jesterkind
jesterkind
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I don't think we're likely to see outfits both because of lobby dodging but also, perhaps more importantly, because something THAT big for reaching P100 is going to encourage more people to undertake that grind, and it's long enough that it will frustrate and burn out the people who are doing it only to get a cool skin at the end.
Personally, I've always thought it'd be pretty cool to have charms that are void-touched silhouettes of the survivors or, for killers, void-touched versions of their power icons. It'd be neat to rep up to three characters at once in a subtle way like that.
I do think it's worth pointing out that the prestige rewards they're planning might not be for P100, it could be for the steps between the last reward at P9 and the final step at P100.
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@DeBecker said:
Whats the point in getting statistics which have no definition of their underlying factors and thereby are quite useless to make any conclusions out of?
Neat trivia and conversation starters, mostly.
The stats aren't supposed to be considered as hard evidence when they're shared, they're meant to just be an interesting novelty.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
@jesterkind Okay, thanks for your patience. I went and and pulled the video showing how charges can be lost very quickly out of the reddit link. Pardon sound quality, but video from video caused degradation. This is only 22 seconds long, so not a long watch.
The end result after all of them having unbreakable was a single hook. You'll see here that at the beginning of the match, the killer is penalized for survivor mistakes by having one of the gens get nearly half of its charged lost in a matter of 10 seconds. This isn't at the fault of the killer. This isn't the killer making "bad plays". Imagine if the survivors had progress on more gens? That's 3 MAYBE 4 gens within surge range…all would have had nearly half of their allotted 8 regression limits evaporated within 10 seconds. The killer is then significantly punished for this for the remainder of the match, as those gens will perma-lock up FAST.
Now remember, the whole intent of the 8 regression limit is to try to shut down trolls:
BHVR quotes:
"…3 gen scenarios are those where the killer aims to defend 3 generators that are close by in particular, anddoes not participate in normal gameplay - not chasing survivors, etc, in this instance survivors are not able to make any meaningful progress to those generators.""…In the overwhelming majority of games, this will
notcome into play. However, in scenarios where the Killer is defending a set of Generatorsand refusing to chase Survivors, there will eventually come a point where they can no longer damage the Generator…"This means it's specifically designed to shut down killers essentially holding the game hostage by defending and refusing to participate in chases\downs\hooks.
So essentially, I've provided a variety of ways that the 8 regression lockup can occur. The first video earlier (knight video) had shown where survivors can weaponize the system to permanently lock a gen within minutes of the match beginning. Your suggestion was the knight simply not regress the gen, but then the gen is simply lost (it's a vital gen). Lose-Lose situation.
The second video (I replaced it) showed you were a killer making bad plays can trigger permanent lockdown even if not 3 gen camping and running around chasing and hooking.
The third video (replaced a few comments above) shows a standard match where killer and survivors just play normally - I'm sure both making mistakes occasionally, but that's literally part of the game.
The fourth video here (the 22 seconds one) shows that by zero fault of the killer, survivors can make mistakes which can eliminate nearly half the charges of multiple gens within 10 seconds.
On average, ALL of my matches are 10-15 minutes before and after the 8 regression limit, so the whole "it prevented an extended match from happening" isn't valid.
That's a mix of bad killer plays, neutral killer and survivor plays, and bad survivor plays - all of them triggering unfairly on regression hits as no 3-gen camping was occurring.
In the end, this means that the 8 regression limit is ABSOLUTELY affecting games where there is no 3-gen camping going on, at all, and when it happens, it's MOSTLY happening due to m1 killers being forced by the survivors to focus in one small area of the map due to their inability to quickly move across large distances. One might say, "Well it doesn't happen enough to warrant a fix", but I see this happening on streams very commonly, and besides, the last thing weak m1 killers with no mobility needs are to be unfairly harmed by a system that's designed to punish trolls.
Sorry about the late response, yesterday was a busy one for me. Happy to get back into things now!
So, there's a couple things I want to clarify about my position as we move forward.
First, I really want to hammer home one big thing - when you say that a killer playing badly shouldn't be harmed more by a generator being locked up, I want to make it clear that the only thing I'm talking about, in general, is that if you play badly your chances of winning are lower. I'm not saying a player should be outright punished for playing badly with a heavy blow, just that if you repeatedly make mistakes, the game will get harder in ways that are specific to those mistakes.
Before this system, overly kicking/damaging gens made the match slightly harder to win because you were giving survivors too much time to make distance and/or evade you. Gen kicks aren't and never have been actually impactful, after all.
After the system, it's broadly the same but there are some edge cases where you might also get a gen locked up midway into the match. I'm not saying those edge cases are super niche, one of them is just having Surge equipped, but it's also not just kicking the gens that causes it, there has to be more going on.
Second, I think it's important that we take a step back and remember what the punishment we're discussing actually is. If you play poorly by focusing on stalling gens, you don't just automatically lose, that one generator becomes impossible for you to continue damaging. Considering that your job as killer is not to stop the gens from being completed, they're merely a timer for you to complete your actual job, and considering that the bulk of a killer's slowdown broadly comes from survivors being too occupied to work on gens to begin with, that isn't actually that big of a deal for any player that isn't trying to stall the gens out.
It can be a relatively noticeable deal, there are centre gens where you get a harder endgame if they're completed early, but even that isn't unwinnable. You have to make a play in the endgame and broadly forgo regressing the last gen, but it's salvageable. I think this is worth mentioning because we're not talking about making one mistake (or a series of instances of the same mistake, even) and that's it, game over. We're talking about that mistake leading to a very specific unfavoured position that you can still come back from. It's just that you don't come back from it by continuing to focus on generators.
Don't get me wrong, the gen locking up IS a gigantic deal if you're trying to stall, 3-gen or otherwise, this system does work for the cases we both agree it should, but if you aren't… at worst it's a knock and something you adapt to, it isn't inherently game-losing.
Third, I do find the video you posted interesting, because you're immediately put into a favourable position - less favourable than outright winning because of the Unbreakable, but still favoured - and you really don't have any reason to continue attacking that generator. If it does get locked up, are you even really affected? It's one generator in this clip, and while I'd grant that you'd notice the situation more if it were more than one… you've still put the survivors into a hard reset, pressing that advantage means they're not even doing that much gen repair to begin with.
That's the broad pattern, and that's where my ultimate position is. Unless you view stopping the generators from being done as a fundamental necessity for the killer role, even the worst case scenario of the gen actually reaching the eighth event limit is like… just sort of that gen no longer being a resource for you after a delay, right? It's still a place survivors congregate, it still counts as one of their objectives that you can prevent them from being able to repair, but you no longer get to kick it.
Fourth and probably finally unless I remember something while I'm typing, I do want to concede something. I went and looked at the dev update in question again, and I'll admit that I remembered the phrasing being more concrete that it actually is. The devs DO specifically frame the system as being more broad than JUST 3-gen camping, having it in brackets as an "in particular", but what I recalled as "excessive stall" was phrased instead as "excessively long matches".
