jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882713#Comment_3882713
"Just dont tunnel" doesn't work when survivors can actively OFFENSIVELY use OTR and Basekit BT and DS to body block for their teammates and still get a free escape.
Basekit BT is the one thing you do actually have to deal with, I'd agree with that. Stuff like the anti face camp, the extra ten seconds on hooks, various other anti-tunnel/anti-camp perks like DS and Shoulder The Burden and such, those are the things you don't have to deal with unless you're actively tunnelling/camping.
It's at best a minor annoyance, though, it's hardly "hooks aren't worth it anymore" levels of overbearing.
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@Reinami said:
Basekit unbreakable is just going to punish killers harder for things out of their control and faster bleedout just encourages the slugging more.
They need to fundamentally go back to the drawing board and look into WHY killers are slugging and WHY survivors hate it and address it more intelligently. They can't just bandaid fix this because all that will happen is killers will go to the next "annoying thing"
They need to realize that spending years giving survivors buffs when they get unhooked through perks, and basekit mechanics. While also nerfing killer perks around hooking while also increasing the hook timer, while also making survivors on the hook actually safer than ones not on the hook is obviously going to lead to "not hooking"
They need to actively ENCOURAGE killers to hook by rewarding them, not by punishing them. They need to make tunneling fundamentally IMPOSSIBLE from a gameplay perspective, not bandaid it with more basekit mechanics. They need to do something about the "game is definitely lost now" for BOTH SIDES that just makes everyone immediately give up, and deal with the "slugging the whole team for 4 minutes" and "slugging for the 4k"
It's not really what this thread is about but I do have to point out, there's been extremely little added to the game that buffs survivors surrounding hooks where the killer actually does have to deal with it. The vast majority of it specifically surrounds camping or tunnelling, not just hooking in general.
It's tricky to make hooking more rewarding without it being broken, considering how rewarding hooking already is.
Though, again, to reiterate: This thread is about why a faster bleedout timer is a bad idea.
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@LockerLurk said:
It's been proven already that basekit unbreakable is abusable. Period.
If they do this they'll need to buff certain Killers more. Many Killers have been buffed enough, some languish. There are cases where you HAVE to leave someone downed, it's unfortunately just part of the game.
Faster bleedout is way more preferable, plus encouraging Survivors to go pick their friends up. That means encouraging teamwork. Some of this is on Survivors too.It's been proven that a basekit Unbreakable is a bad idea if it's done in the specific way that the one PTB it was tested on did it, not that it's a bad idea period.
Though, for the record, not what this thread is about. The thread is about how faster bleedout would encourage more frequent and more aggressive slugging.
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@CLHL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882484#Comment_3882484
No, because it's only an option, you are sent to a hook only if you don't want to stay on the floor. A bleeding-out option would be a go next, but with this solution you only lost a hook stage. With basekit unbreakable the killer would totally lose the pressure, but in this solution he is rewarded with a hook.
That's kinda my point, though. The result of the killer aggressively slugging - the thing we're ostensibly trying to fix - is that they get rewarded for it.
If you know that your opponent will just give you a reward for you employing a specific tactic, aren't you going to feel more inclined to go for that specific tactic?
If we want to lessen slugging, whatever system we implement would have to be something the killer wants to avoid or we're making the problem worse.
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@H2H said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882503#Comment_3882503
No I’m just gonna go with the same “give one side one of their strongest second chance perks basekit” solution.
This thread isn't actually about how basekit Unbreakable is the only solution, to be clear. I do think it's the safest and least likely to backfire if it's done properly, but it's really not the only thing to look at.
This thread is about how a faster bleedout timer specifically both won't solve the problem and stands a good chance of making it worse. Fittingly, basekit NOED is the same thing: It doesn't stop toolbox squads at all, and it'd have too much collateral damage.
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@H2H said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882499#Comment_3882499
Genrushing SWFs which I encounter just as often as survivors encounter slugging killers.
Wouldn't just nerfing toolboxes be a much easier and less dramatic way of taking care of those builds?
You could go another step and adjust survivor spawns so they all spawn together by default, if you wanted. That's a more direct response to the problem there that won't have any nasty collateral damage.
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@crogers271 said:
Well I think limiting it to those two options is overly limiting.
First for me would be changing some killer perks, notably knockout. Slugging could still be a part of the game, but not an entire build you could make.
Then I would make faster bleedout, with conditions. Mainly there being multiple dead or also downed survivors, This is to speed up slugging for the 4k.
Then I'd probably increase the basekit crawl speed, maybe even make it so you could crawl and recover to a limited degree. That's a less necessary thing to look at.
If after all of that we still had issues, we could talk about more radical changes.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882401#Comment_3882401
Balance is an important discussion.
A more important discussion is having an enjoyable game. I don't mind losing, its part of games, but I don't want to feel like I'm watching paint dry as a video game.
Not that I think its a tradeoff, but hypothetically if it was, I would gladly accept a higher kill rate if it would significantly reduce how boring DbD is at points.
For the record, while I personally do support (a very carefully implemented) basekit Unbreakable, this thread is more to point out that a faster bleedout timer in specific would have the opposite effect of what people would presumably want. It's not really a counter because the killer still wins, and it'd encourage more slugging instead of deterring it.
There are of course other avenues to explore, overall.
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@H2H said:
Survivors can have basekit Unbreakable if killers get basekit NOED. I mean, it’s only fair.
What clear basekit issue would basekit NOED be solving, though?
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882487#Comment_3882487
A single lithe or sprint burst negates the exposed from STB. The anti face camp works a bit too well for what its meant to do because face camping isn't sitting 20 meters from hook. The ten extra seconds per hook stage allows for even more greed while giving the survivors more time to unhook even when you try to punish them for waiting so long to unhook. Oh yeah hook grabs got removed so trading against most killers is just free.
