jesterkind
jesterkind
About
- Username
- jesterkind
- Joined
- Visits
- 17,633
- Last Active
Comments
-
@tyler_oxide said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931989#Comment_3931989
Yes I was there for the initial release and as a Hag main, it actually made me quit the game and recently return. However, I had noticed it to be problematic on RPD particularly when sent there for a survivor with 4 boons. You can't track them on both floors of wherever they put it. Frankly, there is no reason they should be re-boonable. If a killer goes out of their way - meaning they leave a chase, go and travel to the boon, and then stomp it, and re-pick up a chase (lost a full chase and travel time for this) - it should not be re-boonable. Period.
There's a very good reason they should be reboonable: It's the entire purpose of the mechanic.
A radius of buffs that survviors spend time setting up, that the killer can disable with a quick animation, forcing them to go spend time setting it up again if they want the buff back. The whole interplay is supposed to be the survivors trying to get enough value out of it before it's snuffed to pay for the time spent setting it up.
There's supposed to be a sort of trap element to it. If you spend too long relighting boons, they're not giving you enough value to not be a detriment. There are definitely some maps boons are better on than others, and something like RPD does raise a legitimate question as to whether boons should go through floors, but there's no reason to consider Shattered Hope basekit. It doesn't make any logical sense from a game design perspective.
-
Hard disagree.
The only reason that effect was ever considered a good idea at all was because of CoH being too strong, the other boons not only aren't strong enough to warrant that, they're designed in such a way that it'd be completely counter-productive. Boons won't be a continual timesink for survivor if they aren't repeatedly blessing.
You're not wrong that the perk isn't worth it now, but that's just because you can't guarantee you'll face boons. It is nice to be able to delete the mechanic if you make the right read/guess that your opponents will have one of those perks, but that's not a good enough reason to keep the perk around.
It never should've existed in the first place, it should be fully reworked into something else.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
So many unaccounted factors and nuances. The topic is quite complex and confusing in terms of interpretation. What is tunneling? Everyone here will have their own understanding of what they mean by tunneling.
Your advice is quite vague. It lacks details and specifics. If you want to teach people to fish by giving them a fishing rod. You should specifically show with examples and tactics that this works with one nuance only against survivors who understand how to play this game. Since from the outside it looks like naive idealism at best. At worst, like sabotage for the entertainment of the surviving side.
After all, on the one hand, I believe you if the question concerns Blight, Hillbilly and other similar killers. Indeed, with due practice and desire, you can play without tunneling. I would even go further and say that they are balanced against SWF. Since when such killers come to a solo lobby, it looks like a massacre, not a game.
When the question concerns Trapper and his M1 team. He needs all the help and tactics he can get. Anything within the game that will bring victory. Despite the price that will have to be paid demonization, contempt and persecution from the survivor's side.
In general, what is real tunneling?
Real tunneling is mind games. Your job as a killer is to create a false sense of security by convincing the survivors that it is safe to save them. By striking at the most inopportune moment.
There is also double tunneling, when you simultaneously tunnel two survivors. Nemesis + Friends 'til the End + Alien Instinct + Furtive Chase or Leverage or Rancor.
Tunneling on 5 generators is more of a psychological tunneling, where your task is to undermine the morale of the tunneled unit and the team as a whole. I learned the last conclusion, oddly enough, while confronting toxic survivors. If you look at such survivors not as toxic people, but as tacticians. This is a simple tactic to morally dominate the killer so that he starts making mistakes, or better yet, gives up and hides in a corner. In a sense, a weapon that can be used to win. There is something to learn.
A little poetry about survivors, where would we be without them in this matter. Survivors are egoists who think only of themselves. One evening I finally managed to play with my friend in a duet for a survivor. Just in time for the release of Steady Pulse and the archive tasks for 55 escapes. My friend was interested in trying the build Borrowed Time + Babysitter + Duty of Care + Overcome. I was more focused on Bond and three healing perks for the effectiveness of another task.
It was the most pleasant evening with many escapes, where we even smiled ironically at Kaneki, who looks like an unlucky m1 joke, and not a killing machine as it is described here.
But why am I saying this? Babysitter this perk alone was enough to run away from any hapless tunneler in a straight line if he expressed a desire to make me his target. I spent enough time to make them regret it, provided that the others were holding m1 on the generator. If it weren't for the missions, I would have even played along with my friend by taking Babysitter. Although my build looked more like this Bond + Open-Handed + Kindred + Babysitter. After all, there is nothing more priceless than watching a proxy tunneler while the survivors are busy with m1 on the generator.
Unfortunately, the survivors lament more about Distortion than about the next Babysitter buff. After all, no one wants to take responsibility for themselves. After all, it's better to kill him than me...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931674#Comment_3931674
((Why is it that everyone assumes the opposite of tunnelling is "random" chases? I've never understood that.))
We are not exactly monsters. Personally, I am ready to play 12 hooks if it brings me kills. I think many people think the same way as I do. The problem is that I had games with 6-8 hooks in the game, but no one died in these games. At that moment I thought that I had not had a fun game, and somewhere I made a big mistake by not tunneling a survivor. Even 2 kills would have been fine for me, while 4 escapes are unacceptable.
I understand perfectly well that tunneling is not fun for survivors, but the end justifies the means. Killing survivors. If killing is impossible with 12 hooks. I will look for other ways to kill. Nothing personal, just business.
So my question to survivors is always what fun way would you like to die that would be enjoyable for you?
Well, this wasn't really a post about how I think people should play, so giving alternatives wasn't really within the scope of this specific post. I've considered making posts about how I see the basics of killer pressure, though, maybe I should do that sometime.
This post was solely about how I feel relying on tunnelling can harm you in the long run. Though, you're right that I probably should've given my definition of tunnelling in the post.
I clarified it a few posts down, but if you didn't see that- I define tunnelling as chasing someone who was just unhooked, nothing more nothing less.
-
@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931709#Comment_3931709
You have incredible patience. I couldn't have responded to as many posts as you have here while also remaining civil toward people who in some cases try to twist your meaning. Here's a trophy 🏆
Ha, I appreciate that. I try to keep a level head where possible!
-
As the user above me pointed out, while a few things have been nerfed here and there, the trajectory for killers overall has been buffs. And rightly so, to be clear! A lot of killers and killer tools even still need buffs, and there's no indication that'll slow down any time soon. Personally, I've been pretty pleased with the steady buffs to lesser-used and less-powerful killer options, and I think nerfing the egregious stuff at the same time is completely reasonable.
