Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
About
- Username
- Rulebreaker
- Joined
- Visits
- 7,579
- Last Active
Comments
-
@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099455#Comment_4099455
by the time you realize whats happening, realize you cannot get around said survivor, etc 5ish seconds has likely passed - thats a 5 second head start. If you smack the body blocker, that gives an additional 2 ish seconds for the animation to go away - so you would be starting a chase around 7-10 seconds delayed if you play that optimally - which a survivor can just hold W and make hella distance- making a chase often non practical or a waste of time.
....if it takes 5 whole seconds to figure out your body blocked I would question the competency of the killer.…
Regardless of that, if you smack the body block immediately then it's 2 seconds instead of your supposed 5+2 and there's a guy gotta mend for bonus.
-
@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
Think about how often this situation happens as Killer:
A survivor gets unhooked. Rather than chasing the freshly unhooked survivor, you immediately switch targets and go after the rescuer—as the game generally encourages you to do.
Instead of running away, however, the recently unhooked survivor deliberately steps in front of you and bodyblocks, using their Endurance to physically prevent you from reaching the rescuer. At that point, you have three realistic choices:
- Ignore the bodyblock and let the rescuer escape.
- Hit or chase the bodyblocking survivor instead.
- Wait for the survivor's endurance to run out and then smack em
In my experience, this scenario happens frequently. More importantly, the survivors willing to make these aggressive bodyblocks are also often the ones running Decisive Strike. As a result, the Killer can be punished for responding to a survivor who intentionally inserted themselves back into the chase.
That creates an awkward gameplay loop. A perk designed to discourage tunneling can end up rewarding survivors for making high-risk, aggressive plays that they otherwise wouldn't be able to make safely.
I don't think the solution is to fundamentally change or heavily nerf Decisive Strike. Its purpose as an anti-tunneling perk is important.
A much simpler adjustment would be to delay the perk's activation. Instead of becoming active immediately after being unhooked, Decisive Strike could activate 20 seconds after the unhook, with its 60-second duration beginning at that point.
This preserves the perk's intended role of protecting survivors from being tunneled shortly after an unhook, while reducing situations where a survivor can immediately bodyblock, force the Killer into hitting them, and still retain full access to Decisive Strike. Choosing to aggressively re-enter the chase would carry meaningful risk, while survivors who simply leave the hook area would receive the same protection the perk was designed to provide.
Ignore the bodyblock and let the rescuer escape.
Hit or chase the bodyblocking survivor instead.
Wait for the survivor's endurance to run out and then smack em
You missed the 4th of smack the body block the second they try and continue to chase the unhooker. It works super well 90%ish of the time.
Also how is ignoring the body block letting the rescuer escape?
Regardless of that, a 20 second delay will make it so its practically useless to the average survivor (and many above average at that).
-
Your supposed reason for the nerf is "its hard to tell when the bar goes faster"…got a better one than that? Cause if so then maybe you'd have an argument to nerfing a perk thats meh at best instead of yawning
-
@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098272#Comment_4098272
The problem is, when proxy camping they go in and out of the range and it's hard to perceive. Not hand holdy, just necessary. If you don't care then they can add it.
If they go in and out the camping meter should be increasing which is the tell for that as unless theres a good view, in which the killer wouldn't be going in and out (usually) without reasons anyway cause they can see everything, killers need to get close enough to view around the hook. Regardless of that we'd see spikes of quick and slow if paying attention.
They could add it sure, but its defiantly hand holdy and defiantly NOT necessary.
-
Just cause you have to work harder than normal doesn't mean survivors are immediately handed instant wins.
-
@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098122#Comment_4098122
Nothing, they'll just see a debuff icon too. Perceiving the speed change is not realistic on such a small HUD element.
Actually it kinda is realistic as it's a noticable difference as soon as the killer leaves. And if I see the timer going faster as a solo survivor, I'll know that I have less time to sit for whatever reason, even if I wouldn't know why. While I admit I don't personally care all that much, it's not a needed thing and seems a little hand holdy.
-
@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098032#Comment_4098032
well i pay attention to the hud. I know i’m one of the few that do apparently based on the teammates i get.
…So whats stopping teaching others to do the same?
-
Not that it excuses any rudeness from them, if it was only plaything then it's better to leave it in case of penti. A full hex build it's generally best to break what you don't know.
-
We're simple, we say a perk designed to save you, specifically you, from a bad situation and effectively giving you a second chance at the objective aka not being hooked for survivors.
Following: Decisive Strike, Dead hard, Unbreakable, No Mither (yes really), Adrenaline, Mettle of Man, Moment of Glory, power struggle, arguably Deliverance.Killers have something similar in the form of Endgame perks: Noed, Blood warden, Etc.
-
@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097781#Comment_4097781
If i knew monstrous shrine was in play i was definitely adjust the gameplan. Time management is a big factor in this game. If i think i can stick a gen for 10 seconds and make it too you with time to spare i will do it. That plan no longer works when monstrous is in play.
one of the biggest factors i’m only going to agree that it should be changed is because swfs exist and will communicate the perk is in play. Soloq players should also have that information.
...so what do you do when you watch the hook timer ticking down quickly? Cause that sorta gives the game away that monstrous shrine is in play.
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097780#Comment_4097780
I'm presenting a hypothetical. Imagine BHVR organized these matches, got the LITERAL best killer player in the world, and assuming ALL OPTIMAL CONDITONS. Remember, i'm thinking fighting game world. Where you take a matchup of 2 characters, assume both players are the best in the world, and generate a matchup chart. They look something like this for fighting games:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GST948UOFW4Z/image.png
These are scored on "out of 10 matches". This is for SSF2T which is very old and poorly balanced but doesn't really matter too much for the discussion.So for example, if you look at the chart and grab say, sagat vs guile. You'll see sagat has a 6 and guile has a 4. This means that out of 10 matches, sagat would win 6 and guile would win 4.
Then, you take those scores, and you stack rank the characters, and now you can determine the general stack ranking of the characters. These are usually started off based on opinions early on in a games life, but as time goes on, tournament results are used to determine and tweak these. Obviously for modern games patches and such happen.
Now, for DBD, perhaps the better matchup chart might be, killer to map. lets say. So if we took every killer on every map, and played 10 matches, assuming that the map RNG is static (so it is the same map every time) and it is a relatively balanced layout (it doesn't have 30+ pallets, but also doesn't have like 5 pallets).
Now have those killers play those matches out 10 times against the best team in the world. And what would happen Only 5 or so killers would actually be around the 50-60% win rate mark and maybe another 3-4 might be in the 40-50% win rate mark. But t he entire rest of the killer cast would be around T.Hawk and Zangief level
Now in the case of this game example here of SSF2T, if this were say, a live service game and we were the developers still balancing it, it would be clear that akuma is way too strong, and zangief is way too weak. matchupes that are 4-6, 5-5, 6-4 are fine in this world. Where you might need some tuning is any of the matches that are worse than that, the 3-7, 2-8, and even dear god the 1-9s. My point is, maybe nurse gets 7-3, maybe ghoul and dracula get 6-4, maybe spirit and blight get 5-5, but almost every other killers is down in the 3-7 and 2-8 range or worse.
THAT is my point.
So your point is basically "you dont think most killers can compete well enough" which you could have kindly summed up like you did with Cornil above. That's your thoughts and mine are "most killers can" as I said previously with that list. Cool we disagree, it's whatever.
How does that answer either question? Or at least the second one (iffy if all that text actually answers the first).
-
@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097810#Comment_4097810
"most the BS survivors could use are gone"- I'd argue a lot of the complaints about certain killer perks arent BS killer perks, theyre just strong. For example:
The dark arrogance nerf in patch 9.2.0.
Batteries included and machine learning nerfs in 9.0.0
weave attunement nerf 8.4.0.
