jesterkind
jesterkind
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951864#Comment_3951864
So what you're saying is, "Trapper can go eff himself."
You're right. Trapper got a 5% haste for 5 whole seconds after he stands still for 2 seconds. Awesome buff! Really, just makes the whole killer worth it, you know? Basement? Who needs it? Just stand still for 2 seconds mid chase and get the smallest haste buff you can imagine.
And the invincible survivor can just run all over Hag's web and destroy as many traps as they can with Hag being unable to do anything about it. Just amazing game design.
No, I'm saying Trapper needs more than just letting him tunnel after a basement hook.
The buffs he gets not being gigantic don't invalidate them existing, and they helped more than you might think. Remember, they also adjusted his trap spawn logic, and that was the biggest spike in power he'd had in years, it was pretty damn nice.
As for Hag, how far can they get in ten seconds…? A survivor can already destroy some of Hag's traps while she's indisposed, too, that's just how Hag works. Should that be the case? Eh, I'm not a Hag main. It is how she is now, though.
If this is really a big deal, though, those killers can be pre-emptively changed on the same PTB as these changes. It's not a hard wall, it's just something else to keep in mind.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951853#Comment_3951853
Please.
That would kill Trapper and you know it. The whole thing about the basement with Trapper is that you run the risk of getting two or more people trapped in the basement. Being able to run in for what would at best be a trade is BS and you know it. It would nerf the game's weakest killer considerably.
And they would NEVER buff him. He's been the game's weakest character for a decade, and they still never buff him. What about Hag? Would the invincible survivor set off Hag traps? Old DH for Distance did. How much are you willing to gut the game's weakest killers?
Honestly? Maybe. Maybe this would make Trapper just not worth it anymore. I suspect it probably wouldn't, but who knows, it might.
That doesn't make it good for the game for him to be able to win just based on a basement hook and a bit of RNG. It's still better for the game to remove it, and then for Trapper to be buffed elsewhere.
As an aside, Trapper does get buffed. Not very often and not by huge increments but it does happen.
As for Hag, it probably wouldn't be problematic for those traps to still get tripped, if that's how the code works out. She still can't hit them. Hag needs this less than Trapper too, she's on the weaker end but she's not a one-trick-pony like that.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951851#Comment_3951851
What about Trapper? Does the unhooked survivor just get to walk out of the basement for free? Do they set off traps, but not get caught, or do they float over them like old DH?
It's no collision and there's no reason Trapper's power should get special treatment. They'd walk over the traps and not trip them.
Now, I am no fan of Basement Trapper and I'd love to see that weakened so he can be buffed properly elsewhere, but lest you think this makes basement useless for Trapper, I'll remind you the person who unhooked them still has collision, both going into and coming out of the basement. Two opportunities to trap them still remain.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951845#Comment_3951845
Is it really, though? Intangibility for every survivor off hook for how long, exactly? How long should survivors be allowed to just be… invincible? When does it turn off? What about end game? Are we back to the days of "unhook = free escape?"
There's no reason to assume these questions don't have answers. For example:
How long? I have two answers. A while back I suggested it last ten seconds by default, but the timer gets paused for an additional ten seconds if you actually get chased, but if that's too complicated somewhere between ten and fifteen seconds would work.
When does it turn off? In addition to the timer running out, also when survivors perform Conspicuous Actions, which I would amend to also include any successful saves.
What about end game? Probably disabled, or replaced with a shorter period of Endurance just to ensure you can't be downed the second your feet touch the floor. This would need to be tested the most, I think.
You could've started out by asking these things in good faith, and I'd have answered.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951838#Comment_3951838
I have literally never seen you post a killer sided take one time.
Well, two things to be said about that. The first is that this is a killer sided take, since I want anti-tunnel that cannot be abused, and the second is that I attempt to be measured and unbiased as much as possible.
Also, y'know, you haven't been here that long. I've made a lot of posts.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951784#Comment_3951784
"Hello, fellow killer players."
Genuinely, I would advise not assuming people who simply disagree with you must be lying about their true allegiances. It kinda just makes you look silly.
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@TheGoone said:
What else can they do? we got endurance, DS for a second chance, faster movespeed. What next just straight up invincibility???
If that's balanced properly, it'd be beneficial to everyone.
For instance, if a survivor gained intangibility instead of Endurance, you'd no longer have to deal with bodyblocking. You "lose" a tactic that it's generally a bad idea to rely on anyway, and in exchange, a really annoying survivor tactic is removed as well. Good trade as far as I'm concerned, as a killer player myself.
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Oh yeah, that post.
Either or. Fifteen ish seconds that doesn't change, or ten seconds that is increased by ten seconds if they're actually chased. They don't work out to be substantially different really, but the latter would make it much harder for someone to get in position for a pallet save when the killer's flat out ignoring them, hence me suggesting it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950948#Comment_3950948
The zero collision doesn’t need to last longer than the 10 second period after being unhooked.