I still think that's relatively ambiguous and definitely not "this system should only affect the most extreme forms of 3-gen camping", but even if it isn't, I would maintain that the extra scenarios this system does affect aren't a problem. You're affected a little if you fall into the bad habit of excessive gen kicking, but it isn't game over unless you're also only excessively kicking those gens. It is, at worst, a soft pressure to learn better habits and improve your gameplay, because you just lose the ability to keep doing that habit after enough attention.
At best I'd say Surge makes that habit particularly prone to backfiring. I feel like even with the bad habit of excessively kicking generators, if you're not running Surge, you're not losing events even close to as much.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916974#Comment_3916974
Okay, how about this. The survivors are blatantly making mistakes at the beginning of the match. Within 20 seconds, a gen has already reached almost HALF of it's allocated regression hits - if other gens were being worked on, this would have affected THREE gens. Due to the survivors being out of position and blatantly making mistakes, the killer is punished heavily. Naturally, all of these survivors had unbreakable, so this only netted in a single hook. (sorry, external linking is broken in the forum, so will have to copy and paste)
and here's a match where one of the center gens is locked up despite giving chases and not just sitting at a 3 gen camping. The moment ghostie chases a survivor off it, 2 more survivors come swarming to immediately do repairs. The option is to give chase and lose the gen, or just sit at the gen and camp. Both options will result in a failed match. You'll notice that any time ghostie leaves the center of the map, his pressure drops to absolutely nothing, and the center gens get a LOT of progress.
(excuse the crappy gameplay - was very sick this day and on meds, ha)
https://youtu.be/DGgmKCA9jfA?si=Oq3yowD7NPcvWePG
It's a lose-lose for m1 killers with no mobility with the 8 regression limit. They can't afford to leave the center without losing a lot of pressure, and you'll also notice the survivors aren't even bothering to work on the far away gens - just throwing everything at the center. This is using only ONE regression perk and the WEAKEST one, at that. With eruption, this would have blocked even faster.
Again, this is clearly an issue specifically for m1 killers with no mobility. For killers with mobility, they can patrol the gens (ESPECIALLY the center gens) so fast, survivors naturally need to spread out and apply pressure globally across all gens. For killers without mobility, this need to spread out isn't needed, so survivors can just safely stay pressuring the middle of the map easily. This means the weakest killers in the game specifically are far more susceptible to the 8 regression limit than all other killers - even if a 3 gen camp isn't happening. Those weak m1 no mobility killers don't need the extra weakness. Instead, the 8 regression limit should only occur when 3 gen camping is happening - ie they aren't chasing or hooking - just sitting and camping.
Please note, I'm not asking to remove something to stop 3 gen camping (which is indeed lame). I'm just asking for it not to affect anyone not actually camping. I don't think that's an unfair request. Either move the 8 regression limit to starting when there's 3 gens left, or have the counter reduced but reset when someone is hooked…because if someone is being chased and hooked - clearly they aren't just sitting at 3 gens refusing to push the objective which is what the 8 limit was supposed to stop.
For the record, I am not contesting that less mobile killers are likely to stick around the centre gens, or whatever gens are actively being worked on to force a gen split if it's not literally the centre. I agree with that part, that part makes perfect sense to me.
What I'm contesting is that the situation described above means the killer needs to kick generators that often. I've played M1 killers, I've played them in scenarios like this, and I've still never seen the regression limit system kick in. It implies that you're actually attacking generators that often, which my position on is that it's a bad play if you're an immobile killer, you don't have time to be paying attention to the generators. It's not a luxury that you can afford if you can't make up for that time with mobility or fast chases afterwards.
I watched the youtube video - not following reddit links, apologies - and there are two broad points to make about it.
First, despite what the video is titled, you did not lose this match because of the regression limit, you lost because you didn't play very well and were outplayed at several points. That's not me dismissing this video outright, to be clear, I still have points to make, and it's also not me trying to insult you- especially if you were sick and on some kinda cold meds, nobody's gonna judge you for losing a match of DBD, it happens.
The second is that even accounting for this, you still stopped to kick generators thoughtlessly with a perk equipped that removes any necessity to do that. While it's not 3-gen camping, it is - perhaps accidentally - still what BHVR were attempting to address with the regression limit, which is excessive generator stall.
It's not about whether or not you're camping, it's about how much generators should be stalled within a match. At the end of the day, you still need to actually progress your objective and play your macro game, not just stall out your opponent's. You specifically may not have been attempting to grind the match fully to a halt… but you were still trying to rely on attrition, and if that worked, then someone who is trying to grind the match to a halt would be able to do it. That's why this system wasn't just exclusively designed around 3-gen camping, that was just the main problem that necessitated it.
The absolute best you could conclude from that video is… it's possible to accidentally trip the limit because of poor play. That's a pretty reasonable edge case, in my opinion.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916931#Comment_3916931
The problem here is the killer doesn't know that there's a survivor nearby the gen. He's literally running off to chase survivors he thought was on the gen. The answer is for him to just sit and camp the gen and don't do chases? Thats clearly even more problematic.
In the end, bad play or not, this shows the system is absolutely affecting killers who are not 3 gen camping despite BHVRs claims that it would never happen.
If they kick the generator, and when they check again they're capable of kicking the generator another time, they know someone came back to undo the regression. In this particular video, the correct play - and the difference between a mediocre player and a good one - would be to send the guard out on patrol to catch whoever observably keeps coming back to repair.
For other killers without a tool like that, you'd expect them to at least check the section you're hiding in, that's a no brainer.
To the last part, it's worth mentioning that BHVR's phrasing wasn't that killers who are not 3 gen camping would never be affected. Their phrasing is that eight regression limits aren't reached in the average match and players who aren't excessively stalling the match (their actual target, 3-genning being the most egregious example but not the only one) wouldn't see it.
Which, most people aren't. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've even seen the warning spikes pop up in either killer or survivor games, and I've never seen a gen be actually blocked.
Hearing that it shouldn't affect the average match doesn't mean there's something wrong if it is affecting you, necessarily. It could also mean you're playing in the way they wanted to discourage.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916869#Comment_3916869
Fair question, so here is an example. I play a lot of survivor, and it's quite easy to weaponixe the whole system to permanently lock a central gen within the first 3-5 minutes of a match. The moment the killer leaves, you simply repair it beyond auto regress line. Either the killer doesn't touch the gen (you win the gen) or he kicks it (you get a free locked up gen within minutes).
I've seen this video before, and the third option is "the killer actually prioritises the survivors they know are on this gen".
This isn't an example of the system being badly designed, it's an example of bad play accidentally tripping the system. It's also exactly what I'm referring to when I say it affects players that heavily prioritise attacking generators over doing something important.
The argument could be made that a system should be designed to not accidentally punish bad players too if that isn't their intention, and I'd be sympathetic to that, but I don't think this specifically is particularly problematic. It just teaches players not to focus on generators over their objective.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
My issue with the 8 regression limit is that it unfairly punishes weak m1 killers with no mobility.
