jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864830#Comment_3864830
When SWFs stack this perk, tunneling and not tunneling leads to the same outcome.
Therefore, I might as well tunnel, because tunneling doesn't punish me more than not tunneling. This perk fails to actually discourage tunneling. It just results in a survivor getting hooked 5 or 6 times in the same game, which causes the survivors to get way more frustrated than if they were tunneled out at 3 hooks.
Good?
That sounds fine to me. Tunnelling and not tunnelling lead to the same outcome, which is that survivors aren't taken out of the game early. That sounds like it's working.
If individual players get annoyed, that's on them, it's not a flaw with the perk.
As an aside, you "might as well" just focus on spreading your pressure instead, since you can't get the benefit of tunnelling. If you can't take the shortcut, honing your fundamentals is a good idea. There's no real incentive to keep tunnelling, it's just what you personally prefer doing.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864823#Comment_3864823
Therefore, it is harmful to killers, when a perk can require 5 or 6 hooks before a survivor is eliminated from the game, because the killer would have been better off if they could have eliminated a survivor in 3 or 4 hooks.
…But that's just the perk working, not the perk being overpowered or specifically harming killers who don't tunnel.
It's supposed to stop you from tunnelling, it's an anti-tunnel perk. If it doesn't do that, what's it supposed to do?
You're not being harmed when an unbalanced tactic is prevented, you're just being reset to neutral. You can avoid this supposed detriment by just not tunnelling to begin with and you'll be just fine.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864821#Comment_3864821
Honest question. Do you believe that tunneling a survivor out of the game in 3 hooks, is beneficial for killers?
Obviously, yes, but that isn't what we're discussing here.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864657#Comment_3864657
- I hook survivor A
- Survivor B uses the perk on survivor A
- I hook survivor B
- Survivor C uses the perk on survivor B
- I hook survivor C
- Survivor D uses the perk on survivor C
In the above scenario, I haven't tunneled at all, and the survivors still used the perk 3 times to spread the hook states. This means the perk doesn't actually discourage tunneling, because tunneling and not tunneling leads to the same result.
Isn't this just like, fine, though? Isn't this still just progressing your objective the same way as if you'd been spreading hooks from the start and this perk wasn't in play? You still have three hook states, you've still used up resources, you've still dragged people off generators to come save…
I don't see how this is a bad outcome for killers at all, that's the part I'm confused about. Can't speak to anyone else responding to you, but that's where I'm struggling to understand your argument.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864606#Comment_3864606
trapper's problem is his inability to play offence. he's great killer for defence but has no offence. i think setting traps and webs should be by product of playing trapper but NOT main gameplay of trapper. the fact that it is his main gameplay is why i think he falls short as a killer. you need to be have some sort of offence to take initialize as a killer to be a good killer. playing 100% re-actively is very exploitable and rely on 3 gen and some form of hook camping to be effective.
i do not think these changes move needle or do anything meaningful to improve trapper. BVHR changes in 2vs8 are much closer to fixing trapper.
I would change his trap setting mechanic to work like freddy current snares, you hold a trap then throw it down. the trap arms itself after few seconds. When a trap is set, you gain 15% haste for 10 seconds. Trapper would be like Knight, place traps at pallets, survivor leaves loop until they're in the corner of the map →gets a hit. you can carry 3 trap limit so if you manage to make trapper run out of traps to place, you can counter his chase through his ammo system. that would fix his 1vs1 a little bit.
That'd very fundamentally alter his identity and power, which as I said, is something I want to avoid doing.
Also, making Trapper into a "loop zone until they're at a corner" killer would be bad on its face, that's not fun or engaging for either side to deal with.
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@Langweilig said:
I like everything, only the map nerf feels a bit unnecessary.
I would additionally suggest, that the traps spawn armed, so you can catch someone off guard at the start.
I don't consider it to be a particularly huge nerf to maps, how often do you bring a map specifically to track Trapper's bear traps?
Besides, BHVR have been moving away from things directly countering one specific power over the years, so I imagine it'll change eventually.
As to traps spawning armed - it's a cool idea but I think it might be a little much for the basekit. Could be an awesome addon, though- if the Iridescent Stone ended up being problematic with the other changes, it'd be a great replacement effect for that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864579#Comment_3864579
Increasing the number of hooks it takes for the killer to eliminate one of the survivors, is bad for the killer.
It doesn't actually do that, though. It's the exact same number of hooks, they're just on different survivors.
In situations where you aren't trying to eliminate one survivor in particular early, the time isn't actually extended. You just have a different person on death hook than you would've without the perk.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864569#Comment_3864569
“The killer could just make their first 4 hooks on 4 different survivors” is unacceptable counter play. It’s an unacceptable expectation.
Counter play to what?
I've seen you talk about this a few times in different threads and to my recollection you've never actually outlined what's supposed to be bad for the killer about this situation. What exactly is harming killers here?
I'm genuinely curious, I have no idea what you're referring to here.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The perk is overtuned in coordinated SWFs, where more than one survivor is equipping the perk.
Killers at the MMR soft cap, should be seeing a decent amount of games where the survivors are stacking and daisy chaining the perk.
Killers at low or average MMR, or solo q survivors, probably won’t see a lot of games with the perk being stacked.
You've mentioned people "daisy chaining" the perk twice now, but does that actually like… do anything?
If you're not trying to tunnel whoever it was used on, surely that just kinda shuffles around the hook states without it changing anything about how close you are to winning or how much time you're investing, right?
