jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874100#Comment_3874100
hooking is not spreading pressure. spread pressure is injuring multiple survivors before hooking anyone and typically, spreading pressure involves slugging but primary objective is to keep survivors healing other survivors while you chase and down one person(Tunneling)
The typical iconic perk used to be sloppy butcher to do this but with its duration of 90 seconds and New vigil destroying mangled, it's borderline becoming ineffective. I used to LOVE playing sloppy butcher+old Thanatophobia in my builds. Keeping entire team injured with 4% thanatophobia on healing+repair and indefinable mangled was amazing game-delay. Survivors that did not heal got slugged and your hits had more meaning.
In today landscape, i find spreading pressure ineffective because good players just pre-run shift-w. Moving around the map individual takes too long for many killers and if your spending 30 second hold-w from one side of the map with a pallet drop here and there, your not really progressing much of the game. This is couple with the fact that many SWF run 4 med-kit with Red syringe instant heal and Shoulder of broken where tunnelling people early is physically impossible.
Spreading injuries is a form of pressure, definitely. Hooking is just the best form of pressure you can get, not the only form. It doesn't involve slugging and tunnelling inherently, that's another layer you're adding in there, but spreading injuries does count as a form of (admittedly fairly light) pressure because it encourages reaction.
I also don't think spreading injuries is that effective in the current landscape, overall. You can make it work with the right killers and builds, but its heyday is long past, I think.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874100#Comment_3874100
Generally you'd be right... but that would also imply your getting a new target on hook as fast as they get OFF hook in order to constantly be pressuring more than one person. If a killer is downing and hooking people that fast, they often get put on the chopping block ala Chucky. We hear alot of "This killer gets easy downs" even if they have no map mobility or anything. It makes me wonder what is the goalpost here? What's the IDEAL spot?
I remember someone had posted a Tru3talent clip afew months ago with him playing Xeno on Glenvale. It was one of the shortest matches I had seen in AWHILE with every gen cranked out at record speed. Match was over in under 4 minutes. I could understand if the chases were really long... but they weren't. There was basically 0 looping and I don't think a single pallet was even used, meaning there wasn't really any way to speed the downs up any. People kinda just wrote it off because they don't like Tru3, but... If ANYONE had gone against that squad with the same loadout, would it have been ANY different? I feel "just apply pressure" was just a joke that match. I'll try to find the clip so you can see what I'm talking about. I'm not a Tru3talent fan, but I can still see that that match was kinda ridiculous for the sake of the sheer speed.
Well, in my experience the biggest problem people have getting downs before an unhook happens (outside of like, instasaves, you can't always spread pressure but it's a good thing to shoot for) isn't anything to do with their killer's power, it's just that they don't have the information to get into the chase immediately.
A killer doesn't have to be in release Chucky realms of overtuned to get into a chase quickly if you know exactly where you're going. It's why I'm a big supporter of information perks, they let you get into a chase very quickly and if you pick the right ones + support them with your own gamesense, you know to get into the best chase quickly as well.
It doesn't do you any good to just wander absently from the hook, or even to default to generator patrol, because that doesn't get you into a chase quick enough. Ideally, you should already know where you're going next before you even get the hook, or failing that have some kind of hook-info perk to work from after the fact.
You also don't necessarily need 100% uptime- there's still heals and travel time back to the generator to account for, after all. Plus, let's assume that you don't manage to get the down + hook before those two survivors get back on gens. If it's only a little while after those survivors get back on gens… the hook drags them off again anyway, so it's still very disruptive to their progress overall. Quick chases matter but they don't need to be that quick.
As for that video, no, nothing would've changed that outcome, but you're putting the emphasis on the wrong thing there. It's not that spreading pressure wouldn't work for anyone else there, it's that that specific build is so overpowered that you need luck to beat it, not strategy or skill.
Thankfully, genrush builds like that are exceptionally rare, so they don't typically factor into these conversations. Still needs fixing, though.
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I can give you my understanding of that topic, at least!
To me, "pressure" in DBD is best defined (on the killer side, at least) as "forcing survivors to take actions that aren't generator repair". By "spreading" your pressure, you're putting that force onto multiple survivors at once, and forcing them to react with something that isn't directly progressing their own objective.
The best kind of pressure you can get in this game is hooks, since they inherently occupy multiple survivors. With one person on a hook, one person typically has to come save, and if you can get into a chase before that happens, the person you're chasing has to run away from you- leaving only one free to do gens.
That, to me, is spreading pressure. Any time you have multiple survivors occupied, any time there's only one or potentially no survivors able to freely do gens, you're spreading pressure.
There are some cheap, shortcut-esque ways of applying pressure, don't get me wrong, but the basic fundamentals don't require you to do anything in that vein.
Also, y'know, people will complain about just about anything, so don't put too much stock in complaints. If you don't do anything objectionable some players will just act like you did anyway.
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I don't think it's a good idea, personally.
The way I see it, the reasons people would want to see their MMR number fall into three broad camps, with only two being particularly relevant.
The first is simple idle curiosity. The kind of person who'd see the MMR number, go "huh, neat", and then basically ignore it because they know it doesn't really matter for any practical purpose. I think it's fair to generally set this camp aside because they generally aren't the ones actively asking for MMR, and because, y'know, idle curiosity isn't necessarily a compelling reason all on its own.
The second is those who want to treat their MMR like a progression system. They know it rates their skill (though they may misunderstand what that means), they know they want to get better, ergo, they should try and make their MMR number go up. Since the MMR system isn't designed to be treated this way, this would really just reinforce bad habits that already exist- winning by any cost and never improving the fundamentals, leading to being much more adversely affected if any of the stuff you're leaning on gets nerfed or changed.
This alone isn't a huge reason not to show MMR, but it also means it can't be a reason to pursue it either. The thing people think they'd get wouldn't manifest; what they'd actually get would be useless at best, harmful at worst.
The third is the worst example, those who think it'd be useful for discussions. We can already see some individuals in this thread making this argument - that people with higher MMR would necessarily have better credibility in debates, and should be listened to more than those with lower MMR.
This, point blank, is just wrong. MMR flat out doesn't measure anything related to someone's arguments in a debate, and it isn't meant to. It doesn't measure their knowledge of the game as a whole, it doesn't measure their ability to correctly predict the outcomes of suggested changes, it doesn't measure their knowledge of game design as a whole or DBD's design philosophy in particular- hell, MMR doesn't even measure someone's individual skill with the fundamentals of the game, because it isn't meant to, that isn't the skill being measured.
Again, these outcomes probably wouldn't be that much worse than what we already have… but they would just be worse with no real upside, in my opinion.
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I think the issue with this suggestion is that an inability to Exhaust survivors was never really the issue with either perk.
Post 6.1.0 Dead Hard was, as far as I can gather, mostly changed purely for experience-related reasons. A lot of players found it frustrating and overbearing to bait DH in every chase, and while I never really had that experience myself, I can understand why something would be changed on those grounds.
You could argue that more good Exhaustion tools means killer players wouldn't need to bait DH, but at that point we circle around the conversation around whether you should ever NEED to run specific perks just to handle something overbearing on the opponent's side. Probably not a safe bet to touch DH when it currently works perfectly fine, it's an entirely worthwhile perk.