But these are strong, not insane/BS . The new evasion perk on survivors came out and I doubt it'll be touched at all for months, but because totems are strong rn not only will thrill get hit but ruin probably will too. DS and dead hard took years to nerf, killers often get fixed within months, as will be proven when we see a nerf to thrill before next patch (it needs it because hex build, but id argue a lot of the survivors perks needed it and took too long). I'm more than happy to balance both casually, but often people ask for this when asking for nerfs targetting killer, and that kinda rubs me the wrong way.
Also not answering for reinami, just putting in my 2 cents on a convo on a public forum. They could go in an entirely seperate direction.
I'd argue a lot of the complaints about certain killer perks arent BS killer perks, theyre just strong.
Which doesn't change the fact they're gone now. There's nothing really extreme or even big to complain about without sounding silly. And again most the killer nerfs aren't even all that much. Batteries got less speed for more range and machine learning went a similar route with more time less speed for 9.0. They got a little tap.
I'm more than happy to balance both casually, but often people ask for this when asking for nerfs targetting killer, and that kinda rubs me the wrong way.
I agree when people ask nerfs just to nerf that's stupid, but that's why we'd ought to keep an ear on why they want something nerfed and if it's reasonable.
To be fair you sounded a lot like how I expected them to answer (and I got a decent track record with that) so apologies if I indirectly offended.
-
@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097780#Comment_4097780
Not going to go through the last few comments you've had with the guy, they seem pretty hectic, just gonna comment on this bit I just saw.
"Whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?"- the issue is this isn't what happens with killers. Huntress movement speed nerf is something that was neccessary for the better huntresses but your average huntress doesn't need this nerf. Same with the blight Hug tech, the good/top tier blights were horrendous to go against, sure, but the average blight was a goofy little goober dashing around the place trying trickshots or just gobbling up pallets whilst being unable to chain stuff. There is a bunch of killers that are made fundamentally weaker/clunkier to stop the best of those killers being oppressive. Old hillbilly is another example. I'd be fine with balancing for both ends, if it happened on both sides. The oppressive stuff is all thats really nerfed on survivor side (olds ds, old dh, old COH) whilst these nerfs that make some of even the weaker killers (huntress) feel clunkier/weaker.
I've played since 2018, old school killer was lethal (old ruin/pgtw) and needed these nerfs. However, more recently I've been leaning towards killers being targeted with their nerfs. Things that have been meta and strong for a long time on survivor haven't been touched (Lithe/adrenaline for example) whilst a lot of killer-wide "meta" builds get targetted pretty quickly.
"If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?"- of course not, people make mistakes ect or are just chilling after a long day at work.
to be fair, only had the one here with em
the issue is this isn't what happens with killers.
The thing is this IS a possibility that can happen no? Could they do this instead of ONLY the highest or average? Thats my point of contention.
That said i think they kinda do, they're just bad at it. The huntress movement (im assuming your talking about the movement speed when holding a hatchet yes?) allowed her to simply zone survivors instead of actually try to make a shot without any major drawback.
I've been here since Doc came out, i've personally seen and experienced the BS of both sides. Killers are generally the target of nerfs because most the BS survivors could use are gone (Working on a gen with DS and Unbreakable, infinites, instant heal medkits, etc) or are minor/have a decent cost (having 5 second heals after an unhook [and before you whine about this: It costs at minimum 1 perk slot between 2 different survivors and a hookstate with a relatively safe unhook), and many killer nerfs aren't even that bad.
"If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?"- of course not, people make mistakes ect or are just chilling after a long day at work.
Here is what Reinami said which prompted the question:
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players.
Since not everyone can be coordinated nor perfect, but they arent lower skilled players, are we actually balancing around the lower skilled by reducing the level of coordination needed against Jason? Or is it something else?
Personally, idc as i think jason is almost perfectly fine, but its something nagging at me. Also why are you answering for Reinami?
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097568#Comment_4097568
Take the literal best player for each killer in the world, and pit them against the best survivor team in the world and play 10 matches in lets say a perfect world where they can play a balanced map that has no map RNG and all 10 matches have the exact same spawns and layout.
Now think about that, and tell me how many of those killers do you think would win even half of their matches in that scenario?
So ignoring the facts of the uncertainty of anyone having any of those titles, the sheer unrealism of having a subjectively "balanced" map (each killer would have something different for "balanced") with no RNG, which is an inherent part of the game, and all those matches have the exact same spawns and either not including thinks like add ons and perks or free for all for them, id say: Wraith, Billy, Nurse, Myers, possibly hag (subjective "balanced" map remember), Huntress, Freddy, Clown, Spirit, Plague, Demo, Oni,Pyramid, Bleet, Twins, Trickster, Neme, Pinface, Artist, Dredge, Wesker, Xeno, Unknown, Vecna, Drac, Houndmaster, the Ghouls, Springtrap, Krasue, Henry, Jason. All them have a good chance to win about half their matches.
Now that I answered you, care to answer me?
Whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?
If the survivors don't do the play you think is best atm, does that mean they're less skilled?
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097324#Comment_4097324
You obviously didn't read my comment. There is 2 choices:
- You balance around the highest level players
- You balance around the average player
If you balance around the highest level players, then by definition you need to contend with the fact that the vast majority of the killer cast is massively underpowered, and you have maybe 5 killers that can compete at that level and survivors as a whole need a massive nerf, or killers as a whole need a massive buff.
If you balance around the average level players, then by definition, you must look at the AVERAGE level players, and what do you see in the statistics around killers like nurse and blight? They are often in the lower half of the killer cast, in fact nurse is often the LOWEST kill rate killer in the game when you look at average kill rates. Thus by definition, she would need some buffs.
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players. If so, then are you willing to live out the truth of your statement and claim that nurse and blight need buffs and that sadako and pig need nerfs? I don't think you are. I think that you would say that nurse needs nerfs.
you need to contend with the fact that the vast majority of the killer cast is massively underpowered
Im curious, wheres it fact that the majority are underpowered? You can name a few easily enough but wheres the majority of 40 killers?
Beyond that, whats stopping the devs from looking at both the highest and lowest and making tweeks using that data?
My point is, you are saying that Jason shouldn't require people to be coordinated (in a team game btw) because most people aren't. Thus you are advocating for balancing around lower skill and average level players.
The reason most people arent coordinated is because in solo Q you really can't be to any large degree. Sure you can figure out what the best play you think should happen atm is but would the other 3 random survivors know what you want? That doesnt mean they are lower skilled does it?
-
Sadly each person is different. Would say try to find another goal when playing making actually killing survivors secondary. Look at any and all positives. Like for an admittedly, poor example, in a kyf my goal was to just chuck spears at my friends as Jason. I get practice chucking spears (I'm on controller so necessary), they get some practice against Jason, and I impale friends on sharp sticks every now and then.
For what it's worth, for me and my siblings we generally are just apathetic and looking for a fun time. We don't care about the outcome as much as the journey. There's no real stakes, we know the limits on what we can do with most killers and the builds they run, and we don't really care what a random dip head that we'll end up forgetting the name of has to say in the end. It's just pure "I don't give a ****" energy.
-
@MarbleThrone said:
You can make up funny theories all you want, but the harsh reality is that we don't know, can't possibly know, and might not see him again for years. If at all.
It is a licensing thing that is not in BHVR"s control.No need to be a spoil sport about it, think this is supose to be for fun here.
-
Once people complete the Lament Configuration 66# times in the upcoming Hellraiser game it will unlock rights for BHVR to use Pinhead again and that specific person gets a custom skin after they've been transported to leviathan and learned the pleasures of pain and have someone else solve the box.
-
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095934#Comment_4095934
I don't know why you linked the Leatherface thing since I already knew it. I got really frustrated because it made me feel like you didn't understand what I meant and I don't know how to explain it any better to you, but you do understand so why did you link it then?
I'm not responding anymore after this because you understand my point and you're just trying to get me to say that it's possible to do things in the game to be toxic. Like it is in every game. The problem is that all of your examples have nothing to do with winning the game.
