jesterkind
jesterkind
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Disappointed to see the rarity changes aren't being abandoned. They're just a bad idea with zero upsides, there's no reason to go through with this change.
If it's to help newer players, it's extremely relevant that it will make the game more confusing to learn, not less.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922090#Comment_3922090
This depends on perspective.
If you think the problem is that killers were hitting people on hook or simply waiting for a free down with a hook grab, then maybe the system did something. Although removing hook grabs likely did far more.
There are certainly ways to face camp with this system. You can just count to twenty and take a few steps back. You can down a survivor near a hook and stand as close as you like. For some killers, 11m is still well within lethality and they can down you on the way to the hook, so who cares?
But if you consider the core problem to be "killers aren't chasing survivors, they're standing at a hook doing nothing and calling it gameplay" this system has been completely ineffective at that. That, imo, has been the main issue that people wanted addressed.
And honestly, since the devs are still having to implement some other kind of "anti camp" measure in phase 2, that tells me the goal still hasn't been reached. So removing hook grabs and adding AFC hasn't met the devs goals, nor the goals of people who were asking to meaningfully address camping.
Personally I find the "strategy" of staring at a hook to be the most boring thing in the game. I can acknowledge that it has a situational place, but that shouldn't be every hook, and certainly not the first hook of the game.
Not really. The problem it aimed to fix was facecamping, and the system was pretty effective at fixing that.
Don't get me wrong, like I said above, I agree there are edge cases where it can still happen. Killers like Huntress are lethal enough at the edge of the radius to still be able to functionally facecamp as long as they have LoS on the hook. I'm not against it being improved, more on that in a second.
What I'm saying is, the problem is killers standing/walking very close to the hook to try and force stages. Between the AFC system forcing them to stand far enough back make actually preventing an unhook difficult, the removal of hook grabs meaning they only get a trade even when they can get in range quick enough, and the increase of hook timers ensuring survivors have longer to punish the killer's inaction, that strategy has taken a heavy blow.
People chime in to talk about this being an anti FACE camp system because a lot of people want it to be an anti PROXY camp system, and it just isn't. It isn't meant to stop killers from being nearby the hook to start chases or contest unhooks, it's just meant to stop them from being able to stand there and force stages. Aside from some edge cases, it's been pretty overwhelmingly successful at that.
That's not to say nothing should ever be done about proxy camping and it's definitely not to say the system is perfect. When BHVR put anti-camp in the roadmap, I strongly suspect we're getting improvements to this system, not an entire separate system alongside it. Just that what we have does fundamentally do what it's meant to do as long as you understand what that thing actually is.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
AFC is literally useless. Killers effectively have to opt in and consciously choose to make it trigger.
And you can tell that it does nothing by the responses: I haven't seen killers talk about this having an effect since it went live, but every. Single. Thread. About this feature has "iT's AnTi- FACE cAmP" with a zillion upvotes.
The default isn't to complain that it does anything, like literally every other thread on the forums, the default is to defend it's current implementation, because it has literally no effect. It's so trivial of a feature that you can play around it even if you play the game with your monitor turned off.
AFC actually made some killers better at the game, because they finally realized that proxy camping is better than hitting people on hook.
I mean, to be fair, you don't see anyone talking about this system having an effect because it worked. You acknowledge it yourself, even people who want to camp started proxy camping instead.
Facecamping is functionally dead, that means the system was a success.
