jesterkind
jesterkind
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Lethal Pursuer | BBQ (or other info perk of choice) | Furtive Chase | Nemesis
The idea's simple. You either chase the obsession first or create one with a pallet stun via Nemesis, hook them to get Haste and Undetectable from Furtive Chase, that you then use to sneak up on someone you see with BBQ (or whatever info you use, basically just have somewhere to go so you don't waste FC duration), get a hook there.
When the obsession's unhooked, the rescuer becomes the obsession because of Furtive Chase and becomes Oblivious + has their aura revealed because of Nemesis, so you can sneak up on them too, ideally.
I've had most success with this on killers who are very threatening up close, so an instadown killer like Bubba or someone who keeps everyone injured like Plague or Legion (who can even use Susie's Mixtape to get their power while stealthy if you so choose).
Not the strongest around, but good for having some fun.
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Sure, if I weren't having fun then I wouldn't be playing.
In fact, I'm actually playing more survivor lately than killer. Solo queue's really improved over the years- exempting the unfixable issues like the occasional braindead teammates, a lot of issues are lessened overall. The action HUD especially finally freed up the perk slot that was locked in to Kindred for a long while.
Of course, there's still stuff to fix, and some wider survivor issues that affect both solo queue and SWF especially need addressing. Just that solo queue specific stuff doesn't feel as bad anymore.
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@UndeddJester said:
I'd say probably wouldn't be busted no... as long as the efficiency is a reasonable number.
The changes for healing over the years are to try and ensure that survivors are typically better off healing each other altruistically instead of themselves, which makes sense for a game where you're trying to really enforce the asym idea of working together but having this measured trade off about trying to save yourself.
The immediate concern is combining this with Botany Knowledge and Self Care, since you have a skillset that circumvents this core design principle...
However this isn't particularly strong, it's about the same value as just taking the brown add-on charges on a medkit anyway, and altruistic healing with things like We'll Make It are far more appealing.
I think this is probably the most well measured buff you could give Self-Care.
Another thing to consider with the Botany Knowledge pairing is that you're giving up a lot of your loadout just to have relatively speedy heals - item, presumably both addon slots for the extra heal, and two of your four perk slots. I think it hits a healthy intersection of not being too much better than the alternatives, but also being proportionally rewarding for how much you're investing into it.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
Having killer “skill” be based on hooks rather than kills would be a healthy change.
On the survivor side, it’s absolutely insane that “skill” is still based on escapes only and nothing else. There needs to be some way of rewarding players for playing well even when they have useless teammates and don’t escape because of it.
The specific skill being measured is your skill at winning the game consistently, so it makes sense to base it on the win condition and not the steps up to the win condition.
Solo queue should probably have some specific MMR adjustments, but I'm not sure exactly what that'd look like. Maybe tighter matching? Unsure.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898707#Comment_3898707
So when I wrote my original comment, I said that we could take it up to 50% again and it wouldn't be busted, especially if it also retained the 33% penalty for self-healing. I appreciate this wasn't worded the best, but it effectively then wouldn't be 50% as it'd be 50% speed reduced again by 33 (not 27%, that'd be a nerf, but I don't think it'd be much different from current live). When I wrote it I completely forgot Strength in Shadows existed as an example that that probably wouldn't be the case, but I figured it's worth mentioning because 6.1.0 is proof that they have no issues gutting an already mid perk if it's usage rate is high enough.
But I stand by my point, even if it's just at 50% healing speed, meaning it takes 32 seconds to heal yourself, that still won't be busted OP. It'll make it a good perk again, absolutely, but good doesn't quite cut it in the no-heal full-gens DH/UB/WGLF/SB/OTR meta. Why would you bring a perk to heal yourself when you don't usually need to do so more than once or twice per game & you're probably getting tunneled anyway so a syringe would give you more value (hell, second wind would give more value if you played it right). I genuinely do not see a world where 32 second self-heals break the game, especially not in its current state, when they didn't break the game in 2022 and didn't break the game in 2018.
I'm just confused about why there'd also be a 33% penalty for self-healing, that's not something that current Self-Care has. That's just the penalty for healing yourself with a medkit.