10 seconds is long enough for a survivor to escape the basement, when the killer is trying to bodyblock the survivor on the basement stairs.
Sure, that's probably a good number. I could see it being up to about five seconds longer than that just to be sure, but that's probably where we'd be looking. Though, it's not just the killer bodyblocking the survivors we'd be trying to avoid, it'd be survivors trying to bodyblock the killers too.
…Were you under the impression I was suggesting it'd be substantially longer or something?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950915#Comment_3950915
The killer doesn’t always have sight and sound of the teammate. If the teammate breaks line of sight, then someone else can purposely run around the area to leave distracting scratchmarks.
This is a stretch, in my opinion. Even if this actually happens and you actually lose the survivor you're chasing, the survivor trying to distract you isn't going to have intangibility forever.
I just don't see a world where this could possibly be a consistent issue.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950878#Comment_3950878
Are you literally saying that when a survivor is running around, purposely leaving distracting scratchmarks, to hide where their teammate is…. that it doesn’t count as distracting? For real???
….Yes?
I mean, it doesn't actually hide where their teammate is. You're still chasing that teammate, you still have sight and sound to track them with. Why would that be super distracting?
It's literally the same as when someone follows you around to try and get in position for a bodyblock, until such time as they actually do it they're a mild distraction that has no real bearing on the game.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950648#Comment_3950648
Intents are important, because if the survivor intends to distract or hinder the killer from chasing someone else, then they aren’t being tunneled.
If a survivor gets extra anti-tunneling protections, that allow them to get a pallet save, then you literally made the game worse, because you just made it easier to weaponize anti-tunneling.
At most, anti-tunneling should just remove collision for the normal duration of post-unhook haste, and still allow the killer to attack them. That would stop killers from bodyblocking survivors on basement stairs, which would be a buff to survivors, without allowing the survivors to weaponize the buff.
Right, but if they INTEND to distract or hinder the killer and can't ACTUALLY distract or hinder the killer, then the intent doesn't matter. That's the case with them just running around nearby or throwing pallets willy-nilly. Maybe that'd be suitably distracting for some players, but not overall, and it doesn't hinder the chase in any way shape or form.
Getting a pallet save is a wholly different issue, and one I think should be kept in mind. Once you've taken item use out of the equation it's the one remaining potential problem. That's just not what we started with here, we started with survivors running around nearby to try and distract the killer, which is decidedly not a problem.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950739#Comment_3950739
If someone is immune to being attacked, they could legit just follow the chase. Person on the ground recovers, then toss the pallet and finish healing that last smidgen.
Why would someone who can't be hit need to be able to toss a pallet to begin with?
Well, that's sort of what I was just thinking. The simplest way of dealing with this is just to stop them being able to interact with pallets. It's a little clumsy, but it would work.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950648#Comment_3950648
It probably wouldn't be a good idea for a survivor who can't be chased away to be free to go for pallet saves... that would be kinda unfair.
That's the one concern I could see, is pallet saves. It's the one wrench in the works, but I do think you could design around it somehow.
One thing to remember is that being in position for a pallet save isn't guaranteed, at least. Still, something to think about.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950169#Comment_3950169
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SZH8KEHY4XSJ/image.png
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950196#Comment_3950196
No, the logic doesn't go both ways.
In the very specific games where the survivor is faster than the killer, they can just weave through the killer's model to block vision like in the above screenshot.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950189#Comment_3950189
I don't care if you only think it's "mildly distracting". If a survivor is purposely trying to distract and hinder a killer from chasing someone else, then they aren't being tunneled, and they should have their anti-tunnel perks deactivated.
Survivors should not be encouraged to weaponize their anti-tunnel perks and mechanics. Causing survivors to lose collision, still allows them to distract and hinder the killer from chasing someone else.
I mean, why, though?
If they're running away from you, they're also not being tunnelled, but you'd expect their anti-tunnel to still be on its timer until they actually engage with the game.
Why should their anti-tunnel disable if they're not actually having any effect or influence on the game…? You wouldn't even necessarily be able to then tunnel them if all they're doing is running around near-ish to you. It kinda sounds arbitrary, like you're more interested in punishing annoying intents than in what's actually happening in the match.
I would agree, for instance, that successfully getting a pallet save/flashlight save should cancel any remaining anti-tunnel they have left, like Off The Record and such, because at that point they're back in the action. If they're just sort of running around nearby (in this context not even able to click their flashlight)… they're not doing anything. There's no impact.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950208#Comment_3950208
Ok. So if we're going to eliminate "killer advantage in chase," then we should eliminate survivor advantage in chase as well, right? No more God pallets, no more exhaustion perks, every tile is a 50/50. That's fair, right?
Sometimes in life, you play at a disadvantage. Adapt and overcome. Or don't, and Behavior will come hold your wittle hand.
