jesterkind
jesterkind
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Not that I disagree that having fewer chapters a year would probably be healthy, but I do think some people are maybe overlooking that the technical performance/QA of chapters and events had been pretty decent for a good few releases prior to Houndmaster and the current Bone Chill event.
In recent terms this period is an outlier. Doesn't excuse it from criticism, of course, but it's not part of an unchanging pattern or anything.
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Extremely funny that they bothered to put checkboxes for the characters everyone unavoidably owns because they're in the base game, lol.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857570#Comment_3857570
I would agree if the tools and procedure to bust an aggressively defended 3-gen didn't exist, but they do exist.
Therefore I maintain that this system isn't truly fair.
None of those tools were basekit, so you're in a position where players either have to run the exact same tools every single game just in case the killer decided they wanted to 3-gen that game, or lose whenever they face a killer that tries it.
This way, there's something players can leverage no matter what their build is.
It's fair either way because the killer doesn't actually lose out on 3-gen value if the survivors create one, though. As long as you're trying to win instead of stall a 3-gen is still very beneficial to you.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857037#Comment_3857037
The thing is that this worst case scenario for the survivors is usually self-inflicted due to low or zero macro consideration, after which the killer just isn't allowed to defend from being pushed into an equal scenario of dire straits (unless they have high mobility or a travel feature).
So why exactly should the survivors receive favor, take precedence and benefit from a special system that, in essence, forces the killer to let them score a touchdown?
How does it make any sense in terms of what's actually fair?
The answer mostly lies in the fact that it's not self inflicted, mostly.
Don't get me wrong, it can be self inflicted, both before and after the 3-gen system was introduced. It's still very bad for the survivors when it happens that way, too.
But, the reason it's okay to include a system like this is because killers could, before, go out of their way to force a 3-gen by just defending it aggressively from the start.
So, to recap, we have a system that still allows for poor macro play to put the survivors in a losing position, but that prevents the killer from stalling excessively in that scenario + stops them from being able to force that scenario either way. I think that's pretty fair, personally.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856876#Comment_3856876
and the moment he chases them, another survivor pops right back onto the gen. It's a lose-lose. Either way, the gen is a loss guaranteed. Chase off the survivor, the gen gets worked on. Dare touch it, and that's one less charge. Don't touch it, and that gen gets pushed further to further to 100%. You're expecting survivors to not touch the gen while you chase off survivors - that isn't realistic. In any situation, if you chase, someone else is hopping onto the gen. If you just camp the area, then you're losing all the other gens on the map.
I mean, yeah, if the whole team is concentrating on that one gen, it's going to get progress. Even without the eight kick limit that's true.
What you really have to do is end the chase quick enough to get back to the gen before it's completed, if you're trying to defend it. That or make your gameplan around it getting done, which is probably stronger overall in most other circumstances.
There's just no world where continually damaging a generator like that is the right call, and any world where it is the right call would be far too much gen stall for no effort.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856977#Comment_3856977
It depends on the killer kit and whether or not the survivors brought gen perks.
If the killer kit has high-mobility or a travel feature, then they could make a last ditch attempt. If not, the killer is pretty screwed unless the team somehow miraculously blunders into a 4-man knockdown.
Let's say we're on Asarov's with 3 gens in a corner and 1 gen on the other side of the map -
If survivors have things like Deja Vu, Resilience, Prove Thyself, Leader, Hyperfocus/Stakeout or Potential Energy, it isn't a fools errand to prevent the scenario or try to snake a generator from an M1 killer defending a 3-gen and suddenly flip things into an indefensible gen-split scenario.
I wouldn't call it healthy to step in and throw down a system that ignores the power level of all killer kits and basically shoves a proverbial middle finger in the face of every killer player just because most survivors refused to pick up the tools at their disposal.
Sure, different killers are going to struggle more or less in different scenarios, but that's somewhat missing the point.
Assume the worst possible setup for the sake of this argument, an immobile M1 killer on a map that really needs to be reworked for this reason like Azarov's. The survivor's worst case scenario is a massive, almost unwinnable amount of game stall where nothing really happens.
The killer's worst case scenario, here, is that the match progresses to the next stage of the game and they have to play around the exit gates instead of the generators. That's not great for them, but it's not unwinnable and things are still actually happening.
There's no next stage of the game to progress to if the survivors have to deal with an old 3-genning killer, the game just stalled out entirely until someone decided to throw by taking the first risk.
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@Anti051 said:
I'm not sure there should be a limit at all.
I mean why should there be a special system for "3-gen" scenarios, but nothing for the killer equivalent when there's 1 gen on one side of the map and 2 on the complete opposite side of the map.
Like…it's cool for the killer to be screwed at the macro level, but not the survivors? Why?
Because the killer has way more ability to both prevent that situation from forming, and still win after getting into that situation.
The worst case scenario for a killer there is that the last generator gets done and they have to make their play in the endgame. The worst case scenario for survivors here is a stalled-out slog where they can't get repair done but the killer won't leave to progress their objective either.
It's healthier for everyone if killers can't stall matches out like that.
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The devs balance around both, as any dev should.
I think the way they phrased it a while back was "qualitative" and "quantitative" data? IE, they look at both the quality of the experience from feedback the community gives and commentary from those who stream that experience, and the data they can quantify with hard numbers on their end, and then adjust things according to both of those + their vision for the game.
It's a mistake to look only at data. Numbers don't tell the whole story in isolation.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856499#Comment_3856499
And what was his other option? Just let survivors freely push the gen to completion?
…Send the guard out to patrol and catch the survivors, then act on that information by chasing them himself.