Killers with no mobility cannot afford to travel very far to gens at the outer edges of the map. Survivors also know this, so survivors leave those gens last. That means the only targets (survivors) available are at the center of the map AND the killer can't afford the lack of pressure to travel to non-central gens anyway. That means the no mobility killers are forced to stay at the center which means the only gens they will be interacting with ARE those center gens. This means they are FAR more likely to be unfairly hit with the 8 regression limit thanks to survivors hammering out those center gens - especially if perks like surge are used hitting multiple gens or if eruption hits which takes up TWO regression hits. This doesn't affect killers with mobility because they can easily cross the map. This means they can patrol ALL gens, and considering their mobility, they can guard those center gens far easier which means survivors will want to spread out to draw the killer away from the center.
Long story short. The 8 regression limit really hurts no mobility killers with no rangefar more often than it hurts a couple of problematic killers who are good at 3 gen camping. They need to make the 8 regression limit only begin once there's only 3 gens left to ensure it's only affecting 3 gen campers and stop hurting weak m1 killers who weren't even 3 gen camping.
I don't see how this can be true, personally.
Eight regression events per generator is high enough that you're not going to hit it on the gens you're interacting with regardless of which gens they are, unless you're focusing really hard on stalling generators by constantly kicking them yourself.
The more immobile, weaker killers don't have the time to spare messing with generators over doing something important, so if anything, they're less likely to see this system fire. To me it seems like the system affects mobile and immobile killers equally- which is to say, it only affects players that focus on damaging generators over progressing their objective or practising good macro play.
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I don't think new perks are the answer, necessarily. It'd probably be a better idea to address the big problem areas with survivor at the moment, like tunnelling, aggressive slugging, the go-next epidemic, and the few problematic weak maps.
A few of those things are on the roadmap, at least, so I'm holding out hope it's done properly and the queue times can go back to being reasonable on both sides lmao
Off topic but -
@buggybug said:
Like I said about a million times non stop nerfs to survivors is making none wanna touch the role, now that I got to p 100 on my trevor I been deciding this entire week if to even bother continue playing or take a break or heck even stop playing dbd entirely.
Healing= nerfed and bad
Chases builds = nerfed
Flashlights/bangs=nerfed
Endurance stacking =gone
Speed boost when hit from killer nerfed= and tbh it seem worst like the speed boost went from 1.8 to just 1 seconds and am shocked no one talk about this
Wiggle build = nerf removed with great wiggle skills meaningless since specially pc killers do not struggle with 50+ hooks added
Stealth build= nerf
Maps= 90% of them full of garbage loops, unsafe pallets the size of a peanut.
Killers = every killer getting buff as if the goal is to make them A or S it seem like Hound master being over buffed and am sure I do not need to list all the killers who has gotten buffs.
Lightburn =removed which was a decent counter to artist and wraith.
Swfs=like my 30+ friends who quit dbd leaving and thus your stuck with solo q potatoes who 90% bad cause most veteran players has seem to quit the game like swfs.
Perks= Alot of perks that are niche too worthless or just copy and paste of each other example calm spirit vs harden
Killers= seem to be a new thing of copy and paste with a few tweaks. Like honestly Myers vs ghosty there is barely much diffence to them. Dracula is literally spirit+demo+triangle head.
Alas maybe its just me but I am not facing as many ghouls now as before so I doubt its really just a ghoul thing that's causing this but more of all what I said above. Sorry for the on going rant op.
Edit= grammar mistakes.
What do you mean when you say chase builds were nerfed, what perks are you referring to? I have a better sense on what you're talking about on the other bullet points even if I disagree - healing, for example, is in a fantastic spot right now, it's not even close to bad - but I'm just flat out not sure what you're referring to with that one.
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I gotta say, I've never felt Eyrie is that bad as killer. It's a little survivor sided and some of the tiles are annoying to play, but it pales in comparison to the genuinely problematic maps like Badham or Garden of Joy.
To give some advice, though, don't patrol at all, that's often a losing proposition. Go straight to the survivors and pressure them, not the generators.
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@VirtuaTyKing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916567#Comment_3916567
Well thats good but people think it does or they wouldn't do it. Me unless its a 1 shot killer I just unhook if 2 are left but a lot of people don't.
I think they probably just want to win and aren't thinking about MMR much in that moment, honestly. The incentive to escape is there regardless.
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@VirtuaTyKing said:
Well It's too basic conditions for survivor.
You could have someone thats a rat waiting for hatch that didn't do much at all. MMR up.
Someone that keeps killer busy best part of a match and the rest get out. MMR down.
So dumb!
For killers I think MMR carries over to other killers you play. Then maybe pans out I don't know.
Not ideal when you're learning them but there is training offline I guess.
Overall the system doesn't work for me.
I never quit as survivor unless it's clear survivors all wanna crouch in a bush and do nothing whole game.
So why am I put with quitters far too often? I get a good team here and there!
Killer is fine mostly although the better I do the more likely I'm to get a SWF on coms calling out my every move or a bunch of cheaters. I barely even care anymore or I wouldn't play otherwise.
Hatch doesn't make your MMR go up, for the record. It's considered neutral for both the survivor who escaped and for the killer.
As for the second example, it's important to remember any kind of MMR system is an aggregate number, it doesn't go up or down that much based on one single match. That kind of game is typically an outlier, so it shouldn't have too much of an effect on your MMR placement.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916415#Comment_3916415
The only rough side of a design like that is that their power level would be made so low because they're so easy to play.
Likely, but I do still like the idea. It's a neat concept.
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This might be too specific an answer, but for a while now I've wanted a killer that just excels at M1 fundamentals without any extra frills. Something like, this killer's "power" just being a 120% movement speed and a basekit Enduring that doesn't stack with the perk.
Add onto that a suite of addons for defining playstyles, and you'd have a killer that would appeal very heavily to me specifically.
Kinda like if Waterlogged Shoe Hag had a set of addons explicitly designed around playing her that way, and also you never used her traps lol
That's one way of achieving it, but in general, M1 fundamentals killers would be nice to see. More passive buffs than an active power.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916013#Comment_3916013
Arguably the addition of the 5th box + the search changes introduced back in 2023, patch 6.0.0, to combat AFK pigs was also a nerf. Just adding that for the record to show.
The addition of the fifth box was sort of arguable, there were arguments both ways as to whether that would be a buff or a nerf, but the search changes were unambiguously a buff.
(I personally feel the fifth box was overall a positive, especially combined with the search changes, but it is more subjective there.)
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@jokere98 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3916042#Comment_3916042
what about Chucky and almost Xenomorph (at least he(?) got saved)
Not even remotely comparable.
The intent behind the Xenomorph changes was, explicitly, to buff the killer. The changes didn't work out that way in most people's eyes, and so they didn't go live.
Chucky, similarly, hasn't ever had his core gameplan surgically dismantled like Skull Merchant did. He had a handful of straightforward balance changes that some people feel went too far, which isn't close to what happened to Merchant. People only act like it is because they feel he's bad now, which ignores a whole bunch of important context.
