thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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Small Game is plenty for countering totems. You really don't even need it if you know where all the totem spawns are.
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@MassiveToggaf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591885#Comment_591885
Are you subtly making the argument that survivors dont need perks?
Because last time I checked there isnt a single survivor that has all second chance perks, exhaustion perks, and healing perks. Not that theyre necessary. I can think an argument can easily be made that if survivors play optimally they dont need perks.
But still im a little confused as to what your argument is.
He's saying that the grind for survivors isn't a big deal because they are all interchangeable. You max out one character that's all you NEED to compete at the highest level. If you want to do that with multiple survivors, that's just extra. Whereas the grind for killers is a lot more necessary, because each killer is different. You need to dump BP into each of them if you want different experiences as killer.
And I agree with him. I main Kate, she is the only survivor I have p3 all perks because there is honestly no point in doing that with another survivor. My Jake is p2 with most perks because I played him before Kate came out, but the rest are just sitting at level 40 and I will NEVER play them unless it's rank reset and I have a daily. I just play Kate ALL the time. That might be boring for some people, but it's just the optimal thing to do if you want to play with a maxed survivor.
However I can acknowledge that the grind for new players is just crazy. To get all 17 survivors to 40 is like almost 20 million BP. For a survivor player that is a LOT. Like I'm a really good high rank survivor. I can average probably 20k a game. That's still like 1000 games just to unlock all the teachables. Then it's going to be another 10 million to max out a character (p3 all perks), so that's another 500 games. At an average of 10 minutes a game, that's already 250 hours of game time to get to the point where someone like me already is at. And it just grows with each new DLC, exponentially so for new players. All I gotta do is dump like 1.2 million into the new character, then maybe 300k into Kate and I'm done. 1.5 million BP is easy to get in a few days.
Killer grind is worse and better in some ways. Worse because of the aforementioned need to do it on every killer you want to play. Better because if you have BBQ you can walk out of every game with 50k consistently (this is WITHOUT BP offerings even considered).
What I think would help everyone is if they made it so that a perk will unlock at the highest tier it was previously unlocked for a character. So if you get say, WGLF 3 before you prestige the new survivor, the NEXT time it shows up in your blood web it's already at tier 3. No need to get tier 1/2 again. That would cut down on the grind significantly.
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I'm pretty sure it's 32m so as to match the base terror radius.
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Being a slug-based perk, I don't think it's possible to really get much out of it without sabo.
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@thepigBuff "It's a translator, so if you don't understand it, please understand it."
Sorry I know English is not your native language, but I LOL'd at this.
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He honestly complains way too much. And if you disagree with him and make good points, he gets all pissy about it and talks down to you. The fact he thinks Hag is D tier or that STBFL is a top tier perk (it's okay at best) suggests he doesn't understand the game as well as he thinks he does. You can tell he is the type of player to blame the game for things that are mostly his own fault.
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Yea this has been really bugging me for a while. It's janky too, it feels like your camera does reset but then gets pulled down.
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@NiteN_⑨ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591716#Comment_591716
The first example can be countered since you can hear a phasing spirits footsteps to tell were shes going and the second gets punished by DS a perk most high rank survivors run.
1) If I phase walk through you and come from the pallet you are running to then you have nothing to use to avoid a hit because you're just out in the open. If there is collision I'm forced to either come from behind you (which you could still run to the pallet likely) or go around and cut you off which means if I guessed wrong I lost you.
2) I slug you.
My point with these examples was that either way the Spirit is not negatively affected.
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@NiteN_⑨ said:
I think they just need to remove her collision when phasing. The husk can have collision but Its a little unfair that she doesnt have to be aware of were a survivor is sometimes she just needs to bump into them while phasing, this would also make gen grabs with prayer beads happen less often since she has to guess what side to appear on
I disagree with this because I think it would just open a new can of worms. Sometimes the fact that she has collision means she can't do certain things. Like I main Spirit and I can already imagine a world where she has no collision, so I just start running through survivors to get to the pallet first and then come at them from another direction. Or one where a survivor unhooks another and then has no way to protect that survivor other than trying to trick me into chasing them via scratch marks or something. Like not having collision isn't going to actually make it harder for her to find you believe it or not.
Like yea, removing it would hurt her in these specific instances, but then it would also buff her in these other specific instances. I'd rather collision because then at least you can bait her to follow through say a pallet, then drop the pallet on her while she's phase walking. Since you're waiting for it and she has to react to it, chances are you will win the encounter and hit her with the pallet. But if I could just pass through you then I wouldn't get stuck near the pallet and therefore that tactic is lost.
The trick to not getting found via collision is to 1) not be in the predictable path where she is most likely to be phase walking, and 2) to be moving in some capacity (walk/crouch) so that when you bump into each other you feel it. If you just stand still you'd have no idea that she actually bumped into you and therefore have nothing to react to.