Personally, I think this system does have flaws worth tightening up, but there's no getting around the fact that it was pretty damn successful already.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920696#Comment_3920696
Shoulder The Burden obviously mitigates tunneling by giving an extra hook state to the person you were trying to tunnel. You realize that tunneling with 3 hooks is barely viable, especially since people can come in for body blocks or are free to rush gens unpressured at any time. I know tunneling is still too much for casuals (because they're not playing competitively, let alone doing gens or playing smart), but against good survivors, that's how matches go. Now imagine what they could do with 4 hook states. And that takes away a hook states from 1 person to do, but does that really hurt the survivors? No, because you need another hook to kill the person you were tunneling (1 more use of OTR/DH), or if you want to go for the unhooker instead, now you're spreading hooks which isn't viable. I forget that STB even has the Exposed negative to the survivor, because it always happens across the map, and the timer is so short you'll never get to them in time. Survivors know how to play safe or hide when they're Exposed; you don't simply go back to hook after they use the perk and get a free down. I disagree with NarkoTri1er on it forcing 12-hooking, but not on it forcing hook spreading. And of course, the STB hook mark means little when individual survivor hooks are intentionally hidden from killer players, forcing people like me to count hooks with coins irl (which is sad).
Second Wind, I only complain about because it's another off-the-hook activated thing and is a pseudo- instaheal. I don't place it as a meta perk or anything. But if (not when) the survivor meta ever gets nerfed, and they're complaining about none of their new meta options being good, there's a good perk for them.
I disagree with the devs on increasing the hook timer just because the gen times were increased. They were both increased by the same amount of seconds, but that doesn't mean equal, because they're 2 different things and their starting total was different as well. Everybody knew that gen speeds were out of control before the +10 seconds change, because they STILL are out of control. So all the +10 seconds on hook does is give more time for survivors to rush gens before having to save a teammate. Before the change, they could hook trade at the last second, repeatedly, and that would be a net positive for them compared to what the killer was getting. You got a free hook trade. So what? They can keep doing that, and they're never gonna send in the death hook person to do it, so you're giving them a free ≤8-hook game where none of the survivors die.
And it's not being disingenuous. BHVR took a long time to do the change, because they were indecisive, because they knew they shouldn't do it. And they still have you duped, thinking that balance is just a matter of keeping those 10+ seconds changes in line with one another or not at all. No, balance is stopping SWF from being a game breaking tool, because you can't balance for them and solos at the same time, currently. And if touching base times/balance leads to disaster every time, then the last solution to be ruled out (which hasn't been done once in this game's history) is nerfing SWF directly, through decreased gen efficiency or something. It's the only reasonable solution that we haven't tried yet.
If you're going for the unhooker with StB, doesn't that mean you AREN'T spreading hooks, because the hook states are now concentrated on the person who got the unhook?
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I'd say there's enough content for one more chapter that wouldn't start to feel like it's reaching, by using either Jack Baker or Lady D. I guess you could make them into separate chapters, but I think it'd be neater to see a chapter for early RE, a chapter for mid-era RE, and a chapter for modern RE.
Not that I think they should any time soon, though, we've got enough to be going on with for now. More skins would be nice, but I don't think we need another chapter just yet.
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None of those things have been removed, is the main thing to point out here.
You can still camp, you just can't stand directly next to the hook unless other survivors are around (which makes the bar fill very slowly, if you're not aware).
You can still tunnel, it's just not quite as ridiculously broken as it used to be since you can't down someone as soon as their feet touch the ground. The Endurance bodyblocking is annoying but as you point out… you can tunnel through it.
You can still slug, it's… not actually been changed, yet, there's no anti-slugging in the game right now. Considering BHVR labelled the abandon feature as anti-slug when it isn't (an issue they've had before, they label things strangely sometimes) I'd suggest a "wait and see" approach before we need to talk about the effects of whatever it is they do have planned later in the year.
Now, I do want to point out that removing specifically tunnelling wouldn't actually be a problem, player agency is important but not when it exclusively causes problems. However, that's not what they're doing. They're not removing strategies, they're weakening strategies, and only problematic ones at that.
That's not just not a problem, it's a good thing, it's what you'd expect live balance to be aiming for.
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@Callahan9116 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921287#Comment_3921287
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3921287#Comment_3921287
Have you not read SS lately? It gets stacks and prevents aura withing 24M for each stack. It's usually not that hard in soloQ to not be the first down.
It gets stacks when people die, not when people are downed. It's deeply inconsistent and only at its most worthwhile when you need it the least, I wouldn't consider it a viable counter to aura reading.