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@deckyr said:
the point is that he's got the same kill rate as skull merchant had and she got destroyed for being this strong. and the only recompense is that she's getting a rework "someday", and the rework they showed us looked terrible.
if they let freddy sit there or give him nuanced and thoughtful numbers tweaks to bring his kill rate slightly down, then the skull merchant dumpstering was unnecessary and absolutely unfair.
if they dumpster freddy, then they're at least consistent, even if it's a terrible thing to do and makes the game worse.
Skull Merchant wasn't nuked because of her kill rate, she was nuked because of the (largely irrational and unfair) hatred the community fostered for her.
I don't agree with the decision and I've criticised it a lot in the past, but it is important to acknowledge that what happened was pretty exceptional circumstances and is very unlikely to happen to another killer.
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I have no idea why they'd remove it, that'd be an insane decision. They'll probably just give it a few tweaks, which would certainly be welcome.
Not sure what those tweaks might be, though. Ideally it'd be something to address backfill issues, because that's the biggest problem point with the system as I understand it.
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@CLHL said:
No more The Pig in the top ranking. Can this finally be the year? A year without nerfs for The Pig?
Pig hasn't been overall nerfed since 2019, she's received almost exclusively buffs since then. If you don't count removing the aura of Jigsaw boxes in the most recent change, it's just exclusively buffs, no almost about it.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915941#Comment_3915941
Twins are probably right behind Skerchant in the least fun to play against category.
Okay…?
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@RainehDaze said:
I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of the stats when the very limited info we've given apparently leads to the conclusion that the Twins need a nerf, of all things.
Not that I condone making balance changes purely based on stats, but to be fair, the Twins have always been very strong. Their problem has always been that they barely function- when they do function and when you put the time in, they're nasty as hell.
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Double posting in here but I just remembered- I'm putting in an official request to see survivor pickrates next time we see stats!
Not killer pickrates, not perk pickrates, show me the popularity contest. Who gets picked the most, who gets picked the least, purely on their aesthetics and charm alone.
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@Cassiopeiae said:
A fundamental problem with Dead by Daylight lies in the disparity between what the community desires and the direction Behavior Interactive (BHVR) continues to take. Players consistently advocate for balance—specifically, an equilibrium reflected in a 50% kill rate and fairness across gameplay metrics. In contrast, BHVR appears to pursue inflated kill rates.
Rather than addressing systemic design issues—such as the speed at which objectives are completed or the growing irrelevance of older, underpowered killers—BHVR frequently introduces overpowered killers. These new additions are not created to enrich the game's depth but rather to artificially compensate for existing shortcomings.
One of the most glaring consequences of this approach is the diminishing importance of the chase. The traditional mechanics of looping and outplaying the killer are being phased out in favor of simple "hold W" gameplay. Players no longer engage in skillful evasion; instead, they are often forced to run in a straight line until they are inevitably and rapidly downed.
This direction undermines the core of what made Dead by Daylight engaging in the first place—tension, strategy, and outmaneuvering. If not addressed, it risks alienating a player base that values depth and balance.
No player genuinely wants to queue into yet another match where a killer like The Ghoul (as an example) is capable of flying across the map, landing a free hit on the first survivor they see, gaining an empower state in the process, and then closing the remaining distance faster than it takes someone to walk into their kitchen and forget why they went there in the first place.
This kind of design does not foster engagement—it undermines it. The encounter shifts from being a tactical exchange of skill and mind games to a preordained sprint where survivors are punished not for poor decisions, but simply for existing within the killer’s line of sight. The moment-to-moment gameplay devolves into passivity, with little room for meaningful interaction or counterplay.
When killers are designed to skip entire phases of interaction, it stops feeling like a match and starts feeling like a cutscene.
I think you have a bit of recency bias showing here, personally.
Ghoul might fit into the model that you laid out because that killer is genuinely kinda messed up, but most recent killers have been geared more around punishing hold W and promoting actual looping, on top of not many really releasing anywhere close to overpowered.
Houndmaster released absolutely terrible, and while her dog vault is pretty nasty, you get much more from looping her traditionally than you do from holding W, where she can just throw the dog at you easily.
Dracula is a top tier, but again, his power is more geared around you dodging his two mid-chase cooldowns in a loop then making distance, which is actual looping. If you hold W against him without looping, Bat form and Wolf form's Pounce can easily punish you for it.
Lich is only decent, and again, is more geared around dodging his (much more impactful, mind you) cooldowns. Flight of the Damned and Mage Hand are mid-chase tools, yes, but they're tools to be played around, whereas Fly can rush you down for attempting to hold W.
Unknown, too, only decent and geared around dodging in chase via breaking LoS. Holding W just gets you hit, very similarly to Huntress.
Chucky started overpowered, but every nerf he's received has been targeted at letting you loop him easier, which I would argue pokes a hole in your argument on its own; a recent killer has been changed to move away from the model you've laid out.
Xenomorph and Singularity both need you to engage with a map prop before you loop, but once you do, again, that's how you counter them, not hold W. Xeno has less to punish you for holding W, but Singularity can just flat out teleport to you if you try.
I won't belabour the point with more examples, that's already a fair ways back on this list anyway. I just think you're mistaken that the game's promoting hold W over traditional looping, I think recent killers have been designed for the exact opposite.
As an aside, it's a little questionable if a 50% kill rate would be balanced, since that could very easily result in killers actually losing on average. I won't pretend to be a mathematician, I don't know all the specifics, but it's not really cut and dry what kill rate number would automatically be balanced and fair.
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In case any devs are reading, I'm curious - any chance we could know if Freddy's kill rates have dropped at all since his rework? My assumption is a good chunk of this number comes from the chaos post-rework, which would track. I'm curious if there's been a sharp drop since people adjusted, or if he's still performing that well.
I don't need an exact number or anything, it's just idle curiosity. Neat stats otherwise, interesting to think about.
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@CLHL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915679#Comment_3915679
So I must assume that the request for all these measures is based on a lie. Because if there is no tunneling, nor slugging, there would be no need to do anything.
I mean. Surely I don't need to point out that there's a big grey area between "it doesn't exist" and "a vast majority of players are doing it".
Like, say, "a noticeable minority are doing it and it's problematic when they do", for example.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915704#Comment_3915704
Mmm. Although, the time taken to eliminate someone via slugging isn't really the important factor, is it? Bleeding people out is rarely the winning play.
The uneven rewards comes into play for tunnelling in a similarly funny manner. If slugging is a bad choice, tunnelling is a (comparatively) good one. Because unless it's a very co-ordinated group (and honestly, that's such a small number it's not really the consideration here), that's more likely to force misplays.
It's a factor, and one that does matter.
And yeah, you're right. Tunnelling is comparatively a good choice, it's unbalanced enough that you can get massive rewards from comparatively little effort, that's why tunnelling is such a big problem. It's moreso than slugging because the amount of coordination and preparation needed to fully thwart tunnelling is considerably more than you'd need to thwart slugging.
The same concept sort of applies to aggressive slugging, you can get high rewards for low effort, but the contexts are a little different. Tunnelling's the bigger problem and warrants the more aggressive fix, but they both have issues.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915696#Comment_3915696
The balance problem is: you also get basically all of that for slugging someone. And that's why hooking loses out on pure time efficiency.