TLDR I don't think removing collision would have the result you would want as it just opens up a new set of tactics for Spirits.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591623#Comment_591623
I think Zubat would lose if he played vs. four Zubats. I honestly believe that. Good luck finding such a match.
Maybe we will find a cloning machine at area 51.
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Just do gens. Ruin will slow you down a little bit but not by much, especially if you hit great skill checks.
Also you should watch a game with actual rank 1 survivors. 3 gens will pop first chase like Ruin doesn't even exist. I've had games as killer and survivor were 4 gens were done in 2 minutes with Ruin up the entire time.
And BBQ is easy AF to dodge. It's to the point that I don't even bother to dodge it anymore, I just let the killer see me to bait them to come find me. If they don't, I can just do whatever I want. If they do I just hide and make them waste time searching for me.
As killer I find survivors mostly by using my eyes and ears. BBQ will give me a heading but I'm not relying on it to point me directly to a survivor unless then are sitting at 41m. At this point, it's more for the BP boost than anything.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/590195#Comment_590195
Please tell me what hook-sabo and old face-camping have in common in terms of design principle or mechanical implementation? This just looks like you continuing to gish gallop and derail.
Did you even read anything I wrote? Because I explained it quite clearly.
Face camping to body block a hook made unhooking IMPOSSIBLE.
Permanent sabo made hooking IMPOSSIBLE.
If you think one is okay, you must think the other is okay too or else you are a hyprocite.
Fact is, neither are okay because it's broken when a player can make an action impossible for their opponent. It doesn't matter if said action is the right tactical decision or not. The problem is that the option doesn't even exist.
Also you throw out the term "gish gallop" but I don't think you understand what it means, just like you don't understand what cognitive dissonance means either. You are just using buzzwords to avoid being seen as a hypocrite.
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@Yamaoka but that's the thing. Against good survivors that rarely make mistakes, you won't be getting chainsaws. It's very easy to avoid LF chainsaw at a loop like that. He wouldn't even need to drop the pallet he just has to run through it. If you chainsaw he can hug the loop and avoid it. If you don't chainsaw, well you're not getting that advantage you speak of. It's lose-lose.
And I was a Freddy main for a time. He can be extremely powerful when used correctly with the right build. But even then, he is still the weakest killer compared to what other killers can do. Now that Freddy has been reworked, LF is basically the weakest killer for the same reason. It's not that he is bad, if you are good with him he's still viable. Just that all the other killers are better than him.
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BBQ, MYC, Ruin/PGTW, Stridor.
All of her add-on types are good, but IMO speed and duration add-ons are the best. Speed because you can cover more distance and cut off a survivor more easily (or just run them down). Duration because you can cover even more distance combined with speed, and because it doubles as a recovery add-on. See what duration add-ons do is decrease the rate at which the bar depletes during phase walk. But it will recover at the normal rate. That means that what was a 2s phase walk with a 5s recovery is now a 2s phase walk with a 3s recovery (these aren't the exact numbers, just an example). So you basically get 2 add-ons in 1 when you use duration.
Prayer Bead Bracelet is her strongest add-on, obviously, but I don't recommend using it when learning her. It's literal EZ mode and you won't actually learn how to play her correctly. Better to save them for after you get better with her.
Mother Daughter Ring is the next most powerful, but since it removes scratches you need to hone your tracking skills. If you suck at tracking this add-on will seriously hurt you. But once you get good at tracking, you will stomp survivors with MDR.
Amulet has the most utility. I would save them to combo with PBB or MDR.
Passive phase add-ons are EXTREMELY underrated. They can make you just that much more effective in a chase, especially against good survivors. It gives you the option to just chase like a normal killer and save your power for when you really need it. You get the benefit of being stronger in a chase without needing your power as much.
Other good perks for Spirit: Sloppy, Nurse's, Haunted Grounds (though good survivors generally expect this), Surveillance, Discordance, Devour + TOTH (using only these 2 will make survivors think you have HG instead), Third Seal (you can slug everyone once you get 4 stacks), STBFL, Thrilling Tremors, and M&A.
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Windows > pallets against Spirit.
Run to a window, especially the strong ones as they are more effective against Spirit than other killers. She will be forced to either 1) stop phasing to vault the window and then has to wait for her power, or 2) try to cut you off which gives you a chance to go another direction and escape the chase. If it's a strong window (eg. bottom window on Grim Pantry main structure) then you can actually loop her phase walk. And when you can loop her phase walk it SERIOUSLY hurts her. Like literally it's crippling to a Spirit.
Pallets are extremely unsafe against Spirit, you should either avoid them or drop it early and play it like a window.
LT windows are less safe but can still work. You just have to be very unpredictable with vaulting.