If it's a high priority gen, the survivors working on it are the ones you should be chasing, not ones across the map. Mindlessly damaging it over and over without trying to stop survivors from repairing it won't do anything for you.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856591#Comment_3856591
It falls into the same domain of 'really bad precedent' honestly. Twins might even have it worse, as now that their rework was cancelled it'll probably never, ever happen while at least SM mains can hope for a rework in 2027 or something.
I'm sure all Freddy mains are worried as hell right now.
I still feel like just folding in any other change you also don't like into this discussion is a little inappropriate, it muddies the waters. Besides, why stop there? There've been more bad changes than just that.
Best to keep our focus on the things that follow a pattern, otherwise we'll lose focus completely.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856378#Comment_3856378
Because rather than seeing how it played out on live, the Twins rework was almost completely reverted in favor of some mild QOL changes. Addons were left untouched as some of the worst in the entire game.
Then most of the big QOL changes were at least partially reverted.
It's not the Skull Merchant nerfs but close enough that it calls the cops when the Skull Merchant nerfs play loud music.
Yeah, but that's a completely different situation than the one being discussed.
The pattern being discussed is things being intentionally overnerfed so they're effectively removed from play until a later date. That's happened twice, and didn't happen to the Twins, who were buffed overall.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856380#Comment_3856380
As a survivor, you can effectively forced a gen to get the 8 gen limit within 6 minutes of a match. That's actually one of the meta strategies. Find an incredibly important gen, such as rpd lobby, repair it, and the moment you hear a tr, just flee. The killer has no choice but to regress the gen or otherwise let it get completed for free. Then once they leave, you immediately hop back on. The center of the map is vital to win, so they'll be patrolling that gen very often, not to mention almost everyone runs through lobby through chases. They either don't regress it and lose the gen, or they regress it, but since it's such a high traffic gen, you can guarantee that the gen is completed or reached 8 regressions within just a few minutes.
Example of said strat. Half the charges gone in 3 minutes.
https://youtu.be/JsA8ApZOCTA?si=IgAbGTRn5_MLMjhv
As a survivor, you are completely incapable of forcing the killer to aggressively damage generators again and again.
I've seen this video before, and it's a good example of what this system does punish. This Knight is very clearly trying to stall that generator for the sake of stalling that generator, and isn't attempting to use the generator as bait for pursuing their actual objective.
Whether they just didn't realise what they should be doing, or they were making an active choice to try and stall the match out, doesn't really matter. All that Knight needed to do to both play ten times better and completely invalidate the anti-3-gen system was just send that guard out to patrol the area and harass the survivors, not continually damage the gen for no benefit. This system does kind of punish you for mindlessly kicking gens over and over, but I'm okay with that false positive, it can push players into unlearning bad habits.
Gen defence is often misunderstood, I think. I think a lot of killers could do with remembering that it's just a tactic to give you more time to achieve your objective, not your objective in and of itself.
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@Teroo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856378#Comment_3856378
The Twins reworks matters in this conversation because it's an example that their promised solution to the problem can both take WAY longer that was planned and be absolutely awful and not even get implemented and fix the issue
Sure, but they also didn't intentionally nerf the Twins into uselessness before that fix, so it's not really super comparable. A lot of changes took a long time to make, and some of them ended up pretty good when we did finally get them.
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I don't think this'd be a good change, personally. For one, it'd still allow killers to stall the game quite a bit with a 3-gen, since getting to eight regression events tends to take a while- especially with just kicks.
I've seen the argument about Surge blocking generators before the endgame before, but I'm always a little unsure how you could've gotten eight downs and not had at least most of them convert to hooks. Plus, eight hooks (if it is that many) is extremely likely to have someone dead already, and even if you're going out of your way to spread hooks as much as humanly possible, that's still everyone on death hook.
Do you really need to kick generators when you're that close to winning? I don't see this affecting someone unless they're going for generator stall over their objective, which is what this system was designed to tackle, in the broad strokes.
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I'm not sure why people count the Twins rework in this conversation, that was very obviously a different situation- not least because the Twins were in fact buffed from where they were before, not nerfed.
That being said, I also don't much like this precedent, though we must also acknowledge why it's happening. It's happened to two things so far - Skull Merchant and the Knotted Rope addon - and both have a specific reason that they happened. Not good reasons, but it is more specific than just "they didn't like the thing".
To be constructive about the Knotted Rope - as I've spoken about Skull Merchant ad nauseum already lol - I recognise the concern BHVR had with it being a problem over the period that they wouldn't be around to fix it, and I'd like to offer this olive branch: You should've killswitched it instead.
That isn't what the killswitch is for, of course, and it'd set a bad precedent too with people thinking anything they think is simply unbalanced and nothing more could also be killswitched, but I think that would've been a less distasteful situation than just flat out making the thing worthless.
Personally, I just would've left it as is and took the risk that people made it obnoxious, but if action needed to be taken I think bending the rules on the killswitch would've been healthier than the road they did take.
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It's happened to me a couple times, but it's not been consistent, thankfully.
I've found it's worse in the first game I play after booting up the game, then smooths out again.
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I'd probably recommend not putting all your eggs in the totem-cleansing basket, though I also enjoy those builds so I'm hardly gonna judge anyone for also doing it, haha.
For me, the best way of balancing this - especially now that Thrill's being nerfed - is to only bring two totem perks, and bring a Map item for tracking the totems. Overzealous + Inner Strength is my go-to here, because it gives you varied effects for one action, but I also sometimes run just one of them alongside Counterforce just to lower the time investment overall.
For your other two perks, if you want to escape in solo queue, you're probably gonna want some more varied stuff. Something like Kindred, Empathy, or Bond for knowing where your teammates are at critical junctures is always a good shout, and separately, I'll always swear by Deja Vu being one of the overall best tools survivors have for preventing miserable late-games. A little chase could work for one of your two slots as well, something like a Lithe if you want to keep it simple would let you evade the killer a little more which can put you back on gen-jockey duty if your teammates aren't doing it themselves.
