jesterkind
jesterkind
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924329#Comment_3924329
I'm willing to bet it's healthier to have that middling MMR. Mine's middling too and I see a nice variety. Very fun! I hardly ever see these uberstrong Killers. Or uberstrong SWFs for that matter.
I definitely still have fun with my killer variety at the very least, absolutely.
Though, I imagine I see more people giving up on first hook and otherwise throwing matches by throwing tantrums, haha. I can't imagine they're raising in MMR as high as people who actually try.
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@I_CAME said:
It's because there are more strong killers than ever now. The amount of killers that are S tier or A tier is pretty high. Blight, Nurse, Ghoul, Billy, Spirit, Plague, Pyramid Head, Twins, Oni, Singularity, Wesker, Dracula, Houndmaster, Unknown, etc. M1 killers were always weak so I don't buy that as the only reason. If your goal is to win then why would you ever play an M1 in current DBD? M1 killers are actually stronger than they were previously due to buffs they have received and because of map nerfs. They were just phased out because Behavior made the rest of the roster so strong and took away any reason to ever play an M1 killer.
To be fair, two of the killers on your list are M1 killers.
Spirit and Singularity only have powers to help catch up and their attack even still count as basic attacks, they're M1 killers. I think the real answer here is that - at least higher up in MMR - people broadly gravitate towards the stronger options and there are fewer-but-not-zero strong M1 killers. So, higher up, you see the list of stronger killers, and only a handful of them are M1.
Personally, I still see a lot of Legion, Ghostface, Wraith, and Myers, but I'm willing to bet my survivor MMR is only fairly middling.
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924020#Comment_3924020
One of strongest chase tools they had was nerfed, even if was leveled to the strength to 6.1 patch. Having "10" stack of STBFL - it was 9 really, considering the previous 3 second of cooldown - was a strong power to help end chases quicker to killer who would not end them quickly. Also, when i think about M1 killers i think about killers like Doctor or even Clown, who although has some antiloop into his kit cannot damage with his power.
We need more killer perks focused on M1 killers or they might become more rare as the days goes by.
That's what I'm talking about, yeah.
The perk was strong in general prior to 6.1.0, so while it's weakened a little for M1 killers, it still fundamentally does the thing it's supposed to… and that's all that changed for M1 killers. They couldn't mitigate stack loss to begin with, so they still have functionally the same perk with a very slight downgrade.
Something being nerfed doesn't automatically drop it out of viability. It's totally possible for it to still be strong afterwards, which it is.
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@Rickprado said:
M1 killers have been nerfed for a while, indirectly, because of perk changes like STBFL and sloppy nerf - and they would be nerfed even more with the haste changes if it went through the PTB.
Unless some good chase perk focused on M1 killers appear i don't think they will be played as before as ever again.
Why is it that people bring up STBFL in relation to M1 killers?
The bigger nerf that perk received was to no longer being able to mitigate stack loss with an M2 attack, which M1 killers definitionally don't have. The only nerf M1 killers have to care about is the slight lower of the percentage, but that nerf only brings it down to pre-6.1. numbers and the perk was still very good then.
M1 killers actually still have access to STBFL, it's hybrid and M2 killers that had it nerfed most severely.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923752#Comment_3923752
We really need to care a lot more about probabilities.
If we really want to be extreme, let’s talk about green glyph challenges, that literally have a 0% chance of helping the other survivors escape. These challenges literally encourages survivors to do an anti-teamwork activity.
The challenges need to be reviewed, to determine if the challenge action has a higher probability to hurt or help the rest of the team.
Challenges like breaking totems, or hiding near the killer, or green glyph challenges, have a way higher probability of hurting the team when rushed, so they should never happen in the future.
Well, at that point, we have to ask why.
Totem challenges only have a higher chance of harming the team (if they even do, ftr, I wouldn't personally peg those ones as the problem- chest opening is much worse) because people don't broadly value the perks that'd help. There's nothing actually wrong with the challenge, so maybe the solution is instead to encourage the use of those perks somehow.
Glyph challenges, sure, that's just a timesink. It's not necessarily harmful but you could easily see someone wasting too much time on them.
"Hiding near the killer", though, is a challenge with a weird perception in the community, not least because there's two versions. Assuming we're talking about the ones that actually have a distance listed, honestly, yeah, I'm on board with them not coming back, they're just kind of annoying— but people act like "be in the killer's terror radius" is the same way, and it isn't, those challenges are fine.
At a certain point if we want any halfway interesting challenges we need to take some steps somewhere to encourage good play within those challenges. I don't know how you'd do that, though. Maybe flavour text when the challenge is hovered over or something?
It's all well and good to say "if it has a higher chance of harming the team, it shouldn't come back", but it's equally bad for the game to not have any interesting challenges left afterwards. If all we're able to have is "finish trials" and "do gens", we may as well not have challenges at all.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923698#Comment_3923698
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923712#Comment_3923712
Do you super honestly not see any difference in “break totems” challenges and “be chased by the killer” challenges?
When a survivor rushes a break totem challenge, they are often spending large amounts of time breaking dull totems, which ends up not helping the other survivors at all.
But when survivors rush chase challenges, they can bring chase perks to help them last longer in chases, and when they are being chased by the killer it helps the other survivors because it’s occupying the killer’s time, and taking pressure off of the other survivors.I see the difference, but it's a slight difference of scale, not a difference of kind.
If a survivor rushes a break totem challenge, they COULD be spending large amounts of time breaking dull totems for no effect, or they COULD bring perks like Inner Strength of Overzealous to capitalise on the opportunity.
Similarly, if they're rushing a chase challenge, they COULD bring chase perks to help them last longer so other survivors have time to do gens and reset… or they COULD just be running at the killer regardless of context and getting themselves killed.
There's no functional difference save for chases being more common without challenges, both are susceptible to people throwing to do them. You'd see it more frequently with totem challenges, potentially, but the principle applies to both.
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Can't you hear Nic Cage's voicelines as other survivors? It's been a while since someone was playing Nic in my survivor games but I vaguely recall that being a thing.
If not, that is weird that they've added it just for the new gal. Honestly in general I think a lot of people would appreciate a toggle for survivor voicelines, they don't bother me personally but they seem to take some players out of the atmosphere a little.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923665#Comment_3923665
Seeing it as a people problem doesn’t actually help fix the problem.
Yeah, there are a lot of people that are going to rush the challenges. So the solution is to stop having challenges that are toxic when survivors try to rush them.
To be fair, at that point you can't have any even remotely interesting challenges.
Anything other than just playing matches would be susceptible to survivors throwing to complete them— even regular engagement challenges like "be chased" are susceptible to survivors throwing, by running at the killer to try and force chase when they should be doing literally anything else.
So, if your challenges are anything other than "complete trials" and "do generators", you've got the same problem.