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To the wider point, I think Shoulder The Burden is an interesting example for demonstrating the difference between saying a perk is going to be very strong, and saying a perk is going to shake up the meta.
StB's effect is, unambiguously, exceptionally strong anti-tunnel. It even does a little in some scenarios where the killer isn't tunnelling, though considerably less. It being very strong doesn't mean people are actually going to run it, though- the need for a little coordination and the lengthy Exposed make it unpopular even though it is very good.
That being said, since it is specifically an anti-tunnel perk, I would like to see it be a little easier to use. Changing the Exposed to an aura read would be a good way of still taking aggro from a tunnelling killer but giving lesser-skilled and solo queue players a significantly easier time actually lasting with that aggro on them.
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Some of the perks you listed are very strong, I don't think they belong on a list like this.
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It's definitely a good idea and definitely should be considered heavily, but there is a snag- chest spawns and killer object spawns are the same locations, so extra chests in a trial can mess up the placement of things like Sadako's TVs.
I think the devs should work on separating those two things so that they can add more chests to the trial. In the meantime, though, they could add two extra chests that have static locations- inside shack and a second in the basement, maybe?
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I'm not against it in theory, but as the person above outlined- people would hate that.
A little while back we got an actual health midchapter, where the only balance/content changes were a handful of addon tweaks and the bulk of it were backend fixes- Nurse got a ground-up recode to fix a bunch of bugs, Dead Hard validation was added, iirc Doctor got something for optimisation? It's been a while. Stuff like that, though.
People hated it. Even content creators were talking about how the update was "boring" and "didn't have anything in it".
The response to a genuine health chapter would be reeaalllyyy bad, I think.
Something I think might be more feasible is to slow down content production by only having three chapters a year, and fill the extra time with one or two extra midchapters that can each have both more bugfixes/health changes and more content/balance changes. That'd go over better, I think.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863259#Comment_3863259
med-kits cannot be buffed weaker killers are too time inefficient at the chase vs healthy survivors. in fact tru3, even had opinion that survivor healing should be nerfed further by making them unable to heal after x amount of times.
while i do not agree with his view point, i do agree that balance of low tier being bad vs shift-w play and gap-closing is point of contention. it's one of main reasons why perks like self-care, circle of healing and just about all form of self-healing have been nerfed, nerfed, nerfed over and over. arguably med-kit are still over-performing but i think the way dev are attacking the problem is not correct. instead of nerfing self-healing to the ground and healing as hard as possible, there should be solutions to buff lower tier killers to be more time efficient in the chase. healing shouldn't be like an instant win button but it is vs good half of the cast. med-kits buffing would not help in any form.
I don't see the connection here, personally.
I'd sorta see the justification if I were suggesting buffing self heal speed in these medkit changes, but for self healing it's just an extra heal on the medkit. Survivors already have access to this, and they have access to better than this.
I also don't really buy that Shift-W is this gigantic of a problem overall. In the video, the killer's playing on the worst map for not holding a 3-gen that there is, it's a map where you do actually have to stick around that area if you don't want to seriously harm your chances of winning. Survivors being able to make noticeable distance on any other map hardly means weaker killers are languishing, it ultimately doesn't matter that much unless they're running to super strong areas.
I don't think survivors making distance is going to get worse if green medkits give an extra heal at base, basically.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863046#Comment_3863046
only if you remove self-healing action from both med-kits. bvhr is far from making any of c-d killers better so med-kit can stay where they are until bvhr base-kit lethality of weaker killers. the item is nearly free these days and it's among most popular item in the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAu7WyJO62U
tru3's video is perfect example of why we cannot buff med-kits until we address shift-w problem for weaker killers. skip to last 2 minute of the video for his explanation.
Took a look at the video, even watched the whole thing so I wasn't missing context. I'm not seeing what this has to do with these proposed medkit buffs, I gotta say.
Could you elaborate?
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@Langweilig said:
I personally want them to revert the healing nerfs they did, but since this will probably not happen anytime soon, I’m on board with your suggestion.
Ranger medkit should still allow self healing and generally speaking 30-50% healing speed increase to altruistic healing is extremely bad, it would need to be 100% or more to be worthwhile, because otherwise it barely makes any difference.
Healing nerfs? What are you referring to there?
As for the healing speed increase, 50% is the same as Botany Knowledge, which is a really really solid altruistic healing perk. I'm not against the Ranger Medkit getting a higher number, but I also don't think it's worthless with the number it currently has.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/435682/potential-medkit-tiers-rework-suggestion
It's just yet another Medkit Nerf.
If you want to make medkits viable in different scenatios, just buff self heal in one of them and altruistic heal in other one, why disable self-heal and slow down altruistic heal in another? Is this really necessary? 🤨
To make the tiers more different from one another.
Just buffing them in that way ends up with the same outcome, the only difference between tiers is a slight increase in one number. If we want them to be more interesting, they need to be more specialised than that.
Also, I'd argue neither of these are nerfs overall. More charges is flat out just more appealing than the increased altruistic heal for the green, and the purple is absolutely buffed overall in its new niche.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
I think medkits are in a good spot, they can still be strong and quite useful if you know how and when to use them. They don't need buffed at all, just don't touch them.
I'd rather see things like keys or maps given more, or even making flashlights take more skill to use. It feels unrewarding when Flashlight blinds are so easy for me to get, and keys are useless unless you want to go for hatch or run a wallhacks key. Maps are nice but only the Rainbow Map has any real use to it, and skilled players often do not need them.