Made For This had the major issue of stacking with other tools to create truly unfair levels of Haste that led to some survivors just not being catchable at all. I'm fully aware what the popular consensus was and is on this perk, and to be clear, I disagree with it: MFT on its own was never all that problematic since almost every killer had ways of dealing with it just in their power's basekit, and the ones that didn't could just play smarter to adapt.
You could revert MFT if you made an additional few changes to it to support it, though. I'd pitch it something like this:
- Made For This provides a 3% boost to movement speed while injured and running
- Made For This deactivates if you are Exhausted
- Made For This will not increase your movement speed above 3%; if something else has a higher number than that MFT simply doesn't do anything, and if something has a lower number than that MFT will raise it to 3% but no higher
Effectively, two major changes: It doesn't have Endurance at all, and you can't stack it with other tools to give crazy sustained boosts. It'd be a hyper-committal tool that defines your build because it necessarily boxes a ton of other tools out and has anti-synergy with them.
Still. That'd probably make people mad, so I don't see it happening. MFT isn't even bad right now, it's perfectly fine, so this kind of change isn't even necessary, just doable.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873843#Comment_3873843
While you're occupying that survivor in chase, the hooked survivor gets unhooked and either stays injured or heals in 2 seconds with Resurgence or We'll Make It. Those two then tag team the nearest generator and finish it quickly. You'll have already lost 2 or 3 gens at this point against good survivors. You're better off taking a pallet or two from the person you're chasing then being a back to the hook Harry. The pace of efficient survivors is too fast for what you're describing
Assuming they have those perks, yeah, they can get back on the gen pretty quickly. The thing is, though, in this scenario you don't get better results from going back to the hook- in fact, you get worse results, because the two unoccupied survivors in the second scenario don't even have the combined travel time + unhook animation + heal + travel time back timesink, they're just doing generators while you return to the hook without any interruption.
Obviously, there's nuance depending on the scenario you're in. Sometimes going back to the hook and chasing the unhooker is the right call. Generally speaking, though, the basic fundamentals of good killer play involve spreading your pressure so multiple survivors are occupied at once, that's how you win when versing efficient teams.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873837#Comment_3873837
That's a lot to ask of most killers on the roster given how safe most maps are unless the survivors are seriously outskilled. Most maps have an overabundance of pallets and easily chainable strong tiles.
That doesn't make that much of a difference to this principle, outside of making chases generally longer.
Even if the survivor you're chasing after getting a hook immediately runs to a safe area, you're still occupying three survivors at once. That chase being difficult isn't like, good for you, but it doesn't change the value you'd be getting from the hook to begin with- just means you're less likely to have the chase finished before the unhook, especially since most survivors like to save sooner rather than later.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873619#Comment_3873619
Because it's taking a situation that's already bad for the killer, and adding extra disadvantages to it. Before the anti-camping meter, killers who camped (other than chainsaws and Myers) just lost by doing that. Because the way it worked was everyone else was on gens, a healthy person would hook trade, the killer would camp that person, rinse and repeat a time or 2 more, and all the gens would be done. Then it was just a matter of getting the free endgame save. Now we're being told, "Not only can you not camp hooks, but making the correct* play and staying away from them leads to people with Resurgence or We'll Make It instantly healing off hook, and hopping straight back on gens. And if you keep coming back to hook, you still have to deal with 2 hook states of anti-tunnel, because the anti-camp prevented you from 2-hooking them." You leave killers no good options.
To be fair, the good option here is to already have someone else in chase, ideally already being carried to the hook, when the unhook happens. You don't actually have to care about any of these tools if you're already generating more pressure to keep the team on the back foot.
We'll Make It and Resurgence are good - very good even - but they aren't so good you need to deny the survivors any ability to use them or you'll lose outright. Ultimately, you should probably expect survivors to be healed when you next chase them after an unhook, so all you're "taking" here is a few extra seconds on generators. If you're already in a chase and close to getting a hook by that point, you can make up for that by dragging survivors off generators again pretty quickly.
The thing you need to be doing is forcing reactions, you can have ultra fast chases but if you aren't actually using them to generate pressure like that it won't help as much.
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@Camilll3e said:
Quick & quiet counters I'm all ears fyi
Late response, but also a good point! For chase-breaking perks, you'd be more at risk of something like Predator than I'm All Ears because Quick & Quiet is a counter to that one perk and it's pretty common for those builds.
Still, it warrants mentioning that if you don't have Q&Q specifically, Distortion counters I'm All Ears.
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The things you're talking about are the things that take away player agency, not the fixes.
Prior to the AFC system, if you were facecamped, you had no agency at all. The killer literally just stood in one spot, and you could do nothing about it. In the most extreme examples (such as, say, Leatherface in the basement) your teammates didn't even have any agency because they couldn't even try for a save.
Prior to the basekit anti-tunnel (which isn't even that strong on its own, for the record), if the killer wanted you dead and you/your teammates didn't bring one of literally two perks to contest it, you had no agency. You were downed as soon as your feet touched the floor, that's it, no two ways about it.
3-genning is something that had the most agency preserved, but the flipside of that is that you also still have the most agency to 3-gen here. Like, you can 3-gen, you have that agency, you just have to be doing it to win instead of stall.
It'd be the same if a basekit UB ever made it to the game. You'd have the agency to slug, you'd just have to play around there being a timer to make maximum value from it— and the survivors wouldn't have their agency taken away as much either.
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873221#Comment_3873221
So basically like any competitive game ever made?
The difference there is that when a game actually has visible MMR, it usually IS a progression system, so people treating it like one is completely appropriate. It's part of a ranked mode, it has seasons and resets and coloured badges tied to a ranked ladder you're supposed to want to climb to at least some degree.
If people brought that mindset to DBD, that would be a problem, because this game's matchmaking ISN'T a progression system in that way. We don't have a ranked mode, we just have a normal matchmaking system.
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Using BHVR's definition for "rework" I honestly don't think there are any killers left who need one.
The killer I think would benefit from a substantial update the most would be Myers, though. He got changes recently and they did help, but there's a lot more that could be done for the best version of Myers imo.
Him or Trapper. Same reasoning applies.
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@Rulebreaker said:
Out of pettiness we feel we should throw sole survivor down here. That aside we'd add somethings:
Distortion can also figure out add ons (such as Glowing Concoction or scratch mirror). It won't constantly protect you, but gives information you can potentially use.
Off the record may hide you from nurses calling, but doesn't hide the one healing you. If you have a medkit or self care then it works as you say, but if another heals you they are revealed (and by proxy you).
Object should be burnt into ashes and thrown in hell. This is completely out own bias and should be taken seriously.
Fair clarification on Off The Record, it's more a protective layer for healing yourself. Could've made that clearer myself, but things slip through the cracks on big posts, haha
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I feel like the current version would be fine if they just made it work within 32 meters instead of 16, and instead of only hiding scratch marks/blood/grunts of pain, it should also hide your footstep sounds and aura for the 10 seconds. So now basically if anyone even remotely near you takes a hit you have 10 seconds to get away virtually undetectable.