I don't think there's much point in continuing this conversation at this point. Fair enough, man, have a nice day.
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I'm currently pretty hard-of-hearing myself with some temporary hearing issues in both ears, and I'm finding the visual terror radius pretty damn useful for its intended purpose.
You're right that I'm struggling with skill checks more, but that's just a different accessibility thing this game doesn't have, nothing more.
Honestly, I've always found the argument that non-hard of hearing people get an advantage from the visual terror radius kinda overblown. It's really very minor.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950194#Comment_3950194
So it's literally, "I didn't have a chance to start chase fully healed at a strong loop."
No, it's the opposite extreme.
When you're targeted post-unhook, you aren't even starting the chase neutrally. You're starting the chase with a huge advantage given to the killer, because you're right on top of them and already injured. That's why the post-unhook Endurance exists, too, so you at least get to have that chase even if it's extremely stacked in the killer's favour; before, you were just downed, no chase required.
Now, the killer getting a chase like that isn't inherently broken if they did something to engineer it, like successfully sneaking up on someone. In this case, though, all the killer did was… be near the hook when the unhook happened. For some killers they don't even have to be that close, with the right kind of mobility.
Even when the killer sneaks up on you as survivor, you often have agency of some kind- hell, you could've seen or heard the killer coming, so at least when you're just smacked out of nowhere it could fairly be considered your mistake. Here, the killer chose to target you when you were animation locked and had no way to avoid it, and gets an easy chase for free. There's no trick you can pull to undo the advantage, you just have to outplay them to a disproportionate degree, in general, for no cost or expectation on their end.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950170#Comment_3950170
Call it whatever you want, it doesn't matter. Survivor Two in your scenario had a chance to "play the game." Isn't that the complaint about tunneling? "It feels bad to load into a match and just get hooked and never have a chance to play the game!" That's the only argument against it.
Survivor Two got some gens in, got some heals in, and got to play the game. Apparently, that's not good enough. So what's the time limit? How long must a survivor be unhooked for in order to be "fair game" again? Five minutes? At least one gen? What's the arbitrary number?
No, what you're really complaining about is that your chases came when you were in a weakened position instead of a ten second head start into God pallets and main building into about 30 seconds of shift+W. You're outing yourself.
Complaints about not getting to play the game are hyperbole and shouldn't be taken 100% literally in my opinion, but even outside of that, the reason that complaint is made is because of how little agency you have while being tunnelled, not because you're the first person to die/you died too early.
When the killer chooses to target you off-hook in this hypothetical, you still don't have that much agency. Outside of perks, your ability to fight back is extremely limited, which means those perks become must-runs or you risk getting your agency taken away in any given match. It's not great for the game.
It's a good example here of why generally speaking it's a good idea to decouple discussions of game problems from the specific way those problems are commonly complained about, imo. Better to focus on the problem than the complaint.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950137#Comment_3950137
No. Because it still means the survivor can run in front of the killer, try to make confusing scratchmarks or noises, drop pallets to make pallet saves, an just do flashlight saves after the collision is back to normal.
And survivors can still block line of sight from the killer, even when the character models aren’t overlapping. For example, if the killer is chasing survivor A, and survivor A vaults a window, if survivor B stands in front of the window, then the killer might not be able to see which direction survivor A went.
And it doesn’t address the fact that if a survivor is purposely trying to hinder the killer from chasing someone else, they aren’t being tunneled, and therefore all their anti-tunnel perks should deactivate.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950114#Comment_3950114
That isn’t true during the post-hook haste, especially if perks like babysitter are being used.
I think those are a bit of a stretch, honestly. Outside of maybe pallet saves and the window thing once in a thousand games, I don't think any of those things would really be a problem.
It also does address that last part by virtue of making it so they can't hinder the killer from chasing someone else. They can be mildly distracting but they can't actually get in the way anymore.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950143#Comment_3950143
I'm still confused. Was there something changed about the skill checks before 2021 that people are referring to here?
The joke is "missing" skillchecks as in "not succeeding them", not as in them changing at all.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950155#Comment_3950155
"IF you die on hook 6, you can definitely still be tunneled.
Survivor One: Hook 1, 2 and 3.
Survivor Two: Hook 4, 5 and 6."
Survivor two wasn't tunneled.
Genuinely, how is that not tunnelling? They were hooked three times consecutively, which strongly implies the killer chased them after unhook, which is pretty clearly tunnelling by most definitions.
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@Zuiphrode said:
The thing that annoys me is that you literally can't even control tunnelling sometimes. Like if the surv who was just unhooked sometimes crosses your path randomly a short time afterwards. And killers need to be allowed to punish if the survs go for an unhook while he's still in the area.
To be fair, you'd punish that by chasing the unhooker, who starts the chase right next to you- and even injured if you can hit them while they're getting the unhook.
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@MarbleThrone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950138#Comment_3950138
I guess my joke didn't land 😓.