What I'd like to point out here myself is instead that you're taking the dev's words out of context in that livestream. When they say "killers get more love, survivors need a bit too", they're not speaking generally, they're talking about new shiny toys to play with. Killers get new releases with new powers and updates/reworks to existing ones, and survivors don't get any equivalent of that. Survivor gameplay is the same across all characters, there's no equivalent to a killer getting new toys in their individual basekit.
Remember, this was them talking about the new item, not balance changes. They're giving survivor players the kind of new toy that killer players tend to get more frequently, it wasn't actually specifically about balance.
-
@Anti051 said:
I've got 2 and a half minutes from the start to make a difference and I'm maining an M1 killer.
It doesn't matter if you're a fresh hook or got off 45 seconds ago, If I find you and have an opportunity to down you in a timely fashion, I'm going to try because I will lose the game if I don't.
Gens fly and I do not possess the power level of the blight or the nurse. I don't have time to care about what order anybody is hooked in.
Trying to spin it as a skill issue is ignorant and it's ridiculous to think that your feelings take precedence over what's fair in an asymmetrical scenario with a strict time constraint.
(Ugly truth disclaimer)
"I just got off the hook! It's someone else's turn! This feels bad for me! I don't care if there isn't time to think about my feelings! Think about them anyway you dirty, sweaty, no-skill loser!!! DEVS! MAKE THIS FEEL BETTER FOR ME! Asym-what? I don't give a s**t! MEEEE!"
I feel perhaps you're responding to the vague idea of tunnelling more than the actual post, here.
-
@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931677#Comment_3931677
What Kind of options are you wanting to provide killers that would effectively replace the need to tunnel once things are dire (such as all gens done, no kills yet)? If you have a suggestion that would be implemented to give them an alternative to focusing one survivor, I'd be happy to hear it. As for other forms of tunneling, such as just tunneling to tunnel from the get go, I personally dislike it. I think it's lame and ruins the fun of the match for others, and as you have pointed out, discourages actual healthy gameplay to hone actual skills such as gen and map pressure. An early tunnel is a cheap shot, imho. However, if we are abandoning tunneling, especially if forced by BHVR, killers need some sort of options in the middle to late game, especially the weaker m1 killers with no mobility that already struggle in the face of 4 man SWFs.
I mean, it sounds harsh, but the answer is honestly gonna be "don't get into that situation" a lot of the time.
I think the only real bone you can throw in this context is that most forms of anti-tunnel should probably disable when the gens are all done, I think most people can broadly get behind that. If the devs were to ever change Endurance to a loss of collision, changing it back to Endurance when the gates are powered would probably be reasonable.
Other than that, though, if the survivors put themselves in a situation that heavily advantaged, it pretty strongly implies the killer misplayed at several key junctures. At a certain point you should lose for poor play, right?
-
@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931546#Comment_3931546
I really see it as tunneling is dangerous to use as a blunt instrument to solve all issues. However, it can be a very useful and the most optimal tool in certain situations. So in general, you are correct that just focusing on tunneling hurts you in the long run, but we have to at least acknowledge that in certain circumstances it's the correct choice. Use it as a tool to supplement your games, not as a solution to all scenarios.
I'm not necessarily saying not to consider tunnelling a specific tool, but that is where the other half of the argument comes in.
Sure, right now it's a good tool to use in key moments- it's easy to do, hard to counter, and has a very good chance of giving massive value. It's good for turning games around if they're looking dicey.
However… those attributes are why it's unbalanced and why it's receiving changes. If these specific changes don't make it significantly less reliable, more will eventually come down the line. It's why I personally try not to rely on tunnelling even in those key moments, and why I think people who care about improving should probably do the same.
Again, though, play how you like. I'm not here to police anyone.
-
@Zuiphrode said:
I mostly play Trapper these days. What am I supposed to do if the same idiot barrels into one of my traps twice in a row? Stand there with my thumb up my ass? Let him bleed out?
I could answer that, but I'd like to prompt you to seriously, sincerely consider if this is what I was talking about in that post. Was that the context I had in mind?
-
@danielmaster87 said:
You're still not understanding that it's not the killer's fault. Their room to expand their skill and knowledge has in fact become shrunk, not by them tunneling, but by the unbalanced game state that forces them to tunnel. Hit and run, and going for random chases is great, and probably does a lot for your macro game sense. But it's not viable, and tunneling lets you develop macro game sense too. How hard do I need to tunnel, from what I've seen so far? Can I juggle 2 survivors' hooks, or do I literally not even have time for that?
And to me, which I thought was obvious, you can't be very good at tunneling if you're not good at chasing. It just makes no sense to say otherwise. "All this killer had to do was tunnel, and wasn't even good in chase, and he still beat us!" Doesn't that mean that you're the ones who aren't good? It's never made any sense, to say that a killer is bad for tunneling, but it's literally a strategy, and it hinges of getting quick enough downs consistently just to pull it off.
So for those reasons, I can't say tunneling is imbalanced. And I don't know what the devs could possibly do to make tunneling worse than going for random chases. They'd have to be like, "If you hook someone twice in a row, you give the survivors 100% faster gens" or something stupid like that. Because to me, what could possibly be more efficient than getting 1 survivor out, so that they're not a gen threat, and then going after the others? It makes no competitive sense to do otherwise. Therefore, if the devs do somehow manage to make tunneling the worse choice, they've essentially killed the game at that point. What is a killer to do against survivors who do 5 gens in 4 minutes? They used to have the ability to quickly down and kill (not anymore) or stall with gen defence (not anymore). What is 95% of the killer cast to do against 4 good survivors, who can do gens in like 8 minutes? Still, basically nothing.
And whatever the devs objectives are on making tunneling worse, they can never ever remove it. You cannot stop a killer from going after the same survivor multiple times, unless you make them literally invincible, but that would obviously be abusable (we kind of a have simplified version of that right now!).
Why is it that everyone assumes the opposite of tunnelling is "random" chases? I've never understood that.
Obviously you wouldn't go for random chases, you'd have a plan of some kind. Get a hook, go to a survivor you either already knew about or got revealed with a perk, occupy three survivors at once would be the obvious basic bread-and-butter, and you'd hardly call that random, it's very purposeful.
However, there's something else to point out as well, which is where you start talking about needing to be good in chase to tunnel people. Do you?
The chase you're taking when you tunnel someone has the following attributes:
- The survivor's guaranteed to start injured
- The survivor's guaranteed to start right next to you with no distance to capitalise on
- The survivor's got a good chance (but not guaranteed) to be starting in an area with few resources, since a chase just happened there
The chase is explicitly, objectively much easier for the killer. If it wasn't, people wouldn't tunnel, there wouldn't be a point. The whole point of doing it is that you have to exert much less skill, and your opponent has to exert much more. Why bother doing it otherwise?
