jesterkind
jesterkind
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885880#Comment_3885880
I'm using it the same too. I spread hooks 90% of my games.
…Then what exactly is your argument here?
Sometimes there are teams you can't beat without leaning on something unbalanced…? I mean, sure, fine, you can't win every match, I don't see that as a reason why the basic fundamental skills of the game are a bad strategy.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885872#Comment_3885872
Because like I said, 90% of my games I do play to the "fundamentals". You seem to think that I hard tunnel and camp every game when I'm just saying that spreading hooks is a dogshit strategy and that tunneling is necessary in some situations.
I feel like maybe you're using the term fundamentals differently to me, because I am using that term interchangeably with spreading pressure.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885861#Comment_3885861
The short term dip has existed for 5 years. Playing "as intended" is still a terrible strategy for reasons I've mentioned.
If you haven't been consistently playing that way for five years, how would you be experiencing the dip?
The dip is personal. It's while you get better at playing to the fundamentals, not until the game changes around you.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885851#Comment_3885851
There is no "default" way to play the game. That's rulebook logic.
For now, spreading hooks IS the bad card. It's a bad strategy for reasons I've mentioned. Saying that its the intended or default way of playing the game doesn't change that.
If they want to actually buff the bad card, then good, please do.
But I've been waiting 5 years for that safeguard to come and it never has.I mean, there is a default way to play the game? At least, insofar as the game obviously has a core gameplay loop.
Find, chase, down, hook, repeat. That's the core gameplay loop of killer in DBD, there's no getting around that.
I'm not saying you have to do that blindly and with no alterations, I'm saying that tunnelling is designed to cut out big chunks of that loop. No finding survivors, no dealing with two health states in chase (barring certain perks anyway), no worrying about the chase starting in a bad position, and ultimately, massively empowering that loop once you're done by being in a 1v3 early.
Again, some ways of cutting out parts of the loop are legitimate because they don't give disproportionate rewards. Info perks to make tracking survivors easier, for example, is a shortcut, and one that isn't unbalanced in the way that tunnelling is. If tunnelling were riskier, if it were more possible for survivors to last as long or longer in chase while tunnelled as they would in other circumstances so killers were more likely to lose off the back of that ostensible gamble, tunnelling wouldn't be the problem that it is right now.
As for the safeguard, it exists right now. You take the short-term dip in results, and in exchange, BHVR are far less likely to demolish your entire gameplan with a balance update. That's the safeguard.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885823#Comment_3885823
yeah dude, I'm aware of how the game works. ya can stop speaking to me like im a 500 hour noob who hard tunnels and camps every game because waaaaaahh the game is so hard and survivor sided.
yes, people need to learn the fundamentals because those help you in all aspects of the game.
I know those fundamentals because I use them in most of my games and win nearly every time.
But if you wanna talk learning, experience, and player skill, then we can talk about the fact that a major aspect to DbD (which takes as much experience to understand as the fundamentals themselves) is that those strategies just don't work against any team that is good. If a team is ultra efficient and good in chase then you just cannot afford to handicap yourself, sorry. That's the way it is and no amount of "spreading pressure" will change that unless you're playing Nurse because spreading pressure relies on the survivors being bad. That's why it works in most games, because most survivors are bad.
It also makes me bristle when people say that killers are "bad" or "crutching" when they tunnel because they actually want to win lmao.
Imagine you're playing Chess and the MMR is set to where you'll go against bad players 90% of the time. Then someone comes up to you and is like, "you can win without a queen bro, its a fine strategy I do it all the time, you just need to be good" and you win those 90% of games without a queen. And then, out of nowhere, you go against a grandmaster who's using everything in their ability to win. You decide to use your queen because why shouldn't you? Your opponent is doing literally everything in their power to win and using every tool at their disposal. You'd be a fool to not do the same because that would basically make the match over before it starts. You win the game, then that guy comes back and is like "nah dude, you relied on the crutch that is the queen, just use the fundamentals because the queen is for noobs and is a cheese piece that's easy to use and crutch on, get better"
It's almost comical. Trying to tell players that they should purposely use the bad card in the card game (while all their opponents are using the good card) and if they wanna use the good card too then that means they're crutching.I think part of the disconnect here is that you're treating the basic gameplay loop as a handicap - playing without a queen in chess, using bad cards in a card game - instead of the default.
This naturally leads tunnelling to look like its the default, instead. After all, it's expected that you'll be trying to win.
The issue here is, it glides over tunnelling being unbalanced, and it glides over tunnelling being a shortcut that bypasses a good chunk of the game. That last part isn't inherently negative, all kinds of legitimate shortcuts exist in the game, but it is true of tunnelling either way.
So, to be clear, spreading pressure isn't handicapping yourself, it's playing to the default challenge level of the game, for lack of a better term. Tunnelling is lowering that default challenge, by taking away avenues for your opponent to outplay you. You get to skip an entire health state, you get to start the chase in a favourable position because the survivor's still close to the hook, and if successful, you get to put yourself in a winning position overall very early into the match.
Play however you want. If you want to have the absolute highest chance of winning the matches you're currently playing, by all means, tunnel. My only position here is that you'd be better served in the long run not leaning on something that's currently unbalanced, because when it is inevitably balanced by a patch (looking to be sometime in the back half of this year, if the roadmap is anything to go by) you're going to start floundering.
Maybe that means, in the short term, you'll lose to teams that you'd currently consider "good". Some would argue that means you aren't at a skill level where you should beat those teams- unless you'd argue you sit at the very pinnacle of skill it's possible to achieve in this game, which seems like an unfair assumption for me to make about your position. In the long run, though, after that adjustment period, it'll safeguard your gameplay against balance changes and improve your overall skill at the game.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885801#Comment_3885801
it feels like you are trying to persuade me into playing a certain way and not actually sell me on why the strategy is good.
I have lots of time on this game. I know how it ends when you play nice against good players who dont show the same mercy lol. This isn't some intervention about my own skill. Any experienced player knows that playing nice is not a good strategy because survivors just hammer gens.
again, the strategy revolves around survivors going down very quickly. that's the only case that makes up for intentionally handicapping yourself and keeping everybody alive. and good players dont do that. im not trying to be rude but I've explained that 4 timesI'm not trying to persuade you of anything, no. Well, except that playing the fundamentals is a sounder strategy than leaning on crutches like tunnelling, but I don't personally care if you act on that fact. Play however you want, I just bristle a little when people claim you have to do these things. Of course you don't, you can play the game perfectly well by sticking to the fundamentals.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885802#Comment_3885802
if there are perks that are so terrible no one would want to play with you if they knew your build, that is a bigger issue.
The thing is, not everyone's going to agree on what those perks are, and some people have extremely strict definitions for what counts as a dodge-worthy perk.
Lobby dodging is a legitimate issue already, anything that makes it worse wouldn't be a great idea.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885792#Comment_3885792
"one of them is on the hook, one of them being chased, and one of them has to leave the gen"
ok, im chasing the one guy. he doesn't go down in 20 seconds so that means there's still 50 seconds left on the hook timer because 70 sec hook stage. the survivor on the gen go gets the save, they both heal, since the survivor I was chasing is good and maybe the map is busted still have not gotten them yet. the strategy depends on people going down in 20 seconds.
and besides, what would be the best play in this situation? going to the hook where the hooked person + rescuer is so I can get an easy extra hook stage on the guy who got unhooked (and pressure the other survivor) or keep looking around for people so I can purposely keep them alive, allowing those two survivors to group up on that gen that one of them was working on which will be done by the time I get over there?
its just not a good strategy, im sorry.
also you dont need to be "around the hook" for tunneling. it sure helps, but is not necessary.During the time you laid out, you are occupying three survivors.