You could also abandon the totem-cleansing shell and just do genrushing builds. Commodious Toolbox with charge addons, Streetwise, Built to Last, Deja Vu, flex pick. Distortion works to try and stay hidden early on so you can do maximum gen repair. Bit boring, but very very strong.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855731#Comment_3855731
To be clear in context here, I'm mainly talking about her dropping her drone at a loop (which is the other obvious place to put them besides gens).
This depends a bit on the area. At a jungle gym, or high walled tile, you're literally running into a blind spot and will need to take the corner slower to double check before looping. The smarter, and better option is to leave the loop.
If you're at a low walled tile, or pallet, you might be able to crouch for just a second and let it pass over you... If you're traveling counter to the drone sweep direction. Best case, this is a second or two of a massive move speed reduction because you only crouch walk at about 1.13. So you're taking about a 70% move speed reduction doing it this way and hindering yourself.
It gets worse, and longer, if you're traveling in the same direction as the drone sweep. And, unfortunately for the survivor, the killer determines the loop direction.
In basically every case, if SM drops a drone, the best play is always leave the loop. All of those other options lose you a ton of distance, which will make you get hit sooner, which was my point.
Right, I see.
Well, there are definitely a lot more loops that you can just flat out play like normal when SM drops a drone at a loop than you're implying, but if we're specifically talking about the "drop drone at loop to try and zone survivors away" playstyle being annoying and repetitive, I'm not gonna contest that. I've never liked that element of her and I'd be down for seeing it changed.
Not that any of this matters now that her drones barely do anything, but y'know.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855619#Comment_3855619
The huge problem though here is that the killer is incentivized to almost never be "far across the map" from the drones.
She's an area denial killer, with a pretty large area. When she first released, people pretty much instantly realized that camping a 3 gen was the go-to way to play her. That's a big part of why it took several perk nerfs, her first rework, and a new base kit mechanic to finally kill off the 3 gen meta.
She also wants to call back her drone (instantly, "deactivated" or not, mind you) and place it again in the same spot.
And while you can go through the effort to avoid her drone beams by crouch walking or by timing, she's usually nearby and can just interrupt your little DDR session.
And, this is the kicker, none of the "counter play" is possible in chase. Crouch walk gives up a hit, you lose a health state. Max out your bar staying in an active drone, you lose a health state. The only answer to "she drops a drone in chase" is to hold w and leave... And she can just pick up the drone by looking at it from anywhere, nearly instantly, and do it again.
And that doesn't even touch on the laundry list of buffs and debuffs that happened during this process.
She has needed a rework for a long time.
I've never understood the argument that her counterplay isn't possible in chase. Surely, if you're close enough to the killer that tapping crouch for half a second gets you hit, you were gonna get hit either way?
Not even mentioning that there's more to leverage than just crouching, too.
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@OrangeBear said:
Is it really? It's going from 70% to 60%. This is 46 seconds to cleanse a totem to 35 seconds.
That's a pretty significant downgrade, especially when successive totems are shorter than that too.
I'd be willing to bet this is significantly less obnoxious to face than the current version.
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@trapners said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853095#Comment_3853095
Okay, lets assume for a minute your right, and slug based perks are as strong as ds and other perks
…what does that have to deal with now? Currently all survivors run the same build. Inevitably yes they will adapt to meta slugging but I doubt the perks in question gives them a extra health state, 2nd chances and practical immunity from the killler. All slugging based perks do is pick you up.
You said slugging then hooking is practical, but when people do that, surviviors gets picked up and the pressure does a circle all over again, and then u gotta worry about ds, dh, exc exc. why not just slug for the 4k to begin with to avoid that? Yes the surviviors can pick themselves up but it takes time, doesnt buff them beyond that, and it takes a portion of their dying state timer each time. Inevitably they will die. Its a slow process assuming that by some miracle they all run no mither or boon expo but once u have a 3-4k slug even if they can pick themselves up theres not much they can do
I think its better to play rather than speak hypotheticals. Play as killer and youll notice how much easier gamestyle is.
..and when inevitably survivors do switch their builds, im sure there will be a new meta. Like there always is. My guess is that killers will simply camp the slugs so when they do go up, they go back down, immediately!
Right, so, there are two points I'd like to make in response to that.
1: The first is a repetition. Remember, the buffs survivors can get from hook perks that aren't related to camping or tunnelling are pretty minor and often have comparably strong analogues that don't require hooks. Dead Hard is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't have a strict analogue, but there are Exhaustion perks that activate more than twice and are significantly easier to use, so survivors arguably have stronger options there.
Stuff like simply healing faster or getting information on the killer, though, they can just get from other perks. If those effects bother you, hooks aren't really relevant.
2: The second thing to mention is related to your assertion about how the meta would develop, with killers camping slugs to down them again immediately. Let's say that's true, and killers also won't lose the game on the back of it. Is that good for the game?
If there were a reasonably implemented basekit Unbreakable, killers would still be able to aggressively slug and get value, but there'd be some room for survivors to have active gameplay in response to it. Isn't it tremendously bad for the game if only one side of any trial gets to have active gameplay and a chance at outplaying their opponent? Shouldn't we be pushing for a state of the game where everyone gets to make plays and consider their options, instead of having no options?
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I agree, Lightborn's design isn't fantastic and really should be changed for consistency.
Others do bring up a good point with Flashbangs needing to be fixed too, but I see no reason to assume those can't both be done at once, so that's not a reason not to rework Lightborn. Just something to keep in mind.