@ the wider topic:
Distortion wasn't gutted. It's still a completely worthwhile perk that provides consistent information and stealth in matches that have aura reading. However, it's now a perk that has gaps, so if those gaps are things you care about the most, I'd recommend other tools.
If you want to be able to perform specific actions (repairing and healing mostly) while being stealthy, Shadow Step is the right call. Take a few seconds to set it up, and the killer won't be sniping you with BBQ or anything while you're on that gen.
If you want to be able to reset and get back into the action after an unhook without an aura pointing the killer towards you, Off The Record is your best bet, also offering some reasonably potent anti-tunnel as its main effect which makes it quite worthwhile overall.
If you don't actually care about blocking the aura and just want to know what the killer has + get an edge over them, Object of Obsession is worth mentioning. It does require you to be better in chase than it sounds like you are (no shade, I'm not great either), but it's a worthwhile tool within that context.
Aura reading is good right now but it's not absurdly oppressive and it's not impossible to counter. You've got tools available, if you want to use them.
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@Dwightyboii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920862#Comment_3920862
My stance is that the blight, ghoul, weskers and etc can traverse the maps in second why do they need the same movement speed as the trapper the nurse doesn’t have it because they have that ability.. a ghoul can bound to you put you in mend and then bound in front of you and within a sec m1 you down because they have the movement speed of a m1 not to mention they can bound thru pallets and windows so yeah having the same movement speed as a killer who’s only power is setting up traps is insane and the fact that I have explain this to you is wild.
Too high, then.
The wild part is I actually agree with you, I think more killers should be 4.4/110% to balance out their high mobility and strong mid-loop abilities. If you'd just outright said that we could've been having a productive conversation about it, lol.
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I don't think the forums are inherently biased one way or the other, for every [Role]-leaning post you'll see people in the comments disagreeing from the other perspective.
I think something that might give the opposite impression is that, currently, looking at the game from a neutral perspective, there are more problems affecting survivors than killers. So, anyone who isn't usually biased is still likely gonna be talking about those issues, since they're the most up-to-date topics to discuss for the most part.
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I agree with you overall, but it is worth pointing out that Shattered Hope is not the necessary counter to boons that should be basekit. It's an effect that isn't necessary and the perk should just do something else, no basekit involved.
Boons don't work in a way where breaking them on snuff makes sense. Their counterplay is baked in to the basekit.
This of course doesn't apply to things like tunnelling, in those cases you are correct and I agree.
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Is that too high or too low in your opinion…?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920812#Comment_3920812
Honestly, maps need an extensive rework.
They have to have generator, killer belongings (except killer specific ones), Hatch and Exit Gates tracking all basekit for both variants. Add in an add-on rework, small buffs to the pink map, and you get a pretty decent item. The pink map is not bad atm, but the green one sucks.
I'd say generators, chests, totems, and then exit gates would be the best list for basekit. I don't necessarily mind needing to bring an addon for the hatch, but I'd also buff it to track the hatch immediately when it spawns so it isn't kinda redundant with the current hatch mechanic.
Maps really need a way to track chests, though, and I think it should be basekit instead of making an addon for it.
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920668#Comment_3920668
We'd for sure be making maps even more useless and in need of a rework for sure, but I guess that's the case anyway.
Maps need help either way, yeah, we can't be holding perk design back because of it.
Hell, Still Sight already shows more things than maps do. Maps by default only show generators, Still Sight shows chests as well- and as a bonus, maps can't show chests unless you've equipped Detective's Hunch.
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@Memesis said:
Does it stack with open handed? If it does, no buff needed. Buffing it to reduce the charge time and reveal totems would absolutely be too strong with open handed
You know, I have no idea, but that might be a reason for its lacklustre range.
