thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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I've been maining GF since he came out and he is definitely no bottom tier. He is high-mid tier, just below or equal to Myers. His power can be used for stealth, faster chases, or tracking. You just have to be aware of your surroundings and the general position of survivors. Yea when they break you out constantly it will be very difficult, but you can still play around that. Constantly stalking to get survivors 99'd, then next time you just tap stalk and mark them instantly can be very effective. His power has a lot of utility, and it's not always that easy to break his stalk. In fact some survivors go out of their way to break it which you can use to your advantage. But you really have to use all the different aspects of his power. If you just go pure stealth, or pure one shot, you're gonna have a bad time.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/587749#Comment_587749
Zubat was where I learned that once you know where the survivors spawn, it gets easier. <3
"I know where the survivors spawn" - Zubat
I've noticed from these videos that his main tactic is to just slug like crazy. He will go around and just down everyone super fast and 4k 5 gen the group. While super effective for getting kills, it's not going to earn him pips. So in a way, his strategy doesn't WIN him games, it just makes it so it's impossible for him to LOSE.
Like for me I want to pip. I don't care how many I kill (though I generally want at least 2k for that "balanced" game), I'm more concerned about a pip. Watching him play I would have just taken hooks a lot of the time and let them save. Sometimes this comes back to bite me in the ass, but usually I still 4k from it. Yesterday I had a game as GF where I caught all 4 of them by my Ruin at the start of the game. I hit each one with Sloppy, then caught the Jane. It's just went downhill for them because I intercepted one making the save, which gave me 2 hooks at once, then found one trying to heal near the first hooked. I picked them up for a hook and came across the last guy, who (after hooking) I chase to make the save, downed them then just went for the win on the last guy. I ended up with a safety pip, 4k 5 gen, which is something I normally try to avoid. I will let the game play out and stuff, just these guys made all the wrong moves and there's only so much I can do to give them opportunities. I would have drop reset one of them but they were an SWF and I didn't want them DC'ing or thinking I wanted to farm, so I just took the game and moved on.
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@GrootDude said:
@thesuicidefox as an LF main I have to say he isn’t F tier. He is a solid B tier once you learn his chainsaw.
LF can be effective, but a tier list is a ranking of strongest to weakest. It's something where you compare one character to another and see which is superior. In that context, LF is below every other killer in the game because he lacks many of the tools they do.
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@MegMain98 said:
@thesuicidefox I understand why you’d put Ghostface above Plague but I honestly put Plague above both GF and Myers. She has a constant instadown if survivors don’t cleanse and if they DO happen to cleanse then her ranged attack will more than likely down a survivor. I’ve downed an entire team with one Corrupt Purge. I dunno...maybe I’m a little bias because I think the stalky brothers are a bore to play but I have most luck with Plague.
I would also say Hag has no bad maps for her as well. She has way better map pressure than Trapper and Haddonfield does not completely destroy her like all other killers not named Trapper.
I would say Nurse but Lery’s kinda hurts her. It’s Nurse though and if you’re good she really doesn’t care about what map she gets.
The thing is she is tall AF and has 0 stealth capabilities. Stealth killers can actually be very effective. Plague has no map pressure with her power, and being one shot the entire game doesn't mean much if they see you coming a mile away. Myers/GF on the other hand can actually get close to you, and GF in particular can both one shot AND get close to you.
Plague is potentially very high tier because of Corrupt Purge. However, due to the fact survivors can just flat out deny her this power and the fact she has nothing else going for her I don't think she's all that great. Just too easy to counter and avoid.
Hag definitely has bad maps, specifically Coldwind maps. Being short means it's easy to lose survivors in the corn even if you are a good tracker. I'm the kind of player that is usually not cornblind but when I play Hag it's a different story. In theory she can be strong on these maps, but the corn messes with that theory. And she can shut down loops on Haddonfield or Badham, but not nearly as well as the Trapper. But after Trapper and Spirit I'd say Hag is the third least map dependent killer.
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Between this and the Nurse thread, the only logical conclusion is...
Zubat is OP. Please nerf.
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I just want to make a point about "10,000 hours". I honestly don't think that's physically possible. If you assume the average game is 10 minutes, that means in order to have that many hours Zubat would have had to play something like 55 games a day. That equates to just over 9 hours EVERY DAY SINCE THE GAME CAME OUT. I'm rounding off and assuming things, but I don't think it's possible to have 10k hours in this game, even for someone like him that plays a LOT. 5k is way more reasonable (I know Puppers has around that much, and I have a friend that has probably about that much on Xbox).