I feel like that would wrap around to almost being too good, is the issue, and it still wouldn't be all that reliable.
I think it'd be a safer and more guaranteed bet to rework the trigger entirely so it can be a bit healthier.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871504#Comment_3871504
My assessment was fair. I guess my question becomes: Why? I could point to the weaker version of Ruin that deleted itself after 1 survivor died, or Thana which gives you pitiful slowdown after 1 survivor dies, and say how bad those are. Or draw comparisons with survivor perks, like if DS just turned off after a certain number of gens had been done. But I think hearing a simple explanation for why it's a good idea would be the best. Why should killer perks disappear after 1 survivor dies?
Killer perks in general shouldn't. Perks that are specifically very powerful slowdown designed around the 1v4, like Grim Embrace and Pain Resonance, maybe could.
Ruin and Thana aren't that powerful nor designed around the 1v4 nearly as much, and DS is a completely different kind of perk so obviously that doesn't apply there either.
Grim Embrace and Pain Resonance, though, share a design philosophy that makes them very overbearing if someone's tunnelled out early. They're designed to be strong while spreading pressure and they are, so the question becomes, should you still get those perks in particular after already putting yourself in a massively advantageous position? Do you really need that much overkill?
I'm not even necessarily putting all my weight behind the position that they must be changed this way as soon as possible, I just think there's a lot of reasonable merit behind the suggestion. It's worth seriously considering.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871023#Comment_3871023
So we just shouldn't allow the game to ever be a 3v1? The killer shouldn't get rewarded for anything?
I feel like the more fair interpretation is "the killer shouldn't have access to perks that are already very strong in the 4v1 when they're in a 3v1", personally.
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@UndeddJester said:
I have thought about this perk a number of times and couldn't think of anything to make it more useful. It's idea is to have it where someone effectively takes a protection hit for you helps you get away...
Its a bit like a self Babysitter, the most prominent case would be if someone takes a hit while unhooking you... but the obvious problem is if that happens, then if the killer chases your ally, you don't need Self Preservation... and if they chase you, Self Preservation doesn't really do anything to save you...
I like the suggestion here in that you abandon gens to save yourself (I'm a believer you should keep the spirit of the perk intact)...
The immediate concern I have with this suggestion is this seems a bit too conservative... 16m isn't far, and this perk only works if you're injured, so the killer has to kick the gen with you in range, where the killer will likely hear you anyway, and ofc it's completely demolished by Nowhere to Hide...
You did inspire me though to think in terms of gens instead of survivors... maybe it can work a little like a survivor version of Trail of Torment?
If you're injured, repairing a generator for 5 seconds marks that generator and the next time you let go of the generator you gain those bonuses until you do a conspicuous action, a rushed action or are healed.
You've still gotta be mindful of aura perks and footstep sounds, and it fits the theme of saving yourself without advancing the goal of anyone else.
For the record, Self-Preservation doesn't actually require you to be injured currently, it's just that two of its three effects are only relevant if you're injured. It hides scratch marks either way.
I replaced grunts of pain being hidden with footstep sounds to make it more universally useful as well, though I could see the radius being increased a little since it is fairly short.
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@UndeddJester said:
I also hate the fact it's a hard counter… hard counters tend to be kinda lame as a game design… but even though that does irk me, the reality is it's just not strong enough to warrant losing it's stun protection. The fact survivors still have pallets to stun and save with gives them tools to fight killers for saves, so Lightborn remains very situational and not a good perk.
However I do like part of your suggestion as a buff to Lightborn… Buff Lightborn to have more perk interactions! (and help survivors with blind challenges)
Lightborn
Unlike other beasts of The Fog, you have adapted to light.
- Grants immunity from the Blindness Effect from Flashlights, Firecrackers, Flash Grenades, and Blast Mine.
- The Auras of Survivors who blind you by any means are revealed to you for 6/8/10 seconds.
"These monsters... they adapt! They emerge with strange new abilities." — Vigo, Vigo's Journal
The wording is careful here to say the "Blindness Effect" not "blind". You still have Flashlights and other light sources "blind" the killer, grant the score events and the beam animations as normal… but as you suggest make the killer immune to the actual "Blindness Effect", which includes being stunned while carrying a survivor. Also note that this DOES NOT stop the stun from Blast Mine, as that is a separate stun from Blast Mine not linked to the Blind Effect.
This would mean a survivor blinding the killer gives them the aura read, and allows the killer to act like they are blinded and continue to get value from the perk. It'd only be when an actual save occurs that the jig is up… which would be a nice bait a switch to make Lightborn actually a semi-decent perk…
This would also synergise with Shadowborn, which gives a cool potential build idea, and allows Killers to actually fight bully squads.
This would also alleviate a lot of the annoyance for Survivors on challenges, and the cool interaction is Champion of Light, where instead of the perk being hard countered to do literally nothing, you can still be slowed by Champion of Light, but you don't have the blindness effect. This I think would make Lightborn actually healthy and not COMPLETELY infallible instead of the dumb hard counter it is.
I would definitely be down for this version as well, since it'd give more usefulness to blind interactions that aren't the literal effect or the stun, as you say.
I'd still personally like to see it not be a "you can't be flashlight saved no matter what" perk, but I can understand the position that it's too situational to lose that.
Ultimately, I think the thing we can agree on is that Lightborn both being a hard counter to flashlight saves and preventing interesting off-meta picks like Champion of Light from working/preventing "blind the killer" archive challenges from being doable is too much and addressing that part would at least be an improvement for everyone.
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It's a good perk, no denying that.
However, I personally find the 40 seconds of gen blocking tends to come a fair bit later in the trial, when progress has already been made on both sides. There's often someone to heal (and always one person to save from the hook for that matter), so resetting can be a good use of that time.
Not to imply it isn't useful, because it is - it's one of the strongest killer perks in the game right now. I just find it's not quite as overbearing as it seems on paper most of the time. A good chunk of the timer is usually used up by resetting health states and the like, leaving only about half of it for the survivor being chased to last while others do totems or something.
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@fussy said:
So, I was thinking about what I'd do to preserve it being useful and worth bringing while toning down that aspect of it, like what was done to Distortion
Except the part, where Distortion players were harmful for the team and Lightborn literally says "guys, go do gens, there is no point in trying".
And I really wanna know, when you guys will stop put "=" in between ONE survivor's perk, which denied whole perks and addons category (and still does, just in more healthy way), and ONE killer's perk, which denies one item and few perks? Especially funny to see it from person, who told me "oh you can't compare killer and survivor healing perks, they are different", but somehow you can compare two perks, that do two absolutely differing things? I see, I see.
Also suggest make perk, which whole and only point is removing blind ANIMATION on your part is wild, even for you.However, if survivors want to get a save when you're picking someone up, that's still possible, so you have to take extra measures to prevent it.
It's my favourite part. Remember you took a perk, buddy? Yeah, do some work to prevent its effect. Or just stay still to activate the perk and… wow see no animation of blinding! Truly brilliant design.
Next suggestion will be make Spirit Fury have only animation of pallet breaking, but you actually need to break a pallet after it?