Which is what gives us the current headache; not hooking too easily slides into being better than hooking, and when hooking is good it also leads to less-fun outcomes.
You get similar rewards, but they're lesser.
There's less positional advantage and there's much less time pressure to go save when you're slugging someone, hooks provide better rewards on that front.
Slugging is also much, much more vulnerable to coordinated play and counterpick perks. Just the single perk Unbreakable changes slugging from "moderately less rewards in exchange for more time efficiency" to "absolutely zero reward and a pure timesink".
Hooks are also much faster to eliminate someone with. Three hooks and you're dead, realistically on most survivors in most games that's three chases. Slugging takes four accumulated minutes, and there's a lot of variation on how many chases that'll be. Even looking at uninterrupted timers, slugging takes almost twice as long.
The current headache is actually that slugging provides uneven rewards. Against uncoordinated solo queue players it looks like hooking is an obsolete relic of the past. Against more coordinated and especially more prepared groups, it's a situational tool that couldn't ever hope to replace hooking.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915641#Comment_3915641
Saboing is not something you can rely on much and requires quite a few perks and specific addons to happen more than once a game successfully.
And once a game is, already, game changing. If someone gets away without being hooked after being chased and downed – if the game is balanced around 12 hooks, making it 13 is a win. It's also like a sneaky DS if someone wouldn't have been on a gen anyway: time is the only resource a Killer has. Another extra chase is massive.
A single extra sabo tends to bring out slugging (or tunnelling if it's one Survivor) ASAP because it's too much of a throw to engage with hooking when you're going to fail. Ditto for dedicated breakout. The best thing to do is turn altruism against Survs then and just bleed someone out.
And hooking is more viable than ever in DBD history, wdym? The issue is that people like you just hook willy-nilly on the closest hook whenever you hook. Go take strategic hooks, go that extra 5 second time investment so survivors are forced to hooktrade or end up multiple people injured.
Have you looked at default hook spread any time recently…? In a lot of maps, you don't have multiple hooks to go for if you don't want someone to have a good chance of wiggling free (see above for that being a game changer).
The thing that makes hooking not viable is… unless you're getting someone out, it doesn't get a Killer a lot. Progressing the win condition doesn't make it easier to win. It makes it harder.
Think about that one. You have a pickup animation, walking to the hook, a hook animation – time not spent putting pressure on other survivors. If that's not a kill, you're almost wasting time unless you have hook perks that recoup that time investment and more. Or unless you've got a way to make the hooking itself get time back… basement builds, proxy camping, etc. And that's not even counting that the actual hooking of someone is the most vulnerable you can be to time wastes: body blocking, breakout, sabo, flashlight saves, flashbangs, etc.
The altruism when people go for those plays also throws matches, when done to excess, but this kind of highlights the problem here: hooking is only the good choice when other people are being dumb. Otherwise, it's a time sink once you take eliminating a player out of the equation.
And hooking going wrong? Well, there's the time problem again.
(Mind, my favourite way to play is currently fire up + forever entwined + brutal + bamboozle/enduring because 'do things fast' is fun with a mobility Killer, but that doesn't mean I can't see the problems when I'm not)
Those timesinks you talk about - the pickup, the walk to a hook, the hook animation - are spent setting up your pressure, is the crucial thing missing from your rundown.
When you have a survivor on the hook, you can start getting the ball rolling properly. Assuming you know where to go for a chase (which you should, either through base tracking or perks- downtime spent searching for survivors is a critical mistake often made), you can reliably set up a situation where, for a brief moment, gen repair is slowed by 75%.
The survivor on hook can't do gens, obviously. The survivor you're chasing can't do gens either, also obviously. The important part is that someone else has to come off to save the survivor on the hook, and they can't do gens either. The travel time to the hook, unhook animation, possibly a heal, and then travel time back to their gen adds up.
This is the gold standard for killer while everyone's alive, it's the best situation you can be in without some extra objective occupying the fourth survivor. Get the down before the save happens and you're doing even better, though that part can be unreliable.
Hooking very much 100% gives you something even if it isn't eliminating a survivor. It sets up the macro game for killer, it's vitally important to good killer play in general. Obviously sometimes you'd deviate from it, sometimes slugging is better, but by default you're aiming to maximise pressure from hooks.
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@CLHL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915551#Comment_3915551
May I remind you that a chase between a competitive killer and survivor of a similar level usually exceeds two minutes? It's easy to say that killers lacks skill because people who are clearly the top players of this game destroy in public matches. We always take the best among the killers for example, usually streamers and competitive players, but then for the survivors we choose the worst.
The reality is that the final killrate is the desired one, which means that the vast majority of players barely win their games and they do so by resorting to all these tactics that are intended to be eliminated. To deny the impact this would have on the balance sheet is to deny a reality.
I feel like the easiest thing to contest there would be… do the vast majority of players resort to these tactics? That's kind of an unsourced claim here, it can't be treated as an objective fact.
After that, I also want to contest the idea that these tactics are intended to be eliminated. We don't know what the changes are yet, and we do know that BHVR tends to be fairly moderate with basekit adjustments like this, usually aiming to weaken or alleviate instead of outright remove.
Personally, I imagine that properly successful anti-tunnel and some appropriate levels of anti-slug would lead to a short-term, minor drop in kill rates that corrects itself once people adjust. Sometimes you'll lose a match that tunnelling could've saved, hypothetically, but that doesn't actually mean something's wrong.
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@Skillfulstone said:
It's really weird to me that they are setting themselves up to spend a lot of time & ressources buffing/reworking a whole bunch of perks and add-ons by removing Haste/Hinder stacking (reducing variety and indirectly nerfing a few Killers) instead of just putting a cap to Haste (like 8% for Survivors, for example, in order to keep Haste strong without making Survivors able to outright be faster than the Killer, even more so for 110% Killers. 8% Haste without time limit/exhaustion is still very strong even if it requires more than one perk & setup) that only Killer powers, exhaustion perks & add-ons can circumvent (to preserve perk & add-on variety as much as possible, leave Killer powers alone and still allow buffs to weaker perks & open the doors for future Haste perks without worrying about stacking creating problems).
We know that making effects not stack on a perk-to-perk basis is possible, so some very strong Haste perks could simply have that caveat if their effect are judged too strong if not just on their own.
Putting a simple cap would remove so much work and negative consequences on variety (not to mention significantly mitigate negative reactions, if the forums/YT/Reddit are to be believed) that it baffles me that it wasn't the first attempt to fix the issue.
Removing stacking not only hurts variety & hurts certain Killers, but also severely limits the future of potential new Killers with Haste/Hinder as a component in their kit (like currently Clown, Wesker, Singu and Trapper to name a few even without any add-ons). It'll just make things more complicated and costly long-term.
I would argue the removal of stacking makes it easier to add killers with Haste or Hindered in their kit going forward, because the devs can give this hypothetical new killer a number without worrying about all of the ways it could be nickel-and-dimed up to an unintended and unbalanced number.