The travel time counts, the healing time definitely counts, and the travel time back also counts. You don't need them to be doing literally nothing, you just need them to not be doing generators. Hell, some killers have built-in things some survivors have to be doing, like Pig's RBTs or Pinhead's Lament Configuration, which only bolsters this strategy more.
And yeah, it does rely on you getting the down somewhat quickly, so you do actually have to be good in chase and you may occasionally have to drop that chase to pressure someone else instead, but you don't have to be lightning fast. Just fast enough that there's not much time between the survivor who was on the hook getting back into the action and someone new being on the hook— because at that point, the cycle starts again and the generator repair is interrupted, again.
For the record, you use the term "looking for a survivor" in there, so I should state real quick that ideally you shouldn't be spending any time looking for a survivor, you should already know where your next chase is. Obviously that's not always achievable, but it can be pretty reliably done with the right gamesense and/or perks.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885777#Comment_3885777
I never said that tunneling is just as difficult. Tunneling IS easier, because keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as you can literally allows full efficiency from the survivors.
The bottom line is that yeah, you can "spread pressure" and still win against most teams in this game. But it is an absolutely horrible strategy when you go against a team who is coordinated and good at looping. Walking from survivor to survivor so you can get fresh hooks just allows them to do gens with no fear knowing that the next kill you get will be 4 hooks down the line.
This has nothing to do with skill. Watch some of the best competitive players in the world play pubs; when they try to do that against a 4 man even they get destroyed because it is a bad strategy.I feel like, if you're successfully employing this strategy, the survivors very much don't get to just do gens with no fear.
After all, one of them is on the hook, one of them is being chased, and one of them will have to leave their gen to get the save at least somewhat quickly.
Compare that to hovering around the hook for tunnelling- in that scenario, there's definitely more generator repair happening, because you're only really occupying two survivors at once. If you can get that done quickly enough, it breaks in your favour because a 1v3 massively favours the killer, but it's still much less efficient and conveys much less slowdown while you're doing it.
The fact of the matter is, deviations from the core gameplay loop that give better rewards for lower effort than that gameplay loop are going to get changed at some point. In my opinion, it's a lot better to learn the fundamentals, since those aren't likely to get significant changes and any balance changes that do happen won't as badly affect your ability to perform.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885767#Comment_3885767
that description makes it sound like a strategy where you can turn your brain off and automatically win. due to the endless amount of tools that good survivors have been given to counter tunneling, that is not the case if youre going against someone actually good in chase
So if it's hard either way, why not go for the option that's going to slow the generators down and that fewer people complain about?
It can't be simultaneously true that spreading pressure is too difficult and tunnelling is easier, but also tunnelling is just as difficult to pull off.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885759#Comment_3885759
it does need to be that quick tho.
sure, if im playing an a tier killer its a lot more viable.
but even still, getting someone out ASAP is so much better than purposely keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as possible.
it requires more effort, its stressful, and it falls apart when all 4 survivors are great loopers. … so why should killers do it?Well, you're certainly right about that last part.
Tunnelling is much easier. You don't have to worry about half the game's mechanics, you don't have to play tactically, you can just leverage the fact that survivors are more vulnerable immediately post-unhook and win much more consistently off chases that are twice as easy.
That's an argument for tunnelling being unbalanced, not the basic gameplay loop being a bad strategy.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885745#Comment_3885745
then that's wonderful dude, that strategy revolves around survivors going down in 20 seconds and if you tell me youre able to do it while playing c tier killers like pig then that tells me you are not going against good survivors.
ill tell you I wish "Spreading pressure" was a good strategy against decent players, im not trying to be some toxic a-hole by tunneling, but the fact is that they've nerfed every incentive to play nice in this game.
btw, there is such a thing as smart tunneling where you still bother gens and other people, not just chasing one survivor for 6 minutes.Obviously it's harder on some killers than others, but you can do it on anyone.
You don't necessarily need chases to be that quick for it to work, since by design you're slowing down generator repair by a lot when you do it.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885735#Comment_3885735
I do actually agree with you that people should practice it, cuz some people automatically think "oh tunneling is the best strategy I'll just do that every game". going out of your way to "spread pressure" is a bad strategy but you only learn that after years of trying it.
but its used as a buzzword by people who want to gaslight you into thinking youre just bad at the game and that you can 8 hook as trapper if youre just good enough, which is not the caseThat depends on how you define spreading pressure, because to me it's a very good strategy. It's not as easy as tunnelling, slugging, or any other shortcut strategy that pops up, somewhat definitionally, but it's very worthwhile and it's basically safeguarded against nerfs since it's adaptable.
Pressure, to me, should be defined as survivors being either forced or heavily encouraged to do something other than generators. A survivor on the hook is pressured, they cannot do generators, and the survivor coming to save them is pressured since they can't do that while repairing. To spread your pressure, in this context, would be to already be in a chase before the save happens, because that's a third survivor that's pressured, you can't do gens in chase.
If you're good at locating survivors and you're good at getting reasonably fast downs, this strategy (really it's just the core gameplay loop) absolutely works.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885630#Comment_3885630
yearly reminder to never listen to anyone who utters the words "spread pressure"
its the equivalent of a survivor telling you to "just wait it out" with old dead hardIt's a term people use in an unhelpfully vague manner a lot, but I'd argue there's a definition of spreading pressure that's very useful and something a lot of players probably do need to practice getting better at.
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To answer the question about the anti-genrush, did you see the part of the roadmap where they talk about addressing survivor spawns so that they can't all spawn spread out anymore?
Even if we define genrushing as just survivors doing their objective efficiently (instead of the more reasonable and actually useful definition of bringing stacked toolboxes with supporting perks), that's gonna be a huge knock to the team's ability to get the ball rolling. With that change implemented, the average killer early game will go substantially more in their favour.
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@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885702#Comment_3885702
Trapper and Hag absolutely need to play territorial in high level. It's not even cheesy crutch it's just how those killers are played. It's unpopular though which is why those killers are unpopular. Will be even more if devs are not considering them with these changes.
There's a difference between playing territorial and camping, though.
Hag and Trapper generally want to stick to the same half of the map, not super close specifically to a hooked survivor. Obviously we'll have to wait and see here, but I genuinely don't see any possible version of an anti-camp feature that requires you to go stand on the other side of the map entirely.
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BHVR's been steadily buffing killers and killer perks over the past few years, I don't anticipate that changing any time soon.
More killers are in a healthy spot now than ever, and I definitely disagree that any of them need to lean on the cheesy crutch strats being discussed here. I could see killers like Oni and Twins being potentially harmed by anti-slug if it isn't done properly, though, so that's what I'll be looking out for most personally.
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@Marzipan210 said:
The solution to the slugging meta isn't to make more perks basekit. The solution to the slugging meta is to unnerf hook perks like pop and pain res and dms, and bring back 60 second hook stages - which was an unnecessary nerf to killer considering they had already introduced anti-face camping.
Pain Res is still one of the best perks in the game, I don't see how making it even stronger again is going to move the needle. Pop maybe, that perk is a little mediocre at the moment, but the fact remains that hooking is completely worth it and entirely viable even if none of your perks activate from the hook.
