jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/441982/revert-readjust-flashbang-angle-savebangs
naw, survivors arent allowed to have variety or fun via different playstyles that SLIGHTLY displeases the killer in any way or shape of form
i mean, look at distortion being gutted and aura reading getting buffed, essentially killing stealth to the ground for survivors.
i honestly would prepare myself to play the most meta stuff imaginable every match just to send a message that, no, nerfing variety perks like distortion and flashbang, does not really help the game. AT ALL.I don't quite buy that argument. I mean, even if we were to assume flashbangs are dead in the water (which I'm on the fence about for now), that doesn't kill the playstyle of going for saves, it just means you don't use flashbangs for it.
Same for Distortion. Even if that perk were gutted (which I am not on the fence about; it's still a very good perk), that doesn't kill stealth. You just play for stealth with different tools, or in a different way.
What it actually feels like is that the devs don't want either side to have access to unfair tools within those playstyles, which seems more reasonable to me.
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More commonly a bad match for me still involves at least one hook.
Very occasionally it's none, and those tend to feel veeeeery bad lmao
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910230#Comment_3910230
I don't get how skull merchant 2.0 can be so despised but there's no commotion over Clown, who is basically the same thing.
The same thing but objectively worse, mind, because he lacks nearly as much counterplay, the gameplay involved is much less nuanced/interactive, and his power has a much lower skill ceiling.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910035#Comment_3910035
The point of pentimento is specifically to force the survivors to stop doing gens to do the secondary objective because it is more efficient to do so. What happens if that number is too low? I'd bet we hit a point where suvivors just don't both to cleanse it. The good teams already ignore plaything because then they'd know they have to deal with pentimento.
If it's below a certain point, yes, the perk won't be worth running.
However, that point isn't 30% flat. Anything high enough to make the slowdown legitimately noticeable is going to push survivors to go cleanse, which is itself more slowdown— and if it doesn't, you just get noticeably slower gens.
We have to know what the numbers are before we can form a conclusion here, they're too important to the perk's strength.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909665#Comment_3909665
Almost like hexes shold be stronger given that they can be cleansed. It still awful that they nerfed ruin the way they did.
Look at all the hex perks, the only one worth taking is devour and even then its really just RNG that can win you the game.
I can understand what you're saying, but cleansing Pentimento has to be done multiple times just to get rid of the extremely potent slowdown. The trade is SUPPOSED to be a powerful effect you cleanse ONCE to get rid of it, that's the basic idea of hexes.
I'm not saying that hexes don't need help because they absolutely do, but with the way Pentimento is currently designed, it's actually standing in the way of that. Hexes being improved from basically any angle with current Pentimento in the game just makes the already very powerful perk even stronger.
Making each cleanse more actually impactful (while still maintaining the timesink of multiple cleanses) and instead making multiple lit totems a focus instead of a safety net is a good first step to actually being able to safely buff hexes as a mechanic, hypothetically.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909697#Comment_3909697
It's worth just stating again that you get gen slowdown and healing slowdown from the first totem. The latter is not nearly as valuable as the former, but its not worthless.
My thoughts on possibilities
5% per totem - probably a dead perk
10% per totem - usable, but considerably weaker. If they added the recovery and gate slowdown the perk currently can potentially have, I'd say this number would be good.
15% per totem - Where I think it should be at. Not broken, not worthless.
20% per totem - Kind of impossible as this creates a hypothetical 100% slowdown (presuming that all of the totems are added together and then applied)
I actually hope, though don't expect, them to create some type of tier situation. The first is worth 12.5%, then 10% (22.5% total), and so on in decreasing values.
That's a good point, and worth bringing up- it definitely helps a bit.
I'd broadly agree with that rundown, too, I think 15% would probably be best but 10% would also be worthwhile.
It'd be most interesting if the gains per stack are uneven, so the starting the number can be a bit higher, like you say. I'm honestly getting more and more curious what the real numbers actually are, now, I want to see what they've done here.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909692#Comment_3909692
10% would make it one of the worst gen regression perks in the game. It would still be better than call of brine because being worse than that would be allmost impossible, but considering how awful hexes are in general right now…. Yikes. Pentimento must be ran with other hex perks makes your take of 10% particularly awful.
Not to be pedantic, but it's not a regression perk, it's a slowdown perk. Call of Brine is a regression perk (literally but not meaningfully, because it's numbers are so bad you'd only ever run it for its info), so you wouldn't compare them directly.
10% on a slowdown perk, as in, making the repair go slower, isn't that bad. My assumption is that the next totem gives a noticeable chunk too - and to be fair, it's also an assumption - so since getting to two stacks is pretty realistically doable, that'd mean the perk is still pretty usable.
Higher than 10% and it just starts out still strong, obviously. 10% is what I'd call the minimum for it to not be a dead perk. Just from idle speculation, obviously, I'd need to test it on the PTB either way.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909665#Comment_3909665
Thanks for confirming that continueing to talk to you on this subject is a waste of my time. 10%? Are you insane?
Real aggressive, man, it's pretty unpleasant.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909652#Comment_3909652
thats the way they made it sound. You will need 5 stacks to get the full effect and even at 30% it isnt nuts. The only reason it is used is that every other viable option was nerfed into the dirt and at least this particular hex can be kept up for most of a match.
We don't actually know how this scales, so it's premature to say that it's dead in the water.
30% is a nuts number, by the way, that's almost the largest amount of % slowdown you can get from a single perk. You don't need the 30% for it to be worth running, it being 30% is just what makes it incredibly strong.
Personally, I would say it starting at or above 10% would maintain it being useful. Any higher than that for the first stack and the perk's just still flat out good.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909343#Comment_3909343
It's dead, Jim. You arent ever getting 5 stacks of pentimento. Never. It's one of the hardest things you can try to do as killer.