The bar for the AFC builds so slowly if you're on the edge of the 16 metres, though, this is really a non issue. You're not gonna be on the edge of it for all that long anyway unless you're trying to camp someone to second stage/death, so even that's a non issue if it weren't incredibly slow.
As for greeding gens, consider the following: What are you doing while they're greeding gens? The answer should be "chasing someone", right? So what the survivors are giving you here is the opportunity to start snowballing a win if you can get that down before they can finish the generator and run over to get the save. Unless the next down happens after the save, you're the one with the advantage to press, not the survivors.
These things are a non-issue unless you're actively doing the specific things they're meant to punish. They don't make hooks weaker for their main purposes.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882480#Comment_3882480
STB, +20 seconds on hook per survivor and anti face camp. Stack those upon the 2nd chances, STB or reassurance then hooking just benefits the survivors more if you want to win.
I'm not sure I see how?
Shoulder the Burden only really has one very specific scenario in which it's even useful outside of the killer trying to tunnel, and because of the Exposed effect it can even backfire pretty badly.
The extra ten seconds per hook stages realistically aren't going to matter unless you're trying to force someone to progress hook stages without being unhooked, which was already kind of a losing proposition most of the time anyway. If survivors leave their teammates on the hook for longer, that's more time for you to generate pressure, which is to your benefit and not theirs.
The anti face camp system barely works for what it's supposed to do, you definitely don't have to worry about this mechanic unless you're literally trying to face camp.
None of these things actually benefit the survivors unless you play into them. Don't stick by the hook and don't concentrate all your attention on the guy who just got unhooked, that's already how you'd play killer more effectively. The fact that it thwarts these supposed second chance perks is a bonus.
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@CLHL said:
There is a third and better option: After a reasonable time in the floor you are given the option to be automatically sent to a hook by pressing a button.
This would put an end to the toxic bleeding out all the survivors, which is the only slugging case that really deserves to be taken care of.
Wouldn't that basically bring the same result as a faster bleedout, though?
If you're the killer and you want to aggressively slug, this solution would tell you that the only answer survivors have is to reward you with a hook. I don't see that making aggressive slugging any less common, personally.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882474#Comment_3882474
It doesnt have to be recent. Its over the course of multiple years. They just all added up to this point where people realize its better. Which personally I foresaw this ever since they buffed the haste on the basekit BT which the endurance is fine the haste is just overkill.
That really just shifts my question of what got worse to a little further back. Outside of niche mechanics that reign in specific unbalanced playstyles, like the AFC mechanic and the basekit BT… nothing's changed. Hooks are as they've always been.
I just don't see what you have to deal with that's added up over the years, that's my main hangup here. It's basically been the same general shape of stuff you might have to deal with - you might have to deal with a flashlight or pallet save, you might have to deal with anti tunnel used aggressively - and all that's changed is which tools are being used for it.
I can't even really say the modern tools are stronger considering you can't weaponise DS anymore, so post-unhook aggression is inherently weaker. Maybe Flashbang is stronger than flashlights? But even then, hardly something that'd actually weaken hooks overall.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882471#Comment_3882471
Base kit additions and nerfing the hook perks. Mainly Pop and pain res. 30% was worth it on lower tiers but 20% isnt. Pain res all though instant regression removing the extra 20%… Its a multitude of things. Mainly me and a lot of people seeing upwards of 12 unhook perks that you can just ignore by slugging.
What basekit additions, though? The only basekit additions we've gotten even semi recently are, what, the extra time on the hook? That's not something you're even gonna notice nine times out of ten, and the tenth time has a good chance of being in your favour as killer.
I can understand hook perks being nerfed as a thing that makes hooks weaker in sort of a holistic sense, but realistically, what you get out of hooks hasn't actually changed if you aren't specifically running Pop. Pain Res hasn't been changed in a while and non-hook related regression perks haven't changed, so… it's just Pop, and if you aren't looking at perks at all, hooks are just as strong as they've ever been.
For unhook perks, I mean, which ones do you actually have to worry about as killer if you aren't tunnelling? Dead Hard, Reassurance, We'll Make It… that's kinda it, right?
I just don't see hooks being weaker now than they've been in the past, personally. Nothing's actually changed about the value of hooks.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882463#Comment_3882463
It's not some easy mode button. You slug and you ignore the current meta from survivor being unhook perks. Thats what I thought being good is, to adapt which slugging ignores unhook perks. Even in solo if they are prepared for it other than the obvious being knockout it can still come down to the wire.
And despite all this hooking keeps getting worse and worse meaning more incentive to slug.I know this isn't really the point of the thread but I do have to ask - what do you mean by hooking getting worse and worse? What's even changed about the basic value from hooking recently?
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882395#Comment_3882395
They tried Basekit Unbreakable before and it was busted
That PTB had a lot of issues, it wasn't just that a basekit Unbreakable was inherently busted. The far bigger problem on that PTB was that they also buffed the hell out of Unbreakable itself, and iirc a few other recovery speed tools.
It's absolutely possible to iterate on that concept and fix what was busted about it, the situation was far from unsalvageable.
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I think that'd be far too harsh of a nerf for aura perks, considering a good chunk of value comes from the surprise potential, as someone else said. Aura reading really isn't particularly overbearing at the moment anyway.
That said, a perk that does this would be worthwhile. I've suggested making Spine Chill a perk that lights up when your aura's being read before, and I think that'd be very appropriate since it's a universal perk + isn't very good at the moment.
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It's finicky and clunky, but I'll second what the first respondent here said - if you use her finger as the aiming point instead of the little light that shows up, I've found you have better luck.
Still annoying, though.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881299#Comment_3881299
"Which is good, because they obviously shouldn't completely ditch the core narrative concept of a killer just because that killer was the subject of an irrational hate brigade."
So old Legion and PTB Twins should have stayed the same
Nope, old Legion and PTB Twins should've been reworked to retain the same basic power idea without the problems that they originally had.