Outside of perks, all the survivor has is ten seconds of Endurance, and that's pretty easy to circumvent. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still heavily stacked in the killer's favour.
As for what to do about it, that was outside the scope of this post, but for the record I support survivors losing collision on unhook. It'd be impossible to tunnel someone you can't hit, and it'd be impossible to bodyblock if you don't have collision. With a few extra tweaks, everyone wins.
-
@Demoth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931597#Comment_3931597
Killer has been pretty good in a lot of ways (depending on the killer) since launch, for sure.
That said, if you really want to know where balance lies, just look at competitions. There are a LOT of restrictions against survivors, and not many against killers, because once you get survivors who know how to play and work together, killer gets absolutely dumpstered.
Comp is its own thing and a radically different beast to the main game, there's not much you can really conclude from it if you want to understand the functional balance of the game.
-
@ToadMagic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931490#Comment_3931490
I disagree with a few things you said, and have a few points I'd like to discuss.
"Tunneling is unbalanced"
To preface this: yes, you can win games without tunneling, even in high MMR. However, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage by not tunneling at the moment, especially if people are not running some of the perks ill mention later.
It depends. Tunneling is definitely unbalanced on a few killers (blight, nurse, drac, singu, billy) but for most other killers on the roster, refraining from tunneling is a significant disadvantage leading to more losses, though tunneling by them isn't inherently 'broken.
"Tunneling is not necessary to perform well"
Again, it depends. You are absolutely not required to tunnel on the killers listed above to win, however, on the other 80% of the roster, it is for the most part tunnel or lose more. In low MMR, oftentimes chases are ending very quickly, and there is no need to tunnel. In low MMR the game is extremely killer sided as you can just run a bunch of regression and w key people while getting a down every 30seconds, use CI+pain res+pop+erupt and the games are extremely free. Its literally hard to lose. You cannot balance the game around new/learning players, though, just like you can't balance around the top 1%. There's a sweet spot.
This just is not the case in high MMR, though. Ppl know their checks, what loops are strong, how to properly chain together loops, what killers to predrop/prerun/etc and can generally play much more greedy because they know their limits. To consistently 2-4k on killer in high mmr (at least, on those 80% of killers that are not listed) you are oftentimes required to tunnel. Oftentimes in comp, you will see
There are several perks and items that are INSANELY good at countering tunneling right now - namely, resurgence, babysitter, borrowed time, DS, STB (and the obvious exhaustion perks) and a few items such as styptic/syringe which directly counter tunneling, and a few perks downright punish killers for doing so (like DS, BT, BS, STB). STB is straight broken and is undoubtably the best anti-tunneling perk in the game (its not close, I would argue its the best non-exhaustion perk in the entire game.)
The problem arises when people are not using the tools available to them. Oftentimes, zero people in pubs are running BT, BS, or STB because they're all playing the greediest builds imaginable or playing meme builds. I'll often run STB+BS in soloq because I'm confident that I can get the killer to drop chase and ignore me, and the amount of games that those perks singlehandedly win games is staggering. I've found communicating you're running BS in the lobby can make a significant difference.
Honestly, I love the suggestion OP made with rewarding unique hooks. This could cause the majority of tunneling to stop and would absolutely free up a perk slot to run something that isn't regression. I could definitely understand buffing basekit BT a bit if this went through though, maybe by 2 or 3 seconds, to push people more towards unique hooks. The suggestion you made for basekit BT+BS+No collision would be absolutely busted without giving killers something basekit and would punish the weaker killers much more than the ones that are actually broken - which would widen the gap even more between the very strong mobility killers and everyone else.
It isn't much different than giving survivors basekit mini-BT a few years ago, and if properly balanced, would make the game better for both sides.
In order:
1: It's unbalanced no matter who does it because of the nature of what you get when you do it.
You could pick Trapper, run zero perks, ignore your power entirely, and tunnelling would still be unbalanced. It probably wouldn't be unbalanced enough for you to still win, but the fact remains that if someone starts the chase on an insane back foot because they're injured, out of position, and not near any resources… that's unbalanced.
The thing that causes the imbalance isn't how good the killer is, it's how much effort it takes to stack the chase in your favour vs how much effort the opponent has to put in to counter you.
2: Splitting your second response up into three here because you cover a couple points, this bullet point is for not needing to tunnel to perform well.
Again, it's really not different across MMR brackets save for how easy it is. Sure, survivors at a high level know their checkspots, they know where the good loops are, they know the killer counterplay… but proportionally, killers at a high level should know those things as well, and how to deal with them.
If your climb to higher levels (assuming any person commenting actually is there, obviously) was spent honing the fundamentals, sure, high level survivors can still make you sweat, but it's not "leverage this one specific imbalance or lose". Killer has a lot of agency in this state of the game.
3: This bullet point is for the perks that help against tunnelling.
Broadly, I agree anti-tunnel is probably in the best state now it's ever been (though that's not saying much), but there's still a few things to mention here. The first is, it's very hard to coordinate and use anything altruistic in solo queue, so that narrows the viable pool down considerably, and second is that it's broadly not great to have to run very specific perks every single match just in case the killer decides to try to tunnel otherwise you lose by default.
The power should be shifted away from perks and coordination, and towards just not letting that chase be easy to begin with.
4: This bullet point is about the loss of collision punishing lower tier killers harder.
I mean… it doesn't? It's still not a punishment no matter what way you slice it. They just can't tunnel to begin with and there's nothing that'll harm them about that. It can't be leveraged against them in any way, so there's really no harm here.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931546#Comment_3931546
That is incorrect. You can’t just make up criteria, and then tell people they are wrong if they don’t follow your criteria. We don’t need to follow your criteria.
Tunneling is still effective at high MMR, and is still very often the optimal strategy at high MMR. That is a fact.
…What?
In the previous set of messages, I reminded you that you can't say something is the equivalent of my claim without it fitting my criteria, I'm not trying to exert my opinion onto other people. I'm just reminding you of what my opinion actually was when you tried to compare something to it.
To briefly address the last part: Yes, it is. It's still effective, and it's even still effective enough to win consistently. My point is that if you don't learn how to play without it, even tunnelling gets harder and more stressful, because the opponents you face are going to be more capable of answering it and you won't have anything else to fall back on. You'll win, but the games will be much less enjoyable.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931544#Comment_3931544
That is incorrect. Tunneling is still effective at high MMR, which we know of true because killer streamers tunnel when doing huge win streaks, and if anyone in the game is high MMR, it’s the players that literally win hundreds of games in a row.