Well, the obvious question there is, why are you assuming you'll need to get 5 stacks of Pentimento?
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909574#Comment_3909574
Base regression is a complete joke, 0.25 c/s, takes 4 seconds to remove 1 second off a gen. At high level play, ain't nobody missing that skill check. So the perk effectively does nothing other than start regression which is already garbage, but only if they aren't working a gen. Which, again, at high level, they will be.
Base regression should definitely be higher but it's not nothing, and as I said- Oppression is most useful for pairing with Surveillance for info anyway.
I would not personally count Oppression on the list of legitimately useful slowdown perks, I just wanted to point out that it doesn't trigger the regression events system. It's fine, but not in ways where it's relevant to this conversation overall.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909502#Comment_3909502
Pain res isn't too great because you can literally get little to no value for the limited tokens. For example, if someone completes a gen just as you hook, the next generation could have very little progress if any which wastes the token. Also, smart survivors just do a decoy gen in the corner of the map to eat up all PR hits as a hard counter.
Dead man's grip is pretty good despite it getting a big nerf the to PR existing, but it's not a regression perk.
Grim Embrace i honestly don't like as it's annoying to go up against, but in general it's fine. Also not a regression perk.
Surge is okay as is, but it's major problem is that it was changed awhile back to have no cooldown since it hitting multiple times is on survivors making mistakes...but with the 8 regression limit, now this backfires on the perk. If survivors make a mistake and double or even triple up on downs in an area (especially through perks to instantly pick people up off the ground and so on), surge can cause multiple gens at once to hit the 8 limit VERY early in a match. I've had a gen lose 3 of it's 8 tokens within 20 seconds before....thats 3 gens with almost half of their tokens gone already!
Deadlock is fine as is, but again, not a regression perk.
Corrupt intervention.fine as is, and its a dead perk for the rest of the match. Also isn't a regression perk.
Eruption - would be fine, but this has a double penalty towards the 8 regression limit. A single trigger of this eats up 2 of the 8 allotted regressions for the match. This essentially means running Eruption will make it impossible to regress gens by the end of the match where gen control is more vital. Effectively a dead perk.
Call of brine is entirely useless. At full power, it reduces a gen by 4 or so seconds. Dead perk when it comes to regression
Overcharge for regression is also incredibly low. Realistically, the only regression it actually does is if survivors are bad at skill checks and does absolutely nothing if survivors are at least half decent at the game. It's nice for a first surprise, but once survivors know you run it, it's a non issue for them.
Oppression is essentially a dead perk due to the 8 regression limit. You'll hit your 8 max before you know it.
Oppression doesn't directly damage the generators it starts to regress (other than the one you kicked obviously) so it doesn't trigger regression events. With the vastly lowered cooldown it received a while ago, it's a not terrible perk, especially when combined with Surveillance.
It's not great, but it's workable.
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@Dadeordye said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909343#Comment_3909343
For me the big issue is the aura reading.
WHY?!
Now Pentimento will only be useful on TP or dash killers and you HAVE to bring something that will lit all totems and then go 0 to 5 in one go because if you don't survs will see the aura of the lit totems and cleanse/only viable way now is to get all 5 for the block effect.That part I am a bit more wary of, yeah. The rest of the changes sound pretty reasonable depending on the numbers, but the aura reading might be a touch too far.
Something to look at on the PTB for sure. It could be that the range on that aura reading is pretty small, too.
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I think it's premature to claim Pentimento's dead in the water before we've even seen what its new numbers are. There are definitely numbers it could have that'd make it worth running, especially since you're inherently pairing it with other hexes.
Overall, the state of killer perk variety is doing pretty well, and a lot of tools that get nerfed are still completely worth bringing if you're not expecting them to be big central cornerstones of your build. Pain Res, Grim Embrace, and DMS may be those and can stand on that pedestal, but perks like Deadlock, Eruption, Surge, Gift of Pain, and a couple more complement basekit pressure and slowdown perfectly fine.
That's obviously just slowdown, too, plenty of viable non-slowdown perks exist. Outside the scope of this change, but worth remembering.
Not to say nothing could improve, of course, just that I think the current state of things is being overblown here.
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@Mazoobi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909186#Comment_3909186
Seeing Dark Theory get indirectly nerfed because of this change sucks since I consider it the funnest boon.
It has "safe" values because of its potential to stack with other perks (and working for other survivors), so I hope the devs consider making it on par with other haste perks if they decide to roll with this change onto the live servers.
I don't see a world where the devs say they're adjusting some perks based on no longer being able to stack them and Dark Theory isn't on the list, personally. I have to imagine it's one of the perks they're buffing to compensate for this change.
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I would assume not. The way I'm reading this change is that base number increases won't be affected, but if you are affected by two sources of Haste at once, only the higher applies.
So, Clown's addon that just raises what the percentage of his base Haste increase is will work. I'm also assuming that Hag's addon that makes her move faster by default will probably also still stack with up to one other Haste source? That's something I want to test, personally.
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I'm glad to hear the old archive challenges aren't going anywhere and will still be accessible. They're a fun self-directed goal, and they're also a good source of BP that contributes to the grind not really being a problem anymore. Good to hear, assuaged my concerns about the new system instantly.
I'm curious about the Haste/Hindered change. On the one hand I feel this wasn't a problem at all currently, this only would've been an actively good change back when MFT was released, but on the other… if the buffs done to the affected perks are done properly, it could be a much healthier direction overall since some tools are mostly useless without stacking but also can't be buffed because of stacking— most notably Dark Theory. I'll reserve judgement until I see more, I think.
Everything else seems fine, nice to see Pentimento being streamlined and weakened. This way maybe it won't be the elephant in the room preventing any buffs to the hex mechanic.