4-man bleedouts could only occur after the killer had won, it had nothing to do with winning the game. The Leatherface example you gave involves the Leatherface player deliberately throwing the match, it would have nothing to do with winning the game.
That would be like in a hero shooter if the entire team ignored the point to spawn camp one person. Killing enemy players is not seen as toxic, even spawn camping is not seen as toxic when it's done strategically, but throwing the match to keep one person in spawn is no longer about trying to win the match.
The problem is that in DBD, people don't make this distinction. The context for why you tunneled doesn't matter, a lot of players just view the act of tunneling at all to be toxic.
Because it still seemed to me like you still don't think these tactics could be toxic depending on how it's used. You seem to think that everyone thinks they're toxic because that's what everyone has been told to think while not thinking about the person themselves. It's like reverse order to me. Now, I could be wrong, but nothing you've said proves to me otherwise. Look:
Yeah. He camped and tunneled. Because the community treats camping and tunneling as a personal attack/form of BM, people were able to use those as tools to harass others and the message was clear.
The community treats camping and tunneling as personal attacks because of things like that. You make it seem like the community treats is as toxic therefore people do things like this.
you're just trying to get me to say that it's possible to do things in the game to be toxic. Like it is in every game. The problem is that all of your examples have nothing to do with winning the game.
And yet...
4-man bleedouts could only occur after the killer had won, it had nothing to do with winning the game. The Leatherface example you gave involves the Leatherface player deliberately throwing the match, it would have nothing to do with winning the game.
This is why they can be toxic. These things still happened. Would it have killed the killer to hook them after Slugging them all? Would it have killed the leather faces to play normal? Yet they didn't. They used the tactics in the game to be toxic. The context infact does matter.
-
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095625#Comment_4095625
So you realize I can make that sound really horrible correct? Idk if you know this but Bubba used to have special face cosmetics for each of the 4 original survivors. They don't exist anymore, care to guess why?
Yeah. He camped and tunneled. Because the community treats camping and tunneling as a personal attack/form of BM, people were able to use those as tools to harass others and the message was clear.
This is why I keep bringing up hooking. Nobody regards hooking as a personal attack. If the Leatherface just hooked people, nobody would notice anything amiss at all, because hooking is not seen as a personal attack.
Moving on from that sentence. What I see is that you think that the whole mass of players is conditioned like a dog to see these as toxic which is false.
Yes they are.
Because maybe they wanna know if they made a mistake somewhere?
No. They want to know why the killer targeted them. Nobody asks this question in endgame chat thinking they're going to receive constructive criticism of their gameplay. If they did do something to invite it, and you answer them, they're not going to listen.
Ya know, funny enough I did do this long ago. They didn't tunnel on first instinct, they infact left the hook to look for others.
You misunderstood what I meant. I meant if given two targets to pick from, the killer will naturally pick one that is closer to death. If the survivor gets unhooked in front of them, the killer will naturally choose the more vulnerable target, which is the unhooked person. I didn't mean people will just camp the hook and tunnel immediately, I meant they would have no reservations against it.
…Certainly not the whole death threats, bming, and other things, nooooo…
Why do you think this happens so often? THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO CONVEY.
Sabotaged the hook? Personal attack.
Flashlight blinded? Personal attack.
Tunneled? Personal attack.
Camped? Personal attack.
Slugged? Personal attack.
If someone is frustrated and feels attacked, they're going to lash out. It's not a defense of elevating it but it would happen less if people didn't treat regular game actions so personally.
Yeah. He camped and tunneled. Because the community treats camping and tunneling as a personal attack/form of BM, people were able to use those as tools to harass others and the message was clear.
This is why I keep bringing up hooking.
Nobodyregards hooking as a personal attack. If the Leatherface just hooked people, nobody would notice anything amiss at all, because hooking is not seen as a personal attack.Here you go, happy reading
So if said leatherface ONLY hooked a specific survivor and let everyone else go…that survivor wouldnt see it as a personal attack because of?……..
Yes they are.
Your entitled to your beliefs…but i feel the obligation to point out its wrong. I mean, I only see specific forms of tunneling, slugging and camping toxic, not the whole thing, i can probably list atleast 5 others who are similar, and id bet that theres a good number here on the forum who don't see all tunneling and slugging toxic. Juuuuuuuuust throwing that out there.
You misunderstood what I meant.
But thats not what you said.
If you took someone who never played DBD before, explained the basic rules, and sat them in the killer role, their first instinct is going to be to tunnel.
People have reservations about that more than conditioning. Those who play both sides know what it feels like when they were tunneled and in turn dont want to inflict that unto random undeserving strangers. That would be called empathy. Besides that, reasonable people (emphasis on reasonable) aren't going to be spewing toxicity for something like being unhooked in front of the killers face (towards the killer anyway). People WILL do so when said killer does something like dropping a chase across the map just to go get them.
Why do you think this happens so often?THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO CONVEY.Not really. What you are conveying is "These tactics are in the game and therefore can never be toxic" and "Its only toxic because we keep calling it that", the first is false while the second ends in the previous "words wont have meaning" thing. I keep pointing out how these things could be used as personal attacks. It isnt always a attack, but it can and has been used as such.
-
@Lethal_premium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095736#Comment_4095736
Okay the first point you are right, but I have not had one match in the past month were someone didn't bring a gen rush build, exhaustion perks like sprint burst or Lithe counters all m1 killers, and some high mobility killers like ghoul pre drop pallet and you run away they have to wait on cd then pre drop again, you see where this is going. Hyperfocus stake out gets value 99% and in what world is getting generators done in twenty five seconds fair.
Killers and powers also don't counter both pre running and dropping, ghoul gets a token removed, huntress gets pre ran into mars and so does pyramid head. Blight and Nurse are excluded from this argument since they are a completely other ball game.
I wish I recorded the match but I had a match with Wraith where I was doing hit and run with sloppy and GOF, and they still healed in two seconds wjth resurgence and lend a hand.
Tunneling in this meta is required as gen speeds are beyond ludicrous speeds, and STB,DS, OTR, and BT have throughout the games lifespan been used aggressively, even without tunneling.
Slugging I have had killers use slug builds and I use WGLF and I have not lost to a single slug build with it. No mither is not that bad in this meta because of how broken survivor is, UB is a perk I have lost entire games to because I slug for pressure when everyone flocking the slug get three man down and poof UB across the map and my pressure is gone, and EXPO is meh I will give you that.
Camping in solo que honestly I can usually get my teammates to work even if they made a bad play by pin ponging the killer, and reassurance is good even when your not camping. 100 second hook timers should never be a thing.
STB I have games where I have had two people first hook, and one second hook at one Gen, I need the second hook dead but they get STB, and since I'm not camping they got away safely with zero counters. Also bad survivors are not important when discussing balance thank you.
And then they burn through all their resources and then the next one gets dropped in a fraction of the time it normally would have had they not pre-dropped everything. Also thos perks dont "counter" m1 killers, they just annoy them. Im perfectly capable of running up with a ghostface against a SB, its just annoying and i know they wont have it again for about 20ish seconds at the least. Also your counting downwards in time it takes to finish a gen with things that have no consistancy getting max value. Sure in going to get skill checks eventually, but is it one at the tail end of a generator or at the begining? No way to know.
I've hit people with hatchets who tried sb away but had no cover. If I can do it, people can learn to do it too, and people who are better than me can do it with more consistency. Ghouls literally counter pre-running because they can literally catch up to you in seconds. And i said pyramidhead can counter pre-drops, thats not pre-running thank you. How exactly is Blight excluded here? You can maybe make an argument for nurse (though i personally disagree), but why single out blight? Regardless of that thought wanna know how Trapper, yes you hear that right Trapper, counters and pre-run pre-drop? He traps a area right and then when survivors run that way they either A go in the trap or B got nothin to use and need to take damage. TADA. Its like killer powers do things.
I wish I recorded the match but I had a match with Wraith where I was doing hit and run with sloppy and GOF, and they still healed in two seconds wjth resurgence and lend a hand.
