jesterkind
jesterkind
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I don't think this is an issue with the Prestige system, I think focusing on that would be missing the actual issue, which is that some tools in the game are still too strong.
This isn't a pedantic difference, and we can use your screenshot to demonstrate why. We see three different iridescent addons in these survivor's builds, with one being represented twice, so let's look at those.
Is it problematic for survivors to have access to the Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe every match? I think there's a good argument for that being the case, while the addon did cop a small nerf when medkits were changed it is still one of the strongest tools a survivor can bring. However…
Is it problematic for survivors to have access to the Gel Dressings every match? I think the argument for this is a lot weaker, personally. This addon alone doesn't really do all that much, and if it's paired with another charge addon, all it does is allow two heals from medkits. Now that medkits are balanced in their speed, I don't think this is an unreasonable effect for someone to get if they're dedicating both their addons for it. Which leads us to…
Is it problematic for survivors to have access to the Rainbow Map every match? Hell no. There's no possible argument for this iridescent item to ever be considered OP or unfair to have unrestricted access to. It's a better item than its green counterpart, for sure, and it does enable some interesting builds (this player is presumably using it to find totems for booning), but it's nowhere close to being too good to have reasonable access to after "completing" a character's level up system.
Which, in turn, prompts talking about the other element here, which is that players only have access to these bloodwebs at the end of a lot of investment, so it should be some kind of benefit. I think it's much more appropriate to talk about the handful of things players can get that are problematic directly, because I don't think the bloodweb system really means much here.
Generally speaking, the unbalanced stuff is unbalanced even if you only see it once in a while, and the overtuned stuff is similarly overtuned even if you only see it once in a while. The handful of things this applies to should be addressed either way. A lot of iridescent tools are already well balanced for potentially being usable in most matches. Best to focus on the few that aren't.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849308#Comment_3849308
As I have already said, doing that doesn't work on experienced survivors because the next survivor will do the same thing, close the gap between them and Myers and rush to a loop. Repeating this process means gens get done and Myers spends whole match abandoning chases. This wasn't an issue before... Could stalk when at a loop then when stalk at max myers can abandon that survivor and look for another one while T3. So my question is what does Myers do when he abandons the chase, finds another survivor and they do the same thing? Still in the same situation of being in a loop and can't stalk.
They can only do that if they see you, though.
Remember, Myers is a stealth killer. They're ideally not supposed to see you until you want them to. He was bad at that before, but because he can keep his distance and actually gain time versus before, he's a lot better at it now.
They'll make less distance if they only start running when you're already on top of them.
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I think Meg takes this whether we're looking at individual strongest perk, or strongest spread of perks.
Meg has two S tier perks in Adrenaline and Sprint Burst, and her remaining perk Quick & Quiet is no slouch, that's also a pretty solid perk.
I'd say for overall spread of perks Sable is in second place. Like Meg she has two exceptional perks, Strength in Shadows and Wicked, though neither are as strong as Meg's and her third perk is substantially weaker than them.
Feng has Lithe and Alert, both strong and solid perks, but Technician is actively bad so I think that drags her down a little.
Kate's definitely lowest on this list as Boil Over, Windows of Opportunity, and Dance With Me are all just "okay" perks that have specific applications where they're most useful, rather than being broadly strong like some of the others on this list.
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Why run specifically No Mither?
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to bring a real build for three of your perks and try to play normally until the last gen, then do an Invocation?
Or bring Moment of Glory and only open the second chest before escaping?
I feel like there are better ways of doing this achievement than just equipping No Mither, overall.
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I don't think DBD is currently heavily weighted in either direction. Both sides have some egregious stuff they can bring, but that stuff is lesser in number and potency than it used to be, and both sides have roughly the same amount.
I also don't think current generators are all that fast, if you aren't facing toolboxes. The current state of the game allows for the killer to affect gen speeds quite a bit, it's pretty healthy in that regard.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848315#Comment_3848315
The point is it widens the gap between solo q and SWF too much.
One of the biggest double standards on these forums, is many people will demand buffs for survivors to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF…. but these same people won't want nerfs to survivors even if they rarely would affect solo q, and would mostly only affect SWF.
Because really, removing STB stacking on the same survivor would rarely affect solo q at all, so it's fine. It's 99% targeting SWFs that are purposely having multiple people run this perk.
Not really. A perk existing that SWF can use better than solo queue doesn't really affect the gap that much just as a starter, and in this particular instance, solo queue can still use the perk, so it's not a big gap even in that context.
Also, why would the response there be to nerf the perk in the scenario where it's supposed to work? Wouldn't the more reasonable solution to that proposed problem be to buff the perk for solo queue so they can also use it to properly stave off tunnelling?
Because, again, I have to ask: Does this tactic affect a killer that isn't tunnelling? This is an anti-tunnel perk, so it's supposed to be strong in scenarios where the killer is tunnelling. If you weaken that, what's it good for?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848176#Comment_3848176
If you honestly think that giving 3 extra hook states to a survivor wouldn’t affect a killer, then you should be 100% ok if the perk was nerfed to prevent the perk from being used on the same survivor multiple times.
Because why bother fighting against a nerf, if you don’t think it the nerf would affect the perk’s usefulness against killers?
You're kind of avoiding the question, though.
Does a team of survivors trying to stack StB on one survivor affect the killer when they chase literally anyone else?
The point is that it'll only work there if the killer's tunnelling, which is where it's supposed to work. All the killer has to do is not tunnel and they no longer have to deal with three extra hook states on one survivor.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848030#Comment_3848030
It widens the gap between solo q and SWF too much.
One of the biggest double standards on these forums, is many people will demand buffs for survivors to bridge the gap between solo q and SWF…. but these same people won't want nerfs to survivors even if they rarely would affect solo q, and would mostly only affect SWF.
