jesterkind
jesterkind
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I like doing these thought exercises, they're pretty fun. A couple explanations and caveats/asterisks here…
I'm not ranking Vecna or Dracula because I simply don't have enough experience as or against them, I took a fairly lengthy break over those two killers' release windows.
Generally, the criteria is including all of their addons and perk variety as part of what dictates their position; the more versatile, the better. The only exception is that I'm exempting Tombstone Piece because it's so fundamentally broken it catapults Myers up to like, A tier, and that's just misleading.
The S tiers haven't changed in years, but the gap between them and the A tiers has shrunk, as well as the A tier getting some pretty serious shakeups over the past few years. Billy is now fourth best in the game, only below Spirit because he's fundamentally more fair than her + the two above her, but Huntress has dropped down from A to B because of map design putting more crap to block her hatchets everywhere. Bubba, too, has risen to be kind of a sleeper threat, he's way better than some people give him credit for. Nemesis has been A tier material since release and he's only been buffed since then, so he's definitely not going anywhere.
I also want to highlight that, when I do these tier lists, I usually make a note to include an F tier that is almost always blank, because F implies the killer really is irredeemably bad, and throughout the time I've been playing the game that has happened maybe twice. Right now, there is an F tier killer, because she was executed. Usually this spot is blank because all killers can get work done, it's just a matter of how hard it is and how specific their builds have to be in order to do it.
A few killer specific caveats:
Singularity and Pinhead are rated based on the assumption that you can perform them to their highest potential, but that is really hard. The average player is gonna struggle to juggle manual Chain Hunts or the fifty different things Singularity needs to keep in mind at one time, so their mileage is going to vary.
While Billy does get the Most Improved medal, I think a strong argument could be made for Pig getting second best. The numerous buffs she's received over the past however long have really solidified her, she's genuinely pretty decent now.
Finally, Trapper and Freddy are pretty much in the same spot. Trapper has higher snowball capacity, Freddy is more consistent, otherwise they're about the same strength level. Shift them around relative to one another at your leisure, depends what you value.
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@Marc_123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829767#Comment_3829767
I play long enough and also very casual and offensive. So i do my challenges and die already a lot.
But i can recognize the perks and see how quick people go down.
To me it is just annoying trying to hide somewhere and seeing the killer beelining to me.
… also - is today Blight day or something? Ran into three 3 Blights, 2 P100. Were very short games…
That's not really an answer, I'm legitimately trying to help. Most aura perks in the game right now have counters, either in basekit actions (admittedly fairly rare) or in counter pick perks. If you're noticing specific perks are revealing you more often than you'd like, there's almost certainly an answer to them.
The answer might still be Distortion, mind you. That perk's still good.
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@TheSubstitute said:
I disagree with how Distortion was changed for a variety of reasons. The most impactful of those for the game as opposed to myself is that Distortion used to help new players while now it does not do so. The 15 seconds in chase is welcome and anyone with situational awareness should be able to get 15 seconds just hitting W on most Killers. However, new players don't necessarily have situational awareness as they're new and DbD already has such atrociously high barriers against entry for new survivor players that anything that helps them should be encouraged. I feel that tying tokens to 30 second periods spent on gens would have been more helpful.
On a personal note Distortion feels more like you're being cheated now to me instead of rewarded for being in chase. In a couple of recent games I ran a Killer who was trying to tunnel me until my OTR indicator ran out (so over 80 seconds as a minimum). In return I got one token? That doesn't feel commensurate with the effort put in. If there were more tokens available than 2 or the tokens were tied to gen repairs it would have felt better even if Distortion was useless in those two specific scenarios (a Killer sticking to me like glue; there's no need for aura reading unless the Killer loses track)
I don't think a change was even that necessary as I quite often run aura reading builds and I had no issues finding Distortion users. It's not accurate to say it's unfair for Distortion to counter so many perks and items when the only reason that Distortion was popular is because there are so many powerful aura reading tools available. As soon as NTH was introduced I thought that Distortion would become popular simply because of the aura reading power creep. If aura reading perks hadn't received so much power creep then there wouldn't have been a reason for Distortion to have been buffed. However, aura reading perks are multiple times stronger than when BBQ and Chili was considered strong aura reading.
Distortion is also hard countered by Spies in the Shadows, Surveillance and Discordance. I'd rather know myself which and how many Survivors are on gens so I can more accurately determine when I should drop chase and defend gens instead.
All in all, I find the change was both unnecessary and poorly implemented. Distortion was nerfed without addressing the underlying reason that it was popular because aura reading has been power crept substantially and it was changed in a way that both makes the game harder for new survivors and doesn't feel like it rewards more experienced survivors. If Distortion is not to be reverted back then I feel BHVR also needs to either address the power creep Killer aura reading perks have received or change the requirement to recharge tokens to a time period such as 30 seconds repairing generators so at least it helps newer players develop better habits.