Toolboxes overall are fine, but I think we need three major tweaks:
- Remove brown toolboxes and pair down the purples and greens. Nobody uses the purple toolboxes for anything but sabo speed, and nobody uses the other green one at all.
- Reduce Commodious Box and event toolbox charges, have the same toolbox charges for everything like with medkits: 16 charges. They are too easily stacked with perks and no other toolbox even comes close to how strong this one can be.
- Take a look at addons for toolboxes, do we really need this many sabo items? And what if all toolboxes were set at 20% speed max, and the addons made it so you could add 5% more speed, so many more charges, OR turn it into a sabo king box? That allows more flexibility as a tradeoff for reduced gen speed plus you can STILL stack with perks so it's not unreasonably slow to repair, and it may allow Killers some more breathing room so they don't feel the need to take so many gen perks.
As I said, medkits are balanced, but the tiers are functionally all the same.
The goal isn't to buff medkits for the sake of making them stronger, it's to make the tiers more different to one another so they're not just bloodweb clutter with varying prices.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I agree with the idea that there needs to be more difference between the different medkit rarities.
However this seems like a bit too much. While it's true that Self Care wouldn't boost the efficiency of the green medkits anymore, and Botany wouldn't either, you can still make Botany work well with this rework as long as you plan ahead a bit.
To use this reworked green medkit with Botany (which essentially reduces the self heal time back to 16 seconds), all you would need is any addon or combination of addons that gets you at least 12 extra charges (the goal here is to get from 48 to at least 60) as that's enough for 2 self heals even with the efficiency debuffs (a medkit self heal with Botany requires 30 medkit charges). Streetwise alone would also get the job done without any addons (this offsets Botany's efficiency debuff), then you could just use heal speed addons instead or whatever else you wanted. Granted, this still isn't as strong as the 10.7 second self heals green medkits used to give, but it's not that much worse either.
Alternatively, you can drop Botany and use charge addons to get 3 self heals instead of just 2, which is a lot.
With the current medkits you can get 2 self heals if you run Gel Dressings + any of the other charge addons, but it's not possible to make that work with Botany unless you ALSO run Streetwise on top of that (or another perk to recharge items) - at that point you're justified having such a strong medkit with using 2 perks and 2 addons. You CAN use Desperate Measures instead, but in most cases that heal speed is going to be lower, so it isn't as good overall.
As a side note - I agree with increasing the altruistic heal speed on the yellow medkits, I'd go 50% for that. I would also probably give a tiny nerf to brown medkits to set them a bit further apart and then buff green and purple medkits.
An idea I had for the green medkit a while back was to keep it the same for self healing, but go in line with the "Emergency Medkit" name and give it 100% altruistic healing speed at the cost of using all 24 charges (ie. the same efficiency debuff as self healing). You essentially get a We'll Make It speed heal any time during the game as an emergency when you need it, but only once.
Ultimately, my opinion here is that the investment still justifies the outcome even if you get an extra heal this way around. You still have to invest a lot just to bring yourself back to the old standard of an addonless, perkless, not Emergency Medkit speed medkit, and therefore have no real way to improve it beyond that point.
It might end up being too much with testing, I don't know, but my gut says that the level of investment we're talking about here - both addons and at least one perk - just to get two speedy self heals when you could also just invest perks to get comparable speeds is probably fine.
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Those things all have different downsides, mostly.
…Well, not the M1, obviously, it does just get to be 115%. But, when we're talking about the M2 and the teleport, it's important to note a few things that are used to balance those things that makes the whole kit a little less perfect than you're implying.
For the teleport, it's important to note that Unknown doesn't get that much control over where its teleport points are. There's some stuff you can do to try and force a favourable Hallucination spawn by holding the power, but that's imprecise and can waste a lot of time. The teleport is fast and snappy, at the cost of not being precise or easily controllable.
For the M2, others have pointed out that it can't get direct hits, not that it doesn't need to get a direct hit. It's a two-step damage state that requires bouncing the projectile off something with collision to actually affect the survivor, with a hard time limit to actually follow up with the damage state after setting it up because survivors don't need to do anything other than look at you to clear the status effect the power puts on them.
Unknown is a good killer, I don't want to imply that it's languishing in the bottom tiers or anything, but the balance concerns you're raising are ones the killer's design accounts for. It's just balanced differently than the other ranged killers, not less than the other ranged killers.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861988#Comment_3861988
yeah that is not stacking the perk. that is using the perk as intended. the killer get punished for having long chases.
Stacking its effects with other effects isn't mutually exclusive with using it as intended, I'm not sure what you're getting at there. It's both, the perk is being used as intended and its effects are stacking with other perks' effects.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
60 cooldown is too high to get any perk value and 5% is low, it should be raised to original 7% value or was it 8%.
remove cooldown
increase % to 7%.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861943#Comment_3861943
there is only ever one person in chase. double instances of the perk are not good because -1 person on a gen is bad.
The three that are on gens would be able to stack it, though.
Nothing stopping the people doing gens from having, say, Deja Vu on top of benefiting from Quick Gambit. It's not that unlikely in solo queue, even, Deja Vu is fairly popular.
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I'd be down for that. It's a boost to the killer's decisionmaking ability, which I think is appropriate.
It'd be a shame to have this new functionality and not use it, too.
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It's good, but not incredible.
The gen speed bonus isn't high but if you can last in chase for a while it's just free extra time on every generator being done, and far more importantly, it allows you to avoid running the killer towards generators that are being repaired with far, far more of an advance warning than something like Bond gives you.