In Legion's case, at least, that's exactly what they did. I'm hazier on PTB Twins, but I'm very confident they didn't ditch the idea of, y'know, Victor, in general.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881296#Comment_3881296
Singularity is one of the hardest killers to play as. It takes skill. SM doesn't
I don't have faith in a new drone power unless they code the power from the ground. It will not work
I much rather remove the drones completely and give her a chase power, such as a flamethrower or something like that. It could even be 1 hit down.
So, then, she can keep the drones and it's possible for her to be well designed.
Which is good, because they obviously shouldn't completely ditch the core narrative concept of a killer just because that killer was the subject of an irrational hate brigade.
As an aside, she has a chase power now. That clearly isn't enough for most people.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881291#Comment_3881291
No, that's people's way of protesting against a badly designed character. DBD is not a free to play game. The devs don't have a free pass to release anything they want and expect players to enjoy it
That implies pretty heavily that there is absolutely no way to design a character that just has drones, generally and without any other context, that wouldn't be badly designed and worth DCing over.
Surely you must admit there are some ways of involving the concept of a drone in a power that wouldn't be badly designed? If, say, Singularity's power were functionally exactly the same but visually his Biopods were hovering drones, would that automatically make him badly designed and worth DCing over?
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881286#Comment_3881286
Then people will never like her
You don't think that's a tiny bit irrational and unfair?
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880850#Comment_3880850
There's quite a bit of downsides or "punishment" for hooking. First, picking up a survivor makes you vulnerable to a flashlight/flashbang/pallet save, removing all pressure when occurring. Second, you telegraph to the rest of the team that the survivor has been picked up, meaning all gen repair and healing is safe. Third, you become vulnerable to sabotage/breakout/boil-over/power-struggle during the carry, which can be up to ~15 seconds. Again, if failed you lose all pressure. Fourth, the survivor is now locked in a safe position from you for up to 70 seconds, where they will then gain potentially the strongest perks in the game upon unhook should you choose or have no choice but to the chase that unhooked survivor.
Literally all of this can be avoided if you leave the survivor on the ground where you can then immediately start chasing another survivor, occupying half the team (or more).
Slugging needs to be nerfed, I can agree on that, but maybe hooking should be a bit more useful and less risky for killer, yes?
I don't think there being some back and forth gameplay revolving around pickups inherently means that hooking has downsides or is "punished", personally. None of that's new really, either- there's always been risks to picking up recklessly, and there's only a handful of things that have been added in that vein even remotely recently.
As for the fourth point, I mean… they're safe from you but they're not doing generators and someone else must also come off generators to undo it, unavoidably. Just don't chase someone off hook unless absolutely necessary and you're actively benefiting from this scenario, it's not even neutral. That's what you want to happen.
Hooking is already very useful and not that risky, so I don't think much needs to change there. A few things here and there could be looked at for being a little too good - flashbangs are pretty obnoxious, for example - but nothing so overwhelmingly powerful that trying to hook isn't worth it.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881088#Comment_3881088
Its been a gradual trend. Things like OverBrine were not healthy, but even simple things like removing the BP incentive to spread hooks on BBQ has been a contributing factor. For a direct example, while something like PGTW at its strongest might not have been the most healthy, it certainly didn't deserve to get knocked all the way down to its current state. As it stands, slugging is literally more effective gen defense than most gen defense perks, especially if built around it. It applies to survivors in a similar fashion, the medkit nerf similarly led to an uptick in gen rushing because they handled the nerf too hamfisted (as per usual.)
The general idea is that metas form around what is the most effective, and as a developer you generally want that to involve higher skill ceilings and more skill expression. When LCD strats are the meta it means you are stifling your own playerbase, essentially.
I can sort of see what you're saying, but isn't this rundown sort of missing the inclusion of playing to the fundamentals? That is to say, occupying multiple survivors at once by spreading pressure, therefore slowing down generator progress through play alone.
That's the thing that should be emphasised if we want skill expressive plays to be the most effective, and in my opinion the devs actually have been doing that, shown in things like buffing a few information perks, buffing killer basekits, and in the basekit changes from back in 6.1.0.
With spreading pressure properly included in our analysis, generator perks being too good is itself a form of LCD, as you'd call it, because regression/blocking perks being too good can replace the skill expression of occupying survivors instead of accentuating it. Most gen perks now - Pop included - are still perfectly good if put into that overall playstyle, but aren't if you're relying on them entirely.
The only perks in the game that allow you to sort of circumvent this are Pain Res for just being that good in general and Grim Embrace for artificially forcing pressure onto survivors. I don't think either are massively overpowered, to be clear, but they're the exceptions to this idea.
I do agree about losing the BP incentives on BBQ not helping matters, though, just wouldn't strictly call it a direct nerf myself. Maybe semantics on that front though.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880861#Comment_3880861
Thats not what people mean by second chance. They mean they won the chase yet were forced to lose it due to a perk or mechanic. Its a form of objective denial similar to gens getting blocked or regressed, which is why the amount of times it can happen is so important. 4 survivors given even only 1 "second chance" is 4 extra hits/bladewipes on many killers, and it plays an important role in the forced time waste caused by the process of hooking (all on top of the obvious chase extension.) Time pressure can often be very real when playing as killer (like it can as survivor, though the agency is more shared in their regard) so time spent prolonging chases that were already won is free pressure for survivors and pressure removal for the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881024#Comment_3881024
In the past I've referred to strategies like slugging and tunneling as Lowest Common Denominator strats: Very effective effort/value ratio, possible by essentially the whole cast (though some have inherent strengths in each, yet very few have real weaknesses in any) and most importantly they are the strategies that people fall back to when more healthy ones get nerfed. It feels like nobody wants to address all three at once, while addressing the first two when they are present causes the last one to move to the next goalpost. There can be criticism about LCD strategies and it can often be valid, but its always important to remember that the carrot and the stick are both important.
