jesterkind
jesterkind
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844066#Comment_3844066
Are there any restrictions for the killer to not just simply use these tools to tunnel and camp more effectively?
No, there aren't any. Whatsoever.
So instead of "hey, the killer can use these perks to spread pressure and chase multiple people per match! That also gives survivors a more well rounded game!"
We get this: "well, the killer knows where everyone is and is just standing 11m from the hook, and can also see exactly where to cut off the rescue attempt. And even once the rescue occurs, the killer can always find the unhooked survivor and tunnel them. That survivor can't escape without drastic measures against the aura reads".
What perks are going to give them that information in that scenario, though?
When they first get the hook, sure, there's some there, but those perks won't show the killer how to cut off the rescue attempt if it happens more than a couple seconds after the hook.
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@Mr_K said:
Survivors repair gens.
Killers need to find survivors.
Where are survivors? Oh yeah, near gens.
Go gen to gen to find survivors.
Don't read more into tooltips other than they state the obvious.
I'm realising I really shouldn't have brought up the tooltip at all, now everyone thinks that's the focus as opposed to the people who talk about patrolling generators…
But still, "go gen to gen to find survivors" is the thing I'm saying people shouldn't do, regardless of where they got the idea. The tooltip was just phrased in a way that helped my point because it talked about finding survivors, which was the angle I was taking too: That's the worst way of doing it and should be a last resort, not a basic gameplan.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
This is kind of a weird post. The hint text doesn't say to kick gens and ignore survivors, it says patrolling gens can help you find survivors, which is true and useful. There are other ways to find survivors as well, and those are learned in time.
I think you're spending a lot of time arguing against a straw man you've created.
I'm not actually mad at the tooltip, it's just a good thing to point to for what I'm talking about, which is players who think they actually need to patrol gens.
I think that taking the tooltip literally would lead to what I'm describing, but I don't think that's the sole reason for all the people who currently act that way. It's just something to frame the conversation so people know what I'm talking about.
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It'd be a very neat perk, but I don't think it'd be appropriate for a basekit mechanic.
I actually made a post a while back about how I want this to be what Spine Chill does, so it's an option available to everyone at the start but still requires a perk slot.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
There ARE reasons to check gens but yes, especially on some Killers ( *coughLOWMOBILITYKILLERScough* ), it's better to disengage and use them solely to find Survivors, maybe kick if need be. Knowing when to disengage is very important. Why else do you think Killers use stuff like Pain Res and Grim Embrace?
Even using them as a way of finding survivors is a last resort when you don't have any other method of finding survivors, because every other method is so much better that you should be trying to avoid relying on generator patrol when possible.
Disengaging is important, but part of knowing when is knowing when getting into another chase would be fast enough that it's worth doing. Disengaging from a bad chase to spend half a minute or more looking for another survivor is not actually a particularly good trade, in my opinion.
That's my overall point, you don't focus on the generators, you focus on your objectives directly. Generators can be a useful tool, but not the primary tool or concern.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
I mean, unless you play killer with very fast chases, you need to worry about gens, there are simply gens worth defending.
You shouldn't try to defend all gens, but I don't think not defending any is better.- don't chase survivors into areas with no gens unless you down them very fast or need them for perk (Grim/pain res)
- don't chase a survivor which won't give you any resource in next 20 seconds (injury, down, pallet)
Knowing when to drop chase is way more important than saying don't protect your gens imo…
So, I want to restate for a moment that I'm not saying to completely ignore generators entirely. It's important to keep in mind for the rest of my points.
From there, I don't really disagree with your points, but it really doesn't have much to do with "protecting gens", so to speak. You shouldn't chase survivors away from areas with generators, but that's because you'd then be too far away from the other survivors, meaning more downtime before you can get back into the action and less opportunity to steer the chase into generators being worked on.
It's not that you need to stop the generators being done, it's that your objectives concentrate around the generators. That's why you'd want to be in proximity to them, not to defend or protect them. Like I said, the generators matter in that they're a timer, but they're not your objective.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843810#Comment_3843810
What choice? To lose? I've already explained this:
Whether you're talking about high level players, or even average players at this point, if it's not a mismatch (one side knows what they're doing while the other doesn't), then the survivors should win by default. The math says that killers need to be hooking someone every 30 seconds or so, to kill them before they do the gens and get out. You can only come close to that time efficiency by tunneling and camping, meaning that just chasing without tunneling and camping, mathematically, should be an automatic loss. I can't explain it simpler than that.
What maths are you referring to there? That's a pretty extraordinary claim, I apologise if you put the numbers higher up and I missed it but I'd very much like to see how you reached that conclusion.
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@beater15 said:
"Generators aren't the objective" - they're literally the main objective, and patrolling a 3 gen can be a huge win condition. But yes it's not good to generalize this
They are not. They are the survivor's main objective, they are not the killer's.
The killer's main objective is the survivors. Your focus is on them, the generators are a secondary concern only in that they're effectively a timer for how long you have to complete your objective.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I understand the thread but generator locations are a pretty popular hangout spot for survivors 🤔
Like I said above, you are very likely to be walking to a generator when you're initiating a chase, but walking between them as your main method of tracking survivors is asking to lose.