Unless someone wants to link me his Steam profile to prove he has that many hours I don't believe it. And keep in mind that these time trackers track how long you've been in the game, not how much you played. That means that menus, lobbies, etc. all count towards the time, which means that whatever the number is the ACTUAL hours of gameplay is probably something like two-thirds of that.
EDIT: Just saw @Sairek comment about his time. Yea 10k hours is a LOT. For example, in the entire Gears of War series (as in 1, 2, 3, 4, Judgment, and UE) I have something like 30,000 versus matches. At 15 minutes each on average that's 7.5k hours for versus only. Factor in campaign/Horde/other modes and I would just barely reach 10k hours. This is across 6 games and 12 years.
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@ClogWench said:
Idk why people insist on making his power work through downing with deep wounds. It's the same as pig, you're intended to use it to extend the game, and it only has killing potential to make it actually something you need to deal with
Exactly. His power isn't meant to down survivors just as RBT's aren't meant to kill. It's the THREAT of going down/death when the power becomes effective. And while I'll agree that Legion's power isn't all that great at what it's supposed to do, that doesn't mean it should be better at doing what it's not supposed to do.
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What's even funnier is that you can score Protection Hits even if you didn't actually protect anyone. They are so buggy and inconsistent, it really surprises me they would change MOM without addressing this first.
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@xXNurseXx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/587480#Comment_587480
Ya ! Zubat has maybe like 10k hours in total but i doubt he has even put 500 hours in nurse.
and stop fooling yourself even an good swf couldnt do anything again zubat´s nurse also shouldnt we balance the game around good players? why would we even bother to balance the game for bad nurse players?
He 4ks easily every game with nurse even without addons. doesnt matter if swf or not.
it blows my mind that ppl are still defending nurse
"He 4ks easily every game with nurse even without addons. doesnt matter if swf or not."
Okay so do you have a video of him against a top tier 4 man SWF with meta perks? Because that would actually be more convincing evidence.
None of these survivors were even red rank. One guy had Plunderer's.
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Hag is better than Huntress currently.
LF is below Legion. At least Legion can generate SOME pressure if he can managed to get multiple survivors in Deep Wounds at once. Also Sloppy/Thana combo on him is ridiculously good.
Trapper should be top of that tier because he has very strong snowball potential off just 1 trap hit, and has a very strong basement game. He's also the only killer with no "bad" maps. They are mostly neutral or good for him. Haddonfield is a great example, he is really the only killer that can be a threat on this map because he can shut down the house loops with traps.
GF is better than Plague because he has both stealth AND a one shot. In fact I would put him right behind Myers. He is basically a Myers clone that can do both things at once. If you are aware of your surroundings and have an idea where survivors generally are you can avoid getting spotted with good positioning and crouching. You can also use it to your advantage to find survivors.
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@SnakeSound222 said:
This is why I think the Cypress Mori should become part of the Killer's base kit. Or maybe just give the Killer a free Ivory Mori until they complete the ritual.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/583401#Comment_583401
What if you don't have those perks or Killers (Hag is not included in the base game on PC)?
There are some issues with just giving the killer a free mori. There might be a circumstance where the last survivor could actually wiggle out or something but now that's not an option. As for the second part, I could see that being abused to farm free moris.
I think a better idea is to just remove the ritual entirely. Or make it universal to any killer so that you're not stuck with doing it on a killer you have no moris.
IMHO, a lot of the dailies need to be changed. Some like Trapper traps dailies are mostly lucky based, while others like Freddy's Dream Chaser are just givens.
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Nurse teleports.
Hag teleports.
Spirit doesn't teleport, she phase walks.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/585540#Comment_585540
Sure you can. I've seen it.
You can't. It used to be a thing but not anymore. You can only have 2 people healing at once.
The fact you don't know this proves how little survivor you actually play, which thus leads to the conclusion you are 100% killer biased.
Also in order for any of this to work, everyone has to drop what they are doing to heal the person. That means you all have to be swarming the killer at all times, which means no one is doing gens. If no one does gens, and you need a medkit for this to even work, eventually it will stop working and the killer will be able to down you all.
Plus if the killer runs Sloppy, Courlo, or Thana it will make it not work. If the killer has a one shot it won't work. If you fail a skill check it won't work.
This is an example of when you can't just "math" the game. In theory this MAY be possible, but in practice it is impossible. Prove me wrong though, make a video where you do it. You can't, specifically because only 2 can heal at once, but also because this just isn't how things work in the real world.
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It's still RNG, but the dice roll happens at the start of the game not when someone is searching a box.