Because really, removing STB stacking on the same survivor would rarely affect solo q at all, so it's fine. It's 99% targeting SWFs that are purposely having multiple people run this perk.
Sure, but does it actually affect the killer at all?
It's not a problem for SWF to be able to do something if it doesn't actually affect the killer. Would it actually affect the killer for StB to be stacked on the same survivor like that?
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847924#Comment_3847924
It wasn't just that.
While it's true that the og Finisher Mori & offering/perk changes were also disgusting (I still can't believe they still, mostly, went ahead with the Finisher Mori despite so many people despising it and predicting that it would make slugging for the 4k worse, the current situation proving those fears true) the core problem was how it created countless lose-lose scenarios and annoying situations and how it really didn't really fix any issue without creating another in it's place.
People would still try to slug for the 4k but they would alternate between downing the last 2 Survivors again and again (since they would keep getting up in record time thanks to various perks, not just Unbreakable) and endgame bleedouts would not only still exists but would be even longer and still boring since what hope can 2 Survivors have of finishing 2+gens on their own? So many of my games in that dreadful PTB ended with one Survivor hiding in a corner while dropping/picking up item so his teammate would keep getting up because the Killer couldn't find him, these stupid stalemates could go on for 15+ minutes!
This also turned the gap between SWF and SoloQ into an ocean. SWF could create countless lose-lose scenarios (the most common was hovering around a downed Survivor so that if the Killer picked up he would get blinded/pallet stunned but if he chased the rescuer away then the slug could repeatedly get up and leave, no need for Power Struggle & Flip-Flop to create situations like that now, where the Killer can simply leave the slug there; it's likely not going anywhere anytime soon and a 3rd Survivor will have to leave gens to pick them up since a potential Unbreakable only works once). Those situations, which were common against decent Survivors and/or SWF, were just discouraging and nuked the fun out of the game.
BHVR, rightfully so, has shown (through HUD/perk updates and said so in a past livestream sometime around the 6.5.0 update) that they want to try to bridge the gap between SWF and SoloQ because they know (they hear and see enough) that SoloQ is often a miserable experience. Basekit Unbreakable made the difference far worse.
Basekit Unbreakable was poison for the game, even worse than the annoying Finisher Mori we got now (which could easily be tweaked to be a healthy thing), and it can't come to the base game, imagine being a newcomer (or just any average player) and having to deal with 15+ minutes of constant slugging just as often as slugging for the 4k was before.
No, if a solution is to be made then it simply can't remove slugging entirely. A "bleedout button" is honestly a decent idea if it's implemented correctly, although a slight modification to the current Finisher Mori would also help a bit and be less of a (potential) tool to go next.
To be fair, those stalemates you're describing only happen if the killer actually tries to slug for the 4K, all they'd need to do is just pick up the survivor they'd downed and hook them to avoid it. I get that it'd be annoying from the survivor side if that happens, but there are ways around that if you're in that position. Delay your own pickup until the killer finds your teammate, or just run at them if you're the one not on the ground so your teammate can pick themselves up and find hatch, etcetera.
As for the whole situation of someone being downed under a pallet, what you're describing was only a problem because of the perks, like I said in my post. 45 seconds is enough time to chase someone away and potentially even secure a down on them, and even if it isn't, you've kept someone off generators for a pretty reasonable amount of time in the worst case scenario here.
Obviously, there are going to be scenarios where the killer would get less out of slugging if there were a basekit pick-up system in place, but that's both kinda the point and also not enough to lose them games if the system is implemented properly. If someone goes down under a pallet and their teammate is lingering around, you still get value out of that situation by slugging them, and that's still something you can leverage if you're playing well. Similarly, if you're just trying to slug to capitalise on someone being nearby in general, 45 seconds is plenty of time. Basekit Unbreakable doesn't remove slugging, not even a little bit, it just makes it something you think slightly harder before doing because you'd have a guaranteed time limit to get value instead of a nebulous one.
That PTB wasn't fun for a variety of factors, not just the basic premise of a survivor being able to pick themselves up off the ground.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847869#Comment_3847869
Option 3: Remove the ability for it to be used multiple times on the same survivor, which would affect SWFs much more than solo q, because SWFs are way more likely to purposely have multiple people running the perk so they can stack it on the same survivor.
Why would that be a problem?
Wouldn't you only be affected by that as killer if you repeatedly chase and hook that one survivor they're using it on?
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Sometimes I do.
I use the bloody head cosmetic for Sable because I think it looks pretty neat with the other cosmetic pieces I use, for instance. I also use the bloody head and weapon cosmetic for Myers, because he's lacking in other options.
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@Grigerbest said:
The developers clearly stated that they have no intentions to buff Trapper for now.
They think this killer is fine for beginners to play as or against.
Are you referring to that QnA from a while back, or something else, here?
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Houndsense is a really interesting effect, I've been greatly enjoying playing around with that.
She has one of the most fun to use information powers in the game, in my opinion, and I've been pleasantly surprised by just how much of a buff the whole "they glow bright red while afflicted" thing ended up being. If you tag multiple people across the map, Houndsense easily lasts long enough for them to be extremely visible after they scatter to try and hide.
The Chase ability is fun too, of course. Redirect is a very interesting spin on this kind of skillshot ability, with a little tightening up it should be both fun and strong.
Her voicelines are also pretty damn fun, which helps the overall experience!
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://youtu.be/4YylV9xqt9A?si=YnWR6etNPxvnw_mL
There ya go, this is proof enough of how egregious basekit Unbreakable is. That horrible PTB was just painful.
Keep in mind that back then, sabo was slower and HUD gave less info. It would be even worse nowadays.