And if you know she is phase walking then you want to walk. Yes she could still hear you cry in pain but if you time it right you can get her to go past you enough that she can't hit you directly out of phase walk. All you need to do is dodge that phase walk attack and then she's just a 110 killer for a short time, which you can loop like normal.
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@Yamaoka said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/590428#Comment_590428
Yeah I totally get looped at every pallet and my power is definitely worthless:
Inb4 "bUt tHiS sUrViVoR wAs WeAk I wOuLd HaVe EsCaPeD uNLiKe EvERy OtHeR sUrViVor iN yOuR pAsT 50 gAmEs"
Well that guy made a serious mistake running away from the pallet. Had he run through the pallet without dropping it and just kept to the loop he probably wouldn't have gone down.
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I thought the bug was just SB on demand (like Dead Hard). You're saying there is an infinite SB bug? I've had the former used against me, but not the latter.
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@Acesthetiic said:
@thesuicidefox Well like I said, the killers within each tier aren’t ranked. GF being B or C tier isn’t really big. He’s okay, but it definitely can take awhile to get a down against a good survivor and even after that you really don’t have great potential to get that snowball effect to get downs fast. I love the stealth he has, but his insta down is sort of like Leatherface. When will you actually be able to use it? Not often. It’s at least slightly better than LF. He’s probably top of C tier for me. If they touch up the break out, he’ll be B.
Well that's the thing. You need to be good an managing the stalk meters. If you stalk a survivor a bunch but then hit them anyway it's a waste. If you chase them until your power comes back, it's actually very effective, especially because they usually aren't even looking at you during a chase. You can get them to waste pallets and even get bloodlust before one shotting them. And again, one shot isn't the only part of his power. You want to use it at the right times. Sometimes it makes more sense to just take a normal chase, or use the stealth to just get close to survivors.
Peaking is also something you need to do if you want one shots. He stalks a lot faster while peaking, he's harder to break from stalk, and he's just harder to even notice in general. And unlike Myers, he can use both his stealth and one shot at the same time.
Break out does need some tweaks though, for both sides. Sometimes a survivor will break stalk through a wall, or I won't see the Killer Instinct blip which is very annoying. But then other times the survivor will be standing there in front of me staring me in the face and nothing happens. So the bugginess can work in your favor. But I would agree he would be better if break out was more consistent for everyone.
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@Fictionalname "and who thinks Ghostface doesnt need buffs"
thesuicidefox has left chat
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Doctor.
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inhales deeply
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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On topic: I would say LF needs attention the most. He's really not that good. I was playing with some friends that were lower rank tonight, we got a rank 12ish LF. He got completely run over, even with Ruin and landing a few chainsaws (mostly on me because I potato'd hard). But it was a 4e, and after the game he messaged my friend and said, I shhh you not, "whoever told me LF was B tier can go ffff themselves". LOL poor guy.
Legion mostly needs a look at his add-ons and fix to his FF vault speed.
Plague needs something that would encourage survivors to cleanse instead of just playing sick the entire game.
Trapper needs a few QOL changes but nothing major to make him better. Basically... starts with 2 traps by default, more traps overall and they need to spawn more near the middle of the map. Also he needs the option to reset a trap that's on the ground even if he has a trap in his hand.
Clown too just needs a few minor changes. An extra bottle and making his gas somehow negatively affect gens would give him all that he needs to be a better killer.
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@Acesthetiic It won't let me quote you >.>
GF is definitely B tier, I say tied with Myers or just below him. His power has a TON of utility. You get stealth, one shot, and tracking all in one. Breaking stalk is very buggy, for both sides, but it's something you can definitely play around with practice. The thing is you need to employ all his tactics throughout the game. If you just stick to one aspect of his power he's not that good. He doesn't have as much variety to his kit as Myers, but he is indeed damn strong when used properly. I just think many people get frustrated with the stalk break thing and don't really push him to his potential. It happens where you have games where they break stalk constantly, and I found the best thing to do in those situations is to avoid stalking too much, instead use just the stealth aspect (with crouch) and try to bait them to break your stalk at bad times (eg. when they are trying to hide from you). Or try to 99 survivors and not chase them, opting for the ones that have less stalk instead. Then when they try to do something ballsy (which they will to break your stalk), you tap stalk and get a free insta-down from it.
GF is also the top of SS tier for memes.
Also I disagree with your A tier. It should be Billy, Spirit, Hag. Then B tier would be Huntress, Myers, GF.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/590027#Comment_590027
Well done, you've now reached the point where you have to start inventing opinions for me rather than responding to what I've actually said.
The issue is not what, the issue is why; you already know this, but your purpose in replying is not debate.