@Clockso said:
still no excuse to make them removable at the first box, i as a killer feel so robbed when they get it off in the first one when it could've actually slowed them down, whats funny is even when i use 2 VERY RARE add ons (jigsaw's sketch + crate of gears) they still have a chance to remove it first try
And as survivor, you feel robbed if you have to search all 4 boxes. Which happens more than you think, but as killer you only notice when they get the trap off right away, NOT when they have to do every box. This is something killers ignore constantly when it comes to Pig. God forbid a player just gets lucky and goes to the right box the first time, but it's totally okay when they have 0 luck and have to do every box. Hypocrisy is strong.
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IMHO there were better designs submitted.
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Why use 2 perks with a chance to fail when you can just use Deliverance?
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Sloppy + Thana is actually a strong combo. I would ditch M&A for a tracking perk like BBQ or Nurse's. Other than that seems fine.
My go to build is BBQ, MYC, Ruin or PGTW, and Stridor. BBQ + MYC and BBQ + PGTW are both very strong combos. MYC in general is very strong on Spirit, you are giving the best chaser in the game a one shot. Stridor is necessary to counter Iron Will and improve your tracking during phase walk. Ruin is just always good to have.
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No killers don't need buffs. It's easier than ever to play killer now.
What the game needs is a nerf to survivors. Specifically, some sort of limit to how fast they can do generators. Do that and you instantly make every killer below Billy viable at high ranks.
And when I say "nerf" I mean that whatever it is, it only ONLY affects survivors that rush gens. It should not have any impact on survivors that pace themselves (eg. low rank survivors). Just so that killers have opportunities to make plays.
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@JESUS_CHRIST said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/581682#Comment_581682
It depends on the game but some are a lot cheaper than PC when bought used. I don't mind paying a little more though so that most of the money actually goes back to the people that made the game. Steam get their 20 percent or whatever it is now too but what evs.
My point was that console gaming isn't really that expensive when compared to PC. It's about how much you WANT to spend.
For example, I own Xbox One X ($500), an Xbox Elite Controller ($150), Astro A50's ($300), and a 40-inch (ish) Samsung LCD TV (IDK the exact model, but like $250 or more prolly). I spend a lot on my gaming, and if I played games on PC I would spend a lot of money there too for a high end PC with all the trimmings (easily like $2k). Only reason I don't is because I know I would spend a lot more money if I was a PC gamer, and Xbox already gives me everything I want from gaming. I'm just waiting for developers to realize that they can enable fully native m/kb support for their games so I can go buy a really good mouse and play mouse + controller combo (b/c analog stick > KB when it comes to movement).
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I want that Spirit outfit.
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I watch streams/YT more for the player than who they are playing. Though I honestly could care less if they are playing LF, Legion, or Doc, just because those killers are boring to watch.
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Yea it's the reason they took away the LOL and dislike buttons. Killer mains especially would just abuse it.
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@DaS_only said:
U probably misunderstood him. It's no secret that console players will never reach the skill which is pc had because of controller limitations. I mean, the best killer on pc is the worst killer on console, that's already saying something. So I'm case we want to balance around high level play it's better to listen to experienced and skilled players from the pc environment. That doesn't mean console have no word. I just think pc players word weights more in this game.
And btw, it depends on the game. In a game like dark souls I would rather listen to console players than pc players because the controller allows you to do high skilled techniques which are not possible on with mouse and keyboard.
This isn't Counter Strike. Having a mouse isn't nearly as a big of an advantage playing killer, unless you are playing Nurse or Huntress but even then they are still very strong killers in experienced hands. It's just MOST people refuse to actually put in the time to learn them because it's harder, so the average skill of people playing these killers is way lower than PC. Nurse is still the best killer on console, it's just only a select few have put in the time to get that good with her. I'm friends with most of the top 5 Nurse players on Xbox. They will crush you, trust me.
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@fluffymareep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/581759#Comment_581759
I honestly do just fine with saves without BT. It's only really an issue if the killer decides to camp, but I like to change my role in the group every once in a while. I haven't used BT in a while except when I have saving dailies. I usually adjust what I do according to what others are doing, really. No one going for saves? I'll go. No one doing gens? I got it. It's why I really like bond. I can get close and see if anyone's setting up for the save or I can see someone heading over. I can also see where teammates are if we need to have a healing party. I bring Iron Will a lot of the times, too.
Thing is sometimes you NEED BT to make the save. So for me, I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. It's not that I'm bad at making saves, I can make safe rescues, it's just sometimes there's no other option.