Just the aura bonus alone would honestly make it pretty alright, so the extra speed on top of that definitely cements it as "pretty good" imo.
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Ideally I'd want to see a whole chunk of the roadmap dedicated to overhauling problem items, chests, and the Luck mechanic.
Rework to the toolbox repair speed, big updates for Maps and Keys to make them more approachable without needing specific addons every match just to make them function, more chests with better spawn logic so it doesn't mess up killer object spawn points, maybe some adjustments to Medkit tiers so they're more interesting if there's time. Luck tying into all this would be a no-brainer to make that more of a real mechanic in the game.
On top of that, continuing to buff undertuned perks sprinkled in with the other big landmark changes would be very nice, of course. They've been doing a good job of that lately, I'd like to see it continued.
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@DancewithmeKate said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860869#Comment_3860869
Tbh, if all teammates brings their own aura perk ( lets say all of them used Alert ) , it's still so much better than this perk. It's 4 perk slots versus one. It's just shows how badly designed this perk.
Most of side objective perks are just trap for survivors to waste their time for giving extra time to killers. BHVR either need to make rewards better for side objectives or they need to stop push perks like Treacherous Crows
Sure, but Treacherous Crows is one perk slot versus four, as you point out.
If Treacherous Crows gave comparable overall aura-reading uptime to four Alerts, it'd be more than worth that one perk slot. The problem is that it's not consistent enough for its setup requirements, not that the basic design is worthless.
Alert's also one of the better perks survivors have access to so to be fair it might be better overall but y'know, still.
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While I agree the issue of the survivor being the one to startle the crow more frequently is a problem (and not being able to stack the Invocations is baffling, as well), I find rundowns of this perk often miss out that the whole team gets that two second aura reveal.
If the activation condition were tweaked a little to make it more consistent - maybe by making it the survivor startling the crow instead of the killer? - the effect would be pretty damn good. If you could get it consistently, team-wide wallhacks for a single perk slot is nothing to sneeze at.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860683#Comment_3860683
Nerfing medkits and one of the most popular healing perks means that they did in fact nerf healing then.
This is just wording it abstractly for no real reason.
There are a lot of people who think that the healing nerf from 6.7.0's PTB - the one where healing went from 16 to 24 seconds - actually happened, which is why I bring it up.
I definitely recognise OP might mean medkits specifically, I'm just making sure that's the conversation being had. I even have some suggestions if that's their complaint.
I guess I could've phrased it as a question, that might've been more appropriate. I only woke up a little while ago, haha.
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Seconding the above on bringing a map being the better call versus Small Game.
I'd also recommend doing a more full build if you want to be shouldering the whole burden of cleansing hexes. My usual go-to when I want to cleanse a lot of totems is Overzealous and Inner Strength, because the time investment you put into cleansing totems is refunded partially both in faster gen speeds and a faster self-heal when you need it.
Pairing those two with Counterforce can be a very "all your eggs in one basket" build but it works, and is quite effective.
The other thing to mention is to not go and cleanse totems until the killer has established that they're a threat. Just seeing a glowing bone shouldn't drag you off generators or away from altruistic actions inherently, you should wait to see the "Cursed" pop up so you know what perk is making that bone glow - and when you've seen that, you'll already be able to go hunt down the totem again because it'll be on your map.
TL;DR Maps are better than Small Game, Overzealous and Inner Strength help make cleansing totems more worth your while to begin with, and you should still be prioritising gens where possible like always.
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They never actually nerfed healing, for the record.
Healing still takes 16 charges at 1 charge per second, that hasn't changed. They only nerfed medkits and Circle of Healing.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860037#Comment_3860037
Rough timeline
(6.1.0) - Prestige rework, Teachables rework, Bp incentives, -bbq and wglf bonus bp
(6.1.0) - Changes from ptb - prestige cost 50k → 20k, max points per category 8k → 10k, bloodpoint cap 1m → 2m
(6.2.0) - Bloodweb cost decrease
Oh, was the bloodweb cost decrease later? My bad, I must've conflated those two patches in my head.
Good catch!
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I think it's a mistake to assume that the role incentives were intended as a replacement for the BP bonuses on BBQ and WGLF.
I think the role incentives were designed primarily to help out the matchmaking and queue time, and they're also one of the multiple things that helped lessen the bloodpoint grind going forward as a nice bonus on top of that.
In just the patch that introduced the role incentives, we also saw everything in the bloodweb get cheaper, prestiging no longer resetting your inventory, the overall bloodpoint cap increased, the in-match bloodpoint category caps increased, and the teachable perk system being overhauled to be significantly cheaper/less time consuming overall.
A later patch (I forget which) would also see us getting bloodpoints added to the free track of the Rift, further increasing the amount of bloodpoints a player is expected to have access to overall.
Overall, I would definitely argue a player's ability to get and spend bloodpoints is significantly better overall even if we compare specifically to a player running BBQ or WGLF before. That's not to say nothing can be improved, but the role incentives aren't the only thing that were meant to replace BP bonuses on perks.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859988#Comment_3859988
The less time spent on wiping your weapon and breaking pallets was absolutely inconsequential, as even with those, survivors can still get to the next loop. I mean, if they just hold W like bots and ignore any loop for the rest of the game, maybe these buffs do something. These things save you half a second at best.
The immediate regression is kinda nice, until you realize that it only gives you half of the regression that a survivor gets when missing a skillcheck. It still something, but considering that a survivor's time is less valuable than yours, considering there is 4 of them, gen kicking is essentially a waste of time in most scenarios.