I don't actually have a solution here, but it's not as simple as just not having challenges that survivors could throw to try and rush, because that's basically any challenge in the game.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923640#Comment_3923640
I mean while that premise is true, it's essentially just arguing for me to have the list shifted down once so that the top is now S+ as I demonstrated in my example. What does this accomplish? Basically nothing. Its only purpose is to support that "The letter rank in the middle of the tier list is middle of the road"
However if my criteria placed at the beginning states that it's not, then "My point is, isn't the B tier supposed to be the middle, not the start of the bad?" is an unnecessary criteria to meet.
Like if I state that B is the start of bad in my criteria, does it matter that B is the start of bad rather than C?
I'm just not seeing why it matters I guess. I just see the tier list as more a trickle down of bad rather than a top, middle, bottom.
Like I said, it doesn't really matter, I was just curious.
I do feel that you'd be more clearly communicating that you think a killer is bad if you use a low letter grade instead of a medium letter grade, though. If all you say is "this killer is X at best", and the X is C, I feel more people are gonna intuit that as "this killer isn't good", whereas B I feel like communicates "this killer is fine and not particularly bad".
Letter grades aren't that useful for this kind of communication anyway, though, so c'est la vie.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923632#Comment_3923632
We can do it that way if you want, but what that ends up being is just semantics. If I made that B as C, as you're requesting it also confuses a lot of people looking at the list since people tend to use their metrics a bit different.
IE current B for most people is middle of the road, but they're usually basing their middle of the road off different criteria than I am. So I'm generally using B in a way that confuses them less. If I was posting a tier list I'd place my metrics at the beginning for a reference point.
If I adjusted my levels in the way you want people would see a ton of killers in C or D and be very confused as those killers aren't generally considered C or D tier because of peoples different metrics.
It's kind of like using a word by its incorrect definition, but you use it that way because that incorrect way is how most people interpret and use the word. Using it "technically" correct, would cause most people to be more confused when you use it that way, even if it's technically correct.
Isn't that kind of the idea of a tier list, though? That you'd place things based on how you see it, and it might be different to how others see it, so that's where the discussion comes from? They're not objective, so "correcting" them based on how others see the things in question doesn't really make sense to me.
This doesn't matter, to be clear, I was just very curious and confused.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923621#Comment_3923621
It should be, but it's not.
If it makes it look better we can start our top tier at S+ instead of S.
S+-
S-
A-
B-
C-
Now it looks more in the middle lol
But like… why?
Why not just define the killers who struggle to have agency as being below the middle? I just don't see the benefit of doing it this way, it seems like you're choosing the scale just to define weak killers as B instead of C or D for some reason.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923614#Comment_3923614
Well of course since we're talking tier lists it's all subjective for everyone's list. My own personal tier list is based on how well that killer can compete if both them and survivors are all equally skilled and very good. IE if both sides are making very little, if any mistakes, what happens.
Essentially anything B tier and below relies on lots of mistakes from the survivors to win. Meaning if it's a B tier killer or below and both sides play perfectly, the killer loses basically every time. B tier relies on multiple mistakes from the survivors and as we trickle down the tier list C, D, F the amount of bad plays you need to see from the survivors to win increases. B tier and below represents a lack of agency in the game. You can be on your peak game and still lose.
To compare it to the polar opposite of this we can look at S tier killers. These killers do not rely on survivor mistakes. If both sides play perfectly the killer generally wins almost every time. They have agency. If I play well, I win. They can make plays happen whether the survivors mess up or not. Note that I would personally give some nerfs to S tier killers atm. In the same sense that killers B and below lack agency, survivors in this case lack agency, and that's not good for the same reason as the low tier killers.
The prime goal is A tier to me. A tier killers still do require some mistakes from the survivors, but it's slight. If you play perfectly as killer you still have a good chance of winning, as opposed to B tier. However you playing perfectly as an A tier isn't just an, "I didn't make a mistake? I win", like S tier generally is. A tier is a fair chance of winning still for the other side even if you're on your peak game but you still have some solid agency. It's the slight tilt we see in how the devs want a slight tilt of 60% kill rate as opposed to say 50%.
I hope this answers your question. I can elaborate more if there's somewhere I was a bit vague.
My point is, isn't the B tier supposed to be the middle, not the start of the bad?
The way you're describing the A tier should be the B tier, otherwise the scaling doesn't make any sense. A standard S/A/B/C/D tier would make most sense with B being the middle, the baseline you compare other things to.
This isn't specifically about DBD, this is just how I've always understood tier lists to work. B is the middle, so it's the baseline, the standard, the "good enough but not incredible".
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923453#Comment_3923453
It wasn't a misspeak, you misunderstood. You can quote me if you'd like and we can dissect my wording. I even looked back in case I had, I did not. You interpreted my wording as number of changes even though you could infer quality just as much as number. I think it's weird to interpret number anyway though as no ones measuring balance that way.
"which is that we see very little general improvements for killer and every improvement we see is matched with a nerf."
As I pointed out, this does not reference the number of changes but the quality. Tic for tac wording does not directly imply number.
"As for what else you're saying, it sounds like you're holding things to odd standards. Killers don't need to move up a tier (for as much as that's actually arguable, considering how subjective tiers are) for their ability to engage with the game to be improved. Did Leatherface suddenly become S tier because of his buffs to tantrum and collision numbers? No, but it sure helped him a lot. Hell, those buffs arguably removed some counterplay from Leatherface, that's usually a pretty big deal in a vacuum."
This is more arguing semantics. Yes tiers are subjective, but the general point is did their power level change substantially. We could argue tiers but the vast majority of people would in general agree that no they are not "substantially stronger". Most all those killers in anyone tier lists are still give or take within the same range.
"Same for, say, Myers, or Nemesis. Some would argue Nemesis did jump up a tier (though I'd argue he's always been underrated and a solid A tier candidate), but both of those killers just got noticeable, welcome improvements to their early game in particular and their ability to engage with the game in general. That's not a failure, that's a pretty noticeable positive."
The vast majority of people would not put Nemesis above B tier and I don't think I've seen a single tier list ever put Myers at even B. Anything in DBD B tier and below is in need of buffs and is weak. Below B needs substantial improvements. Even B tier killers are generally not competitive and require substantial mistakes from the survivors to win regardless of how well you play.
"Similarly, whether or not a perk breaks into the meta is an insanely high and also weirdly skewed metric to use. There's plenty of good perks people don't use, for a whole variety of reasons; pickrate is far too affected by far too many things to be your sole metric for how good a buff was."
That's why I put even just decently popular, not just meta. I'd argue most the perks they buffed didn't even make it to just "good" status. I'm not using pick rate as a sole metric. I'm also measuring actual value you gain by running them. Most are very little.
"Perks like Machine Learning, Trail Of Torment, and Furtive Chase are legitimately pretty solid right now regardless of how many people actually run them, and that's sort of what I mean when I say there's a lot going on for players who engage with the game outside of unbalanced cheese strats like tunnelling. The breadth of what's viable to tinker with right now, from killers to perks to addons (depending on the killer, admittedly), is wider in scope than it's ever been. You just have to be willing to let go of multi-slowdown tunnelling setups to start experimenting with it, and accept that your gameplay's probably gonna have to improve as you adjust."