Something that would be interesting would be to change a few more counters/reaction perks to blinds to give killers a spread of appropriate options instead of one overwhelming option. Perks like Shadowborn, Two Can Play, Overwhelming Presence, and maybe even new ones entirely could all be reworked/tweaked to be appealing counter-picks to flashlights and flashbangs alongside Lightborn.
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Agreed.
The clunkiness of the "snap to" element of her Search ability and the fact that Chase's hitbox is a little too punishing are my main issues with the killer at the moment, she's pretty fun otherwise.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853183#Comment_3853183
Yes. I'm ready to take a risk. Nothing in this game scares me anymore. So far, all the nerfs to the sad tactics of camping and tunneling make me a better player. True, not in the ways that a survivor would like to see. Many years have passed, and I'm still here, no matter how much all these nerfs try to drive me away. The only difference is that for the surviving side, with each such nerf, it gets worse and worse. I will never tire of repeating this jar of spiders in which the survivors locked themselves.
My principle is simple: I will find a way to kill a survivor. Another thing is that I would like 12 hooks, not a slug. The main key point is killing. Yes, I will be sad knowing that the surviving side is not having fun, but I will still take what is due to me. Therefore, as I said earlier, make it pleasant for the survivor to die (12 hooks and chases), otherwise the killers will look for alternative ways to kill you.
My prediction for the unannounced mori shop. If the killers show solvency at the level of Feng Min suits. I think slugging as a tactic will be safe. Otherwise, I don't see why they introduced basic mori into the game and some silence on the slug issue.
By all means, take any opportunity you see to earn a kill.
At the same time, though, I would suggest that you prepare to adapt again when the shortcut you're taking gets nerfed. It's up to you whether you want to try and excel with the fundamentals, or take whatever tactic seems strongest at the moment- just understand that unfairly strong shortcuts, or tactics that leave your opponents without much to do, are inevitably going to be changed.
The devs don't actually have to bend over backwards to make playing the fundamentals even stronger than the shortcuts, in a lot of cases they just need to nerf the shortcuts. People will eventually have to stick with the more conventional and skill-expressive elements of the game if the alternatives are just made worse.
Seriously, though, slug if you want, I'm not telling you not to as some kind of authority figure. I just recommend learning the fundamentals instead because you'll be a lot safer from nerfs that way.
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Why would there be?
Thrill's in a different situation to Shoulder the Burden, they aren't linked in any way.
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If they did that, we'd be in a position where the killer side has an oppressively busted tool and you as survivor have to pick another perk to counter it, or you're just boned.
That's not actually perk variety, it's the opposite, it narrows your perk slots down because you kinda have to bring Small Game or Counterforce in case the killer decided to run a hex build— and there's no reason for killers not to do that because Thrill makes cleansing hexes incredibly hard on a lot of the cast.
Hexes need love, and totem perks on survivor could also stand to be a little better depending on the specific perk, but this isn't a healthy direction to go in with it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'll let you in on a secret that's whispered among killer mains. You can't camp, tunnel, or slug someone who's good at chasing. Maybe that's the incentive survivors need to get better at chasing. Killers always tend to save strong survivors for last.
Indeed, from my experience, a 4-minute slug timer allows me to almost accurately determine the strongest survivors. Survivors who are strong in chasing have the shortest slug timer. While survivors who are not strong in chasing spend almost all 4 minutes. I'll even say more, I've met survivors who calmly ran for almost 3-4 minutes of their friends' slug time.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853095#Comment_3853095
I'll wait. Maybe the survivors will finally show that they are capable of adaptation. Without yet another begging for a base set or a nerf. A world where the meta of each other is dynamically changing. Only in my experience, the survivors do not even know how to use Unbreakable, let alone Boon: Exponential or Plot Twist.
There was a thread here where a person gave advice on how to counter slug. This thread was not popular, because it is much easier to complain than to become a better player. That's why we are here, where they talk about bad killers, and not where they advise how to deal with slug.
I am for the meta to change. It doesn't matter what. I just don't want to see another 2 years of the slow and aura meta. It's just not funny anymore, any funny killer build gets nerfed and we go back to the boring meta again. I sometimes get the feeling that the survivor side wants to see 4 slows or aura perks on Huntress forever, playing like her life depends on it.
I'm a little tired and want a 12 hook meta. A viable 12 hook meta, not like the current one. Otherwise, I'll just look for alternative ways to win. If they don't offer me ways that the survivor side would like.
People on the forums complain and ask for nerfs. People in game, to an extent, do actually adapt.
Besides, do you want to take the risk of them adapting, or just hone your fundamentals so you can win without the shortcuts that tend to get nerfs and counter-pick perks designed around them?
I think it's likely slugging will get nerfed in some way because, to be fair, a lot of its counterplay does rest on perks, and that's not ideal. It's the state tunnelling and camping were in for a while, albeit not as bad because there is some basekit counterplay, so I think it's likely we'll get some adjustments to it. Best to learn how to adapt to that ahead of time, don't you think?
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@trapners said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852757#Comment_3852757
Your actually wrong about this.
As boring as it sounds per time you get a down is 180 seconds, pair this with the fact it takes 24s to heal urself with unbreakable and thats 7.5% of their bar gone, which doesn’t seem like a lot until you realize you can only use unbreakable once, so you have to repeatably go down after that and hope a teammate revives you in time as you slowly die, or bring expo or no mither which has its own drawbacks
Also, if your calling this method useless, how come your complaining against it?