Broadly I agree that 32 second self heals (or realistically whatever the number would be with Botany) wouldn't be broken, I just think it'd be more potentially interesting to go in another route to differentiate Self-Care from Strength in Shadows. Making it more of a medkit buffing perk would be neat, if it's done carefully.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898547#Comment_3898547
It wasn't OP when it was 50% before the medkit nerfs when healing became 16 seconds, it definitely won't be OP if it's the new 24 second timer (meaning self-care takes 48 seconds to heal yourself), and it hasn't been OP since healing times went from 12s → 16s back in patch 2.3.0 - the perk has been mid since October 2018 and the 6.1.0 nerfs served to kill it outright.
Like don't get me wrong, self-care used to be the best perk in the game, bar none except maybe Decisive Strike. It has not held that crown for a long time because it wasn't the 50% that was busted, it was the 12s heals.
Wait, I think I'm missing something - why would medkits having a debuff matter for how long Self Care takes to heal you?
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The game's win conditions are usually enough for me; kill at least three survivors if I'm on killer, or escape if I'm on survivor.
I don't usually tie my satisfaction in a match to whether I won or lost, though. Doing archive challenges, successfully getting value from a gimmick build, or even just getting one kill against a really good team can be enough for me to be satisfied with the match even if I lost.
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@LockerLurk said:
Yes. The heal meta unfairly gutted some Killers.
Next question.Well, let's be reasonable for a moment- giving Self-Care medkit efficiency bonuses won't bring back old self healing on its own, that's hardly the only thing that changed.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
1 problem would be the teammate recieving the buff, has no idea what they've been buffed with. The only one aware of which number was rolled is the person using the perk. The reason the current version works is everyone just associates the perk with skill check bonuses
It would be some extra work, but I don't think it'd be impossible to have it flash up in the little perk-icon notification you get in the bottom right when a perk's affecting you.
Conveying which buff it is to people who don't know which number is which would probably be harder, but as with many things, that'd be solved by being able to see your teammate's perks mid-match, haha.
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Shame they're not going through the the tunnel exit speed, that felt really nice. Everything else seems fine enough, I think?
@Madnesseffect said:
They just nerfed Xenomorph without giving him any buffs.
Based on how this is written, we'd still be getting the Killer Instinct range buff and some increase to how long it takes to get knocked out of crawler mode, on top of the new buff to successful attack cooldown. In fact, isn't the only nerf still sticking around that tail attack is going to be slightly slower (but not as slow as the PTB)?
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I don't really think that's accurate, I think you have to be looking at things from a very specific lens in order for that to be the case.
All Things Wicked and End Transmission were broadly well received, even if a handful of things weren't right balance wise. There are generally a good number of people who like Doomed Course conceptually too, even if Houndmaster is buggy as hell.
The perks are also pretty good overall- killer less so, but even including licenses, of the past eight survivor releases only one hasn't had at least one genuinely good, worthwhile perk associated with them. Killer has slightly weaker offerings but still pretty okay.
Hell, even the maps haven't actually been that bad. Toba Landing had a rough start but is a pretty okay map now, Greenville Square is surprisingly decent, and while it wasn't strictly part of Doomed Course, the new Ormond map is pretty good too.
Some of the more recent licenses might've eclipsed the original stuff in popularity overall, but outside of two specific outliers, the original chapters over the past few years have been pretty decent.
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@OneGoodBoyDemo said:
if i remember correctly before it had 20% efficiency in medkits right?
I don't care if they bring it back but it still wouldn't be very useful.
The number could definitely be increased. I was contemplating it potentially having a high enough number to cancel out Botany Knowledge if you ran both at once, that could be a viable use case.
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DBD has a tendency to pull from early incarnations of the licenses it gets - the first movie in a franchise for stuff like Halloween, earlier games for RE (the first time) - so I'd suggest it'd probably be something like The Master from season one. Slight possibility they pull from the movie and not the show, but I somewhat doubt that, they'd go for the more recognisable version.
They'd probably want Angel and Spike to be survivor cosmetics, lol. I'd def play Spike as a survivor, myself.
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Skull Merchant was changed because of consistent community complaints, so while there wasn't a good reason to gut her, there was a clear and obvious one.
Xenomorph changes were very clearly not meant to be gutting the killer and were intended to improve it, hence all the buffs thrown in there too.
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To be honest, I'm not sure I see whatever it is that other people are seeing in the heat changes, after playing a couple matches.
It's only the heat dissipation, it's not as though they changed the power cooldown or anything. If you aren't knocked out of your power, then winning that chase removes all your heat buildup, and if you are knocked out of your power then it's the exact same as live, so… doesn't this only affect you in situations where you had to drop chase on someone after building up heat?