Now please analyze what you typed. To get to that point they required 2 perks with 2 survivors and cost 1 hookstate. That isn't hit and run. Hit and run being ping ponging around 2+ survivors doing damage to get downs. What you typed is healing off the hook and it costs those survivors to do that.
Tunneling in this meta is required as gen speeds are beyond ludicrous speeds, and STB,DS, OTR, and BT have throughout the games lifespan been used aggressively, even without tunneling.
Tunneling is not required. Will it help? Sure. Is it easy? Sure. Is it required? Nope because gens only go ludicris speeds if A: the killer does poorly, B: Its a set up killer making a big set up, C: its 4 survivors with full gen loadouts and if THAT ones the case then they dont have anything else like anti-tunnel, anti-slug, exhaustion, etc. Also 90% of the time you as the killer have to ACTIVELY walk into the DS. Also also, how the ever loving hell do you use STB offensively?… Like every scenario i can think of i just see free hooks.
No mither is not that bad in this meta because of how broken survivor is
I know you probably are super serious and didnt mean to make a joke but this made me giggle. No mither, broken survivors, hehe.
Regardless of that funny, read that whole slugging paragraph again, or at least the UB part.
UB is a perk I have lost entire games to because I slug for pressure when everyone flocking the slug get three man down and poof UB across the map and my pressure is gone
If everyone's flocking to the slug how is the UB happening across the map? If your purposefully leaving the slug to go chase the other 3 instead of just smacking them away to be clear for blinds or something then UB is literally doing what its designed to do and your feeding into it. Thats not a problem with the perk or survivors.
Continuing on heres something to think on. As a survivor you bringing WGLF is you bringing something to counter that specific strategy. Of course slugging wont be as effective if you do so, but then you realize you spent a perk slot. So what if the killer doesnt slug but tunnels instead? Oh you'll just bring DS (one of the few that helps you specificly) and no problemo. What if the killer is a hit and run type? Ohh you love the resurgance and lend a hand combo so thats fixed. What if the killer camps? Well you'll…be outta perks so pray that your team does well with it? What if the killer is straight up good with regression and you need to rush them gens?…you ran outta perks awhile ago so tough luck. Survivors can't cover everything.
As for reassurance tell me what would be better (assume no perks aside from reassurance and your 4th teammate is on a gen busy):
- You take 15 seconds (made up on the fly numbers dont get to attached) to run and unhook, heal under the hook because the killer found and is chasing someone else somewhat nearby, then both you run about 5 seconds to the important gen you both see and begin cranking as the killer gets their down.
- You take 15 seconds to run to the hook, reassure the survivor, take those 5 seconds to run to the important gen you see, begin cranking. During this cranking the killer got the down and now have to choose whether to go get the unhook or keep cranking. Lets assume you go get the unhook. 5 seconds back there and while healing the killer has hooked their prize not so far and is very likely on their way back.
Now, the way i see it, scenario 2 is worse because you now have 1 on hook again, your recently unhooked still injured, the killer quickly closing in, and not even for that important gen to have any meaningful progress. That 100 second hook timer? Only matters if the killer is hanging around near it doing bumkiss.
STB I have games where I have had two people first hook, and one second hook at one Gen, I need the second hook dead but they get STB, and since I'm not camping they got away safely with zero counters. Also bad survivors are not important when discussing balance thank you.
Congrats you now either have one of the other 2 first hook on deathhook instead or now everyone has a hook and you can throw another survivor on the hook for them to worry about.
What makes a bad survivor cause really if your going to go that route im not going to let you be vauge about it. I've had people who are good make mistakes. I've had bad people make randomly good plays. Players are human after all.
-
@Lethal_premium said:
Unlike yesterday, when I was beyond frustrated and tired, I'm calmer today and actually ready to formulate my opinions.
First off I want to say I don't care about low-level players, when discussing balancing we should focus on high-level (not comp) players.
Now into my argument.
Chasing the first survivor, even if they're bad, with exhaustion takes thirty seconds enough for the first Gen to pop if all three people work on it.
This thirty seconds can easily be extended by shift W, and pre dropping. Then you got people who play immersed which are time consuming to find.
"So drop chase" you can't keep dropping chase repeatedly, and if everyone pre drops and pre runs then it takes forever, keep in mind this takes no skill.
Generators also go by to fast, with hyper focus stake out, a gen can be done easily in under 40 seconds solo, and stealth killers are usually weaker and easier to loop so the extra Gen speed is not needed.
Hit and run is also useless because botany, God medkits, lend a hand, Boon circle of healing, and the millions of other healing perks.
Now "toxic" strategies
Tunneling is easily countered by STB, DS, OTR, BT, Baby sitter, and DH is a powerful perk that you only get by hooking.
Slugging is also countered by UB, EXPO, No Mither, FTP, Soul guard, WGLF, MFT, Conviction.
Camping: Reassurance, and basic teamwork.
Also Shoulder is easily the best perk in the game, even without vigil exposed is only good on M1 killers which their are only four good ones, Singularity, Houndmaster, Spirit, and Ghoul. And fourty seconds is 28 with vigil, which means it's counters the one downside for such a strong effect, and with exhaustion it's basically impossible to use the exposed if you're good.
If you have a debate I'm now in the right head space to actually debate it.
Chasing the first survivor, even if they're bad, with exhaustion takes thirty seconds enough for the first Gen to pop if all three people work on it.
This thirty seconds can easily be extended by shift W, and pre dropping. Then you got people who play immersed which are time consuming to find.
"So drop chase" you can't keep dropping chase repeatedly, and if everyone pre drops and pre runs then it takes forever, keep in mind this takes no skill.
Ignoring the fact it takes 90 seconds to finish a gen (not accounting for perks or toolboxes) alone and 40 esque seconds theres flaws with this. First, what exhaustion is the survivor running? Deadhard will not help them if its their first chase, while overcome will not help against the likes of Billy, Bubba, or Meyers. Second, is it the first chase which almost always takes the longest? Second or fourth where some or more resources are spent? Especially if theyre pre-dropping? Has the killer been bouncing around survivors causing chaos? Third many killers use their power to shorten chases. Ghoul can straight up ignore pre-running as can blight and Billy. Once trapper is set a chase can be immediately shortened by one mistake. Well aimed shots from artist or huntress cuts chases short. Henry, Nurse and Pyramidhead could straight up ignore pre-dropping. Were survivors interrupted during any chase? Other perks used? There's a myriad of things that affect a trial.
Generators also go by to fast, with hyper focus stake out, a gen can be done easily in under 40 seconds solo, and stealth killers are usually weaker and easier to loop so the extra Gen speed is not needed.
Hit and run is also useless because botany, God medkits, lend a hand, Boon circle of healing, and the millions of other healing perks.
Can be and actually are different scinarios. That combo requires skill checks which are inconsistent as sometimes you spend 60 seconds on a gen before you see a single one. As above various factors influence the trial. Funny enough stealth killers semi counter stake out since you need to be in a terror radius. Meanwhile hit and run is still alive despite thoughts to the contrary. Those perks help against it true, but only one of those doesn't kill it and survivors only have 4 slots to use. Many have also shown an inclination to not bring to much altruistic perks unless its whatever new flavor of the month.
Tunneling is easily countered by STB, DS, OTR, BT, Baby sitter, and DH is a powerful perk that you only get by hooking.
So the funny thing is that all those but DH only helps the would be tunneled target. Shoulder the Burden can backfire spectacularly due to sheer luck. DS doesn't help much against alot of the cast or if theres nothing to work with due to pre-dropping. OTR is basically a better BT which protects you from being tunneled for 1 hit that usually gets chewed through anyway due to said tunneling. Babysitter only affects the unhooked bar the aura reading. Deadhard meanwhile is a parry which can be baited…and can ironically enough be countered by tunneling since you cant use it while in deep-wounds. Weirdly enough if you dont tunnel you dont really got to deal with most of them.