Ideally, you should already know where survivors are through other means, whether that's basekit means like spying a crow flying in the distance or catching a scratch mark against the wall, or from information perks giving you more precise information. If you are absolutely stumped, patrolling generators will help, but part of honing killer skill is avoiding ever being in that position to begin with.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843778#Comment_3843778
because of 400% regression speed. generator regression needs buffs because it is currently noob-trap kick gens unless you build entire build around kicking gens.
the newbie tip in game for patrolling gens is a tip for new player to find chases because a lot of new players don't know how to find any chases.
I do know it's for new players, but I think it builds bad habits. I think it tells new players "the way you find survivors is by patrolling gens, so do that every match to find your chases".
I'm not really necessarily blaming just that one tooltip for this, it's just a good thing to point to for framing my argument. I'm telling those players here myself, you should be tracking survivors directly and just going straight to them, not wandering around their objectives without a plan.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843781#Comment_3843781
"Patrolling" is probably a misnomer. The point is, you should be going from chase to chase. But those chases should ideally start at a generator, not near killer shack, or an area of the map where survivors have completed generators.
There's definitely the possibility of some confusion in language, so I don't mind clarifying a little:
To me, patrolling generators means walking from one generator to the next in the hopes of finding a survivor, or to delay their progress without committing to a chase. Either of those is a bad idea, and should be avoided where possible, excepting for very narrow circumstances.
If you're just walking directly to one specific generator that you know (or strongly suspect, at least) a survivor is on with the specific aim of starting a chase, that's a different thing entirely.
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@Reinami said:
If you start a chase with a survivor hit them, and they immediately run to a loop that contains killer shack into jungle gym into main building and its away from where someone is that you just hooked and away from generators, you are wasting your time and should go back to patrolling generators.
The reason most killers lose games is not because they are patrolling gens, but because they are wasting too much time in chases. The first thing you should be doing as soon as you load into the map is identifying where the strong loops are (usually near main buildings and killer shacks) and then trying to chase survivors away from those areas, and not to them.
I mostly agree about kicking gens. Generally you should really only kick gens if you have perks that are making that useful like Pop/Nowhere to Hide/Unforeseen etc.
Going "back" to patrolling gens sounds like you were doing that to begin with, which you shouldn't be.
Part of the decision making surrounding dropping chase is if you have another chase you can get into quickly. If you're dropping a chase that'd only take longer than you'd like and you're instead wandering around generators without achieving anything for the same amount of time, you're in a worse position than if you just took the chase. At least at the end of the chase you've used up resources and gained a hook- patrolling generators gives you nothing.
As I said in the post, patrolling generators is a last resort for when you don't have anything else, and I think killer players as a whole need to understand that avoiding that last resort is part of getting better at killer. Knowing where survivors are likely to be based on prior information and game sense is something that separates bad killers from great ones— and I'm not even saying I can do that wholly without perks, but I know that it's something I could and probably should improve if I want to get better.
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@Lixadonna said:
Who needs to patrol anymore when Killers have 500 Aura Perks to easily find Survivors.
Patrolling gens is a bad thing to just do by default even without aura perks, that's the point I'm making.
Aura perks make things easier, but they aren't The Reason that you don't "need" to patrol gens. Patrolling gens is not active or efficient gameplay either way.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843680#Comment_3843680
What you and @jesterkind aren’t accepting is that a regression META and Skull Merchant immediately after taught us that gens are really the target. It makes sense though because survivors will eventually lose to attrition anyway if you whittle their limited resources down. You don’t even have to commit to them; just destroy their resources and continue surveilling gens.
The problem with that is that we are not in the gen-kick meta anymore, and 3-genning has been severely weakened on everyone on top of Skull Merchant in particular especially not being able to do it effectively anymore.
If you try and take that strategy into the current state of the game, you're setting yourself up to lose and in a lot of cases generators are going to go quicker because you can't be everywhere at once and the further gens from you are free to be worked on.
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I have some grievances with most of the things said here, but I want to focus on the one I think is the most off the mark because I think it's the kind of thing that should be talked about more on the forums.
I want to look at point 5: "Killers bear the responsibility for Game Pacing".
So, there's a couple things to say, and I'll acknowledge something upfront- you do neglect to factor in the other things survivors have to juggle, they don't actually just get to focus on their one objective, but those things are reactive to the killer setting the pace. In general that point isn't wrong, it is the killer's job to set the pace and force reactions- that's what "pressure" is for the killer, after all.
However, you list some things that are really, really, really not the killer's objective. I'd kind of hesitate to call any of these "the objective" because I think that muddies the water too much, but I'm not really nitpicking about word choice here, I want to talk about the last two: "preventing unhooks" and "patrolling generators".
You should not be patrolling generators. That is a damn good way to lose. Your actual objective is to kill the survivors- they're the part that matters, not the generators. If all you're doing is harassing the survivors away from their objective, you aren't progressing your objective, and you can't be everywhere at once- the survivors are going to win that because you can't stall them out completely. The thing you should be doing is forcing survivors to do something other than generator repair, which is why chasing and hooking actually are your minute-to-minute objectives… and why I think "preventing unhooks" shouldn't be on your list.