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@Kabu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/581891#Comment_581891
@Spirit_Hag Thank you for further adding onto what counters Spirit has. It's incredible that people quote me stating she is uncounterable when I LISTED a couple of counters to her in said qoute.
What has been listed so far: She moves grass, has footstep sounds, and disturbs crows when phasing. All of which are noticeable inside her terror radius. She also has an audio cue while phasing(when outside terror radius).
To add further, if you suspect she's faking her power then run towards and slow vault a window or flashlight her. When she messes up and is without relevant add ons her recharge time is slow which punishes her with 110% movement speed. If she chose recharge time addons that takes the place of other possible ones like speed or duration. If you make it into a guessing game you are playing against her wrong and deserve to lose.
ALL THE ABOVE COUNTERS ARE WITHOUT USING PERKS. WITH PERKS, SPINE CHILL AND IRON WILL ARE EXCELLENT AGAINST ALL KILLERS INCLUDING SPIRIT.
Maybe, the issue here is that those complaining about Spirit are bad at the game. At the very least bad at playing against her.
Again, it is entirely possible to escape vs a good Spirit. It's difficult, as it should be, but possible. Just as it's possible for a good Spirit to do well against good survivors.
And those people always say the same things when you bring up valid counters to Spirit.
"Stealth isn't a counter you can't do it in a chase." Well if you never get found you never have to deal with a chase. Also you can stealth during a chase it's just not easy and depends on the circumstances. TruTalent stealthed a Nurse is one of his recent vids during a chase. It was a risk because she COULD HAVE seen his blood, but he took the gamble and it worked. It's not her messing up, it's him making a ballsy move and getting away with it. Stealth is a gameplay option, and while not optimal, if it keeps you from dying I could call that a counter.
"Perks are not counter play" yet they exist in the game. You can't look at things in a bubble and say this kinda #########. Put on Iron Will and Spine Chill and I guarantee you will have way WAY less trouble against Spirit or Nurse. Not to mention, other perks counter other kills really hard. Small Game counters Trapper. Urban Evasion counters Hag. Calm Spirit completely counters Doc. If you have these perks against these killers you will give them a really hard time. And it's not like Iron Will/Spine Chill are bad perks, they are great perks that can be used against every single killer. I know I use them, I don't see why its a problem to use certain perks to counter a killer, especially when those perks make such a huge difference.
Fact of the matter is you can counter a good Nurse or Spirit, you just can't do it by doing the same thing you do against every other killer. Also good prediction skills are necessary, which is something you literally can't teach to someone. Either you are good at reads or you're not. It's not something that is easily taught or learned. It requires a creative mind and an understand of your opponent from a psychological perspective.
But I'm sure the usual suspects will come in here to tell me how "stealth/perks are not counters".
The only thing I agree with about nerfing Nurse/Spirit are add-ons. Multi-blinks and omega blinks shouldn't be a thing, and Prayer Beads needs some sort of drawback so it's not EZ mode for killer. Outside that these killers are just fine the way they are.
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@Spirit_Hag said:
im so confused by people saying theres no counter to spirit. Even with the beads. The grass rustles when shes phasing, you can literally hear her feet slapping against the ground as she moves, she disturbs crows as she phases, theres literally a perk called spine chill that glows when your in LOS of the killer, the list goes on lol get you a pair of good headphones, get a good monitor/tv and get gud, and youll be fine. I think nurse and spirit are the most fun to go againt because you cant just bully them. You have to actually be good at the game to escape a good spirit/nurse player.
While I agree with everything else, you are wrong that Spirit makes grass/corn move when she phases. The only thing that reacts to her when she phases are crows. And the footsteps thing is supposedly a bug, though I think it should be present if she uses Prayer Beads.
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Nnnnnope.
My build has been Balanced, Iron Will, Spine Chill, and BT for a while now. Sometimes I'll swap BT for Adren, but I'd rather have the ability to rush hooks. And if I'm going to offer Lery's I'll do Lithe instead of Balanced, but that's rare.
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@George_Soros "You can't use it for real stuff (work), you can't upgrade it, and you have to put up with paying more for games than on PC. "
Paying more for games? Dude...
Games For Gold... If you are an Xbox Live Gold member you get 4-5 free games every month. 2 Xbox 360 BWC games, and 2 Xbox One games. Then sometimes there is a 5th game that's free all month.
Gamepass Ultimate... I just converted 2 years of my Xbox Live Gold to Gamepass Ultimate for $1. I can play like 100+ games for free right now (and my subscription lasts until 1/1/2022). And they add new games all the time.