Slugging is also countered by UB, EXPO, No Mither, FTP, Soul guard, WGLF, MFT, Conviction.
…Really? No mither?…
Ignoring the fact that no mither is being used for an arguement for the game being survivor sided: Unbreakable only works against slugging and only once. Exponential similarly only works against that tactic and while it works for the whole team, it can be snuffed out. If we have to explain the downsides of no mither im calling this a lost cause. For the People…kinda is just a general heal, it doesn't really counter slugging alone since theres now 2 injured survivors, possibly close depending on if the slug was guarded. I realize im kinda just listing what they do but its kinda to hammer the point home that these really only work against that tactic (bar for the people, which again a general heal). If you DONT do that tactic its a non issue and some of those have downsides.
Camping: Reassurance, and basic teamwork.
Again, one tactic for the perk. Basic teamwork could beat alot more than just camping if the killer isnt careful, but wheres the teamwork in solo que? Scattered in the fog. "High-level" or not unless they're a squad teamwork is an unfortunate tall ask as the survivors need to infer (aka: fancy guess work) what their team is doing and when.
Also Shoulder is easily the best perk in the game, even without vigil exposed is only good on M1 killers which their are only four good ones, Singularity, Houndmaster, Spirit, and Ghoul. And fourty seconds is 28 with vigil, which means it's counters the one downside for such a strong effect, and with exhaustion it's basically impossible to use the exposed if you're good.
Your opinions are your own though personally disagree. A: i've seen it blow up in peoples faces. B: It only moves a hookstate. Since I don't tunnel all it does is surprise me when someone dies due to miscounting and the fact someone actually brought it. The exposed doesn't even factor to me.
-
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095616#Comment_4095616
The fact you're fighting me this hard on trying to defend this game's silly made up unwritten rules is why this game is so hostile.
If everyone understood that tunneling was part of the game, tunneling someone because of their name would not be seen as any more unusual than hooking someone because of their name. If you hooked someone because of their name and then in end game chat tried to rub it in that you hooked them, people would think you're weird, because there's no stigma against that. But if you tunnel someone, you might get asked why you tunneled them, because that person has been conditioned to perceive tunneling as a personal attack. You see the problem here?
If you took someone who never played DBD before, explained the basic rules, and sat them in the killer role, their first instinct is going to be to tunnel. Why wouldn't you tunnel? Why would you not go for the person who is injured and closer to death? People get told not to do this by others. The expectation is set that it's bad to do it by others.
This is why this game's community has such a bad reputation. People come in, try it, then get told awful things because they were just trying to play the game and accidentally violated an unwritten code of conduct rule. Then they either go "screw this" and leave, or stick around and get conditioned to believe the same things.
The fact you're fighting me this hard on trying to defend this game's silly made up unwritten rules is why this game is so hostile.
Well, considering your practically defending people using things to make others miserable, i think ima keep fightin (also im very very bored and cant sleep).
If everyone understood that tunneling was part of the game, tunneling someone because of their name would not be seen as any more unusual than hooking someone because of their name.
So you realize I can make that sound really horrible correct? Idk if you know this but Bubba used to have special face cosmetics for each of the 4 original survivors. They don't exist anymore, care to guess why?
Moving on from that sentence. What I see is that you think that the whole mass of players is conditioned like a dog to see these as toxic which is false. To tie into my point:
But if you tunnel someone, you might get asked why you tunneled them, because that person has been conditioned to perceive tunneling as a personal attack.
Because maybe they wanna know if they made a mistake somewhere? Or maybe they were targeted before and want to see if theres a common cause? Definatly more reasons than simple conditioning. If someone decided to tunnel me explicitly and in the endgame said something along the lines of "You shouldn't be a rulebreaker"…gee i might take that abit personally if they don't explain. Or maybe even if they do if the explanation boils to "i don't like your name". If IM conditioned, its due to past experiences where its been proven that sometimes, they wanna make it personal.
If you took someone who never played DBD before, explained the basic rules, and sat them in the killer role, their first instinct is going to be to tunnel.
Ya know, funny enough I did do this long ago. They didn't tunnel on first instinct, they infact left the hook to look for others. Now, idk why they didnt (kinda proud looking back) but all i did was give advice after the trial for them. Maybe it was because it would have been impractical to do, maybe due to personality, its a bit late to ask. Never brought up tunneling or camping (though didn't need to for that as they'd be bored sitting at a hook) till once they asked about it from a salty survivor. They're not conditioned, as far as I figure they simply don't care too.
This is why this game's community has such a bad reputation.
…Certainly not the whole death threats, bming, and other things, nooooo…
So when someone tries survivor for the first time right and they're left on the dirt for most the match then get told somethin stupid what do you think goes on in their head? They see how (in this case) slugging is bad because they did nothing for most the match and get mocked for trying to play the game (which again they barely could). This then leads to what?
-
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095558#Comment_4095558
This is basically saying to me that "it's only toxic if we say so". That's basically saying "words are whatever we want them to mean".
Literally yes. Which ties in to the rest of what you wrote. The no-hook playstyle is annoying, but not inherently toxic, because it is a legitimate method of victory which is very strong. If it's a problem, it's on the developers to fix, not on the community to guilt each other to stop doing.
Let me use a different example.
Ever played any Street Fighter games? Or really any 2D fighting games.
If you had, you would know that getting put in the corner is a really bad position to be in, as the corner allows your opponent to do more effective combos on you and it's hard to fight your way out of it.
When I was a kid, and this was before the internet mind you as I am pretty old, we had a house rule that you weren't allowed to corner your opponent because of this. Because cornering your opponent was cheap and unfair. You had to simply let your opponent get out of the corner. If you didn't play along, we would say you're a jerk.
But of course, other people in the broader fighting game community who didn't play by those rules instead treated the corner like a normal part of the game. It's a position you try to force your opponent into as a natural part of gameplay. Nobody says it's toxic, because it's not, it's just a part of playing 2D fighters.
This is basically tunneling in DBD. Except that for some reason, the childish attitude me and my friends had became normalized in this community instead of being ignored, and now intentional game mechanics are treated as toxic.
Literally yes. Which ties in to the rest of what you wrote. The no-hook playstyle is annoying, but not inherently toxic, because it is a legitimate method of victory which is very strong. If it's a problem, it's on the developers to fix, not on the community to guilt each other to stop doing.
If thats true then everyones words dont mean anything. Its therefore both toxic and non toxic due to one group saying so and another saying its not. This then solves nothing while one group still makes another miserable. And again, my point is you can use a playstyle thats both legitimate AND toxic as they are not mutually exclusive. Slugging because you have a survivor under a pallet? Cool go for it. Slugging to watch them crawl into a corner to bleed out? Not cool no no. Now how could the game tell the intent? Short of it is it cant. Does that then mean that one of those isn't toxic? Not in my definition at least.
When I was a kid, and this was before the internet mind you as I am pretty old, we had a house rule that you weren't allowed to corner your opponent because of this. Because cornering your opponent was cheap and unfair. You had to simply let your opponent get out of the corner. If you didn't play along, we would say you're a jerk.
Now tell me, is DbD like an good ol fashion game of Soulcaliber? Both sides in equal starting? Both sides can do this or that near equally? In DbD, one side can vastly more easily throw the other into a "corner" with the other side able to do very little against it or to escape it. But again, the point is that you can use a "legitimate tactic" while being "toxic" depending on use. Pray tell, any of your friends break that house rule just to rile up the others?
Here's an example of how i see it: Think of a hammer. What can you do with a hammer? You can build a house. You can break someone's face. Its a tool with multiple uses. Some good, some probably not. Now think about tunneling. What could you do? You can tunnel someone whos literally the only one you ever see. You could tunnel that arrogant t-bagging clicky click survivor. You could tunnel that survivor due to their player name. Some good, some bad. Its a tool and how its used determines if its bad/toxic.