I see no universe where the charge time and totem reveal would be broken with Open Handed, though. It'd still only be equal to other tools for finding totems, and the charge time would just be less irksome to use.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
You might have said in the thread already but in the OG post you quoted this…
"Some tools don't show totems because they'd make other totem-reveal tools redundant, like Clairvoyance and Boon: Illumination"
Clairvoyance actually doesn't let you see totems unfortunately. (Unless if they changed that. Personally I think it should)
Clairvoyance and Illumination are examples of things that don't show totems because that would be problematic and they'd be too good in comparison to other totem-reveal tools.
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@danielmaster87 said:
The only maps with low resources are farm maps sometimes (I concede). So I don't see how that's the problem. And there's not really ANY perks that can carry a killer at this point. If survivors all decide to get downed at the end because of NOED, I'd ask "Why'd you do that?" In order for a killer to make use of perks like that, or slowdown perks, they have to be giving quick chases and/or pressure. It seems like that's what killers are giving y'all, and you're saying, "They still shouldn't be able to win."
Fix the farm maps so they'll actually have more/better stuff to run to. But after that, what's to complain about?
It's not just the farm maps, Haddonfield also spawns an abysmal set of resources almost always.
iirc there's also one of the McMillan maps that does too, but I forget which one so I won't throw my weight behind that.
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3920015#Comment_3920015
I don't understand why you wrote chases as a minus. If you don't get chases, then what difference does killer sees you or not?
And in any case, when the killer gets the ability to see your aura, you lose distortion token and immediately understand what the killer has for a perk, so having spine chille is a little pointlessYou have to get chased in order to get the information again, I would imagine is the point.
Distortion blocks one aura → you have no more ability to detect the killer's perks and addons until you're chased.
Spine Chill alerts you to one aura → you still have Spine Chill available for the next aura.
It's more consistent information in exchange for less direct impact on the match.
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@Deadman7600 said:
Idk why people are downvoting, sounds like a weaker distortion and that perk is already weak.
I wouldn't say weaker, and Distortion also isn't weak either.
It's more of a sidegrade, since you get significantly more information but there's no direct blocking.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919920#Comment_3919920
You misunderstand me, read it again, I said "its a perk for people who like to hide," not "for people who just want to hide,"
I hope you will understand there is a difference from that, and no the use case is certainly much much broader than just hiding and spying on the Killer.I understood that, don't worry. I'm saying I don't think that's the only intended use case for the perk. I think it's meant to be split between helping people hide and finding map objects.
It's currently decent but not incredible at the stealth element, and truly abysmal at the aura element.
If it were only meant to be for hiding from the killer at crucial moments, I don't believe it would show generators and chests. I think it's meant to be a hybrid-value perk.
A really salient example of what I mean is the perk Lucky Star, which is also split between stealth and aura-reveal for its value. On release, it was decent but not incredible at the aura reveal, and abysmal at the stealth. BHVR buffed it to have more equalised value between its two halves, which was a good idea- I think the same should happen for Still Sight.
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@Emeal said:
Still Sight is fine, its a perk for people who like to hide, if you don't like to do that, then that does not mean the perk is in a sorry state. Not every perk needs to be viable on every player, the perk is asking you to use strategies which you propably dont utilize well.
I have used this perk quite a few times and its fine, sometimes Its broken good.
I'm not sure I agree that it's supposed to be for people who just want to hide, I feel like it wouldn't have those auras if it wasn't meant to be a perk for getting the lay of the land after a brief moment of stillness.
I'd certainly agree that's the only use case it currently has, but I think that's a problem because I think it's supposed to be broader than that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919910#Comment_3919910
Then have the killer aura reading activate after 4 seconds, and everything else can activate after 2 seconds.
That seems needlessly messy and wouldn't really change anything.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919907#Comment_3919907
If going from 4 seconds to 2 seconds is a “very slightly” difference, then why bother making the change at all? Just suggest that totems get added to the perk, and the perk stays at 4 seconds.
But we can’t simultaneously say that going from 4 seconds to 2 seconds is important, but also won’t matter much.
What?