At least it was really fun to read.I'm not drawing a one to one parallel, to be clear, I'm pointing to the one similarity both perks did have, which is that they are both a counter-pick that is 100% perfect and 100% passive. In general, I don't much love both of those things being true at once, even if Lightborn isn't a huge problem right now.
As for the second part, you did bring a perk! That perk allows you to completely disregard flashlights in chase, and offers you a slight bonus if you get caught off guard and get hit by a flashlight save. It's shifting the point of bringing the perk away from just ignoring flashlight saves to more of a chase-based tool, not removing the point of bringing it entirely.
I feel like maybe you're not too clear on what I'm suggesting? When you get hit by a flashlight right now, your screen gets completely covered by a visual effect that stops you from being able to see anything. With my suggestion, your screen would look the same as it always does, which allows you to track the survivor trying to blind you much easier. It's not an animation difference, it's a tangible difference in what being blinded mechanically does to you, which with Lightborn would be "nothing except give you an aura read".
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436641/lightborn-partial-rework-suggestion
lightborn is killer perk. it costs 1/4 of the killer build to use. distortion costs 1/16. the commitment for killer is way higher than survivor. big no to rework. i sometimes use the perk on Nurse because i do not like flashbang+background player spamming.
I'm not convinced that the killer role having fewer perk slots than the survivor role is a good enough justification to let a perfect counter like that exist, personally.
Or, more accurately, I don't think it makes that situation less questionable. I think it's still completely reasonable to think about how to make the perk a little less perfect at its job, the same reasons you'd want to do that for Distortion definitely apply to Lightborn even if in a slightly lesser state.
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@BroRespectTheBoop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870543#Comment_3870543
"
Killer Aura Reading & Screaming Perks"Off the record is limited to two 80 second sessions in a single match, and relies on you being hooked in order to even use it, plus it isnt enough time to even do a single generator. No one runs Sole Survivor because it relies on your teammates dying. So again, your point is flawed.
BHVR heavily nerfed survivors only consistent way of blocking aura reading in Distortion. Then you claim "oh just hide in a locker", this solution is only useful for BBQ and Nowhere to hide, IF the killer isn't braindead and you're lucky enough to have a locker near your generator. Most killers with any game sense would check a locker near a gen thats clearly being worked on.
"Second your list of aura perks includes quite a few things that aren't aura perks" - My list clearly says aura and screaming perks, and the screaming ones I included reveal your location. Again, please read before making baseless accusations. My list wasnt complaining about how unreasonable they are or arent, it was mainly listing off the shear amount of options killers have to find survivors.
Aura reading is problematic in the sense that it removes the entire point of the hide and seek chase aspect and allows killers to easily hop into a new chase immediately. It completely removes the skill of having to track down a survivor by sound, blood pools and scratch marks to begin a chase.I'm just confused why you'd add screaming perks to the list, mostly.
Not just because this is a conversation about aura reading specifically, but also because aura + screaming doesn't account for all info perks either.
Plus, my point stands that if you're going to expand out into screaming perks, you should also include the counter-picks survivors have for screaming perks. It's misleading not to talk about all the options even if one or two aren't all that good- you aren't only selecting the good killer perks for your list, after all, so you should include the mediocre or bad picks on the survivor side too.
The bottom line is, aura reading doesn't remove the hiding portion of the game, it just makes it riskier. If you like hiding a lot, you'd bring counter-picks to killer information perks to make it safer for you to do. If you don't, you'd ostensibly be more okay with the killer being able to see you, so there being tools for them to do that shouldn't bother you.
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I don't mind the bubble itself as a visual cue but it shouldn't block auras, for sure.
The same goes for completing generators, it hamstrings perks like Bitter Murmur. If auras could be seen through those two bubbles, it'd be a lot less frustrating.
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@PleaseRewind said:
Fight fire with fire. I love aura perks on both sides.
For survivor I run Wicked, Kindred, Eyes of Belmont & Inner Focus. Gives me a good read on the killer for most of the match.
Ooh, fun build!
I might suggest Alert instead of Inner Focus, I swear by that perk when I want killer tracking. Deceptively high uptime.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The killer gives up a perk slot to use Lightborn. Lightborn like Shadowborn, Hubris, Hex: Two Can Play, require's the survivors to do something to the Killer to activate it, if they don't do anything to trigger it even after fiiguring it out that it's in play, the gameplay in the match shifts and adapts.
Lightborn also is the only current way for killer's to counter Flashbang saves, Killer's can position themselves to try and avoid Flashlight saves but Flashbang's have no restrictions when it comes to a pick up save.
Blastmine and Lightborn interacting is a great example of why this suggestion to change Lightborn so the stun goes through is bad, it sucks just outright in both feel and function, you loose alot of that aura read time because of the stun.
Instead of asking for Lightborn to be changed or have negatives, ask for other perk's that activate off Blind's, Shadowborn/Two Can Play, to be improved and be a more usable option in builds or by themselves over Lightborn.
Only changing the other blind perks wouldn't address the core issue of Lightborn being a perfect counter, though. That's the main reason I think a change would be appropriate, I don't think it's especially great design to be able to passively shut off an entire class of your opponent's tools with no input or restrictions.
I don't necessarily want to see Lightborn become a perk you have to go out of your way to activate, so I think just making it not a perfect counter anymore would be totally appropriate.
It's not as though you're lacking in options for dealing with survivors going for saves, after all.
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@BroRespectTheBoop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870146#Comment_3870146
So many options? Killers have 36 perks (not including Killer powers, addons and Killer Instinct) that allow you to find survivors by kicking gens, hooking survivors, breaking walls/pallets, breaking totems, opening lockers, finding survivors healing, and for survivors simply doing their objective.. not to mention countless other reasons. Meanwhile survivors have 1 completely gutted perk to block them and another that requires you to find a totem and stay within a 24 meter radius of it.
Survivor Aura Blocking Perks
Distortion - Whenever the Killer attempts to read your Aura, consumes -1 Token, Blocks your Aura from being read & Suppresses the creation of your Scratch Marks. For every 15 seconds spent in a Chase, Distortion recharges +1 Token, up to a maximum of 2 Tokens.
Boon: Shadowstep - Aura's & Scratch Marks are hidden from killer while within 24 meters of totem.
Killer Aura Reading & Screaming Perks
A Nurses Calling - Aura reading for healing
Alien Instinct - Basically BBQ but it reveals the furthest injured person on hook
Awakened Awareness - Aura reading when carrying a survivor
Barbecue & Chilli - Aura reading when hooking a survivor
Bitter Murmer - Aura reading simply for Survivors doing their only objective (finishing a gen)
Blood Warden - Aura reading for survivors standing in an exit gate
Darkness Revealed - Aura reading on all survivors near a locker after opening a locker
Deathbound - Survivor healing another survivor for a full health state screams and reveals location
Deerstalker - Aura reading for people slugged
Discordance - Aura reading when 2 or more survivors are working on a gen.