If any kind of "solution" is made, then it must only come into effect in extreme cases (team-slugging, slugging for the 4k etc.). But slugging itself shouldn't become impossible. The Finisher Mori (as it is now) only makes the problem worse but could be easily tweaked to help somewhat reduce slugging for the 4k.
Back on that PTB, the actual basekit effect wasn't all that bad. The problem that PTB had was the things that orbited the basekit effect, like making Unbreakable (the perk) completely overpowered and somewhat-unrelated things like the generally unpopular older version of the Finishing Mori removing moris from perks and turning all mori offerings into BP offerings.
The basekit version of this effect took 45 seconds, which was honestly pretty reasonable. That PTB was not pleasant, but it doesn't necessarily mean the idea of a basekit Unbreakable is completely unworkable— just that the implementation they went with first had major flaws.
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Houndmaster isn't even in the conversation here, she's significantly better than the other two even with her bugs and inconsistencies.
It's probably Skull Merchant. For all Freddy's flaws, at least his power fundamentally functions for a basic gameplan, which Skull Merchant's doesn't after all the nerfs.
Still, Freddy is pretty weak, so maybe Merchant being able to hobble by on Undetectable builds would carry her to second spot. Hard to say.
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This is definitely the one issue I've had with the killer, it seems like Snug's programmed to drag towards where you were when you landed the dog hit?
Which can be kind of annoying if you have to walk around something and you choose the wrong direction relative to where Snug thinks you are, lol.
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The best downside to give it is an aura reveal.
If you use Shoulder the Burden on someone, the idea currently is that there's risk should the killer choose to chase you. A moderate aura reveal would give the killer an edge, as well as making it clear where the person who got the unhook is, but they'd still have to actually win the chase normally once that aura reveal wears off.
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Yeah? I've gotten quite a few.
Browns are significantly easier to get than greens.
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This video doesn't really disprove anything in the post you're responding to, it just proves that toolbox squads are broken.
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I would personally recommend not running all four slowdown perks, I find that has a nasty habit of backfiring sometimes.
Think about it for a second- with narrow exceptions, most slowdown perks require you to be getting downs or hooks in order to activate. If all your perks only do something after ending chases, with maybe only one like Deadlock being passive, that means one bad chase or any excess time spent trying to find a survivor puts you massively behind. Slowdown perks can't regress completed generators, so any gens done during that longer chase or searching downtime are lost for good, and most of them only damage one gen at a time so that's a lot of progression you can't undo if survivors are split up.
I'd recommend perks that help you find survivors quicker, end chases quicker, and generally minimise your downtime so your natural pressure can do the heavy lifting for you. The more you snowball by forcing survivors to react, the less they can do generators, and the easier time you'll have to keep going.
That's not to say you'll never have issues if you play this way, of course. Sometimes survivors are just better than you, and in cases where they aren't, toolboxes are still unbalanced- especially if everyone runs them. It will, however, help you with gen speeds in your average match, by a lot more than gambling on quad slowdowns.
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I've played a couple matches and so far she seems… pretty alright overall?
There's definitely a small issue with clunkiness, especially for getting her power to lock on to things. Pro tip I noticed- ignore the indicator for search mode and just use her finger to line up with generators, works way better. The dog feels like it sometimes misses when it shouldn't, but in fairness, it is a straight-line skillshot and not an AI minion, so maybe it should work like that.
However, the results seem pretty reasonable to me, based on what I could achieve. She has a solid spread of addons, some of which I found to be more useful than I expected, and the mixture of info, slowdown, and ranged damage that her power provides does feel like it'll be pretty worthwhile once you master her mechanics.
Overall, I like her, but she could feel smoother to approach. I don't anticipate she'll be popular even if that's tightened up, but that's fine, it's okay for some killers to just be for nicher audiences.
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A lot of newer perks lately have either been just flat out good, or designed in such a way that a simple buff can make them flat out good, so I don't think that's a good reason to call for fewer perks.
I would be interested in seeing fewer chapters, though, which would have a similar effect. More time to work on things that aren't the next few upcoming chapters would be a good thing for the game overall, though I don't see the business overlords signing off on it any time soon, sadly.
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It wouldn't be unbalanced, I don't think, but I also don't think it'd be the best buff to give it.
It being two chests allows you to stagger the time investment a little, so you can search/rummage the second time when you need it and not be at risk of the perk activating too early.
The bigger issue is the timer, which is slightly too long, and the fact that there aren't that many chests in the trial + you have to spend extra perk slots to find them if you want to reveal their aura since maps don't reveal them. If those things were adjusted the perk would be in a much better spot.
Plus, y'know, chests aren't worth searching so you're just activating Moment of Glory by doing it, there's that too.
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@BritneyMitch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845900#Comment_3845900
What perks do you think were strong from trevor, sable, alan, ellen, or nic? because not a single one of those survivors has a perk that is meta or even considered top half of perks in my book. Like I love some of the perks from these survs, especially nic, but I cant make a fair argument that any of these perks are strong.
I have a post about it further up, but to reiterate:
Trevor has Eyes of Belmont, but I do acknowledge that's the weakest on this list. Depending on your personal line for a strong perk, I could see someone reasonably considering Trevor an exception here as his best perk could be fairly seen as just "decent" rather than "strong".
Strength in Shadows is a top tier healing tool and a very strong perk. Wicked is also very strong, it gives very valuable information and has a potentially game-swinging secondary effect, though that secondary effect isn't reliable enough to be the reason to bring the perk in my opinion. Sable's actually the strongest overall here because two of her perks are just flat out strong with no caveats.
Alan has Champion of Light, a strong chase perk. I don't personally run every perk on this list, but I do run Sable's perks and Champion of Light a fair amount of the time, in different builds. They're just strong, no two ways about it.