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TL;DR: Neat idea, needs iteration.
There's stuff I like about this system. I've always been wary about the idea of putting a system like this in the game because I don't think it'd be nearly as good as people think it would, but this is a smart way of doing- both because it's only in an event mode, and because they didn't hard replace every gen with the blood generators. That adds an interesting layer of variety to how you're tackling your objective within a trial, because some of your tools will be good for dealing with regular generators, and new tools (many of which most wouldn't consider much otherwise, like Fixated) are good for dealing with blood generators.
In a similar vein (pun fully intended), I think it's smart not to allow slowdown or direct-progression perks to work on blood gens. Where I think we come up against issues is that blood gen completion doesn't count as gen completion either, so killers like Pig don't get to use their power nearly as much, and some other non-slowdown tools like Fire Up or Coup de Grace don't get to function as much either.
This isn't a tremendous deal right now because real generators still need to be finished, but it's the big, underlined, bolded feedback I'd give for next time: There's no positives to not letting these things work. Rule of thumb, the completion of a blood gen should count for any "when a generator is completed, X" tool. Even Deadlock- just only have it target real generators, and we're golden.
I also think that the blood stations can be a bit hard to find sometimes, and I think that would've been the perfect thing to put on this event's offering, since it only gives bloodpoints at the moment with no additional effect. Showing the aura of blood stations within a certain radius would be completely appropriate here, I think.
Overall though I like these blood gens. The animations are satisfying, the gameplay is interesting, and I've been enjoying interacting with them on both sides. They'd probably get old if they were in every trial, so probably for the best to restrict them to events, but I could see them in events more frequent than just once a year.
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?
Do you mean unhooking with StB doesn't activate WMI?
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Oh yeah, absolutely.
Don't get me wrong, there's still fumbles and bad decisions, but updates happen both more frequently and with higher quality than when I started playing about five years ago. Go back further than that and it's only worse, so I'd say they've definitely improved.
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You actually can do this!
If you're queued up as one killer, you can swap to another killer while queued to spend BP on them. When you enter the lobby, you'll be the killer you queued as.
To my knowledge, you can't swap from killer to survivor, though. It also doesn't really work on survivors, since there's no separate queue- you're just queued as survivor and you enter the lobby with whoever you're currently on. You can also swap them in the lobby, though, so that's not a problem.
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@brewingtea said:
Why would I gamble my BP and go over 2M if there's a chance they'll lower the cap again and screw me?
You can already go over the cap and those BPs aren't taken away from you. I see no reason to think it'd work otherwise if they choose to lower the cap again, you'd just be over the 2m cap and not be able to earn BP until you've spent the excess.
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@HeyBlakee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907112#Comment_3907112
Was wall bangs unintended though? The blind angle for firecrackers has been 90 degrees since they were added into the game.
Also the mechanics of flashlights and flashbangs are incomparable. They are two separate items with entirely different mechanics and timings behind them.
I didnt want this post to be twice as long as it should be so I kept this barebones and only relating to the pure mechanics of the bangs rather than diving into every single problematic situation or perk combo. We’d be here forever if we did that.
flashlight saves have a gradual buildup to the blind where the beam needs to cover the face. Bangs have a 2 second delay before being an instant blind, there is no build up.
lockers received blind immunity because once streamers started abusing double lockers with them, their viewers wanted to be like the streamer sitting in two side by side lockers for an hour, forcing killers to open one, while the other flashlight saves and hops right back in abusing perks like streetwise and built to last for more charges. One god beam gave about 22 grasp rescues before applying perk buffs. This was an unhealthy mechanic and was a valid nerfThis is why locker flashbangs work but not flashlights. Because flashbangs are instant after the 2 seconds is over. Youre blinding the killer instantly on the first few frames that they have control of their character. This type of save has no buffer to it. Its not handed to you for free. If you read the mechanics section, it explains the factors that affect the timing.
For example, lets say we are playing at 60 fps
A locker pull animation is 5 seconds
5 x 60 = 300 frames
The bang would need to be thrown at Frame 181 to blind at frame 301 IF we assume the ping on both sides is 0ms
However, in real games this is not the case. There is ping on both sides so you need to adjust your timing for varying amounts of ping on both survivor and killer side which is where skill expression comes into play. It requires a lot of game knowledge and experience with hitting these saves on different amounts of ping.
However, this is an issue as well. The time between when the player presses the input to throw the bang and the frame that the bang explodes is not consistent. It should be 120 frames (at 60fps) however, it varies inconsistently. Making frame perfect saves with the new blind angle pure LUCK.
As for wall saves, I am all for these being gutted ONCE they fix the other issues with bangs being inconsistent. Besides, wall bangs are only problematic because of background player. If there is no BGP in play, then its 100% a misplay on the killers behalf because the surv has to be within about 3 meters of the killer to actually throw the bang in time because they have to be there at the BEGINNING of the animation, not like flashlights where you have to blind towards the END of the animation. Its far riskier to have a bang.Background player is problematic even without bangs. It just needs to be reworked entirely.
Also another for wall bangs. Its a flat 90 degree angle to the left and the right of the killer camera. If you chase someone off who is close, just make them run a few steps, go back to your slug, and just ever so slightly turn your cam the opposite direction of where the surv was last seen, I promise you they wont get the save. They simply wont have time and thats why im trying to say its a misplay on the killers behalf unless exhaustion is in play.
As I said though, we’d be here all day if we try to yap about perk combos that are broken. It makes zero sense to nerf flashbang instead of the perks that are actually the issue such as BGP.
Flashlights and Flashbangs are extremely, directly comparable. They do the same job (blinding the killer), in mostly the same scenarios.
Something like Blast Mine would be incomparable because of how it works, but flashlights and flashbangs approach the same idea with mechanical variance, not approaching different ideas with one shared effect (as Blast Mine does). With this being the case, the notion that they shouldn't have the same counterplay is one that, at the very least, needs very thorough argumentation in support of it.