Dragon's Grip - Kick a gen, first survivor to interact with it will scream and gets exposed for 60 seconds
Eruption - Kick a gen, regress it by 10%, down a survivor and anyone working on that gen screams & reveals their aura
Friends 'til the End - Aura reading on obsession every time you hook a non obsession
Friends 'til the End - When you hook the obsession, causes random non obsession to scream and reveal location
Gearhead - Injure a survivor, get aura reading on any survivor that hits a "good" skill check while repairing
Grim Embrace - Hook 4 people., block all gens for 40 seconds and get aura reading on Obsession
Hex: Face the Darkness - Injure a survivor, all Survivors to scream every 25 seconds, aura revealed for 2 seconds each time for leaving terror radius.
Hex: Retribution - Aura reading of all survivors if cleansed.
Hex: Undying - Aura reading anytime a survivor goes near a dull totem
Human Green - Aura reading any time a survivor goes near a chest.
I'm All Ears - Aura reading any time a survivor uses a rush vault
Infectious Fright - Survivor screams if within terror radius when downing another survivor
Iron Maiden - Survivors exiting a locker scream and reveal location for 4 seconds + 30 seconds exposed.
Lethal Pursuer - Reveals all survivors for 9 seconds at the start of a trial, increases all other aura reading perks by +2 seconds
Lightborn - Aura reading on survivors attempting to blind.
Make Your Choice - Causes the unhooking survivor to scream and reveal location +60 seconds exposed
Nemesis - Aura reading on new obsession any time the obsession switches.
Nowhere To Hide - Aura reading around you any time you kick a generator
Predator - Aura reading for losing a chase.
Scourged Hook: Floods of Rage - Aura reading on all survivors anytime a survivor is unhooked from a scourged hook
Scourge Hook: Hangman's Trick - Aura reading on all survivors near scourged hooks while carrying a survivor
Shattered Hope - Aura reading on all survivors within boon totem range when destroying the totem
Territorial Imperative - Aura reading on all survivors entering the basement
THWACK! - Break a wall or pallet, cause all survivors nearby to scream and reveal location.
Ultimate Weapon -Open a locker, all survivors nearby scream and are revealed to you.
Weave Attunement - Aura reading on any survivor within 8 meters of a dropped item
Zanshin Tactics - Aura reading on a survivor that drops a palletI have a couple issues with this rebuttal, I hope you won't mind me going through them in a sort of rough order here.
First, your list of counters is missing options, which may very well be unintentional but still heavily skews your framing in an inaccurate way. If we're looking at aura blocking perks, there are four, not two; we have Distortion and Shadow Step as strong and worthwhile options, but we also have Off The Record in that camp too. We also have Sole Survivor, but admittedly, that perk is not very good, I didn't mention that one either.
However, the conversation isn't just about blocking auras, it's about responding to aura reading. So we should also add Object Of Obsession and just lockers in general to the conversation, as the person who responded to you already laid out.
Where I'll branch away from them is that I'll say, since we're talking about responding to aura reading as a concept, we should also include perks that tell you when the killer's approaching you, like Dark Sense, Premonition, Scene Partner, and arguably Spine Chill. How good you think any of these perks are is relevant, certainly, but it's still important to acknowledge they exist.
You could also be cheeky here and count stuff like Sprint Burst for letting you easily evade a killer approaching you, but things get a little messy if we get that indirect.
Second, your list of killer aura perks includes quite a few things that aren't aura perks…? There are a couple perks in here that are scream perks, not aura perks, and then also Discordance which isn't either of those. Still, if we're including scream perks on the killer side, we must also include the counter picks to that as well; Calm Spirit and Hardened.
Third, I've always found just dry lists of what aura perks are technically in the game to be really unconvincing as evidence aura reading is problematic, even when those lists are more accurate, because… most of them aren't all that good?
Maybe not most, but certainly I don't see a world where we can fairly complain about the unreasonable aura reading potential of Hangman's Trick, Darkness Revealed, Undying, and Human Greed, to give an example 'build'. Those perks just don't really provide much impact even judging them on the scale of aura reading perks in particular, except for Undying for reasons outside of its aura reading.
I could, perhaps, see a world where aura reading could be considered overbearing even though the individual perks are relatively well balanced just because all the currently available aura reading perks are really good…. but that isn't the world we currently live in. Players aren't actually using a huge chunk of this big list because they're not good, unpopular, or both.
Aura reading just isn't that big of a deal in the game right now. There are ways around it and you don't typically see all that much of it, in my experience.
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@Slan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436641/lightborn-partial-rework-suggestion
Nope. Lightborn is the only counter to the classig 4-man flashlight squad and many iterations of the classic bully squad. Its current state is perfect for that. If nobody has a flashlight it's a useless perk. And frankly, I don't want all my hooking possibilities thwarted by a lucky flashlight. So no, thanks but no.
@SoGo said:
So uno reverse against flashlights?
Edit:
Oh, wait, it wouldn't work against flashlight saves.
No.
The 3/4 flashlight sqads can go to hell, Lightborn is the only way to counter them without an aneurysm.
Lightborn is not the only counter to these things, it's just far and away the strongest because it works passively and is 100% perfect at doing it.
Personally, I think that's questionable. I don't think Lightborn is a super high priority, don't get me wrong, but I also won't be surprised whenever it inevitably does get changed.
So, with the changes I proposed, you'd still have all the other tools at your disposal - Franklin's, Infectious Fright, Forced Hesitation, just staring at a wall, etc - and Lightborn would still work for you because you'd get clear vision and an aura even if you make a mistake and actually drop the survivor you're picking up. That sounds like a good outcome to me.
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@exDbd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870146#Comment_3870146
well balanced LMFAO 🤣🤣🤣
Aw, I was hoping it wouldn't be that kind of conversation.
Fair enough, I gave it a shot!
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@exDbd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870138#Comment_3870138
the whole point of the post is not what I can do to counter I know what I can and can’t do. However I think all these aura reading perks are ruining the game. It’s not fair to survivors… are you a killer main? Why should I base my perks on trying to hide my aura do to killers abusing every aura reading perk* / add on in the game??
Well, the point of my response is more… are they ruining the game if you have so many options?
It'd be just as easy to point to any other class of perk and say the same thing, regardless of how many tools you have at your disposal to deal with them.
I play both roles but my suggestions come from the survivor perspective. In my experience, aura perks are among the least problematic things to see a killer bring- outside of a handful of exceptions like old Weave Attunement or current Nowhere To Hide, individual perks that are independently overtuned. The rest are all fairly well balanced and aren't that problematic to see a killer bring, in my opinion.
I run Distortion a bunch myself, for the record, it's a very solid perk.
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I'd strongly recommend revisiting Distortion, it's a very solid perk that'll both keep your aura hidden a noticeable amount of the time and give you information about what the killer is running.
You also have Shadow Step, for doing generators + healing without worry the killer's going to snipe you with an unexpected aura read, and Off The Record for resetting after an unhook in peace.
If you're a very confident looper, Object of Obsession will let you turn the aura read back around on the killer, but admittedly I'd not recommend that unless you are very confident.
Additionally, you can always just react to the aura by making distance from the killer, with Exhaustion perks or other chase perks. Something like Champion of Light provides good distance at the first dropped pallet, for example.