I'm not saying it's a perfect change, there's stuff I'd tweak about it if I had final say, I just don't understand how this is somehow going to gut the Xenomorph when it isn't that directly impactful in most scenarios. It's not just a flat cooldown you have to eat no matter what or anything.
I do agree the burn overlay is kinda annoying and distracting when it's lingering on the screen, though. That's worth changing.
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This and flashbangs themselves getting an adjustment to stop them blinding you while you're facing away, too.
If those bug fixes work out as intended, flashbang squads are gonna be much weaker. Very nice changes.
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A couple other people have mentioned this already, but I truly think his ability to specifically cross the map isn't really what's relevant here. What's relevant is how quickly he can traverse 32 metres to threaten you.
He doesn't need to get from one side of the map to the other that quickly, he just needs to be able to get to you quickly enough that there's very little gap between hearing the faint terror radius and him lunging out of nowhere to grab you. Somewhat like Nurse, but to a less insane degree, Wesker has very potent short-range burst mobility, but his power doesn't really allow for more extended map traversal the way a Hillbilly or even to a smaller degree Blight might be able to get.
It's about how much time you have to react if he's beelining for you, not map traversal.
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I don't think the pink syringe is particularly problematic, personally. It might have its place in a few obnoxious builds, but by and large since its indirect nerf in 6.7.0 I think it's pretty fair. Explicitly one use, consumes the entire medkit to reduce synergies, has a tell the killer could notice if they're on the ball, and can be interrupted. It's strong, but as tools go, I think fairly reasonable.
The purple syringe is much more problematic in my opinion. Short of very specific setups on very specific killers, that syringe effectively boils down to "this survivor has immunity for 5 seconds". You counter the Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe by hitting the survivor; the Styptic Agent forces you not to hit them.
Granted, it is only 5 seconds, so I don't think it's overwhelmingly busted. I just think it has a much more questionable design than its counterpart. I don't think either syringe is problematic enough to warrant action, but if and when medkits are revisited to hopefully address them scaling in a particularly boring manner, there can be some changes made to the Styptic Agent at the same time.
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Adrenaline's still one of the top three perks in the game, the nerfs didn't really move the needle on its core strengths. It did lose the stupidly unfair "heal on hook" possibility, and that was a bit of a knock overall, but the core strengths of Adrenaline have always been the instant heal and speed boost which are both preserved.
It's in a pretty good spot now. Still one of the best survivor perks there is in the game, but no part of it is really unfair anymore.
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@Cataca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893159#Comment_3893159
Fire up, brutal strength, knockout this build is gonna catch up on Survs so fast
Put Game Afoot in there for Haste after breaking a pallet and you're really going to rush down survivors, haha.
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@redhat74 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893589#Comment_3893589
Thanks for the reply but those are words nothing logical.
The nerf is to another tactic away from hooks, reducing tactics for killers into a one simple use hooks.
The more helpful is a new perk with the same name which is in no way a different tactic/playstyleIt's very strange how hard the discourse in this community has shifted towards hooks not being the default, main interaction with the game. It's like if people started clamouring to avoid needing to chase survivors, or something.
"Hooking" is not a tactic or a playstyle, it's just one of the core interactions of the video game, same as chasing. There are plenty of tactics and playstyles that surround hooking, and slugging also doesn't require Knock Out to be done so it's still an option.
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Generally speaking, if the reason for wanting a feature is to lobby dodge more frequently, that feature should not be implemented.
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@redhat74 said:
and I join as further killers are nerfed…….
I promise you, this is not a nerf to any killer directly. This new proposed effect will in fact be more helpful to some killers.
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@Sunflower_Mage said:
I doubt this will become the norm, but survivors could start running Plot Twist as a way to force the surrender option, maybe with No Mither but I doubt everyone would do that. As lets say the survivors are all injured because of say, Legion, then they all Plot Twist and surrender.
Not a cause for concern just something to think about.The dev update clarifies that Plot Twist won't activate the surrender option, ftr.
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@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893315#Comment_3893315
yeah but you're still saying that the killer should be punished for doing good. just because tunneling exists, doesnt mean a perk should be nerf'd
To be clear, just to clarify, I am defending this idea being worth talking about rather than saying it absolutely should happen myself. I am fairly in favour of the idea, but I'm not saying there's no conversation to be had about it.