Dead Hard is not weaker by any means. It is harder to use, but is far stronger if you menage to get usage out of it. Old Dead Hard used to either reset a loop or help you get to a pallet, which is now the role of Dramaturgy. New Dead Hard gives you a speed boost if you parry the killer, which is arguably stronger.
Finally, even if self healing was nerfed, overall healing suffered very little changes. Mangled nerf was a big one, making the status effect basically useless on most killers. Also, being injured imposes no penalty to repairing gen speed, so if healing was really slow, seeing survivors go for gens injured would be much more common. But survivors are still healing really fast and doing gens still very fast. There are games that last only 3 minutes.
Gen speed is just as busted as ever.
Like I said, none of those things are supposed to be individually massively impactful. They're supposed to add up and operate in tandem with one another, which is what they do.
Though, I do have to point out, Dead Hard was so disgustingly overpowered that what we have now is nowhere close. It's still a good perk but it's completely fair now in a way it never was before.
Overall, the game's changes in and since 6.1.0 have been aimed at strengthening the killer fundamentals; occupy survivors and force them not to do generators by giving them other things they have to react to, like hooks. In that vein, killer got a lot better in pretty much the exact way that the patch presumably wanted.
If you play to spread your pressure, gen speeds aren't busted. They're only fast if multiple survivors are being left uncontested for a serious amount of time, OR if the team brought toolbox builds. The latter is unbalanced and needs changes, to be clear.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859972#Comment_3859972
Absolutely not true. Yes, gen speed got nerfed but only 10 seconds, that does not compensate the fact that basically every gen defence perks that mattered got nerfed hardly. The only gen defence that was never nerfed were Surge, Oppression, and Dying Light, which are all underwhelming when compared to old Pop, and Pentimento, which needs another perk to function. Also, gen regression got nerfed by imposing a limit on 8 regression actions per gen, which severely hinders Eruption since it consumes 2 actions on usage. Also, the fact that you have to kick gens to make it work really hinders you since, as killer, you have to really measure your time and kicking a gen really slows you down. Overall, Surge is vastly superior to Eruption and is not even that good.
As I said, Pain Resonance is good, just when compared to everything else. OG Pain Resonance was much better, since it allowed you to get 15% regression out of every hook. Pop Goes the Weasel, OG Ruin (the skillchecks one) were also much more effective as regression. Call of Brine was also better, not to mention Eruption, which made the survivors do no gens for 25 seconds. Current Pain Resonance does basically nothing compared to the old regression perks.
Gen Defence is still needed because base gen protection is basically non existent.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859973#Comment_3859973
5 seconds BT is fine. It is strong and became basekit. What isn't fine is 80 seconds BT lol
It's not just the gen speed, it's the gen speed on top of everything else.
Less time spent wiping your weapon and staring at the pallet/wall/gen you're kicking means you can get back into chases quicker, overall. Not by much, but it adds up.
Actual immediate regression from kicking generators gives you more freedom to regress those generators without perks, since the time you spend kicking can be refunded with a direct benefit in more scenarios.
Shorter post-hit sprint from survivors means they can waste less of your time by just getting hit and holding W, shortening chases overall and strengthening the value of deadzones since they're harder to escape. Shorter chase times means more pressure from hooks, which means the gens take longer overall.
Certain survivor perks being considerably weaker, especially Dead Hard, also contribute to this shortening of chase times for skilled killers and loop into the benefits from the above point.
None of these things are standalone bullet points that are supposed to radically alter the killer experience on their own, they're all part of a layered set of changes that shifted more power towards killers who know how to leverage the slowdown that's present in the game's basic mechanics.
Add in to all of that later changes like 6.7.0 reigning in totally busted self healing, and you have a state of the game that really doesn't require slowdown perks anywhere near as heavily as before. They're still good, so there's still plenty of reason to run them, but you aren't completely boned if you don't have them anymore.
Gen protection may be minimal basekit, but gen slowdown basekit can be extremely potent if you're on the ball.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859953#Comment_3859953
Gen defence is still as needed as ever. Eruption is basically a useless perk, as the only benefit it gives is 10% regression, which is... A missed skillcheck as a survivor. Pain Resonance on the other hand is good... If you compare it to everything else that is crap now. It only saves you 18 seconds per hook, only 4 times.
Gen defence is significantly less needed than before 6.1.0, specifically because of a combination of factors including the total generator time at base going up, chase times overall going down, self healing being significantly reigned in so pressure from injuries matters more, and methods of speeding generators up being toned down. Most, albeit not all, of those things happened in 6.1.0 or very soon after.
Eruption gives 10% on multiple gens at once, which is why it has a slightly lower number than some other perks. It's the same idea as Surge, which has a low number but can hypothetically affect multiple gens- except Eruption has a bigger number and can realistically affect more gens. I'll happily grant that Eruption is a little killer-specific, but on the killers who can use it well it's perfectly serviceable.
Pain Res isn't only good compared to everything else, it's just flat out very good. Eighteen seconds off a gen on top of the slowdown that you get from spreading your pressure off a hook is very nice, especially since Pain Res is guaranteed to affect the generator that you'd need it to affect the most.
Remember, gen defence perks exist to support your basekit slowdown, not replace it. They always operate in tandem with the slowdown you get from playing well.
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I've been having this issue as well, but only recently. I guess something changed recently in the back end to cause that kind of thing?