As for the hook stages thing… what would that achieve except for making camping stronger again?
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The audio bugs were the ones being fixed in the latest patch.
Anecdotally, I feel like I've heard the sound going off every time Flashbang's been used recently, so I thiiiiink it worked.
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I've been using it as an excuse to catch up on my writing and on the various CDs I've been collecting over the last few months, lol.
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What changed about the classes? I thought they were basically the exact same, which tbh I was a little disappointed by in and of itself.
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I have a couple issues with this pitch myself, just personally speaking.
The first one is the elephant in the room so I'll address it first. Stealth is, of course, completely viable and very much an option… as long as by "stealth" you don't mean "crouching in a bush". That's no longer 100% reliable and can be quite risky if you haven't seen the killer demonstrate their perks yet.
Stealth is a playstyle that involves leveraging specific tools and making specific decisions, at least if you want it to be less of a risk.
Beyond that, the thing about killer aura reading perks is that there may be a large number of them… but most of them aren't very good, and a lot of them aren't ones that'll catch you when you're trying to stealth. I'm All Ears, Predator, and Zanshin Tactics are part of the list of aura perks, but they only activate in chase, they can't be used to give "free" hits on someone trying to crouch behind a wall.
Similarly, something like BBQ, Alien Instinct, Friends til the End, and even arguably Gearhead can't be used that way, they either activate when the killer's further away or they outright require you to be doing something that isn't trying to play stealthy.
If we're talking about aura perks that actually affect trying to play stealthy the list is a lot shorter, and not particularly overbearing. They each have clear activation conditions that limit their use, and there are tools to defend against them on the survivor side too. The only real exception is Nowhere To Hide, that perk is not telegraphed and is a little too good at revealing survivors just in general instead of only catching people trying to crouch near the gen. I would support that perk being nerfed.
So, adding in the Revealed status effect would just be far too harsh of a nerf to a broadly unproblematic perk class. There are ways of defending against the tools that exist, each of those tools (with one exception) is well balanced or at least not problematic, the killer can't have more than four at once, and learning how to spot what the killer has is part of getting better at the game so you should expect newer players are going to be surprised by pretty much any perk that can directly affect them.
Now, all that being said, I do have a compromise suggestion that I think would help out newer players a lot, I've talked about it before: Make this effect something a perk does. Specifically, make it what Spine Chill does. That's a universal perk, everyone has it by default, and its current effect is quite bad- plus, this effect would be very thematic to the perk's name and flavour text.
That way, newer players have a clear tool to use for learning when the killer can see them, but it's not an overbearing basekit change that'd severely harm an entire class. Plus, more established players can get a lot out of knowing exactly when they're being seen too, so it's not even just a new player perk either.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
You create multiple posts about how awful it is that killers slug survivors, and think of ways to punish killers for slugging survivors…..
….and now you want to add a new way to punish killers if they don't slug survivors?
Well, I went out of my way to think of a pitch that couldn't be abused to force slugging the way CURRENT Power Struggle can be, so… no?
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Seems like a good approach to me.
Personally I never much cared that the bots were in 2v8, but I definitely noticed it didn't really do much to help killer queue times, they're still excessively long. Can't say for sure if any of this will help, but we won't know until they try, so good call to do it.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884369#Comment_3884369
Nah, zero sense was made
Its like running the new "self care" to heal yourself at 10% instead of running Claudette's Self Care
Healing at 10% is an observably, measurably bad effect, though.
In fact, bolstering your argument, Self-Care itself is a measurably bad effect. Healing in 45 seconds is just too slow to be worthwhile, and is in fact actively detrimental to use without bringing other supporting perks to mitigate how damn slow that heal is.
A better argument to make here would be that because Strength in Shadows exists, a perk with a much faster speed and an aura reveal in exchange for very slight risk, we can conclude letting some perks simply be better in exchange for a small amount of risk doesn't work because why would you ever bring Self-Care when it's outclassed in every way by its (non-base character) teachable equivalent despite that equivalent carrying a small amount of risk.
To which, just so I'm being thorough, I would respond by saying that knowing what your opponent is running with no downsides is not actively detrimental to you the way spending 45 seconds healing is. It's a case of both effects being positive and one being more positive, not one being outright negative with the other being outright positive.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884351#Comment_3884351
My fellow forum member, you are worried about the killer seeing your aura for 3 seconds every 30 seconds? The vast majority of the time the killer will not even notice your aura. If you are doing a gen you aura can easily hide behind the gen's aura. Other moments the killer is busy chasing or hunting a different survivor, or even looking at a different direction. Unless you wanna hide all the time, which is the style of gameplay BHVR doesn't want people to do, hence the Distortion nerf, then sure OoO is not a perk for you. And Decisive Strike has returned to be part of the meta, half the time you won't even be the obsession, so the perk is doing the exact same job as your Spine Chill "buff" but better
I'll give this another shot but I think we may have to just go our separate ways on this front:
Object of Obsession is designed to be used in a particular way, because it carries with it a small but noticeable risk of the killer targeting you when that wouldn't be favourable. It pushes you to play aggressively and try to leverage its effects in chase, because that's when it's most useful and because anything else you do could be interrupted by the killer because of the perk.
It's a good perk. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's designed in a way that makes it most appealing to a particular playstyle.
Spine Chill with these proposed changes would be designed to be used in a different way, as more of a pure information-gathering tool that consistently tells you what aura perks the killer has without any risk or downside. It's potential impact would be lower than Object of Obsession, but it'd be a much more stable and consistent pick without the variance in how much value it gives versus how much risk you're taking on.
As it's a universal perk, it being designed to be more stable and consistent is perfectly legitimate. You'd have options for how you want to go about gaining that information depending on how you like to play and what extra value you want, because the universal pick is the most straightforward and least impactful but the teachable perks have higher impact with the tradeoff of either less consistency or higher risk.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884344#Comment_3884344
There is absolutely ZERO CHANCES you are being serious right now, ZERO
Are you really saying that- a perk that tells you the killer is seeing your aura in exchange for 3% speed bonus
is better than
- a perk that tells you the killer is seeing your aura in exchange for 6% bonus and you seeing the killer's aura as well
I just can't believe you truly believe in your own words. I rather believe you just don't like to agree with other people in a discussion and defend your own point of view at all costs.
I feel like you're forgetting that Object of Obsession ALSO shows your aura to the killer every thirty seconds?
Spine Chill wouldn't have any risk of that aura reveal backfiring because it wouldn't have that aura reveal. It'd be information you get that the killer does not know you have and cannot turn against you.
I'm not making out that Object is weak, it's not, but it's a perk for a very specific kind of player who wants to use it in a very specific kind of way. Spine Chill as a weaker overall but much more stable and safe version, one that is available via the universal pool instead of being attached to a licensed survivor, is a completely reasonable pitch.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884333#Comment_3884333
Everytime the killer sees your aura, you see their aura and gain 6% speed bonus
It's not literally the same thing, it's even better
Makes no sense to have 2 perks doing the exact same thing but one is doing worse than the other
It's like if they release a new perk that allows you to heal yourself without a medkit at a 10% speed
I think you might be conflating "better" with "more appealing", because to me, this proposed version of Spine Chill would absolutely be more appealing, that's a subjective thing revolving around your preferences.
The ability to track the killer's perks and know exactly when you're being seen without the downside of Object or the inconsistency of Distortion would be very worth bringing, even when you're trading away the extra value of those perks to get it.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884269#Comment_3884269
This is literally Object of Obsession
It's similar, but not identical.