-
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095486#Comment_4095486
Also the abandon feature doesn't really remove people doing it does it?
Once again, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Yes, it did. The abandon feature completely killed 4 man bleedouts. You can't do it anymore, it's literally impossible, the survivors will just leave once all four of them are on the ground. Unless they WANT to get bled out for some reason, but the reason bleeding the whole team out was toxic is because it was just abusing the fact survivors couldn't do anything to stop it, the killer had already won, there was no reason to do it except to be mean.
It's similar to all remaining living survivors sitting on the exit gate refusing to leave. There is no reason to do that except to be mean. The killer can force them out unlike 4-man bleedouts, but it's not an action that's done to win the game.
People are still 4 man slugging because the no hook playstyle exists and is extremely effective. There are killers who do it because of this and because they want to annoy the survivors, but if there wasn't a community stigma against it, it could never be done to annoy the survivors.
Slugging for pressure and tunneling progress the game and get you closer to winning, they are not inherently toxic. The only reason it's done to be toxic is because the community decided it was toxic. If there was no community stigma against doing it, it could never be done to be toxic, similar to how it's never toxic to hook someone.
Do you understand now?
Yes, it did. The abandon feature completely killed 4 man bleedouts. You can't do it anymore, it's literally impossible, the survivors will just leave once all four of them are on the ground.
And yet people STILL slug everyone AND don't bother hooking everyone till they're bots. I don't abandon on principle, yes that is a me problem, yet it shows me a lot of intentions of people. People still try to do this and for what?
There are killers who do it because of this and because they want to annoy the survivors, but if there wasn't a community stigma against it, it could never be done to annoy the survivors.
The stigma comes from the fact that it's annoying survivors because they can't do anything. The stigma to the tactics didn't come till killers kept being toxic with it (bar the sore losers who always exist).
Slugging for pressure and tunneling progress the game and get you closer to winning, they are not inherently toxic.
And this is where we said that it depends on how it's used...
The only reason it's done to be toxic is because the community decided it was toxic.
…And this is where your incorrect. Now why was the above abandon feature for 4 man slugs added again? Because people kept Slugging everyone and not bothering to hook them. Before that feature was added what was the point of this bleed out?
If there was no community stigma against doing it, it could never be done to be toxic, similar to how it's never toxic to hook someone.
This is basically saying to me that "it's only toxic if we say so". That's basically saying "words are whatever we want them to mean".
-
@MashedBroccoli said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095469#Comment_4095469
a lot of what you posted was inaccurate. Or nonsense
Then EXPLAIN HOW AS THEY BEEN ASKING
-
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095459#Comment_4095459
Yeaaaaaa no. I've personally been tunneled and camped for my name of
"Rulebreaker". If you think people wouldn't do something just to spite
another here in the fog I got some stuff to sell.That's my point.
People do that because people think it's toxic to do that despite the fact they're intended game mechanics. So you can upset people by just playing the game the way it was designed.
If it was expected that the killer might tunnel you because you're in a vulnerable position, you wouldn't have people tunneling to be toxic, because that's just the expectation.
Imagine a world where the community decided that hooking was toxic. It's no less arbitrary than deciding tunneling is toxic. If you get hooked you get put closer to death, and there is a real chance this could have been the case since early in the game there was no Borrowed Time or DS or any sort of off-hook protection, and you could only unhook when standing directly in front of the survivor which the killer could block by standing there (aka where the term "face camping" originated from)
So the expectation in this hypothetical world would be that the killer would only slug people. So if a killer wanted to be toxic, they would put survivors on the hook, despite the fact this is an intended game mechanic.
You understand what I'm saying now?
Besides that point, what exactly would we equate to the team being
slugged and left to bleed out? No hooking after, just to bleed for
minutes?Sure but don't pretend like this is what I was talking about lol
This has nothing to do with trying to win the game. If you're gonna give me a "gotcha, it is how it's used" over this I am going to sigh, this is the kind of argument people make fun of redditors for.
Also it's not even possible anymore since the abandon feature exists.
This has nothing to do with trying to win the game.
Sigh all you want but that's my point. People using "valid" tactics in ways to **** off others. People are using these tactics in such a way where it's not to really progress the game, just to tick off the opponents, this is a fact. What do we call it? It's not banned or cheating, but if you're not finishing the job when you easily could, what are you doing? Why are you doing? Also the abandon feature doesn't really remove people doing it does it?
Besides that this:
It only depends on how it's used because people have equated it with toxicity
Kinda seems like your talking that all tunneling or Slugging is only toxic because people equate it to being toxic. Yet it can be used both "responsibly" for lack of better words and "toxicly" also for lack of better words.
And this:
So you can upset people by just playing the game the way it was designed.
Kinda confirmed it. Its not mutually exclusive, being in the game and being toxic. Both can be true.
-
@Zakon05 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095446#Comment_4095446
It only depends on how it's used because people have equated it with toxicity lol
If it were normalized to expect the killer to want to prioritize people closer to death, and for survivors to know this and play accordingly, you wouldn't have people who tunnel with the clear intention of trying to upset you.
you wouldn't have people who tunnel with the clear intention of trying to upset you.
Yeaaaaaa no. I've personally been tunneled and camped for my name of "Rulebreaker". If you think people wouldn't do something just to spite another here in the fog I got some stuff to sell.
Besides that point, what exactly would we equate to the team being slugged and left to bleed out? No hooking after, just to bleed for minutes?
-
@Zakon05 said:
I mean it doesn't help that the community has equated intended game mechanics with toxicity.
A significant number of players consider tunneling, slugging, and flashlight blinds to be toxic.
To be fair, it's how it's used.
Here's an old thread where I have a story where the killer used those mechanics both non toxic and toxic.
-
Hell yes proof!
-
@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094329#Comment_4094329
ill go point by point here:
- Killers don't need to sweat against your average survivors, your correct. However, realising they're your average survivors or not takes a chase or two, and gens can pop incredibly quickly if you chase the wrong person. To switch from chase 1/2 times and not get a down makes you feel the pressure to tunnel, even if only one gen has popped. I usually play sweaty for the first few chases then turn it down when i realise theyre just not that strong. It depends on the survivors and whether i can comfortably get a hook or two before 2 gens pop.
- I agree with tunneling/slugging not being below the belt, was just paraphrasing using the terminology used in the comment i quoted (might've been yours), im completely fine with good survivors playing efficiently and good killers playing efficiently. The comment "It going out of your way to tunnel at 5 gens despite other survivors literally throwing themselves at you where that becomes a problem" again i disagree. Much like how if a survivor group plays efficiently from the outset i don't scorn them. Its after a two/three chases that i start to question whether theyre slugging/tunneling cuz they have to or can. Even if 1 survivors throwing themselves under, doesn't mean two gens cant pop straight after, and then the heat is really on. But yes, you should tone it down once youve noticed theyre not that good.
- "What I quoted is true. I can win as the likes of GF, Pig, and Trapper even against your average swat squad with gimmicky builds. Now, I got to work my butt off for it compared to say Artist, but it can be done. Generally, all I see is people copying the meta or content creators which then leads to trouble when against people who know what they doing. Killers as a
wholeare just fine." sorry ima block quote and then pick it apart. I cannot get a consistent 2k with some of the weaker killers on none meta builds. I often play some of the weaker killers for fun (hag, cenobite, ghost face, doctor old myers ect). Yes that could be a skill issue, especially since im not as well versed with those killers (i main deathslinger, jason, wraith and huntress right now, very much a ranged killer main), but even when i play my mains i generally don't play the META build (for example my jason build is discordance, bbq, ruin and pain res rather than the totem build or friends till the end and furtive chase with two slowdown perks) but not weak builds as i understand the killers need them to play more casual. I agree killers as a whole are fine, i would also say survivors have a lot of tools to change that, and id rather overestimate them at first, see how the game goes, and then play depending on how skillfull they are than underestimate them, have to sweat my balls off to possibly get a 2k because I didn't go in sweating
I don't think we disagree on much here tbh.