Sometimes, that is a valid thing to do, I'm not saying never do it… but if you're sticking around the hook to prevent unhooks, you're leaving two survivors unoccupied, which means they're gonna do gens. You're giving up map pressure, by not capitalising on the opportunity a hook gets you. Be more active, go chase someone immediately after a hook, you'll get a ton more pressure that way.
The only time you should ever be patrolling generators is if you don't know where a survivor is, and that is a situation you should be trying very, very, very hard to avoid because it's bad for you. Patrolling generators is an absolute last resort for when you have no other ideas for where a survivor might be. Similarly, preventing unhooks should only be done when the survivors are giving you pressure by doing it- AKA, when there's two or three of them trying to crowd the hook, or doing that weird awkward dance where they stand just far enough away that you can't hit them and refuse to commit. If you do either of those things by default, gens are going to fly and you are probably going to lose.
This is also why point 1 isn't true, by the way. If you're playing your objective efficiently, you don't need to rely on cheese strats like that to win. Not that they'll never be appropriate, but that they shouldn't be your first resort because that's shooting yourself in the foot.
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May I ask what you're struggling with in particular?
Both sides have some pretty damn good spreads of perks these days, so if something's giving you some trouble in your survivor matches, there's probably a perk or two that could help.
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Man, it would be such a shame if there's still that same-killer restriction whenever Ghostface is allowed in 2v8. Even if they have to make a special exception just for him, it'd be so good to have two Ghostfaces in a trial.
If you can't get the Scream license, make it yourself…
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I don't hate this. It's certainly not better than what we had before the recent nerfs, because that was honestly a really well designed power with just a couple flaws to tighten up, but I do appreciate that this rework has a clear vision for how she'd be supposed to play afterwards.
This'd turn her effectively into a pure stealth killer instead of a hybrid, and I think there's some merit to that. It fits thematically and stealth is a fun way of playing in general, so it's not just executing her again.
I think if you wanted this to be workable, though, the stealth would have to linger for longer than three seconds. Hypothetically, if she maintains her web, she should be really hard to track, because this power design's counterplay would actually be hacking drones unlike her current version.
It is worth pointing out, though, this version of Skull Merchant would actually be pretty uninteractive and lacking in chase counterplay, which are the complaints people currently have. Changing her so that those complaints are actually true really wouldn't go over very well.
Then again, nothing anyone could do with this killer would go over well, so maybe that shouldn't be a concern lol
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It's only four health states if the killer is actually getting hit by Decisive Strike, though, and that only happens if they're tunnelling.
Isn't it good for the combo to be double the usual amounts of health only in that situation?
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I disagree with you about the Blood Amber, I think it's mostly fine and the issue is that it's the only thing making Keys even slightly comparable to the good items like Flashlights and Medkits.
No argument about Toolboxes. I'd love the gen repair speed to be reworked into an entirely different effect, and the various kinds of Toolboxes just condensed a little bit. We don't need as many as there are, it's arbitrary clutter imo.
As an aside, wasn't the Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe changed when Medkits were? Now that Medkits have the speed penalty, doesn't that mean the Syringe does too, because it's affected by anything adjusting your healing speed in either direction? Not to say it isn't still absurdly good and a potential target for changes, but I think it did actually get nerfed proportional to the item it's associated with.
Another aside- most of the time when I see people saying the Broken Key is useless, it's in the context of chest loot, where it literally is. Without addons, that item has literally no actual, mechanical effect - things like the green Map and the Dull Key may be functionally useless in that what they do isn't useful in 90+% of scenarios, but they do have a literal mechanical function even without addons. Still, yeah, Keys as a class need love, they barely do anything without addons and even the addons only bring them up to actually being worth bringing. More power in the item itself, and an addon overhaul, would do wonders.
Speaking of, Maps need love too. They're so horrendously addon-dependent to actually do their job, and even then they don't do everything you'd reasonably expect— for instance, there is no way of making your Map reveal Chests unless you bring the perk Detective's Hunch. Chests are like, one of the two static map objects survivors would actually want to seek out, alongside Totems, and Maps just flat out don't reveal them, it's madness. Same deal here, more power in the item itself, reshuffling of addons.
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@Single_Lady said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3840946#Comment_3840946
I agree with the Inner Focus change being inconsistent, originally I had it only activate when you're death hook but didn't like the idea, so I agree it probably needs a different activation method. But I don't think its effects are that good. In most games it will just be a less consistent Iron Will with the Oblivious immunity bonus. Also considering theirs only a few stealth killers the aura read wouldn't be too annoying, the counter-play to it is just not using your stealth while in chase.
Although the Overzealous change is sorta niche I just don't find the current version in-game that useful, having to find and cleanse a totem just to receive a 10% repair boost just isn't worth it, if you want a reliable gen repair perk it's better to use Deja vu, Prove Thyself, or even scavenger. The current Overzealous's only appeal is running it with Inner Strength as a passive effect.
Regarding Overzealous: It activates when you bless a totem, as well. You only have to run a boon as well to make this perk extremely accessible due to never running out of potential charges, and to make the timesink more efficient because you give your whole team an extra effect. It's a damn good perk, I'd hate to see it go. I do like your replacement effect as an idea, but I'd much prefer to see it on a new perk instead.