Both of the things I mentioned combined are what would make it not optimal, not just facing stronger opponents.
Though, for the average player, tunnelling does get weaker as they face stronger opponents. If that's all they rely on, their games will get harder and more stressful, because they have to keep tunnelling but their margin for error in how long it takes gets smaller and smaller.
-
@Zuiphrode said:
What a load of crap. 99% of the time when someone gets 'tunnelled' it's because I either randomly run into them or because someone went for an unhook while I'm still in the area of the hook. You're not going to gaslight me into making bad gameplay decisions when attacking the already injured person is clearly the optimal choice.
It's the optimal choice now. As you face stronger opponents and as it inevitably gets balance changes, it'll stop being optimal, so it's safer not to rely on it.
If you don't care about that, by all means, keep tunnelling. I'm not policing anyone (and "gaslighting" is an insanely inappropriate term to use here either way), I'm giving advice for a specific perspective.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931536#Comment_3931536
What you’re saying about tunneling is incorrect, because you don’t know if BHVR will ever make anti-tunneling changes that are so drastic that killers would be at a severe disadvantage if they tunnel.
Also, if severe anti-tunneling changes are made, it will lower the kill rates so much that killers would get major help to play the game without tunneling.
Alright, happy to talk about this instead.
So, while I can't see the future, it seems unavoidable to me that one of two things will happen:
1: BHVR continue to make incremental changes to tunnelling, like they have been so far
2: BHVR make one big swing to take tunnelling out of the game entirely.
Either way, at some point, tunnelling will reach a point where it's no longer a cheap and easy way to gain value. It doesn't have to be because of the big swing - the smaller incremental changes will get there eventually.
(Also, that's only one of the two reasons, the other one is more immediately relevant. One affects you now, one affects you in the future.)
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931416#Comment_3931416
No. I don’t need to go for your specific requirements.
SWFs are the survivor equivalent of camping and tunneling because they meet the same criteria:
- Players can become dependent on it, and therefore struggle without it.
- It provides a lot of value, but takes less skill to do.
- Many players can still win games without it.
- Many players consider it an unfair advantage.
…You do when you're answering my position, my friend. It's my position, of course I set the framing for it.
I honestly shouldn't have gone this long with this train of thought, it doesn't actually matter. Whether SWF counts as well or not, that doesn't affect what I'm saying about tunnelling.
-
I think there are a couple things missing from this rundown, and I think they'd affect the conclusion pretty heavily so I think they're worth bringing up. I can respect the intent here for sure, but there are three things I'd like to mention. I'll list them bullet-point style, then I'll go more in depth on each one.
The things that are missing from this rundown are:
- Tunnelling is unbalanced.
- Tunnelling is not necessary to perform well
- Positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement aren't the only options available
So, in order.
First, tunnelling is unbalanced. This is a pretty obvious point, but I find it tends to get lost somewhere whenever people take these big-picture views about the game. Tunnelling offers the killer a much easier chase by targeting the survivor that was just on the hook, because that survivor is
- Injured
- Out of position (IE, you start the chase right on top of them)
- Likely to be in an area where resources were just used
This is relevant because it's why tunnelling is seen as the most efficient route forward even though it's actually quite inefficient on paper- it takes very little effort to do and quite a lot of effort to counter. This is one of the most central elements of tunnelling, conceptually, it should be front and centre in discussions like these.
Second, tunnelling isn't necessary to perform well. This might seem like it's not relevant from the game design perspective, but bear with me. Simply providing potent bonuses to players who spread their hooks around will make players who already perform perfectly well skyrocket in effectiveness, and might make them feel pretty unbearable to face. Killer isn't hurting right now, this kind of buff is going to affect the game's balance in a major and pretty negative way.
Now, I don't like to just shoot down ideas without providing alternatives if I can help it, which is why the third point is also very important.
Third, there are more options than positive and negative reinforcement. People often assume a false binary here- either the killer needs to be punished with lengthy stuns and obnoxious tools, or rewarded with objective balance buffs and potent effects for doing something else. This overlooks the much cleaner and simpler solution: Make it impossible to actually do without negatively affecting the killer.
You actually brought up the best way of doing this in your post, it doesn't require anything else. Replace Endurance from being unhooked (+ probably from the perks Off The Record and Borrowed Time as well, honestly) with a loss of collision. Suddenly it's impossible for the killer to focus that survivor because they flat out cannot be hit, but they're also not being punished with stuns, longer chases, bodyblocking, or any of the other negative associations people currently have with anti-tunnel.
Don't get me wrong, a few extra things would need to change - I'd probably recommend disabling item use until the intangibility wears off, so survivors can't coordinate unbeatable flashlight saves - but in general, lessening the effectiveness of tunnelling by making it difficult to start attempting would be a much more natural push towards engaging with the game's broader skill expression. Pair that with the kind of basic, generic buffs BHVR have been making consistently for the past few years and you've got the best way to solve tunnelling as an issue. Everyone wins- survivors don't get tunnelled, killers don't have to deal with obnoxious bodyblocking or other weaponised tools, and things can be buffed more safely without those problems getting in the way.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931396#Comment_3931396
Voice comms heavily stunts the growth of situational awareness. Survivors can just voice comm where the killer is, or where the other survivors are, or where a generator is that needs to be repaired.
- If a survivor is injured and needs to find a teammate, instead of needing situational awareness of where the other survivors are, a SWF player can just use voice comms to find other teammates.
- If a survivor is being chased by the killer, instead of needing situational awareness of where the other survivors are, so they don't accidently bring the chase to a generator that is being worked on, a SWF player can just use voice comms to figure out what areas of the map they should avoid bringing the killer to.
- If a survivor doesn't know where the killer is, instead of needing situational awareness of what general area the killer is in, a SWF player can often use voice comms to just tell each other where the killer is.
- If a generator has a lot of progress, and a teammate is chased off of it, instead of needing situational awareness of where this generator is, so you can help repair it, a SWF player can use voice comms to directly tell each other where the generator is.
A player using voice comms can become reliant on them, and might claim solo q "is miserable" because they don't know how to navigate the game without voice comms.
That's one of the criteria. Really, it's half of one, because it's "stunts growth" but it's not "in ways that will make the game harder as you face tougher opponents", which is the full criteria.
What it's not is something that sees good results only against unprepared/unskilled opponents, and it's also not something that is very clearly one specific balance problem that's inevitably going to be addressed.
You're acting like I'm saying you shouldn't ever bring tools or perform actions that give you an advantage of any kind, but that's not the position. This is about tunnelling, specifically, and the specific position it holds within the game. I don't think you should rely on that, specifically, for the reasons that I actually laid out.