A lot of this seems to rest on the implied assertion that Distortion is no longer useful or consistent, but that's not true. Distortion is still very consistent at countering specific kinds of aura reading, and moderately consistent and countering the rest. It still does the main thing that it is supposed to do, it just isn't flawless any more.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about it helping new players before but not now, so apologies if I'm not addressing the core of your argument, but to me it seems like it still does do just that. It's a layer of protection against being chased right away due to Lethal, it's a layer of protection against having your aura read from something like BBQ or Nowhere To Hide, and it's exceptional at helping you protect against mid-chase aura reading. All of that is very useful to a new player- what's missing, what did they get before that they don't now? They can't hide forever with just Distortion, but that'd be a pretty unreasonable expectation so I don't want to assume that's what you meant.
There are still defences against aura reading, that are absolutely viable against the current overall strength of info perks. There could absolutely stand to be more, since there are only currently three viable ones and a singular non viable one on top of that, but they do exist at the moment and all three viable ones are on original survivors to boot, so no forced paywall.
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@Marc_123 said:
Awful change.
Run into killers with a lot of aura stuff all the time now.
Takes hiding as an option away. Sadly makes the game less tactical. And imo only hurts new and bad players who mostly can´t cahse well.
It is not Distortion, it is the aura reading stuff which should be dialed back big time in the game overall.
I don't see how it takes hiding as an option away. Not only is Distortion itself still good, but there are two other viable aura blocking perks depending on what auras in particular you want blocked.
Which aura perks are giving you trouble?
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Interesting concept for a tier list, I like it!
I think two are being underrated a little, to provide some feedback. Sable and Nic Cage both have two exceptional perks each, and their weaker perks are still serviceable in the right contexts.
Cage is definitely too low, both Plot Twist and Dramaturgy are quite strong. While Scene Partner is a little weaker, it's still serviceable, so I wouldn't say it drags down his average all that far.
Sable should probably be up one tier too, in my opinion, probably in the same spot as Cage for about the same reason. Strength in Shadows is an exceptional healing perk with an aura on top, and Wicked provides excellent information post-unhook to let you know where and when it's safe to reset, as well as if the killer is trying to tunnel you. Weaving Spiders definitely brings her average down more than Scene Partner does for Cage, but I'd argue her two good perks are better than his too, so I think they average out about the same.
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@RhodosGuard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829131#Comment_3829131
Picking a boon always has a benefit. The only way a boon becomes a liability is when you face a Killer with both shattered hope and Pentimento. While picking Shattered Hope is a gamble that anyone even brings a boon, and Pentimento alone is a gamble that noone has a boon.
There simply is a clear discrepency in the value between picking Hexes, picking Hexes with defences, picking hexes without defences, and picking 2 very specific perks that can just be entirely useless.
There is a reason Hexes were only ever Meta when Ruin caused 200% regression.
I just dont get how the proposition of an entire class of perks that only work if you, first, dedicate your entire build to it and second, the survivors are oblivious to that build enough to let you play it out, is fun.
And supposedly we hate things that aren't fun here.I mean, sure, but that's not super relevant here. Picking a lot of kinds of perks guarantees a benefit, the fact that hexes are more inconsistent is both by design to a degree, and a unique issue to them.
I'm not saying that hexes are in a good spot, I was careful to make sure to say the opposite in my first post. I'm just saying their interactions with boons really aren't the issue- if hexes were in a healthier spot right now, you'd still see them disappear if they're booned over, because that's just logical.
There are other things that would help hexes out here. I've always been a big champion of having them not light up until they've actually had an effect on the match, and possibly also having the potential totem spots be re-randomised at set intervals every few months so finding totems just inherently gets harder without the tools to do it. Those cover hexes' actual issues right now, being that they're too likely to be cleansed immediately.
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@RhodosGuard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829102#Comment_3829102
Then remove Hexes, or replace them with something that actually works without requiring full investment.
With this argument, you might as well say "Never play Hexes, they are useless" which is a really good argument when your supposed punchline is that asking for buffs if dumb.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829074#Comment_3829074
But without a boon, I can use Pentimento. Which is one of, if not the definitive, perk that's supposed to make Hex Builds work.
People say "you need to make your entire build cater to hexes if you want any individual hex perk to be worth taking, and then I take one of those perks, and it is entirely negated by a random survivor having a boon.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829103#Comment_3829103
Imagine if any Survivor Perk was bound to the Killer not doing some arbitrary low effort action.
People would riot immediately.
"You can only use lithe as long as one random crow on the map has not been disturbed"
I mean, only need to pick up the "Crows arent disturbed when you are within 8 feet" perk and stay close to your crow the entire game, which totally justifies that this perk of yours is bound to an arbitrary object not being interacted with.That is true, you can't use Pentimento, but other than that one specific perk it works exactly as intended.
All of the other hex-defence/hex-support perks work properly against boons, so I don't view this as a giant issue with hexes, and rather just… the one singular downside for picking Pentimento over the other support perks.
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I don't know that I see this as a problem, honestly.
Think about it, the survivor still
- Found your hex
- Stopped and completed the interaction on that totem
- Even chose to take longer doing it than normal
Without boons in play, your hex is gone anyway, boons just also give survivors an unrelated bonus if they happen to be running those perks. If a survivor has, say, Overzealous, that's another perk that allows them to get an extra benefit for finding and cleansing your hex. I can't see any reasons Boons shouldn't work the same way, myself.