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The version of Overzealous we have is considerably better and way less niche than your pitch, getting 10% extra generator speed an infinite amount of times just for bringing an additional perk is very very good. I don't hate that idea, but it should be a new perk, we shouldn't have to give up Overzealous for it.
I like the Residual Manifest buff, no problems there. It might be slightly annoying to face chain blinds, but it's not as though you'd need this perk for that, so it's just a nice little buff to an already decent perk.
For Inner Focus, you and I agree that perk isn't very good, but I'd be concerned about this change. I think it'd be too inconsistent, while also probably being too good when it does get to activate. Maybe if you had it be something like, performing X action allows you to charge up Inner Focus, which allows you to cleanse more negative status effects without the extra bonuses?
Hell, you could pair it with Inner Healing and have it be "cleanse a totem to activate Inner Focus, then enter a locker for 12 seconds to cleanse all negative status effects". They'd pair nicely then, as well as Inner Focus having inherent synergy with Overzealous.
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I don't think this is a completely off the mark idea, but I do feel it loses something of the spirit of the perk. David's a rugged and tough individual, the idea that he'd willingly forgo healing entirely to push forward does make sense for him.
Rather, I'd like to see it just improved. Increase the hidden grunts to 100%, and make it so you start healthy + the killer can't see your Broken status. That way you'd get more full use out of its effects because the killer would need to be paying attention to know you're not healing, you're not dropping blood, and you're picking yourself up.
This change would also lose something, that being it being a hard-mode "start the trial injured" perk, but no change that improves this perk wouldn't be losing something in the process, in my opinion. It'd still be hard mode in that you can't heal no matter what, so I think it'd be close enough.
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Why on earth would you assume that the balancing philosophy of the goofy arcade mode would be carried over to the main game…?
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@TotemsCleanser said:
I understand where you're coming from but I'd rather tunneling itself was directly addressed instead of nerfing perks to indirectly nerf tunneling. If this was implemented the hard tunnelers would continue tunneling, they would simply not bring Pain Res and choose other perks instead.
The thing is, that itself is a benefit, because it makes the game less hopeless after the killer tunnels someone out.
While tunnelling itself definitely needs addressing, a quick change that'll stop the worst outcomes of tunnelling would still be a good idea.
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Hard agree.
Having something as potent as Pain Res available after tunnelling someone out is massive, demoralising overkill. You do not need it if you've tunnelled someone out, that's why you'd tunnel someone out.
I'd probably slap this deactivation on a few other perks as well, myself.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837882#Comment_3837882
Ah yes omg lets make toolboxes do 5 percent only and killers will still cry.
Commodious is fine, it just buffs it for longer, at the price of the speed. I think even with the toolbox they do like 35 percent over 20 seconds, that's still a lot longer, than the conversion rate of others.
Hyperfocus + Stakeout are far stronger than commodious could even dream of being when used correctly.
Survivors should have options for items, killers need some anti-momentum basekit if anything to allow for more mistakes (Corrupt/Deadlock)
Nerfing toolboxes will not fix anyones issue lolThe Commodious is the strongest gen repair toolbox overall because it's the most sustained, and Hyperfocus + Stakeout are in fact at their strongest when paired with a Commodious, among many other perks you can bring to catapult that toolbox into absurdly broken territory.
I will say this: I don't really support just nerfing the toolbox's repair numbers, I don't think there's a satisfactory way of doing that. I think the best thing to do is to rework the toolbox's gen effect to do something else, like providing a shield against regression or something. That way the truly broken stuff toolboxes can do is prevented entirely, but they still have a good generator/sabotage split.
Also probably collapse the different kinds in a little, there doesn't really need to be that many. It's just kinda filler for bloodwebs and chests in my opinion.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837743#Comment_3837743
They arent too strong, they serve their purpose. The problem is as mentioned 3 people on gens is currently the meta rn no reason to interact with anything else because gens have been nerfed that hard.
Not to mention every FUN perk to use gives no bloodpoints, meanwhile farting as killer gives you bps atm for the most part.No, they're definitely too strong. They serve their purpose extremely well, and give far too much reward compared to other items and other sources of generator speed. Hell, they just give too much in a vacuum, they're insanely strong.
Or, at least, some toolboxes are. Part of the issue is that brown toolboxes are kinda bad and yellow toolboxes aren't much better, but the greens are insanely busted at their jobs- the Commodious especially.
They are just flat out too good. I've used them myself, I definitely know from experience.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837623#Comment_3837623
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837573#Comment_3837573
Keys are useless, medkits are way worse than they was (and for self-heal it's same time across all medkits with dedicated nerf to Bothany Knowledge), lets make another survivor item trash.
Coming next patch: let's make flashlights useless without some kind of battery addon, why not?
Framing it like this kind of misses the fact that toolboxes are too strong, though.
The correct takeaway should be that we should buff keys and maps to meet the same benchmark for balanced strength that flashlights and medkits already sit at, while nerfing toolboxes down to reach that level too. This is something I've supported myself elsewhere, my position is consistent.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837684#Comment_3837684
They should have implemented a hard cap on progression and regression speeds years ago (and move speed, vault speed, etc).