You're also not addressing that a player in a SWF won't necessarily ever need to play solo queue, so the growth it potentially stunts (I think your points are overblown, but that's besides the point here) doesn't necessarily ever have to matter. When I say it stunts growth to rely on tunnelling, you will end up dealing with the consequences, because it doesn't require you to start playing in a different way to see it.
You're only hitting half of one of the three criteria and you're also insisting on a lateral shift being the same as a linear progression. Remember: It has to work extremely well against the unprepared, be weaker but still strong against prepared opponents, and be in legitimate danger of being changed, to be equivalent to what I'm saying here.
-
@Jock21 said:
You should take up your own advice and improve at the game yourself instead of dictating other people how to play for your benefit/comfort.
I play killer.
Also, this isn't dictating. This is advice.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931386#Comment_3931386
Voice comms are the survivor equivalent of camping and tunneling.
You're gonna need to back that one up, my man.
How do voice comms fit into the framework I just laid out?
-
@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931380#Comment_3931380
Tunneling is part the game, it’s under the fundamental skill of target priority. You don’t value this skill, you think it’s cheap. That is your opinion.
It doesn’t matter in the end, if you improve in one area it’s going to lead to wins and you will have at some point to be good at all fundamentals.I'm not speaking out against target prioritisation. There's nothing wrong with that.
When I say "tunnelling", I mean chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked. That's the thing I'm talking about here.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931381#Comment_3931381
Really? Being in a SWF, and having access to voice comms, where players can coordinate healing, or warn each other where the killer is…. doesn’t create bad habits that make survivors less likely to survive in solo q?
That's not the criteria for being an equivalent here. In order for it to be a survivor equivalent, three things need to be true. It needs to be something that:
- Provides short term results against players that aren't equipped to deal with it, but,
- Stunts long-term growth in such a manner that you'll start to flounder when you reach a level where opponents know what to do about it, and,
- Leverages a fundamental imbalance such that it being nerfed/addressed eventually is an inevitability even if it takes a long time.
Just playing in a SWF doesn't really meet these criteria. You're still playing the game straightforwardly, you're just taking the extra RNG of solo queue teammates out, you're not really exploiting any cheap imbalances, people are going to become more capable of dealing with you in a broad sense instead of the specific thing you're doing, and there's no reason to assume nerfs would ever come down the line because it's not an obvious fundamental balance issue.
You're trying to cross two lines here, which is that the habits built in SWF won't apply in solo queue… but that's a lateral shift, not a linear progression. Relying on tunnelling will, without any adjustments at all on your part, raise you to a point where tunnelling becomes all you know how to do, it's a straight linear progression. If people in a SWF just don't play solo queue, there's no reason their habits would become negative. They'd just keep working, because they're just playing the game.
Again, the survivor equivalent would've been something like old Dead Hard, which met all those criteria. Currently, it's hard to point to any one specific thing, but the most unbalanced thing a survivor can bring into the trial is a toolbox build, so it'd probably be that.
(Though, if the whole team's doing toolbox builds, the notion that more skilled opponents can beat it doesn't really apply)
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
Does "If You Play Survivor, SWF Is Against Your Best Interests" work too?
There's no reason it would.
If you want a survivor equivalent, it'd be relying on toolbox builds, I guess? There isn't as much a clear survivor analogue anymore because there are fewer specific individual things to point to. If you'd asked me three years ago, I'd have said relying on Dead Hard would be the equivalent.
-
@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931359#Comment_3931359
And how do you improve ? By facing difficult survivors, not hindering yourself with stupid rules from the survivor rule book.
By honing the fundamentals and not taking shortcuts, mostly.
Again, this advice isn't for everyone. If you don't care about the arguments I laid out, totally fine. I'm not trying to police anyone.
-
@GentlemanFridge said:
I think the main thing is that some players that keep tunnelling do not care about improving. Some of them are actively looking for cheap wins, and don’t care that it’s cheap.
The whole ‘you’re not gonna improve’ is simply lost on them.
It's less "You won't improve" as its own caution, and more "You're going to make your games harder for yourself because you're not improving but the opponents you're facing are".
The thing I'm trying to convey is that in the long term it makes the game more frustrating and difficult.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931190#Comment_3931190
I think there's a very broad middle ground between just wanting to generally get better and beat the players you're matched with, and getting so invested that you're joining the comp scene.
I simply think that said middle ground is a breeding ground for mediocrity & frustration for a lot of people, and if you want to get truly good at DbD (for some reason) you need to engage with those options I mentioned, because there is an ever growing playerbase that is doing those things right now, every day, and you will face said people in pubs due to how MMR works. And this includes new players who are being subjected to the realities of modern DbD from the get-go, many of which who are younger & more inclined to take the game seriously & have the reflexes & brain space to adapt. The what I'd call "face value content creator approach" of getting good at DbD isn't really good enough anymore unless you're already naturally talented. Which ties into the next point.
This advice is more for those who just say they tunnel because it's how you win. The feedback for them is, not in the long run. In the long run you're making games harder for yourself.
If someone isn't savvy enough to quickly realize that hard tunneling at the start of the match isn't necessarily ideal then I don't think giving the advice "don't tunnel and you'll get better" is going to be particularly useful for them. Because at that point a lot of people I think can understand what you mean by hard tunneling leading to bad habits, but the people who need that advice need better guidance than that. And I think disregarding tunneling entirely and painting it as a no-no strat can also lead to bad habits and worse play.
And yes, tunneling and macro very much do go hand in hand. Otherwise tunneling wouldn't be so prevalent in comp (yes I know they have their own rules and restrictions that make tunneling more desirable), and wouldn't be seen as being this hyper effective thing that everyone hates on. It's all about the contextual realities of the map, match, & players + perks you're up against.
To me it just feels like this is the endgame philosophy of the anti-tunnel position, to ignore the nuances of higher play and make it out like it's somehow a bad idea for players to even consider that a tool/strategy might be effective in some situations just because it is deathly unfun to face for most people & can be misused by lower skill players to the point where it can build bad habits & cost them the game against better (and/or better equipped) players. If anything I think there's an argument to be made that tunneling better players can potentially help one develop more skill in the chase department, and that if you end up tunneling a bad player and winning off of it, you probably weren't going to learn much from that match that you don't already know anyway.
I suppose my questions are: how is someone supposed to know when tunneling is or isn't a bad thing to do to get results if they don't try it? And isn't saying "don't tunnel, you'll be a worse player in the long run" just as far away from the truth as saying "tunneling will always make you win"?
To address the last few sections there, I think some people have developed a sort of warped understanding of the position tunnelling holds in this game.