Wall saves are just antithetical to the way blind saves are supposed to work. You're supposed to be able to fool them with the right positioning, by looking at a wall; this leaves players who want to try for flashlight saves needing to either capitalise on killers who have the wrong positioning, or needing to strategise with their teammates where appropriate to try and have them go down too far from a wall for the killer to fool it. This is already a healthy, skill expressive element of the game, and it only works because looking at a wall is supposed to fool blind saves. If a killer can have the right positioning and still lose the hook because they didn't know flashbangs were in the game and suddenly the central bedrock of the positioning game requires different approaches, that hints to a problem. Bare minimum, assuming everything you say is taken completely on board and accepted, the killer is expected to lose to flashbangs once regardless of how they play. I don't think that's fair, healthy, or interactive.
As for locker saves, I'll absolutely grant you they aren't easy. That doesn't really mean as much as you think when it comes to whether they should be in the game, though. Once you've reached the point where you can do it consistently, all it takes is a single other person to be on comms with you and strategising one or two extra perk picks for the killer to have very little ways to respond.
Basically, you're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place here, in terms of argumentation. Because locker saves are either very inconsistent without coordination/synergies, or they're unfair with coordination/synergies… they're kind of just unhealthy, period. It's not a problem for them to be patched out, even if they might be fun to try for occasionally.
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While it is possible that flashbangs have been adjusted too far when it comes to the blind radius - I haven't really played around with them much to check post-update - I find these stated reasons for why to be deeply unconvincing.
Of the three main points listed here, two of them are just talking about an unfair scenario being patched out, those being locker saves and "wall bang" saves.
I'm genuinely surprised to learn there isn't immunity for flashbang saves when grabbing someone out of a locker when there is for flashlight saves. I can't imagine why one would be okay and not the other, considering both require timing and positioning. If one's unfair, both are, and one most certainly is unfair.
When it comes to "wall bang" saves, there's really no justifying this. Staring at a wall is supposed to be the counterplay to blinding saves, and there's no excuse for flashbangs removing that. As you state here, if looking at a wall isn't counterplay, the killer would be forced to chase survivors lingering around for the save away, which is playing into their hands; many, many tools exist to make that a flat out cancelled hook, depending on the level of team play.
On top of that, what is being communicated with that argument is effectively "if flashbangs are in play, you WILL lose one down to them before you can start countering them, because you can't rely on the standard counterplay against them". If a killer can't just look at a wall, the obvious counterplay, and they haven't literally seen the survivor carrying the flashbang, they have no reasonable way of knowing that they need to counter flashbangs. It's giving the perk guaranteed value against all but the most paranoid of players.
Obviously, if you are staring directly at a wall, you shouldn't be blinded. That's pretty straightforward.
If the only effects of these changes is the removal of those two situations (and I am, as stated, open to the possibility that it's not, there may be more legitimate problems with how flashbangs are currently), then that hardly kills the perk. You can still get regular saves on out of position killers with it, you can still drop one as you round a corner in chase to take the killer off guard, you can still drop them at pallets, you still have all the standard utility of this perk. It doesn't need to be immune to counterplay to be worthwhile.
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The current effect it has isn't bad, it's generally fairly useful for throwing off people's flashlight timings in some circumstances, but I agree the perk is just missing a little extra something to make it feel more worthwhile.
I don't think the current effect needs a buff, that probably would have pretty diminishing returns, but some extra effect would be pretty appropriate. What that could be, though, I genuinely don't know. Anything on-theme for saving time would either have too much overlap with other tools, like the break action or vault speed, or would be too strong on its face, like weapon wipe animation.
Maybe lean into the "entwined" theme and give it some effect (Scream, Oblivious, something minor, definitely not Hindered or anything like that) for survivors moving a certain distance away from you in chase…? That might be too overbearing as well, though.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905818#Comment_3905818
You were right by saying I want to increase head pops, which is basically my reason behind everything and no I don’t think it would be something bad to make them stronger. Only thing they’d need to fix is following a survivor around.
I don’t know why you ask about the first suggestion since 10 seconds less trap timer gives survivors less time → increase head pop chances.
Huntress lullaby working with boxes would make those skill checks silent or make the sound play later, which makes survivors miss more often and therefore combined with those two addons, which I want to merge, survivors would have to mend first or get injured easier. In the end survivors who mess those skill checks up would die more likely. If I’m not wrong missing skill checks resets your progress on boxes.
The box logic changes I’m suggesting would be either hit or miss. It allows to have 4 survivors with 4 searches or 4 survivors with 1 search. I like the luck component more than the rng behind it.
I’d be fine with crouching faster, but if it comes with a trap nerf again. No thank you!!! Her identity are the tarps, making them just slowdown and her another dash anti loop killer is boring. It was already a huge disappointment that they removed the box auras.
A nerf against screaming builds I would suggest is, that the traps progress decays over time instead of resetting it to cero.
RBTs aren't meant to be giving reliable kills, and nor should they be, that'd be miserable to play against. The purpose of the RBTs is to force survivors to spend time running between boxes to avoid that death- that tradeoff doesn't work if they can slow the game down tremendously and potentially die for it.
The RBTs are her identity, and that identity is slowdown, not kills that avoid the hook mechanic. Her slowdown is completely unparalleled, it's her biggest strength- which is why it's better than the search logic was equalised a little, because previously, all four survivors getting their traps off on the first search basically neutered her biggest strength.
The purpose of buffing her movement speed would be to make her more stealthy, though, to be clear. I don't want to lean too hard into Ambush either, we need more killers whose strengths aren't some kind of dash or projectile.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905726#Comment_3905726
- 10 seconds les on the timer
- Rule set number two basekit
- Something that is a nerf and buff at the same time:
- Survivors have a physical key they need to find in one of the boxes (like before it got changed), but we have five boxes like now and the 4th guarantees the key.