Stacking effects is generally a problem in this game for both killers and survivors when taken to this extreme. But having a maximum cap to charges per second that can be gained or lost would fix this without really affecting players who aren't stacking this kind of build. One toolbox in a game isn't game breaking, for example, but 3 used on one gen can be.
Now, how they communicate in game to the player that they're hitting a cap is something they'd have to work out. Otherwise you have to just do math and check a wiki or something with no in game feedback that the mechanic even exists.
Eh, while one toolbox isn't game breaking it's still overtuned. I've been the one person in a lobby with a toolbox build before, and the sheer amount of gen repair I can get done in that context just on my own is pretty questionable.
I still think the problem is toolboxes, not general stacking. Survivors could stack every single source of non-toolbox gen speed in the game and still only have a fraction of what a toolbox could give them.
Change toolboxes to not give gen speed and to give something else instead, and the problem disappears.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837594#Comment_3837594
sounds like classic excuse. it is what almost every player says when watching tru3 play killer. he didn't play well and lost. tru3's mostly illustrating that not using gen defence perks is "throwing" as killer. i don't think the game is suppose to be so punishing for killer that not using an archetype of perks guarantees your loss as killer.
So, again, to be clear:
This streamer lost because real, actual genrush builds like the one in this video are extremely unbalanced.
Separately, this streamer wouldn't have done well otherwise because his build was an extremely lopsided gimmick and he actively avoided pressuring survivors.
The first part is the part the really matters, the second part is an important thing to keep in mind when thinking about what videos to use as evidence for a claim.
This video illustrates absolutely nothing about gen defence or killer builds in general. It illustrates that genrush builds are broken. We can also use it as a springboard for discussion about what a good killer build looks like without gen defence, because what this streamer has is Not That At All, but that's separate to what the video itself actually shows.
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@Autharia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837609#Comment_3837609
Thing is they have been hard nerfed already. Before toolboxes lasted 2+ gens worth of charges base and wire spool added 30 or 40 charges.
Sure, but they're obviously still a problem anyway. Things can be nerfed and still not be okay.
Also, wasn't the repair speed bonus way lower back then? That'd be more of a sidegrade, if so.
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Hard disagree, gen times are currently perfectly fine.
The issue this game has with gen speed (that exists outside of poor decision making for the killer player, that is) is exclusively tied to toolboxes. They're the only thing this game has that pushes gen repair speed far enough that it becomes legitimately problematic.
Toolboxes should be reworked to provide a different benefit than gen repair speed, and the problem would then disappear.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837600#Comment_3837600
I feel like the issue with those gen rushing builds is how basically every perk/items survivors have for it stacks. With gen DEFENSE perks, we have anti-synergy to avoid stacking. Gens that are blocked won't regress and can't be kicked. Regressing gens can't be kicked, so things like Pop/ruin can't be used together. Survivor gen perks though have no such anti-synergy.
I'd disagree, I think the main issue is just flat out toolboxes.
The amount of gen repair speed you can get stacking everything else without toolboxes is like, half as much as you get just from a basic toolbox. If toolboxes were ever nerfed to not be this powerful, genrushing builds would take such a gigantic hit in power that they'd practically no longer exist as we know them now.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837466#Comment_3837466
the problem is that you can't run any other perks other than gen defence. The killer needs more leeway to not have to run gen defence every game. you can literally afk as killer and you'll lose at same rate as if you were playing the game without gen defence.
this is what i mean by killer impact on playing the killer is like 0 at base-kit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837335#Comment_3837335
no. the video is saying, killer should not run gen defence, run other variety perks. well here's issue. you run variety perks and you enter the game and lose. killer perks are suppose encourage certain play-style/empower the killer marginally but gen defence perks require you to run them to balance the base game.
you can't even make a tier list of perks in dbd for killer because every perk is like F, C-tier or D-tier for killer and gen defence perk that do anything for gens are like S-tier. that is what tru3 is trying to say when he says. Not using gen defence makes the game harder for you as killer, intentionally. It is like using Weaving spiders and No mither on survivor every game as survivor for every killer perk. a killer perk has to be like Old starstruck nurse-level to be relevant over gen defence with current balance of the game otherwise your running variety for sake variety to make game harder for yourself.
My point is that so much else is wrong with this clip that I don't even think slowdown perks would've helped that much.
We have confirmation that this was a toolbox squad, which is the major thing wrong with trying to make a broad comment about balance using this as evidence. Genrush squads are extremely unbalanced, but they're also extremely rare, teams that commit this hard to just doing gens and getting out are very uncommon and not something you'd really be considering when making a build.
Then there's all the other stuff, like this being a gimmick meme build and the gameplay including a lot of mistakes, that just compound that this particular video went the way it did because of way more factors than just "he didn't have slowdown".
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@Jock21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837335#Comment_3837335
Wandering around at the start of the match in order to find survivors is what literally every single killer who doesn't run Lethal does, but I get it, you need to find a straw to grasp at considering that he hasn't even missed a single tail attack or had a chase longer than 30 seconds, the killers need to be blamed for not playing like literal AIs but not a single bashing towards the same survivors who were still killing themselves on hook or didn't even set up a single turret in order to improve their chase times.
Bad killers wander, good killers search with purpose.