@Brokenbones said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950138#Comment_3950138
What do you call a Skillcheck that you don't hit
I am so dumb lol
My bad
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@MarbleThrone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950093#Comment_3950093
I mean that the thing I miss the most are skillchecks. On gens and heals alike.
I'm not sure I'm following. Skillchecks still exist on those actions…?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950108#Comment_3950108
That won’t work, because survivors could purposely overlap with the killer, and block their vision.
That's a much easier problem to fix than wrestling spaghetti code for detecting the difference between intentional and unintentional bodyblocks, surely?
Make it so the survivor's model goes invisible if it overlaps, and also just to mention it here, make it so survivors can't use items so there's no unstoppable flashlight saves, and you've covered 95% of possible issues already.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950010#Comment_3950010
- If a killer is following survivor A, and survivor B repeatedly changes directions to get in between the killer and survivor A, then survivor B is intentionally bodyblocking
- To expand on this, the game could detect if the killer is clearly trying to go around another survivor. As in, if the killer repeatedly changes direction to move away from survivor A, but survivor A repeatedly changes direction to be in front of the killer, then survivor A is clearly intentionally bodyblocking
- Also, if survivor B is in a choke point, and stops moving even though the killer is running in that direction, then survivor A is clearly intentionally bodyblocking. The important factor is the survivor is positioned in a way that prevents the killer from traveling in that direction, which means that standing in front of a window also counts as standing in a choke point.
- As an extra note for point #4, the survivor should still be considered as intentionally bodyblocking, even if they are tapping the direction buttons (or slowly moving near the same spot), because they are still preventing the killer from traveling through that checkpoint.
I can see the vision here, but I also think this would be really difficult to implement and has way too high a chance of backfiring.
Wouldn't it be simpler to just take away the survivor's ability to bodyblock entirely, by having them lose collision? That seems like a safer and easier to implement/balance solution to me.
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@MarbleThrone said:
Honestly?
Skillchecks.What do you mean by this? Genuinely curious. Where in the game were skillchecks removed?
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949703#Comment_3949703
My point is that most of the changes were literally fractions of a second. One free stack of STBFL isn't some massive buff. It's a buff, and made killer feel better, but it's not absolutely game changing.
To be fair, the survivor getting noticeably less distance on hit kinda was game changing. That was a crazy good buff that killers got.
That and the death of Dead Hard alone were enough for the patch to be very impactful for killer.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949685#Comment_3949685
well you said you need to be rotating people onto the hook so obviously my caveman brain immediately jumped to the silly conclusion that you need quick chases to do that but clearly I am mistaken
If you'd read a little further, you'd see me saying that the rotation can have gaps between the save and the next hook, as long as they aren't tremendously far apart.
Occupying multiple survivors slows down generator repair, which gives you more time to occupy survivors again, which slows the generators down again. It's a loop.
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949662#Comment_3949662
so you need 20 second chases
You can see quite plainly I said the opposite of that in my post, friend.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949377#Comment_3949377
But that's only true for killers that can end another chase by the time the survivor on hook has been rescued and healed. So… A tier killers or better.
It's not, no.
You don't need to always have someone on the hook, you just need to be rotating people on the hook to harry survivors away from consistent gen repair. Faster chases are generally better within that framework, but as long as there isn't too much downtime between the save/heal and the next hook, you're still doing fine.
Doing it this way makes the generators take longer, so by the same token you have more time to get the next hook to get yourself more time, etc etc.
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@CLHL said:
In the past they have already increased tunneling many times by implementing systems that penalize the killer without thinking about the consequences. They will do the same thing again, and as expected the consequences will be dire. Slugging is likely to become meta again, and when it gets adressed too, killers won't stop wanting to win by any means necessary. Because telling killers not to be efficient is like asking them to give up.
Out of curiosity, how would you go about dealing with the problematic strategies of tunnelling and excessive slugging while encouraging killers to actually play efficient by spreading pressure?
It's a tricky situation to fix in my view because the pieces are already there. You can't blanket buff killers because their tools and the benefits from using those tools are already good- how do you push players towards using them in addition to nerfing the egregious stuff? It's not a problem I know how to solve personally.
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I'm not sure what I think they're going to do, but I know what I hope they're going to do.
I hope that they change post-unhook Endurance to a loss of collision and balance around that. It'd be so much healthier and a fair bit more effective.
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@imabakedpot8o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949457#Comment_3949457
Everyone doesn't need a mic, if they do, get one, they're cheap as chips these days.
If you dont feel comfortable communicating with strangers why are you playing a multiplayer game?
Every doesn't speak 1 language in every other game and everyone does just fine.
If someone wants to mute someone that is entirely their decision.
if someone is toxic, again the mute option is always there and accessible.
None of these are good enough reasons unfortunately.