Those perks aren't as good as you act like. I don't personally tunnel at all, but many killers are so weak they are forced to tunnel in certain matches. Like a Pig or Myers is absolutely getting wrecked against a good 4 stack unless they tunnel. Those types of killers are too slow to properly pressure the map without stacking slow downs either. I would not blame killers like those for tunneling me in a squad, they aren't winning otherwise.
"I'm not one to cite stats, typically, but I do want to at least float the notion that maybe killers are doing pretty well overall and performing about where BHVR wants them for the most part. I truly don't think it's a particularly reasonable position to say that killers aren't doing well right now without at least some examples of what you're even referring to."
Then I'll provide examples. Citing Nightlight since it's realistically all we have right now 3/4 of the killer roster are underperforming per BHVR's kill rate goals. This isn't just recently either, these numbers have been consistently below expectations for years.
I'm not reigniting this debate overall, but I have to ask because it's been eating away at me all night - when you say anything at B tier or below is weak and not viable… how on earth are you defining the tiers?
If B tier isn't the down-the-middle, baseline, decent-but-not-incredible tier for things that can get the job done, what is it?
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923453#Comment_3923453
It wasn't a misspeak, you misunderstood. You can quote me if you'd like and we can dissect my wording. I even looked back in case I had, I did not. You interpreted my wording as number of changes even though you could infer quality just as much as number. I think it's weird to interpret number anyway though as no ones measuring balance that way.
"which is that we see very little general improvements for killer and every improvement we see is matched with a nerf."
As I pointed out, this does not reference the number of changes but the quality. Tic for tac wording does not directly imply number.
"As for what else you're saying, it sounds like you're holding things to odd standards. Killers don't need to move up a tier (for as much as that's actually arguable, considering how subjective tiers are) for their ability to engage with the game to be improved. Did Leatherface suddenly become S tier because of his buffs to tantrum and collision numbers? No, but it sure helped him a lot. Hell, those buffs arguably removed some counterplay from Leatherface, that's usually a pretty big deal in a vacuum."
This is more arguing semantics. Yes tiers are subjective, but the general point is did their power level change substantially. We could argue tiers but the vast majority of people would in general agree that no they are not "substantially stronger". Most all those killers in anyone tier lists are still give or take within the same range.
"Same for, say, Myers, or Nemesis. Some would argue Nemesis did jump up a tier (though I'd argue he's always been underrated and a solid A tier candidate), but both of those killers just got noticeable, welcome improvements to their early game in particular and their ability to engage with the game in general. That's not a failure, that's a pretty noticeable positive."
The vast majority of people would not put Nemesis above B tier and I don't think I've seen a single tier list ever put Myers at even B. Anything in DBD B tier and below is in need of buffs and is weak. Below B needs substantial improvements. Even B tier killers are generally not competitive and require substantial mistakes from the survivors to win regardless of how well you play.
"Similarly, whether or not a perk breaks into the meta is an insanely high and also weirdly skewed metric to use. There's plenty of good perks people don't use, for a whole variety of reasons; pickrate is far too affected by far too many things to be your sole metric for how good a buff was."
That's why I put even just decently popular, not just meta. I'd argue most the perks they buffed didn't even make it to just "good" status. I'm not using pick rate as a sole metric. I'm also measuring actual value you gain by running them. Most are very little.
"Perks like Machine Learning, Trail Of Torment, and Furtive Chase are legitimately pretty solid right now regardless of how many people actually run them, and that's sort of what I mean when I say there's a lot going on for players who engage with the game outside of unbalanced cheese strats like tunnelling. The breadth of what's viable to tinker with right now, from killers to perks to addons (depending on the killer, admittedly), is wider in scope than it's ever been. You just have to be willing to let go of multi-slowdown tunnelling setups to start experimenting with it, and accept that your gameplay's probably gonna have to improve as you adjust."
Those perks aren't as good as you act like. I don't personally tunnel at all, but many killers are so weak they are forced to tunnel in certain matches. Like a Pig or Myers is absolutely getting wrecked against a good 4 stack unless they tunnel. Those types of killers are too slow to properly pressure the map without stacking slow downs either. I would not blame killers like those for tunneling me in a squad, they aren't winning otherwise.
"I'm not one to cite stats, typically, but I do want to at least float the notion that maybe killers are doing pretty well overall and performing about where BHVR wants them for the most part. I truly don't think it's a particularly reasonable position to say that killers aren't doing well right now without at least some examples of what you're even referring to."
Then I'll provide examples. Citing Nightlight since it's realistically all we have right now 3/4 of the killer roster are underperforming per BHVR's kill rate goals. This isn't just recently either, these numbers have been consistently below expectations for years.
I don't really think there's much more to say here, all I can really hit back with here is that you're downplaying some of these things pretty tremendously and that's not particularly constructive. I guess I could point out that I'm not arguing semantics when it comes to the killers, I'm defining my point. None of those killers raised in power so tremendously it shook up the whole power rankings, but they all (for the most part) got either stronger or smoother and more enjoyable to play when it comes to engaging with the game on a fundamental level.
See Leatherface again. It doesn't make him an S tier that he doesn't bump onto things as much and that his tantrum is so short you can't even reliably use lockers against him anymore, but it undeniably helps and makes him considerably better at engaging with the match. Same for Nemesis; his early game being dramatically improved and his already potent Tentacle Strike being bolstered, alongside reworking some of his addons to be genuinely powerful, really solidified his positioning and helped him engage with the game. They struggled before, the both of them, in ways they now do not.
Beyond that, all I feel inclined to say on the matter is that nightlight has proven to be quite wrong about killrate stats in particular, since recently we got the real stats and they were noticeably different. Per real stats, and also just by taking a step back and looking at how much has improved in what ways over the past few years, it's pretty obvious that killers are doing pretty damn well lately.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree, it seems.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923443#Comment_3923443
"It'd be shifting the goalposts when your initial position was that we don't see very many killer buffs"
Because that was not my position.
"Buffs outweigh nerfs quite heavily here, that's what I'm trying to demonstrate"
They do not. I think I've supported this from my killer and perk examples.
"BHVR buffing killers and their perks specifically for engaging with the fundamentals is very much the norm."
They generally speaking have not. Which is why I asked for examples.
"For the record, while the perk buffs can be pretty hit or miss, all of those killer buffs were noticeable to my recollection."
The literally only killer out of all those buffs I can think of that even moved up out of their original tier was Freddy. That's not what I'd call "noticeable changes". Most all accomplished very little. Also, of all those perk buffs which are we seeing in the meta now or even just decently often for that matter? None. Nearly all of them went from bad perks, to less bad perks, but still bad. That's a failure.