Object shows your aura to the killer by itself, making it inherently the riskier perk, and it also has a higher bonus to the action speeds than 3% - specifically, 6%.
I don't think it's necessarily a problem for some perks to be similar to one another but provide different use cases because of their differences. Object is very clearly more of a chase perk, one that carries big risk to its use for potentially explosive rewards as you get wallhacks on the killer mid-chase. Spine Chill here, by comparison, would be the perk you'd pick if you want to track what perks the killer has but you don't want the risk or reward that Object provides.
Plus, Object is a licensed perk and Spine Chill is a universal perk, so having weaker versions of licensed perks available to everyone is another angle from which this change could be pretty appropriate.
It also puts Spine Chill in a position where it's a weaker version of Distortion, too, putting the three perks in conversation with one another. Do you actually want to hide and track the killer's perks? Bring Distortion. Do you want to track the killer's perks and shoulder some risk for looping value? Run Object. Want to track the killer's perks and you're okay giving up on those two other things? Spine Chill.
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@Kwikwitted said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883919#Comment_3883919
How does giving survivors an extra 20 seconds to finish generators give the KILLER value exactly?
Also, no, hooked survivors are easily located thanks to the notification upon hook (also if one survivor is running kindred they are seen at all times including killer aura when close to hook). There is no searching for them as opposed to a slugged survivor with knockout, THAT'S where the time difference come in. Also thanks to the longer hook states survivors can unhook another survivor at their leisure, usually after they complete a generator, while slugged survivors have to be located quicker since bleed out meter does not reset upon being picked up.
"Hooking directly progresses your objective faster". No it doesn't, my objective is not to get 12 hooks, it's to get kills, and I can accomplish that through a variety of means including Mori, 3 hook states, or bleed out.
"it fully immobilizes someone instead of just slowing them down a lot" Again the value in slugging is not the slug itself, it's forcing them to be searched for via knockout.
"puts a sharper time pressure on survivors to come rescue" again no it doesn't, bleed out meter doesn't reset, meaning it's one timer cumulative that has to tick down, as opposed to two individual hook states with their own separate timers.
"As for hook denial strategies like flashlights and the like, we're on firmer ground because there is one issue there… but we're also downgraded "hooks aren't worth it" to "one specific perk has one specific interaction that is unfair". Those are
extremelydifferent situations. Actually getting the hook gives as much value by default as it ever has, it's just slightly harder in an unfair way in one specific scenario."Hooks still aren't worth it as the nerfs to slowdown perks and the continued length of hook states gives survivors more leniency on when to unhook while not providing enough slowdown to counter the pressure from slugging with knockout. No we are still not in agreement here, but I appreciate you acknowledging the Collison issue.
We're going to be at an impasse here, but the truth of the matter is killers didn't wake up one day deciding to slug, and slugging results in fewer bloodpoints and also higher risk because if the strat doesn't work. Clearly there had to be a significant shift over time that cause a bunch of killers who WERE using hook perks up until recently to suddenly all switch en masse.
Alright, in order:
1: Those extra 20 seconds are the opportunity for killer value because a survivor is on the hook during that time. I feel like a lot of people overlook that part, it's not 20 seconds of safety overall, because any more damage done to the team while someone's on the hook can very much add up. All it takes is for someone to be downed unexpectedly if the team's leaving someone on the hook, and those few extra generator seconds don't matter, they have to reset and the killer's not going to just go stand in a corner to let them do it unimpeded.
2: Okay, Knock Out will make searching for slugs harder. That doesn't really change that three survivors are occupied either way, since survivors don't teleport to the hook to get someone freed, they have to run to it, do the unhook, potentially heal depending on context, then run back. That's what occupies them, not looking for someone.
Also, take Knock Out out of the conversation and this point is even more moot. That's a perk being good, not a basic game function being weak.
3: Your objective is kills, yes, and hooks get there quicker. Even if those timers play out all the way every time, 140 seconds is a lot less than four minutes. You get more progress towards your objectives in bigger chunks when you hook; who knows how many times you might have to down someone before they bleed out.
4: That's Knock Out, then, not slugging.
5: I think you might've misunderstood this point, so I'll clarify. If survivors leave their teammates vulnerable to do gens, hook or slug, there's a time pressure to save them before they die. For slugging, it's four minutes. For hooking, it's 140 seconds, but realistically survivors are going to want to save within 70 seconds so their teammate isn't as vulnerable in their next chase. Hooks force survivors to act quicker than slugs do.
6: I respect that your position is still hooks not giving value, but you've yet to provide a compelling example except for the collision issue on pickup. That's why I'm saying it's a downgrade in argument, because it's the only thing that's actually held up to scrutiny.
The value of hooks is exactly the same as it's always been. The only things that have changed are a few extra, unbalanced strategies like camping and tunnelling getting weaker, three specific hook slowdown perks being nerfed in a way that maintains two of them still being the strongest perks in the game, and pickups being riskier because of a bug. There's been some back and forth, sure, but nothing that affects the core value of hooking.
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@Kwikwitted said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883898#Comment_3883898
The point was each of those incremental nerfs continued to slowly and surely eat away the edge of hooking over slugging, and now we've reached the axis point where slugging is showing to be the smarter, more efficient play mathematically. So while they don't seem to a major problem individual, their cumulative affect has finally become significantly noticeable.
No, hooking was nerfed for killers outside of even the perks. The 20 second increase on hook states for example. And other perks have enabled pickup saves to be even easier such as Background player. Flashlights can still be avoided with looking at walls but Background Player + Flashbang enables survivors to run up, drop a flashbang in the killer model, making it unavoidable, in addition to all the other anti-hook plays survivors have at their disposal.
Again, each of these individual changes did not shift the meta, it's that their cumulative effect has now shifted the meta.
Also your scenario doesn't work. One hook and chasing one survivor is only two engage and not doing generators. Meanwhile one slugged and one in chase requires another survivor to first locate the downed survivor, then get them up, which with knockout becomes more difficult, thus engaging three survivors for longer than hooking.
People have already done the math in the thread already, so I won't belabor the point.
Honestly I don't think my complaint is much lack of rewards for hooking, it's that those rewards can be short-circuited so easy by just one other survivor utilizing a flashlight, flashbang, sabotage, or body block. If I was able to do the 2v8 thing and put survivors on hooks instantly I think you'd find most killers would accept that.
As I just laid out, the 20 second increase on hook states at worst gives you an opportunity to generate more value, it's not just a negative scenario for you. This is also if survivors even choose to take that risk, which most won't- it just doesn't feature in most matches at all.
If you have one on hook and one in chase, that does occupy three survivors? Someone has to come off generators to save the person on hook, too, that's not unique to slugging. Leaving someone on the ground and hooking that person is the same in the sense that three survivors are occupied, but hooking is better because it directly progresses your objective faster, it fully immobilises someone instead of just slowing them down a lot, and it puts a sharper time pressure on survivors to come rescue.
As for hook denial strategies like flashlights and the like, we're on firmer ground because there is one issue there… but we're also downgraded "hooks aren't worth it" to "one specific perk has one specific interaction that is unfair". Those are extremely different situations. Actually getting the hook gives as much value by default as it ever has, it's just slightly harder in an unfair way in one specific scenario.
The most reasonable conclusion to draw there is "When we address aggressive slugging, also make sure to fix the collision issue with pickups".