If it's okay that unhooks are made impossible via the killer body blocking the hook prompt, then by that logic it would be okay that hooks are made impossible by survivors via permanent hook sabo. I'm not inventing any opinions for you; either you think permanent hook sabo is okay or you don't, and if you don't then you're a hypocrite. Those are your options here.
@ArecBalrin said:
Also, they did not remove permanent hook-sabo because it was exploitable. They left it in that state for months and didn't respond to killer complaints with anything but dismissal. They took their time putting hook regeneration into a PTB and then delayed putting it in the live-build, using the excuse of survivors behaviour in that PTB(it was the same one where they had infinite first hook phase and self-sabotaged their own buff by griefing).
What made them do anything was survivors whining about being slugged and dying on the floor, but not before they introduced Bill who had the first perk to allow a survivor to pick themselves up without help, just to give killers a few more weeks of aggravation.
Again you don't speak for the devs, and you don't understand how game development works.
Fact is, permanent hook sabo is just unfair to the killer. They tested stuff and tried to come up with the right solution before they implement it, because implementing the WRONG solution means they just have to do the work over again.
It's pretty obvious at this point you are just killer baised and ANYTHING the devs do is only at the behest of survivors. It's just not true, you are living in a fantasy world. You are defending something about the game that is just flat out broken, nothing more nothing less. If you want to defend a hook, then you need to actively do it. You can't just stand there and make it impossible. Whether making the save is the right move or not is irrelevant.
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@newavitar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/590061#Comment_590061
Replacing it as an exhaustion perk is what extends the game. With Adrenaline being an exhaustion perk that doesn't take effect until the end of the game, they are forced to run without an exhaustion perk for the rest of the game. This makes chases shorter, resulting in quicker hooks, more overall game pressure, and easier snowball potential.
But then if the killer has add-ons that inflict exhaustion you can basically get screwed out of your ONLY exhaustion perk. They would basically render Adren completely useless. You're basically just nerfing Adren into oblivion by making that change.
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While I agree Adren needs some sort of "nerf" I don't think this would be a good idea.
I just think that the insta-heal effect needs some sort of prerequisite. I suggested elsewhere that you should need something like 5k BP before you can get it. But you would get the speed boost/exhaustion regardless. This way players need to be active in the game to get the benefit of Adren and since it's BP and not like gens or something, they would need to farm just a little bit before popping the last gen, which means a longer game.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589946#Comment_589946
You don't need to make the save: the killer has given you free-reign on the generators. The counter to any form of hook-camping, even tunnelling, has a 75% win-rate because those are the odds of any single survivor being the first person hooked and camped. In any game a strategy with a 75% win-rate would need nerfing, it's not just winning but dominating. You of course already know all of this, but you're not debating, just derailing.
Survivors tend not to use the counter because of double-standards. The game and all discussion of it is rife with them. When the survivors are demanding the devs do something about tunnelling or camping, what matters is the unfairness towards that one individual who must be allowed to enjoy the match, to be rescued, who must be empowered so that they're not straight back on the hook afterwards even. They're far less concerned with killers as individuals but that's not the double-standard I'm talking about here, though it is a double-standard.
The double-standard is that whilst they talk about the experience of the individual when they want to take something from the killer, they suddenly start invoking their collective interests and the health of the whole game when protecting something they already have. The health of the whole game, when used as a justification, of course once again excludes the killer, which as one side represents at least half of the game.
So you're mad they took away your ability to literally stand there and do nothing for a kill? That's literally all they did. If you really think that's a double standard then you have a very clear bias toward killer.
Here's another way to look at it... sabotage originally was permanent. Basically that means survivors could make it IMPOSSIBLE to get hook. They change it so hooks would respawn because it was exploitable. So if you think it's okay to make an unhook impossible, then it must be okay to make a hook impossible. If not you are a hypocrite.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589917#Comment_589917
It's not hard to understand: it's just a nakedly bad-faith argument.
I could fill you in, but I think you are entirely aware of the 3 years of discussions that happened and you're goal here is not debate but distraction.
There's nothing bad faith about it. It's physically impossible to make the save. With stuff like BT and DS, making the save isn't always the bad play. All the devs did was make it so the save was an option. There's nothing about that that makes it a double standard.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589869#Comment_589869
The counter to face-camping was the exact same counter to hook-camping. This has been discussed for 3 years, you can not possibly have missed it unless you have gone out of your way to do so, in which case you are in no position to be throwing around accusations of bias.
That's not a counter because it's impossible to save the guy. Like the option doesn't even exist. How is this so hard to understand?
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"Getting frustrating now: yes they could. The counter to face-camping was the same as the counter to normal hook-camping. Survivors refused to do it, as usual."
No you couldn't counter it because you couldn't save the guy. SMH
Doing gens is not a counter when it's literally impossible to make a save.