Aura reading really isn't that big of a deal, there are plenty of ways you can react to seeing aura perks that frequently.
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@biggybiggybiggens said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3869375#Comment_3869375
I don't know a single person IRL that looked at Trickster and took it seriously, so that chapter went down in history for me as the biggest let down of DBD until Skull Merchant anyway.. Legion is more exciting tbh.
Really? I thought All-Kill was one of the strongest concepts DBD's brought to the table in a long time, he's very well written imo.
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I don't know why you'd point to Trickster as evidence here, he's always been an excellent fit tonally, he's one of the killers I think BHVR did the best job with when it comes to justifying his presence in the game.
A better example would be Vecna, someone who is not from a horror franchise who was adapted to fit the game anyway. He's good evidence that BHVR can do this, though I don't know how far they can take that the further away you get from horror.
As for Vader specifically… I think DBD has a strained relationship to sci fi stuff like that. Alien and the Singularity are in the game, but it's clear they're approaching sci fi from a very different angle to something like Star Wars. I'm not sure if it'd fit, personally.
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I was considering saying Keys and Maps myself.
Both need to be able to perform in their niche without addons far better than they currently do, in my opinion. I'd pitch making the Token addons basekit for the keys, so they're a replacement for Bond. Not much, but far more useful than where they are now.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866272#Comment_3866272
If we're defining our win condition based solely on the MMR system (which I would argue is completely backwards, for the record), then we'd still be looking at MMR gain at the
endof the match, because that's the point at which you'd logically suggest someone has won or lost. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise.Ah, but this is where you make the mistake of assuming that the MMR system is, in any way, logical.
Lest we forget the 'If you ran the killer for five gens but then got caught and died in the end, was it really a good play?'-debacle.
I fully agree that it doesn't make practical sense, but that IS how the MMR system works. So when someone points to the MMR system to define a killer win, the MMR system considers every single kill a killer win, and every single escape a killer loss. The match outcome is simply a compression of those stats.
Ah, I see, it's that kinda statement, I misunderstood your objection.
Well, I'm not gonna rehash the reasons the MMR system works the way that it does since that's not really on topic, so I'll just let my statement stand and leave it at that.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866078#Comment_3866078
Why do you only gain MMR after you have killed the majority of the team?
You don't.
That's what I've been telling you. That's what that line says. As soon as you get a kill, your MMR goes up. It just goes back down if you then lose the other survivors.
You asking 'why' is basically asking why your MMR goes down if you lose more than you win. You're just compressing the stats.
According to the MMR system, kill rate = win rate.
And you know what? This could actually be a way bigger issue than it seems at first glance.
Not that I necessarily agree with the person you're arguing with, but I feel like this is an argument that kinda misses something important.
If we're defining our win condition based solely on the MMR system (which I would argue is completely backwards, for the record), then we'd still be looking at MMR gain at the end of the match, because that's the point at which you'd logically suggest someone has won or lost. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise.
Ergo, based on the MMR system, the killer only "wins" if they get three kills, because otherwise their MMR overall goes down at the point those ups and downs are actually "locked in" by the match ending, so to speak. Batulasen is correct that you only gain MMR if you kill a majority of the team, they could've just been slightly more accurate by not saying "after" and instead saying "if".
(Kinda, there's more nuance than that, the MMR system only uses the win conditions and then modifies them to accommodate its actual purpose, but you get the point.)
Again, the MMR system doesn't actually dictate a win or loss, it reacts to a win or loss, but I did feel that was worth pointing out.
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@UknownShredder said:
Family photo in ghostface basekit and id feel pretty content.
Family Photo? Which addon is that?
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
Wow JK, you did it lol. Well then, lemme pour over this and try to give some feedback!
The Basekit ChangesTraps spawn pre-set at pallets and windows near generators
As a Trapper Main®, Naturally I would love this. Do I think it would go over well? Probably not. Trapper's early game is where most of his issues are, but I feel that's by design. If we are keeping with BHVR's designs in mind (even if only a lil bit), I'd say random spawns but traps are armed, or they spawn at pallets/windows, but not armed. It would be a 'need to ptb a bit' kind of things. But i like it!
Trap setting speed increased by 30%
Speaks for itself. Im fine with this, but I'd drop the haste buff after setting a trap. The two combines -might- be too much. Might.
Trap disarm speed reduced by 33%
Love this! Makes a certain other addon feel less required. Always in favor of these types of changes.
Traps are no longer revealed by the "Red Twine" Map addon
Interesting. While this is cool, I feel its unnecessary. Map items are very infrequent, and its not a total counter to Trapper. The map will run out of charges aeventually, and making him too oppressive isn't the aim. Still, interesting idea, but not totally necessary.
Traps are recoloured to fit the map you load in on
This has to be one of the most requested things in general. Its just ridiculous this hasn't been added already. Color scheme changes aren't difficult, regardless of how bad DBD's spaghetti code is.
Grabbing survivors caught in traps causes that trap to re-arm after a few seconds
Interesting again, a bit of control over how to handle the prey. I think this would be fine. Might be a good add'on though.
A survivor being unhooked now disarms all traps within X metres of the hook
This. This so much. Trapper and Hag's who trap up a hook are clearly new or bad, but this would be a better teacher of this than what is currently in the game: nothing.
Will get to the add-on stuff later, currently at work lol. Nice write up though. Now… do one for…
The Entity!
Appreciate the feedback!
To clarify on the first point, though- they'd just be placed in the correct positions, they wouldn't spawn in armed. The idea being, you'd have the ability to make the snap decision of "yeah that's good enough" and just spend the few seconds arming it and moving on instead of picking it up and moving it around, to cut down on setup time.
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Definitely not, no.
It's a lot easier to tunnel because it's currently unbalanced and gives a lot more value than it should for how easy it is to perform + how hard it is to counter, but it's nowhere close to necessary for a good win rate.
For clarification, a good win rate to me is anywhere that hovers around 50%, since that's about balanced. If you're winning at least half of your games, you're doing fine, and you don't need to crutch on cheese strats like tunnelling to get there in the current state of the game.
The weaker your killer, the more you need to be able to perform killer fundamentals well to do well, but even on Trapper you don't need to specifically tunnel depending on your build and playstyle.
This concept should scale with your MMR, because as your MMR goes up, you should be getting better at the fundamentals. If not, you'll plateau at your current skill level, hypothetically.
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It'll be in whatever big patch releases this month, I imagine we'll be hearing more about it fairly soon.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865245#Comment_3865245
I find it interesting (and, admittedly, mildly annoying) that people presume there's no win condition for this game, because to me it seems obvious that there is. They're online matches that end when one side meets their goal, and everything in the game is geared towards those sides meeting their goals. I don't see how you could interpret that any way but those goals being the win condition.The game has goals, that's a little different than a win condition. A win condition is an singular overall outcome, win, lose, or draw. Multiple factors might determine that, but its either true, not true, or a draw.
If the gates are open and a survivor is on hook and you are at the gate, if escaping was the sole win condition, than going back to save the survivor would be a bad play. However, both things in the game are goals that a survivor in that situation weighs risking one against the other.