It's a very slight difference for excessive hiding, where you're already not moving very much.
It's a big deal for anything else where you want to be moving more often. It'd buff the perk's actually healthy uses and wouldn't move the needle much for specifically excessive hiding only.
Nobody's trying to claim those two things simultaneously, one never even entered the conversation.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919902#Comment_3919902
The anti-hiding feature is supposed to happen soon, and surely we can wait for that to happen, before figuring out if any perks should be buffed to allow easier hiding.
Your perk buff idea directly affects excessive hiding, if killer aura reading is still in the perk. This is completely relevant.
Eh, not really. The perk currently allows for excessive hiding and that would only tick up very slightly if the perk were buffed at doing literally anything else.
It's not an issue here.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919899#Comment_3919899
We have zero idea how effective the anti hiding feature will be.
We have an anti face camping mechanic, and people are still complaining about regular camping. It’s very possible the anti-hiding mechanic will be considered underwhelming, and that excessive hiding is still a problem.
I mean, surely the time to talk about that would be after we see what the details would be, right?
And the place to talk about it wouldn't be in relation to a wholly separate buff idea for a specific perk, too.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919889#Comment_3919889
If the killer aura is staying, then I’d rather the entire perk stay as it is.
2 seconds means that if a survivor is hiding in an area that the killer is patrolling, that they can repeatedly check where the killer is going, to make it easier to hide. We don’t need another perk to help survivors excessively hide.
Excessive hiding is on the roadmap for fixes, so I don't think we need to be concerned with that here.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
If the killer aura is removed, then it should be completely fine to increase the range, and add totem revealing.
As long as the activation timer isn't short enough to use in chase, the killer aura should be completely fine. If you can't use it to mindgame in chase, it's only real use case is for watching the killer leave while you're crouched behind a tile, and that isn't all that overbearing.
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@SoGo said:
I would also be in favor of decreasing the charge time, and adding totems into it.
By the way, it already is 24 meters.
My mistake, got some wires crossed- I meant 32 metres is the minimum it should get, but higher could be tested.
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@Massquwatt said:
I don't like the rework at all. However, that being said I believe BHVR had genuine intentions to keep her simplified and easy to understand. I think the problem was is that they quickly realized how much of a nightmare she was going to be to balance in her first iteration, the proposed second iteration fixes a lot of the problems of the first but they've kinda circled the wagon and gone back to making her have too many moving parts again. Frankly I don't even know what the solution is going forward with the rework. What we're gonna get is what we'll get because to me at least it's starting to get to the point where it'll be a situation where nobody will be happy with the rework.
The only workable solution involves scrapping Drone Propulsion, imo.
Presumably, because this is a preview and not a PTB, they're early enough along to do that. They really do just need to go back to the drawing board, Drone Propulsion is not going to work out the way they want it to.
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@Syux7 said:
- Stealth drones and Global Detection Power are too weak and will be useless against any remotely experienced player. Her stealth drones' scanlines should be mostly invisible like you originally planned so at least they will catch some people off-guard if they aren't paying attention.
- As for GDP, it sounds very hard to balance properly (on top of being just a boring ability that requires nothing from the player other than pressing a button). If you give it counterplay, it becomes useless but if you don't, it will be too strong. I think it should be replaced with something else, like an "Overclock Mode" Skull Merchant can activate after a short charge to temporarily enhance her deployed drones' tracking abilities, like a mini Doctor's Static Shock that only works on survivors within a certain radius of her drones. It would reward both SM for properly placing her drones, and survivors for taking the time of hacking them.
I've thought since the first design preview that the GDP should be something like Dredge's Nightfall, where it charges throughout the match and gives her a short duration of mega-tracking she has to capitalise on.
It being strong is okay if it's limited, either way.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919678#Comment_3919678
The #1 goal of the rework is to remove the “unfair hits” that survivors complained about.
All this talk of “making her less complicated” is just a distraction, to secretly hide the actual purpose of the rework.