When people say part of why we got here was from other more healthy things getting nerfed, they're not incorrect. There will always be people who respond better to the carrot or the stick, but neither is as universal as many tend to argue (X change didn't work because there were people that still did Y anyway.) Every time a more healthy mechanic/strategy/anything gets nerfed on either side, people will always move on to the next LCD strat in a degenerative progression. For survivors it means more gen rush and abusing whatever bug du jour is currently awaiting a long overdue fix, while for killers it means reverting to slugging/tunneling/camping/etc. We'd get a lot better results if people didn't feel the need to be in either camp, even if the improvement wouldn't fit 100% of the userbase.
What is it that you'd say was a healthy strategy that got nerfed, though?
Is it just that a couple slowdown perks in particular were nerfed? I wouldn't personally call running the strongest handful of perks a strategy, which is why I ask.
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When you say that the punishment for hooking a survivor increased while the rewards diminished, what exactly are you referring to?
I can't think of any punishments just for hooking a survivor that exist in the game right now, and the only rewards I've seen get diminished are strictly from specific perks- the base rewards for hooking are the same as they've ever been.
For the record, my answer for why slugging increased is simply that people have noticed people aren't as prepared to counter slugging, and a lot of the other cheap-value strategies have been rightly nerfed over the years. Aggressive slugging will get its due eventually, hopefully players learn how to just play the fundamentals better at that point. Wishful thinking, though, I'd wager- other games don't fare better than DBD in this regard.
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I've got a couple:
- Most perks, on both sides, are perfectly usable. Some are a little undertuned while still being worth bringing in some contexts, but very very few are actually outright bad.
- The MMR system measures skill just fine, as long as you understand what skill is being measured. It's not a personal feedback system, it's not meant to be ultra precise within a specific match.
- Skull Merchant's lore isn't significantly worse than most other killers' and is really just par for the course overall. People only think otherwise because they already disliked her and engaged with the lore in bad faith.
- Tournament matches are useless data for discussions about the game's balance.
- Genrushing is extremely rare, but also by far the most broken thing in the game right now.
- Circle of Healing, Adrenaline, Distortion, and Iron Will are still among the strongest perks in the game for survivor and are extremely worth bringing, their nerfs only stopped them being unfair.
- (Iron Will is still kinda unfair.)
- The worst chase theme in the game is Hag's. You know what people say about Skull Merchant's chase theme? That's actually true of Hag's, and it has this awful hard cutoff instead of fading away.
- Macro pressure performed well is better than slowdown perks used without good macro pressure.
- Tools of Torment and All-Kill are the strongest original chapters BHVR has done thematically, and those two killers are among the best fitting for the game.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879924#Comment_3879924
The problem is a lack of care to be informed. Casuals don't care ti waste their time if they remember their last negative experience with her. BHVR should put notifications or badges on certain characters when they recieve changes, and they should also encourage killer kits to be read by survivors
They've kinda done that recently, actually- the patch notes get shown to everyone when they log in after a patch, in a news popup. Most people probably won't read it but the info is there now in a way it wasn't before.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880152#Comment_3880152
I'm not downplaying anything.
I'm providing a real, personal account as someone who played against OG Skull Merchant and first rework Skull Merchant, then dropped DBD to live their life, only to return to a Skull Merchant who feels no different than the killer I did not enjoy playing against 2 years ago.
If you have been here the whole time, then I would expect she feels quite different to you. Especially so, if you have been playing as her in the killer role.
But my comments were never on behalf of those who closely follow and regularly play the game.
From the Survivor P.O.V., Skull Merchant is not a chase killer. She sets traps and she walks away.I suppose I can't disprove your experience, but I am surprised that you didn't notice her power being fundamentally different in almost every way.
I understand not knowing how the new power works, but you really didn't notice that it doesn't do basically any of the things it used to (from the survivor perspective, anyway) and looks completely different?
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880141#Comment_3880141
Skull Merchant on Release (Survivor P.O.V.): Killer places stationary drones around the map which scan a small area. Survivor can temporarily deactivate the drone by approaching it and hacking it.
Skull Merchant today (Survivor P.O.V.): Killer places stationary drones around the map which scan a small area. Survivor can temporarily deactivate the drone by approaching it and hacking it.
Small visual changes and minor number adjustments are not going to reassure players who HATE Skull Merchant to the point of disconnecting that she is worth playing against. If it walks and talks like a duck, people are going to think its a duck!I think you're downplaying how big those changes obviously were, to be fair here.
I mean, the drones went from an AOE that immediately started building a visible meter, to big and highly visible beams that rotate, that's pretty gigantic. She went from a passive trap killer to an active chase killer, the experience changed pretty dramatically.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879716#Comment_3879716
It's always the killer's fault, isn't it?
Not always, but often.
Failing to occupy the survivors with consistent pressure seems like a pretty common flaw in a lot of players' games, going by my own anecdotal experience playing survivor and what I can glean from others. It's not at all inappropriate to at least check about that in discussions about someone's poor experiences playing killer.
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880086#Comment_3880086
It's a really complicated question to answer because it's not something that innately has a totally black and white answer like "Oh Huntress feels bad to play against because her hitboxes are questionable". It's a VERY grey area and the answer differs for many people.
Before I try my best to answer that I just wanna say that I want to talk about her power in a vacuum. Separated from the lore/design/controversial release/previous versions of her power etc. Retreading old "this sucked" points doesn't matter for the current version of SM as that was in the past. It's not the current version of her.
The current problems I see in her design are the following
~ Trap based killers have always been hated to be played against. I genuinely cannot remember the last time I encountered a player who said they enjoyed playing against killers like Trapper or Hag. It simply doesn't feel good to try to run to an area only to see the bear trap/phantasm/drone already set up there and going "this loop has the power set up here, this could be risky. I don't want to be here". Many players simply don't like this interaction and others always seem to tolerate it to a degree. But it's always a tolerance, never a distinct love. Ofc there are people out there who do love playing against this type of killer, but they're VERY few and far between.