Hexes could absolutely use some help, but I don't think this specifically is a problem area. This works pretty much the way it should.
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431041/pain-resonance-change-proposal
So, when everyone is screaming about the epidemic of slugging and that hooks are not so effective, you propose nerf the perks that encourage hooks, well this is not a good idea
I have seen some people making the claim about hooks not being effective, but I have absolutely no clue what they could possibly mean, so it doesn't sway my opinions about what would be good changes.
As for slugging, I don't think it's the problem others do, outside of specific niche interactions like slugging everyone to death intentionally. Whatever the scale of that problem, though, it'll obviously require its own adjustments.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
- 10% on a Scourge hook is pretty bad. Remember, Scourges are RNG in their placement. So the effect needs to be strong, or at least strong enough to warrant sometimes going past a closer, more convenient hook for a further Scourge one. And if you bump it to 15%, then it's its OG state, except now it turns off when someone dies.
- This is not going to stop me from tunnelling. It could arguably be a little worse. I tunnel Bill, get pain res once, twice, and finally thrice. I get a 30% slowdown all by tunnelling, possibly combined with DMS for a 50-second block. So I get MORE regression (3 10% vs 1 20%), have a gen blocked potentially longer, and the only consequence is I'm down a perk in a 3v1—big whoop.
I would argue that the Scourge Hook placement is less of a requirement than comparable perks, which is part of why Pain Res is so overwhelmingly strong right now. Eruption is 10%, though it does apply to multiple gens, and it requires more than being in range of a white hook- same with Surge, a lower number with more of a position requirement.
I could see the number being higher, based on testing, but my gut tells me 10% would be enough for Pain Res to honestly still be easily the best regression perk in the game. Even if it isn't, it's just in line with everything else instead of actually being bad.
Tunnelling will of course need to be fixed anyway, my only goal with this change is to make it so Pain Res in particular stops working if you tunnel.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828665#Comment_3828665
Then just make it disable upon a survivor dying, that should be enough to knee cap it if you tunnel no need to also make it worse 90% of the time
Well, that would still be better than what we have now, but it wouldn't do as much to dissuade killers from tunnelling after their tokens are used up.
But, still, that would be better so I'd like to see that if it's all that's on the table. I'd still prefer to see it get an improvement on being able to be used on every hook for a lower number, but if that isn't on the table, I'm fine with that.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828651#Comment_3828651
3 hooks is the minimum to kill someone, 6 hooks is the minimum to hook all survivors once and have one survivor dead
you already stretch 3 into 6 but thats not good enough to reward?
My issue is with tunnelling, not hook count. Obviously tunnelling is worse from the very start of the match, but purposefully chasing someone immediately after unhook until they're dead is bad and something we should be moving away from as strenuously as possible.
If you choose to do it, disregarding any other changes that should happen, you definitely shouldn't get to have regression perks available afterwards. Regression perks in a 3v1 are overkill.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828649#Comment_3828649
That's fair. They could just make DMS activate like 1 second after the hook instead of immediately, so the combo wouldn't work anymore but DMS on its own would basically be unchanged
What they did before was make it so Pain Res didn't make you scream until the end of the hook animation, meaning you could keep an eye out and let go as the hook happened to avoid being kicked off.
It worked great, I don't know why it changed. DMS having a second's delay would also work, though.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828641#Comment_3828641
Its not extra slowdown though especially since yes the high end is 90% is while playing the nicest. For the other version you could get 100% value out of it at 4 hooks and then kill someone at 6 hooks. This one gives the same value at 8 hooks and only more value after 9 hooks. Having a gap that big of leaving 4 survivors alive for that long is just asking to lose.
I mean, yeah, that's the point. It's the perk for encouraging spreading pressure, the healthier thing for perks to encourage.
If you kill someone at six hooks in that scenario, doesn't that necessarily imply you're tunnelling the survivor you choose to get out, since you've only got two more hooks? Pain Res shouldn't give you 100% value in that scenario.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I agree with it deactivating on a survivor death, but I would keep the tokens and leave it at 20%. The tokens would serve their intended purpose just fine if you add in the deactivation on death clause, and in some ways I feel like the perk was actually more obnoxious when it activated on every scourge hook despite the regression value being lower (15% back then), as it gave more opportunities for PR + DMS to work and also meant that generators could be left in a regressing state from the perk more often (either due to DMS blocking the gen, or nowadays if the killer forces you off the gen before you can stop the regression since that isn't instant anymore), which overall made it more annoying to play against.
To an extent, getting the full value for one survivor from just one scourge hook also makes the perk more fun to use for killers, because scourge hook RNG doesn't matter as much with this perk as it does with the other scourge hook perks (ie. as long as you get a survivor on a scourge hook once, it doesn't matter if you do the second time or not).
I left it out of my post, but I also think the PR + DMS pair should be fixed again. I have no idea why it went from being counterable to becoming uncounterable again, whether that's a bug or an intended change, but it's really annoying. The solution was elegant and effective, there's no reason not to bring it back.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828636#Comment_3828636
The problem is it being spread out doesn't really feel rewarding or impactful for going after different survivors. 10% each proc is pitiful. Especially considering the release version of the perk was 15% per hook AND had info. 20% at once makes up for the time taken to hook the survivor 10% doesn't even cover the time to nearby hooks
Considering that hooks themselves are already your springboard for slowdown and pressure, you don't need to "make up" for the time it takes to hook someone. You already do that just by playing normally, and the regression you get on top is extra slowdown.