"Also, EGC did not take long: they literally came up with it within a few weeks after the PTB for hatch-closing. They did not want to give killers what we had expressly and notably requested without a sting in the tail."
Do you understand what iterative design is? Of course not. EGC is the end result of a lot of design and testing, part of which was the hatch close PTB.
"You've derailed enough."
I'm not the one sitting here making ridiculous claims that the devs just do whatever survivors want, have some sort of imaginary double standard for killers, or complains about what are the core dynamics of the game.
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"By the same standards, survivors have had body-blocking by the killer in regards hook-interactions labelled and dealt with as a malicious exploit. "
Because survivors could literally not do anything about that. Hostage has nothing to do with this situation. Like you seriously think it's okay for a killer to just stand at a hook and make it impossible to save? Dude that's biased if I've ever seen it.
"yet the streamer Vinc3Vega reported someone for exactly this last month"
Does not make it an actual exploit. SMH again REALLY you use this as an argument?
"they were being told for weeks and kept making excuses to do nothing"
I highly doubt this was the case. It just proves how little you understand about game development. Solutions don't come overnight. Which is why both EGC and DS took so long. But then look at something like MOM. Changes in like 2 months. Tell me again how they say "how high" when survivors ask for stuff. I'll wait.
"And I leave you with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance"
You clearly don't understand what this actually means. If you don't think closing the hatch is a free kill then you are again just killer biased. Not to mention, you got the ability to close hatch it's just part of a bigger mechanic now. One that STILL favors killers.
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@ArecBalrin "This debate has already been done and those on the other side of it from me chose double-standards. Killers have had 'dynamic' use of multiple mechanics working in tandem labelled as 'exploits' which justified intervention from the devs and the threat of bans. The exact same standards do not apply to survivors when they loop or body-block; they get different ones."
Because looping and body blocking are not exploits. If a survivor body blocks the killer, the killer can just hit them. If a killer body blocks a survivor, there is literally nothing they can do. If done in a corner, the survivor is effectively trapped in the game forever unless they DC. The fact that each side has different mechanics is why this is treated differently.
As for looping, you even said yourself the devs labeled infinites as EXPLOITING and then changed it so it doesn't exist. And yes there is a huge difference between an infinite and a finite loop. How you think they are the same is baffling honestly.
It just sounds like you are a pissed off killer main that only sees the changes to killers as negative and ones to survivors as positive. The fact you have this grudge against looping, which is the basis of the game even from the beginning, shows how little you actually understand the game. Like explain to me what you would want survivors to do? Explain to me how you would make it so that you can't waste a killers time by running in a circle. You can't, not unless you outright remove pallets and windows. Oh you would change the collision boxes? All that does is shorten the loops, it doesn't get rid of it.
Also there is nothing "misrepresented" about the game's post release development. Changes have been made on BOTH sides to balance the game. You bring up hatch closing, well the original mechanic wasn't good enough. It was too oppressive, probably because it just meant FREE KILL for killers. And it was, to say anything else is just biased. So the devs went and came up with EGC, which is arguably a more fair solution (though one that still favors killers). DS changes took a while too, and the end result is one that made it way WAY better for killers (which if you still have a problem with DS then I really have nothing else to say to you).
"Free unearned escapes" like really dude? REALLY?? You need to 4k that bad every game? You can close the hatch, so to say survivors still take the game hostage is just a lie. They sort of can when there are more than 1 of them and they just refuse to do gens, but again that's just a flaw in the design. Eventually that will get fixed too I'm sure.
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@ArecBalrin "Looping was an exploit that the devs weren't even aware of"
No it's not an exploit. It's a dynamic. In other words, it's the result of multiple mechanics working in tandem. In this case, pallets/windows and character movement speeds. Collision factors in too. But it is not an exploit.
What the devs did was tweak the mechanics in order to balance the dynamic of looping. Previously, you could loop forever. Then devs made changes so that looping would be finite. Then they made further changes to make pallets and windows fair to both sides. Next we are getting changes to make the stronger loops weaker but provide more of them, resulting in even more balanced gameplay for either side.
You make it sound like survivors said "jump" and the devs said "how high?". That's not at all the case. Players DISCOVERED the dynamic of looping. It was deemed too strong, but unless you want to completely change core mechanics it will always be an inherent part of the game. Therefore the most reasonable solution is to change the mechanics until that dynamic is fixed.
I went to school and studied game design dude. What you think of as "survivors made this happen" is completely false. Survivors merely discovered how the mechanics interact with each other, then the devs made changes to make it better for both sides. If they really REALLY catered to survivors as you claim, they would have left infinites as they are. They would have left pallet vacuums and fast vaults as they are. But they aren't doing that.