Deals For Gold... If you have Xbox Live Gold they have deals every month, usually like >50% off the full price.
Xbox One X was $500 on launch, now it's on sale (IDK what the price is currently). A decent PC will set you back $1000.
So I'm not really sure why you think we pay more for games. Yea you probably have a lot of free games on PC, but we aren't really paying that much for games. New AAA games will be $60 no matter what platform you play on.
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@Im2Shrewd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/566692#Comment_566692
Balanced Landing more skillful than Dead Hard? Nah chief. That’s the easiest exhaustion perk besides Adrenaline.
I’ll say Iron Will, pulling off jukes and losing the killer mid chase with it is super satisfying and takes some skill to master.
Balanced Landing requires map knowledge and good positioning to use correctly. If you don't know how tiles spawn you, if you don't know how to route to get to the drop tiles, you will not get any use out of Balanced. You also have to know the little spots where you can use it, like certain stairs or the tree on Shelter Woods.
Dead Hard doesn't require any skill because it's just pushing a button when the killer is nearby. There are instances where it does take skill, like using it properly to evade a hit to make it to a pallet or window, but majority of the time survivors just wait for you to get close and press the button. It's super easy to counter, I will literally fall for Dead Hard once as killer. After that I just wait for you to use it and then hit you.
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INSERT NEA JOKE HERE
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@yobuddd said:
@thesuicidefox I’m curious to know if that works when you get around to it. The only killer I’ve prestiged so far is the Hag, so there must be some other factor for why I don’t see splinters for Myers anymore.
I will try to remember to let you know but it won't be anytime soon. I have Myers at level 50 but I barely ever play him. I just want to use my pink add-ons for Evil Incarnate achievement, and then his adept. After that I will probably prestige him, but I'm most likely going to wait until after the next DLC chapter.
Hopefully the devs just flat out fix this by then so I don't even need to bother.
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@yobuddd Well someone had mentioned to me a while ago that prestiging those characters will make it stop, but I don't want to do that just yet because I still have add-ons and offerings I'd like to use on Myers.
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I bought all DLC's with money through the Xbox store. Plague is the only killer I got with shards. Myers I bought with auric cells through the game's store. I still get Black Splinters in all my blood webs. It's really annoying, particularly because it eats up the ultra rare drop in my blood web.
I really hope devs look into this and fix it. If I own the character I shouldn't be getting shards. Doesn't matter how I bought them.
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@KillermainBTWm8 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/580381#Comment_580381
@thesuicidefox I agree with you especially since I play both PC and Xbox and honestly Xbox is harder on killer players than PC because on Xbox many of the high tier killers are way harder to play due to controller sensitivity. Almost everyone is on comms as well. Also is your forum name the same as on Xbox I feel like I've ran into you before.
It is the same, so prolly.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/580244#Comment_580244
Peanits did take our ideas and implement them into the game. They took your totem ideas, and they took my "Killer Diversion" idea when other survivors do stuff while you're in a chase.
So, console players do have a voice in this community.
Oh yea for sure. I'm talking about the community members that think console players are somehow below them, or that console players are automatically bad at the game. I bet the best players on Xbox would still be among the best if they played on PC.
And like I pointed out to some jerkward on YT, Xbox games are like 90% going to be 3/4 man SWF groups, so in a way it's going to generally be more challenging than PC or even PS4. Xbox is superior when it comes to online multiplayer and it's super easy to form a group in any game. Heck, I could play solo and just invite everyone in the lobby to a party, now we are a 4 man SWF. Which happens a lot, I get party invites from the randoms all the time.
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I think I know exactly who you are talking about, and he has a huge ego, no matter how humble he may claim to be LOL.
But yea I play on Xbox. It pisses me off when people go "oh you play on console" like I'm some sort of buffoon that can barely walk in a straight line and have no concept of what a video game is or something.
I'd be willing to bet that most PC players would get stomped by the best console players, because if you are good at the game it doesn't matter what platform you use.
I also find it funny how this person thinks people in his region are better than other regions. How would you even know if you never play outside your region?
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Yes. And its effect is universal, meaning that if you are playing survivor with Iron Will and killer has Stridor you will hear yourself cry out in pain.
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This might sound weird but...
Thrill of the Hunt. Mainly because killers usually run this to protect Ruin, which means they will be SUPER campy on their totems to the point they will throw the game to protect their totems. It's just really annoying that killers can't accept that totems aren't meant to last the whole game. If they would just take the chases to get the hooks they can generate enough early pressure to make Ruin worth it and therefore don't need to protect it as hard. If a killer does it as part of a particular build, like with Devour, it's not so bad and more understandable why they would protect their totems. But when a killer just throws it on so they can camp their Ruin super hard it's just irritating. Just to spite them I ignore the totems and rush gens, then I do the totems after all the gens are done.