It's only considered a tool to use tactically in key moments because of its imbalance. If chasing the person who just got unhooked wasn't easier/faster, they wouldn't be the obvious target, you wouldn't be getting any extra value out of them that you can use to turn the game around.
If it were just as fast/easy to chase them as it would be the unhooker, or someone else entirely, there's no reason you'd target them. If it were harder/slower to chase them, you'd actively choose someone else. It's only in the killer's toolkit as a tool to use in specific circumstances because it's unbalanced, not because it's actually fundamentally sound play.
That's why I bring up that it's going to eventually get changed to the point of not working that way anymore, at some point in the future. If you rely on tunnelling as a thing you can use at the right moments, then when tunnelling stops working in that role you're going to be flying without a safety net. It's better to just try and avoid it if you want to improve.
Obviously, I'm not saying throw the match to avoid someone that runs into you or anything, this isn't something I'm recommending you stress over at every second of the match. Just try to chase the unhooker or not even be near the hook to begin with by default, and you'll build better habits.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
idk, if you care about long term results, what you do is get involved in the comp scene, do 1v1s, review your gameplay/have others review it, etc. I don't think "don't tunnel" is good advice for someone who wants to win, as tunneling is a tactic that goes hand in hand with macro. I guess it's good advice for people who care about vague concepts of honor & sportsmanship, but as someone intimately familiar with the invasion aspect of the souls community that's a whole can of worms that this community isn't ready to discuss.
I think there's a very broad middle ground between just wanting to generally get better and beat the players you're matched with, and getting so invested that you're joining the comp scene.
This advice is more for those who just say they tunnel because it's how you win. The feedback for them is, not in the long run. In the long run you're making games harder for yourself.
As an aside, tunnelling is the inverse to macro fundamentals. You do it to ignore the macro at first, and then autopilot the macro very easily once someone's dead. They very much don't go hand in hand.
-
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931165#Comment_3931165
I think I just worded myself badly. I don't disagree with your logic at all on the 'long term' side of things, I suppose I just don't agree that it's something we should try to push people away from either meaning I don't think it's necessarily against a killer player's best interests if that makes sense.
That's not meant to be a "let people play how they want" type response though since I genuinely think it's something people should learn and shouldn't be stigmatised in the way it is because it creates a lot of unnecessary hostility in the community imo. If a Killer tunnels me, I take it as they just really want to win and that's that.
It sucks sometimes but it's the nature of the game right?
It's not like survivors are pushed away from tactics/playstyles/perks that give them short term wins at the cost of long term improvement. Not meant to be a 'us vs them' complaint, I genuinely think it's a good comparison. Instead of learning map tiles or surveying their surroundings, nah just slap on Windows. Why not? It's objectively easier and I wouldn't fault survivors for doing it.
Well, nobody's actually being pushed away from these strategies, I'm just one person.
My personal recommendation is not to tunnel if you want longterm results, I'd make the same posts about survivor tactics if I were more immersed in that role.
-
@Brokenbones said:
I'm sorry but I strongly and heavily disagree. The killers who play to win from minute one, no holds barred will tunnel relentlessly and if the survivors aren't ready for it/good enough to finish a game in a 3v1 scenario - they lose. Straight up.
I understand your argument that doing this means you don't learn macro play, or splitting pressure; and so on. I agree, if a new player learning Killer just tunnels nonstop and doesn't learn these things it will hinder them but that's not the issue with tunnelling. The issue with tunnelling is once you know these things, it becomes objectively the easiest way to win a match.
Secure a hook, proxy them to 2nd stage if you can then tunnel them out immediately after. Slowdown perks will buy you enough time to do this usually. Most solo Q teams will fold to this strat because they either don't have enough gens done by this point or throw trying to protect the person being tunnelled.
As for the 2nd point about it being unbalanced/getting changes - I'd say be very careful what you wish for because there's two sides to these issues and more often than not a lot of Killer's end up tunnelling because the survivors did 3 gens super quickly and the Killer needs to push the match back toward their favour by making it a 3v1. If Killers can no longer do this at all, killrates will probably plummet for a lot of the cast. Imo at least.
I'm not sure I understand why that's disagreeing with me?
Yes, it's currently objectively the easiest way to win a match. My point about it stunting growth for the fundamentals is that you'll rise to a point where survivors start being able to put up a legitimate defence, and while it's still going to be a very strong strategy, it becomes much less comfortable and a lot more stressful. You'll be boxed in, and you'll need to rely on tunnelling where before you would've had the room to mess up more.
As for the last point, I somewhat doubt that, but it's a little outside the scope of this post. The only thing to point out is the obvious reminder that three gens being done in your first chase is actively on the roadmap as something getting addressed.
-
@crogers271 said:
As @Shroompy says, what exactly do we mean by tunneling? This is one of those things that tend to derail these conversations. To me it means that the first survivor the killer hooks, they target above all other priorities.
On the other hand, if the killer came across three survivors who just finish a heal, one is on two hooks, the other two on one hook, and he targeted the two hook survivor I wouldn't call that tunneling and, all else being equal, is the right decision.
Agree on the game fundamentals. It would be incredibly easy for a new player on Wraith, to target the first player they find, after hook cloak and wait nearby, rush in after the save. They'd probably win a lot of their games until they improved in MMR, then they'd complain about 'good' survivors.
I think one of the primary reasons not to tunnel is that it now adds a huge luck component to the game. Did the survivor you pick / the rest of the team have anti-tunnel builds? You have no way to know that before you begin the tunnel process, and if they do, you're in huge trouble.
The definition of tunnelling I use is simply "Chasing the survivor who was just/very recently unhooked". Target prioritisation on any survivor that's had time to reset and get away from the hook isn't tunnelling as far as I'm concerned.
That definition gets at the meat of the problem much quicker, and also generally reflects the gameplay people most often complain about.
Usually this is done to get them dead as quick as possible, but I'd argue you're still tunnelling if you only get them to second hook, or only from second hook to dead. The problematic elements - leveraging extreme vulnerability on the survivor's part for an easy to attempt but difficult to counter strategy - remain in those circumstances.
-
@Brimp said:
So if tunneling gets any significant changes I play the next best thing. Top 5 of roster. Why subject myself to the fundamentally weak killers just for them to be made weaker? Because I doubt BHVR would go as far as making the punishment less harsh for certain killers. Also playing the game is not the only way to learn/get better DBD. Coaches in sports are considered great at them even if they never played more than a couple professional games in their lives.
I've played plenty of games where I simply watched good gameplay and listened to people and as was automatically good at it when I started playing.Sure, play who you like. If you aren't comfortable with the weaker killers, don't play them, that's completely up to you.