Ellen has Light-Footed and Chemical Trap. Both of these perks have an asterisk - it's hard to know when Light-Footed is working for you and Chemical Trap requires a bit of game knowledge to use well - but neither of those asterisks directly affect their strength. Light-Footed is great for fooling the killer in loops that break line of sight and for running up to get a flashlight save, among other things, and Chemical Trap can put the killer in a lose/lose scenario on any tile where a dropped pallet can be played around.
Nic Cage has Dramaturgy, a strong chase perk which does admittedly have some slight risk attached from the RNG, and Plot Twist, a versatile healing tool. People kinda assumed that because Cage's perks were goofy, that means they're just meme perks, but even Scene Partner is in that "decent" camp I mentioned up above, his perks really aren't bad.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845981#Comment_3845981
it wasnt a mini stbfl, it was a full normal sized stbfl without a drawback.
actual stbfl+this addon made her into a 2 tap monster.
good riddance they nerfed it.
Yes, I said that. It's a mini STBFL now, at 10%. It wasn't before.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845984#Comment_3845984
Eyes of Belmont's primary effect is a worse version of old Dark Sense, a perk so middling it got reworked a while back.
Finesse, ok, I can agree with that
Strength in Shadows only seems good because the raw self-heal speed is better than most other sources of self-heal, because self-heal is garbo rn. IMO "good for a self heal perk" isn't the same thing as "good"
Champion of Light is decent I guess, but it did feel weird to have Shadowborn reworked into a perk that counteracted the CoL at the same time. This speaks to the frustration OP had - why does the solid survivor perk have to drop alongside a perk that neutralizes it? It makes it feel like survivors aren't allowed to have nice things.
Lightfooted is alright, but I can't agree that removing only one of half a dozen positional indicators for survivor reaches "great" status. Chem trap is solid if you get into a scenario where the killer has to break a god pallet, but I think calling it "great" is an overestimate of how reliable it is to get the chance to use effectively.
Dramaturgy, also I think fair to say it's good.
Troubleshooter imo doesn't do anything that isn't also accomplished by bringing bond + using proper camera angles in chase, as you can generally tell who's working on what gen with bond & killer movement a few seconds after a pallet drop is generally quite predictable, so imo it's middling rather than "good"
Eyes of Belmont also has a secondary effect, which elevates it above old Dark Sense. Like I said, it's the weakest on this list, but it opens up some genuinely useful synergies and builds. There's a middle ground between "genuinely strong" and "worthless", and at minimum, that's where Eyes of Belmont is. It's a good, useful, reliable perk.
Strength in Shadows, your take rests on the idea that self healing is bad right now, which it's not. It's not overpowered like it used to be, but medkits are solidly useful and Inner Strength is equally a very solid perk. Strength in Shadows is considerably better than both. It's a damn good perk.
For Champion of Light, I think that's a very restrictive and odd way of looking at things. Sure, this perk has one specific perk that counteracts it (plus Lightborn partially counteracting it), but what are the chances the killer you're facing actually has it? I run CoL myself and I can confidently say I haven't seen Shadowborn once. That leaves it just a damn good perk in realistic matches.
Light-Footed removes the most important indicator in a lot of scenarios, which is why it's genuinely a great perk. Hard to know you're getting value, to be sure, but the value that's on the table is really useful. For Chemical Trap, it doesn't have to be a god pallet, just a safe one. Any pallet in the entire game that you can play while it's dropped is a viable spot for Chemical Trap, and using it leaves the killer in a lose/lose where they have to either waste time building Bloodlust or waste time catching back up with a Hindered slow.
Troubleshooter has the benefit of having multiple effects in one, and without the range restriction of Bond. It's on the weaker end of this list but it's unambiguously a good perk, more information is better than less information- and even if it's the same information, "as good as another very good perk" doesn't make it bad.
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I don't think it's strictly worse. For one, if I remember the PTB correctly, you get an unlimited number of heals from it, you can charge the perk back up again after you've used it once.
Also, don't syringes take 24 seconds? It's affected by the penalty from the medkit that activates it. Still quicker, of course, but still.
It's a bit closer to Solidarity, which lets you reset with two injured survivors quicker than normal. The differences being, you don't need to also be injured when you charge Clean Break which makes it easier to use at different points of the match, and Clean Break allows you to skip any downtime for getting yourself healed since you can just be tapped and go on your way to do generators while you're being healed.
It's a niche perk, to be sure, but it does have some legitimate applications. It being repeatable makes it comparable to syringes alone, even not considering everything else.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845900#Comment_3845900
What are those "genuinely strong" perks
Trevor: Eyes of Belmont. This is the weakest perk on this little list, but I still think its base effect and the synergies it has leave it being genuinely good overall.
Lara: Finesse unambiguously, that's obviously a strong perk. I would argue Hardened is underrated too, but to be fair, I did say "genuinely strong" so it may not reach that specific bar.
Sable: Strength in Shadows is the best source of self healing by a wide margin, it's crazy good. Wicked is also very good, but primarily as a means of evading the killer and stopping yourself from being opportunistically tunnelled. The basement-Deliverance effect has high potential, but isn't reliable, that's not why the perk is strong.
Alan: Champion of Light. I feel like his other two perks being so undertuned left people glossing over this one? But seriously, it's a damn good chase perk.
Ellen: Light-Footed and Chemical Trap. Both have an asterisk, but neither asterisk is about their strength- just that Light-Footed can be kind of hard to tell how much it's doing in the moment, and Chemical Trap needs careful decision making about where and when to use it. Both are still very good perks.