I also hate Urban Evasion as survivor because people that use it insist on playing super immersed all the time and have 0 sense of urgency. They will be crouch walking everywhere and don't seem to understand that sometimes you want to, no, NEED to run places.
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@BBQnDemogorgon said:
@thesuicidefox I think they meant for survivors xD
Like if the Entity was dumb enough to take the doom slayer to survive but couldn't separate him from his guns.
Doom Slayer doesn't need guns...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU_e93G0hHYAlso he would totally kill the Entity. Even if it can't die, Doomslayer would still kill it. He is THAT much of a badass.
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Just imagine Nurse carrying that thing around LOL
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@[Deleted User] said:
All killer > any survivor
Because you only have to escape as survivor.
Merciless victory is lot more sweat depending on rank.
I actually find it very easy to get Merciless with killer on the emblem system. It's just a matter of getting a snowball going early in the game and then playing as fair as you can to get max Malicious/Chaser and all the hooks you need for Devout. If you tunnel/camp someone you're not gonna get it.
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David because he has No Mither.
Huntress because all her perks suck and she needs tracking perks like Whispers or BBQ to really be effective.
Also Freddy but only because he is the weakest killer. This will change after his rework though.
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It should stay 4s per stack but you should be able to get 5 stacks so it adds 20s to the door.
Then just make it so that if killer closes hatch the obsession changes to the final survivor (or one of the final survivors if they used a key).
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/577038#Comment_577038
Just like the Nurse situation, I'd love to see footage of a top level Spirit being consistently countered in chases.
Until I do, theorycrafting is just theorycrafting.
Stealth isn't counterplay IN CHASES. A great Spirit can be beaten depending on the level of the team and the size of the map, but she has no counterplay in chases. Not until I see it being consistently done.
I could literally make the same demand.
Until someone can provide video proof that these killers are overpowered, where they just absolutely dominate every survivor in every game, then it's just theory crafting.
The only things I would say need fixing for Nurse, Spirit, and Billy are their add-ons. Multi-blink/Prayer Beads need to be changed, and Billy's add-ons should be higher rarity or something (this was something I agreed with on Scott's video). But at base, I don't believe these killers are overpowered or uncounterable. Strong? Yes. Can't be countered? No.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/576181#Comment_576181
there is really no convincing you about anything regarding spirit
which is unfortunate, because you seem to be reasonable about pretty much everything else
colliding with a spirit does nothing for a survivor except tell them that they're about to die
of course, we're talking about decent spirit players
Maybe because I just don't buy into this idea that Spirit has no counter play. She definitely does. It's just every time someone makes a point about some counter play you just go "BLARG that's not real counter play". It's like those anti-vaxxers that just ignore plain evidence right in front of them. Let's go down the list...
1) Stealth. Yes it's a counter play option. You basically play cautiously and hide when the killer is near and/or move to a new location if the killer is looking for you. You always make a point that you can't stealth and do gens, which is false. You totally can, it's just that when you are doing a gen and you hear the killer coming you leave. You don't wait around the gen or do anything to draw attention to yourself. You just leave. Find another gen and work on that while the killer wastes time looking around the other gen for you. It's not optimal, I will agree to that, but you definitely can do gens and hide from the killer. It seems to me that your idea of stealth is just hiding in a locker or on the edge of the map doing nothing. Yea that's stealth, but its not PRODUCTIVE stealth.
2) Iron Will and Spine Chill. "OMG perks as counters" yea well here is the thing. THEY EXIST. You can't just look at things in a bubble and pretend that everyone plays perkless. Perks exist in the game and therefore you have to consider them when talking counter play. True it may be more difficult to counter play Spirit without these perks, but when you DO have these perks it makes a very VERY huge difference. I know, I use them both all the time. They are both very effective against many killers. When I get a Spirit I tend to not even have trouble with her because of these perks. It helps me stealth her AND it helps in a chase. I get Spirits, GOOD Spirits, to waste a lot of time on me, usually even escaping the chase. You can sit there and say "perks are not counter play" until you are blue in the face but until the devs introduce a perkless mode that's not a valid argument. It's like, I could argue that Hag has no counter play if you don't use Urban Evasion and a flashlight, but that's not true either is it? And even though Hag is a very strong killer, if you have UE and a flashlight it will be a cake walk.