~ The barrage of status effects. One of the biggest criticisms against SM is how she can bombard you with status effects. Hindered, Haste, Undetectable, Deep Wound, Broken, all status effects that she has in her BASEKIT and that's not factoring in her add-ons which can add worse skill checks, blindness, silent skill checks, oblivious, exhausted, hemorrhage, mangled, and aura reading. That's a literal laundry list of status effects and its a dump of information that can very easily overload someone in a chase.~ Unintuitive counterplay. Being able to crouch the scan lines isn't exactly super intuitive. With other killers their main power makes more sense to play around. You dodge Wesker's dash or the tentacle for Nemesis, you don't stand in the massive glowing rectangle against pyramid head and don't step in his goo, you go to the funny highlighted box to remove a RBT for pig etc. Something that any new player could easily intuit during their first match against the killer. "Don't let the big scary matrix man get me" "He has a tentacle, I don't want to be touched by it, it's slimy and yucky" "The big glowing rectangle under my feet is probably not a good sign" "I didn't see the boxes until I got a party hat, I'm going to go over to them, oh hey I remove my trap here". SM simply doesn't have that. Not saying she isn't the ONLY killer with this issue, but it's still an issue regardless. Nobody sees the massive glowing cone and thinks "Yup, I can duck under that." The cone doesn't even communicate that it does work like that because you'd have to be standing under the drone to not get hit by the scan line itself. If it was just a horizontal laser? Maybe it would help some of this issue.
~ She's genuinely been changed so much that people don't even know what she does anymore. This isn't a game issue perse, it's 100% a player issue. But most casual players don't boot up the game and stay totally up to date on all the patch notes and what they mean. Sadako has this same issue. People literally just don't know because there was a period of time it felt like she was being changed every other patch.
There's probably more I'm missing but those are the main ones from the top of my head. It should also be worth noting
Just because a killer is weak does not mean that they are not fun to play against.
Release Legion was honestly really bad. Like to the point where many people on the Steam forums (this was before the official BHVR forums if memory serves) said the ONLY thing he could do was moonwalk people. Being a 110 M1 killer was certainly a design choice. Did that make Legion somehow fun to play against? No. Absolutely not. Because being moonwalked to death wasn't fun. You can't use the argument of her being bad as a means to makeup for some of problems (both perceived and actual) as weak or not they still impact the game she is in and that effects the other players.
Also just wanna say the go next epidemic is out of hand and I hope BHVR nukes it soon. SM or not, it's ridiculous.I appreciate the detailed answer. I considered giving my answer to the points, but I think you're right that it's subjective and we're not likely to change each other's minds.
I'll part ways by saying I do agree about her power not being intuitive enough, that's been my one major complaint since the rework, so we can find common ground there at least.
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
Because even if she's the worst killer in the game she feels awful to play against.
I promise this is a sincere question asked in good faith - why?
Her power barely does anything anymore, what makes it feel bad to play against?
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879978#Comment_3879978
If lobby dodging would be a risk, you could make it appear where you pause the game like you've mentioned. It would be nice to see that a survivor has - let's say Deliverance to know not to go for the save and would let solo-queue be more in line with SWF.
Loading screen would allow people to DC during the loading screen. Before the lobby starts would have people leaving if they see a yellow perk as @WolfePhD mentioned. I do not believe that allowing survivors to see each other's perks would be a horrible addition, in fact it would be great. It could show the perks right where it shows our perks when we pause - I know that they added that for Chaos Shuffle but it would do wonders and even allow survivors to read the perks if they were curious too.
I don't believe you can DC during the loading screen without fully shutting down the game, can you?
The major point of concern would be people DCing while the camera's panning around, but I do genuinely think fewer people would do that than would just leave a lobby before the game starts.
Unavoidably, something like this would have to come alongside some kind of stricter prevention for people quitting out of games at the drop of a hat, though.
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The Haste and repair speed is definitely overpowered, even one of those would probably be too much without being toned down significantly, but I do kinda like the idea. Nix both effects or put it strictly on a timer and keep one, I'd say.
The issue you'd run into is the same as something like Shattered Hope - there's no actual guarantee you'd ever get to use this perk. Granted, Pain Res is very common so you're more likely to use this than Shattered Hope specifically, but the same principle applies.
Not against perks like that existing in theory, but it definitely wouldn't be popular, I don't think.
As an aside, how are you making these images? They look very good.
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It shouldn't be in the lobby, you're right. I do think this information can be shared while minimising the risk of players acting out because they don't like what they see, though.
My suggestion would be to have perks visible in two places; the loading screen, and the in-game "pause"/escape menu.
Players could still leave matches based on that info but there'd be a higher barrier to entry, which would lower the amount of people doing it. If this change is rolled out alongside the badly needed removal of hook suicides, players would also have to DC to leave matches with """bad""" perks in play, and eat the DC penalty for doing it.
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The thing about Skull Merchant hate is that it's always been at least partially irrational and arbitrary, even when the actually problematic version of her power existed. I don't say that to shame or lambast anyone, it's just a neutral observation.
That's why the most recent round of changes was a mistake, or at least one reason. It doesn't help that the changes weren't aimed at any of the killer's actual problems and just sorta nuked her basic gameplan to the ground, but even if the changes had all been sensible… people don't DC against Skull Merchant because of what the state of her power is. Most people barely even understand what that power even does.
It's still a good idea to change SM, I've supported that for a while, but you necessarily have to de-link the changes from the fact that people DC against her. You can't expect that even a full rework that solves all her issues would stop people from DCing against her because… well, they did that once, and from a design standpoint it was a pretty serious success. Yet, still people DCed, because it doesn't actually matter what Skull Merchant does.