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@Kwikwitted said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883883#Comment_3883883
If it was such a minor nerf then why was it needed in the first place? Thanks for making the point for me.
"Grim and Pain Res are still some of the strongest killer perks in the game"
Nope, that would be knockout and Mindbreaker now. Because the perks you mentioned have been nerfed so heavily and hooking is a time consuming gamble with the possibility of no payoff, and don't even get me started on terrible scourge hook placement. First pain res was reduced to 4 charges max, then it's once per survivor, now it's down from 25 to 20%. Again, survivors did this to themselves with incessant whining about slowdown.
"What if you never used that perk, or any hook-related slowdown perks? Hooking's been pretty good for you in that regard this whole time, and nothing's changed there."
Hooking has not only been nerfed for killers, it's been BUFFED for survivors.
Dead Hard, Deliverance, DS, not to mention the increased timer on hook states means less pressure on survivors to be altruistic, increasing further generator rush. Of course even if you get someone on death hook someone can bring shoulder the burden and negate the danger.
Anti-tunnel perks can be used offensively, meaning not only is hooking worse for killers, it's downright BENEFICIAL for survivors to get hooked at least once.
I mean, it wasn't needed. I said as much when it happened, it was an unnecessary change that has basically zero impact on the perk. I'm not proving your point at all, I'm bolstering mine, lol.
When you say hooking has "not only been nerfed for killers, it's been buffed for survivors", don't you mean just that it's been buffed for survviors? None of those things are things that makes hooking weaker, they're either just nice buffs for the survivor (Dead Hard, Deliverance), anti-tunnel (DS, Shoulder the Burden), or anti-camp (increased hook timer).
I'm not even saying those things are weak in their intended uses, they just don't affect the core strength of hooks. The only thing that would is Deliverance, but that's been in the game for years and hasn't been substantially changed in a long time- I think the last time it even got indirect changes was the basekit BT making safe unhooks more reliable? That was three years ago now, almost.
Even with the increased timer, the thing you're describing is opportunity for the killer. If they're stuck on gens, go get more pressure by getting another down. If you can do that - and of course it's an if, this is a game, victory isn't guaranteed - then you have the advantage, not the survivors.
Every time someone tries to talk about hooks being weaker, they never even acknowledge what it is hooks give you, it's always conversations about perks or basekit mechanics like the AFC system/increased hook timers.
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@Kwikwitted said:
OR (And just hear me out here).
We could make hooking WORTH something again, and maybe killers would start doing it again.
Survivors have no one to blame but themselves for the current meta. Whining about Pain Resonance, Pop Goes the Weasel, Grim Embrace, and Dead Man's Switch cause all those perks were nerfed into the ground. The result is the hassle of getting to a hook (let alone a scourge hook) when survivors can still flashlight save, flashbang save, body block, or sabotage hooks (seriously, make scourge hooks unable to be sabotaged at least) is essentially a negative expected value (-EV, a poker term) for the killer.
Also, so many second chance perks now actually require hooking, such as dead hard and of course DS has required it for years. Not to mention unhooked survivors with base kit borrowed time often use it offensively to body block killers.
The result is hooking has become pointless for killers in terms of pressure and slowdown. Slugging provides more of both.
That said, I think the amount of killers who are slugging and leaving to bleed out intentionally is actually pretty low as there's no benefit outside of spite. In most games I will hook the first downed survivor and slug everyone else until I've hooked that survivor three times (or everyone else does end up downed) then I will hook the rest as soon as possible.
You want slugging to end? All you have to do is MHGA (Make Hooking Great Again)
You can't seriously be contending that Grim Embrace was nerfed into the ground after getting a tiny two second nerf to one of its effects?
Grim and Pain Res are still some of the strongest killer perks in the game after their nerfs, and DMS was arguably improved after its rework. The only hook perk that really was significantly nerfed even remotely recently is Pop, and I don't really buy that a single perk getting weaker suddenly means that hooking isn't worth it anymore.
What if you never used that perk, or any hook-related slowdown perks? Hooking's been pretty good for you in that regard this whole time, and nothing's changed there.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
How about buff hooking for killers and nerf survivor hook perks
Which survivor hook perks?
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I think Legion's being undervalued here, their ability to provide for their teammate is pretty top notch.
Obviously it relies on having a good teammate, but the ability to rocket around the map injuring everyone relatively quickly is very potent if the other killer is able and willing to capitalise on it. Any stealth and most forms of mobility available in 2v8 benefit quite a lot from Legion ensuring everyone's a one-hit down.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
Many killer mains and (even many survivor mains) that understand WHY slugging happens have said that the solution isn't to punish killers for slugging (as a basekit unbreakable would do) but instead to give them a reason not to. Most of the perks that would encourage a killer to hook a survivor rather than just leaving them slugged have been nerfed. When you need to add pressure, just leaving a survivor slugged offers more pressure than taking the time to pick them up, risk a save, and carry them to a hook. THIS is what needs to be fixed.
I do not slug, because I do not find it fun. That doesn't mean I don't see where I'd be better off doing so overall.I've said this in a few other spots in this thread so I risk repeating myself, but I don't really see this as a particularly compelling point.
Most of the reasons people give for why hooking isn't compelling any more don't really bear out if you scrutinise them for a second. It's a handful of small annoyances mixed with things that have been true for years and haven't substantially changed in recent years.
The reason people slug is because it's easier than hooking. Part of that is just that most people aren't prepared for slugging, I've said before that anti-slug perks would demolish this gameplan if people brought them en masse, but even when considering that we have to remember that the stated value of slugging here is taking away interaction and back-and-forth counterplay for the safest, most risk-free gameplan possible- no saves, no sabotages, no chance of protection from lingering nearby or repeatedly targeting the same person.
Hooks are plenty rewarding. What needs to change is that slugging needs to be riskier without demanding every survivor player run specific perks every match to make it risky, and then a few small things changed here and there about hook-denial strategies since there's some issues there. Give the killer collision on pickup again, make Flashbang more obvious (though the audio bug does seem to be fixed now, at least), probably rework some perks like Boil Over and Power Struggle. Nothing huge, just that if you're already tackling a big problem you might as well tackle some related small ones.
That risk doesn't have to be Unbreakable, though. I'm sure there's other options to explore as well.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3883038#Comment_3883038
You have made several posts attempting to defend positions that are indefensible.
Additionally there are a plethora of reasons slugging is happening. The list that was given by @Reinami is not an opinion. It is a fact. These things do not exist as figments of the imagination and are in fact things killers have to deal with. You and others try to argue "it's not thaaaaaaat bad" and i'm sorry but you are wrong. It IS in fact that bad and all of those things together are the reason slugging will continue to become more popular.
Is slugging perfect? No. Do i think survivors could bleed out faster? Yeah, for sure. Do I think the instances where the killer is forced to keep multiple survivors on ground for minutes while they wait for the hooked survivor to hit the second stage is good? Hell no (when all survivors are either hooked or slugged the killer should be able to mori all the slugged survivors so everyone can move on to the next match). The general hatred for slugging is stupid though. It is a chase centric playstyle, with a far more natural focus on slowdown. The slowdown comes from knockout rather than forced gen regression perks.There is nothing at all wrong with the playstyle. The mechanics surrounding it could be improved but the game has been repeatedly pushed in this direction for long enough now, that one can say with near certainty that this is an intentional decision from the developers. When I play Killer I am DEFINITLY haveing more fun than before. Games are so much less stressful and I can focus more on the part of the game that is the most fun, the chases.