It's also about what he does do as much as what he doesn't. He does go out of his way to hit a breakable wall before interacting with any survivors, he does ignore the survivors he saw to go get into a tunnel, and he does leave the tunnel exit just to go back to where he started again even though there were survivors up by the gallows.
Again, gens definitely went too fast in this video and that is 100% either cheating or dedicated toolbox builds, and either situation is bad + warrants action from the devs, but good results shouldn't be expected even if that wasn't the case because the way this guy approached the game was just fundamentally not very good. Which is fine, obviously, nobody needs to play like a robot every match, but it is relevant to the conversation.
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So, I watched this whole video, but I want to highlight something that is kinda wrong with your post in a way that stands separately from the video itself: You shift the goalposts from complaints about killers running four slowdown perks, to people saying that the killer doesn't need to run any slowdown perks. Those are different statements you'd go about defending or critiquing in different ways.
When it comes to this video being presented as evidence, there's sort of two small flaws that I want to mention, on top of the obvious flaw that this is a single video so it's hard to draw sweeping conclusions from it, and then a sort of potential third thing? It's hard to tell for that, I'll get to it in a second.
The first sort of follows on from my first point. There is a gigantic difference between a balanced and competent build that just happens to not have direct gen defence in it, and what this guy's running which is a gimmick meme build all dedicated to the same thing. There's no info here, there's only one kind of chase perk here, there's nothing that plays off Xeno's strengths as a killer, there's nothing that indicates any kind of coherent gameplan beyond the meme of watching the vault be really really fast. This build may kinda suck, that doesn't speak at all to what you can achieve with other builds that just don't have direct gen defence.
The second thing to point out is that this was a horrendous start to the match, considering this dude just wanders over to main and breaks a breakable wall before pressuring anyone and even flat out ignores survivors he found. Leaving survivors alone to do generators at the start of the match is gonna result in more progression than if they didn't.
The third point is… I'm preeetty sure that all these survivors have toolboxes? It's hard to tell because we don't see the lobby and we don't see the builds at the end of the game, but this looked like a team that was really going hard on gen progression, and flat out - gen speeds in this game are balanced even if you don't bring gen defence, but toolboxes are not. If this video proves anything, then - dependent on whether they all did have toolboxes - it proves that toolboxes are unbalanced. That, or the team were just cheating, which is possible.
My take, personally, is that a lot of stuff went wrong in this particular video. It was a meme build as opposed to a good one, the start of the match was really bad, and the survivors all had a specific tool that itself is the unbalanced thing. It's hard to really draw any conclusions just from this, but it certainly doesn't disprove the notions that builds matter but don't require gen defence specifically, and that toolboxes are unbalanced.
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If they take away penalties entirely, then there won't be any penalties at all for leaving the match you queued up for, meaning more survivors are going to do it and ruin the match for everyone else involved.
Needing to leave a match every once in a while is totally understandable, even if it's just because you aren't having fun, but you shouldn't be able to do it more than every once in a while without some kind of penalty. Other people are trying to play too, when you queue up you're agreeing to play the match out unless there's some extreme circumstance preventing you from doing so.
If you find you have to leave a match for fun-related reasons really frequently, maybe consider taking a break? It kinda sounds like you shouldn't be queuing up at all in that case.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835785#Comment_3835785
This about covers it, but that won't prevent me from yapping a bit myself of course.
Perk is incredibly situational, even Solidarity (an already rather situational perk that like you I have never been a particular proponent of) seems strictly better. And people just overrate the time saving on these heals sometimes. Saving some seconds on heals can be nice, but more often than not what's important with healing is less the time investment and more healing safely without getting interrupted. Less seconds spent healing can help with that, but it won't all that regularly help. A lot of the time and especially when you group up to heal with multiple survivors, you do so at safe, out-of-the-way locations where you regularly won't be interrupted. Sure these perks can then allow for more "risky" reset locations at times, but that's even more situational a proposition. That already puts Solidarity in a niche standing due to its situationalness and not very reliably very valuable effect. Clean Break then doubles down on the "time saving" idea of this, because instead of being healed by another survivor, you passively heal. Only of course this takes 60 seconds instead of the 16 (or 4.8 with Solidarity) it would take for the person you healed to heal you, a lot more time to be found and downed during.
There's also something to be said about the struggle of even getting someone to touch you in this game. Imagine you've healed someone after unhooking them, the killer is approaching, and all you want is for them to quickly touch you so that you may be able to heal passively in the ensuing chase - but starting to heal you obviously being the last thing on that unhooked survivor's mind in that scenario. Even getting to heal someone else in the first place is far from reliable even if they are injured. We have all chased after people while screaming "We'll Make It!" at them. Being self-sufficient is really one of the most important aspects of means of self-healing, with regards to which this perk doubly disappoints.
Being Broken also communicates to the killer that you have the perk, thereby potentially motivating them to commit to trying to down you within those 60 seconds and rob you of perk value. Which by the way is really strange to me: Why if they have wisened up in the case of Moment Of Glory to the fact that losing the perk value alongside its activation investment upon being downed is pretty terrible and made the great change where it will activate again automatically the next time you are in the injured state have they regressed to a "screw you if you die" mindset again with this perk? Moment Of Glory seems strictly better than Clean Break to me, and that's something I didn't think I would say.