I don't envy BHVR because I truly don't know how you'd fix that problem. If I were in their shoes, all I'd do is fix the killer's problems and leave it to hope things die down eventually.
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@SoGo said:
I don't think Invocations should stack, especially if there are more to be released.
I would also like to discard Broken from these entirely.
So, here are my suggestions:
Invocation: Treacherous Crows
• Remove the terror radius condition.
• Replace Broken with Oblivious.
• Now, joining the ritual for at least 15 seconds increases the duration of the aura read by 0,5 seconds instead of speeding it up.Invocation: Weaving Spiders:
• Replace the Broken with Exposed.
• The charge reduction is now postponed in a case of a blocked generator.
• Now, joining the ritual for at least 10 seconds increases the charge reduction by 3 instead of speeding it up.What's wrong with Invocations stacking?
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I honestly think the issue with Invocations is that the numbers aren't worth the effect.
Weaving Spiders is pretty close, and it might benefit from a small numbers buff, but the REAL issue is that it isn't always consistent, since the developers have decided it would not apply to blocked generators. This needs to be fixed.
Treacherous Crows on the other hand could do with the Terror Radius requirement being dropped, and the numbers upped to 3 seconds.
That's pretty much what I suggested for Weaving Spiders, so, yes.
As for Treacherous Crows, I still feel the killer being the one to startle the crow makes it too inconsistent. If it's changed to anyone startling a crow, but the terror radius requirement remains, you've got a much more consistent version of the effect.
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They'd have to keep the flashlight clicking out, that was changed for legitimate accessibility issues and shouldn't be brought back.
Everything else, though, sure, I could see a limited time mode for classic DBD being interesting. It wouldn't be fun because the game was an unbalanced mess, but it'd be a neat novelty.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879172#Comment_3879172
I guess my next question would be bloated for who?
Playing Wesker, the primary thing you have to worry about is the tentacle power. There are various creative ways you can use that power, but I think that's pretty normal for killers.
As survivor, you have to worry deal with the tentacle strikes and the infection. Neither seems bloated and have meaningful interactions.
I feel like you are counting multiple elements of the same thing in a way that would be true for lots of killers.
You break the tentacle strike down into: its ability to damage and its ability to displace. You break the consequences down into Hindered and Instadown, and then on the cure for giving notifications.
Breaking other killers down the same way will quickly make it look like bloat:
Plague
-Two types of attack, vomit that can hit survivors, gens, pallets, ledges, an infection that takes a healthy state and the survivor makes noise, a cure mechanic that makes noise and opens up a new power
Sadako
-A teleport, that also function as an infection, a slowdown (turning off TVs) that also works as an infection, a fully infected status that also gives killer instinct on top of death, a slow down mechanic (TVs), and invisibility and a lullaby.
I really don't think DbD killers have much of a bloat problem for either survivors (i.e. a killer which would have too much to learn) or killers. There are balance issues, and killers have bloat in that there are just so many of them for new players, but I don't think there's a killer I have an issue with because they are bloated.
Bloat isn't and hasn't ever been purely about the number of effects - I listed them out in my post because it is important, but it's really more about how the effects interact with one another. I didn't list the ones I felt didn't fit with the others because I was hoping that would be the overall point of discussion, but I will candidly admit that obviously did not work, lol.
When you break down other killers' powers into the effects they have, it's more obvious how those things fit together.
Plague, for example, really only does two things. She has the infection that builds to Broken, and she has the Corrupt Purge. We can maybe count her ability to infect objects as a third thing, but if we do, it's obviously in service to the fact that the infection builds to Broken. That's a nasty effect to have up permanently, so survivors being Broken pushes them to cleanse… but if they do, Plague gets a very powerful chase ability in Corrupt Purge.
Her power is designed to feed into itself that way, and push survivors to make decisions regarding which downside is likely to be more damaging to them at any given moment.
Sadako… is a mess. The previous version of Sadako worked in exactly the way I've been talking about, though. Her teleport builds her Condemned, pushing survivors to pick up tapes, which also turns off her teleport points, but holding tapes leaves them vulnerable if she's good at smacking them out of their hands. There was a clear cycle that her mechanics all played off- even her stealth allowing her to ambush survivors high on Condemned worked in service of the whole. She could and likely would at various times engage with only one part when it benefited her most, but the pieces all fit together well when she got the ball rolling.
Wesker, though, has these extra bits that don't really fit that way. He has parts that do - his M2 ability is strong in its own right, and it inflicts an infection that pushes survivors off generators to cleanse it lest they end up at more risk than normal from the M2. But, as I laid out, it also does more than just that, with little pieces that just seem to Also Be There.
For the question about bloated for who… I mean, only people talking about the killer's overall design, definitely. There's a reason I don't think it's a huge problem, after all. I just think Wesker's kit is more bloated and has far more room for tightening up than people claim.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879172#Comment_3879172
The KI on cleanse is to encourage Wesker to split targets.
Giving soft information like that is an okay way to softly corral some people into not tunneling a single person. If you cleanse, you're probably healed and in a safe place.
I guess, but that still feels a little arbitrary to me.
You could just as easily argue that if you're cleansing, you've recently been unhooked, because you really don't want to let it build again. I don't think it neatly cuts either way, and while generally giving some information is a good idea, not every killer necessarily needs it basekit. It becomes extra stuff tacked on in addition to the stuff that meshes for the cohesive whole… which is pretty much the definition of bloat.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879089#Comment_3879089
I'm opening up a conversation about a killer power I think is a little bit bloated to see if anyone has a compelling counter argument.Reading through the thread, there isn't really an "argument". There's a feeling, basically 'doesn't this feel like too many things?'.
Without some standard way to define bloated, we're just going off feelings. To me, and it seems others, no, not at all.