So, rapid fire a few unavoidable ones that there's no discussion on - not everyone can afford a mic and nor should they be expected to, speaking to strangers is not CURRENTLY a requirement for THIS multiplayer game, and if you mute someone the voice comms are now no longer doing their job of exchanging information you need. There's nothing to say one way or another on these points, so I'll move on.
The main thing I want to point out is this invoking of "other games". As I already laid out, in other games, it's not voice comms that overcome the language barrier. Those games "do just fine" because of everything else they do to facilitate information.
The language barrier was a big problem back when I played Overwatch, approximately one thousand years ago when that game was newer. It was extremely common for the lobby to contain multiple people who did not speak the same language as me, and in many cases even as each other. However, in Overwatch, the following things are also true:
- You can see your teammates' position at all times, through walls
- You can bring up your teammates' health and ultimate charge with the press of a button
- You can use a quick-comm ping wheel that doesn't rely on sharing a language to work
- You can rely on your characters' passive voice lines to call out important information (EG, "there's a sniper", as the biggest example)
- You can look at the killfeed to get an idea of what's happening
In cases where you can communicate through voice comms, that's obviously stronger. In the extremely common outcome that you can't, Overwatch had a whole suite of carefully designed mechanics to ensure you were still capable of coordinating with any teammate that's actually paying attention and who wants to coordinate with you.
Now, how does DBD stack up compared to Overwatch here? Not as bad as it used to, but the basekit mechanics here are much, much slimmer.
I'm not saying there should be one-to-one equivalents of everything I listed for Overwatch - constant aura, for instance, would be way too strong in this game - but the basic premise of "if you can't communicate via actually talking to your teammates, you should still be able to coordinate with them" does not apply here, and it should.
The game's taken steps in this direction with things like the action HUD and adding some aura/other tell to a few perks, but they need to keep walking that path to fix this problem. Hypothetically, voice comms could be a nice bonus afterwards, but they're not a substitute.
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Adding voice chat doesn't solve any of those problems. Even in the other games that have voice comms, they aren't the thing that facilitate communication, the systems underneath voice comms that provide passive and active information to players are what facilitate communication.
In order for voice comms to fix the issues stemming from lack of communication in a given match, the following bullet points must be true:
- Everyone in the match must own a microphone
- Everyone in the match must feel comfortable speaking into that microphone to strangers
- Everyone in the match must speak the same language
- Nobody in the match can have serious noise pollution that would require them being muted
- Nobody in the match can be toxic or just broadly irritating enough to warrant them being muted
If ANY of those bullet point requirements aren't met, voice comms don't allow you to communicate with your team. It's just not how things work- too many people think voice comms are what separate solo queue from SWF, when just having an active mic connection to three other random people doesn't guarantee literally anything, let alone genuine noticeable improvements to communication and strategy.
This game should work on better information gain and communication options where possible, but voice comms isn't it.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949377#Comment_3949377
you are describing current dbd. dbd where matchmaking doesnt work to eliminate skill gaps properly. where boosted players are a default state of things. where the game is attempted to be balanced around an idea that survivors are bad and killers arent.
see, here's where this stops working when we eliminate the "major skill gap" factor.
survivors can be already at the hook stealthing. if I dont proxy camp, I get instapull and they double the gen where I just left. Or spread around on other gens.
survivors can have healing perks so they dont spend time resetting under hook and giving me pressure. That is a massive issue in itself btw, we are somehow trying to have the game balanced around no tunnelling but then we have obscene amount of ways to eliminate all other kinds of pressure killer can hope to get.
then I have to FIND another survivor, spend time walking there and win another full chase while by the time I even get to that point on most killers two supposedly pressured survivors are already back on gens. Or I can just proxy hook, especially if it's near a nearly done gen and wait for the pull to trade / tunnel and not risk losing gen while im busy chasing people on gens I am not keeping anyway.
and that assuming I do it without missing a beat, consistently find a survivor, consistently win a chase and do it fast enough to keep up. Every time. Anytime I fail, boop, game over, you lost, git gut. It takes disproportionate amount of effort and consistency to do compared to just doing gens and playing chases whenever killer finds you.
Yeah, I would guess on someone like blight most people could do that when they learn him, but I think you dont want to make a case that only blight-like S tiers should be viable for an average player. Right now people can still play blight and get easy wins but people can also play way worse killers and stand a chance against survivors of their skill level because they have leverages like tunnelling or other macro pressure strategies to snowball the match off their mistakes.
and there are many such cases. "just playing for chases" is not viable to win games on equal skill level. that is the whole premise you dont consider. macro pressure and snowballing is essential to the game and tunnelling is part of it.
the fact that it takes disproportionate amount of skill to counter is a wild statement. it doesnt. you counter tunnelling by either bringing perks that autopilot it for you and/or by not instapulling and staying where killer can easily find you. That is what I was talking about as well when I talked about boosted survivors.