- Depends on how long you chase the wrong person, but regardless of that I often switch chases and still don't feel pressured to tunnel. Its a person by person base on what they feel and unfortunately a large amount feel that need at the slightest provocation. One scenario i often find is I chase S1, hit, find S2 while chasing S1, hit S2 and chase them, see S3 hit and chase them. And while chasing S3 i find S1 doing something and go catch them relatively quick. During this time 2 gens have popped on the outskirts and another or two has been worked on to some progress. The reason I don't feel pressured to tunnel despite switching repeatedly and loosing gens is because I got one on the hook, 2 injured, the two gens are in unimportant areas, and who knows how many resources were burned. I got 2 potential easy targets, the gens that popped were in unimportant places, and I got near guaranteed shorter chases all due to the previous. It's how people look at their situation.
- I mean, if they literally threw themselves at the killer they should be out of a safe position and injured or worse case down. If the killer literally doesn't bother to grab them (assuming it's safe to) despite that then yes it becomes a problem because the killer is so hyper focused on that one the rest are basically getting no interactions until that tunneled survivor dies and that one basically has one long chase with nothing else going on that trial. Feel free to disagree all ya want but that's where my line is drawn and a lot of others have similar lines.
- You are not me. Just as you could probably do something amazing with huntress that I could only dream of, I'm able to fight swat squads with the likes of Ghost face with things like dark devotion. Everyone is different, which I suppose is the moral of the 3 points here.
It's all basically opinions. Though I personally disagree with some of yours as shown above.
-
@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094083#Comment_4094083
The issue is this is an argument only against the killer playing optimally, because they can take survivors out of the game, which is their job.
I've played against bully squads, proper bully squads not just some rando's with flashlights, and I've played against some pretty pretty insane blights/nurses/hillbillys (I've played against lillithomen's blight, and alf's nurse) but never complain about the sweaty/optimised playstyle because everyone's trying to win. Thats the point of the game, its only playing like "holding a knife to your throat" when a killer trys to win asap, but when survivors bring ds, head on, dead hard/sb, adrenaline with 4 flashlights and try and make your life a living hell whilst having 1 person set on gen's and them all being decent loopers, you also feel the "Knife at your throat" playstyle from them. At the end of the day, thats less likely to happen on survivors sure because 58% of survivors soloqueue, so most the time your against rando's, and so it feels worse to be tunnelled out/slugged for the 4k ect ect, but theyre both being tryhards and ignoring one sides fun for another.
I've made a couple posts about it, but if the game wants to remove these "below the belt tactics" that your of course alluding to (only from the killer, tunneling/slugging are the first that come to mind but theres probably 5/6 more you could educate me on) we need to casualise the game, which means whilst removing these tactics, also making it easier for killers to gain pressure (such as a basekit thanat) and make it easier to snowball so they don't need to sweat. It needs to be easier for killers to gain pressure, and also punish/remove the ability to tunnel/slug heavily. Doing one without the other just ruins one side, and I wouldn't advocate for either of them alone.
Killer is definitely stronger than your average soloqueue if they play the best killers/builds. The average killer vs the average survivor, killer probably beats. But we want diversity in killers/killer builds from the sounds of things, we want the trappers, ghostfaces and huntresses. So we do need the weaker killers to be stronger, and buff the communication between the soloqueue survivors so they go up to casual swf, and balance around that.
The issue is this is an argument only against the killer playing optimally, because they can take survivors out of the game, which is their job.
It's not just a killer thing, it's both sides (the playing optimally bit). The thing is that no one really calls out survivors on it even when they could OR try calling it just because they lost. Personal theory is because it's A: rarer (bar this event) B: the killer is still able to play the whole trial.
I've played against bully squads, proper bully yada yada this paragraph
Hence the above. You could have absolutely called "tryhard" on those survivors, yet didn't. I know some of my friends will call some survivors tryhards, either in good nature or scorn, but generally in discord or something and not in trial to them. That's a people thing.
I've made a couple posts about it, but if the game wants to remove these "below the belt tactics"
While I'm personally not opposed to free upgrades, I'ma point out something shocking. Killers don't need to sweat from the start of the trial to stand a chance against the average groups. It's when the survivors sweat first that the killer generally needs to sweat, but if the survivors don't sweat and the killer is sweating first they're going to die fast or in a crippled position at best. It's a weird "who draws first bead of sweat" stand off.
Funny enough tunneling and Slugging in itself isn't really below the belt. When you only see that recently unhooked survivor, no one sensible will argue. When you down someone under a pallet and there's someone else nearby no one should complain about being slugged. It going out of your way to tunnel at 5 gens despite other survivors literally throwing themselves at you where that becomes a problem. With Slugging it's "for the bleed out" or "I wanna slug everyone cause I'm a coward afraid of perks" or everyone's favorite "I'ma slug cause I neeeeeed that 4k for....I don't really know". See the difference? If not can't help ya.
Killer is definitely stronger than your average soloqueue
What I quoted is true. I can win as the likes of GF, Pig, and Trapper even against your average swat squad with gimmicky builds. Now, I got to work my butt off for it compared to say Artist, but it can be done. Generally, all I see is people copying the meta or content creators which then leads to trouble when against people who know what they doing. Killers as a whole are just fine.
-
@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094073#Comment_4094073
But if I am a player who likes to play to win every game? Which mode should I play on? There is none. A multiplayer PVP game is naturally gonna have players that want to win, and players who just want to chill, and that is why most games have a ranked and a normal mode, and you can't just ban players because they give their best at a game, so all you have to do is accept that people are gonna play different ways. Also, chill players shouldn't even care about players tryharding because if they don't care about winning, why would they care if the other side just stomped them? When I use a meme build or play a bad killer, I accept that I'm most likely gonna lose the moment I click to join a lobby, and I think that is logical.
And also, as I said, killers tryhard more because they are the weaker role of the two, so even if they get chill survivors (not the type that is goofing, but the type that is lowkey trying to win), they have to play much more focused because if they are in the same "vibe" as the survivors he will just lose, simply because survivor gameplay requires much less skill overall.
Your free to play on the normal mode, but your going to be called on for being a try hard if you play like there's a knife at your neck. And no you can't complain about it because you KNOW there's nothing really at stake yet continue to play like that in effectively a casual game. No one's getting banned over being a tryhard, but everyone has a right to call people on stuff that makes the game unfun for them. Your just as free to say something like "my fun is tryharding" and people got to accept that's what you like or whine just as when you get told to stop being a tryhard you either accept people don't like it or whine. But honestly in my opinion it would make the game more enjoyable to not have people sucking the life out of the game by optimizing themselves to basically be robots.
Moving on, it's not playing to win that's the problem. It's playing to win using every below the belt tactic and taking any joy out of the game for the others. Sure sometimes you even get the occasional game where everyone is tryharding and everyone enjoys themselves with everything silly or scummy thing happening, but are you really going to tell me that the average survivor likes to be non stopped chased from the start of each unhook to dead having about 3 or often less minutes actually being able to play? (Time on hook and dirt do not count towards these 3 or less min) That's why the "chill" players complain. The chill ones don't really care about winning, but if they lost due to cheep or straight up dull tactics instead of something interesting like a close game or a funny stomp…well skippy what do you think happens?
As for the second paragraph...are you talking about the event or normally? Cause let me tell ya...in normal 1v4 killer is the stronger of the 2. Que the outrage.
-
@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4094054#Comment_4094054
I never really get this argument that "killers have to stop tryharding". If the game had a ranked and normal gamemode, and people were just tryharding every game on normal mode, I would get it, but that is not the case, it only has one game mode, so people who want to play to win will just play the regular mode because well… There is no other option.
Also, survivors seem to tryhard less because it takes significantly less effort to play optimally as a survivor, but ultimately, survivors don't care about the killer's fun, and neither should the killers. It is a PVP game, not a coop experience with friends.