“Bully squads are kind of annoying, but even in those cases, you can ignore the most powerful off-hook effects by just ignoring the player trying to force your attention”
I can also ignore the hook based perks by..not hooking them? In some instances I literally have to acknowledge the surviviors trying to get my attention if the surviviors are trying to get a save.Your giving me alternative routes when slugging is the simplest and most optimal choice
“The bottom line is, the perks you're worried about would just be replaced with equally powerful, equally damaging perks if slugging took off to become something most survivors expect the killer to do”
Would a build of unbreakable, boon expo, well gonna live forever and soul guard really EVER be as oppressive as lets say ds, dh or otr?
I'm not calling slugging useless, to be clear.
What I am saying is that if you decide to aggressively slug everyone instead of hooking them, and the survivors bring anti-slug tools, you're going to not get very much work done. Tactically slugging as a way to increase pressure while still fundamentally going for hooks can be a good decision depending on context.
The reason this doesn't seem the case now is because players don't tend to bring anti-slug perks. They do bring hook-based perks because hooks are a fundamental element of the game and they assume they or their teammates are going to get hooked in the same way they assume they'll have to repair generators and deal with chases. If people swapped to anti-slug perks as a rule, you'd find that slugging becomes significantly less powerful for winning you games on its own, that's my point.
You have to down and slug someone many times to bleed them out, if you aren't able to get everyone on the ground at once. You only have to hook people three times to kill them, and you get more from the act of hooking them too.
To address that last sentence specifically: The answer to that question is yes, if you are aggressively slugging. Anti-slug perks would be absolutely as oppressive to a killer playing in that way as DS and OTR are to a killer that's tunnelling, and easily infinitely more oppressive than those perks are to a killer that isn't tunnelling.
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@trapners said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852665#Comment_3852665
I referred to pick rate, and you kind of missed my point
while yes, ds is a tunneling perk that actively only works if your being tunneled, but survivors can force killers to chase them off hook to get value. Its present in nearly every bully and meta squad for a reason
And the difference being slug perks only function to help slugging, nothing else. Hook perks offer 2nd chance perks, extra health states, healing total health states, and just general buffs that seem overwhelming. While the most “powerful” slug perk that does more than help slugging is plot twist, which heals u a whole health state. Perks like unbreakable, expo and more only serve to stop slugging. Nothing more
And once again, theres nothing wrong with hooks giving alternative effects like stopping tunneling and stuff, but it gets to a point where a killer can decide whether to deal with all of those passive buffs or just slug and watch them get up once or twice
Pick rate? How would pick rate show how powerful something is?
In any case, it kinda doesn't matter what else hook perks do if slug perks just stop you from getting any work done. After you get a hook, you have directly progressed your goal even in the worst case scenario where someone uses Deliverance to neuter your hook pressure.
Contrast that to Unbreakable if your chase ends with a slug. Your pressure is neutered because only one survivor is occupied, and you're no closer to your goal. It's a far worse scenario for you than someone getting to heal faster once, or gain an extremely limited parry in their next chase.
Bully squads are kind of annoying, but even in those cases, you can ignore the most powerful off-hook effects by just ignoring the player trying to force your attention. The stuff left over to be worried about is pretty minor, in comparison. Much more in line with effects survivors can get that aren't tied to hooks.
The bottom line is, the perks you're worried about would just be replaced with equally powerful, equally damaging perks if slugging took off to become something most survivors expect the killer to do.
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@danielmaster87 said:
There won't be. Nerfs only get "compensation" if it's for survivors. Even if killers get compensatory buffs, they're done away with sooner or later, because of complaints of "overuse" or "OP." Look at Pop going from 25% of total to 30% of current. "That's too strong!" And now it's back down to 20%, less than its original number AND only does current progress.
The 6.1.0 buffs for killer are probably the best example. What buffs have killers kept from that, in their base and in their perks? Basically none. Those miniscule little buffs to kicking and attack recovery; that's it. But hear it from any survivors, and they're like "OMG! The game became unplayable after that!" yet they still play and complain about the game.
You're also right that these nerfs are getting put in due to complaints alone. There's been little, if any, real argument or testing to justify all these killer nerfs. It's just feelings-based and exaggerated nonsense, talking about "The killer has 3-4 hooks or everyone slugged before 1 gen is done!" and stuff like that. Literally how? How is your team playing that bad? And the funny thing is they still blame the killer, like it's something he did. In reality, I don't think there's any build, strategy, or efficient play that killer can do that's gonna give him anything close to that lead. It's only if the killer is going against way lower caliber teams than himself. Just watch high level survivors vs high level killer. The killer 100% is gonna be sweating from match start to end, whereas survivors are only ever sweating if they're the 1 out of 4 in chase. The rest of the time they're chill, on gens, on hook, or healing. They're not complaining about killers being too strong, at least I hope they're not. It's mostly the casuals, who couldn't buy their team 30 seconds of time if their life depended on it.
So I think killers are gonna get that Thrill nerf, in face of countless losses/tough matches with it against competent survivors, and they'll get nothing in exchange for it. They've been getting nothing all year, and survivors still claim that THEY are the ones getting dealt a bad hand.
To specifically answer the question about 6.1.0: Almost all of them.
To my recollection, none of the basekit buffs have been reverted or adjusted. The break action speed increase, weapon wipe animation speed increase, and post-hit sprint duration for survivor decrease have all remained.
When it comes to perks, most of those are actually still in the state they were around 6.1.0's release. Looking just at the perk buffs, we have:
- Coulrophobia (Unchanged)
- Dark Devotion (Unchanged)
- Eruption (Nerfed since then)
- Jolt (Functionally unchanged)
- Knock Out (Unchanged even though it really should've been lol)
- Lethal Pursuer (Unchanged)
- Monstrous Shrine (Unchanged)
- Overcharge (Nerfed)
- Pop Goes The Weasel (Nerfed)
- Gift of Pain (Caught a stray with the Mangled nerf, but wasn't itself changed)
- Pain Resonance (Reworked)
- Thanataphobia (Nerfed)
That's twelve perks, of which only four were nerfed since the patch's release and one was sidegraded a short while later. Sure, stuff like Dark Devotion never really pierced the meta, but that's not all that's on this list, there's some genuinely strong stuff here too.