I don't go for conspiracy brain thinking if I can help it. I'd rather take the devs at their word and assume they're making mistakes.
Obviously, they're not going to be front and centre with saying "this rework is only happening because of an irrational hate train", but that's about as far as I'm willing to go assuming something the devs aren't actively saying.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919656#Comment_3919656
No, it's not a good sign. In fact, I'm surprised the game has lasted this long with that kind of game balance scheme.
There was someone I argued with a while back, with me explaining that Skull Merchant isn't so crazy complicated, and them arguing that she's the only killer in the game whose design was super cryptic. Strange, coming from someone who seemed experienced at the game. But it just goes to show that their voice was pretty much the only experienced one agreeing that she was too complicated to understand. Nobody who puts even the bare minimum into learning about her is confused about her design. You'd have more information to process trying to learn Sadako, or Singularity, or Pinhead. It's literally just playing as her, playing against her, reading her power description, or looking up gameplay of her. Any one of those things will tell you what she's about. When the new Skull Merchant gets here, we'll be able to do the same thing.
To be fair, I don't think the takeaway here is supposed to be "New Skull Merchant would be impossible to understand".
The point is, what's in the design preview is objectively more complicated than current Skull Merchant, when the goal was to try and make her less complicated. Sure, you'd be able to figure her out with a little attention and patience if this new version hit live (though there'd be myriads of other problems because the design preview is kind of a nightmare), but that's a failure state as far as BHVR's stated goals go.
You and I may agree she isn't actually that complicated right now, but the fact remains that BHVR said they wanted her to be easier to understand and the design preview goes in the opposite direction.
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@Callahan9116 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919622#Comment_3919622
Perhaps your memory is not as far reaching, or perhaps you don't go on the Dbd sites much.
I'm not watching that video, but I'm imagining it'll say the same thing I did: Six years ago Pig got a series of nerfs. Ever since then, she's only been buffed, with the single nerf she's received in those six years being the removal of box auras, and that came in a patch that buffed her significantly overall.
"Nerf Pig" is an extremely outdated meme. We're not in that state of the game anymore.
(Also this still has barely anything to do with the actual post lmao)
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@Callahan9116 said:
You mentioned pig, pig was also nerfed to the dirt because people hated her.
I'm becoming increasingly convinced this is bait, but just in case: Pig's almost exclusively been buffed for several years straight, what are you referring to?
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@Callahan9116 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919616#Comment_3919616
Did you read her new killer loop?
CCan't Use drones mid chase, so if you are in swf she is useless. Don't even bother healing, drones can't down you, and by the time she catches up the trap is gone and her dart is useless.
Yes, that's why I made this post to pitch a different direction.
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@Callahan9116 said:
There isnt a single reason to pick her over the following
larry.
Twins
Houndmaster
Artist
She is worse than any of them, and functions like they all took their genes, threw them in a petri dish, and fed her during gestation on a diet of glue and pencil shavings.
We waited months for this?!?!?!
I feel perhaps your comments are not particularly geared towards the contents of this post, lol
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@Callahan9116 said:
WhWhoever greenlit this SM rework didn't play her
Probably not, and that was probably intentional, but I'm trying to be constructive in providing alternate ways forward that appease both sides- at the very least, a rework everyone can tolerate even if nobody loves it.
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@ThatRyanB said:
In addition to the conversation going on in this thread (which we're closely following - thanks for being so in-depth with your thoughts!), I wanted to pose two other questions:
1. What do you feel is the most complex-to-understand aspect of this Killer's gameplay flow here?2. What would YOU name the Drone Buddy? 👀
I don't think there's any one thing that makes it too complicated, I think there's just too many individual parts happening to juggle. It makes her more akin to killers like Vecna and Dracula, but with those killers, there's the consistency of knowing each individual part comes from the killer and has its own associated cooldown, making them easier to understand.