"It's not as though killers are struggling right now, it's not 2019. There's a lot going for people who engage with the fundamentals skilfully. "
I'd very much disagree. Also, "a lot going on for people who engage with the fundamentals skillfully", I'd like even a single example to support that. I disagree again completely.
If it's not your position, it's worth pointing out it is what you said. Everyone misspeaks sometimes so I won't drive that into the ground as a point if it is what happened, I'm just pointing it out, I was responding to what was in your post, which is that we see very little general improvements for killer and every improvement we see is matched with a nerf.
That statement was wrong. If you meant something else, fair enough, sincerely, but I can only respond to what's actually said to me.
As for what else you're saying, it sounds like you're holding things to odd standards. Killers don't need to move up a tier (for as much as that's actually arguable, considering how subjective tiers are) for their ability to engage with the game to be improved. Did Leatherface suddenly become S tier because of his buffs to tantrum and collision numbers? No, but it sure helped him a lot. Hell, those buffs arguably removed some counterplay from Leatherface, that's usually a pretty big deal in a vacuum.
Same for, say, Myers, or Nemesis. Some would argue Nemesis did jump up a tier (though I'd argue he's always been underrated and a solid A tier candidate), but both of those killers just got noticeable, welcome improvements to their early game in particular and their ability to engage with the game in general. That's not a failure, that's a pretty noticeable positive.
Similarly, whether or not a perk breaks into the meta is an insanely high and also weirdly skewed metric to use. There's plenty of good perks people don't use, for a whole variety of reasons; pickrate is far too affected by far too many things to be your sole metric for how good a buff was.
Perks like Machine Learning, Trail Of Torment, and Furtive Chase are legitimately pretty solid right now regardless of how many people actually run them, and that's sort of what I mean when I say there's a lot going on for players who engage with the game outside of unbalanced cheese strats like tunnelling. The breadth of what's viable to tinker with right now, from killers to perks to addons (depending on the killer, admittedly), is wider in scope than it's ever been. You just have to be willing to let go of multi-slowdown tunnelling setups to start experimenting with it, and accept that your gameplay's probably gonna have to improve as you adjust.
I'm not one to cite stats, typically, but I do want to at least float the notion that maybe killers are doing pretty well overall and performing about where BHVR wants them for the most part. I truly don't think it's a particularly reasonable position to say that killers aren't doing well right now without at least some examples of what you're even referring to.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923431#Comment_3923431
"It might be tempting to say you don't think these changes were helpful enough, but I want to be explicitly clear that doing so would be shifting the goalposts. The point is, killers have received a very high number of buffs aimed specifically at making engaging with the fundamentals easier and more appealing, and there's no reason to assume that's going to stop any time soon."
I think you're misusing the phrase of shifting goal posts because that's not what's happening when I point out those changes weren't enough. The changes quality of impact is what you are trying to support, that IS the goal post.
What matters more, the quality of changes, or the number of changes? The number of changes is utterly irrelevant. The quality is what matters. Is Trapper now crazy buffed since he's received more buffs than any killer? No, he's still trash because the quality of those buffs were minor. I think measuring the importance of changes by the shear number is a flawed way of looking at balance. If most those changes were extremely minor and changed very little, why would we expect to see anything different going forward.
"Carrots are the norm, there's no reason to go out of your way to include bigger ones just because the stick's being brought a little closer."
We're fundamentally not going to agree. If we don't agree on what the problem is, we aren't going to agree on a solution.
It'd be shifting the goalposts when your initial position was that we don't see very many killer buffs and that for every improvement we get, there's an equivalent nerf. Buffs outweigh nerfs quite heavily here, that's what I'm trying to demonstrate. BHVR buffing killers and their perks specifically for engaging with the fundamentals is very much the norm.
If you want to argue about the quality of the changes, I'm willing to do that, but we do need to acknowledge that wasn't what we started with.
For the record, while the perk buffs can be pretty hit or miss, all of those killer buffs were noticeable to my recollection. Some weren't particularly flashy - there are a good few just cooldown/duration tweaks in there - but they all helped the respective killers.
It's not as though killers are struggling right now, it's not 2019. There's a lot going for people who engage with the fundamentals skilfully.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923414#Comment_3923414
The vast majority of all the specific killer improvements have left those killers still very bad. Like for just one example, did Myers get a rework/buff? Yeah he did. Did it realistically buff him much at all? No, it didn't. He moved a little higher up the F tier. You can repeat this for "most" of the killer specific changes, unless you have some counter examples to provide.
If you're referencing more general killer improvements they have all come with counter balancing negatives. Like for almost every single general killer improvement you could mention I could mention a nerf they received around the same time if not the same patch to offset that. I'm not going to be disingenuous to say that things haven't overall improved, they have, but I feel like you make it seem as if they've improved way, way more than they actually have. We're talking a small, small number here.
"Similarly, I'd point to the perks that get buffed. Sure, the egregious slowdown gets nerfed (and also some of the not egregious ones, tbf), but recently we had buffs to Alien Instinct, a perk that is very much designed to improve the killer's ability to spread their pressure. Perk buffs like that are what you'd see to encourage the killer towards playing fair, and we do see those relatively frequently too- same question as before, is there something else you'd be looking for there?"
Provide more examples then because I completely disagree with this. Alien Instinct is still barely ran by anyone because it's not that great. Literally I think the ONLY example I can think of off the top of my head that fits this over the last few years would be Grim Embrace and even that got nerfed recently. I'd even go further in the opposite direction with examples. They've nerfed perks that were primarily only used on m1 weaker killers, which are the hardest hit by these types of changes. Sloppy and STBFL being two prime examples that should've never been touched.
"If it's not improving the killer's baseline ability to engage with the game or a killer player's selection of viable perks for spreading pressure, what is it that we'd be seeing? Losing tunnelling wouldn't justify in particular really oppressive slowdown perks, and that's the only example I can think of for anything broadly getting weaker on the killer side."
You add base kit regression bonuses for spreading hooks and then nerf regression perks simultaneously to compensate. This also has the added bonus of diversifying the meta.
At this point it sounds a little less like we haven't seen any buffs to improve killers, generally, and more like you're not personally a fan of the changes we did get.
Most of the killers who got buffs improved noticeably, Myers included. Is he perfect now? Hell no, there's still work to be done to modernise him. Did the buffs improve his ability to engage with the fundamentals of the game? Absolutely they did, his early game is significantly easier and that helps him get the ball rolling more smoothly.
As for more examples, sure, I'll go patch by patch.
This patch: Batteries Included, Furtive Chase, Game Afoot, Unbound all buffed, all perks that involve engaging with the fundamentals of the game over tunnelling. Oni was also given a change that I think was meant to be a buff, but jury's out on how effective that was. However, this patch did nerf Ghoul noticeably and Houndmaster slightly, for the sake of accuracy. Also technically Doctor but like… barely. Imperceptibly.