I don't see how it's a reasonable interpretation for the game to have specific single goals for each side, and positive or negative feedback based on whether each player reached that goal, but then conclude that goal isn't the win condition. It just seems a little arbitrary to me.
If you escape, you reached your goal, you get the positive message, you get more points, things like Adept challenges use that as their goal so it counts for that, the MMR system designed to track wins and losses counts it as a win, and generally speaking you successfully leveraged or avoided every system and mechanic in the game that is designed to aid or hamper your ability to reach that goal.
How's that not winning? The entire framework the game has for providing any kind of feedback is designed to support this outcome, as is every mechanic designed to favour your side. By contrast, there's absolutely zero framework in the game at all to support the notion of a team win condition or a team win/loss outcome.
I think people tend to conflate the game's strict mechanical win condition with player incentives and goals, but the two don't necessarily have to be the same thing and can even conflict sometimes. Take your example of someone hooked when the gates are open- what are you risking when you go to save them? You're risking losing, because you might get sacrificed too. If you just want to secure your own win for whatever reason, it would be a bad play to go back and save that other survivor… but a lot of players find it more fun to risk that win to gain a better score or meet a more satisfying condition than just seeing the victory screen.
Things do get a bit messier with killer- survivors have a hard binary, win or lose, escape or die, but killers do have some grey area. Logically it's obvious that the killer's win condition is related to killing, for the same reasons that apply to survivors, but exactly how many kills you need in order to win is murkier and not something the game has as much feedback for. The general community consensus there is one I agree with, but there is more need for a community consensus there compared to survivors.
Still, though, we can see another instance where a player's incentive and individual goals may not line up when looking at the killer role, too. I know I've had a lot of matches where I feel satisfied with just one kill even though it's pretty obviously a loss, because it was a hard fought match with plenty of close plays and interaction. I lost, by most reasonable interpretations of the game's structures and feedback, but I don't mind that I lost. That doesn't mean the game's win condition is unclear because I was satisfied, though.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865227#Comment_3865227
There is no "team" win condition for survivor. There's also no "team" win condition for killer, it just seems that way because the killer "team" is one player.There's no win condition at all. There are outcomes that increase or decrease your MMR, but if we're narrowing it down to that, kill rate = win rate.
Most games (whether video or traditional sports) have a win / loss / draw mechanic. Whether you win a game of basketball by 1 or 30, you still won. And most leagues treat that win as the most important thing, with degree of victory being just a tie breaker.
DbD is different, the totality of the outcome is important. A 3k/3k/3k/2k/0k and a 4k/4k/1k/1k/1k are basically the same. Both outcomes have a 55% kill rate (we're presuming no hatch here for simplicity). Now a play might prefer outcome 1 because they feel like they won 3 and only lost once, while the second they won twice and lost three times, but that's just a feeling.
Which is the same on the survivor side, feelings of winning or losing. Personally, I'll take a 3e where I die over a 1e where its just me, though the ultimate goal is to both escape and help others to escape.
Basically: if we want to make it just MMR, then its the same for both sides and kill rate equal win rate / loss rate. If we want something broader than that, then we need to talk about perceptions on both sides.
I'm not basing my position on win condition on the MMR system, that's backwards. The MMR system was implemented in line with the game's already existing win conditions.
I find it interesting (and, admittedly, mildly annoying) that people presume there's no win condition for this game, because to me it seems obvious that there is. They're online matches that end when one side meets their goal, and everything in the game is geared towards those sides meeting their goals. I don't see how you could interpret that any way but those goals being the win condition.
I'd be tempted to say it's because the game doesn't say "You Win" or "You Lose" when those goals are met/not met, but that seems pretty arbitrary, I don't want to assume that's the opposing position, it feels bad faith somehow.
This game does have the potential for degrees of victory in line with its win conditions, too - your bloodpoints, emblem scores, and exact kills on killer can make the difference between a narrow victory and a crushing one, if you're inclined to interpret it that way. The game does have win conditions, though, it's impossible for it to not.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865219#Comment_3865219
Look, I've been as explicit as I can on this topic, and I'm starting to think you're deliberately conflating these two to confuse things intentionally.
If you define a 0k and 1k as survivor team wins, a 2k draw, and 3k and 4k as killer win, then there's no confusion. That's the definition. That definition results in about a 50% killer win rate and a 37% survivor kill rate with about 13% draws.
You're saying that "escape is an individual survivor win", so even using that definition, a 60% kill rate is a 60% win rate for the killer. That's it. The only way you're getting confused is trying to somehow imply that a survivor escaping means that the killer isn't winning, but you're explicitly defining a 1v1 here, so that's not possible.
I can't be more specific than this, so at this point if you're still confused I'm going to bow out. The only reason I can think of that this isn't clear is because you're trying to spin this as some kind of "2+2 = 5 so killers need additional buffs" or something. None of these interpretations say anything except that the devs have been successful in making the game killer sided, as they've explicitly stated has been their goal for a while now.
Alright, I'll take another crack at explaining myself and if we can't see eye to eye, I'm amenable to bowing out- though to be clear, I just said that killers are doing fine.
This game is asymmetrical, and its win conditions reflect that. One survivor escaping is that one survivor winning, but if the other three survivors die, the killer won too.
There is no "team" win condition for survivor. There's also no "team" win condition for killer, it just seems that way because the killer "team" is one player.
It's definitely fair to want a team win condition for survivor because it'd make a few things quite a bit easier to talk about and potentially even to balance, but there's no framework to support that in the game that we currently have. The game only has feedback for individual win conditions, because that's how it was initially built, that's how its basic systems have operated since day one.
I do think it's relevant to this conversation because it should affect how we interpret things like the kill rate and the overall survivor escape rate, but like I said, I'm nowhere near good enough with numbers to figure out what that says about the game's overall balance numerically.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865214#Comment_3865214
The only problem i have with defining it the way you did is that it's completely irrelevant to the discussion.
OP is saying that a 60% kill rate isn't necessarily a 60% win rate. He's right, but it's not like that changes the discussion in the sense that killers are suddenly struggling, since killers are still winning more than losing (or even drawing and losing combined).
You saying that "an escape is an individual survivor win" is exactly the opposite: every kill is a killer win, and by your definition a 60% kill rate is exactly a 60% win rate.
That assumes, again, that the win conditions are mutually exclusive in that way, but they're not.
A killer has to reach one goal: At least three kills (arguably, for the sake of this conversation it's actually relevant that the game's one piece of ambiguity that does exist is whether 3 kills counts or it has to be 4)
A survivor has to reach one goal: Escaping
Those goals are in conflict but they aren't so strictly mutually exclusive that it's impossible for a player on both "sides" to win. The game just isn't laid out like that, it's not a symmetrical game in its win conditions or its literal player makeup.
To be clear though, because the wider context of the conversation does matter - I'm not saying killers are struggling. They're not, the game's doing pretty good for killers at the moment. I just take issue with the way the game's win conditions are framed so consistently.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865207#Comment_3865207
This belies a more individualist and selfish interpretation of the survivor role. Yes, being killed is considered a loss for the purposes of MMR, but it does not have to be how the player defines a loss.