You also don't speak for the devs. Whatever imaginary scenario you came up with in your head of what they do behind the scenes or how they make decisions is just plain wrong. But whatever, believe in some fantasy if you really want to.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589336#Comment_589336
This is patently not true.
Survivors used infinite-loops and when the devs acknowledged they were game-breaking and needed removing, survivors were then intensively lobbying for pallets to be made fool-proof. The changes made to pallets enabled looping as we now know it; prior to those changes the risk that a killer would lunge through a falling pallet was too-high for them to be reliable for anything other than creating temporary distance so a survivor could escape a chase. This did not exist because it was undiscovered; it exists because there was a mechanical change made to pallets due to feedback from survivors who has been taking advantage of a bug that gave them full Boldness points and realised mis-using them to grief the killer was more fun than using them to win chases.
It's the same story with almost every feature that defines this game as it is now.
That doesn't negate the fact it was discovered that you can waste a killer's time by basically running in a circle. Infinites are just the precursor to the current loops. All the devs did was removed the ability to do it forever, and tweaked it over time to make it more balanced. It was inherent to the game's design, just very very unbalanced at first.
The devs could have completely done away with looping and tried to create some new dynamic, but that would require new mechanics which means changing the core design of the game. Rather than do that, they just changed what was there until we get to where we are today. And it's still being worked on, as we are in the process of getting new map layouts where there are weaker but more plentiful loops.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589417#Comment_589417
I already know pallets aren’t very safe against her. So my counterplay options are to hope the invisible lady doesn’t hear me?
I mean she might be able to hear you but if you are on the other side of a window there isn't much she can do unless it's a bad window. All you need to do is get her to waste her power, then she is a 110 killer than you can loop normally for a short time.
You can also use environment sounds to your advantage. Running gens, fire pits, etc. can make it harder to track you by sound.
But IMHO windows are the absolute best option against her. She is especially weak against the super strong windows like the one downstairs main building of Grim Pantry or the window on Ironworks or Coal Tower. If you vault those and she failed to predict it then she is forced to vault the window, and she is a 110 killer with no way to really catch up before you get back around to the window. Where Hag can set a trap to break the loop or Huntress can throw a hatchet from a distance, Spirit doesn't have those options. She ends her power, vaults the window, and by the time her power is back up you are already back to the window. Granted those windows are good against nearly every killer, it's just even better against Spirit.
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@martin27 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589411#Comment_589411
The point i'm making is i do best against the killers i've put the time into to play as. I've learnt the counters from having them used on me, i've also learnt to counter some of the counters. I don't think the nurse is the be all end all killer of the game and survivors need to learn not nerf.
I agree. I main Spirit, so I know how to play against her. I also use Iron Will and Spine Chill all the time, partially to hard counter Spirit/Nurse but also because they are good perks regardless of the killer. I can't stand how some people say "perks are not counter play" when these 2 perks completely change how well you do against particular killers. It's like night and day.
Do I win against every Spirit I play? No. But I am usually the most difficult survivor to catch of my friends because I play her and I'm equipped to counter her. Usually I die because I make a dumb mistake or the killer makes a good move, not because the Spirit is overpowered or anything.
Also just FYI, the ones saying Nurse is OP are not all survivor mains. Quite a few of them are killer mains here. I wouldn't go assuming stuff like that it just hurts the discussion.
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You can, it's just going to be more difficult. You need to have really good prediction skills and a good understanding of what Spirit can do.
I main Spirit and I can tell you the best way to run from one is to use windows. Windows are more effective than pallets because if you vault a window and she didn't predict that to go around to the other side she has to stop phase walking to vault the window, or at the very least she will use up her power before going around to the other side.
Pallets are less safe because she doesn't need to come out of phase walk to go through a pallet. However, if the pallet is dropped, then it would act like a window and you can use it as such until she breaks it. This is why you still need to break certain pallets as Spirit because if you don't, it's basically another window a survivor can use to evade you.
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@martin27 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589336#Comment_589336
Could that theory not be apply to the nurse? The counter play for the nurse has always existed but since only a handful of players play the nurse and have the best understanding of her the majority of community haven't figure that out yet. Wasn't botany considered witchcraft by people who didn't understand it.
Kind of. There is definitely probably still stuff to discover in the game. I mean, people are still discovering new tricks in games like OG Doom and stuff. But the catch is that the game is still evolving from a design standpoint. We get new killers, new perks, new maps, updates/changes to the game, etc. So when it comes to undiscovered or uncommon dynamics, it will take longer for them to come to fruition. If the game was just left as is for a long period of time (I'm talking like years, not weeks or months) then the emergence of new stuff will be more frequent.
Like every time there is an update to the core mechanics of the game (ie. window vaults) then things need to kind of reset and get back to where they were previously before new things can really be pushed out to the general community.