The number could end up being higher, don't get me wrong, but 10% is far from pitiful considering it comes when you're already setting yourself up to keep the ball rolling. It's not like, say, Eruption or Surge - fine perks, far from terrible, but they proc on downs, and downs can be stopped from converting into hooks by survivors. If that happens, you only get that regression and nothing else.
With Pain Res, you always have the hook, and all the pressure that comes with it.
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@bjorksnas said:
Hard disagree with this line of thinking. You shouldn't make a massive nerf then put a disable condition on it. If anything if you would put a disable condition on it then it should be buffed or moderately reworked to suit it better but with a more forced playstyle.
Why not instead double down on it being a reward for not tunneling perk for killers and maybe add a secondary effect that forces the killer away after it activates instead that can backfire if you want to pivot to tunnel midgame
Scourge Hook: Pain resonance
You start the Trial with 4 Tokens on Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance.
Each time a Survivor is hooked on a Scourge Hook for the first time, 1 Token is consumed and the following effects apply:
The Generator
with the most Progression explodes and instantly regresses by 10/15/20 % of its total Progression.
Normal Generator Regression applies afterwards.
All Survivors repairing that Generator will scream, but not reveal their location.(new) 3s after hooking the survivor teleport to the generator closest to the furthest survivor with the least hook stages (similar to how Freddy teleports but can teleport to incomplete gens) and reveal the aura of the survivor teleported to this way for 8 seconds survivors who have their aura revealed this way cannot have it blocked by any means (no lockers / distortion / off the record)
(new) This perk becomes disabled after a survivor dies.
Now the perk is a very unique perk that can send the killer to the opposite side of the map in seconds on a wild goose chase after survivors who they can use it on
Its not a well polished effect but id 100% want to see it before a massive double nerf thats unnecessary atm
I don't view this as a massive nerf, it's at worst a sidegrade. It's more overall regression (90% total regression for two hooking everyone then killing one, versus 80% total regression for hooking everyone once), staggered over more hook actions. That's hardly a massive nerf even if it ends up a tiny bit weaker overall.
Besides, it's not as though Pain Res isn't incredibly strong right now. It can handle a slight nerf in the course of making it much healthier.
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@yukiday said:
There's no point in using it when it only slows down by around 10%.
It's still like this even now at 20%. It's not hard to imagine.How do you mean? Pain Resonance is currently arguably the strongest killer perk with 20%, and that's only four times.
There are also other slowdown perks at or around 10% and they're perfectly usable, even with the extra conditions they have compared to Pain Res. It'd be more than usable at 10% for every hook.
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@Rulebreaker said:
We'd say this should be tested but we do like it (though we'd bump up the number little).
The main concern is the whole people swinging to death. Since this turns off when someone dies it steals the perk effectively (we personally don't mind but this is a concern for everyone) A second concern is that people would tunnel till death hook and then slug. Needless to say that would be a great pain in the arse.
I do see the concern with those two things, but I personally consider them problems in their own right that'll need their own dedicated fixes.
Slugging a little less so, that's got a reasonable amount of counters in most scenarios, but people leaving matches without a penalty needs to be addressed either way.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431041/pain-resonance-change-proposal
abysmal idea. something that is not talked about with pain res is that pain res doesn't slow the game down. it only refunds the time takes to hook someone. on average, picking up survivor a survivor takes 3 second and putting them on a hook is like 2 seconds. hooking takes anywhere between 6 to 18 seconds. on average, it takes around 12-14 second to get a hook. the amount of regression that pain res provides is only dis-accounting 1 survivor being on a gen for the time spend carrying the hook.
So nerfing the perks regression makes the perk worthless. killers already suffer penalty for tunneling with pain res. they don't get full benefit of pain res which is -40% regression and grim embrace has similar limiting factor of -40 second gen-blocking. this assuming 2/4 survivors are hooked and killer tunnels after that till the hooked people die.
The actual slowdown comes from your gameplay. The regression you get from perks is supposed to complement that, not replace it.
10% total progression taken off is not at all a worthless effect. Other perks have numbers around this level and they're perfectly fine, so it would be for Pain Res too. It's just free extra regression for an action you're already going to be doing either way, so you don't need to "refund" the time spent doing it for the extra regression to be worthwhile.
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@Crowman said:
It's really the fact that each hook state was increased by 10 seconds and hooks have seen other nerfs over the past year as well. If it was just a 10 second increase, it wouldn't be a problem itself. But hooking has slowly been made riskier and less worth it.
Out of curiosity, what nerfs are you referring to here? I can't think of any changes hooks went through recently at all, save for the 10 second increase and them respawning after a sacrifice now.