- Two trap addons merged: The one that injures you and makes skill checks smaller with the one that makes you deep wounded
- Huntress lullaby works with the boxes
That’s all I want for pig, but I would be happy enough with just huntress lullaby working.
What are your thoughts?
What's the thought process behind the first and last suggestions, there? The only result I could really see coming from those changes is that head pops become more likely, which obviously isn't a great outcome in the least.
I could get behind Ruleset No. 2 being basekit, though I'm not sure how punishing that'd be against newer or less coordinated players. Maybe not a hard reason not to do it, but something to be concerned with.
The addon change sounds fine ofc, those addons aren't really worth running right now. Unsure about the box logic changes, that kinda sounds like it might be worse for Pig overall, I like the buff they gave box logic a while back. I think that part works pretty much perfectly right now, I don't see the downsides to it at all- what's the issue you'd be trying to fix there?
Plus, as I mentioned, I think Pig should move faster while crouched. She already can't attack without either standing up or charging a telegraphed dash, so I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to move around the map at normal speed while crouched.
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@Langweilig said:
Buff
Sadako: The things I suggested in my discussion
Trapper: Smaller terror radius (24-28m), Traps spawn armed and at windows/ pallets, can carry 4 traps and placing traps becomes a lot faster
Pig: Trap buffs
Nerfs
Nurse: Shorter lundge or longer token recharge
Wraith: Light burn reintroduced
Clown
Out of curiosity, what exactly about Pig's traps would you buff? They're in a pretty damn good spot at the moment, I can't see what you'd be able to buff without it becoming unhealthy.
I've always thought Pig's crouched movement speed is the only thing left that's really undertuned in her kit, so I'd lean towards buffing that, personally.
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I disagree, I don't think there's actually a problem with gen times at all.
If we're to filter out the people who think gens fly because they're just not very good at pressuring survivors (as that's an unfair assumption to make of anyone having a serious conversation), we're left with only two possible reasons that generators could be going very quickly;
1: Survivors all spawned spread out and immediately started doing gens, which combined with anything other than an unreliably fantastic first chase means the early gen repair is tremendously difficult to overcome
2: Anywhere from one to all four of the survivors has a good toolbox, especially if combined with supporting perks. This doesn't even really need to be a full genrush squad (though those are unbelievably unbalanced), just one person with the right build for that can do crazy amounts of gen repair
The first option is already on the roadmap to be fixed, so that just leaves toolboxes. It's tempting in this conversation to say "progression tools", but I firmly believe it is very specifically toolboxes. If a survivor stacks the strongest perks for gen progression numbers - let's say, Resilience for 9%, Overzealous post-activation for 10%, Deja Vu for 6%, then their fourth perk is a boon for Overzealous - then their combined repair speed is 25%, literally half of a toolbox, after spending time activating their perks and only while injured and on specific generators.
This, in my opinion, is not problematic. It's difficult to maintain and takes their entire build, which justifies it being pretty good, but it's not overwhelming. Toolboxes are where things get really nuts.
So, in summation… if there's an issue with gen speeds, nerf toolboxes.
Also, separately, slowdown shouldn't be as stackable as it is. It'd be easier to balance if you can be sure killers only have one of each type of slowdown in their build, so each of those can be made individually stronger. You already don't really need slowdown, just one of each type (instant regression, blocking, repair speed debuff, etc) would absolutely be enough, especially if each one is stronger.
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Broadly you're gonna want some info and some high-impact altruism. I'd probably suggest…
Kindred, for knowing who's going for saves and for where the killer's going after a hook
Deja Vu, so you can avoid 3-genning the team accidentally
Babysitter, so you can make tunnelling your teammates less likely and go intercept the killer if you want
Then probably a flex pick- a basic chase perk to be a bit better when the killer's attention is on you, or something like Botany Knowledge to heal people up quicker, that kind of thing.
There's a couple generally good team-based perks out there that are usable in solo queue, as well. Quick Gambit lets you avoid running the killer to gens in progress, Corrective Action is good for minimising your teammate's mistakes, Circle of Healing can give the whole team halved healing speeds hypothetically (harder to use in solo queue, but doable), Empathetic Connection lets you be a team healer relatively efficiently, and so on.
Killer aura reads like Alert can keep you in the loop enough to go wade into things when necessary, as well.
Lots of good options!
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The incentive is higher on survivor BECAUSE the wait is longer on killer.
There's a very long wait because a new killer with a popular power just released, so a lot more people want to play killer right now. Anyone queuing for survivor will find one of those many killers very quickly, meaning the other killers have to wait longer.
The incentive is to try and coax some more people into playing survivor so the ratio isn't as unbalanced and everyone can find matches quicker.
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Are many maps actually getting that smaller? I can only think of three that got shrunk in the last couple years, so maybe I'm just missing the ones that shrunk otherwise.
Of those three, as well, only really one is a problem. Mother's Dwelling got shrunk but I think we can all agree that was an unreasonable outlier to begin with, Eyrie technically got a little smaller but not by a particularly substantial amount, and Haddonfield did shrink to a noticeably detrimental size.
That's more of a Haddonfield specific issue rather than a game-wide issue, though, so am I missing other maps that got smaller?
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904953#Comment_3904953
Look, this can be said for some perks…
But you can't say to me that No Quarter or Forever Entwined or Hex: Nothing But Misery or the god-awful Invocation: treacherous Crows are good perks and don't need a change.
I think that list highlights an interesting issue with perk discourse on the forums, where everyone tries to push perks into a hard binary between "very good" and "outright useless".