Though, I will say this, there are skills in most games - including DBD - that you don't learn just by watching other people. In this game, keeping track of where survivors likely are really only comes from a lot of firsthand experience, just as an example. There's definitely a degree to which you do need to hone your own skills actively to improve.
You get an edge from knowing some core elements and maybe a few knowledge checks going in, but that only gets you so far.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
1. If you go into every match with the "i will tunnel asap" mentality then yes, it will hinder your game learning capabilities because you will eventually run into teams that will hardcore punish you for even attempting to tunnel and you will probably end up with 0k in most cases.
2. Tunneling ISN'T unbalanced and it comes directly from my previous statement. Tools against tunneling are stronger than they've ever been and tunneling in average pub matches should almost always be a dead end. Even in comp matches where some of the strongest anti-tunnels (OTR, Babysitter and StB) are banned and you will usually have only one survivor that actually runs DS and DH, tunneling is severely punished and killer can tunnel only if survivors make a mistake.
Let's be real for once, idk what region you are playing on but it definitely gives totally wrong feedback about tunneling.
Your first statement is just agreeing with me, it doesn't lead to contesting my points at all. If all you do is tunnel (or if you rely heavily on tunnelling, it isn't all-or-nothing), you'll eventually face teams that are better at the game than you to the degree that they can punish your attempts at tunnelling well.
At that point, you won't know how to beat them, because you aren't actually as good as them at any fundamental skills, and you'll need to learn the game from scratch again.
That doesn't mean tunnelling isn't unbalanced, it just means it isn't so overwhelmingly broken that anyone can beat the top players with it. If you're facing people even remotely within your skill level it's definitely unbalanced.
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931020#Comment_3931020
But it’s exactly what people are saying….
When slugging is frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge deal and should be fixed. But when slugging is frustrating for killers (I.e. survivors are forcing the killer to slug), it’s “not as bad” and doesn’t need to be fixed.
If generator speeds are frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge deal and should be fixed. But when generator speeds are frustrating for killers, they are told “it’s not even real gen rushing”, that it’s a fake problem, and doesn’t need to be fixed.
If tunneling is frustrating for survivors, it’s a big huge problem that needs to be fixed, but if killers are frustrated that survivors are weaponizing anti-tunnel stuff, then it’s “not as bad” and doesn’t need to be fixed.
I think you're conflating a few things here that aren't really directly comparable.
For your first example, I question who actually says that most of all. I feel like if you ask about like, unhookable builds, most people will probably agree those are annoying and should be fixed, right? Killers excessively slugging would obviously be the higher priority, but both would be problems.
I guess maybe if "killers are forced to slug" is meant to mean like, someone went for a sabo play so you drop the survivor, sure, that's obviously not a problem, but I don't want to assume that is what you meant.
For your second example, you're definitely conflating things. The distinction for "real genrushing" comes from people who disagree that the term should just refer to survivors who do generators normally, not from people who are complaining about gen speeds on the survivor side. Those are two wholly different conversations happening at wholly different times.
I do also want to point out, killer gen speed complaints are actually also getting fixes in this roadmap. That's what survivors spawning together every time is. What a lot of killer players need to hear, though, is that slowing down generators is their job and the game gives them plenty of chance to do that right now.
For the last example… I feel like this one is also just a thing most people aren't saying, right? I think most people are broadly on board with the idea that anti-tunnel needs to be better but less weaponisable?
You'll see people pointing out only Endurance can be weaponised, but that's not the same thing.
-
@radiantHero23 said:
A win condition not based on kills and escapes but performance during a trial.
Out of curiosity, how would you imagine that kind of change would be implemented?
Changing the win condition seems like a massive deal to me.
-
@angrychuck said:
My dream balance change for this game is for BHVR to realize that maybe pig doesn't need to be nerfed and in fact maybe even needs to be buffed.
They've been buffing Pig for like five years straight at this point, I think they figured it out.
If you don't count removing the aura of boxes, the last time Pig was nerfed was in 2019.
-
Oh, that's a very cute gimmick, I'm into that.
I wonder, does 2v8 count for this? I already play Medic, I could probably tick this up noticeably just by myself lmao
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929380#Comment_3929380
So kinda what happens in 2v8 when your aura is being read by the killer with the addition of what you said of it lighting up.
They have to have LOS though for this to work currently with spine chill?
Thank you for explaining!
Yeah, the perk currently gives action speed to repair and cleansing and stuff, but only when the killer has LoS on you. It's not worthless but it's also pretty undertuned, in my opinion.
Changing it to a perk that tracks auras would be a much healthier niche.
-
Hard agree, there's really no downside to letting them continue to truck away out of sight now that the work's done to change the buttons around.
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929369#Comment_3929369
Fair enough! Great point!
Also spinechill! Tell me about it? Do you still use it? Can it be useful? I have never tried it before and I don’t know what this perk is or how it benefits the survivor.
Spine Chill's current effect is that it lights up if the killer's got line of sight on you within a certain distance, and while it's lit up, you get a small action speed bonus to certain actions including generator repair. It's not great, and while you could buff those effects to make it a "finish specific actions in the killer's face" perk, I'd rather move it to anti-aura.
My proposal from a while back is the following. Scrap the current effects, and instead:
- When the killer is reading your aura, Spine Chill lights up and plays an audio cue. For the duration of the aura reveal and for 3/4/5 seconds afterwards, your grunts of pain are suppressed.
The idea being, it'd be a tool for tracking what the killer has and when you're being revealed, plus a small extra effect to let it scale with perk tiers. That part wouldn't be that impactful, but it'd be a cute thematic thing- a chill runs up your spine, and you hold your breath…
Crucially, the perk's icon should only be lit up while you're revealed, so the extra effect doesn't hinder the information gain.
-
I think that's a great idea for a perk - I've championed Spine Chill doing this for months - but it'd be far, far too much for a basekit feature. I'm not usually one for hyperbole, but I think in this specific instance it's fair to say this would kill auras used to surprise or sneak up stone dead, and that's a good chunk of value from a lot of aura perks.
I think it's broadly fair when specific perks give themselves away, either in the one-time popup that shows when you're first affected, or in the fact that they do something else that serves as a warning like the Oblivious on Alien Instinct. Handling aura tells this way allows some aura perks to still be sneaky, which is healthier overall for the game's variety.
It's also not really a solo queue suggestion, this benefits solo queue and SWF pretty much equally. If you want to be really mean you could say it helps SWF more, since they can call out single-target aura perks to their team.