The list Reinami gave is absolutely an opinion, as are my posts. We're all sharing our opinions on this topic.
For the record, I do not hate slugging and I even want it to still be doable. This thread isn't even one to pitch an idea for how to fix slugging, though I did make one of those, I just wanted to point out that one of the common proposed solutions would be a bad idea that'd make the problem worse.
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I've seen it a handful of times, but ultimately no, I'm guessing when I see it people are mostly running it for the novelty.
It's a shame, because it's so close to being very good, it's just held back in a few spots to the point that it's not worth bringing.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882998#Comment_3882998
You have been a saint here in this thread trying to explain to people. Unfortunatly you can not show the blind how to see. As I said in the first post of this thread, there are many, many good sources of information on this subject but some people are not looking to understand why Slugging is happening more, nor are they willing to accept the reasons stated why it is happening. They are just looking to complain purely to complain. You can not reason with them. As you have well seen some people are just unwilling to listen even if spoon fed all the answers. It is a waste of time. I gave up in this thread for that reason. The problem is, time and time again the devs see fit to give ear to these types of people. Mindless complaining should not be rewarded.
I feel I've made it quite clear why slugging's happening in my posts here, I've brought it up a few times.
It seems to me that you and I disagree on why slugging is happening, which really isn't the same thing as one of us not looking to understand it.
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@CLHL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882906#Comment_3882906
There are 3 other players, you know. They could move their asses and pick their mate up, for example.
And as I said, my proposal is just an option. You can wait on the floor to be rescued or be sent to hook if waiting for help takes too long or if everyone is already on the floor, so there is no more toxic bleeding out. In my book, a fairer solution than being knocked down and just getting up on your own.
The ability to coordinate that kind of pickup and confirm the killer isn't nearby to loop back around and make the situation even worse for the team is very difficult for solo queue, I'd say some kind of basekit thing to alleviate it would be appropriate.
And, sure, it would make the annoying situation very slightly less annoying because it wouldn't take as long. It'd also make that annoying situation more common because the killer would be rewarded more for it than they are now.
As I said at the top of the thread, this isn't really a post specifically about basekit Unbreakable being the only solution, there are other things to look at. Whatever we look at, though, it has to be a negative situation for killer or it'll actually make slugging worse.
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@CLHL said:
And that's why my proposal is to send the survivor to a hook if they wish. But aparently that is an unjustified reward, while standing again by the grace of god is not.
I mean… yeah, it is?
If the survivor goes to a hook, the killer doesn't have to spend any time hooking them but still gets the benefits of having them on a hook. Maybe that system wouldn't activate perks, so that's a small thing, but it's still a situation that's better for the killer than them still being on the ground.
If you knew that you could ignore someone on the ground completely and the only thing they can do about it is send themselves to a hook, doesn't that make slugging more attractive to you?
Now imagine that if you left them on the ground, something negative would happen after long enough. Wouldn't that push you not to leave people on the ground for longer than absolutely necessary?
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@CLHL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882645#Comment_3882645
Well, why shouldn't they be rewarded for downing survivors? Furthermore, why should the downed survivors get a free pick-up after their missplay? Maybe I'm missing something.
We're not talking about a reward just for downing survivors, we're talking about a reward for leaving that survivor on the ground for an extended period of time.
If we reward players for doing that, then players are going to do that more, which means the aggressive slugging people are complaining about will get worse.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882847#Comment_3882847
At this point, saying DS is not a "hook perk" there's no point in having a discussion at because you just live in a different reality. I suggest watching that video and try and have a little empathy here for killer players. Really try, go watch some games from killer streamers, go play killer for a while and really see how it feels. Because without that empathy there really isn't any point in continuing this discussion.
All i'll say at this point is, i hope you consume a little bit of content, try playing killer and just have a little empathy for your fellow player and good luck to you.
I do play killer. That's the perspective all of this is coming from.
As a quick correction, I said DS is not JUST a hook perk. It's a perk that you can hook and guarantee you'll never see because it actually activates on something else that includes hooking.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882823#Comment_3882823
The fact that you mention furtive chase as a perk shows me exactly what i need to know. That perk is horrible. But yes, pop, pain res, grim embrace, dead mans switch, ruin is still horrible, surge is still bad. And so on. But lets run through the responses here.
- Basekit BT, Anti face camp, yes they are addressing "unfun gameplay" but they still factor in regardless of whether you like it or not.
- The list is much larger than you realize, wouldn't i be a fool to not attempt to counter something i will see in nearly every single game? But i'll list them off from the video
- The perks themselves
- Aftercare
- Babysitter
- Background player
- Bloodrush
- Boil Over
- Borrowed time
- Deliverance
- Breakout
- Cameraderie
- Dead hard
- Decisive Strike
- Deliverance
- Fast track
- Flashbang
- Flip flop
- Kindred
- No one left behind
- Off the record
- Power struggle
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- SAboteur
- Second wind
- Shoulder the burden
- Slippery meat
- We'll make it
- Wicked
- Then if you look at the ones you see every few games
- Background player
- Boil over
- Deliverance
- Flipflop
- Powerstruggle
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- We'll make it
- Then there is the pure meta ones you see in literally every single game
- Dead hard
- Decisive Strike
- Flashbang
- Off the reocord
- Shoulder the Burden
- The perks themselves
- Many perks were nerfed
- Pop
- Pain res
- Grim Embrace
- Dead man's Switch
- The fact that you mention furtive chase just shows exactly what i'm talking about, you obviously don't play killer that much if you are mentioning a horrible perk like that and saying "look it got buffed"
- It is not a placebo, good survivor teams will wait until the last possible second to save, giving them a solid 20 seconds extra per survivor for a total of 80 extra seconds, which is nearly a full gen.
- The anti slug perks are weaker
- Unbreakable is comparable to DS, but is actually weaker, because you can immediately be downed afterwards and it does nothing, DS stuns you and gives the survivor distance and time, but again, one time use and it is done.
- The only other one worth anything is WGLF, but WGLF is not as good as you think, it gives endurance sure, but the point of slugging isn't to camp the slug, you use it for pressure, you leave the slugged guy alone. And the extra healing time isn't relevant either because the survivor is recovering, they already are likely at 95% recovered anyway, so it just turns your 2 second pickup time to 1 second, not that big of a deal.
- None of the other "anti-slug" perks are really worth it.
- It is an issue, have you watched a comp game recently? The game is balanced around a chase with a survivor lasting 45 seconds, most don't know this but the devs have stated it. But that is the chase time, you still have:
- Finding the survivor probably takes ~10 seconds
- Chasing the survivor takes 45 seconds
- Picking up the survivor and hooking them takes 20 seconds
- Finding the next survivor takes ~10 seconds
- For a total of 10 + 45 + 20 + 10 = 85 seconds. There goes 2-3 gens in your first chase. And then your second one is another gen, and then your 3rd is the last gen. Congrats, you have 3 hooks.
- Flashlight saves are not counterable 99% of the time because the survivors who are playing for flashlight saves KNOW they should go down in a spot where the killer can't face a wall, sure you could spend a few seconds looking around for a survivor going for a save, but, oh look, you just spend another 10-15 seconds now looking around for someone who may or may not be there, congrats, you just lost 3 gens again.
- See above around time spent
- Flashbangs are bugged right now and 100% uncounterable because even if you face a wall they can drop the flashbang inside the killer model and it will still blind them, there is no excuse here.