This way, the killer has the number they have, and can't exceed it without using a perk that's already designed to allow killers to move at that speed for that duration under that condition.
I'm not saying what the devs are doing here is perfect, but I 100% see how just removing stacking is less work. No more micromanaging what could be combined with what, no trying to hit the moving target of what the fair cap number should be or coding in exceptions and caveats… everything just gets to stand on its own merits and can be stronger as a result.
I do wish they'd had more buffs in this specific patch, though. Some things are gonna be a bit weaker for a bit because of it.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915650#Comment_3915650
I don't kick gens. Don't have time for that. Mostly i get destroyed by survivors being really good at looping.
Ah, gotcha. Well, at least you have a good idea of what you need to improve there!
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@Hannacia said:
I took a 3 month break from the game and came back few weeks back. I don't really play killer in the new bloodmoon event because i dont hate myself enough to do that, but i've also noticed that generators go pretty fast in normal mode.
I don't play with 4 gen defenses so maybe its my fault, but i just find it boring. I normally have 1-2 gen defense and 1 chase and 1 aura or 2 aura perks. I just simply can't keep up with game speed anymore.
Sadly if survivors are even semi decent in this game playing for 12 hooks is not possible anymore. You can do that against survivors that arent good at looping and are lost in the sauce sure but good or decent survivors will destroy you.
I'm not sure how they will balance this.
Also i try to play as fair as possible in my games. Sadly survivors tend to tunnel themselfs by bodyblocking me when im trying to go after someone who unhooked.
Managing gen speeds isn't just about perks in the modern state of the game, a lot of it comes from having good fundamentals and being able to spread pressure effectively.
One of the things I notice a lot of killers struggle with is downtime between chases, IE, a lot of time spent either looking for a survivor or trying to kick gens or something. Maybe that's something you could look at?
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People misusing stats to try and prove arguments is probably why BHVR shouldn't release stats more frequently, as annoying as it is.
The stats are neat trivia and conversation starters, not hard evidence of balance or imbalance.
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@TunnelingIsNecessary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914969#Comment_3914969
Do you see the problem now? The immobile killers have little to no option to deal with it. Now you have to throw away your entire loadout for the inevitability of SWF bringing these combinations and come in hard with Breakouts and Duty of Care. And if you do, the generators will fly because you know the SWF are efficient and methodological, and you just threw away the few generator defense perks you had in your loadout.
Forced Penance won't do anything. If they get broken then what will the survivor do? Get on the generator.
Of course it won't do much to the likes of Nurse, but Wraith, Freddy or Doctor for example, what are they suppose to do in this type of situation?
I mean, no?
The "deal with it" is just, take a longer chase, it's not actually substantially different than if you'd chased someone who only had Overcome. It feels a little worse, but it's the same actual outcome.
You also don't have to use all those perks, Genetic Limits would cover you 100% if you're really worried about it.
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@TunnelingIsNecessary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914940#Comment_3914940
What can a killer do that has no instadown or mobility in their power?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914947#Comment_3914947
Everyone who use these survivor builds shall be cursed by Tombstone Michael Myers.
I mean, it depends on what you're asking here. Are you asking what you could do to prepare for this if you anticipate it becoming popular, or what you'd do to react to it?
Immobile killers have fewer options to react, they'd probably just continue chasing the bodyblocker. It's a longer chase, but at least that survivor is categorically and unavoidably both injured and Exhausted + spent time off gens to set up their play. Could be worse, but that's the most the combo can affect you.
If you want to prepare, you've got options. Genetic Limits hard counters Overcome iirc, and Languid Touch is also a good counter pick. STBFL + Rapid Brutality cuts down heavily on distance gained once hit, so that's an option. Anti-heal perks, especially Forced Penance, can be worth considering here as they prevent both perks from working. Exposed perks are obvious ones too, if your killer can make good use of them.
I'm not saying it won't be annoying, but I don't think it'll be game-ruining.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914941#Comment_3914941
Go after the bodyblocker is the counter
…What?
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@xGodSendDeath said:
Just don't tunnel! Boom, perk countered. Go apply pressure
Is anyone actually saying that about this perk? I feel like I've only seen people sarcastically invoking that phrase.
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I mean, they work differently because they're different perks with different intents…?
Forced Hesitation exists to punish grouping up. Duty of Care exists to take aggro for your teammates. It makes sense the second one would give the stronger effect, because the person using it doesn't get the effect, just the teammates they're trying to save.
Overcome could definitely make it an annoying build, but they'll run out of the ability to do it eventually, and both survivors involved will be injured. It's probably going to fit into the same vein as pretty much any aggressive-altruism combo, you just wait it out until they've exhausted their options. If you want to be proactive, then you've got more options than just Nurse and Blight too, obviously.
Breakout buff was uncalled for, though, that much I agree with.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914503#Comment_3914503
Object 100% doesn’t count. It gets you in trouble more often than helps. Doesn’t work in stealth killers or perks at all.
Healing perks can be but aren’t always. We’ll make it is not. Desperate measures is not. Self Care Is since it allows you to heal yourself without a team mate or item.
I'm just sort of stuck on what the purpose of the term is, if that's the definition.
If it covers for tools that range from worthless to top tier, it covers tools you'd use in a wide variety of different ways, and the tools it covers make up a noticeable majority… I don't see how you could use the term to make an informed criticism or complaint about the game, and I don't see what other reason there'd be to define a term like this, functionally speaking.
What's the point of even talking about "second chance perks" if the term is this broad and nebulous?
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914488#Comment_3914488
Nope you definitely can’t make that claim. Streetwise is 100% not a second chance perk. Object, Built to Last, Red Herring and so on. None of those can remotely be considered second chance perks.
If you’re in a chase Red Herring won’t save you. Built to Last won’t prevent you from going down, Object won’t prevent you from being hooked.
There is a very clear and obvious line on what is a 2nd chance perks and what’s not. It’s very simple really:
Sure, there's some perks that don't fit this mold, but again: Every healing perk and every stealth perk, as well as every chase perk, would fit this definition. It's broad enough to cover several entire archetypes of perks, which leads me to think it's probably not very constructive or useful.
Object would count, since it's a chase aura perk, as an aside.
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@Bodark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/443373/second-chance-perks-almost-dont-exist
A second chance perk is a perk that prevents a survivor from going down. Prevents a survivor from being hooked. Or corrects a survivors mistake.
DS is a second chance perk that can fulfill 2 criteria. Finess is a 2nd chance perk that can fulfill the last one. Dead Hard fulfills the first and the last. Unbreakable is a 2nd chance perk that fulfills the second and so on.
If I remember right. Survivors have around 30+ second chance perks and killer have 3-4.
Deadlock is a 2nd chance perk for gens imo. NOED and No Way Out are True second chance perks.
By that definition, couldn't you claim pretty much any perk is a second chance perk?
Broadly speaking, you can't really avoid that every single healing and stealth perk is also unavoidably a second chance perk by this definition, and at that point it just seems like an unhelpful definition. It doesn't have any coherent point, you might as well just refer to "useful perks" and you'd be encompassing basically the same group of tools.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3914330#Comment_3914330
I see you thought a lot about those.