For this version of Merchant, you have:
- Passive drones still scan you, and their counterplay hasn't changed so you're still dodging beams (albeit with much less reason to bother now)
- Active drones are their own damage source and you need to keep in mind where they are and how they're hurtling at you
- If a drone hits you it puts a Claw Trap on you, and you have to be aware of that making you vulnerable to her other damage source
- The GDP lurks constantly and could be activated at any moment, causing more to keep track of when it happens
- On top of all of this, you have to remember that she can see you on her scanner at various times, which adds to the mental stack
She just has enough things happening with just enough delay between them to overwhelm the mental stack. This is the problem many people had with her before, and before, the various parts were staggered in such a way that they added up to the same basic premise: "get scanned and the chase gets harder, so don't get scanned". The interaction was one thing to keep track of even if there were multiple moving parts- the only other thing to keep in mind was her unpredictable stealth, making for only two broad elements to remember.
Here, she has many more broad elements- even if each only does one or two things and isn't as hard to keep track of individually, it adds up to more in practice because of how varied they are and how they affect different parts of the trial, not just actively being chased by her like Merchant's old effects.
If what she had before was too much to keep track of, this definitely will be.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919300#Comment_3919300
And I do not think that is possible. Not in a way that appeases both parties.
I disagree. There are hundreds of ways of overhauling her that would preserve her identity, each radically different to each other and to either version of SM we've had in the game so far.
Finding one that SM haters can tolerate may be difficult, but far from impossible.
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With the chest changes, I like the direction, but there is the issue of specific killer objects - Sadako's TVs and Xeno's turret spawn stations, plus I think a few others - sharing spawn points with chests. Adding more in could unfairly affect those killers, so something like giving killer objects priority would be appropriate if we're pushing through the chest changes.
I also feel the single-category BP offerings are only worth it if they give more than the all-category offerings (which means currently none of them are lol), so I might suggest nixing the lowest rarity one, then shifting each of the remaining two down a rarity, so you only have brown and yellow ones that each give more than the all-category offerings.
Personally, I think Luck and Fog offerings should just be fully overhauled, but that would be outside the scope of this post, to be fair.
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@Pulsar said:
Only issue I have is the complexity.
I see a decent amount of positive feedback from people and a lot of negative feedback from SM mains.
BHVR is going to have to pick a side. SM mains want the old SM back, which was universally reviled, and most of the rest of the community wants something completely different to SM's original design.
These cannot co-exist, one side will get the opposite of what they want.
There's a big difference between only wanting old SM back and wanting whatever comes next to still be recognisably Skull Merchant, which the original design preview wasn't at all and this one still deviates pretty massively from.
Both iterations of Skull Merchant we've had were radically different from one another mechanically, but still made sense for the character's identity. That's all that's meant, it still needs to work for the character.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3919199#Comment_3919199
Thanks for taking the time to lay all of this out. Your comments about complexity are something we're carefully considering on our side as well, especially if there are ways we can help guide players in their understanding of potential playstyles. I'll be sure to share your notes with the team
I appreciate the kind words!
For the record, I do see how changing her to be less complex and less passive could be considered positive for the game even if I don't personally believe those things are problematic right now. There are definitely ways to do this that would be worthwhile and better for everyone, I just think this particular direction is off the mark.
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It's better, I can see how changing the drones from just a health state period to only being able to injure would be less abusable, but it still has most of the old issues from the first design preview and a few new ones.
At this point, though, the thing I want to really point out is… if your goal was to make her simpler and easier to understand, you're going in completely the wrong direction. This version of Skull Merchant would be just as complicated to keep track of as the current one, if not moreso, because the various things to keep in mind at once aren't all stacking versions of the same concept (being scanned makes chases harder), they're genuinely separate parts of her kit.
Additionally, while this version of Drone Propulsion is better, it's still ultimately trying to polish a concept too flawed to properly function. Pilotable drones is one thing, a lot of people would enjoy that even if I myself find it unnecessary, but changing Skull Merchant to a projectile killer is bad for her identity and being able to place down projectiles like this is questionable for any killer.