I will also echo something I think you've said in another post here, which is that med-kits are just far and away the best means of healing, and if BHVR want to change this they need to bring things able to compete with them. Sure in the odd hit-and-run match having things like Autodidact and/or Solidarity can be really neat, but in most matches a 2-heal med-kit (with the second heal potentially being a Syringe) will be most of the healing you need, and this can obviously be 8 heals between all survivors. I have yet to see a good reason to bring anything but a med-kit for my healing needs, at most bringing Built To Last alongside it if I want more heals for one reason or another. The only times I bring other means of healing is either when I want to use a different item (which isn't that often because only in few builds are other items worth it over med-kits) or in speciality builds like Inner Strength with Head On, or Circle in Boon builds. Some of them do have their unique merits, but most of all of them would require tangible buffs to compete with the king of healing that is "med-kit". Hell, I could envision a complete shift wherein med-kits become much more pointedly about healing others, at most being able to heal oneself 1 time with them (the time-to-heal depending on the type of med-kit), and instead buffing various of these healing perks. I have always thought that Circle enabling self-heals was actually healthy for the game, encouraging people to spend a lot more time running to and from it and resetting, slowing down games but also making them less snowbally, and benefitting solo survivors a lot. I think Circle would be perfectly fine and even healthy for the game if it enabled survivors to heal themselves again, albeit at 32 seconds per self-heal.
To the point about Solidarity, I'd argue that comparison actually highlights the benefit of a perk like Clean Break, since Solidarity is considerably more restrictive and takes longer overall.
Solidarity requires you to be injured and able to reset with a survivor in order to use it at all, compared to Clean Break that can be charged while healthy and used in situations where the person trying to heal you is themselves healthy. It's a perk you charge ahead of time, giving you more flexibility in how you use it. Not that Solidarity is bad these days with the buffed numbers, but it is more restricted in when you get to use it.
Then, on top of that, the benefit is also stronger on Clean Break. A self heal with Solidarity takes 4.8 seconds (I'm trusting your numbers rather than crunching them myself, ftr) which means that the total time investment is 20.8 seconds, since you also have to heal someone else directly before using it— but you do get two heals from that, to be fair. Even if we only look at the 4.8 second investment, a perk like Clean Break has a 1 second investment, because you only need to tap the button and you're already back in the game, doing gens and getting saves and going on chases and such.
That's why passive-heal perks will, as long as they're balanced properly, always be competitive with medkits. Being able to do anything you want while the heal's happening is inherently far stronger than having to be stuck in place doing the action for almost half a minute— you're able to progress the game with generator repair or altruistic actions, you're much more able to evade the killer and play it safe, and you're even able to go on chases if you're confident. Being ambushed performing the healing action is worse for you than being able to sprint away immediately without losing healing progress.
That's not to say Clean Break is going to be a super appealing meta perk, as it's always simpler to just let the survivor heal you or bring other self-heal tools. People like the simpler tools more than the niche and more complicated tools, that's for sure, but Clean Break has its place and isn't badly designed.
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Turrets.
You aren't totally helpless if there aren't turrets around, but everything you have available is much higher risk and relies on either having high-wall cover available or baiting the killer into a miss. The goal with Xeno is to have a web of turrets set up that you or your teammates would have readily available within a short sprinting distance if a chase happens.
Xeno can be kind of annoying to face in solo queue because you're somewhat depending on your teammates to make smart decisions (and we all know how that goes) but you can be fairly self-serving here and just make sure your exit is covered by a turret if the killer comes after you. The turret stations are near generators, so you spend a little prep time grabbing one and putting it nearby before doing gens and you're usually gonna have it available when you need it.
The turrets are best being placed in or near loops rather than directly next to the generator you're working on, as a tip.
Xeno excels at catching survivors out of position and unprepared, but struggles if survivors are more cautious with their positioning and prepare their defences in advance. Even at the start of the match, the tail attack is formidable but Xeno doesn't move any faster than the default movement speed, so being extra safe and keeping an eye out until turrets are set up is usually a solid plan.
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Why not? It's a cute detail.
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@Flopkween said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835401#Comment_3835401
Wouldn't it be faster to just heal since your already healing?
Depends on context, I think.
Hypothetically you could use the time you would've spent healing on generator repair, which would be a legitimate benefit, since it's a passive heal. It's also got the benefit of (I assume) not being affected by stuff like Mangled, Leverage, Coulrophobia, etc so you can pseudo-counter those while doing gens or other actions.
I haven't gotten onto the PTB yet but if it works the way I assume it does, it'll be super niche but perfectly usable.
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I wonder why Merchant's killswitched. Freddy I'd guess has something to do with the new map and the Dream World, even if it isn't that it's a fairly safe guess. Merchant I've got no clue, though.
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Definitely seems to be a good anti-tunnel perk on paper, curious to test it out.
I'd be wary of considering it the ultimate end to tunnelling, though. Whatever that looks like, it'll have to be a basekit feature, not a perk.