Nic Cage: Dramaturgy is a solid chase perk that has some slight RNG elements that could either make it better or riskier, and Plot Twist is a strong and versatile perk.
Gabriel: Obviously he released with Made For This, but Troubleshooter has been a genuinely good perk since release too.
I think cutting things off there is appropriate for "recent", that's back to well over a year ago. Minus the DnD characters and maybe Trevor based on your personal line for "strong", all of those characters have good choices.
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@Dustin said:
I didn't play the PTB - what was this addon?
When a survivor's held by the dog, it shortens basic attack cooldowns against them, like a mini Save The Best For Last.
I say mini because that's true now, the number is currently/will be when the killer launches 10%. On the PTB, the number was 40%, which was totally busted and absolutely was going to be nerfed, lol.
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I've been thinking about this since I saw that Treacherous Crows isn't getting changes, and I kinda came to a conclusion I didn't expect. Let me play devil's advocate for a moment here-
The problems with Treacherous Crows aren't really Treacherous Crows itself. There's a conversation to be had about the consistency of the killer being the one to startle crows, to be sure, but the base effect is very strong- passive aura reading on the killer for the whole team is a damn good effect for a perk.
Where the problems come in is the Invocation framework. There's been a lot of feedback - some valid, some less so - about how punishing and restrictive the requirements and downsides of Invocation perks are… and none of that was adjusted on this PTB. If BHVR were to act on the problems with Treacherous Crows in response to this PTB, they'd be throwing fundamental changes to a perk type onto live without testing, which will also affect Weaving Spiders, which wasn't something included in this PTB's patch notes.
I'm not saying BHVR do plan on testing Invocation changes soon. In fact, I'm pretty confident they aren't. But I would say that actually making positive changes to Treacherous Crows after it hit this PTB would require another PTB to be done properly.
Not to defend BHVR from putting it into a testing environment with the current Invocation framework, mind. This was a great opportunity to re-evaluate the Invocation perk type and that opportunity wasn't taken. I'm strictly talking about responding to feedback from this PTB in particular, here.
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Not that I agree with the change Shoulder The Burden got either, but it's extremely dramatic to claim that survivors don't get strong perks because of it, imo.
The most recent releases have all had at least one genuinely strong perk, except for the DnD chapter. That one's an outlier, those perks were only okay.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
You still need to patrol, just decide what gens you wont contest such as the single ones in an isolated corner, then you have a smaller area to patrol and pressure.
Killers who don't protect gens tend to lose, the ones who are very conscious of where gens are at feel like they are all over you constantly and it creates a lot of pressure.
It's not the generators and especially not the patrol that creates the pressure, it's chasing survivors.
Patrolling generators implies walking between one to another, and every generator you walk to that a survivor isn't currently working on leaves every survivor able to do generators freely for as long as it takes you to walk to the next generator, rinse and repeat.
Obviously, there's a small degree of gen defence that's necessary for playing well, but you don't need to be walking between them or heavily focusing on damaging them. You just need to know which ones have the most progress, because chasing the survivor working on that one gives you the most time to finish your chase and set your pressure up.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844225#Comment_3844225
What is the first call? Besides using certain perks, what are you suggesting the killer to do?
Well, first of all, I'm not suggesting putting perks aside here. They're very useful for learning how to do this because they take some of the guesswork out of the learning process. I'm not saying they're necessary, but they're very useful and I'd definitely recommend using them.
Beyond that, I'm talking about game sense for tracking. Once you hit a certain point, even without perks, you can have a pretty damn accurate idea of where all the survivors are. Even if there's some risk of the survivors not being there when you go check, acting on that information instead of patrolling generators is going to work out considerably better for you.
So, for examples: At the start of the match, you can discern where the survivors probably are on most maps, because of spawn logic. You'd go straight to them instead of starting to walk around the generators, that's an example I think most people agree with.
While you're playing, you can collect information on the survivors through the various basekit tools the killer's given for it. Distant scratch marks, crows flying, the occasional loud noise notification, any power-specific info, or frankly just seeing them while you're chasing someone else. It's important to note that I'm not saying to start looking for those tells when you next need to chase someone- I'm saying take stock of them throughout the game to keep track of where survivors probably are, to minimise the downtime spent searching once you've finished the chase you're in.
Obviously you can't do this perfectly all the time in every game, but the same is true of any other tip/playstyle/strategy you'd employ in any game. It is the ideal to be shooting for, though, especially when amplified with the tracking perks of your choice.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845164#Comment_3845164
i am just saying that this version of skull merchant is fairely accurate representation of the skull merchant in thread. you get bad rewards for claw traps and you rely on survivors to play terribly bad for trapping to trigger outside of chase.
strangely enough, SM is indifferent if you follow the survivors at loops and drop drones. the haste bonuses exist only for manual scans and add-on that buff up scans equate to similar levels of power to old original SM(Vital processing unit+Strobes).
So, I'll say this one more time and if it isn't acknowledged I'm not going to respond again, apologies for the harsh tone but it's pretty necessary:
I did not suggest weakening Claw Traps or scans in any way in that thread, except for removing Deep Wound. That's the only weakening thing I suggested, and I suggested nothing surrounding the Haste. There was no other suggestion for weakening the rewards for scans or Claw Traps.
No part of that thread is represented in the changes BHVR made, because BHVR chose to actually weaken Skull Merchant's rewards, which is not what I suggested outside of Deep Wound, which she currently still has even. BHVR didn't even weaken the one reward I did suggest changing. That's why I'm making threads like this, because I think the changes she got were bad, and don't represent fixes for any of the issues I've consistently been talking about since her rework dropped.
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@bjorksnas said:
Something I think should be added to this just to make playing against her feel better which while I can't balance out with buffs because I don't know enough about playing as her assume someone else talented at that did. I think making a hacked drone be unable to be recalled for a brief duration lets say ~15s, and it removes 1 stack of lock on would be a good change.