Patch 8.6.0: Legion buffed considerably, Xenomorph buffed noticeably, Pig/Ghostface/Skull Merchant buffed lightly. Alien Instinct, Deathbound, Hysteria, Nemesis (perk) all buffed, all perks that involve engaging with the fundamentals of the game. This patch also adjusted Eyrie and added Dead Sands to the Foresaken Boneyard realm, which you could argue was a killer buff overall, though that is admittedly a bit reductive. Blight and Hillbilly had their terror radius increased, which… up to you how you count that.
Patch 8.5.0: Freddy reworked. Beast of Prey, Fire Up, Remember Me all buffed, all perks that involve engaging with the fundamentals of the game to some degree.
Patch 8.4.0: Demogorgon buffed lightly, Ghostface buffed noticeably, Vecna buffed lightly (albeit with a few nerfs as well), Wesker buffed lightly, Myers buffed noticeably. To be fair, this patch did also nerf Chucky, a few of these patches have been ups and downs with him so I've largely been leaving him out. Distressing, Dominance, Thrill, Human Greed, Languid Touch all buffed, though admittedly it's a stretch to say Distressing involves engaging with the fundamentals directly. Also to be fair, this patch did nerf Weave Attunement.
Patch 8.3.0: Blood Echo arguably buffed (slightly shorter duration, but no cooldown, could go either way) and Dead Man's Switch reworked (again, I'd argue this was a buff but some see it differently). Deathbound, Genetic Limits (via rework but way less arguable), Crowd Control, Leverage (via rework, ditto), Machine Learning, Predator (via rework, ditto), THWACK! all buffed, all perks for the fundamentals, etc. This patch also reworked Zanshin Tactics, personal opinion how good that was. To be fair, this was also the patch that gutted Skull Merchant and contained some light nerf/buff combos for Hillbilly and Unknown as well as lightly nerfing Twins.
Patch 8.2.0: Doctor buffed slightly, Dredge buffed slightly, Nemesis buffed considerably, Knight… QoL changes? Not sure how to count these. No perk buffs in this one, weirdly, but no nerfs either. I'll note this patch was the one that raised hook timers.
Patch 8.1.0: Darkness Revealed, I'm All Ears, Trail Of Torment, Oppression, Dragon's Grip, Machine Learning (the first time lol) all buffed, you know the drill. Knight reworked, Singularity buffed. This patch also contained some Chucky ping-ponging, and it also was the addition of hooks respawning after someone's sacrificed.
Patch 8.0.0: This patch did nerf Pain Res, Deadlock, Grim Embrace, and Pop, so fair enough. Those perks are hardly dead (save for maybe Pop), but that's besides the point of this list, they were in fact nerfed. Bubba buffed noticeably, Deathslinger buffed lightly. Wesker was nerfed lightly in this patch, and more Chucky ping-ponging.
I'm gonna stop there because I'm honestly getting bored swapping tabs to double check all this stuff, but you get my point. It might be tempting to say you don't think these changes were helpful enough, but I want to be explicitly clear that doing so would be shifting the goalposts. The point is, killers have received a very high number of buffs aimed specifically at making engaging with the fundamentals easier and more appealing, and there's no reason to assume that's going to stop any time soon.
Carrots are the norm, there's no reason to go out of your way to include bigger ones just because the stick's being brought a little closer.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923405#Comment_3923405
"The incentives and buffs that you're looking for there have been coming to the game steadily over the past few years and don't show any particular signs of stopping, so that's why I didn't include them in this post."
I don't agree with this premise. Very little has been done and what has been done has come along with simultaneous other nerfs counteracting most of the positive.
"At this point, tunnelling does frankly only happen because it's the easiest shortcut to value in the game."
As long as you have this mindset the problem will never be solved. There will always be exceptions, but the majority does not do it for that reason. Most killers would rather play in the more "fair" way just going for hooks and whatever chase they run into but they don't, and it's not because it isn't the easiest.
"There truly doesn't need to be dedicated killer buffs that are linked to this change because every single killer basekit and perk buff that happens is the equivalent carrot you're talking about. "
We've seen very, very little of any of this.
"In short, I am addressing the reason why killers tunnel. I'm just not acknowledging the reason some players say is why they tunnel, because I don't think it's particularly reasonable or compelling."
You're addressing a "why" that isn't the reason why.
I'm afraid I'm gonna need you to be a bit more specific, sorry.
When I say that every (positive, at least) change that comes to the game is a buff to the killer playing fair, I'm referring to things like the killer's basekits being improved, which is very obviously geared towards those killers engaging with the fundamentals of the game and not leveraging balance issues for easier value. We've had a few of those at this point, is there a reason you'd say those don't count?
Similarly, I'd point to the perks that get buffed. Sure, the egregious slowdown gets nerfed (and also some of the not egregious ones, tbf), but recently we had buffs to Alien Instinct, a perk that is very much designed to improve the killer's ability to spread their pressure. Perk buffs like that are what you'd see to encourage the killer towards playing fair, and we do see those relatively frequently too- same question as before, is there something else you'd be looking for there?
If it's not improving the killer's baseline ability to engage with the game or a killer player's selection of viable perks for spreading pressure, what is it that we'd be seeing? Losing tunnelling wouldn't justify in particular really oppressive slowdown perks, and that's the only example I can think of for anything broadly getting weaker on the killer side.
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@Blueberry said:
So I'm down for something like this, honestly I'd go even further than you did, the problem is you only addressed the survivor side, which is why people are probably down voting it a lot. This stuff is not an isolated change. You needed to add massive killer improvements simultaneously to go with this, but there was..nothing.
I'd like tunneling removed, but you need to also address why killers tunnel at the same time. You're essentially accomplishing the same mistake the devs are doing with a lot of their deterrents to tunneling/camping/slugging ect, which is addressing the symptoms instead of the core problem itself.
Killers need incentive to play the way you want them to, not just punishing them when they don't. They aren't going to play in a way that loses them the game. They need to make playing "fair" the most efficient play style or at least competitive. Give killers a reason to spread hooks around.
Less stick, more carrot.
The incentives and buffs that you're looking for there have been coming to the game steadily over the past few years and don't show any particular signs of stopping, so that's why I didn't include them in this post.
At this point, tunnelling does frankly only happen because it's the easiest shortcut to value in the game. There truly doesn't need to be dedicated killer buffs that are linked to this change because every single killer basekit and perk buff that happens is the equivalent carrot you're talking about. If this were to reach a real patch, you probably would see some buffs… because most patches recently have had that kind of buff, because "that kind of buff" is literally anything you'd care to improve, "not tunnelling" is the entire video game.
In short, I am addressing the reason why killers tunnel. I'm just not acknowledging the reason some players say is why they tunnel, because I don't think it's particularly reasonable or compelling.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923382#Comment_3923382
I think its from people who see something on paper and think she constantly is in the crouch and m2 state when its not something you even use and rare can get to connect.