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@NotVerySuss said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828407#Comment_3828407
I get your point about occupying the 3 survivors and it used to work well.. but the thing is now when they greed gens instead of hooking it kinda feels like trading objectives.. yes their greed might cost them to skip a hook stage but that’s only 1/12 of your objective but in the other end they finish 2/5 of their objective.. it just doesn’t feel fair..
does it make sense? English is not my first language so sorry it my explanation is not very clear..
It's not about skipping a hook stage, it's about getting other survivors hooked.
The first survivor you hooked might still get saved in time before they progress stages, but if you already have someone else hooked before that happens, you're in a really advantageous position. Even if a generator is completed, the survivors are still worse off than the killer, because the killer has the ability to snowball their advantage really heavily.
Let me put it this way: Killing all four survivors with five gens left is not more of a win than killing all four survivors with no gens left. It doesn't matter how many generators they get done if they still die by the end.
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I disagree, I don't think the extra ten seconds has a negative effect on killers who play fair. If anything, if survivors leave their teammates on hook for those extra ten seconds, it's giving fair killers more opportunity to snowball their pressure.
I've said this before in other threads, but the best pressure a killer can get short of a dead survivor is to occupy three survivors at once. One on hook, one in chase, one peeling off for the save. For as long as that rundown is true, generator repair plummets down in efficiency.
If survivors are keeping two on gens while one's on the hook and one's in chase, that means you're still bringing the repair efficiency down to half of what it could be, and you're being given a little more time to get that down and snowball your pressure. If you finish your chase sooner than the survivors on generators expect, and get two hooks at the same time, the team has to scramble to undo that situation and reset— during which time, you're still entering chases and keeping the pressure up, keeping them in a cycle of constantly having to unhook and heal.
It's also still very possible to proxy camp and punish survivors prioritising gens so much, as long as you're aiming to get into a chase with the would-be rescuer or force a trade, instead of forcing the hook stage on the hooked survivor.
I'm not saying you're not struggling at the moment, but if you are, I would strongly suggest it's for other reasons.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828328#Comment_3828328
You're right, I forget it applies to healing too. Well, any idea is a good one compared to what we have now, if you ask me. If we did it your way, I'd do it differently, and add bonuses instead of remove drawbacks, though I'd remove the injured requirement completely since it would be tied to hook states instead.
- No Hooks: Skillchecks are placed randomly.
- 1 Hook: Good and Great Skillcheck zones increase by +20%. Missed skillcheck penalty is reduced to -5%.
- 2 Hooks: Good and Great Skillcheck zones increase by +40%. Missed skillcheck penalty is reduced to -2.5%.
They'd still be random but they'd become easier to do the closer you are to dying, with penalties mitigated further and further.
That'd work too, for sure. The perk has a very strong effect, so what it needs is to become more accessible without going overboard, in my opinion.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828316#Comment_3828316
What if instead of hook states, it was tied to generators completed? Like it starts at +3% and adds another +3% for each generator that's repaired. Or maybe apply it based on the generator's repair progress itself so you get more and more skillchecks the closer the generator is to being completed.
I think hook states is both a more meaningful balancing factor, and much more thematic to the idea of the perk- you're closer to failing your deadline the closer you are to death, spurring you on to be more efficient. Conversely, you're closer to meeting your deadline the closer you are to leaving the trial, so that pressure doesn't apply.
Plus, while gen repairs are probably the strongest use of Deadline, it's not just for gen repairs. It also applies to healing, and that's no slouch either here.
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Deadline is a weird perk to talk about, because the actual main effect isn't small or inconsequential - +10 to the base skillcheck percentage results in an over doubled likelihood of a skillcheck at any given second while repairing generators and still a very hefty increase while healing. That's pretty huge, but because the perk has two drawbacks to keep it in line, it can be a pretty unappealing perk to use outside of niche applications like Autodidact.
I had a thread about this myself a while ago, but I think a fun way of buffing this perk would be to tie in to the theme of nearing a deadline, and having the restrictions removed as you get hooked. Start of the match, it works exactly as it does now. After one hook, you still need to be injured but they're no longer in random positions. After two hooks, they're in normal positions and the effect applies while healthy.
That'd make it more appealing and accessible while still keeping the really powerful effect in check.
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I'm not sure why the Distortion nerf is being brought up in this context, considering Distortion still counters Lethal at the start of the match and its increased duration to fifteen seconds means that most perks still won't punch through it even with Lethal's plus two seconds. Regardless of where it ends up falling otherwise, Distortion is flat out still a counter to Lethal Pursuer.
In general, I think Lethal is fine. It's a good example of how a top tier perk can be in that spot without being unhealthy or broken. It's just a solid, overall good info perk that helps killers get into chases quicker without being overbearing in those chases.
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@DeBecker said:
Instead of trying to fix some issues, they completely went nuts again. In addition to every stealth nerf through out the last years (massive influx of aura read perks vs massive nerfs of stealth perks) they completely sealed off any possibility to play stealthy as survivor who arent good loopers, whom is the most part of the playerbase. Just another pretty good job on killing variation on survivor builds. Those changes are beyond understanding.
I disagree, I think Distortion very much still remains viable.
Do you disagree with any of the use cases I laid out in the post?
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827721#Comment_3827721
Well, a basic attack causing the survivor to enter the dream world is a “manual method” of forcing them into the dream world.