But, to that idea, it's not really actively a punishment if you know that's how the perk works ahead of time. When you bring hexes, you know that they deactivate when a specific condition is met, and you accept that when you bring them. It'd be the same with Grim Embrace or specific other slowdown perks - you know they deactivate when a specific condition is met, and you play around that.
If it happened randomly, or to every perk that you brought, sure, that'd be a punishment. If it's a baked-in part of a handful of specific perks, that's just how those perks work at that point, same as hexes or survivor perks like OTR/DS or Deliverance; they do their job then they deactivate.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893315#Comment_3893315
I'm just not a fan of the orchestrated gameplay loop that's being pushed here. I really don't like the speed up/slowdown mechanic 2v8 had with the gens. That cannot come into 1v4, or it will kill this game. What you're suggesting is basically the same. "The killer's playing too well, thus the survivors need a comeback mechanic."
And this is all based on the idea that the survivors need handouts because the killer or their stuff is super oppressive. I don't think slowdown is oppressive, especially not with the perks we have now, in the state that they're in. They shave seconds off a gen. A good survivor can loop the killer for like a minute; they often don't, and it's still enough. The math of the game has been done a hundred times, and every time, the survivors do their objective faster than the killer can do his, giving them an automatic win. It doesn't always happen, but that's due to human error. Pain Res and Grim would not be overwhelming, 3v1 or not, against good survivors. You must take them into account, because the human error I mentioned? They possess little of it.
This is not a reasonable ask. This is ridiculous, especially now. It's saying, "Well, slugging is dead. Now let's go back to disincentivizing hooks. Let's go over every ability and idiosyncrasy killers have and find a way to 'fix' it, to our advantage."
At the very least, all this has reminded me of Grim's existence. Good thing, too. It could be the perfect 4th perk I've been looking for in my Pain Res/No Way Out/Remember Me build. Cheers to that.
It's not a comeback mechanic, and it's not about playing too well.
It's a question of "if players have these tools available in this scenario, it would be unbalanced". That's not a comeback mechanic for survivors because they don't get anything, and it's not about playing too well in general because if you're actually playing well instead of tunnelling someone out straight away, you shouldn't need to have the strongest slowdown tools available to you at that point. Lesser/differing perks should help you close the match out perfectly fine.
Or maybe not! A genuine part of the conversation would be whether killers who are actually playing well would be unfairly punished with this idea. It's worth a discussion overall, for sure. You just can't start that conversation from the perspective of not acknowledging how much of a massive advantage it is to both have someone dead early and have continued access to meaningful gen slowdown perks.
Good survivors aren't infallible robots, you don't need every shortcut in the book on top of strong perks just to stand a chance. If you do, maybe they're just better players than you, it's possible.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893291#Comment_3893291
It's slowdown. It's supposed to work when conditions are met, and they're never light conditions (contrary to what the devs said when nerfing Pain Res. "Simply" hooking a survivor.). And I thought we were past this, because of the Ruin change. Nobody likes playing killer with perks that deactivate themselves just because someone dies.
The moment we apply the same standards to survivor stuff, the argument falls apart. "3 gens have been done, so your gen boost stuff stops working." "3/4 survivors are healthy, so your healing boost stuff stops working." You're punishing the player, arbitrarily, for being in a favorable position. Now, we did have DS and OTR deactivate in endgame... because it was a literal free escape. The killer getting Grim Embrace, a mere 40 seconds of slowdown (I thought it was 60. It's even worse than I thought.), does not automatically cause the the killer to win the match. The survivors can loop, heal up, body block, whatever for the 40 seconds, and then back to business as usual. A 3v1 is not an automatic survivor loss either.
Nerfing killer perks because they could* be used by tunnelers as well as normal players isn't sound logic, and would encompass basically any and all killer perks. "The killer's got Nurse's! Too much info against the tunneled!" "The killer's got Oppression! Too much gen pressure while the tunneled is on hook!" "The killer's got STBFL! Too quick of a cooldown against the tunneled!" It's ridiculous, and it would be endless. I don't even see one of these "top killer perks" so often and so consistent that any one of them sticks out too much to me. Deadlock, Grim, Corrupt, NOED, Pop, Pain Res, yeah I'll see them every now and then, more often than others, but they're not in every single match, especially not Grim. If anything, all these once-meta perks have been relegated to supplementary perks. They don't do enough on their own, so they're just there to support other perks, or vice versa.