The Overcharge rework could work, I'd maybe rather make it so the skill check pops up like it does in the live game.
Call of Brine is a tough one, since I'm not sure how could the aura even be buffed. But, if Overcharge ended up getting reworked as you suggested, I feel like CoB by itslef would be fine.
And, at last, Thana. I feel like Legion and Plague would benefit from it the most regardless of numbers, so... Your change could solve that, but I'm not really sure about it.
Anyway, thanks for feedback.
It'd be buffing the loud noise notifications you get from CoB, I'd imagine, not the aura itself. Make it last for longer + make it able to be applied to multiple gens, you've already got a pretty okay gen-monitoring perk that could be a reasonable sidegrade to something like Surveillance.
If you want to be really crazy, have it apply any time a gen starts to regress, and remove the extra speed entirely.
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The only real problem that exists with gen speeds right now is toolboxes, everything else is broadly fine. Players who stick on gens and maybe bring one or two perks to speed them up can be harder to beat, naturally, but not to the degree that it isn't realistically doable with smart play.
There's more to playing well as killer than fast chases, and it's that stuff that slows down the game for you, no perks even needed. With slowdown perks you've got more than enough heat available to keep pace with survivors.
Unless it's a toolbox squad. Those are broken, that needs fixing.
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Some of these are good changes for sure, but I would be wary about just buffing Thanataphobia, Call of Brine, and Overcharge.
Tackling the last two first since they're similar to each other, hard capping the regression speed to 200% with these perks is a good instinct, that'd prevent the most obscene imbalance that could come from them, but it doesn't change that these perks having actually good regression in their current state is unhealthy because they're unearned. It's just always going to be cheap and unfair, the killer doesn't have to do anything to get it.
Rather, I'd suggest buffing CoB's information instead so it can fill that niche better, and just reworking Overcharge entirely. A rework I pitched in another thread myself was something like the following:
- When a survivor is hooked, Overcharge activates for [X] seconds. While Overcharge is active, all regression speeds are increased to 200%, and survivors interacting with a generator for the first time during the activation are faced with a difficult skill check. Overcharge then goes on cooldown for [X] seconds.
That'd rework it to be far more useful, but also much healthier because it requires hooks. It'd also open up fun synergies with perks like Ruin (in its current state at least) and Oppression.
For Thanataphobia, stacking and also killers like Legion and Plague are the big concerns here. I would also suggest a rework for this perk, to hopefully make it a bit more stable. I'm much less sure on this one, but the same post I suggested Overcharge getting changed also had this rework for Thana:
- When a survivor is injured by a basic attack, their action speeds (same list as current) are decreased by 10% for 120 seconds or until they're fully healed.
Like I said, less sure about that one, but I think it's a healthier direction than the global effect it currently has.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
With your logic, survivors should be super happy if a killer camps their first hook, because it means 3 survivors are repairing generators uninterrupted. Because if the killer didn't camp, and found someone else to chase instead, that means less than 3 survivors would be repairing generators.
To be fair, broadly, yes.
At this point in the game camping is only an issue in solo queue where you can't trust your teammates to actually be doing those generators, if you can trust your teammates to be competent then camping is basically free gen repair.
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I could probably get behind that.
I don't know that it's the best way to address things, and certain things (like toolboxes) would still need to be adjusted on their own merits, but there's a similar justification to the Haste/Hindered change underlying potential hard caps too— it lets the devs design stronger tools individually for more varied synergies.
If something like this did happen… I could live with it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913124#Comment_3913124
So since some perks are multi-function, or they have different impacts based on certain things. What i'll do is go off a point system.
So if discord, or coms in general gives full access to the perk, that will be 1 point, if it only gives partial, i'll give it a fraction of a point based on that. So, for example something like kindred, would give a full point, because the survivor on the hook, can tell the team where the killer is, and knowing where your team at is something you could do. Whereas say, something like say, Blood pact, you get half the effect, in terms of aura reading, but you wouldn't get the haste from coms. So i'd say that's half a point.
I'll also explain my reasoning for each perk, then also at the end, we'll list some things that coms and coordination gives you that you can't get from perks.
So here we go.
- Aftercare
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading only
- Alert
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer while generally chasing another survivor, and tells you which pallets are being broken. Something your teammate could call out
- Any means necessary
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on dropped pallets, something you can call out to your team when you drop it and run away and the killer doesn't break it.
- Better together
- 1 Point
- Gives aura reading of which gen you are working on to your team, and gives you aura reading on your teammates
- Blast mine
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the blast mined gen, giving your location out to your team. But obviously not the effect of the mine itself
- Blood pact
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates but not the haste
- Bond
- 1 Point
- Gives aura reading on your team
- Boon: Circle of Healing
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates and gives general location of your current teammate when the boon is lit, but coms don't give the healing effect
- Breakdown
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer, but not the effect of the hook
- Buckle up
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer
- Chemical trap
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the pallet its on, giving you a rough location of your teammates and where someone is getting chased
- Clairvoyance
- 0.5 points
- While not at the start of the match, with coms you can find all this information out generally in the first 20-30 seconds of the match from all your teammates
- Corrective Action
- 0.5 points
- Aura reading on your teammates, but not the other part of the effect
- Counterforce
- 0.25 points
- Aura reading on totems, again not at the start of the match, but during the match you can call out totem spots pretty easily as you find them
- Dark sense
- 1 point
- Aura reading on the killer
- Deja vu
- 0.5 points
- Gives you locations of generators, easy to call out to the team, but not the repair speed bonus
- Detective's hunch
- 0.5 points
- Similar to above, not at the start of the match, but very quickly you can call these things out to your teammates
- Empathic connection
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates
- Empathy
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on your teammates
- Eyes of belmont
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out, and i'd argue extending the duration of auras isn't useful in this context because you basically have "aura" of everything anyway.
- Fogwise
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Hardened
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out, but does still suppress screams
- Inner focus
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out and scratch marks on teammates which is about finding your friends which is easy on coms
- Invocation: Treacherous Crows
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on killer and to your team
- Invocation: Weaving Spiders
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading to your team of where you are
- Kindred
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading of killer and teammates
- Lucky Star
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on teammates and generators nearby, but still does other stuff as well
- No one left behind
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading of other survivors
- Object of Obsession
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading of the killer, also i'd argue coms make OOO a significantly better perk because you can call out killer location to your team
- Open handed
- 1 point
- All about buffing aura reading
- Poised
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Premonition
- 1 point
- Gives killer location which is easy to call out
- Quick gambit
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading of teammates but still gives a faster gen speed
- Rookie spirit
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura of regressing gens which is easy to call out to your team, but its not all the time so only half a point here
- Scene Partner
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Small game
- 0.5 points
- Similar to detective's hunch
- Spine chill
- 0.5 points
- Gives location of killer, but doesn't give action speed bonus
- Still sight
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer and other stuff that is easy to call out
- Strength in shadows
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on killer that is easy to call out
- Troubleshooter
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer and of gens with progress which is super easy to call out
- Visionary
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on gens which is easy to call out
- Wake up
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on gates which is easy to call out as well as aura on teammates
- Wicked
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on killer which is easy to call out
- Windows of opportunity
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on where pallets are up which is easy to call out
- Wire tap
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on killer which is easy to call out.