Not very much of 6.1.0's killer adjustments have actually been reverted or adjusted since then, mostly just the problematic stuff- and not even all the problematic stuff since Knock Out is still around.
Killers also, do, when appropriate, get compensatory buffs. The operative phrase here is "when appropriate", because compensatory buffs are only a tactic to employ when you want power to shift instead of go down. Thrill wasn't tested and seems a little overbearing, it doesn't necessarily need a compensatory buff. If it gets one, I would personally argue it should get one on a PTB where it can actually be tested.
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@trapners said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852214#Comment_3852214
Because the perks you previously mentioned arent neary as overpowering compared to hooking
Ds, a 2nd chance perk is 10x more powerful than unbreakable, according to statistics
Soul guard + unbreakable is 2 perk slots which only gives endurance for a few seconds, compared to dh which grants endurance whenever you want it
Boon: expo? Takes time off gens, compare this to deli which literally removes all pressure of hooks
Killers dont mind anti slug perks because they actually work as their intended, unlike perks like ds,dh, and more being exploited. Its actually manageable
“Spreading your hooks and pressure is more than enough to win”
Its really not. The statistics really prove the only killers that can aim for all 12 hooks are high tier killers, its literally impossible for some killers at high Mmr
I'm not sure what statistics you're referring to here, I don't think we have access to those kind of stats, but I do think you're somewhat missing my point which is that the hook perks are only stronger when you play into them.
For example, DS is a very very powerful perk, when you're tunnelling. If you're not tunnelling, it doesn't do anything, and if you're not hooking at all then Unbreakable is obviously going to be considerably stronger because whatever you're hoping to get out of slugging is going to be completely undone by that one perk.
You compare Exponential to Deliverance but Unbreakable is the actual comparison there. The difference being, Deliverance has a requirement, a penalty, and can be denied through sheer luck by that survivor being hooked first. Unbreakable, though, just works, outright.
If the killer is actually going out of their way to aggressively slug, the anti-slug perks are as a class as powerful as the hook-related perks and considerably less avoidable. You don't ever have to worry about DS, Reassurance, Camaraderie, Babysitter, or Blood Rush if you don't want to because those require you to act in a very specific way to work. There's no way of slugging that avoids anti-slug perks, though.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852455#Comment_3852455
the really good teams will attempt to avoid your hook presence & slugging presence while staying glued to gens.
for a good 1/2 of the weaker part of the cast, there physically isn't enough time to hook and chase survivors in isolation. you don't down quick enough to control tempo as killer in any meaningful way on the weaker killers. i think the only way you can down quick enough is instant down.
Survivors who stay glued to gens while someone's on the hook are giving you more time to generate pressure, not less.
They can't ignore your pressure outright, or they'll lose. The more they try, the more ability you have to punish them for it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852213#Comment_3852213
on most of killer that are average to lower average in strength, you lose by default. it is not being dramatic. the killer speed to down is not balanced towards the survivor's being able to complete all 5 gens. the survivor are way faster at completing objective than killer is at getting 10 hooks.
I made thread suggesting that weaker killer be considered to get instant down base-kit to shorten chase time. as usual, the thread is ridicule by survivors players so nothing new. Only high-tier killer tend to have quick enough chase time to have a chance at 10 hooks and they need not be outplayed to achieve that so technically, survivors can still win if they outplay killer.
You can't only look at how long it takes to get a down, though, because a huge chunk of killer fundamentals is about using that down to slow down the generators.
Survivors can do generators pretty quickly if they're left alone to do it, so it's your job as killer not to give them that luxury. If they're constantly reacting to your actions, they're not gonna be doing nearly as much generators, and you have much more time to win.
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I've never understood this argument about avoiding survivor perks, largely because a solid half at least are ones you can easily avoid even when you go for a hook, but reading this made something click for me for another reason it's a silly argument.
Let's say that slugging really picks up as a tactic, and a huge majority of killers start going for slugging straight away. Survivor's hook perks and anti-pickup perks no longer work!
…Why wouldn't they swap to anti-slug perks?
Unbreakable, Exponential, We're Gonna Live Forever, Buckle Up, Made For This, Soul Guard, Plot Twist, Tenacity, For The People, even No Mither all make slugging weaker.
The reason it looks like slugging is the best tactic to win right now is because fewer people expect it. If things shifted, people would just start bringing anti-slug perks, because a basic reality of this game is that your opponent is gonna have tools to respond to what you're doing, because it's a PvP game.
Spreading your hooks and pressure is more than enough to win if you're doing it properly, too, there's not much reason to buff it. Buffing individual hook perks could be appropriate, but only because some of them are kinda weak without considering anything about slugging and hooking in general.
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You guys are so dramatic.
You don't lose by default if you go for different survivors, it's more than possible to win that way. It's a core part of good killer fundamentals, even.
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I think the concern there is that chests share the same spawn points as some killer objects, like Jigsaw Boxes and Sadako's TVs.
Maybe they're working in the background to separate those so more chests can safely be added? If they're not doing that now, they would have to before adding more chests.
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@fixblitzskin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851756#Comment_3851756
Well weave is kinda butt. I dont use it anymore. I also don't use distortion anymore I stopped using it when it was on the roadmap to get used to not relaying on it since its gutted but I understand why it was nerfed. Its pretty common for perks to go from god tier to trash in one patch.
Weave and Distortion are two good examples of perks that were nerfed in such a way that they're not trash now.