The argument actually doesn't fall apart and is, in fact, bolstered when looking at the survivor equivalents. You mention it yourself, DS and OTR deactivate in endgame because the perks - which are otherwise fair and reasonable, at least disregarding bodyblocking with OTR - provide far too much value in the endgame specifically.
The argument could easily be made that having access to strong slowdown perks after someone's died is the same. The perks are reasonable and fair on their own, but if someone dies early, they're far too impactful.
It's not about whether a perk can be used while tunnelling, it's about how much more effective it is after someone's tunnelled out. The whole point of tunnelling someone out is that it heavily affects generator efficiency for the survivor team, because a 3v1 benefits the killer very heavily if it happens early enough, so something that harms generator efficiency even more in a very direct way becomes questionable.
It's not the only thing to fix tunnelling, obviously, and I'm not even necessarily saying it absolutely has to happen myself, but I think it's a very reasonable pitch that warrants legitimate conversation. Killers tunnelling someone out and then also getting Pain Res and Grim Embrace is a pretty obviously overwhelming advantage.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Y'all look for any possible angle to get a killer perk nerfed. It shouldn't deactivate on death, because you still hooked all 4 survivors once each. You earned the perk. How could the killer be tunneling if he got the perk to work? Unless you're trying to say he hooked 3 people, and then started tunneling, in which case how do you not win that match as survivor? That's the problem with switching to tunneling once you're already losing: it never works out. It's why killers "tunneling from the start" is such a copout, because it assumes that you only need to do it later or when losing, which is the absolute worst time to start. The greatest critics of the strategy don't even know how it works or plays out.
Every time the devs have attempted to nerf tunneling, or make something so weak that it can't be used with tunneling, it's been an abject failure. Same with anti-tunnel survivor perks. It punishes the non-tunneling killers more than the tunnelers. This change would do the same.
I mean, what exactly stops the killer from tunnelling someone out and THEN hooking the other three people?
That's kinda the point being made here. Killers can get the full effect of a strong slowdown perk after tunnelling someone out to put themselves in a massively winning position.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Really illogical change. I guess killers just have to rely on getting lucky and facing teams weak enough to lose by hooking.
Would this version of Knock Out not help against experienced survivors who know when to predrop and run?
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892461#Comment_3892461
Adranline was nerfed but DS was buffed as I said. Distortion is just a mid perk and always has been. The nerf to it actually helped Soloqueue because it made the rat playstyle less viable. Shoulder the Burden one of the strongest SWF perks ever has been added, Finesse has been added and instantly became a top 10 perk and keeps that status to this day, Iron Will (currently 11 most perk) and Flashbang (currently 17th most used perk) have both been buffed.
I forgot about Flashbang, that's fair enough. I feel like your other examples are a little misleading, though.
For one, Shoulder the Burden and Finesse haven't been buffed, they just didn't exist a year ago. That's a very different situation to the best perks in the game a year ago being better now than they were then.
For two, Iron Will and DS technically got buffs, but what they meaningfully got were "un-nerfs". Neither perk is as good now as they were prior to the more substantial nerfs that happened more than a year ago now— and for the record that's a good thing, both were pretty unhealthy prior to those changes. It's just worth pointing out that the buffed state is still weaker than where they were before and weren't the best perks in the game prior to their most recent buffs.
They're also, y'know, balanced. Both perks are pretty balanced now. I don't much like Iron Will at 100% but I don't think it's unbalanced, just kind of not great for overall perk design. They're not really perks to "warn" returning players about.
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Could be that BHVR are a Canadian company, who'd use the British English spellings (I think exclusively? They at least put the u in colour) and therefore the official wiki follows suit, but the in-game text changes to fit the US version if you're from the US?
Just spitballing, I don't know if that is the case.
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With infinite heals, they'd have to make the time spent in a locker noticeably longer in order to balance it, which I don't know that I'd personally want.
The change I'd rather see for Inner Strength is a token system, so you can cleanse multiple totems before using the heal and have it not be a waste. That wouldn't help running it with boons, but you really just kinda don't want to run Inner Strength with boons in that case. Not the end of the world.
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I don't think Red Herring and Hysteria are going to be any better because of these changes, ngl, but everything else here looks pretty sick.
Special shoutout to the death of Knock Out slugging though, that's cause for celebration!
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@Goblin_BHVR said:
We're stoked to hear that you're looking forward to these changes, and we're excited to see what kind of feedback the PTB will bring 💚
Aside the point of the thread, but A+ username
On topic though, hell yes, this looks like a good perk- I might actually use this version myself.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891962#Comment_3891962
But 3 years ago the game was not really survivor-sided. It was pretty balanced, but it shifted to killer-sided over the past years. 2021 was not 2016, 2021 the game was fairly balanced.