3) Windows. Windows are very strong against the Spirit because she can't vault while phasing. So long as you don't do anything super predictable, you can use the window to get her to waste her phase walk and keep the chase going. You vault a window in the right spot now she has to go around and by the time she gets to the other side her power is gone. I'm sure you will make a point about how this isn't counter play either, but it very much is. I generally ignore pallets and just go for windows against the Spirit, and it works. With or without my perks it works. You just have to use the unpredictably, as running straight for a window, making it obvious you will vault, isn't going to work.
4) Unpredictability and reading skills. If you act in unpredictable ways then it will be a lot hard for the Spirit to catch you. She will be constantly coming out of phase walk at the wrong time, or missing a juke and then wasting her power. And if you can read your opponent, ie. predict what they are going to do, then you can act even more unpredictably. Doing weird stuff that wouldn't make sense against any other killer in a chase will throw off the Spirit player and give you more distance in a chase. Knowing what she is thinking and acting on that prediction will allow you to avoid getting hit out of phase walk.
My point here is that Spirit can be counter played, it's just none of these counter play options seem to be good enough for you. I don't know what kind of counter play you expect to have, but as someone that generally does not have a problem playing against Spirit (at rank 1 surv against good Spirit players, and as a rank 1 Spirit player) I can tell you she indeed does have counter play. It's just most people lack the skills necessary to really do it, particularly when it comes to #4. And refusing to use perks to counter a killer does not mean the killer has no counter play. It just means you refuse to engage in that counter play.
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@Joao_Bandicoot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/575956#Comment_575956
If you watched the Saw you know that Rigged games are Amanda's thing so (lore wise) it makes sense.
Lore is no excuse to have a rigged RNG system. If that were the case then they would just make it so you could never remove the trap, which actually makes MORE sense lore-wise since Amanda rigged the games so there was 0 chance to escape.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/576198#Comment_576198
If you're a Spirit and you bump into a survivor, you get a free hit. That's the difference.
If the survivor doesn't react. The survivor can react to it and you miss the attack out of phase.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/576181#Comment_576181
From my experience playing Spirit (and I play her quite a bit) collision during phasewalk is a godsend to her. Especially when people are running Iron Will.
I get that you can do some cool plays as survivors in specific scenarios, but having collision benefits the Spirit player way less situationally.
Well think about it this way... if she has no collision she can just run ahead of you to the pallet and come from the other direction. Whereas with collision she either has to come from behind (which is predictable) or she has to go all the way around to the other side of the pallet, which is slower and gives the survivor an opportunity to take another path (if they predict it).
That's what I would do. I'd just run through people and attack as they run into me, and they have no way to really tell what direction I'm going. It's not that hard to realize "oh this survivor turned around" mid-phase just using sound cues.
Point is, I don't think this would have the result you guys are looking for. It'd just open a new can of worms really.
What I would say is adjust the way her hitbox works coming out of phase so that's it's more strict. That way you have to be a lot more exact with your post-phase walk attack. I think that would have a much better result because it makes phase attacks more skillful compared to a normal attack.
If you are survivor against a Spirit and you suddenly find yourself bumping into her, that's your cue to get squirrelly with your movements. I rarely find people because they run into me and I didn't know it. Most of the time I knew where they were and I used my collision to block them from a window or something on purpose.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/575401#Comment_575401
collision doesn't hurt her at all and literally gives her hits and downs mid-chase, often rewarding her for misreading the survivor and punishing the survivor for making the right call. i realize you're a spirit main but her having mid-phase collision is objectively a pretty stupid mechanic. he outlines this in the video
along with the other changes he mentions in the videos (buffs to most killers and map changes) spirit definitely needs tweaking
Yea but you can use the collision to your advantage as survivor too, did you watch the clip? Having collision means she can be body blocked. It also means that you can bait her to pass through a pallet and then hit her with the pallet before she can react.
There are upsides and downsides to both, and I think it would be more detrimental if there was no collision mainly because then you wouldn't be able to do stuff like we did in the clip. She would have just flew right past all of us and got Dwight.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/575672#Comment_575672
"So we remove RNG from the equation purely to the benefit of the killer? Why don't we make the adjustment on the far end of the equation and make it so it's always going to be the second or third box because it's unfair to survivors if they have to search all 4."
What makes it unfair for Survivors? Your proposed change makes it so hooking by Jigsaw Boxes is bad because they can get the first box out of the way super easily, and from there, there is a 50% chance that the time wasted is very minimal. That is not a good direction.