It doesnt take much thought to tunnel and it doesnt take much thought to counter it either. You dont insta unhook and trade in last 10 seconds and use all that time survivor spends on hook to do gens.
If you constantly get into matches where killers are good enough to tunnel through all the mechanics devs added and you or your team are unable to implement these strategies that require basic common sense, maybe you should ask yourself if you or your teammates actually belong in that lobby or if you actually deserve to win.
so yeah, as I said, I dont mind anti tunnelling and other anti mechanics. If we werent changing matchmaking to get rid of the skill difference in lobbies. Sooo yeah. Pick one.
I'm gonna format my post with some numbered bullet points just for ease of understanding, I know that can look fairly aggressive sometimes so I'm trying to soften that ahead of time lol. Leaping in-
1: I am describing current DBD, but not for the reasons you're saying. It's not an expectation that survivors will be bad, because survivors don't need to be bad for the basic fundamentals to work against them. Sure, it's a lot easier if they're bad, but that's not what either of us are talking about here.
2: If survivors are near enough the hook to instasave… they weren't on generators. It can be annoying, sure, but it comes with an upside from the killer perspective. Adapting to how your opponents play is important, but you can also minimise this risk a lot with the next bullet point.
3: If you find that you have to spend a lot of time searching for survivors and that you're often wasting time doing so, that's a flaw in your gameplan. That's not an insult- that's advice. On top of making a point to try and keep where survivors are in your head at any given moment, there's a wealth of information perks you can bring that bolster your gameplan considerably in this area, depending on your killer.
There's no shame in using them. In the current state of the game I'd honestly argue they're stronger overall than slowdown perks.
Ideally, you should know where you're going ahead of time. That's hard to do consistently, but it's part of getting better at killer.
3a: You also don't lose instantly if you flub one instance of spreading pressure, the game's not that tightly balanced. It can make things much harder depending on context, but it's exceptionally rare that it'll lose you the game outright.
4: This works on every killer, it isn't S-tier specific. It's just how this game works. I also want to make a point that this is not "just playing for chases"— people in discussions like these have a common habit, I've noticed, of acting like not tunnelling is equivalent to playing aimlessly or directionlessly, and that's not the case. There's a clear and important intent behind this principle and it's pretty malleable to all kinds of strategies and playstyles.
5: On the topic of countering tunnelling, you're falling into a rhetorical trap I've seen a few others fall into. You're not wrong that you can counter the killer tunnelling your teammate that way, but if you're in solo queue and the killer's tunnelling you, it takes considerable skill and preparation (which, for the record, is what I meant when you say bringing perks, that's preparation) to counter because the killer gets a much easier chase for free.
The fact that tunnelling can be somewhat reasonably countered if you're in a full team means the state of things is better than before (when not bringing one specific perk meant tunnelling had absolutely zero counterplay), but because of how free and without any kind of drawback or setup tunnelling is for the killer, it's going to be unbalanced until the individual being tunnelled is also capable of countering it.
6: I feel I should mention this but all of this is from the killer perspective, not the survivor perspective. I do play both, but when I talk about the game's fundamentals for killer, it's from the killer perspective.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949384#Comment_3949384
Just a quick note, there actually is a score event for every player in the match if someone DCes.
There is? I genuinely didn't know that.
You see my overall point regardless though, I hope.
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@Mr_K said:
If the SBMM system worked then the match should be tough. It shouldn't be a cake walk for either side. If you are asking to be rewarded for not giving up then the answer is no. To reward for that is to imply we accept players giving up as normal and those that continue on as exceptional. No, continuing on even when losing is baseline expectation. You are rewarded for overcoming hardship not enduring it.
While that's definitely true (and probably most relevant to what it seems OP meant), I think there's also situations where encouraging people to stick it out is potentially appropriate.
For instance, if you got some extra BP for being camped (defined as the bar filling up past say 25%), whether you'd agree or disagree with that specific situation, I think it's fair to say that is sticking out a difficult match above the baseline expectation.
Same with, say, someone DCing early. That's a more difficult match, in a very annoying way, and encouraging people to stick it out with an extra reward is at least worth discussion.
I'm not sure where I'd fall on that myself, for the record, but I see where the conversation could be had.
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@SpringMyTrap said:
let's put it the other way: tunnelling (and by extension camping, slugging, any other macro strategy) is the only way to win against roughly equally skilled opponents because the game's math is not supposed to give killer TIME for 6+ normal chases when FOUR PEOPLE are ALIVE and THREE can constantly do gens.
obviously you can stomp bad and most importantly MUCH WORSE players without resorting to strategies to optimize pressure because every chase is a 2 tap while they don't do 3 gens at once and just waste time.
you cant do that when this isnt the case and it's very clear from what we've heard from the developers they are going to change MMR system to accomplish exactly that.
I dont mind when people handicap themselves or ask developers to handicap other players when the game BY DESIGN puts them against WEAKER opponents so they can have Fun™.