2021 was before patch 6.1.0, it was definitely more survivor sided.
Patch 6.1.0 was the patch that finally fixed Dead Hard, if you recall. Only a few patches before that was the patch that finally fixed Decisive Strike. The game used to lean towards survivors to varying degrees (depending on your skill level), until that big shakeup happened. 2021 was before that cutoff point.
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@VibranToucan said:
Killers have been pretty consistently nerfed over the past year. The best gen regression has been nerfed, sabotages have been buffed, hook stages have been nerfed, there is now a generator damage limit, the best Survivor perks are buffed, flashbangs are even more unavoidable than they used to be, Deceisive Strike and even better "anti-tunnel" perk has been added, hell even chests have been buffed.
Weren't the best survivor perks nerfed overall this past year?
Adrenaline and Distortion were nerfed in this past year, at least. Which of the best perks were buffed? I'm drawing a blank there.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3892144#Comment_3892144
She still has stealth? I thought they took away her pocket Insidious, which was my favourite aspect of hers
Nah, the short burst of Undetectable after deploying a drone is still there, and it's now her strongest feature.
She's also pretty quiet, so Undetectable from perks works very well on her.
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Oh nice, Chaos Shuffle's coming back, I love that mode
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Lean on her stealth.
Her drones barely function anymore, even when they aren't bugged, but her stealth has always been pretty solid (at least for this iteration, release SM's stealth was kinda bad) so you can play her as a sort of budget stealth killer and it can work.
It's a shame, really, because her power was super interesting and fun to play both as and against, in my opinion, but what happened happened. Right now she's basically only good for leveraging her admittedly above-average use of Undetectable and occasionally getting a ranged injury if things go well.
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On the topic of aura reading, I think the assumption that this is a hide and seek game is a pretty fundamental flaw in your reasoning, because this game is not a hide and seek game, it's a cat and mouse game, with the distinction being that it's geared much more around the chase than hiding from the killer all match.
Stealth still exists and is a strong, viable tool… but it's stealth with the aim of delaying or escaping a chase, not avoiding one outright. That's why aura reading being strong isn't problematic- it pushes the match towards the core gameplay loop, because everyone hiding is actually the match stalling out, not the core gameplay loop itself.
I also think it's a mistake to start applying the "earned/unearned" binary to aura reveal perks because of two reasons. The first is that not all survivor perks that are relevant to this conversation need to be "earned" either, and the second is that "earning" a perk is only one way of balancing its effect, not the only way.
Take, for example, Undying. Now, that aura reveal isn't very good, but discounting that fact, do you earn that effect? No, it's balanced by the fact that the survivors can permanently disable it, because it's a Hex.
Other perks are balanced differently than that, too. Take I'm All Ears- that perk isn't earned, but its aura reveal is also designed to be very situational. It only activates in the specific scenario that a survivor takes a rushed vault near you, and then it goes on a cooldown. That sounds pretty broad, because I'm All Ears is a good perk, but if you think about the breadth of a whole game and where else you might want aura reveal, it's pretty restricted.
On the topic of survivor perks, do you earn those aura reveals either? The good killer-reveal perks for survivor are Object of Obsession (conditionally on you being a good looper), Wiretap, Kindred, and Alert. We can see one perk that is earned via generator repair - Wiretap - but the others aren't, they're balanced differently. Object has risk, Kindred requires the killer to gain a hook, and Alert only activates when a specific action is performed by the killer.
(There's also the Blood Amber, which is the most powerful aura reveal and definitely isn't earned, but items and perks are fairly different in this context.)
The same can be said about the tools survivors would use to counter aura reading, too. Distortion may be earned by merely engaging with the game's expected gameplay loop, but are the others? Sole Survivor isn't (although that perk is trash), Shadow Step isn't, Off The Record isn't, Object of Obsession isn't. Those perks - all counters to aura reading in their own way - are balanced differently.
Aura reading isn't problematic at the moment, it's just pretty good. Stealth is still an option, survivors still have tools that counter aura reading, and most of the individual aura perks are either balanced or actually not good to begin with - though there is one exception there. Nowhere To Hide is unbalanced, it provides too much for how unrestricted it is. If that perk just revealed in a radius around the gen and didn't follow the killer, it'd be much more in line with the other good aura tools.