When playing survivor I consider a 3-out a win even if I'm the one that died. I hardly think I'm alone in this.
To be sure, I'm not trying to say every player must follow the game's win condition and mustn't ever replace it with their own, you can approach the game however you like.
I do it as well, I don't tend to hang my own fun or personal "win condition" on whether I strictly won the match. I'm just pointing out that the game does actually have a win condition.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865207#Comment_3865207
You're conflating two different things. OP and I are talking specifically about "team" wins, even though DBD has one team with only a single player.
You might be able to look at an individual escape as "that player wins" maybe, but the entire conversation breaks down doing that. You even say yourself that a 3k is a killer win… so if we go that route we end up saying the nonsensical "well, the killer won the game, but so did the one survivor who escaped, even though they're on opposing teams". (This problem, btw, is exactly why the devs haven't defined a "win" condition and generally only look at kills).
See above - that's absolutely possible. The game's win conditions may not be literally laid out in text, but everything in the game is geared to support one outcome for each side, that's pretty obviously the win condition.
The conversation breaking down at that point is kinda the argument I'm making. This isn't a way of looking at the game or its balance accurately because it relies on an assumption that I would argue isn't really supported by the game's mechanics.
Not that the conversation can't be had at all, but it's a lot trickier than it seems because the two teams don't have mutually exclusive win conditions, that's not how the game's laid out. You could absolutely argue that's a flaw with the game (I wouldn't myself, though) but it is how the game currently is.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
You're correct that they aren't the same thing, and that BHVR hasn't defined a "win" condition. However, usually people are trying to somehow use this information to say that the game isn't leaning in the killer's favor currently.
Nightlight isn't a full picture, but since the devs don't give us the breakdown of how many kills per game, it's all we have currently. As of right now the breakdown is:
- 0k: 20.2%
- 1k: 16.6%
- 2k: 12.9%
- 3k: 17.2%
- 4k: 33%
So, if we use the common definition that 0k and 1k are survivor "wins", a 2k is a draw, and 3k and 4k are kill "wins", then you still have killers winning about 50% of the time, about 13% of the games are a draw, and about 37% of the games are survivor wins.
Whether it's the 60% kill rate, or the more nebulous win rate, the game is currently favoring killers in both metrics.
A survivor win is that individual survivor escaping, though.
3k and 4k are wins for the killer, and I'd personally call a 2k a draw even if there's not as much to suggest that in the game, but I don't think it's necessarily a fair interpretation to say that because of that only a 0k or 1k count as survivor wins because that's not really how this game works.
I'm not good enough with numbers to draw any other conclusions, I'll be the first to admit that, but I do think it misses a lot to define "survivor win" only as the killer losing, when the game is set up asymmetrically.
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My issue with the criticism that BHVR nerf meta perks into the ground to the point of worthlessness is that everyone's examples are always perks that are, at worst, just "fine".
Your list does have Self-Care, at least, that perk is pretty bad. The rest of your examples kind of undo your argument, though- Dead Hard and Decisive Strike are still popular, let alone strong, and stuff like Made For This + Circle Of Healing are still good perks in their niches. Hell, CoH is one of the strongest survivor perks in the game, albeit only if there's communication.
Generally speaking, BHVR are actually pretty good at nerfing things in ways that maintain their usefulness. There are some exceptions, of course, but by and large the trend is that nerfed perks are still pretty worthwhile. Another good example here would be Distortion, a perk that's still very worth bringing after a noticeable nerf.
I don't disagree about cosmetics, though, some characters are definitely still under-served there. Not so sure Sable's one of the big dogs getting all the love just yet, but Jake's definitely languishing a little. I'd like to see that changed.
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I don't think so, personally.
Patch 6.1.0 didn't happen arbitrarily- it happened because the meta had been the exact same four to six perks over and over, in everyone's matches, for years. Specifically, it happened because people complained about that fact.
That being said, we did get a much smaller perk overhaul after 6.1.0 (I forget which patch it was specifically) that changed a bunch of perks without that context, without associated basekit changes, and without specifically targeting all of the meta perks. Something like that might be plausible!
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864840#Comment_3864840
How exactly is "If the killer hooks the same survivor twice in a row, then stun the killer for 60 seconds" weaponizable by survivors?
I feel like you're building to some kind of point, but if there are no restrictions beyond that point, then survivors could do generators in the killer's face and the killer could do nothing about it.
That's why old DS was weaponisable but the current one isn't - there were no restrictions on its use beyond the timer, so the player effectively had sixty seconds of invincibility.
This hypothetical perk which only requires the survivor be hooked twice in a row would have the same issue with a very very unpleasant downside that could easily be hit accidentally. It's why anti-tunnel these days gets buried under a bunch of conditions and actions that disable it, so that it's basically impossible to hit it accidentally - even setting aside the "shield of invincibility" issue, if you're having a bad match and you only manage to down the one survivor you've already hooked, who is also your only hook, being stunned for trying to hook them would be pretty damn unfair.
I'm sure you want me to say that it'd be weaponisable because the survivors could play very aggressive and bodyblock, but that alone doesn't actually make something weaponisable. It'd still require the killer to take the bait, which they don't ever have to do.
Sixty seconds of stun is also just like, an extremely sloppy and ugly way of doing things, which is I'm sure why you picked it, no shade there. Hypothetically I'd object to that even with Conspicuous Actions put on it because it's just kinda lazy design and too unpleasant to experience.
Just to loop back around to the actual topic at hand, too, this obviously doesn't apply to Shoulder The Burden because there's no actual bad scenario you're being hit with. The four second stun of DS or the sixty seconds of stun from this hypothetical perk are actively bad situations for the killer to be in, and the survivors arbitrarily shuffling around hook states with StB isn't.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864836#Comment_3864836
Some SWFs are weaponizing shoulder the burden. They'll have 1 survivor with chase perks and anti-tunnel perks, and that person will repeatedly be baiting the killer, or standing nearby with a flashlight/flashbang/toolbox if the killer tries to chase someone else, or aggressively bodyblocking if the killer tries to chase someone else.
These SWFs absolutely want the killer to tunnel the 1 survivor with all chase/anti-tunnel perks, and are actively trying to make that happen.
Isn't that just the same as very aggressive players without Shoulder The Burden, and wouldn't you counter it the same way as normal?
IE, you just ignore them and force them to waste time running around behind you and trying to get your attention.
I don't deny that they're kinda annoying to face and I don't deny that they'd probably bring StB as one of their perk choices here, but I don't see StB actually changing anything about this situation or its counterplay.
It also still doesn't mean the perk itself is overpowered or capable of harming killers that don't tunnel.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864833#Comment_3864833
Honestly, if there was a survivor perk that said "If the killer hooks the same survivor twice in a row, then stun the killer for 60 seconds", you would think that's fine, because the killer could have "just not tunneled" to avoid it.
I wouldn't, because there's a genuine detriment there if survivors are capable of weaponising it, which they probably could the way you're describing it.
In this scenario, there's no detriment. You just get a normal game. It's not just that you don't need to tunnel, it's also that the situation you're describing isn't actually negative for the killer.