While I'm not necessarily against hacking drones removing Lock On stacks, in theory - I had a thread about it a while ago - I've come to think that the smarter decision would be to lean in to the stacks being completely avoidable in the first place. Empower that, and keep the potential removal of stacks as a change later on down the line if she needs it after things settle.
As for the drones being unable to be recalled, if you're hacking a drone you want her to recall it. What purpose would making that impossible for a few seconds serve? Genuine question, I'm not sure what the goal there would be.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845151#Comment_3845151
by try hard-, rely on survivor to be bad at the video game.
I'm not rehashing a few-months-old thread with you, man, especially if you can barely remember what we actually were talking about in it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844895#Comment_3844895
no. the topic was about making skull merchant not get global haste. Our conversion was that you did not like that skull merchant was getting haste rewards through out the map for smart drone placement. The removal of lock-on was an additional change on top of what your initial proposal was. not only did you want trap rewards being worse, you also wanted SAFETY nets in case you DO play bad on top of that. that is why thread was comical.
current skull merchant no longer gains global combat haste for successfully landing traps and ever since that change, her kill-rate on nightlight has dropped rock bottom. The developer changes are mirror to what you proposed in the thread.
Skull merchant is no longer rewarded for being trap killer. As a result, she is less fun to play. as mentioned in my previous post, i don't she needs any additional changes other than revert for whenever her rework shows up. if there would be additional changes, it would be improving her add-on's. nothing more.
Went back and reread the thread, since I remembered it was one of mine. We were talking about Claw Traps, you're misremembering. I even state multiple times in that thread, part of the reward she'd still get with that old proposal was global Haste, she just would have to try harder to get global Claw Traps.
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@Boons123 said:
Regarding disabling Dorn, I would like to add a 6 second cooldown after Dorn is restored. The reason is that disabling Dorn is meaningless and will not really affect her. What happens is that she will throw another Dorn in its place as if nothing happened.
With my suggestion she will have to choose either to restore Dorn but not be able to deploy another Dorn for 6 seconds or let Dorn fix itself after a long time.
Her having to go back and replace the drone is exactly what you'd be wanting if you're hacking drones.
I do think it can feel a little unrewarding, but you don't hack drones to keep drones away from her. You hack drones so that she has to go out of her way to replace it.
Which also means, you have to think about the drone. If it's in a useless area like hovering over a generator or stuck in a corner after she just used it for Undetectable, don't bother hacking it because she won't care. If it's in a good structure or loop, those are the ones you'd hack, because she clearly wants those available for chases. In the latter case, the drone being off for longer would be nice, to make the killer have to recall it and replace it more often.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844890#Comment_3844890
but none of that would've affected her Haste.
right…
I mean… yeah?
Back in that thread we were still talking about her getting scans, which is what gives her Haste. Removing the Lock On stack by hacking a drone afterwards wouldn't have changed that she got the Haste when the scan happened.
It's also not even in this list, I was entertaining that as an idea because it was a popular talking point at the time. If they did choose to make Lock On stacks removable, that's still the best way to do it, but I'd rather lean in on stacks being avoidable rather than removable.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844816#Comment_3844816
when i last spoke to for how skull merchant was problematic for the game. you stated that skull merchant should not get any global haste and that survivors hacking drones should remove lock-on stacks.
While they did not implement 2nd change. they did effectively implement 1st change by removing haste from her kit and granting haste when turning the drone.
your last person that i would think would disagree with her changes because exact changes you proposed pre-nerf were exact changes that developer did in fact implement. while i am not shocked that the killer is terrible, i am puzzled by these changes.
in any case, skull merchant does not need extensive changes to her base-kit. She need revert to how she used to be. She was a good spot prior to the changes. The only aspect i would change on old skull merchant is buff her add-on's, mainly the iri add-on that used to grant 25% stronger haste on claw traps but reduce battery life by -50% & Low powered mode which makes her drones have stationary laser. Lastly the Super charger add-on that increases claw battery life by 15%.
the way i wanted these 3 add-on changed was following
Expired battery:
Increases the total haste bonus by 2% when detected on the radar.
Increases battery life by 25%.
Supercharged:
Increased battery life by 25%(From 15%)
Low powered mode:
Reduces cooldown by 25% when placing drone.
at least now, i can be patient until Skull merchant receives a rework that reverts her changes.
Eh? I've never been against global Haste at all, what are you talking about?
Oh wait, I think I remember that thread, but I never talked about her not getting global Haste, I'm pretty sure. I remember saying that cross-map Claw Traps becoming harder (but still possible) would be fair, and that generally speaking survivors probably shouldn't be tripping drones randomly if they're paying attention outside of the very specific context of the killer hiding traps in those neat spots where the ring is hidden, but none of that would've affected her Haste.
Anyway, Merchant was in a pretty good spot prior to the nerfs, save for specifically the lack of information given to survivors making it very hard to learn her power + counterplay just by playing, and a few small issues like drones overlapping + the arbitrary Deep Wound. That's why I'm suggesting only changing those small things, and nothing super dramatic. If you look, most of these changes are just QoL things that'd make learning her power easier with only a handful of genuine nerfs/buffs.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
Big read, Ill read it up when i get home. :)
Also, do one for Trapper plz. <3
Honestly, I probably could, I think about poor Evan quite a lot. He was my first killer main back when I started playing, I do have a big soft spot for the guy.