Weave slightly less so, granted, but that perk still has its use cases. Distortion, though, is just flat out still a good perk, no two ways about it.
Most perks are still perfectly worthwhile after they're nerfed, overall. There are exceptions here and there, but for the most part things don't really stop being viable just because they were nerfed.
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@fixblitzskin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851393#Comment_3851393
ultimate weapon was nerfed mega hard. Sucks too it was a cool perk. I used that for a while as my only tracking perk
That's only one example, though, not the norm.
I also think Ultimate Weapon was massively overhyped from the start, but that's neither here or there in this context.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851397#Comment_3851397
capability to force survs to go for unhook and thus be off gens/important zones on the map by having their teammate hooked at strategic position and trying to force any remaining surv off the gen and eventually get another gen. This is already negatively affected by perks like Deliverance/Wicked and Reassurance + basekit hook timers AND indirectly huge potential of off-hook perks that let you waste even more of the killer's time.
How does StB affect hook pressure? There are couple of ways to do it:
- use StB on a weak survivor to basically make them useful as hook meat and greed them on hook as long as possible (since they will actually last longer on hook than in chase lol)
- survivor on death hook (no matter tunneling or not) magically isn't on death hook anymore
You still have to run up to a hook to use StB, though, right? I'm pretty sure you have to be literally as close as you would be for a normal unhook when you use that perk.
That means your hook pressure is unchanged. They're still dragged off a generator, they still have to go all the way up to the hook to save their teammate, you're still off occupying a third survivor with the same effectiveness as without the perk. Nothing's actually changed there.
The space that StB is actually useful, outside of tunnelling anyways, is for maintaining the 1v4 for a little longer. It doesn't actually affect your hook pressure in that 1v4.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851348#Comment_3851348
Shoulder The Burden costs you hook state to activate, not a health state, a HOOK state, those things that you only get 2 of before you die
taking a hook state of a weaker teammate as someone with better chase skills is a huge benefit, you'll learn it once you actually use the perk properly.
In the absolute best case scenario, you activate this perk on a teammate, and both of you live
in the absolute best scenario in soloQ, you will make teammate that is bad in chase useful for killing killer's hook pressure and you will waste awfully lots of killer's time.
Worst case scenario you activate the perk, die because of the Exposed, and then your teammate dies less then a minute later anyway because they're bad at the game
worst case scenario: you literally unhook the survivor in front of the killer and end up trading hook and doing literally nothing (your own mistake).
In the majority of cases, you activate the perk, and then the killer either now chases you because you've given up a hook state to save someone else, the person you saved dies 3 minutes later anyway leaving you a hook state closer to death, or absolutely nothing of note happens because the killer wasn't going to try and force the person you saved to second-stage anyway, meaning you accomplished absolutely nothing but getting yourself closer to death just to keep someone in the game for a little bit longer
killer chases you - wastes a lot of time
killer hooks that survivor again - they have to burn through additional hook state all over again.
1min of wasted killer's time is 1min of a gen progress per survivor. 3 minutes you mentioned are 2 whole gens IF one survivor only is repairing them.
And this is of course not going into how this perk can be used to grief lobbies, such as letting someone kill themselves on hook sooner, or saving someone who wants to go next and then watching as they run to the killer and let themselves get downed anyway, leaving you with nothing.
this is completely playerside fault lol.
This perk is #########, it is not some new meta-defining godsend, it's just bad and will be forgotten about in less then a month.
yeah, every meta perk is crap because average player just doesn't know how to use those
Can I ask, I don't necessarily disagree with you overall, but you keep saying this perk kills a player's hook pressure- what do you mean by that?
I'm not sure how this perk could even affect hook pressure, so I'm curious what you're referring to.
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Not really.
Pre-emptively avoiding things that have announced changes only really makes sense if you assume the thing is very likely to be worthless after said changes, which doesn't happen very often. It's usually a fair assumption the thing will still be worthwhile afterwards.
Plus, it also assumes the changes will be nerfs, which isn't always the case.
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Personally, I want it to go back to 10% per token but no longer spawn a hex so the stages of slowdown are guaranteed, but that might be a little bit much for a hotfix.
Honestly, if they just revert it back to 10% and call it a day, that's fine. Big changes should go on PTBs anyway, no reason it couldn't be thrown onto the next one, or the one after that.
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It matters a little bit in some scenarios, because it can delay the fourth survivor dying slightly longer, which can give the team the extra efficiency they might need to close out the last gen's repair.
Generally speaking, though, it shouldn't affect the killer all that aggressively unless they're tunnelling, which is fine by me.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850141#Comment_3850141
R6 siege is world wide, TCM is world wide what makes DBD so unique? I'm not here to give the road map to making this work, that's BHVR's job.
Can you lay me out your road map on what BHVR needs to do to bridge the gap?
I can't speak to R6 Siege or TCM as I haven't played those (I think TCM's voice chat was like, badly done, wasn't it? I remember that being a complaint) but I can speak to another video game in a similar vein: Overwatch.
I used to play ranked queue Overwatch fairly consistently, and let me tell you, if that game were balanced around its voice chat as the primary method of conveying information, it'd have been unplayable. The amount of times I actually got to just communicate with the other players in the match using the voice chat primarily really wasn't that common, because the issues I described constantly got in the way. The language barrier was a very common problem, people with terrible mic quality making it hard to understand what they were saying was quite common, people with massive background noise pollution were not quite as common but still hardly rare…
There is an exception to that, though. When I visited Canada for a spell, I did actually get to use voice chat more consistently, because while the other problems were obviously still present, most people in that matchmaking region there spoke the same language as me. So, clearly, voice chat is not a worldwide solution to a lack of coordination or information.