But I assume you mean a more “fire-and-forget” ranged (specifically) ability to make them sleepy?
Yeah, that's what his old power was. I wouldn't be considering it otherwise- it's purely on my list of potential changes because people want parts of old Freddy back, and the only thing I think could work in modern DBD is having the ranged ability to force survivors into the Dream World.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827721#Comment_3827721
It's just a bone that you could throw to the people holding the very strange opinion that any kind of reversion is a good idea.
This disrespect is unneeded.
Sorry, I realised you posted above me after I pressed enter, it does look a bit like a subtweet there. Wasn't intentional, I do disagree with you but I don't mean any personal disrespect to you as an individual.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827714#Comment_3827714
Don’t basic attacks force survivors into the dream world currently?
They do, and that's why I don't think this is necessary. Technically speaking you can force survivors into the Dream World, it's just part of the basic gameplay loop instead of a dedicated ability.
There would be benefits to a manual Nyquil Beam like he used to have, since it'd push survivors into tripping snares more often to make getting a hit easier, but it's not required. It's just an idea for the people holding the opinion that any kind of reversion is a good idea.
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I see a lot of people who want elements of Old Freddy to return, but I think some of those takes may be a little underdeveloped. 90% of what he used to be just flat out shouldn't return for obvious reasons, and the remaining 10% would feel a little arbitrary.
Rather, I'd like to see him move forward with his current design, since it's better and more thematic. I've made posts about what I'd want to see before, but I think ultimately I want these three things the most:
- Snares and Pallets become basekit together, swapping between them and sharing an ammo pool for both like Clown's bottles.
- Massive rework and overhaul to his addons that focus on giving him more illusory objects in the dream world, all of which disappear when touched and cause the survivor to scream. Higher rarity addons can give extra effects as well, befitting their rarity.
- Freddy can teleport to completed generators. Always been annoying he can't do this.
While there are a few more tweaks that might be helpful - number tweaks to channelling time or movement speed and the like, or other small elements like that - those are the main things I'm hoping for. If we get those, everything else is just icing.
The only remaining thing from his original design that could come back, the 10% I referred to above, is a way of manually forcing survivors into the Dream World, and I wouldn't mind seeing that since it'd complement his current design fairly well. To do this, I'm imagining the devs would have to give him something like a Vecna spell wheel, where he selects between his illusory objects, his teleport, and the manual Dream World ability. Maybe that'd be too complex, maybe not, who can say. It's not necessary but it would be a nice nod towards his original power.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827314#Comment_3827314
Distortion, Sole Survivor, and… Help! (Reread OP and didn't see anything) I'm assuming not Object?
Naturally, everyone's mileage may vary. I've had absolutely terrible luck trying to get Distortion to be useful, so it's pretty dead. I've moved on to Object.
Sole Survivor, if included in the 3 aura blockers, has a steep requirement, as you know. So let me paint this picture. Even if we use current Distortion, 4x Distortion can show zero aura's with lethal in play. Can 4x Sole? Nah, it really can't. Sole Survivor is/will always be a solo'q perk, which Im surprised hasn't been attacked like Distortion was with all the rampant 'rats' that apparently plague the game.
If Object is one of the trinity, then in the same scenario, the killer sees everyone's aura, but all 4 survivors also see the killer. This essentially counters, by @bjorksnas 's calculations, like 67 things. I'm curious if this needs a nerf or if this even matters to anyone?
Old Distortion had one thing above the rest: reliability. Now, it's see them when they see you, or gen build.
Thanks for reading! Actually enjoying the various perspectives. These are just my thoughts.
The three I'm referring to are Distortion, Boon: Shadow Step, and Off The Record, and I'll explain what I mean a little bit to make sure we're on the same page.
The way I see it, each of the three viable (clarifying here that Sole Survivor is not a viable aura blocking perk, lol) aura blocking perks has a specific use case or two, and players should hypothetically be weighing which use case is most beneficial to them when choosing their perks at the loadout screen.
If they want to protect against Lethal or other early-game aura reading, and/or they want to protect from mid-chase aura effects, Distortion shines. It still starts with a token so it protects against Lethal, and it still hides scratch marks so it's great for fooling something like I'm All Ears or Predator. It's less good at protecting from random mid-match auras, like BBQ, but it still does that somewhat well.
If they want to be able to do certain actions (like generator repair or healing) with relative safety from mid-match random auras, like stated above, that's when Shadow Step comes in. It isn't good at protecting from stuff early on and fundamentally cannot protect from Lethal, but with a totem set up, you can do a gen or finish a heal with reasonable protection from auras. If that's your main concern as a player, you'd bring Shadow Step. Since this perk also hides scratch marks, it works reasonably well in chase, but its range restriction makes it more of a sidegrade to Distortion in that regard.
If they want protection while they're at their most vulnerable, to ensure they aren't sniped by a random aura after an unhook and while resetting, Off The Record is the best call. Since this is also an anti-tunnel perk due to its Iron Will and Endurance effects, it really shines in that niche but suffers for the other two use cases we've discussed.