- See the above perks, all it takes is a single sabo, and then a single body block and the survivor wiggles off and your 45 second chase just meant nothing. The amount of effort you spend downing that survivor is greater than the effort spent saving them. Same for flashbangs, flashlights and pallet saves.
- Same as above
- Hooking only gives "time pressure" if you think about hook states, but again it takes a survivor the same amount of time to go pick a survivor up from the ground, that it does to unhook them. And at minimum they are probably going to take a solid 30 seconds to do that. And with a 4 minute bleed out timer, that means at most you are downing them 8 times. That's only if they are close by for the save, and if they are, slugging is stronger when survivors group up. On top of that, if you slug you aren't spending the 20 seconds to hook the survivor, so you can immediately start pressuring another survivor whereas the 20 seconds gives the other survivors 60 seconds of gen progress
- 20 seconds is nearly minimum and most people really don't think about this.
- 2.7 wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- 10 seconds to walk to a hook (calculated based on average distance between hooks, sometimes it is less, sometimes more, but average is 10 seconds)
- 1.5 second hooking animation
- 2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 = 17.2 seconds
- And this is assuming you pick them up literally immediately, which, as we just discussed, you can't do because you need to look out for someone coming to save. So in most games you are probably looking at around 25-30 seconds when you know flashlights are in play, or the survivor goes down under a pallet.
- It is subjective, but it does matter, and is something to look at.
I strongly suggest you watch the video, it is solid and talks literally about these things and even about the empathy. It recognizes that survivors don't like being slugged, but also points out that we need to look at WHY this is happening, and not just bandaid it.
Okay, I'm gonna tackle the big list of perks last, since I think it's best to get some of my other points out of the way first. I'm also going to keep a numbered list but the list won't necessarily correlate one to one with the order of your points, just to ensure nobody's confused here.
1: So, point one is tied to your point one: It's not about whether or not I "like" the basekit BT or the AFC system, nor whether they exist to counter unfun gameplay or not. The point is that they do not activate JUST from hooking. They activate (or are relevant, in the case of BT) for their own distinct situations that just involve the hook.
If you hook someone, but you're across the map when they're unhooked because you left straight away to get into another chase, then neither of these systems activate. It's not that these systems make hooking weaker, it's that they make tunnelling and camping respectively weaker. You don't actually have to do those things just because you decided to engage with the basic mechanic of hooking people so they genuinely do not count when it comes to talking about hooking being weak and slugging being necessary.
2: When I talk about hook perks being buffed, the point isn't really how good they are. Furtive Chase is like… fine? It has some pretty viable builds, it's pretty middle of the road as far as strength goes, but that isn't the point- the point is that the narrative of hook perks only ever being nerfed into the ground doesn't really bear out, and also that hook perks aren't required for hooks to give value.
Pain Res, Grim Embrace, and DMS are all still very strong, not even just perfectly good. The nerf that Grim Embrace got in particular was so minuscule that I legitimately forgot it happened. Sure, yes, in a vacuum, these perks did in fact get negative changes… that did not significantly move the needle on how good they are. Hell, DMS is arguably quite a bit better depending on how you use it because that wasn't a nerf, it was a sidegrade/rework, that's why I didn't initially include it.
Surge and Ruin aren't hook perks.
3: I want to talk about the hook timer for a second here, next. I always find it baffling that people are so quick to say that teams will leave people on the hook for as long as possible to maximise generator repair as a reason that the hook timer hurts the killer, because… what are you doing during that time?
If you get a down before they try to leave their gen, then you're pushing the team onto the back foot and forcing them to reset over and over, because multiple people are threatened at once. It's kind of the best situation you can be in as killer because there's basically no downtime between cycles of occupying three survivors at once.
4: Leading on from the last point, I also want to point out that your calculation about losing generators misses something extremely vital, which is that even if you lose three gens in the first chase, getting a hook slows down the remaining two because not everyone can be on gens if you're occupying one while another is on the hook and a third has to go save.
Obviously, you can have bad matches where you struggle to get work done, that's fairly normal in an online game. In general, though, gens only fly when survivors aren't occupied, and hooks are the best way of occupying them. I'd even support some changes that help out a killer's early game if it's done right, but that's a little outside the scope of this conversation- that's not exactly changed recently, it's always been how the game is for killers. It has no bearing on how good hooks are right now in the current state of the game.
5: Alright, let's look at that list of perks.
So, right off the bat, we're still including perks here that aren't just hook related. Babysitter, Blood Rush, Borrowed Time, Camaraderie, Decisive Strike, Reassurance and Shoulder the Burden do not belong on this list, they do not activate just from the hook- if you can hook someone, play completely normally, and never see the perk, it's just bloating out this list without actually being relevant to the conversation.
Some of these perks are also stretching extremely hard. I think the most egregious example is Aftercare- not only is that perk not exactly frightening for the killer, but you also counter that perk by hooking the user. That perk could not have that downside and still be completely fine from the killer perspective, mind you, but in the current state of the game, it's particularly out of place in this conversation.
The fact remains that the vast majority of these aren't things the killer needs to try and avoid. If the survivor has, I don't know, Kindred, Resurgence, Boil Over (outside of unhookable builds, at least) and Wicked… who cares? Sure, those effects are pretty good, I even run some of those perks myself when I play survivor, but I can't say I've had many games where I've looked at the perks in the end screen and thought "Damn, I lost that match because they had Kindred".
I do also feel the need to point out, these things aren't really new. There's a couple new ones, StB and the new Blood Rush effect happened fairly recently, but by and large most of these things have been in the game in some form for years. There's been no huge shift that would make all of these things substantially more problematic now than they would've been before, so the idea that hooking isn't worth it still doesn't make any sense to me.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882792#Comment_3882792
I just explained it to you. There is a whole video explaining it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aInEGwk2TtE
But the general gist is:
- Patch after patch of buffing basekit things for survivors around being hooked/unhooked
- Having dozens of meta perks that are related to survivors getting hooked/unhooked
- Having killer perks around hooking being nerfed patch after patch
- Basekit timer increase to hooks being 70 seconds
- The fact that there are farm more anti-tunnel/hook based perks than there are anti-slugging perks. And the anti-slugging ones aren't that good
- Patch after patch of not addressing the speed of generators in relation to how long it takes to chase survivors
- Having to worry about flashlight saves
- Having to worry about pallet saves
- Having to worry about flashbang
- which is bugged right now BTW to be uncounterable
- Having to worry about sabotage
- Having to worry about body blocks
- You get the same generator pressure leaving them on the ground that you do hooking them
- The fact that it takes 20 seconds to hook a survivor
- Its more fun as a killer because you get constant chases.
Not gonna watch a video, sorry, but I'll look at that list for sure. Going point by point-
1: So, this is the big one that I always take issue with. There's very little in the game that the devs have buffed which takes effect JUST from hooking/unhooking. You specify basekit here, which means there's nothing that affects the killer without them playing into it- everything that does take effect JUST from hooking is a perk.
2: See the first point, again. How many of them ACTUALLY revolve around hooking/unhooking on its own, and how many of them ALSO require the killer to try and chase the person who was just unhooked, or stick around the hook to force stage progression? The ones that are left after that point are also hardly so overwhelmingly powerful you need to avoid them at all costs. Something like, say, Resurgence is a damn good perk, but you as a killer don't need to be afraid of it.