-
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3929102#Comment_3929102
First of all trapper was S-tier only one time in history of dbd and that was when he was only playble killer in the game. Trapper with strongest addons is nowhere near S-tier and him destroying swfs and survivors in general is because survivors are making mistakes. Trapper only works if survivors are making mistakes, thats when his power works and shines.
What we know as last message fron devs they wont buff him, they like his killrates and want him to be character for new players( every content creator or an experienced player will recomend wraith, legion, doctor).
The devs haven't said they won't buff Trapper, they said they don't want to fundamentally rework Trapper because he already performs pretty well (which I interpret to mean "we don't want to make him an absolute monster for lower MMR brackets") and because him working the way he does is good for the game's "tutorial" killer.
This isn't a pedantic distinction because not only did the devs buff Trapper after giving that AMA answer you're referring to, they said they'd buff Trapper in that message itself. It's absolutely possible for Trapper to be buffed in accordance with what the devs expressed.
Just, y'know, don't hold out hope for a Freddy/Skull Merchant tier rework. They don't want to do that, specifically. Personally, I think it's completely possible to help Trapper out within that framework.
-
@drag27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928981#Comment_3928981
Yea but survivors believe they shouldnt have to adapt and evolve. They believe that killers should just not tunnel at all or use any strategies.
"Me dumb killer, me chase survivor without downing them for whole match, me no need powers or addons or perks or strategies cause me dumb killer"
Not specifically tunnelling doesn't translate to never using any strategies. It usually translates to playing to the fundamental skill expression of killer and outplaying your opponents instead of leaning on something unbalanced.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928920#Comment_3928920
1. Anti-tunneling perks (OTR, DS, Babysitter etc.)
2. Greeding hooks if you know hooked person is bad in chases (hooked person >>> dead person)
3. Chase knowledge (this one easily wastes so much time for killer)
With all 3 of these, tunneling is simply impossible unless you make a grave mistake as survivor. All in all, to effectively counter a tunneling killer you need to do the same thing you do against camping killers, waste their time as much as possible.
The main problem of average soloQ survivor is the "i see hooked survivor, i go insta unhook" mindset, and with that kind of mindset you shouldn't be surprised when killer manages to force an early 3v1.
I appreciate the answer.
But, we do have to put some caveats on those if we want to be fair. In solo queue, you can't rely on Babysitter, you can only rely on DS and OTR. That brings the list of perks down to just two, but really, the number doesn't matter because it's obviously bad for either side to genuinely need to run perks or they lose by default.
For the other two, I'll tackle the last one first - chase knowledge in this case isn't as important as actually having chase skill, which is a different statement and one I already made my counter points to up above. It is, unavoidably, a pretty big imbalance for a very easy tactic to have very difficult counterplay.
Greeding hooks I'll potentially grant you, in the sense that it's more of a game sense thing and even though you can't rely on it in solo queue it's more fair to consider that the "sometimes your teammates throw" kind of universal solo queue problem. However, it is important to note that greeding hooks alone doesn't beat tunnelling, and only even kinda works in solo queue if the killer's also camping the hook. If they're already in a chase and just want to double back when the unhook happens, greeding the hook is just sort of the same risk it usually is and doesn't really solve anything that makes tunnelling problematic, which is all centred around the vulnerability immediately after the unhook.
If you plan to leave someone on the hook until the last second in solo queue, and your teammate in chase goes down sooner than you expect, your attempt at countering tunnelling potentially lost you the game. Granted, this is one of those things that's just going to be true of solo queue no matter what, but with tunnelling's major problems actually laying in the immediate, micro gameplay elements, I think it's probably fair to leave that part as it is and focus on the major problems.
-
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928934#Comment_3928934
idk what to tell you, its balanced out by the fact that 99% of the killers who do tunnel and need to tunnel like m1 killers will eat ######### against a player that knows how to counter it and it will result in a loss. there are plenty of strategies in every game that are easy to perform but if your opponent knows how to counter it it will screw you over and they'll get the win
Alright, man.
I've made my point, I think we're just going in circles here.
-
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928931#Comment_3928931
when youre new to the game, you die alot. some strategies require skill to beat and new players don't have that. don't see this complained about in any other competitive game
Absolutely, in most multiplayer games there are strategies that require skill to beat.
In most other competitive games, the amount of skill required is proportional to the amount of skill your opponent is putting in. Some scrub-killer things are fairly easy to perform, but they're also typically not that difficult to counter either once you know what the trick is.
That's why tunnelling gets the complaints. There's no trick, and the skill required to beat it is extremely disproportional to the skill required to do it.
You don't have to be a Master rank tournament winner to beat E Honda's headbutt. It's a knowledge check, not actually massively unbalanced.
-
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928927#Comment_3928927
no, it is not unbalanced, because if you become skilled enough and can do it then it causes the killer to lose the game. next question
What about before you're skilled enough? When you're just average at the game like everyone else, should you just be expected to lose by default until you're out the other end in the top ranks of players so you actually get to play the game?
There's a degree to which scrub-killer knowledge checks can be reasonable in a game, but it should be within your power to counter them if you actually have the knowledge, which you can't with tunnelling. The killer just gets a massively easy chase on you… end of sentence. There's no "but you can do X". You just have to be better than them by orders of magnitude.
-
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928923#Comment_3928923
no u silly billy… that's how countering something works…. and if you counter it the killer loses the entire game because ur teammates do generators while you fend of the tunneling POS. and both sides need to run certain perks, just like the killer has to run gen slowdown, this is not old news
Well, that wasn't the question, though.
The question is, if the counterplay is significantly harder for you to perform than it is for your opponent to do the thing you're trying to counter, is that not unbalanced? Additionally, if the counterplay requires specific perks on top of being difficult to perform even with them, is that not unhealthy for the game's variety and player expression?
Those are the two questions being asked here. Hell, if you think the killer needs to run gen slowdown, surely you can understand how that's not great for the game and should be adjusted.
-
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928920#Comment_3928920
the counterplay is called getting better in chase and running either DS or off the record instead of just joining the bandwagon of people who try to imply that tunneling is the most overpowered and heinous thing in the entire game
I've never understood this argument. Isn't it obvious that you're agreeing it's unbalanced and needs changes?
I mean, survivors have to be significantly better in chase to beat tunnelling than the killer needs to be to attempt to tunnel them, AND they have to only run three perks for the rest of the game. Is that not a very clear-cut example of something heavily favouring one side?
-
@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3925875#Comment_3925875
no way you just said tunneling has very little counterplay… you silly billy why would you think that…
That shouldn't really be a controversial statement, honestly.
What counterplay do YOU have, specifically, to tunnelling? Specifically I'm talking about solo queue survivors, what do they have access to, reliably, to beat tunnelling?