You have the option but you would number 1 be slower than base speed most of the round. And number 2 youll miss it most of the time as survivors can just run away when they hear the growl.That's what I'm talking about.
The only reason you'd disqualify Pig as an M2 killer is because her M2 isn't very good (though it's also not that bad these days either)… but that's not a commentary about what her power does or how it's designed, it's just commentary about how strong she is. Pig is, by some definitions, pretty unambiguously a weak M2 killer.
I'd personally call her a hybrid because of how Ambush is designed, like Demogorgon, but it is an M2 damaging power. People insist on M1 being weak and M2 being strong, but there are examples in this game of the opposite in both cases.
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@Lexilogo said:
Forgive me, but I'm not sure where the disincentivisation of tunnelling is? It seems to me like tunnelling would be a bit stronger, because no endurance means Killers can immediately hit people who get unhooked again. They get 10% Haste instead, but a lot of killer powers can deal with that. By "no collision" do you only mean Survivors walking through Killers, or do you mean complete intangibility against all Killer attacks as well?
One thing I will say that I don't think I need much clarification on: That Power Struggle buff is way overboard, even being generous and assuming by "when a survivor is unhooked" you meant "when you are unhooked". (if that wasn't a typo, this being able to activate on the whole survivor team at once is horrifying lol) It'd mean unhooked Survivors would just walk up to pallets and sit under them knowing they're invincible. I see the logic in trying to make it like a Decisive Strike sidegrade, but no timer & infinite uses is not an appropriate buff. TBH I don't think it needs a special bonus if this is the direction you want to take it, the ability to put a pallet between you and the killer when you break free is already a decent sidegrade bonus in exchange for consuming the pallet.
Happy to clarify: No collision means complete immunity to attacks and an inability to bodyblock because the killer can walk right through you.
I think if all that happens is losing collision you'd still be affected by stuff like Doctor's Static Blast for Madness? But you would be immune to any source of damage.
And yeah, I meant when you're unhooked. I don't think that would actually be all that busted, you'd only be able to use this if the killer's chasing you and if you actually go down under a pallet, which can't necessarily be guaranteed.
I mean, you can go sit under a pallet and you're invincible… if you haven't done anything else between being unhooked and running to the pallet. If the killer takes that bait, it's on them, that's a neon sign saying "IGNORE ME! I HAVE POWER STRUGGLE!" lol.
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@ChuckingWong said:
Someone thinking pig as an m2 killer lol thats where we are at right now
That's not actually all that insane. Part of her power is a damaging special attack, by some definitions she absolutely is an M2 killer.
If she's an M1 killer, then someone like Demogorgon should also be considered an M1 killer. More realistically, you could also consider the two hybrids, since they have meaningful access to M1 and M2 attacks they'd realistically switch between.
The only way Pig being an M2 killer seems outright ridiculous is if you insist on a framing where M1 killers are weaker and M2 killers are stronger, but that's not really represented in the game right now. Pinhead, Singularity, and Spirit are unambiguously M1 killers and they're also still quite strong, one of them being either a former or current S tier depending on who you ask.
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@sanees said:
"Power Struggle:
Rework: When a survivor is unhooked, Power Struggle activates until a Conspicuous Action is performed. While Power Struggle is active, any pallet can be dropped while carried by the killer.
Decisive Strike:
Stun duration raised to 5 seconds (Was 4 seconds)
Now activates after both unhooks (Was once per trial)
"OK, but here are the options for killers, noed is no longer a totem, active from the beginning of the game and immediately allows you to memento survivors
considering your variation of Power Struggle, which simply allows you to fall under a palette at the end of the game and is guaranteed to escape, the Noed buff doesn't seem so crazy anymore
You do understand that in addition to the 0.1% of the strongest nurses, there are killers like GF, trapper, etc., and for them these changes will be the strongest?You know what, you do actually raise one good point- that version of Power Struggle should realistically disable when the exit gates are powered, just like OTR and DS.
That was an oversight on my part.
The rest of all that is exaggerated hyperbole, though.
As an aside, everyone always has it backwards. It's not "Trapper is hit too hard by anti-tunnel", it's "Nurse isn't hit hard enough". It's supposed to hit killers hard, otherwise it isn't working.
@Zuiphrode said:
Jesus christ go away. It's yet another "survs should always get a safe unhook" thread.
If there's any danger to an unhook, it should be to the person performing the unhook, not the person being unhooked. Survivors still lose overall if they're just trading hook states, they're only buying a little more time.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923264#Comment_3923264
I feel like Glyphs and Memory Shards wouldn't be an issue under certain conditions (like them exclusively keeping the restriction of doing only one at a time).
How would that actually be implemented, though?
Maybe if you only get to finish those quests by using the "track" feature?
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@solsol said:
Agreed with most points on here.
Another point I think is worth adding is that the bloodpoints are way way worse from the dailies. A daily ritual used to give 30000 minimum up to a maximum of 60000.
Today I have 3 dailies that give 2500 bloodpoints each - sure there's the added improvement of them being role agnostic, but a total of 7500 bloodpoints per day is extremely low and just a straight up massive downgrade from what we had.I had the same thought myself, but personally I think that number would be okay if you could just keep doing dailies for that low number without them running out.
Either raise their BP rewards or make them repeatable, either would work imo.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923208#Comment_3923208
because a person can still bodyblock using babysitter? you do realize that babysitter is just otr with a speed boost right?
It is not.
OTR increases the Endurance timer, which is what allows it to be used for bodyblocking so effectively.
Babysitter, by contrast, only provides some stealth elements and much higher Haste, which you could honestly argue makes it slightly harder to bodyblock since you'll be moving further ahead of the killer when you run.
Babysitter is not a perk you can use to bodyblock for any longer than the basekit duration, and it also makes it slightly harder to do because you move faster. It really truly doesn't make bodyblocking any easier, at MOST it just doesn't STOP you from bodyblocking with the basekit Endurance.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923262#Comment_3923262
Survivors have so many powerful perk options that not being able to run an exhaustion perk isnt really as much of a downside as you are thinking it is.
You're missing the point a little, which is that this already isn't viewed as a particularly worthwhile niche to explore with the already existing, stronger perks that did it prior to this patch.
Having one that's weaker and more awkward to use in exchange for being a little more frequently available doesn't seem like it'll move the needle to me.
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@DigitalisObscura said:
I agree with all this but especially having the quest variety. It's strange, too, because the new system of being able to work on multiple quests simultaneously makes these less "throwing the game", meaning most people would be happier to engage with them. Like, before I'd bring Shiny Coins to open 4 chests in a single match (even though it wasn't necessary to do them all at once) just so I could get through it and do the next challenge. But no you could just open 1 when you get the chance and not have to seek them out because you're still doing the generator and healing quests at the same time.
I'll especially miss glyphs, but I guess they can't figure out a way to implement them without inundating every match with every single type of active glyph quest all the time.