So, if we add up all the whole pointers you get 19 points and if you add up all the fraction pointers you get 12.25. Which together is 31.25. There are 4 survivors, so i guess today its actually 125, so its doubled since the last time i did it.
Even if you want to exclude the fraction pointers, its still going to be 76 perks for free.
That's not to mention all of the coordination you can get that aren't in perk form, like coordinating who is going for pinhead's box, or coordinating a pallet or flashlight save right as the killer picks up a teammate, or calling in for a body block or various other things as well.
I think this list is extremely misguided, and has a lot of flaws.
First, it's generally a mistake to assume that SWF just have access to every aura perk regardless of context. Even before we factor in the important distinction between constant, passive info and the bursts of active information SWF actually get, some of these auras are obviously not ones SWF get for being on comms - something like Troubleshooter's killer aura, or Dark Sense/Wicked if you're being tunnelled/Object of Obsession in chase is info on the killer mid-chase, which your SWF teammates aren't going to be giving you. Realistically they're not even going to be looking at the killer in these circumstances, and even if they are, people can't communicate fast enough to make the kind of snap decisions you get from mid-chase auras actually doable, it doesn't work that way.
Additionally, some of these perks have an aura solely to facilitate their actual effect in solo queue, which means SWF doesn't get half a point for them. Blood Pact, Blast Mine, Any Means Necessary, and Circle of Healing are all perks in this vein - not only does SWF not get their effects for being on comms, SWF actually get more use out of them than solo queue by virtue of being on comms, making their inclusion on this list completely backwards. They don't get these perks for free, they want to use perk slots on these options MORE because of their comms.
Then a couple of these aren't even like that, the auras are just like… a bonus. Strength in Shadows is a healing perk, you don't get half its effect by being on comms, Counterforce is a totem breaking perk, and Breakdown is a hook-breaking perk- same deal. The auras are nice, and less potent in SWF, but they're almost irrelevant to this discussion. These perks just shouldn't be on the list, even with less than a full point, they aren't relevant.
Comms can be powerful, as can the info you could get from them, but that doesn't inherently render auras obsolete on SWF players and it definitely doesn't invalidate every perk that just has an aura, not even by half a point.
- Aftercare
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So far we have the Surrender option, the new quest system, and the perk preview mechanic.
I guess that means we'll be getting the rest of these things in the next update after this one? Or does the remaining time cover for two more updates?
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@Skillfulstone said:
It's concerning for the game as a whole to have such an approach to balance and this is beyond worrying for the future of perks in dbd.
Are they going to stop with haste or are they going to overall delete the very concept of perk synergy? Are we eventually going to only be allowed one Haste/Hinder perk, one gen regression/speed perk, one chase perk and one stealth perk? This would hurt build freedom a lot.
The kick limit already does a tiny bit of that since Eruption just can't be used with Surge if you don't want to accidentally hit the limit in record time and suddenly have a gen that you're basically forced to concede.
Even if they stopped there, it's still unhealthy, they're going to absolutely have to greatly buff these perks for those to be useful at all. By doing so Killers will essentially have easy access to large haste effects and while limited at one, it will still take only one perk slot. While Survivors will lose a whole niche kind of build, further reinforcing the "use only meta perks" trend and making the game more stale.
The fact that (presumably) perks wouldn't even stack with the various basekit Haste/Hinder that certain Killers have is even more limiting (I already hear Clown and Wraith crying in a corner, tons of add-ons invalidating perks and Wesker's infection officially being worthless with any Hinder perks) since that's an entire segment of a Killer's power that's made useless by a perk, why not play a stronger Killer and bring the same perk at that point? Killers shouldn't have part of their kit entirely invalidated by a category of perks, it's enough that some perks simply don't work together or can backfire.
A simple cap to Haste in order to avoid extreme situations where a Survivor can be faster than the Killer would be enough. And that would still allow buffs to Haste perks which are really weak (Dark Theory for example) and open the door to new perks without limiting perk options too much.
To be fair, there is TREMENDOUSLY more to perk synergy than the notion of stacking the same status effect multiple times. Even if limits were put in place for every effect, you'd still have perks that natively synergise with one another because their different effects work well together.
A gimmick build I enjoy a lot is Furtive Chase/Nemesis/BBQ/Lethal. That's native synergy that doesn't require stacking any one thing, but rather having four separate perks with their own effects (three of them show auras, but they don't trigger at the same time and they are the only thing being "stacked"), and it's the healthier kind of synergy to encourage over just making one number go as high as possible.
That's not to say they should apply this to more than Haste/Hindered, there's downsides to them even doing this, but I do think it's hyperbolic to the point of being unhelpful to immediately leap to "no more synergy". There's a gulf of many, many steps between this and that.
As an aside, "extreme case where the survivor moves faster than the killer" is the entire purpose of most Exhaustion perks, so I don't think a cap is the right call either here.
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910882#Comment_3910882
everytime someone says "distortion is still a good perk" never actually used the perk and is talking out of no experince.
its the euqevelant of me saying "skull merchant is good" after she has been nerfed to d-tier.
no offense. i played the perk, i almost never get value, i take chases and usually i get tunneled out or it doesnt trigger
even when i do get a chase and then they leave, i only got two stacks just for aura reading, so its not gonna be really enough against like the strong or spammy aura perks like nowhere to hide, bbq, darkness revealed, weave. and if they decide to do a full aura reading build then its basically worthless
i know you dont get scratchmarks when activated, but this is only useful in chase, meaning you either need to pair it up with something and then also time it outta nowhere
if you say "skill issue", like most usually do when they are called out on how bad distortion actually is,
then you arent really making a point on why its good and probably shouldnt talk about how good of a perk is, if you never used it or just think making a good chase is making the perk good. it doesnt.
point was, stuff gets overnerfed and people dont care, so why shouldnt people just result to the most broken stuff that most likely wont ever be nerfed like toolboxes and hyperfocus?
i dont mind if flashbang is nerfed, i quite frankly dont care since i dont use it at all.
but it just makes me question why people would want to continue using it when its probably not as effective as it used to be.I run Distortion quite consistently when I play survivor, and while it is - as before - sometimes a dead perk slot if there's no aura reading, it's pretty solid otherwise.
Consistent enough aura blocking to delay your next chase, info on what the killer has equipped, and even some extra chase value on occasion to try and break chase. That's a damn good perk from my perspective.
That also doesn't really address my point, which is that one perk doesn't make or break a playstyle, usually. If Distortion were bad, you'd just swap to other stealth perks. If Flashbangs are bad, you'd just swap to other methods of getting saves.
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I don't know, I've been enjoying it. There's not much different but what's there is neat, and the BP gains are nice.
Then again, I enjoyed Lights Out too, so maybe that just means our tastes are polar opposites, haha.