He's got a couple of minor abilities that, as you said, if you removed probably wouldn't make much of a difference, but leaving them in doesn't make much of a difference either. Some killers can be A or S tier from just one ability (Nurse), others require a combination of elements.
Like is there some other killer that you would also say is bloated for comparison sake?
There aren't that many comparisons because not many killers really have extraneous stuff like Wesker does. I didn't want to be too forward with my position because I wanted to get a sense for other people's opinions on Wesker's overall design and how the individual parts of his kit fit into the whole, but I can definitely elaborate a little on that here.
To me, it's a question of asking what the parts of a kit do for the whole. In some cases for Wesker, it's obvious- for instance, his pseudo-instadown at max infection is meant to make the Virulent Bound more threatening than it already is, and as a direct consequence of that, push survivors towards engaging with the First Aid Spray mechanic.
But then you look at the other elements of the infection and the answer gets less clear. Take the Hindered- it does basically function the same way the pseudo-instadown does, but it can't really be allowed to be too strong or it breaks the balance of his power, leaving it in this sort of halfway state where it exists, and it's potent enough to be noticeable… but only barely, and his power's designed around it not being in play much. Why's it even there? I could absolutely see it being appropriate to replace this instead of remove it, but I'm not convinced it's core to Wesker's power level or identity and I'm pretty sure just outright removing it wouldn't actually harm him very much- which isn't ideal for a killer's power.
After that, the Killer Instinct, which I think is the most obviously "extra and arbitrary" part of his power. If we want survivors to engage with First Aid Sprays, why does Wesker gets notified when they do? The clearest comparison here is Nemesis, who has literally the exact same mechanic… except for him it makes sense, because he needs to keep the infection up for his power to be capable of doing damage, leaving him a little more like Plague where you're taking something away from him but giving him something else. For Wesker, you're hit by the brunt of Virulent Bound either way, so ridding yourself infection is just inviting him to hit you with Virulent Bound again. It's nice for him to have, sure, but how does it actually tie into a coherent gameplay loop?
My opinion is mostly that the core of Wesker's power is well designed, but he has more unnecessary flab surrounding it than other killers do. I don't think it's a huge problem, to be clear, but I do think it's there and it was obvious others didn't feel the same way from how I'd seen conversations about him go in the past.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879114#Comment_3879114
If you don't think he's too strong then why say
I'd probably not stop at just nerfing him
This implies that you would nerf him to start with.
The fact that the things I want to remove are things I think don't make him too strong is what makes it bloat in my eyes. He just doesn't need it, and removing it wouldn't really affect him all that much, he'd still be just as strong.
I think this idea of minimalist design is harmful to the player experience to be honest. You also haven't stated what the "need" is. The developers want killers to have a 60% kill rate and according to community collected stats (NightLight) Wesker is actually falling considerably below this.
If you throw stats out of the window though and rely on subjectiveness most people would seem to agree he shouldn't lose or gain anything.
I think infection being removed on hook would be a bad change because it means it would basically be irrelevant when the killer plays for hooks, which is the playstyle most seem to prefer. Therefore it would only work if you slugged which i don't think should be encouraged because it's unfun and the game is generally designed around hooks. There's is also 12 cures available in total which is the same amount of maximum hooks for the killer.I'm open about the fact that taking away bloat is, strictly speaking, a nerf. It's stuff he did have before that he wouldn't afterwards, in a literal sense it's a nerf. It's not a nerf that'd matter, but it is a nerf.
I haven't stated a need because there isn't one. I've noticed before people tend to dislike bloated powers, with one very obvious example being Skull Merchant but I've seen it elsewhere before, and I've also seen people suggest that Wesker's power is the pinnacle of good design. There's an obvious contradiction there, so I'm curious about why people would think he isn't bloated.
I can understand wanting powers to have more than strictly necessary for expression's sake, but I don't really agree. I would argue that the best way to design a killer is for everything in the basekit to operate around the same basic idea for how the killer plays, with some room for variation within that space. Most killers are actually designed this way already, Wesker's one of the big exceptions in that he gets extra stuff that doesn't revolve around his overall identity.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879109#Comment_3879109
You think that his kit is bloated and that is a problem because you think he is too strong - This is where many people are going to disagree with you.
Bloat is not a problem unless it causes a problem, and many people including myself think there is no problem, so thats why trying to make this thread about wesker being only bloated isn't going to work.
Also, infection does reset to 1% after hook. If you're suggesting that infection should be removed on hook i think that would be ridiculous.I don't think he's too strong, I think he's bloated.
If I thought he were too strong, I'd have made a thread in the other section about how to change it.
The fact that the things I want to remove are things I think don't make him too strong is what makes it bloat in my eyes. He just doesn't need it, and removing it wouldn't really affect him all that much, he'd still be just as strong.
Also, yes, I think infection being removed on hook would make sense. What would make that suggestion ridiculous? That's the kind of conversation I was hoping to have, for the record, I disagree with that statement and I'm curious about the counterargument.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879095#Comment_3879095
I don't like the idea of removing bloat when that means nerfing a killer though, i just think the priorities are not right there.
To directly address your points though :
- First two are essential to his kit being fun and unique and i don't see them as problematic
- Needs the next two points otherwise survivors have no reason to cleanse. He has an infection mechanic because it's Resident Evil.
- Killer instinct on cleanse is mainly QOL for the killer so they can keep track of when first aid sprays are being used. It makes it so that infection doesn't feel useless, and rewards the killer for hitting bounds rather than basic attacks.
- The design choice is up for debate as to why they even did it but it's generally not a positive for the killer considering terror radius perks are not meta.
- This point is actually pretty major when it comes to tunnelling. Other times though they did it because they want to make it clear to survivors when they recieve collateral damage. You could make a point for deep wound being unnecessary in this case but again i don't see it as problematic so i don't feel there's a need to remove it. Even when it comes to tunnelling there's other killers that can do similar damage and i don't see why wesker in particular should lose it.Well, I'm not really suggesting anything at this stage. If I were to suggest changes, I'd probably not stop at just nerfing him. There are three things I'd probably look at as the main problem points of his kit - Hindered and Killer Instinct as the bloat he doesn't need, and infection not resetting when you're hooked as a more generic issue - but I wouldn't just stop at changing those, most likely.