Before the nerf, none of this applied, because Distortion did all of the use cases, and it did them all perfectly with no downsides. Now, it's still the most consistent and reliable, but there's at least some reason to consider the other two perks.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827314#Comment_3827314
The hyperbole aside killers have reliable aura reading to a point where they can spend more time reading survivor auras than not. You could argue against the semantics of calling this wallhacks but for the purpose of this topic the definition applies.
The other perks (some of which I personally like) that block aura reading are saddled with heavy restrictions or activation conditions that don’t allow them to function as consistently or reliably as old Distortion. It’s disingenuous to speak as if they do.
Do they, though? Setting aside specifically the perk Weave Attunement, all killer aura reading perks have restrictions and conditions and/or timers on them, such that even a full build of aura perks only provides intermittent wallhacks. Don't get me wrong, aura perks are very good, but they're not at the point of providing more aura reading than not even when stacked together with all your perk slots.
To your second point, Distortion being as consistent and reliable as it was is the entire reason it got changed. Because killer aura perks are not that persistent, being able to completely shut down all of them with one perk was both kind of questionable in terms of raw balance and disastrous for perk variety. Why ever bother weighing the upsides and downsides of aura blocking perks if one of them had no downsides and all upsides?
Distortion is still reliable and consistent, that's what the thread is about. There's more reason to consider Shadow Step and Off The Record, depending on what specific auras you're wanting to block the most, but Distortion is still the most reliable and consistent of them. Like I said, it's just not perfect, which is fine.
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I see a lot of people saying they want elements of Old Freddy back, but I genuinely have no idea what that could even mean here.
Stuff like passive slowdown, constant aura reading, and the inability to affect survivors in any way while they're awake are all obviously non starters and can't come back, so what does that even leave? Just the manual transition into the dream world bolted on to his current power?
That's workable, I guess, but it seems a little arbitrary and I'm not sure it'd really improve him all that much. There'd be the logistical concern of how to map that onto his controls, too, but there are ways around that like the Vecna wheel.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827320#Comment_3827320
While it isn’t a 1:1 ratio, you must understand DBD is a PvP game regardless. There must be enticement to keep players—because they aren’t preprogrammed logarithms—interested in playing the game. Both roles have been handicapped, but one role (killer) has been handicapped with advantages while the other (survivor) is receiving more disadvantages. What do you think happens in a situation like that? Hint: People play as the role that has advantages.
What does that actually mean in this context, though?
Survivors still have tools to defend against aura reading, if that's something they want. Distortion is still one of them, even. What exactly is being taken away from them here? What's their significant disadvantage?
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827580#Comment_3827580
Champion of light and residual manifest (I didn't count blast mine because its a full stun during the full time you are blinded so it doesn't do much)
Ahhh, I see what you're saying. I'd argue Champion of Light is only partially countered since you still get more distance while blinding, but I getcha.
Regarding Blast Mine - you're still stunned, but you also still see the aura of the person who set the mine, so I'd argue it breaks out in the killer's favour overall.
Either way, it doesn't change the core of your point and I agree with you, just wondered what I was missing.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827305#Comment_3827305
The logic here doesn't work its an asymmetrical game, the sides can't be compared 1:1 to each other because they are not equal (aka asymmetrical)
Even if it was 1:1 for some reason lets talk about scale
Survivor perks and items countered : 5
Killer perks counted by distortion : 25, killer addons, 42
So lets tally it up, perk that counters 5 things vs perk that counters… 67 things. Thats a lotta things… for 1 perk to counter
Killers knowing where survivors are is strong but it keeps a better flowing gameplay loop and reduces the total amount of stacked slowdown in killer builds. I think the devs know this too and to keep the game entertaining and moving along they give a good mix of aura perks for whatever people would prefer to use to find survivors which on its own doesn't do anything unless you then go chase the survivor or plan to use that info later like figuring out which gen to pop. Plus having a different category of perks means that most builds will end up containing a few of them which means less slowdown. Frankly the whole idea of 'aura perk winter" is never gonna come to pass and if it did I'd expect "slowdown perk summer" that would follow to make people beg to revert it.
I agree with you overall, but I'm curious - what's the fifth thing that Lightborn counters?
I count four - Flashlights, Flashbangs, Firecrackers, and Blast Mine. What am I missing?
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I've always found the sort of historical revisionism surrounding 3-gens to be kind of interesting, because I don't think people are even doing it on purpose, I think Skull Merchant just caused enough of a problem that everyone forgot.
The truth of the matter is that 3-genning existed long before Skull Merchant, and we even had periods of the game where it was almost as bad as she was, so she wasn't even the worst offender by that large of a margin. Having a permanent mechanic to ensure it can't happen again is a good thing, because it has happened multiple times in the past. Nothing is stopping the other killers that are good at patrolling tight clusters of gens from trying to stall the match if we only play whack-a-mole with whatever's causing the biggest problem at that moment.
The current system is fine. I'd like to see the perk Eruption adjusted to accommodate it, but that's really the only problem.
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@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826948#Comment_3826948
idk about you but if I have WoO equipped and I'm on a gen looking around I can definitely see I have options to run to beforehand. Maybe that's not beneficial to you but to me that's a heckuva lot of info right at the ready.