And if we are doing that nonetheless, then where are same limits for survivors that get carried beyond their skill level? we shouldnt act like killers are the only ones, according to Mandy, who get "carried by abusing strategies". Survivors do that as well. If we act like you need to be "Good™" in chase that should also apply to survivors.
Safe trading resources while splitting gens because the game's math allows a free win anytime you do that against a fair play killer is not being "Good™" at the game.
I dont mind things either way, but I would like less hypocrisy in here.
The game's maths assume that the killer is taking actions that stop all three survivors from being on generators at once.
Yes, at the start you have nothing to stop them, but as soon as you get your first hook, the amount of survivors doing gens at once will shift unless you just stick by that hook and do nothing.
Tunnelling is not the only way to win. It's the easiest, because it requires the least skill to perform and a massively disproportionate amount of skill (+ preparation ahead of time in most cases) to beat, but it's not the only way to win.
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I'm tentatively inclined to agree. It's a very scary buff on paper, but in practice it doesn't really change that much— practically speaking, there's basically two new options available to survivors with this change: Using medkits you find in chests, and being able to get two heals from a medkit via the actual healing action instead of one healing action and one syringe.
The first doesn't really matter that much, they still spent the time opening the chest so it's not really a net gain, and the second is almost kinda worse in a lot of ways so I don't see that being a problem either.
Really, it does seem like more of a basic consistency buff than a real leap in power, but I could be wrong. It'll need to be monitored for sure.
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I don't think there's much of a contradiction here, since those first two statements shown were about a basekit mechanic and Haywire is a perk, not a basekit mechanic.
There are a lot of effects that wouldn't be appropriate as a basekit mechanic in every single trial, but are appropriate as options players can bring at the cost of one of their limited perk slots.
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940129#Comment_3940129
Nice straw man. Why are you acting like Freddy doesn't have the tools I am talking about. He has both a mobility power and an anti-loop chase power. That is more than what Trapper, Skull Merchant, Legion, and Pig have.
JCGlitchmaster did a video where he showed that you can have a chase that lasts under 30 seconds after finding that survivor in under 30 seconds, hook that person on a pain resonance hook and immediately pressure the gen in question and it can be at 80% complete still. Do you not see how little room that gives a killer for anything? Like if it takes you just a little bit longer to find someone or just a little bit longer to down them you lose that gen. And you will probably just say "well just get better at chasing" but there is only so much that being good at chasing can get you as an m1 killer on a map full of resources for the survivors to use.
Try playing a killer with no map mobility or strong chase power against good survivors on a large map with lots of pallets. Until then you don't get to tell me that we already have the tools to deal with this.An important thing to remember is that gen speeds aren't equal across gens.
What I mean by this is, the first gen gets finished much quicker than the last gen, because you don't have any pressure to stop the first gen but you should, in most regular games, have a lot of pressure to slow down the last one. It's completely normal and even expected that the first gen will be close to finished after your first chase, it wouldn't make any sense for it not to be.
It's the other gens that go by slower, in part because your first chase gives you a hook which is your springboard for dragging survivors off gens to do something else.
TL;DR: don't obsess over the first gen. It doesn't matter all that much and stopping it from being completed really isn't feasible. The killer is a snowball; you build up momentum as the match goes.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3938015#Comment_3938015
you'd have to dumpster gen speed and have survivors focus on a second objective but as we've seen with the recent blood moon when the devs try to make it "fair" with killer power/abilities not working on it the game becomes the top tiers running around and survivors rushing gens
As in, they'd have to do this in order to make not tunnelling viable?
If so, hard disagree. The game's already practically there, the stuff remaining that gets in the way is very specific and not particularly holistic.
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I don't think regression is in that bad of a spot. Especially if we're talking about slowdown in general, I think that's honestly in a relatively good spot overall, with specific perks that fall short of their potential.
What I think we are moving away from is the notion that slowdown perks can REPLACE basekit slowdown as your primary means of gaining more time. It does seem now like the basic expectation is that the killer's going to be making the game slower through their own gameplay, and the slowdown that exists will support that.
It's not as though there aren't good perks within that framework. Pain Res, Grim Embrace, Deadlock, even stuff like Eruption and Surge are very solid in their respective niches. We've got good stuff available, you just have to be using it to boost the slowdown you've already got instead of creating new slowdown all on their own.
I would be very in favour of weakening perk stacking to safely buff the underwhelming gen slowdown perks, though. That'd be very healthy from a variety of angles.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939489#Comment_3939489
Tunnelling is a very good way of turning losing matches around, because it provides huge value for little effort and often little risk.I think it's the opposite of this, though, like everything with tunneling, it depends on your definition.
People like to justify tunneling based on - 'if I hit a 4 person SWF and 3 gens pop on the first chase, what else am I supposed to do!?'