The reason I think it's bloat and not an overpowered kit is that you could just change those three things and he'd probably be completely unaffected in 90% of scenarios and not even all that badly affected in the remaining 10%, but if you're already rolling your sleeves up to change him, there's no reason you couldn't tighten him up more.
For instance, the Hindered could be replaced with something a little more sensible and less directly related to the chase, or you could buff Virulent Bound directly to compensate for him losing a few things. This isn't a nerf thread, I'm not just suggesting nerfing him here. I'm not even suggesting that at all at this stage, there's just a discussion here because so many people think Wesker's design is borderline perfect.
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@Memesis said:
Are people really upset about first aid sprays giving 2 seconds of killer instinct? Really? All the other problems in the game? You realize you can just wait to first aid spray until a pick-up or if your teammate is just being chased. Wesker has arguably the most balanced power in the game.
I feel like I'm gonna be repeating that I want to talk about whether Wesker's kit is bloated and that I don't think it's actively overpowered or anything quite a lot, at this rate.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879089#Comment_3879089
You're implicitly implying that his kit is bloated therefore should have things taken away, lets be real.
Yes, I am.
I'm also asking people for counter arguments. This isn't a nerf thread, this is me stating my position and asking people to give theirs. I think it's pretty bloated and a few things could be removed or tweaked, but I also know Wesker has a reputation for being very well designed, so I wanted to invite some discussion on the topic.
I'm interested to know why people think the stuff I would call unnecessary bloat is actually necessary and healthy for his kit.
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@Sandt1985 said:
Are you actually suggesting nerfs to one of the most balanced killers in the game?
I think there's something genuinely interesting about how many people interpreted this question as a comment about strength or counterplay instead of what it was, which is killer design.
So, no, I am not suggesting anything at all here. I'm opening up a conversation about a killer power I think is a little bit bloated to see if anyone has a compelling counter argument.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3878903#Comment_3878903
Anyone with any common sense will know that these perks are bad. defending the perk is wild endeavour to support bad perks and empty perk content.
Rapid Brutality is a good example of a trade where it makes sense - you get a very strong Haste effect in chase, but give up the basekit Haste effect
First, I disagree that the perk need downside. Second, the perk downside in most instances is irrelevant for killer that use them. For example, Hux is a killer that uses this perk. The downside has relatively low impact on average for experienced killers but needless punishes killers.
The part I'm confused about is where you seem to just be talking about how a perk is designed…?
A perk can be designed with implicit downsides. You can also remove implicit downsides by designing the perk to not be trash. let's use this no quarter perk as example to that.
The goal of the perk is to delay survivors healing to soft-counter perks like solidarity, resurgence and reactive healing. The perk conditions and downsides prevent it from activating in experience matches as few people will fail skill-check.
A version of the perk that would be superior and more usable in average match is following:
When you begin a healing action from injured to healthy[Downside to prevent activating on slugs], you become broken for 30 seconds. No quarter may only cause broken once per health-state[Prevents perk from infinity looping].
you can do this with all of the perks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3878919#Comment_3878919
Harden requires you to do a totem. you cannot ignore the thrill of the hunt+Face the darkness with Harden. you can only do that at 4 totems but thrill becomes weaker as soon as you break one of them. The perk does not perform the ice breaker status like Calm spirit does.
For the record, at no stage did I defend any of those perks. I just pointed out that they don't have downsides the way that something like Rapid Brutality or Dark Arrogance does.
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@Skoegul said:
I mean, he has a massive ego, of course he needs to have the biggest terror radius in the game.
But no. Wesker isn't bloated, he is incredibly well designed and is quite counterable. You get a clear sound notification when he readies his bound (his nasty little chuckle), giving you plenty of time to check his position and get ready to dodge. If Wesker can't hit his bound, he can't infect you. And his entire infection mechanic is tied to him hitting this bound.
Insta-down? Again tied to infecting a survivor first, THEN the survivor has to not use a spray for over a minute. So that part is completely deniable and yet again tied to how the survivor plays. And if you're worried about killer instinct? Don't spray right next to him. You mentioned his massive terror radius. It's easy to tell how far away he is from you. You literally control where and when you trigger his killer instinct and trust me, if you're far enough away or he's in chase/hooking someone/found a shiny corner to practize his hugtech on he won't bother coming for you. Also: Heal first, THEN spray. Don't tell him where you are before you let your team mate heal you. Heal > Spray > Run.
Hitting one survivor into another also doesn't happen often unless you specifically target unhooks. There's an achievement for that for a reason.
Many parts of his 'kit' depend on how the survivors play and act. Learn to dodge and pay attention where and when you spray. It's very hard to run out of spray cans and usually requires a Wesker to deliberately play towards achieving that. And the ones that do are often the meme-y type or are in a meme-y mood.
I know he's counterable and I know what his counterplay is, that wasn't the question.
Take the Killer Instinct, since that's probably the thing I'd argue is most indicative of the reason I made this thread to begin with, albeit not the only thing. Absolutely there are ways to play around it - heal first, don't be too close, as you say. Fully agreed, it's not something that will always mess you up from the survivor perspective.
…Why does he have it, though?
What's its purpose in his kit, and is that purpose actually necessary? What about his kit requires him to know when you're undoing the infection that his already decent dash ability gives on top of damage and positioning?
I'm not even necessarily saying it is too much, this isn't a rant thread. I do think it is, to be clear, but I wanted to spark a discussion about it. Why does he have all these extra bells and whistles on top of the core of his power, would he actually be considerably worse off without them, that kind of question.