Whatever the cause, it is annoying. Hopefully it can be addressed soon.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
Here is the aftermath of the 6.1 update
Pop was killed and to compensate we got Eruption and Overcharge, which were good for a while… Before they got nuked.
On the survivor side, Dead Hard got reworked and it is meta. DS got nerfed too, was still strong, and it got buffed again in the future. Iron Will shares the same story. OTR which was a stealth perk became a "give the survivor superpowers, Mega Decisive Strike" perk, and it is still untouched today.
So, out of the update, if you are a killer you ended up at a loss, and if you a survivor, you ended up in a profit.
That's a little skewed, don't you think?
The user above already detailed all the other things killers got that haven't yet been changed, so I'll point out that the basekit changes and perk changes from 6.1.0 were supposed to make slowdown perks less necessary, and they succeeded. The fact that slowdown perks are weaker (kinda, we still have Pain Res as a powerhouse) is fine because you don't need them to be anywhere near as strong.
Also, Eruption is still a good perk.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/435315/seasons-greetings-from-the-fog
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859614#Comment_3859614
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RBDXCHQGRNCM/tmp.gif
I am beyond myself with gratitude. 💐💐💐
Sincerely, I love horror. I love this game. And I love this community. I’ve always found a home in the horror genre- I’m sure many of us can relate. For one reason or another we are all here enjoying this game together.
@TheSingularity (pre and post 😊)
@CountOfTheFog 😊😄💐
@Shroompy 😊😄💐
+ Everyone else I didn’t list!!! 💐💐💐
I’m a huge fan of being the change you want to see. The above people have demonstrated a willingness to be that change while remaining their authentic selves. I see Dbd reflected in every single person listed and on this forum. These people will give you the best that they have to offer. Why not match that passion and be the change you want the dbd community to become? Why not? It can happen. They can help you get there.
I wanted to thank @For_The_People for being the first person from the forums that I’ve ever played Dbd with. He is a very sweet person who will give you his time of day in earnest if you need him to. He’s one of the prime examples of politeness in this community. Thank you for being a positive force in the community. 😊😊😊
Lastly I need to thank @solarjin1 . What can I say? When you meet a friend that gets you, you both just know it. Her courage to be funny and humorous are so infectious. She told me that the small pallet in rpd was the most op pallet. I was so naive of game knowledge that I believed her! LMAO! After that I realized that it was anything goes when it came to humor with her. I’m at my best when I can be silly. Solarjin1 is that friend who brings out the best in me. Thank you Solarjin1 for all the laughs and for the laughs to come 😂 I’m going to be collecting🤣🤣🤣
None of this would be possible if we didn’t have a phenomenal community team here to support us discussing this twisted hobby we all have. Thank you again to everyone at Bhvr for putting your hearts and souls (ha!) into everything that is Dbd.
They say you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar…
Let’s just use blood instead 🩸😈🩸
Appreciate the kind words, and congrats on your victory here :3
Here's to 2025 having even more passionate and constructive debate. I'm certainly not going anywhere!
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859715#Comment_3859715
For Survivor, the meta just flat out changed.
Not really… when you look at archetypes of perks, things just shifted like they did for Killer.
Dead Hard as an Exhaustion perk continued to be meta; players who wanted distance just swapped to another Exhaustion perk, but the Exhaustion archetype has and still continues to be meta.
Anti-Tunnel shifted from Decisive Strike to Off The Record. Granted Off The Record had a lot of issues and could easily be bypassed by the Killer, but there was not a strong enough alternative. Either way, the Anti-Tunnel archetype of perks still remained meta. In fact, this was the only significant shift in the meta.
Perks like Adrenaline, Resilience, Unbreakable, Deliverance, etc. that were already meta before so now immediate changes and remained meta before/after the changes. A lot of perks were buffed to shine more, I think Lightweight is an amazing example, but they even after the buffs making them really good, they are having to compete against meta perks, and people will often opt into the meta over them, which is why the previously mentioned perks still remained meta.
I think that's where we kind of have to circle back around to your expectations being way too high to be reasonable for any given single patch.
Even a big shakeup patch like 6.1.0 isn't going to fundamentally change ingrained player habits like that, nor is it going to change the fundamentals of the game such that certain kinds of perks aren't going to inherently be pretty appealing. That doesn't mean nothing meaningfully changed and it definitely doesn't mean there were no successes.
Meaningfully, the gameplay surrounding Off The Record is completely different to the gameplay surrounding Decisive Strike, and that's just one example. If we look at last year's top ten survivor perks that BHVR shared - admittedly outdated now but iirc the significantly less reliable Nightlight doesn't show them being tremendously different - they paint a picture of gameplay that's considerably different to old Dead Hard used in conjunction with old offence-oriented Decisive Strike shored up by Unbreakable.
There is a degree to which the specific perks changing really is a meaningful meta shift even if they're the same perk archetype as before. That on top of all the other successes surrounding the overall state of the game is, I think, a better indication of what patch 6.1.0 was fundamentally going to be capable of than the game and its players radically changing overnight.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859711#Comment_3859711
6.1.0 was a gigantic patch that affected much more than just perks that were changed.
To be more specific, Im talking about the meta shake-up… Im going to be talking about the perk meta changes.
Patch 6.1.0 was full of a lot of good changes and QOL updates, and the Prestige rework was really, really damn good in my opinion. But the point of my post is to not talk about those, it's to talk about perk changes… since it's about the meta shake-up specifically.
Well, to a degree, there's only so much one patch can do.
