me if im wrong but "gen rotation" means they finish a gen then move to the next important gen right? Said tunneler will protect those gens but stop once the unhook happens, hyper focused on the target, and likely be chasing around the hook area. Meaning that its much easier for survivors to rotate. Said non-tunneler wouldn't be running back to the hook (depending on players, often enough some will go back for the unhooker) and likely chase them off and around the area of importance and possibly break chases when smart to. Meaning its harder to rotate between gens uninterrupted and safer as various resources get used in that area. This also is why the occasional healing would be good here as a single misstep while injured leads to easy pressure for the killer.
Yet its a scenario no killer will know going into the match. They can worry about that scenario, they can worry about 4 anti-tunnel perks, the killer goes in blind as to what perks survivors have which means it does not give an incentive to tunnel. Ironically i've used shoulder on someones first hook for a variety of reasons ranging from they were an amazing looper to spite the quitters to simply help a friend in a swf.