The perks you've listed, though, fall into the place most perks fall, which is in between those two extremes. They're perks with genuinely strong and useful effects, but they're held back by something - Forever Entwined just needs a little extra to feel like a full perk, Nothing But Misery just needs to activate a little faster, and Treacherous Crows needs to be more consistent + needs the Invocation framework to be a liiiittle less punishing. With those changes made, there'd be nothing wrong with these perks… and because of that, outside of TC, they're not even that bad right now.
(This doesn't apply to No Quarter, that just is a good perk that isn't really held back by anything, not sure why it's on the list.)
This veers closer to the person you're responding to's main point more than OP's. Most perks are actually worth using and it's only holding everything to the standard of top-tier meta perks that makes them look useless- a perk can simultaneously be usable + worthwhile and still need changes to reach their full potential, which is where most perks are. Most new characters release with overall pretty good perk spreads and at least one genuinely good perk, with only a few narrow exceptions.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903164#Comment_3903164
if this was true then you try and play a lower tier killer (for example hag) on badham eyrie swamp garden of joy against same level survivors. (you might get noob lobbies but i for sure dont)
Would that little experiment not just prove that those maps are unbalanced? In order to make the point you want to here, wouldn't you have to pick a neutral map to show that the killer needs slowdown?
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I'd say so, yeah.
It can feel like it couldn't possibly be the most balanced the game's ever been when you're in the middle of experiencing one of the balance problems that currently exists, but when I step back and remember the state of the game when I joined about five years ago… yeah, this is way more balanced.
From the killer end, post-6.1.0 I don't need to run slowdown like I used to (though admittedly that might've just been me being newer and not the perks actually being necessary), I never have to deal with Dead Hard ever again (that alone makes it more balanced tbh), Hatch isn't a screw-you button for survivors, many of the killers I actually enjoy playing have been buffed (albeit not all of them), self healing isn't wildly overpowered anymore… the things that exist now are annoying, sure, and there's stuff I really want addressed, but it's a lot better.
From the survivor end, too, there's more than you might think. The action HUD means I don't have Kindred insta-locked in every build, steady perk buffs and new releases have given me more variety in tools than ever, basekit Endurance means I'm never put in the situation where the killer downs me immediately as my feet touch the ground, Blight + Nurse + Spirit have had their most obnoxious stuff toned down… It's less, but I joined when the game was pretty horrendously survivor sided, so you'd expect that. It's still enough for me to feel that the base experience has improved, even if stuff like the go-next epidemic are an obstacle to me actually enjoying it.
Problems exist, absolutely, but the sheer amount of things that've improved over the years is enough for me to feel confident that it's more balanced now than it's ever been in the past.
Of course, balanced doesn't necessarily mean healthy, but it's a good step in that direction most of the time.
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To be fair, you're not being forced to play any match you don't want to. You're still going to be able to leave matches early after this "go next prevention" system goes live.
It's just that if you do, you won't have ways of avoiding the penalty. Seems fair enough to me, you had good cause to leave so you'll take the thirty second penalty and move on. It'll only affect you negatively if you're the kind of person to leave a lot of matches in a play session.
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@WolfePhD said:
Hag and Trapper are not very popular to play. Several streamers are on record having a “No Hag” policy. If you were a company, and you wanted to sell new content, would you make a killer for a niche, minority audience?
I think the M1 killers need a specific buff, like basekit corrupt intervention, for your request to be viable.
If I were in charge of a company in this hypothetical, I would make content for a niche audience… just less of it.
More diversity is only a good thing once you've already got a solid stable of the popular stuff, which DBD undeniably has. The people who like M2 dash/projectile killers are very well served, the people who prefer the alternatives aren't. You've already got the first group, it's smart to try and pull in the second as well; they aren't mutually exclusive at all. You can have both.
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I think, ultimately, BHVR have to just let whatever her next iteration is be her last. Give it balance updates like any other killer, obviously, but if reworking her from the ground up to fix every issue she has doesn't work the second time it's clear that the community's opinion on her can't be swayed through changes.
Because of that, it's especially imperative that they not go through with the destruction of her core identity like the design preview would do. Can you imagine if they went through with it, effectively deleted SM from the game, and people still hated her? The risk's far too high, in my opinion.
Her next rework can simplify her, that's workable. It can shift her power away from exerting pressure over loops, that can work. I don't mind her being more straightforward and I don't mind her getting some kind of out-of-chase ultimate ability or some such. She just obviously needs to stay true to her identity, and they need to stop trying to cater to people who hate her if it doesn't work this time. Let her fade into obscurity as a killer people broadly don't like if that's the result of this next rework, that's better than her continuing to eat up time and resources that could be spent elsewhere.
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I think this premise definitely has legs, and it's one of the things about the new player experience that I think could be improved, but I'm not sure I agree with your specific list of perks.
Overcome is not a training wheels perk at all, it's just a strong perk that could arguably be useful for learning the game, but the other three definitely are so I'll mostly focus on them. Hypothetically if we wanted an actual training wheels perk for the fourth slot, I'd probably highlight Kindred, Alert, or Rookie Spirit for killer tracking instead.
For the overall point, though, I want to raise a potential alternative to see how you feel about it. Instead of the mildly convoluted route of giving players limited access to yellow-rarity teachable perks (which, to be fair, does have its upsides too, like teaching people about the teachable system directly), would it not be much more streamlined to give similar-but-not-identical effects to existing/new universal perks and prompt players with a preset loadout of those?
That would probably be a lot easier to set up and more intuitive for newer players, since it's fairly obviously just the game giving you a suggestion combo for things you already have access to. If we tweak the current systems of the game to give every new survivor the tier 1 version of all universal perks by default, it also pushes new players into learning about perk tiers because their preset build gains in power as they level up their character.