Except if true, tunneling is the worst thing you can do now. If its truly a 4 person SWF playing just to win, they're going to ignore the person on hook until its safe (unless they have anti-tunnel perks). They're going to just do the gens, open the gates, then maybe try a rescue if they care about the 4e.
One of the reasons I think they need to look at tunneling isn't that killers can use it to comeback, its that when a killer already outmatches the survivors they can turn a winning match into a boring stomp.
I don't actually disagree with that, but it doesn't contradict what I'm saying there either. When I say often little risk, that's the risk I'm referring to- the only risk you're taking on is that the team you're facing is a properly coordinated 4-man SWF that know what to do about tunnelling killers + were prepared for it.
If any of those criteria aren't met, there's extremely little risk to trying to tunnel someone out. It not working as well (but still being worth it sometimes) against a small percentage of the playerbase doesn't stop it from being a very powerful, very consistent tactic, y'know?
People say they're facing a 4-man SWF that pops 3 gens in the first chase consistently, but it's realistically more probably just decent solo queue players, or a smaller group + solos.
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@redhat74 said:
I'm a killer main who 99% plays survivor and 1% killer.
When I play I totally destroy the survivors and don't need to tunnel
All other killer mains should do the same, also consider having a meme game like me.
Now remember to be a good killer main you have to not tunnel, not camp, last survivor always gets hatch and meme around.
*this is sarcasm, simply play how you wish to play your video game you purchased
I gotta make one of those "don't make me tap the sign" memes, I think.
"This is advice for long term results, not complaining about bad behaviour" or some such.
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@Marzipan210 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3937557#Comment_3937557
And what is the killer supposed to do other than tunnel when gens pop too fast? The best way to stop gens from popping is to remove a survivor from play. It is better slowdown than all the slowdown perks combined. Like you are coming at this from the perspective that every killer can get into chase quickly get a down quickly and get into the next chase quickly but that isn't the case at all. Most just don't have the mobility for that and fewer have the chase potential for that.
Like as a survivor you want to spread hook states out because it gives your team more time to get the gens done and get everyone out. How would playing into that at all benefit the killer?Your job as killer is to prevent the gens from popping too fast. Sometimes that's out of your control - though the devs are even doing something to fix situations outside of your control in this upcoming patch, which shouldn't be left unsaid here - but for the most part it's up to you to play well and occupy the survivors so they're not able to pop gens super fast.
Tunnelling is a very good way of turning losing matches around, because it provides huge value for little effort and often little risk. It's the definition of a crutch, and if you care about your longterm results or getting better at the game, my personal recommendation is not to rely on it.
I'm not saying this is equally easy across the cast. I will say every killer can perform and only two really even struggle to engage with the game on a basic level, but there are definitely some picks where keeping the pressure looped is harder. I'd be in support of buffing those killers and nerfing the particularly egregious stuff on the survivor side they struggle with, absolutely. They just don't have to resort to tunnelling.
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I strongly disagree, I feel Machine Learning is a pretty powerful perk now.
All you really need to do is not bring other gen-kick perks in order to use it efficiently, too. Unless you're the type to kick generators for the sake of kicking generators, I suppose, but that's pretty suboptimal itself.
My experience using Machine Learning is to identify which generator is being pushed hardest, kick that one whenever I go over to pressure the survivors away, then play as normal until it pops. ML isn't a perk you can set your watch by in terms of reliability, but you can reliably get two to three activations by being simply on the ball, even if you can't control the exact second the buffs activate.
Another underrated use of Machine Learning in particular (this'll apply less to Help Wanted even if it gets the buffs I think it should) is that it's a pseudo-endgame perk. When the last generator is completed, the other two count as "completed" too, meaning ML is guaranteed to activate on the last generator- and if you pair it with something like NOED you've got a scary comeback combo.
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@Marzipan210 said:
I'm sorry but this is like telling survivors that trying to get generators done quickly is against their best interests. Tunneling, camping, and gen rushing are all the same thing. They are just examples of trying to get your objectives done as quickly as possible.
If survivors were leveraging an imbalance that builds bad habits, it would be against their best interests.
The specifics of how these things function is relevant. If survivors rely on what I'd call genrushing - stacked toolboxes with accompanying perks - then I'd say yeah, they're probably on borrowed time there, pun not intended. BHVR have been ramping up taking care of imbalances like that, toolboxes are inevitably going to get some kind of changes sometime.
If survivors are just splitting up and being generally efficient on generators, though, that's not as clear of an imbalance and there's no reason to assume it'll get dedicated changes (outside of the one on this PTB, anyway, that was always the outlier here). There's no reason that would apply to this logic.
Same for killer, by the way. If you're just efficiently playing your objective by juggling survivors and spreading pressure, there's no reason to assume that's going to stop working for you. If you tunnel someone out as your main tactic, you're both going to build bad habits and become reliant on that tactic, and also be left twisting in the wind when tunnelling gets nerfed.