Since we have only one mode and it isnt a official "ranked" mode its by default "normal" mode. So by default when people go tryharding its basically in the casual mode. Generally though when survivors go "killers have to stop tryharding" around 90% of the time its because said killer is playing like their life is on the line…in a casual game with no stakes. Survivors meanwhile can only really tryhard if the whole team goes for it. One survivor going tryhard isn't really going to do much if the other 3 dip around.
As for your topic, after 3 rounds of pent up toxic survivors trying to vent at me, im making it a personal crusade to show them they're not invincible. And yes im succeeding.
-
We like asyms, we like horror, and some of our friends had it. How could we say no to spooky murder party?
-
Honestly Pinhead is a killer that can kinda run anything (ie: nothing is particularly bad on him) so depends on what they need/want as a player.
Personally like the one that hides the box unless survivors are close or a hunt starts, but that requires lots of bp to keep getting.
-
Personally neutral. It wouldn't really add much but it doesn't really hurt either. If both are being cleansed anyway your going to loose them both regardless since both totems were seen and 9/10 if it glows it goes. You'd delay it but then stuck with the choice of guards the totem or get to killing.
Btw the community will react varied according to the whims of bacon. Yes this statement makes as much sense as how some people react here
-
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092623#Comment_4092623
While it is a different configuration it still is a potential pallet spawn with the addition of props beside it.
But the thing is the props are NOT beside it. It's just a free spawn for Jason. If there were props there and it spawned in then sure fine and dandy, but there's a bit of stupid here just plopping a spawn because a different configuration can have one.
-
@Brimp said:
That actually is a pallet spawn all though a bit rarer. That has a chance to be a god pallet.
Look at Zakon's picture though. Thats a completely different configuration of the tile and the "broken pallet" in the middle of nothing…kiiiiiinda stupid aint it?
-
Generally it's the vein of "Don't be a [insert crude insulting choice of word] for low bar reasons".
Examples:
Slugging just to watch the bleed out.
Slugging for the 4k and not for the adept achievement.
Going out of your way to tunnel someone despite other viable targets literally throwing themselves at you. Not including Object users.
Waiting in the exit gate just to tbag despite knowing the killer ain't coming.
Sandbagging your teammates on purpose.
Ratting out a teammate who actually did work to try and save your own skin.
Giving up despite having decent odds to make a comeback there by throwing the rest of the team in the grinder.
Camping the hook and repeatedly smacking the survivor as if taunting. It'll backfire sure but still unnecessary for repeated smacks even if deserved.
Things best left unsaid in the endgame chat
There's probably more I'm forgetting but I'm lazy
-
@wesker_shades said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089394#Comment_4089394
Right, Devour also does this.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4089397#Comment_4089397
Correct. But all other instances does give you the warning.
sooo its not really breaking any sort of trend then is it?
-
@wesker_shades said:
Considering that every other instance of the Exposed status warns the survivors, but NOED does not, it really makes zero sense.
That bug actually made NOED more fair to play against, since you knew it was in play, before the first survivor went down.Doesn't Devour hope only warn when you hit someone too or was that changed?
-
@cogsturning said:
The side you dislike the most.
but what that side is the whole community?
-
I mean, it is also toxic but one is alot more harmful to the game than the other…
-
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088723#Comment_4088723
Super man off hook. Gets unhooked, healed, runs to chase off in the distance, takes 2 hits, downed, DS'd, and then DH'd. Quad healthstate off hook build and all it only really requires is being healed. Not to mention unhook perks the unhooker may have like Baby Sitter so tunneling them becomes impossible for those 30 seconds unless they pay literally no attention with that 120% movement speed. Please tell me how they're NOT superman off hook with the right build. At the very least we don't old OTR to make it so they can immediately run to a chase off hook with the old 80 second endurance.
Maybe if it still costed 75% of their build to have the quad health state off hook it would be MAYBE arguable but now when its only 50% it's genuinely insane.Actually it first requires you to be away from hook long enough for the heal, then for you to actively chase the one you know just got unhooked, then it requires you to pick up that one where any experienced killer would know the risks and chooses to take it and then continue tunneling that same survivor because your dead set on them apparently. Ya know so maybe go after the unhooker? Besides that obvious fact, the killers have ways to end chases quicker (Huntress can make shots making running into the distance pointless, Unknown and Hag can teleport, if freaking Trapper set up then alot of that is mute, Billy Blight catch up with billy having a bonus in instant downs, etc) which cuts pieces of that whole spectical. They aint superman, they definatly aint invincible, but if your going to directly tunnel and they prepared thats them bringing something(s) to counter another.
And if they dont have that build the killer can still try for free! Wild aint it?
-
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088681#Comment_4088681
There's no reason for it to be fixed by nerfing it though. The issue currently is survivors are potentially super man off hook so a lot of killer understandably don't want to deal with that. The issue isn't slugging being too oppressive rather it's certain killers being the most effective at it and survivor just being overtuned against a lot of the killers at the moment. This is something BHVR just needs to understand
The reason is because its dull for people to be forced onto the ground for 4 minutes being able to do bumkiss and becoming more and more popular that its becoming a common scenario. Doesn't mater if its a nerf, side grade, or straight up removal, if it CONTINUES TO BE A PROBLEM THEN ITS GOING TO GET BHVR'ED. Thats whats going to happen.
Superman off hook?…really?…I really wanna see the hoops for that thought. Its funny how often i see a tunneled survivor die quickly despite being a so called superman. Ds? Annoyance. Resurgence? Annoyance. DH? Three for three (and ususally see sprint burst more, which is 4 for 4).
-
@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4088648#Comment_4088648
You don't intend to kill the strategy but the way you go about it will. Like I'll agree it sucks that it's the way it is right now but straight up removing bleed outs only just makes it viable for the strongest killers in the roster while the others can't do anything outside of opportunity costs.
Then recomend spreading the word to stop this strategy then because its growing and if it becomes a big enough problem the devs are gonna have to solve it…and i think we all dont want to know what kinda mess that will be.
-
@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087621#Comment_4087621
Just adding something I forgot. BHVR is going to be publishing more indie horror games under a new name "Miss Behaviour" (not entirely sure if that's how it's stylized):
- Terrible Lizards: The trailer showed parkour and exploration in a museum environment and some kind of dinosaurs/lizard enemies.
- Don't Fret: No idea what this one is to be honest. Trailer showed off some kind of haunted music school. Looks like the player wields some kind of handheld device that relies on battery power to navigate the game.
- Mr Magpie's Harmless Card Game: Seemingly a horror-themed card game where you sit opposite a creepy mascot wiedling a gun.
There'll be some incentives in DbD to buy these games — charms were shown off for two of the games.
Don't Fret: From an old demo its a solo horror game with music elements (ex: charater is an instrament)
Didn't know they aquired it…so who knows what it changes.
-
@Gexahord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4086963#Comment_4086963
For me personally, movement speed is a vestige. Differences in default speeds constantly lead to endless balance changes, both individual and map-wide (like pallet density). Wouldn't it be more convenient to level this stat and focus more on powers and perks specifically, without regard for ms? That would make balancing a hundred times easier.
Convenient maybe but not very good.
Look at Henry. He's a 4.4 who hits through…well everything. Now what if he's normal speed without anything else? Now he has option 1 of learning his power for quick downs or option 2 to just run them down like anyone else. Now he could do this now, but currently it costs him more time which is detrimental because he's slower. His power would be needing nerfed, making it less effective (and looking at dev track record less interesting)…which kinda encourages more normal running survivors down probably once a Henry fails to land a handful of pot shots. Look at spirit. She's slow normal yet gets bursts of invisible super speed. What would happen to this one? Basically it would have nerfs across the board to powers…which are a reason why people play killers. Less uniqueness, strength, and reason to learn to use the powers.
As a side note, don't think movement speed is something is endlessly changing things like pallet density…
-
Why would anyone bother to learn how to use somethin difficult but awesome when everyone could always fall back to simply running the survivor down?