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Whether it's a buff or a nerf in a strict strength-levels sense depends very heavily on how easy it is to get hits with controlled drones. If it's reliable, it's absolutely a buff, it makes her able to force health states in a way current SM couldn't even dream of. If it's not reliable, it's a nerf, because it leaves her effectively powerless in chase like she was with the original incarnation power.
It's a terrible idea regardless of if it's a buff, obviously, but putting this power in comparison to pre-nerf SM (as obviously any working power is a buff over current SM) without attaching it to her specifically depends heavily on the context we don't have in this design preview.
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I'm surprised by how many people are saying Kindred. I didn't think that perk had that much sway anymore.
My picks would be…
Survivor: Sprint Burst. It's unconditional, has potentially extreme impact, and only a handful of killers can hope to contest it (by which I mean lower its value, I'm not saying the perk's overpowered or anything). Something like DS or STB requires the killer to tunnel, SB doesn't care how they play.
Killer: Pain Resonance. Slowdown is among the most powerful archetype of perk to bring (tied with information), and Pain Res is very potent slowdown gained essentially for free, it only requires hooking on specific hooks - otherwise it just activates passively off normal gameplay. For the same reason, Grim Embrace is another pick you could put in top spot here.
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Having spent a little more time thinking about this design preview and dissecting the principles behind it, I wanted to give some more detailed feedback than my first post.
To me, it seems like the goal with Skull Merchant is the following:
- Streamline her power to something simpler (the design preview says "more intuitive", but what's actually conveyed is changing the power to something literally simpler, not just something easier to understand)
- Shift the power of drones away from passive traps and towards actively-controlled value
- Shift SM's power so the bulk of her major value isn't purely chase focused anymore, via the Global Detection Power
I obviously have my misgivings about these principles, but I'm going to be taking them as absolutely necessary for the sake of my feedback here.
I made an in-depth suggestion here, but I wanted to highlight a few of the specific intents behind what I suggested:
- My suggestion involves streamlining the effect of drones' beams to just Hindered, making it inherently easier to understand, as well as changing the application of it from any scan to an active power-up where Skull Merchant "electrifies" the beams for a short duration. This also makes the power easier to intuit- the blue (or however it's conveyed) beams and the Claw Traps make you move slower, so avoid those two things. It's much more like Clown in that regard (albeit with actual potent counterplay, lol).
- As my suggestion also involves the Hindered only coming from an active power-up (or from Claw Trap application), it also allows for Skull Merchant only getting chase value with some kind of active effort. This also shifts her mid-chase counterplay to something more in line with killers like Huntress- a single, high-octane dodge instead of consistent positioning. This should hopefully be more enjoyable for survivor players.
- By contrast, giving her a Nightfall-esque special mode (as pitched in the dev's design too) allows her to gain more of an edge without overloading survivors in chase with many things to keep track of, and preserves her focus as an intel-and-stealth killer. This should always be her focus, that's who she is as a character and there are a myriad of ways of achieving that even with a full rework.
Ultimately, despite how many people will call for her being deleted outright with seemingly full sincerity, maintaining who Skull Merchant is should be a priority with any rework. It's not actually a problem for her not to be the most popular kind of killer, it's okay to have killers that serve more niche archetypes. If the problems with her are that she needs a simpler but also more actively-controlled power, there's no reason that fixing those problems should necessitate moving away from her core identity.
The most important things to maintain for that identity, to me, would be the stealth and info. If she can't be a pure trap killer anymore, that's a blow but it can be mitigated by keeping the rest of her identity intact. Obviously my pitch isn't the only way to do this (and I'm under no illusion getting my idea specifically in the game is realistic lmao), but I wanted to convey what I felt was most important about my suggestion and why I feel it would be better than the design preview here.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901085#Comment_3901085
Then just say that you dont like the mechanic, dont compare it to something that has probably 15 differences to its 1 similarity.
Thats not how comparisons work.
If you need any more proof how silly it is, you are also defending people saying its likeTwins and Houndmaster
Equally silly is saying Twins, Houndmasters power are anything alike.
Twins and Houndmaster do have a similarity. They, like Pinhead, control their power directly and separate from the killer model to launch it at survivors.
That doesn't mean they play the same. It means they have a similarity. Not many killers actually work like that, it's not exactly a common similarity across the cast.
Even without the dashing part, I think the only other killer to control their power separate to themselves like that is… Singularity, right?
It's a meaningful criticism to say "This change makes Skull Merchant too similar to these other killers by shifting the main value of her power towards this style of mechanic". That's all people are saying.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901081#Comment_3901081
Yea you're doing exaclty what I just said
"Oh remote control and shoot, they must be the same"
Like no man.
Theres more to both powers.
You are basically saying a whale and I are the same thing, we both use oxygen to breatheYes, there is more to both powers. There is also, in this design preview, a similarity that does not currently exist on live servers.
That's what people are criticising. They BOTH have this feature in the design preview. People do not like the idea of Skull Merchant having that similarity to that power.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901077#Comment_3901077
Okay you are ignoring so many aspects and places and… honestly the entire mechanics of chains if you are attempting to compare them to drones man. Its not even close.
Like you found remote control and shoot, and then went "oh yeah its the same thing"
No. Theres more to drones than remote control and shoot.
And honestly theres more to chains with that addon than just remote control and shoot.
Both them have different areas and behaviors entirely so comparing them is inappropriate…I think you might be misunderstanding the criticism.
The new mechanic of launching drones at survivors is, as described, like the Engineer's Fang, especially when used against healthy survivors. What they described sounds almost identical, at least if the drones are in first person camera view. It's different against injured survivors, in that you obviously don't get any of the Possessed Chains effects you'd get on injured survivors, but it still sounds like the exact same interaction from a control standpoint.