It's not a question of "earned" or "unearned", just "balanced" or "unbalanced". Earning a tool is one way of balancing it, not the only way.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891711#Comment_3891711
IMO the only thing which needs an actual Nerf or Change would be Boil Over (+the Flashbang Bugfix, but I dont count Bugfixes as Nerfs). Terrible designed Perk which is not even good and only annoying in specific Builds. Should have been changed ages ago.
I agree, I dont think either that "Anti-pickup tools" need to be nerfed. Sabotage is weak, Flashlights are also not that strong and usually avoidable, Flashbangs as well (when not bugged or when the Bug with losing collision is fixed).
Even without the bug in play, Flashbangs are very good and can be kind of annoying to face, I wouldn't mind a light nerf to them. Nothing crazy, just something to make them a little less potent.
Other than that though, yes, I'm mostly referring to Boil Over. I'd also like to see Power Struggle reworked, that's another really irritating one to face if survivors are trying to go for unhookable builds + pairing it with Flip Flop.
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The only real "compensation" that should happen if slugging gets harder is fixing the bug where killers lose collision when they pick up a survivor.
For anything else, as long as you can slug for a short period, you should be able to outplay really aggressive teams.
It would be nice to see some anti-pickup tools nerfed a little too since they can be a little obnoxious, but I don't think it's necessary to do at exactly the same time.
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I've made a couple posts about this in the past, but the short version is…
The main issue with Maps is that while they have a clear use case - tracking static objects within the trial - they have huge gaps in actually being able to perform that use case at all. You have to run an addon to have them track pretty much anything you'd want to reveal - like totems, for example, the major object you'd obviously want revealed - and you have absolutely no way of making them track chests - the other big static object you'd obviously want to reveal - without a perk that also does that, thus making the info redundant.
They also have an issue with sloppy tier increase effects. The Rainbow Map just has addons already baked into it, which leaves it gaining no effect from those addons if they were to be equipped.
To fix both of these issues, I would say Maps should track generators, totems, and chests by default, the difference between the tiers should either be standardised number increases or a genuinely unique effect, and the addons should be given a fresh coat of paint.
For Keys, things are messier because that item lacks a little in identity. If it were up to me, though, I'd lean in to Keys being the counterpart to Maps in that they track player positions where Maps track static objects.
To achieve this, make the teammate-revealing addons basekit, and reshuffle around the addons to better lean in to revealing players. My pitch is to include addons for revealing survivors performing specific actions (IE, healing, or repairing) even when they're outside of the Key's default range, so you have a Bond item as well as the ability to track the position of the teammate you can already see is repairing via the hud.
On top of that, probably just buff the charges and such as well for both items. They're a little underwhelming.
They're never going to compete with medkits and especially not with toolboxes in their current unbalanced state, but you can make them do their job a whole lot better and that's more than good enough imo.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891366#Comment_3891366
There are no killer sided maps, except for how Hag performs on Midwich, the Knight on The Game, or Ghost Face on Lery's. But those are niche killers with, what, 1 favorable map? A "killer sided map" would be one where all killers perform well on it, every time.
Haddonfield is a killer sided map by virtue of having such gigantic deadzones on it, which is why I used it as an example. Midwich also favours killer on average due to its size/shape and how easily patrollable the exit gates are.
There are definitely more survivor sided maps, but that doesn't mean killer leaning maps don't exist.
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It's an interesting thought experiment, but I don't think it's as much of a "final verdict" debate ender as you might hope it would be, unfortunately. There are still three very important variables that aren't being accounted for with this supposedly level playing field - two of which people I think would broadly agree with, and one of which I suspect might be a bit of a hot take of mine.
First, map. There are maps that heavily favour survivor, maps that heavily favour killer, and maps anywhere in between - if this supposedly equalised match takes place on Garden of Joy, that's going to be a very different outcome to if it takes place on Haddonfield, and so on. However, one can assume a generally down-the-middle map for these thought experiments, so that one isn't too big of a deal.
Second, killer. This one's a lot harder to average out- a perkless, addonless Trapper is going to struggle substantially more than a perkless, addonless Nurse. There's just no getting around the fact that the game doesn't and can't favour a role wholeheartedly when the killer role has such a huge variance in strength.