Patch 6.1.0 certainly created the climate for the meta to shift considering how much less necessary slowdown perks are specifically because of it (and a little bit 6.7.0 too, that one helped a fair bit), like I said, but then the question becomes… how much is the patch responsible for players still seeking the path of least resistance? If the game changed such that you don't need to run slowdown perks anymore, but players still do, what should be gleaned from that? I'm not so sure myself, I think it'd be a mistake to look to one specific thing here as our answer.
There's a degree to which Eruption and Overcharge/Call of Brine being way too good affected perceptions, definitely. I still think it'd be a mistake to look directly and solely at the patch like that, though.
It's also only looking at killer. For survivor, the meta just flat out changed.
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I have to say I disagree, and I think the disagreement stems from the fact that you're only really looking at perks here when 6.1.0 was a gigantic patch that affected much more than just the perks that were changed.
For starters, just to take care of some low hanging fruit, the prestige and bloodweb changes as well as the matchmaking incentives were great for the game and absolutely weren't a failure. Those don't affect the matches themselves, though, so while I do feel it's important to mention them myself here, fair enough on them not being in your post.
Now, you and I disagree on a few of these points, so I think I should lay those disagreements on the table before I get to the real meat of my argument. First, when you talk about the infamous gen-kick meta, you say all three perks were gutted, but I would genuinely argue that's not true. Overcharge barely moved on its own since it was basically never actually good on its own merits, Eruption is still a strong and worthwhile perk, and Call of Brine was more shifted to an information perk instead of a hybrid info/regression perk. That last point might be splitting hairs, though.
You also overstate the tunnelling changes, in my opinion. You say that perks "like" Decisive Strike were nerfed, but it was just DS, that's the only anti-tunnel perk that was nerfed. The other two anti-tunnel perk related changes were buffs, one of which added a new anti-tunnel perk that didn't exist before, and they were on top of a basekit anti-tunnel system that ensured survivors could no longer be downed as soon as their feet touched the floor.
Tunnelling wasn't fully fixed in 6.1.0 and there was an uptick in tunnelling attempts as people adjusted to their new tools, but I think it's unfair to label that a failure. It's still an improvement over where things were before, even considering that the DS nerf was short sighted. It just took people a little while to figure out the best way to use the new tools so things looked worse for a bit.
So, okay, that was a lot of text for my starting disagreements, so I'll try and keep the meat of my response a little shorter to compensate, ha.
Now then, the big stuff. Basekit stuff changed, not just perks, and the things that changed were significantly better done than the problem perk changes. You talk about how 6.1.0 failed to fix there being a regression meta, and I think that's missing the forest for the trees; players are always going to bring slowdown in some form, but that doesn't mean nothing changed. When 6.1.0 made generators longer, the post-hit sprint burst shorter, weapon wipe animations shorter, and break animations shorter on top of also adding actual immediate regression for gen kicks, it succeeded heavily in making slowdown significantly less necessary than it was before. In the current state of the game, you quite sincerely don't need any slowdown to win (unless you get unlucky with a toolbox squad), and as a result, one or two slowdown perks of lower strength than what we used to have is more than enough for the vast majority of players.
Sure, most players are still going to stack slowdown for as long as the game allows them to do that, but that doesn't mean they need to do it. You do somewhat have to evaluate the game separately from overall player trends in these kinds of discussions.
Next, as I mentioned, anti-tunnel basekit exists now after 6.1.0. Before that patch, if the person rescuing you didn't bring Borrowed Time, that's it, you were just downed immediately after unhook and the only defence you had at all was Decisive Strike. The patch did weaken DS too much, that's true, but it still existed and it now existed in tandem with genuine other options, including stuff that isn't strictly anti-tunnel but synergises very well with the anti-tunnel tools that exist, like new Dead Hard and stuff like Lithe.
Finally, for the weakest but still important point, it's important to remember why this patch happened. People were sick of the exact same perks over and over again for literally years, and that was one of the major issues being addressed. Say what you will about the replacements, but the meta picks changed after 6.1.0, on both sides. Survivor slightly less so, but the old meta build of DS/DH/UB/IW wasn't the dominating combo anymore even there.
In closing, it's true that there were a noticeable number of not so well done changes to some perks in 6.1.0. Eruption, Call of Brine, Thanataphobia, Calm Spirit, and Pharmacy weren't done particularly well. That wasn't all that patch 6.1.0 was, though, and a lot of the other changes were badly needed and seriously welcome.
…So much for keeping it shorter. Whoops.
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@CursedPerson said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859536#Comment_3859536
new players aren't so dumb to not understand why a perk would be good or not, also what im suggesting doesnt elimnate the focus unlocking a few things first. It allows them to branch out in more directions and try new things after they have already been playing.
This change wouldnt just help new players but casual players too who cant grind for 1k hours to get new perks
It's not about being dumb, it's about being new. If you don't know what half the perks even do and you've only played like, five or six matches, you're not gonna know what you want to focus on getting. It took me a while to figure out what was good and what I liked playing with when I was new.
Again, I'm not against the suggestion, I just think trying to talk about how long it takes to unlock everything on everyone has nothing to do with new players. It's not for them, it's for people who are already a good ways into playing and have started setting their sights on more options.
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@CursedPerson said:
Im pretty sure players want access to all perks on the characters they play many people will see that all these perks are locked behind both paywalls and enormous grind. A good player experience isnt just about playing with what you have its about being able to try as many things as possible
Players will eventually want access to all of them, yes, but as a newer player you're not going to have any frame of reference for how good any of these things are, so you're inherently going to pick one or two to go for first.