Yeah, I think glyphs might unfortunately just be incompatible with this system.
I'm planning on making a more in-depth post about this soon, but my hope is that on top of keeping the Compendium for old challenges, we might be able to get once-a-chapter drops of a few pages of Glyph, Memory Shard, and related challenges bound to that old Tome system so players who want to do them still can.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923241#Comment_3923241
THe people saying it was too weak are idiots.
Just one look at Rapid Response would be enough for a reasonable person who is using their brain to realize that this perk is disgustingly overpowered in the hands of a SWF. On demand information for all 4 survivors at the cost of 1 perk slot because of Comms. I think you will agree, that is not a conclusion that is difficult at all to draw.
"but it only lasts 2 seconds!" is irrelevant. The amount of time the survivors get the aura reading literally does not matter. The problem is you are giving survivors on demand information on the killer with no tell to the killer that they are having their aura read, and on a SWF this gets communicated so all 4 players get that information at the cost of 1 perk slot.Yeah, I gotta say I'm not super convinced.
Survivors could already get this info from a few sources. Fogwise would probably be the strongest, but Open-Handed plus a Blood Amber would do it, Alert could do it, Object of Obsession could do it, Eyes of Belmont could do it…
Rapid Response being a little more on demand is something, but between the lower duration and the opportunity cost of not getting to use whatever Exhaustion perk you're activating it with for chase, I think it's still weaker overall. At the absolute most, you could argue it's one of the perks that can be used this way.
Since the others don't seem to see much use for this strategy to begin with, I'd presume Rapid Response won't either.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923223#Comment_3923223
I was hardly the only person saying it.
I saw a handful of people saying Rapid Response might be problematic, but they were outweighed overall by the people who felt it'd be too weak, so I'm not surprised that was the feedback that reached BHVR. I'm also inclined to agree it isn't problematic, the only potentially harmful use case I saw raised for it was better filled by other perks already.
I didn't see anyone concerned about Do No Harm being problematic. I'm not sure what that would even look like, frankly.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923186#Comment_3923186
I said all 3 were going to be a problem in SWFs but since they arent obviously OP to the absolute lowest skill players in solo queue people laughed and told me I was wrong.
Are you implying BHVR should've listened to you specifically and not overall comments from everyone…?
I don't want to assume that's your position without asking.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923194#Comment_3923194
shoulder the burdon takes away a death hook even if you dont tunnel that person.
How are you hit by Babysitter if you aren't tunnelling, though?
That's the only perk OP mentioned so it's the only perk we have to provide context for the discussion.
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@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444401/8-7-0-steady-pulse
Wonderful, I see absolutly nothing was listened to with the new survivor perks. I quit.
To be fair, the two perks that got feedback were Duty of Care and Rapid Response, the former being concerns about it being too strong and the latter being concerns about it being too weak.
The devs nerfed Duty of Care and the buffed Rapid Response, without adjusting Do No Harm, the perk that everyone broadly seemed fine with.
Don't get me wrong, I personally wish they'd buffed something else about Rapid Response and I imagine most people complaining about Duty of Care wanted a different nerf, but they did broadly make the kinds of changes commonly suggested for both perks.
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Hard agree, I'm hoping the devs decide to simply keep tomes tucked away for players to access if they want, and to provide a little extra long-term goal setting for dedicated players. It wouldn't be hurting anyone or requiring any upkeep, so it really wouldn't be an issue.
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@paranoidmad80 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444403/about-new-the-color-rarities
You should give the developers a chance. This forum is known for negative feedback. What do you expect? That everyone will scream and then suddenly something will change? I think there should at least be an option to switch it on and off instead of throwing everything overboard straight away, because there are also players who like the new features. It's like the generator sounds back then. Instead of introducing an option to switch it on and off, it's immediately removed again because the players shout loudly enough and I don't like that
The newer generator sounds didn't cause actual, practical issues, though. That and the new survivor animations were just a case of people disliking something on subjective grounds and reflexively being averse to change— resulting in one of those things being changed.
The new rarity system has actual issues, making the game more confusing for new and veteran players as well as harming colourblind players' ability to tell rarities apart at a glance. Those are things worth criticising over and reasons why this system should just flat out be reverted.
I'm not against a toggle for people who'd prefer a more traditional rarity grade, but the default system should remain what it's been for eight years.
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To be fair, as long as those types of challenges still exist, you can still gear your loadout and playstyle for that match around completing that quest— that's already how I do things in other games that have this system, like Fortnite, I'll pick my landing spot geared around doing one of the quests available.
All it means is that you can do multiple at once, which could also be more reason to tailor your loadout and approach.
My bigger issue by far is reports that there aren't any glyphs or other interesting/unique challenges. I think those should still exist in some form, they're unique to DBD and it's a shame to lose uniqueness unless absolutely necessary.
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923055#Comment_3923055
For something like that, they could just have symbols in the corner of each offering type's icon. DBDM had a sorting machanic that would quickly narrow down offerings, perks, add ons by what they do to affect the trial or your inventory. Core should have this too, and then have the symbols as well to immediately know which sorted category an offering/perk/item/add on can be found in
Or just go back to the old system that worked perfectly fine.
I can respect wanting to salvage the work that was done, but in this instance, there's no need to actually change the rarity system. It worked perfectly fine before, what's the benefit of changing it?
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923038#Comment_3923038
Again, all they need to do to solve colorblind issues is introduce a symbol to distinguish each rarity. Looking at videos prior to the update won't add any confusion either, since the actual icons of the offerings, perks, items, add ons haven't actually changed other than the rarity's colour entirely
Oh, I didn't realise we'd conversed about this before, my bad. I have a bad habit of not looking at usernames before I respond, haha.
Well, like I said before, it's also fixed by just not making arbitrary changes. The names and icons haven't changed, but those aren't the things people have used to convey which item or addon they're talking about for eight years - people don't usually say "Emergency Med-Kit", they say "green medkit", which now means the wrong thing.
This wasn't necessary, and it achieves nothing while adding new problems. It should, flat out, just be reverted.
That said, I do like the blue colour. I saw someone suggest using it only for map offerings to distinguish them at a glance in the bloodweb, and I do like that, that'd be a good use for it.
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444403/about-new-the-color-rarities
Its not that big of a deal. They look nicer anyway, and clear up confusion for new players who are familiar with this rarity colour scheme in other games
It clears up confusion until they go looking at basically any community guide, entertainment video, stream VOD, or any other content made about the game prior to this update, at which point it'll add confusion.
This game's rarity grade also wasn't actually hard to grasp, it's just a matter of looking at your inventory and going "huh, those are weird colours to use".
So, no real confusion is being removed, and some real confusion is being added, plus the colourblind accessibility concerns. I'm sympathetic to the goal and I even like the colour they picked, but this was just flat out a bad move to make.