You can get that exact same info by just keeping an eye out and looking around yourself while you're approaching that gen, though.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827258#Comment_3827258
So lightborn also deserves a nerf by this logic?
This is a terrible rationalization for a nerf, let alone deleting one of the only reliable counter plays to an increasingly large number of aura reads available to killer.
The game isn't intended for the killer to have nearly constant wall hacks on survivor locations, and not having any way to deal with that is going to eventually either break the game or result in sweeping nerfs to aura perks. These distortion posts seem to be celebrating the former without realizing the later is inevitable now that the reliable counter is being removed.
There are three reliable counters to aura reading, one of which is Distortion, as I laid out.
Killers also definitely very much do not have nearly constant wall hacks either, for the record.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/430842/my-hopes-for-the-shapes-changes
i am pretty sure that they're substantial. i think funniest part is if that they only nerf tombstone piece and judith tombstone and touch nothing else. that would give me a good laugh. Sadako-style changes.
How do you mean? He's under the "Killer Tweaks" thing, so we know it's not a full update, like Freddy's getting since he's labelled under "Killer Update".
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@YayC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826899#Comment_3826899
You're right it was far too good, that's why it became meta over night and you couldn't go a play session without seeing the perk. Oh wait, no it wasn't and it's usage has barely even nudged if at all. Outside of one Hens video I haven't seen a CC run this consistently or even played against in a SINGLE TIME since it's change on the PTB.
But hey, I guess just reencouraging everyone to run 4 slowdowns 24/7 is much more enjoyable than some actual variety in the matches.
Does a perk really need to be overrepresented in matches to get changed?
I'd rather BHVR just change perks that end up too strong before they snowball into giant problems plaguing the community for months, personally.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826983#Comment_3826983
There are countless improvements that could be made to the game for the same amount of effort as went into nerfing this perk. You don't have to go further than the known issues section of the patch notes to see there were better things for them to spend their time doing. The serpent addon for wraith being bugged and not providing uncloak speed boosts after kicking a pallet is an obvious contender.
I mean, do you know that is the same amount of effort? If it's a known bug it does kind of imply they decided it'd take too long to fix for this patch, doesn't it?
I genuinely don't know myself, but it doesn't really seem like something worth getting worked up over either. It's a small tweak in a bugfix patch, and even that bugfix patch had more significant changes in it as well.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826971#Comment_3826971
If the change is inconsequential then why was it worth making in the first place. Someone had to program in the exceptions, test the change to make sure it worked, and someone (likely) had to review that change before it could be approved for live, in addition to any other bureaucratic red tape bs that some project manager created. The effort they put into doing that could have been put into a small change that is actually consequential
To make sure the perk works the way they intended? I just said that.
It probably didn't take that long, and Inner Focus got a proper change fairly recently, so they're still in the monitoring phase. From a priority weighing perspective, the quick and easy change that has less impact can absolutely happen before the long and difficult change that has more impact.
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I see this change, and what I think is that they just wanted to tweak it quickly to make sure it works the way they intended, rather than thinking it's too strong and needs to be nerfed.
It's a bit of a mistake to filter every change through that framework, in my opinion. Not every change is a buff or a nerf, and of the ones that are, not all of them are made just because the thing is too weak or too strong respectively. There's more that goes into these things than that.
That being said, this change seems fairly inconsequential to me, not really worth paying much attention to. Won't move the needle on the perk's strength or use cases much.
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I mean, why, though?
Neither are problematic, at least in terms of revealing pallets and windows. There's no reason to get rid of either.
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@Vellioh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826218#Comment_3826218
Sadly no. The problem is that they keep reworking maps and are relying on players to find the new spots their unknowingly adding into the game every time.
Do you have any examples? I'm really curious what new spots have cropped up.
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Have I missed something? I could've sworn all the spots where traps could be hidden beneath terrain were patched out, and there's none of them left.
There's barely even grass to hide traps in anymore, at least on most maps. Did a few new bugged spots pop up while I was taking a few-month break?
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There's a couple good options available to you with that basic shell, I think.
If you want a flat replacement for Distortion, your two options are Off The Record and Shadow Step. Both are viable and good, but have different upsides/downsides, so consider carefully.
If you want other stealth perks, Iron Will works very well with your Resilience for good stealth while injured, and Lucky Star got a very nice buff recently, as others have pointed out.
If you want to lean into chase rather than stealth, you could run Lithe to pair with your Resilience, Finesse to give you vault speed when healthy as well, Champion of Light (+ a flashlight obviously) to gain tons of distance at every pallet, Sprint Burst to just delay chases entirely, or Dead Hard if you're confident you can time it.
If you want general all-rounder perks, Deja Vu will fit in every build and always excel, Empathy is great tracking and will slightly combo with your We'll Make It, Resurgence is good survivability, Strength in Shadows is exceptional reliable healing, and Alert is fantastic tracking that also helps out in chase.
If you're open to full builds, I'll recommend something like Overzealous, Inner Strength, Counterforce, flex pick with a map for tracking totems. Surprisingly consistent and pretty fun, it has a built in side objective that actually rewards you.