Nobody's saying that Merchant's entire power is being replaced with Engineer's Fang. They're saying the Drone Propulsion mechanic makes her into another dash/projectile killer, because… it does, it's a projectile you control like a dash. That's literally what is being described. Some people's touchstone is Victor, some people's touchstone is Engineer's Fang, because that's the kind of power that is being described in the design preview.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3901070#Comment_3901070
Singularity because you are leaving devices down and are now actively using them(update) versus passive(current)
Dash killers???
Yea and they are equally silly as hell she doesnt dash.
How do dash killers behave? Do they stand still and let something else shoot at the survivors ? No.
Do they place things down almost like a trap, and push you towards those zones to down you? No
Have your own thoughts is the lesson here. Not "lots of people are saying…"
Does she still place drones? Yes
Do they still scan the area? Yes
Do they still provide area denial? Yes
What changed?
She can launch them at people now.
Conclusion:
1)Shes … not like a damage add-on chain, in anyway
2)Shes nothing like dash killersWhat they described in the design preview would function similarly to the Engineer's Fang because you'd be controlling a projectile that increases in speed to deal damage after impacting a survivor.
It's an extremely one-to-one comparison, it's obviously fine to like it (though I personally don't for a variety of reasons) but that's very obviously what's being described in the design preview.
It's also making her like some dash killers. Specifically, Twins and Houndmaster, because controlling the power separate from the killer to launch it at survivors is how they work too- at least, for Houndmaster's second dash.
Overall it shifts her far more to the dash/projectile kind of killers and very hard away from actually being a trap killer, because the "traps" aren't traps, they're projectiles you control.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900984#Comment_3900984
If one is Street Fighter…. lemme know. :)
Ha, one is in fact SF6. I'd go deeper into that, but I don't wanna take things too off topic here, haha
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900980#Comment_3900980
W ^
DBD is far from unique in this regard- it's not even the worst game I personally play for it.
Well you know the next question: What game does it worse? lol
Personally speaking, any of the fighting games I play are worse for tilting me like crazy if I keep playing during a losing streak. It's a double edged sword; you aren't screwed out of victories by bad teammates, but at the same time, the pressure is all on you.
Online games all have this to some degree, at least the PVP ones. Recognising it and managing it is key to having a healthy relationship with the hobby, imo.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
If @jesterkind can write up awesome reworks for Trapper and such, then I'd be curious if they have a response to this lol.
@OP, I advocate for only the best for the Entity however. I recommend you continue your training to serve the one, otherwise our mortal lives are fruitless, ignorant of purpose. Glory for the Entity, as well as your souls!
Appreciate the shoutout!
To the topic, I've not been playing for quite as long as OP, but I've found the most success in understanding that DBD is an online game and those all require a certain kind of approach to avoid losing your sanity to tilting and such. It's about pacing yourself, recognising when you've had a bad match and actively choosing not to keep playing if you're already frustrated, and taking reasonable breaks. Find some singleplayer stuff to play as well, especially more relaxed kinds of games; I keep Minecraft on my PC by default for this kind of reason. Sometimes playing against other people is only gonna make you feel worse, DBD is far from unique in this regard- it's not even the worst game I personally play for it, so it's not even worse than other games in this regard.
That's the generic stuff for all online games, though. For DBD, I find the most fun and the most rewarding experiences attempting to set my own goals outside of winning, especially on survivor; this also does apply to other games, but especially for DBD, solo queue can be frustrating if you just want to win because you can't rely on your teammates.
So, I go for fun perk combos and try to get value, I do tome challenges, I set goals like prestiging every character to at least level 3 (recently achieved, hell yeah!!), I focus on altruism or just outplaying the killer in chase… stuff like that. You gotta go in with the right mindset and understand that online games are uniquely frustrating, that's something to be managed if you want a good time, and DBD shines best as a more casual game where your goals are self-set and fun-oriented in my experience.
Plus, y'know, eight years is a long time. You might just have gotten everything out of DBD that you're gonna, maybe it's time to look elsewhere. There's no shame in that, eight years is a hell of a lot of time to get out of one game.
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Overall, I think these changes would be a big mistake. There are a couple of reasons for this, but they mostly boil down to the same fundamental issue: This removes the Skull Merchant's identity in favour of replacing it with a homogenised dash/projectile power.
We already have precious few killers that don't work like that already, and removing one of them to add to the over-populated pile is not a good idea. On top of that, I don't think what's described here would even really appeal to the players who favour dash/projectile killers anyway, so nobody's really happy.
Thematically, there's very little of Skull Merchant left here, and the only reason to think that's not a bad thing is spite.
However, to show that I'm taking this seriously and attempting to be objective, I did want to highlight some positives.
First, I do like the idea of Global Detection Power in theory. If a version of Skull Merchant were to lean more heavily into that, and potentially get some chase bonus like Haste to capitalise on it, I think that would evoke her concept much better than what's laid out here as well as still being at least in the same "macro power" vein of current SM for her current fans.
Second, changing drones so the distinction between info-focused stealth drones + chase-focused active drones is far more potent is a neat and workable idea, it's making them into a dashing projectile that's deeply flawed. Some variation on needing to juggle the drones actively in a way similar to the current rotation changing tool after activating drones would make the power more active and skill-expressive while still maintaining the idea of drones being a tool to utilise, not an entity to pilot.
Third, in general, the problem with current Skull Merchant is that her power isn't intuitive, so I do appreciate that being front and centre in the design preview. To be blunt and to make my position clear, that DOES NOT require a full rework to fix, not even close, but I do want to give props for it being a big concern for the dev team. It is an issue and fixing it one way or the other would be a good idea.
Overall, I'm not a fan, and my most high-priority feedback is this: Don't turn Skull Merchant into another dash/projectile killer. We don't need more of those and we do need more killers that work differently.