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@Perrin3088 said:
It sounds like your promoting creating a self crutch with reliance on aura reading perks and survivor altruistic
Your mindset is what creates killers that insist on a perk meta they 'have to follow, when those perks are meant to aid or circumvent basic gameplay loops (like searching for survivors) and patrolling gens gives alot of information on survivor locations by showing what gens have progress and where scratch marks are. It also let's you identify strong loops and map locations without meta gaming.
The post feels like it was written by a vet with everything unlocked that has lost sight of how to win without reliance on perks, and thus has lost touch with the new player experience.
It doesn't have to be perks, but I do support using them while building these skills because it does make doing that easier.
There are ways of directly tracking survivors that don't rely on perks, and separately, there are quite a few different kinds of perks that do this. You can play in this manner while cycling through perks and never building a reliance on any one thing, if you wanted to.
Patrolling generators is something newer players are going to end up doing more often, and that's okay, they're newer and they're learning. My point is that what they're learning should be how to avoid the unnecessary downtime of walking between generators and instead just go directly to their target.
My post is aimed primarily at killer players on these forums and elsewhere who think that the generators are their primary concern, in that they need to be patrolled and defended. I think it's worth pointing out that ideally you want to be trying to not have to patrol generators, while keeping it as a last resort option if you've got nothing else, and that defending generators is a very specific tool for a very specific job, not part of the killer's primary gameplay loop.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844180#Comment_3844180
the worst thing you can say is that aura reads fail to persuade the killer not to camp
Yes this is almost exactly what I said in my original post. There's nothing preventing people from using these auras in camping and tunneling situations also.
I think the only perk I can think of that does would be grim embrace, because the obsession aura only shows after all 4 survivors are hooked. The aura read is gated behind the requirement of spreading hooks. But the aura read is honestly not why people run grim either.
I may be forgetting one, but none of the other aura perks or add-ons have a similar requirement. And the BBQ incentive to spread hooks was removed.
Right, but when they're used in camping and tunnelling scenarios, they aren't actually doing anything, so it's not really relevant to bring them up in that context.
They don't make camping any stronger, which was the original claim, they just don't really affect things either way.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844232#Comment_3844232
I get that, but my point is that while you shouldn't patrol as a habit (yes, of course, just standing around the same gen cluster wastes time except in specific scenarios), there ARE reasons you check gens and it's definitely not just "as a last resort".
I mean, those reasons are the last resort.
They'd be because you had to drop chase and don't know where anyone else is, or you got a hook and you don't know where anyone else is, and so on- patrolling generators is only something you'd do if you don't know where anyone else is, and there are a lot of options available to you for knowing where survivors are.
If all those options fail you at once - which can happen! - then your last resort is generator patrol. What it shouldn't be is your basic gameplan and the thing you default to most of the time, because you almost certainly have better options available. Making a point of crafting your build and gameplan around keeping track of survivors is so much better than patrolling generators that I think it's totally fair to say generator patrol should only be done when you can't act on better information.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844225#Comment_3844225
So how do YOU know where to go to find people at the start then? Guess? Go in the direction of crows? Lethal Pursuer?
No. You go the direct opposite of where you spawned, usually towards gens.
I rest my case.
At the start specifically, you go the opposite direction to where you spawned, towards where you suspect the survivors spawned.
I mean, I run Lethal Pursuer a lot, but without it that's what I do.
What I don't do is start making a loop of the generators, because that's wasting time. I go towards where I strongly suspect the survivors to already be, not searching each gen in turn. At the start of the game, it's painfully obvious why you wouldn't do that; you already have a really good idea where the survivors are likely to be.
My point is that the rest of the trial is like that too, you just have to do the legwork to have that information instead of it being pseudo-guaranteed because of spawn logic. If you already know where a survivor is, patrolling generators would be a waste of time, and you have a lot of control over gaining that information… ergo, relying on patrolling generators is a waste of time, and a last resort you'd only turn to if your other methods of finding survivors have left you without information in that specific moment.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843930#Comment_3843930
Last resort? It's the Killer's basekit tool. Part of several basekit tools Killers have, like crows and unhook notifications.
Fortunately, most of the time, Survivors make it very easy to find them.
Yes, last resort.
It's something you can use but should never be your first call, because the other options are so much more effective and less time consuming on average that you're really leaving value on the table if you choose to patrol generators instead.
Any generator you walk to that does not result in a chase is more time you're spending without pressuring survivors, and survivors who aren't being pressured are more than likely going to do generators. Patrolling generators is a good way to lose against halfway efficient teams.
If you have no other information, patrolling generators is a good last resort, but in those scenarios you should really be asking yourself what you could've done/brought to have information at the time you needed it.
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@Azarath415_YT said:
The purpose of the tip is to let newer players know that since the generators are the main objective of the survivors, it makes sense to go to their objectives to start a chase and all that. Obviously everyone at some point knows not to go in a huge circle around the map to find survivors and if you genuinely think killers are just that stupid and you're that upset over a tip in the game that literally no one is gonna read anyway, then you need to hop off the game and play something else. Sure obviously the main objective of the killer is to kill the survivors, but how do you expect them to find survivors? Around generators and random tiles they happen to pass by. So while it may not be the best tip in your opinion, it's still a good tip for beginner players to have an idea on how to find survivors. No one ever said that patrolling generators is their main objective and you don't gotta act like everyone ever did say that. And killers should be kicking generators because it slows the game down which gives the killer an easier time and also more time to kill the survivors. I highly doubt you've ever touched killer a day in your life if you genuinely think a killer has that mindset and they should just never go near generators or kick them. Like what do you expect killers to do? Give you a free escape? Obviously not. They're gonna kill you whether you like it or not and you will accept it
I'm not actually mad at the tooltip, I've said that a few times, it's just a way of framing my argument.
My argument is more in response to people I've seen talk about generators as though they're supposed to be patrolling them and defending them jealously. I play killer a fair amount myself, which is why I think the comments I see dotted around the place could do with responding to overall— hence the post.