I have some concerns about the EMP Dart being rejected by players for similar reasons to her current kit being rejected, but broadly I do like the idea of Claw Traps existing to set up damage/debuffs from an active ability, that part seems cool. That part being a projectile also seems less objectionable to her identity, even if ideally it shouldn't be a projectile there either.
Ultimately, though, my big feedback is this: If the goal is to shift Skull Merchant into an easier to understand and more actively-controlled niche, this rework is going to fail, no two ways about it. This version of Skull Merchant would be just as complicated, more overbearing, and would carry practically no upsides outside of the novelty of people who like projectile killers trying her out briefly. It also still obliterates her identity, just slightly less so than before.
TL;DR, Drone Propulsion isn't going to work out and you're putting more bells and whistles on this power than she currently has, making her just as complicated to keep track of.
EDIT: whoever did these drawings deserves a raise, they're great lmfao
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Broadly, no, I don't see that as necessary, it'd be a change made for arbitrary reasons.
Gens only fly under two broad circumstances right now: The killer isn't applying enough pressure, or multiple survivors brought toolboxes. In the latter case, just a stacked toolbox will suffice, and it gets much worse if they have associated builds for those toolboxes.
I did like the blood gens but I don't think they should become the main way of escaping in the main mode. I would like to see future events include different kinds of generators more consistently, though, so we have variation coming in at a steady pace.
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Flashbangs do have more purpose than just getting saves, to be fair.
You can still use flashbangs mid-chase in a few ways, and some might argue that's the more engaging and fun kind of flashbang use to go for.
They're not for me either way, to be clear, but I do see how they still have a niche. I also feel it's not that difficult to get saves now, I've seen them happen fairly consistently myself.
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There are a lot of reasons not to have voice chat, the largest one being that it doesn't solve the problems people want it to. Voice chat won't solve the disparity between players who can communicate and players who can't.
I also disagree both that Distortion was gutted and that aura reading is killing stealth as a tactic, but that's not what the thread is primarily about, I don't think.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3918021#Comment_3918021
nobody is holding a gun to your head telling you to p100 a character. There’s also the option of just saving up shards or buying the outfit you want. I don’t really care if there’s p100 rewards or not. It doesn’t really mean anything other than you’ve been playing the game and dumped all your points in a singular character.
I do know that, I'm just saying, people are going to be more inclined to do it if there's a serious cosmetic reward at the end. It's at the very least something to be concerned about when designing potential rewards.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3918017#Comment_3918017
it would keep them playing the game wouldn’t it?
At the cost of them being frustrated and burnt out because of how long the P100 grind is when you're actively pursuing it, though. That sounds more like a downside to me, personally.
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@HeroLives said:
a badge, a banner; and 1 free choice of outfit for that character from the store, unless licensed of course, and if licensed then 21000 shards so they can choose an outfit elsewhere.
Wouldn't the free choice of outfit be a really heavy incentive for people to get characters to P100?
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I've always felt they sort of buffed it in the wrong way, myself.
Right now, it's actually really solid as a chest-support perk, to make searching them faster for things like Hardened, Specialist, Moment of Glory, that kind of thing. That would be really good if searching chests like that was itself worth it, but it isn't, really.
The problem is, the perk's supposed to be a healing perk, skewing towards self healing. It used to give you the only medkit that buffed self heal speed, after all. Even back then, though, despite the fact that the Emergency Medkit was wildly overpowered… you could bring one in yourself, so Pharmacy just wasn't worth the perk slot. Practically the only use it has is fooling Franklin's Demise, that's about it.
IMO, they should buff the way you heal with Pharmacy. I pitched a rework before that would have the perk give you a unique item that gave you a better heal, but it was more limited. That's a better direction to go in my opinion.
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Aw, I like the broken-down animatronic look. I've never much cared for FNaF gameplay wise, but those designs are neat.
As for the children… we'll see. Could be a problem, could be they won't stick around for long enough to cause issues.