"No increasing the base search time makes it so that, even if they get it off the first time, they are spending MORE time to do so. And then it increases the need to optimize your path if it just so happens that you need to do every box. That's ultimately what make gear add-ons so good, that they make survivors spend more time at boxes even if it's just 1 box."
In the best case scenario where you just make Crate of Gears base kit (assuming you remove the actual Crate of Gears to compensate), you are only increasing the time wasted by 3 seconds if the trap is removed at the first box. What makes Gear add-ons good is that the ability gets progressively better with each box the Survivor has to search through. If they only have to search one box, Crate did very little for that Trap, and the Pig still lost a significant amount of stalling.
"You can't have your cake and eat it too. Pig's power is RNG based, doing anything to influence that makes it not RNG, and if it's only to the benefit of the killer that's unfair."
Do not agree. At all. A 33% chance to search in 2 boxes and a 66% chance to search 3 boxes is still RNG. This is fact.
"And then what about when we start messing with the RBT timer or number of boxes? Should the RNG still favor the killer, because all that would do is result in more kills from RBT, which the devs have stated they don't want because RBT is not meant to kill it's meant to be a new objective for survivors."
As long as the best case scenario (searching every box) is not unwinnable for the Survivors even with no input from the Pig, then this should not be an issue. If it was unwinnable, that would be a problem with the Pig fundamentally and something would have to be done to mitigate that regardless of whether or not anything else gets changed. If it is not a problem with the Pig now, I don't see how it would be a problem if the first box never produced a Key.
"Yea it sucks when a survivor gets the trap off the first time, but like I said for every survivor that gets it off the first time there is another that has to search all 4 boxes. As killer you only notice the former and not the latter."
The problem is that the low end hurts the Pig a lot more than the high end helps Pig (barring a Trap kill, which is both super rare and should not really be factored in). The low end means that the Pig lost a lot of stall potential while the high end means that one person gets temporarily knocked out of the game. The high end is not irrelevant, but only one of those scenarios can be flat-out game-losing.
"You are asking for RNG to favor one side and punish the other. That's not RNG, that's a rigged system. One that's ultimately unfair to survivors. Like, you could totally abuse this by simply making sure someone never gets to search a box. Once you get to a certain point, it's a guaranteed RBT kill because they won't have time to search 2 boxes. That is dumb."
Uh, no, it's still RNG. RNG more in favor of the Pig, yes, but still RNG. I do not agree that it is unfair to Survivors. And I believe that the needle needs to swing slightly more in the Pig's favor at least in the sense of mitigating the low end. Also, the situation you are describing is both extremely inefficient and not worth it for the Pig to attempt and still 75% (80% with 5 boxes, and 83.3% with 6) chance of working if you attempt it right not. It is silly to use such a bad strategy as a reason to argue that this is a bad suggestion.
"Honestly a better solution is to remove the stipulation that a gen needs to be complete for the RBT to activate, and it's just active when you put it on a survivor. They did this because they thought that strategy would be to not finish gens so you have more time to do the RBT, but survivors just do gens anyway so the whole fact that the timer doesn't start until a gen pops is moot. There really is no point to have it that way. Not to mention, it's really stupid sometimes when you down someone and right before you put the trap on a gen pops. That's like RNG on top of RNG and it ends up punishing the Pig."
That doesn't do much to improve Pig's stalling except in cases where the Survivor is ballsy enough to continue doing Gens with an inactive Trap on their head. In every other case, nothing is changed with regards to the Pig's stalling potential. I wouldn't say no to the idea persay, but it does not fix the Pig's problem in my eyes. If anything, all it does it promote more Trap kills, which is fixing the wrong area of the Pig.
"Then, during EGC, if someone has an active RBT it both resets the EGC timer and pauses it, so that you will be forced to remove it before escaping like in the past, but it won't be super OP at end game."
I've been on board with pausing the EGC timer for active traps since the nerf. I am not keen on resetting the timer, but to be honest, that is STILL a better proposition than the nerf that actually happened.
"What makes it unfair for Survivors? Your proposed change makes it so hooking by Jigsaw Boxes is bad because they can get the first box out of the way super easily, and from there, there is a 50% chance that the time wasted is very minimal. That is not a good direction."
Don't hook near boxes then? Like that's pretty common sense. Or do and expect them to jump on it ASAP letting you come back and get another hook. The game shouldn't be balanced around you making mistakes.
"Uh, no, it's still RNG. "
If you artificially influence the outcome then no, it's not RNG. If I rig a deck of cards so that I always get an ace and 4 random other cards, that's not RNG. Your entire argument falls apart and I don't even need to address anything else.