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922299#Comment_3922299
The colors can be fixed by using symbols to represent rarities, similar to Marvel rivals. Majority of games use this color scheme now for rarity distinction
It'd also be fixed by just not changing the colours arbitrarily. Other games may use this colour scheme, but there's no actual reason for that, it's just a standard.
There's no benefit to changing them to begin with, that's why it's worth criticising.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922440#Comment_3922440
People can combo it with Sprint Burst, so they don't need a locker. Someone can just voice comm "Where is the killer", and their teammate can let go of the generator they were repairing, Sprint Burst for 0.1 seconds, tell the SWF where the killer is, then go back to repairing the generator.
Why do you think OoO got nerfed, if "actual SWFs'" don't use info perks?
Wait, are you insinuating that getting a very brief look at where the killer is would be a better use of Sprint Burst than actually gaining distance from it?
Even in a SWF where the whole team could hypothetically get a vaguer version of the info you get, that's still a massive waste of Sprint Burst. This perk isn't as bad as some are making out, but that's absolutely not what it's use case would be.
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@OPXtreme_ttv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922112#Comment_3922112
Cus they look better, what is there to complain about? The colours being familiar with other games helps to familiarize new players, and also relieve confusion regarding whats unqiue about an outfit
There's two things to complain about.
1: Reportedly, this new set of rarity colours makes things harder for colourblind people. I'm not colourblind myself, but I have seen more than one or two people weigh in with their own experiences there.
2: Changing the rarity grade in this specific way after this amount of time makes things more confusing for newer players, not less. They may be able to understand the rarity grade slightly faster (not that it really took time to learn this game's rarity grade since things are listed in rarity order), but anytime they go to look at any commentary about the game from early than literally today, they're going to see a different rarity grade.
It adds a few moments of minor confusion and doesn't remove any. It's just negative, outside of the colour looking nice in a vacuum.
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@daikaimon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922216#Comment_3922216
The sadness of being nerfed one after the other where you loved the original, bought the killer, and enjoyed it will never be understood by statistics.
FNAF is another work of art that I love. I don't want to feel bad anymore.
Yeah, I'm saying that isn't likely to happen.
You can usually tell when it will, too. Kaneki was insanely strong, anyone could've seen the nerfs coming.
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@daikaimon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922203#Comment_3922203
The BHVR does not care about the killer play experience. All they see is the whining of the survivors.
FNAF chapters will not even be worth buying. Even if you like a new killer, it is a pain to play with the fear that it might be nerfed again. Playing as a survivor is not a bad idea, but honestly, I have nothing but distrust for BHVR now.
Most killers recently have been buffed after release, not nerfed. I feel like investing in a new killer is, statistically, much more likely to be rewarded than not.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922197#Comment_3922197
bodyblocking with endurance exists for such a long time, Babysitter further empowers it. Have a Babysitter user unhook you, you have OTR and you're ready to help any other survivor being chased on the map by now being able to reach them even faster
Gotcha.
That's OTR, not Babysitter. Any Haste effect would achieve the same result. Sprint Burst could be used this way.
Still, OTR bodyblocking is annoying and I hope it's changed with the upcoming anti-tunnel stuff. Fingers crossed.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922189#Comment_3922189
it actually can be abused to a very high degree for aggressive anti-tunneling, now it's gonna be even more miserable to face taking in mind that it was already an A+ tier perk
…How?
It's Haste and light stealth elements. How on earth could those be abused?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922185#Comment_3922185
"but I don't think there's enough evidence here to say BHVR genuinely made him overpowered on purpose."
They did it before. Two times. Ash and Mikaela, Mettle of Men and Circle of Healing. But those are obviously Survivor-Perks, there people accept that BHVR did it on purpose as a Cashgrab.
But not with a Killer, nono. This was only because of Survivors complaining. This was the ONLY reason. /s
I wasn't around for Mettle of Man, so no comment there.
Circle of Healing, though, point blank was not made overpowered on purpose then nerfed after they got the right amount of sales. This is extremely obvious via the fact that it was nerfed several times to try and make it work, and then after being soft-reworked, is still one of the most powerful altruistic healing tools in the game.
It's another example of something being too strong by mistake. That can still happen, it's safer to assume incompetence over malice.
(That's just a saying, I don't think BHVR are incompetent either.)
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Maybe they wanted to remind people it existed, I don't see it very often.
Since it's one of the only anti-tunnel perks that cannot, in any way, possibly be abused, I'm not that worried about it being buffed. It is still a somewhat strange pick, though.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922153#Comment_3922153
I usually dont react to you, but I want to tell you that you are wrong. It is logical that they went with an OP-Killer for this Chapter. It was a Killer-only paragraph and it was quite niche compared to e.g. Dracula or Xenomorph. It was clear from the start that not everyone likes Anime. And the Devs needed some selling argument for those who are not completionists/collectors and who are not into Anime - so they created a Killer which is braindead easy for the reward it granted.
We can argue where Ghoul was on the Tier List, but he was AT LEAST at the Top of A-Tier, very likely even S-Tier, up with Blight and Nurse. And for way too less effort you have to put into him to get good results. This was solely done to boost the sales.
And if you cannot see this - sorry, you are just clueless.
I don't know, that seems like a slight stretch to me, still.
Couldn't you also say that about any killer, hypothetically? Any other big-name you could argue BHVR would make powerful to draw in the fans, any killer that is licensed but isn't a big name would be made powerful to boost sales, any killer that isn't licensed would be made powerful to make them more appealing compared to licensed chapters…
It's not as though killers haven't been too strong on release ever before, too, it just hasn't happened that much recently. I think Kaneki being in that boat was just a mistake. Maybe they wanted to make sure he wasn't weak and overshot, but I don't think there's enough evidence here to say BHVR genuinely made him overpowered on purpose.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
What a surprise, they released an overtuned Killer on purpose and are now adjusting him. This has nothing to do with Survivors complaining, it was their full intention to raise the sales by making him way too easy for what he achieves.
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922140#Comment_3922140
Fully agree. We’ve seen this happen with other killers in the past, so this seems like a pattern. Sell tons of DLCs with the excitement of an especially powerful killer, put up with survivor complaints for a little while, then nerf the killer to something that people probably wouldn’t have been all that excited about at initial launch.
I don't think this is a fair assessment at all. Of the last six killers previous to Kaneki, only two (Chucky and Xenomorph) were nerfed after release, and three of the remaining four (Houndmaster, Dracula, Vecna) released too weak and got buffed after release in some form. For completion's sake the one killer who basically wasn't changed until noticeably after release was Unknown.
Even the other big licenses in that pool, Vecna and Dracula, mostly got buffed with a few cooldown nerfs here and there, nothing like this. Equally, the two nerfs weren't even really like this; Xeno's change was pretty minor and Chucky's was a bit more in line but still nowhere as pronounced as how unbalanced Kaneki is/was.
There's clearly no pattern here, so I don't think you can say BHVR made Kaneki too strong on purpose. I think it was just a mistake they're correcting now.