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@martin27 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589299#Comment_589299
You make a good point, i might not agree with all of it, i feel like they early days were more about stealth then survivors learned how useful looping is and steered the game in towards that direction.
But see, that's just players figuring out the dynamic. When the game first came out, these dynamics didn't really exist because players didn't understand the game. Now we do, and as such those dynamics evolved naturally from just understanding the game better. No one steered the game to do anything, you have to think of it as looping existed in the game since the beginning but it wasn't discovered until player skill got to a certain point.
Like, electricity has existed since the beginning of the universe, just humans didn't discover it until the 19th/20th century and now we have computers and stuff because we understand how electricity actually works and can take advantage of it for our benefit. In theory we could have been using it thousands of years ago, but we didn't have the necessary understanding to do so. Not the best example, but it adds to my point.
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@martin27 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/589273#Comment_589273
You say it's an evolution of the game but that evolution could of been more stealth focused if the survivors choose that route of gameplay. EGC is an evolution of survivors decided they just going to cause hatch stand offs instead of doing gens.
No it couldn't, because the game is ultimately about time efficiency. Looping is like a clock, you can do X amount of loops before the killer catches up (assuming you don't mind game/juke for extra time). The X depends on the type of loop, and the type of loop determines how much times is spent to complete the loop.
Stealth, on the other hand, is not as clear cut. You can spend ages searching an area for someone, or seconds. There is no consistency to it. There is no way to say "it will take the killer this amount of time to find a survivor" because there are too many factors to consider. Yes, it is another dynamic of the game but it's not one that can be planned for. Devs can design loops in a very mathematical way to synergize with this dynamic. They can't exactly do this for stealth, at least not without making it arbitrarily more easy/difficult in the process. So it makes more sense to opt for a more neutral approach to stealth, where it's considered but not explicitly the basis for the design.
As for EGC, that's an evolution of a flaw in design, specifically the fact that the last survivor can just hide indefinitely and draw out the game, or the fact that if both players stand on the hatch neither can really act without losing the encounter, so they are just stuck in a stalemate indefinitely. Survivors didn't do these things because they wanted to, they did them because those were the only options. So the design was changed so that these situations don't exist anymore.
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Personally, I would like if we could still play Legacy Freddy in KYF. Just for memories.
I agree old Freddy is very good if you play him right, but I disagree that he's NOT the weakest killer in the game. Indeed he is, it's just you can overcome this problem with skill and a proper build. And being the weakest doesn't mean he is weak, it just means in comparison to everyone else he has to work the hardest to get the same result.
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@Gardenia @Sluzzy You are both wrong. Looping is a dynamic that emerged from the game's mechanics. It's not something anyone forced, it's a natural evolution of the game's design. Therefore, as developers, it makes sense to take this into consideration when designing new killers, perks, maps, etc.
IDK if you noticed, but new jungle gym tiles were added to Red Forrest maps. These tiles allow for looping, it's just in a different pattern than the old loops. Where the old loops were basic circles or figure 8's, the new loops are more complex (I know one looks kind of like a butterfly if you look at the loop from above).
This is the devs having a better understanding of the looping dynamic and then trying to create new gameplay spaces that fit that dynamic.
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@GrootDude said:
@thesuicidefox they exist on PS4 too, I was one of them. Took a break and lost my skill.
You mean like Gohan?
Just go train with Piccolo again.
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I agree. Gens need a max limit to how fast they can be finished. Even as a survivor main, it's just dumb how fast a gen will go when you have 3 people working on it. Yea sometimes it's necessary, but at the same time that's a very rare thing.
Another option is to add more stuff to the game that is as effective as Ruin so killers have other options. Of course the problem there is stacking, so it's a tricky situation.
It's not an easy problem to fix, but it is something that needs to be addressed.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/588628#Comment_588628
No, they don't. Mid-rankers in Asia are potatoes too. I play in that region. If I don't play for a while after rank reset, going against green rank and purple rank survivors is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Back to the topic, though... It's a bit infuriating that so many people comment on these threads about Nurse when they have no idea what they are talking about. Like, sorry, but this conversation about Nurse balance is only for players of high rank who actually know what a nurse who has learned the character can do. Not for console players. Not for people in green ranks, not for people who have never gone past purple ranks. Yes, that probably leaves out a lot of the player population, but it is what it is.
A nurse at a certain skill level can not lose if the nurse plays optimally, even against survivors of equal skill or better skill. I've seen many people say "killer is the power role, of course a good killer should win!" When one side (nurse) and dominates to the point that the other side (survivors) are afforded no chance to survive, that is a balance problem.
While I do tend to agree that good survivors have the ability to end games too quickly at high ranks, and that something should be done about that, this is about Nurse. She needs to be tuned down. If you disagree, I seriously question if you have ever played a game against a high rank nurse.