I've also, pretty obviously, never said the killer shouldn't touch generators at all. I made sure to say the opposite in the post- sometimes it's a good idea! But, it's crucial to remember that stalling the generators is not your objective and it's very, very easy to fall into the trap of paying too much attention to generators instead of your real objective. You generally don't want to kick a generator unless you have something in your build to improve the action, or you've just downed someone in the area so you might as well. Very few scenarios otherwise would be worth it.
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@E2B2 said:
I mean yeah, info perks are an alternative to patrolling generators. Understanding where survivors are is a thing without info perks anyway, and survivors will often go to generators. Patrolling generators is just part of gamesense and understanding how survivors move around the map, which is where you find the survivors when you're immediately trying to find a chase. And applying pressure isn't just about chase for every killer, it's often better to go toward a generator to stop it being done than it is to finish a chase and get hooks. That only really works entirely for killers like Spirit, Blight, Nurse, etc who can finish chases very quickly and apply pressure across the map just by existing. Use info perks to patrol gens less if you want, or just understand that survivors will use their downtime to do gens, and be there to stop them when they have it.
I disagree, I think if you're ever in a position where you are just walking from generator to generator and hoping to find someone, you are doing something wrong. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but the next step after finding yourself in that position is to identify why and see what you could've done to avoid it.
The thing that gives survivors their downtime as a team is when you're not chasing someone and you don't have someone on the hook. That's what pressure is: Survivors who react to your actions with something other than generator repair. If you're just walking between generators, the generators you're not currently next to are being worked on, and you are gaining nothing.
If, instead, you already know where the survivors are through a variety of means including info perks, you can go straight to the survivor and start your pressure immediately, no time spent not doing anything of note.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843991#Comment_3843991
So where should I go to find survivors, if not generators?
My point is that tracking survivors directly is a stronger gameplan by far than just making a patrol around generators to hopefully stumble across one.
Info perks are the easiest way of doing this, but there are basekit things to use as well. Crows flying and scratch marks on walls are the biggest ones, but situationally you've got loud noise notifications as well. Plus, y'know, visually seeing them while you're in chase and making your way there after the chase ends.
Until you get to that level of mastery, though, info perks. Info perks are how you get that information. Walking aimlessly around generators is a bad idea, going directly to the generators you know are being worked on is a good idea.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844079#Comment_3844079
Let's use BBQ as an example. Since my point isn't about quantity, but about how these perks are being used or even intended.
For myself, I run BBQ and hook a survivor. It shows me the auras of survivors farther away, and I know generally where to go to interrupt them on gens to keep map pressure rolling. Especially if I see 2 people working on a gen I know I can apply the most pressure by going that direction to say hello.
This is what I feel the perk was intended for, and was largely used for in the past (pre-6.1). This is also what I suspect the person I replied to means by "what survivors wanted" since everyone gets to share in the chase/pressure, and has a generally more well balanced game (some chase, some gens, some recovery, and tangible BP gains), while the killer is actually applying pressure.
But let's take the same scenario for another player, like how people claim to play killer on the forums: they hook, see two people on a gen with BBQ. Instead, they decide "that gen is gone, I'm staying here" and camp the hook at 11m. Inevitably, or eventually, the survivors do finish that gen since there's no pressure, and the killer knows exactly where they are coming from. In most cases that will be the direction they approach the hook, so the killer waits to interrupt them there. This is effectively equivalent to "holding a corner" in a shooter game.
And once the unhook actually happens, since the killer has applied no pressure, they also tend to decide to tunnel the unhooked survivor, side "gens fly" (and the killer has done nothing to stop them).
Now, the perk or aura read of BBQ isn't problematic, the perk itself is fine. But the mindset and how it can be used is the issue, which is my point to the person I replied to.
Although this assessment varies perk to perk and the use cases.
You also have the added problem of "mind gaming during chase" that they specifically mention is mostly deleted or nearly impossible in some cases by using something like new zanshin or weave attunement, and predator is literally a killer second chance perk. So survivors actually doing well or "winning" a chase can be completely impossible, or undone by these effects.
So someone saying "survivors should be happy" about these aura reads is missing the mark entirely. These perks aren't incentivizing the kind of gameplay he's portraying them to, at least they don't require it. Not that people can't use them for healthy play, but people won't if there's no downside either.
I can sort of see the argument you're making here, but it's not as though BBQ is actually either incentivising or improving your camping there. At best it might cause the killer to make the decision, but after they make the decision, BBQ does nothing but offer a very vague direction they're probably coming from, maybe, depending on the map layout.
It doesn't tell the killer when the rescuer is coming, it doesn't tell the killer how many are coming, it doesn't allow the killer to ambush someone rounding a corner or crouching behind a loop, it doesn't even tell the killer where everyone is so who knows, maybe the last survivor is the one coming for the save.
The tunnelling point is irrelevant here, since that's literally unaffected by BBQ or pretty much any other aura read in this scenario.
Even at most, the worst thing you can say is that aura reads fail to persuade the killer not to camp, if they're inclined to do it anyway they're gonna do it. You could just as easily make the argument that a killer who doesn't have any way of seeing survivors after a hook will just sit there to try and interrupt someone going for the save because they're not secure in their ability to find someone- if a player is inclined to take the cheap cheese strategy, they are equally likely to treat any given situation as incentive to do it. The only worthwhile situation is to weaken that cheese strategy, rather than attack the things those players are incidentally also using while doing it.
Since aura reading doesn't empower camping and improve its effectiveness in any real way, it's not really a relevant factor when discussing that issue. Same for tunnelling, albeit with a few slightly greyer areas.