Third and finally… well, how's the killer playing? If it's a no holds barred, anything goes kind of match, then the killer has a significant advantage in that they have access to tunnelling, excessive slugging, and to a much smaller degree camping, but survivors don't have access to the meaningful tools to counter it. It's tempting to say therefore that killer is the stronger role, but… is it? Or are those specific strategies unbalanced?
If the killer weren't leveraging unbalanced shortcuts, it'd be a more "honest" game, so to speak, and the outcome could easily be very different. It's a meaningful distinction that should be made here, when talking about the overall state of balance.
As an aside, your post makes multiple mentions of injuries leaving survivors vulnerable indefinitely without medkits or perks, but… survivors can heal each other? That's a pretty major core part of the game. You also make reference to chases being exclusively skill based without perks to alter them in one point, but then say chases favour the killer and survivors will go down quickly in another point, which seems contradictory to me. Surely both can't be true at once?
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@Chiky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885734#Comment_3885734
that only means the first gen now will pop in 20 seconds...
With absolutely no progress anywhere else, and that's only if they A: spawn next to a four-person gen and B: choose to be that inefficient by all grouping up on it.
You still might even be able to interrupt it if they have no gen speed increases and you make a beeline for them, too.
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@Anti051 said:
The sad state of the current DbD game build is that killers can be punished by anti-tunnel features even if they don't tunnel; You can't restrict killers into a hook-only-and-never-tunnel situation unless there are fair shutoff conditions for anti-tunnel features.
Actively trying to "play fair" and never tunnel, only to get punished anyway by "anti-tunnel" features is one of the heaviest catalysts that drive killer mains to embrace slugging. These killers are trying to play around improperly implemented mechanics…So just fix those mechanics to only work when a survivor is truly being targeted by malicious tunnel-vision, THEN place your restrictions.
Forcing killers to eat a wall of undeserved extra chances + further diminishing ways to work around that wall is likely to have a nasty impact on the desire to queue for the killer role.
To be fair, the only anti-tunnel feature you ever actually have to deal with when not tunnelling is very specifically Endurance.
Stuff like Babysitter, Blood Rush, Shoulder the Burden, and Decisive Strike can't be weaponised that way, so it's not that difficult to envision a fix that just targets the Endurance.
Personally, I support replacing post-unhook Endurance with losing collision, so you can't bodyblock aggressively for your teammates with it.
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@jokere98 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890318#Comment_3890318
except if you're not nearby for the person who just got off hook, theycouldat least feel the need to reset, which keeps them off generators a little bit longer.why would they? 🤔
People do still like to heal, in general.
Hypothetically I might agree that staying injured is often a smart choice, at least temporarily, but in my experience in both roles the survivors typically like to heal when they can.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890312#Comment_3890312
still not addressing what I said.
survivor gets unhooked. killer sees survivor get unhooked. survivor starts running towards a direction where you know a gen is nearly complete. killer has two options:
A: chase survivor so they dont just run to the gen and do it. except oh wait if the killer does that then they eat ######### due to OTR or literal godmode
B: killer chases someone else. survivor goes to gen and completes it.
none of these situations feel fun or fair. it doesn't matter who's doing gens and who isn't.It's very much addressing what you said.
If you choose option A, you are not stopping gen repair in general, just that one survivor doing gen repair. The other three survivors are also free to do generators in this scenario and will most likely loop around to do the one that's nearly finished.
If you choose option B, you are not stopping gen repair in general either, just the survivor you're chasing… except if you're not nearby for the person who just got off hook, they could at least feel the need to reset, which keeps them off generators a little bit longer.
The literal only difference is that picking option A is trying to tunnel for the easier chase, it doesn't have anything to do with gen repair.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890306#Comment_3890306
yeah, you could go chase someone else. which allows that survivor who was immune to start doing whatever they want.
survivor gets unhooked, they get OTR or in this case, godmode. killer cant chase survivor because of that. survivor is free to go to any gen they want.
the "conspicuous action = fair" argument is dumb, because it's based on a premise that the killer should not be able to interrupt the survivors with those perks before they do any gens, only after because that's when the perk disables. the perks say "if you chase me, you have to eat my off the record or godmode. if you dont, you know damn well im just going to go for a generator." not very fun or balanced.I mean, yeah, at every point in the match, SOMEONE is going to be doing generators. That doesn't change if you target the person who was just on the hook, it only changes WHO is going to be doing generators.
If you're already in a chase with someone else when the unhook happens, though, you're doing more overall damage to gen efficiency and you don't have to eat any anti-tunnel measures. That's much better overall.