When approaching the grind that way, new players have a lot of avenues to get BP to keep that flowing. It does get a little harder a little ways in, though, so I do think some improvements could be made. It's just not for the sake of new players.
Another thing to keep in mind- new players don't even have every character to unlock perks on to begin with. I'm hardly a new player myself, I've been playing for about four years now, and there are characters I still don't have. It's just not a new player mindset to be unlocking everything on everyone.
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Not that I'm saying progression can never be sped up, but I've always found it odd that people will invoke the new player experience while talking about an explicitly long-term, not new player focused goal like getting every perk unlocked on every character.
You don't need to do that as a new player. Chances are good that it'll be a fair while before that even crosses your mind as a new player, you'd be focusing on what you have available first and then branching out to specific other perks you want to try out, which you're also fairly likely to be doing for only one role and not both.
New players don't really have a grind problem. The game throws BP at them so they can engage with unlocking their first few things pretty easily, and they also have the absolute most available avenues for extra BP on top of that with all the old archive challenges and all the longstanding BP codes if they care to look those up.
If a grind problem exists, it's more for the intermediate stage, where people start wanting to get everything unlocked but haven't yet made significant progress. I'm not against smoothing things along there, making things a little more easily accessible from various angles - I'd love a Shrine of Secrets rework especially - but it's not for new players at all.
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I've got one for killer, one for survivor too.
From the killer perspective: Toolboxes.
Gen speeds overall aren't bad at all, they're pretty balanced. Gen speeds when survivors bring toolboxes, though, are much worse- in the rare event that everyone's bringing a toolbox with a dedicated build, it's almost unwinnable for a huge chunk of the playerbase. Absolute nightmare item, the gen speed needs to be reworked to do something else at some point.
From the survivor perspective: Tunnelling.
There's a couple issues still present with tunnelling. It's still far too easy for how much value it can give, the tools against it should absolutely be strengthened, but more than that I take issue with the fact that a killer can tunnel someone out and still have access to strong slowdown combos in the resulting 1v3. If slowdown perks deactivated when someone died, players would be pushed towards a much healthier playstyle while still getting results and if they did tunnel, their opponents would at least have a slight chance from the fact that the regression is only going to come from gen kicks.
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You're looking for healing yourself, I assume?
The strongest possible combination there right now is Strength in Shadows and Botany Knowledge. SiS on its own is still very good, but Botany pushes it to the point where it's outright faster than someone else healing you and you can heal others faster on top of that, alongside the nice aura reading that SiS provides.
Inner Strength is great, I like to run that with Overzealous so I can kill two birds with one totem and get varied value from totem hunting. I'd recommend a Map with the "killer belongings" addon (or just a Rainbow Map) for finding totems instead of spending a perk slot on it, though.
Medkits are still quite good, too. You can stack charges for multiple heals, or do one charge addon + a syringe for two heals one of which can be used mid chase.
Resurgence paired with any of these things makes healing after unhooks considerably faster and gives you more room to heal yourself from any dropped chase, too.
You can run Self-Care and Botany Knowledge for the most flexible self healing tools, but the end result there is still relatively slow at 30 seconds per heal. Good, but vulnerable to any kind of anti-heal.
Basically the only things I wouldn't recommend are Self-Care on its own, or Pharmacy without some kind of chest build.
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@Lixadonna said:
But for Killers who they wanted to know who we felt needed what are people looking at strictly Buffs? For example, I could say Xenomorph needs an update in a Buff sense or Plague needs an update in a Nerf sense.
That was my issue with the question, too. Perfectly fine thing to ask but it definitely needed a checkbox or text entry box for clarifying whether you think the killer is too good, too weak, or needs changes in an area not related to outright strength.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
What on earth is with the needless asking for Nerfs for perfectly fine, balanced, functional Killers?
You do all realize if you ask for nerfs like these they will just buff other more annoying parts of their powers, right? You all know you're not entitled to ask for Killers to be destroyed just because you successfully all got Skurchent made useless, right?
Half of these changes are buffs, I think you might be reacting prematurely.
To the wider topic: Not bad changes overall, but there's a couple things I'm not sure of. I don't think the Nemesis zombies are anywhere near as strong or consistent as they'd need to be if Tentacle Strike is being nerfed that hard, for example, and Trapper definitely shouldn't start with all his traps.
As for Legion specifically, the devs are changing Deep Wounds in January, so I suppose we'll have to wait and see which direction would be better there lmao
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Well, they wanted to make sure people understood what those terms meant before asking about what killers need each, I'd imagine.
I also think they might be kinda concerned people don't know about those terms whenever a roadmap is released, which anecdotally I certainly see happen sometimes when people speculate about what the changes might be.
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As others have said, there's not really a plummet, the playerbase ebbs and flows over the year consistently.
Even if there were, though, 36k on just one platform is still a very healthy number. Not much reason to be concerned about that.
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The MMR has those as its win conditions because they were already the game's win conditions, not the other way around.
There has been some ambiguity in the past in some areas, but the game's basic mechanics are all geared towards one specific goal on each side. There's basically no way to interpret that as anything other than the win condition for that side.
Sure, the ambiguity as to exactly how many kills you need to win existed - it's logical that you need to get more kills than escapes, but should three kills count, or only four - but even hatch wasn't ambiguous a while back, it just was an escape.
People can care about other things than winning, of course, I'm one of those players myself, but that doesn't change what the game's win conditions are. MMR being explained only confirmed those things as the win conditions, it didn't suggest them as the win conditions.