If nurse is eventually (and deservedly) tuned down, I do hope the play style stays as similar to possible to how she plays now. Some of the most fun games I've played have been against Nurses who aren't good enough to be completely dominant with her, but still pose a huge threat.
Nurse is still the best killer on console and very difficult to play against. It's just, she is a lot harder to play well so most Nurse players effectively suck with her. But there are a handful of really really good Nurse players on console (I'm talking Xbox, can't exactly speak for PS4) that will crush all but the best survivor groups. I know 3 of them personally (though one uses omega blink every game, and it's honestly VERY annoying to play against that because it is stupid overpowered [and if you read this dude, no disrespect but you get the business from the whole Xbox group so you know what's up LOL]).
Point is, Nurse on console is still Nurse. Some tricks may not work as well, and she may be a smidge less powerful than on PC, but a good Nurse is still a good Nurse. In fact one of my close friends plays Nurse on both PC and console and he is about equal on both because it's not about the platform it's about your experience with the killer.
Therefore, console players DO have a say in this. And just FYI, there are console players that refuse to play against these good Nurse players citing she is broken OP, so this concept is not at all foreign to us (and as I said omega blink is definitely OP). You're just not going to see a bajillion Nurse's at that level because you really REALLY need to cut your teeth to get good with her like that.
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@GrootDude said:
@thesuicidefox you can’t really label some as good or bad based on what perks they run.
Yea you can. A good survivor doesn't need Deja Vu to find gens. They don't need Small Game to find totems. Good survivors know where everything is and know what to do against everything. The perks they use will be ones with actual tangible results, such as DS or BT. Thus, a good survivor wouldn't use Self Care because they would be able to either play most of the game injured or they know how to track other survivors to get healed. They wouldn't waste a perk slot on something they can get done by other means.
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@Slayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/587766#Comment_587766
I watched Zubat play and i can say that he really understands the game. I play the same way. He dont chase one survivor while others doing gens no thats definition of a bad play from killers perspective instead he s trying to keep every survivor busy and that play is effective rather than down one survivor hook him repeat get genrushed then complain about how game is unbalanced for killers.
He doesnt win the game? Laughable. He can get points when there are less survivors left he keeps the game under control he can do that he just doesnt do that .
No he doesn't win. Not by slugging everyone in 2 minutes. He avoids losing. There is a difference. And I have no doubt he could let the game go on longer to pip if he wanted, but as you say he doesn't do that. He just goes for the throat and makes sure the survivors don't even get a chance to do anything. Not saying there is anything wrong with this, just that it's not really how you win the game. Back during victory cube, yea this would be the top strat, but not in 2019.
I tend to play the same, where I do my best to keep survivors occupied as much as possible. But I also just take hooks sometimes knowing that I could have created a ton more pressure but I want BP and pips, so I give survivors opportunities. I personally feel like the game is just way too easy as killer when you play like he does. And people get mad when I say "killer is ez" because they don't do this either. If you play like Zubat, killer is indeed very easy 99.999999% of the time. Only a full 4 man rank 1 SWF with all meta perks and stacked items like instaheals and keys can really compete against that. But if you play like I do, the game is way more challenging.
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@LordGlint said:
Your using up 2 perk slots for something you could just bring a medkit for.
Pffftttt. Screw that. Iron Will + Adren + toolbox is way stronger.
Self Care is a waste of a slot. The only reason I would use it is if I'm playing solo and don't want to bring an item every game, and even then I still will avoid using it unless I really have to.
Bond is better, flat out. Let's you find someone to heal (which they do faster than SC + BK), and it has plenty of other uses outside of that.
Point is, good survivors don't use Self Care.
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@purplerain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/587517#Comment_587517
he is good but he need little cooldown buff on power . i am forced every game take green pen just so i dont need wait ages to use my power again
I would agree to this. Since rank reset, I've been finding that the power cooldown add-ons are very good for him because it let's you get marks on those survivors that constantly break your stalk. What I do is I stalk them as much as I can, I try to get to at least 75%, then they usually break it (I will go for the mark if they let me), then I chase them but refuse to hit them until my power returns. Make them drop some pallets or get bloodlust on them, then my power is full again and I finish the stalk and now have an easy one shot. It's actually better than hitting them twice a lot of the time, you just need patience.
I would also say they need to fix the break mechanic. I swear sometimes a survivor will break my stalk through a wall, and other times I don't even see the Killer Instinct blip. And then other times I just KNOW the survivor is cursing at me because they can't break my stalk while standing right in front of me. It's very buggy and hurts both sides. I'd be fine with it being more consistent for survivors if it was also easier to stop by crouching or jumping behind something to block LOS.
Oh and the Killer Instinct add-ons really need to do something else. Not sure exactly what, but I personally find them useless.