There are two other noteworthy things to mention here.
1: Overwatch wasn't balanced around the voice comms being the primary method of information. There are tons of ways Overwatch gives information to players who aren't speaking on voice comms- those are what BHVR need to look into, not voice comms. However, they need to keep in mind point two:
2: Overwatch also wasn't different to DBD in another regard. If you queued up solo in Overwatch, you did not get to coordinate on the same level as premade groups, full stop. That will never be possible in multiplayer games like this, and therefore shouldn't be the goal. Bridging the gap should focus on the things that BHVR can effect, while accepting that solo queue is inherently just always going to be less organised than the alternative. That's always gonna be a thing with solo queue, BHVR are good devs but they can't fix inherent issues with multiplayer games as a whole like that.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849525#Comment_3849525
By introducing voice chat people will feel they have agency into how to possibly overcome come and win the match because having the ability to directly communicate with someone is vastly superior to hand-waving a survivor to come follow you to do a gen. I don't about you but me seeing a survivor hiding behind a rock while I'm doing a gen just because he heard the slight faint of the killers terror radius and me being able to say, "Hey Claudette behind the rock, the killer just left come help me finish this gen and if the killer comes back I'll tank the hit for you" and hopefully he'll then chase me and the Claudette can finish the gen.
If gives BHVR the data necessary to start addressing the core issues that have plagued this came for years and start bridging the gap which is balancing around average players. Solo now has the necessary tools effectively communicate a potential game winning strategy instead of relying on the HUD and perks to gather info into what's going on with the other survivors.
Add voice-chat, give it 6 months (I'm just throwing that number out there), gather feedback and in the mean time start coming up with potential buffs/nerfs to killer/survivor perks. I'm just throwing out a "Rough draft" on what to possibly to do going forward.
If anyone has a better way to implement this please chime in.
Right, so, that is what I'm saying you won't get.
When people talk about adding voice chat, they always breeze past a few critical assumptions when setting up the benefits. They assume everyone in the match has a mic to use, they assume everyone in the match has the desire to use a mic, and they assume everyone in the match has the ability to communicate with the other people that they queued up with.
There are two major points I want to make here, and they're linked, so bear with me for both.
Point one: The first and biggest hurdle to overcome is one that certain regions simply will not be able to overcome, which is the language barrier. Even assuming everyone in the match has a mic and has the ability to use the mic, it doesn't really matter if one player speaks English, one speaks French, and the remaining two speak Spanish. Sure, those last two can communicate with each other, but not with the other two, and the other two also can't communicate with each other either.
Add onto that the other factors that can affect voice chat's ability to function even when everyone speaks the same language - mic quality, background noise, harassment causing some players to shut down comms entirely, etcetera - and suddenly voice chat becomes an extremely volatile and inconsistent tool. This leads to…
Point two: If the goal is to provide a consistent baseline of information survivors can use to coordinate with one another, and voice comms are an extremely inconsistent and volatile tool… we're right back at square one.
The problem we're aiming to fix is that some players have information and some don't, with the ones who don't having that information denied for reasons outside their control. That's the exact same position we'd be in with voice chat, from a balancing perspective barely anything has changed.
In short: Voice comms don't give you the ability to directly communicate with someone. They're only one variable that has to line up for you to get that benefit, and neither you nor BHVR control the others.
Information gain has to first come from the game itself. We've gotten a few good additions over the years there, but there are still gaps.
The other half of this conversation, of course, is that in solo queue you are never going to be able to coordinate the way that pre-made groups can. That's true of all games that have a solo queue, it's not a DBD thing.
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This'd be a great perk effect, but not something that should be basekit. Aura reading isn't that oppressive at the moment since perk slots are limited and all aura perks have some kind of meaningful restriction preventing them from being active too often, and there are also more perks to answer them than just Distortion - Shadow Step, Off The Record, and in a different vein Object of Obsession all exist in this space.
That being said, I've wanted this to be what Spine Chill does for a while. If it just alerted you to the aura without doing anything about it, you'd get solid info on what the killer has and could, where appropriate, play around it, at the cost of one perk slot. Seems like a fair trade to me.
It being on Spine Chill would also ensure everyone has it, because Spine Chill is a universal perk, and it'd be pretty thematic to the perk too. Wins all around.
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Not many perks actually do get flat out nerfed into the ground, so I'd imagine it will continue to not happen that often.
We will of course continue to see more perks nerfed, live service balancing will always cut both ways in that regard, but I imagine they'll continue to be moderate nerfs in most cases.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849481#Comment_3849481
Voice chat is a baseline on what to do next. It'll give useful data over the long term that can then be extrapolated to make for more useful decisions to the game going forward. Survivors right now have plenty of base info to work with.
I don't think I'm conveying my position properly, so let me scale back and ask you something:
What is it that voice chat provides, that translates to a baseline for balancing? What changes, what's the benefit being proposed?
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849474#Comment_3849474
Then people need to stop advocating for buffs/nerfs to killer/survivor when we don't have a base-line to work with when an outlier group (SWF) gets to run rampant.
This is what I mean- voice chat won't create that baseline the way people think it will.
At best, and this is looking at it through pretty generous lenses, it'll very slightly bridge the gap by adding a small number of instances where solo queue teammates aren't as harmed by lack of information, but it won't do that for most games and it won't fully bridge the gap even in the games it helps.
Even in other games with voice chat, you don't actually need to use it because the game provides a lot of information at base. Bare minimum DBD needs to be in that position before voice chat could be considered reasonable.
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It wouldn't fix any of the problems people complain about, it'd be a lot of ongoing effort to implement and maintain, and it'd change the tone of the game dramatically.
There are a lot of reasons to not want voice chat in this game.