3: When it comes to killer perks, I'm a little more sympathetic, but I am also kinda forced to ask… which ones? Basically just Pop and Pain Res, right? Other hook-related perks have even been buffed, stuff like Furtive Chase- albeit that was a while ago now. It's only two hook related killer perks that were nerfed, one of them is still the strongest killer perk in the game by a wide margin, and neither of them are necessary for the default value you get out of hooking someone.
4: The hook timer increase is a placebo. It's not affecting your ability to generate pressure after a hook, and if it is affecting that, it's affecting it positively because it could push survivors to stick on their gens for longer. All it takes is for you to get an unexpectedly early down and you're coming out ahead in that exchange, not them.
5: On this one, we will have a subjective disagreement, I think. In my opinion, the anti-slug perks are way more powerful at their job than the anti-tunnel perks, they just require more teamwork and aren't as popular. Not that it matters- just don't tunnel and there are in fact zero anti-tunnel perks actually affecting you outside of the occasional bodyblock.
6: Generator speeds in relation to catching survivors isn't really that big of an issue right now, and it's strange to bring that up in relation to hooking not being worth it- getting a hook is how you slow down the generators, by forcing survivor reactions.
7: Flashlight saves are counterable 99.9% of the time.
8: Pallet saves can be a little more dangerous, but all you need to do is push whoever's loitering far enough away and they can't get back in time to get the save. Hardly reason enough on its own to avoid hooking altogether even if it's actually a present risk.
9: Like the last point, flashbangs can be kind of annoying, especially when they're bugged (though that does seem to be fixed now), but once you're hit once you know to expect it and the risk lessens severely.
10 & 11: There are more than enough hooks for a sabotage or bodyblock to not actually impede you that much nine times out of ten, but also, you can just drop that survivor when it becomes apparent you can't hook them. That's a massively different situation than hooking itself being weak.
12: Slugging being as good as hooking doesn't mean hooking is weak. I do disagree on this point, though, hooking gives a sharper time pressure, fully immobilises the survivor, and directly progresses your objective much quicker as a healthy survivor on deathhook is a lot more vulnerable than a healthy survivor on the last minute of their bleedout timer, so it is better than slugging even disregarding perks.
13: Twenty seconds is a pretty severe estimate, there are plenty of times it takes me about five. Besides, you make up for that with the extra pressure you get from the hook.
14: Subjective point and doesn't mean anything about the strength of hooking even if it were objective.
We've only got a few things on this list that are even worth talking about, and their impact on the strength of hooking is both pretty low and hasn't substantially changed for pretty much the game's whole lifespan. Some stuff like sabotaging even got weaker over recent years.
I can sympathise with some things on this list being annoying to deal with, especially if you get people trying it back to back, but they aren't actually balance related. That's just subjectively annoying game experiences. If slugging were made riskier, you wouldn't actually be forced into a bad situation, you'd just be going back to the thing that's been perfectly good this whole time.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882767#Comment_3882767
But the point is that hooking is NOT rewarding. The point is that slugging is more effective because hooking is so weak.
Well, that raises the question, what exactly makes hooking weak?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882758#Comment_3882758
Please, have empathy and understand WHY this is happening and stop looking to punish people.
I just said, I do know why this is happening.
I'm not actually trying to punish people, here. I just know there's no way of fixing this without a deterrent towards aggressively slugging, because anything that pushes the game towards the killer's win condition after heavy slugging is going to encourage it. That's the opposite of fixing the problem.
The fact of the matter is, the comments about survivors being buffed unbelievably when you hook them are just overblown. Things can be done to improve the killer experience overall, of course, and even bodyblocking could potentially be addressed sometime, but we can't assume that because some players are kinda annoyed by bodyblocking that we should actually make hooking itself more rewarding than it already is.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882742#Comment_3882742
Again, you can FORCE the killer to be hit by these things. And that is the problem, you cannot just say "don't tunnel".
At the same time, i agree with you, and i don't think "don't tunnel" should be a perk thing, they basekit should not just "punish" tunneling, but make it completely impossible from a gameplay perspective.
But they also need to address the reason that killers are not hooking. Please, have a little empathy for the other side and try and understand. Don't just think "path of least resistance" and "killers bad" really try to understand WHY killers are not hooking.
Endurance can be forced, not the other things. Only the basekit BT and OTR can be leveraged this way, and even then only in scenarios where the killer's actually near the hook, which isn't every time.
So, we have a very short list of things that only sometimes have to be dealt with without you playing into them, that are often trivially easy to deal with anyway, and don't affect the basic value you'd get from having hooked that person to begin with.
Killers aren't hooking because they're currently getting more value from slugging. They're currently getting more value from slugging because fewer people expect it, so they aren't prepared to deal with it, and a lot of the preparation they'd do revolves around specific perks, which isn't ideal from a gameplay perspective.
If slugging were made riskier, most killers who are currently slugging would just go back to hooking, because hooking's completely fine at the moment overall.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882730#Comment_3882730
You are completely wrong. I have seen instances every day where these perks are being abused. I can absolutly assure you they are not "anti tunnel" perks. They are Anti pressure perks. They punish killers unilaterally reguardless of what they do. This is espically egregious with perks like DS and OTR.
The Endurance you get from the basekit BT and from OTR can be weaponised via bodyblocking, that's it. The rest are entirely avoidable by just ignoring the survivor on the hook/who just got unhooked.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882730#Comment_3882730
DS can literally be forced. Just watch any streamer, most of the time when they get hit by DS they are literally not tunneling. You often get hit by DS more while not tunneling than you do by tunneling.
Lets look at it this way, survivors tend not to like the perk "No one escapes death" because it isn't earned, the killer "earns it" by losing, they are rewarded for doing badly in a way right?
Why is it that survivors get:
- DS
- Basekit BT
- DH
- Unbreakable
- OTR
- Deliverance
- Etc
All for getting hooked? Those things are things the survivors "earned" by "losing" they got caught. That is how killers feel about so many survivor perks and basekit mechanics. They all feel like NOED to us.
There is no way to force a pickup. What typically happens is that survivors are bodyblocking, which can be forced, and the killer decides to pick them up either because it's the path of least resistance (or would be without DS) or because they're just kinda not thinking that hard about it. That's not the same as DS being forced, if you're aware of what survivors who play like this are banking on you can avoid it 100% of the time.
As for why survivors get those things, let's actually adjust that real quick to take Deliverance and Dead Hard off the list. Survivors aren't just given those, Deliverance is earned via getting a safe unhook and Dead Hard requires you to actually time it right. So, we're actually looking at DS, basekit BT, Unbreakable, and OTR.
DS, basekit BT, and OTR exist because without them there'd be a glaring flaw in the game's balance: if the killer just hits you as soon as your feet touch the ground, you're back on the hook with no input on your end. That's bad for balance, bad for the experience, and cuts out a huge swath of the game's, y'know, gameplay.
Unbreakable exists to answer the killer's gameplay as well, albeit in a less extreme way. Leaving survivors on the ground is sometimes a good idea, so survivors can spend a perk slot to protect against that very specific decision.
None of these are a reward for "losing", or just for getting caught/downed. They're answers to specific killer choices outside of the basic interaction of being downed and hooked, and they very crucially do not affect the basic value of downing and hooking survivors- except for Unbreakable, to be fair. None of the hook related ones affect the basic value you get from hooking someone, though.
As for them feeling like NOED, I mean, fine? NOED's fine.