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I kind of agree. Another thing I think about often is that perk tiers put some unnecessary restrictions on perk design, because there has to be some number to tweak that scales between tiers. It doesn't come up often, but occasionally in the course of designing perks or thinking about balance changes, I end up confronted with the question "well wait, what part would scale with tiers in this case?"
At the very least, I think it'd be appropriate for generic perks to lose their tier rarities, and just spawn in the bloodweb at their highest levels. That'd give new players and those levelling new characters quicker access to the tools to craft builds with, while still maintaining the prestige 1-3 system for teachables to make those feel a little more rewarding to grind for.
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The short answer to the title's question is simply and flatly "they don't".
Even in your examples we can see what I mean by that- we'll set aside Boil Over as others have pointed out it's a bad example due to never actually being strong, just unhealthy, so that leaves us with Adrenaline and Distortion.
Both of those perks were nerfed, no doubts about it, so what state are they in after the nerfs? Well, Adrenaline is still arguably the second best survivor perk in the entire game, and Distortion is a strong and viable pick for most kinds of stealthy play. That doesn't seem like gutting to me, it just seems like those two things got slightly weaker.
The same is true for most survivor perk nerfs, and indeed, most nerfs to killer perks too. There are exceptions, but by and large, the community immediately leaps to "This thing is worthless now" whenever they get nerfed at all, and I don't think that's fair or appropriate. There's no sense cutting off viable options from your builds just because they got nerfed at some point.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
The Distortion nerf completely eliminated the stealth playstyle from the game, which is extremely sad. I realize that many consider chases to be the most enjoyable part of the game, but a lot of people enjoy(ed) the stealth playstyle as well. The hide-and-seek element of the game is especially important for new players who aren't yet good at chases/looping. I remember stealth being a very important means of me being able to survive matches before I learned how to last a reasonable amount of time in chase. Now, especially with the amount of aura-reading perks available to killers (and how often I see them in my matches), stealth playstyle isn't even an option. It's really quite sad, and I think is going to turn off new players. The game already has enough trouble attracting and retaining new players given how steep the learning curve is and how much content there is to learn and master.
It got nerfed because it was used too frequently, but nobody bothered asking why it was used so frequently. It was the only way to make a stealth playstyle viable because you see one or more aura-reading perk in just about every single game. When I play killer now, I bring at least one aura reading perk and it helps me TREMENDOUSLY because nobody uses Distortion anymore.
I firmly disagree with this, I think the stealth playstyle is still completely viable.
For one, Distortion itself is still perfectly useful for stealth playstyles. It lets you get your bearings early on because whatever the first aura read is, it's not revealing you, whether that's Lethal or something like a first hook BBQ, and that's already very useful. On top of that, if you like playing stealth enough that you want to evade the killer after they start chasing you, Distortion pairs beautifully with trickery perks like Dance With Me and Quick & Quiet, since it stops stuff like Predator or I'm All Ears revealing you as you try to escape.
Another strong element of Distortion is that its activation tells you which perks the killer has, with a small margin for false positives. That means that certain aura reading perks, ones with predictable tells like BBQ, can be avoided after you've used up a token on them. This doesn't work on everything, but a fair few perks do function in ways you can avoid.
But, crucially, Distortion isn't the only tool for hiding your aura, and it never has been- it just use to heavily outclass the others.
If what you want is more geared towards working on generators safely, to minimise the risk of being seen and the killer interrupting your repairs, Shadow Step is legitimately a viable option. It pairs very nicely with something like Overzealous or Circle of Healing, to get extra benefits from the setup time.
Off The Record, too, lets you reset with other survivors and start to work on generators again after an unhook. Less consistent than the other two, but it's also pretty good anti-tunnel so it's still an appealing pick.
What's changed about the stealth playstyle is just that it involves more than crouching in a bush these days, you have to plan around wanting to be stealthy. That's not a bad thing, because it really isn't that hard, it's still very accessible. You just gotta think about your options a bit more.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I mean that's basically the same deal as Object. Object also gives you a 6% speed boost when your aura is revealed. I think it'd be too similar.
Damn, I flat out didn't know that, my bad.
Frankly, I think it'd make more sense on Spine Chill compared to Object, I think Object is a complete enough perk just with the aura sharing mechanic.
Though, looking at the wiki, it seems Object affects fewer actions, so there'd still be some differences in niche either way. Still, if I were to pick an adjustment based on this information, I'd take it off Object and put it on Spine Chill, as well as making the aura sharing consistent instead of Obsession based.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833718#Comment_3833718
The problem is how many little gen repair speeds we get that can stack. 6% isn't much, but then you have other perks that also have those little gen repair speed buffs, and put enough on, especially a whole team, and you're having matches over within minutes.
It's a lot less consistent than other small percentages, to be fair, but like I said - that's part of what'd need to be tested on a hypothetical PTB.
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@Seraphor said:
I suggested exactly this.
Or rather I think Spine Chill could drop line of sight entirely and only activate with aura reading.
It would make it a useful tool for learning what aura perks are in play, and how they work in general. But that could get confusing if line of sight also activates it.
I could easily see it losing the line of sight activation too, yeah. I was torn on that because on the one hand, that does make the perk much more cohesive and easily understood, but on the other it also makes it a perk that sometimes won't activate once in an entire game.
It could go either way, I think.